The Most Powerful Way To Deal with Toxic People | Jefferson Fisher

Now, I'm not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist. You know this. I'm a trial attorney. That means I talk to a lot of people, usually in some of the most intense situations you can think of. Cross-examination is one of those. I can't think of anything that is more adversarial in a controlled way where people do not want to answer me. They don't want to respond, but they're required to under oath because they've done something where somebody is now calling them to the mat. They are now being held They are now being held accountable for whatever they've done or they've said. So they don't typically want to talk to me. It's my job to ask questions in a way that is going to get facts, apply law to it, and advocate for my client. One of those personalities that I see often are narcissists, and I say that as a general term of people who exhibit a strong, a pattern of narcissistic behavior. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about. These are people that if I were to say narcissist to you right now, you could close your eyes and think of one person. You go, this is a narcissist. Somebody who always puts it to make it about themselves, always plays the victim, never takes accountability, has this inability to have empathy or sympathy or accountability for really anything. We're going to talk about that right now. You ready? Number 1, there's a mindset that I want you to have when you're dealing with people who exhibit these narcissistic behaviors. And it is a game. That's the mindset that you are playing a game. And it's a game that I call praise or provoke. Meaning if I'm not showering these people with praise, oh, how great they are, how wonderful they are, how credible they are. If I'm not reading everything else on their resume and just blasting and gassing these people up, well, they will turn to provoke an argument with me to try and create conflict where there is none. Why? To get that same level of satisfaction. They want to create a problem. They want to get me emotionally stimulated to where I am getting aggravated and upset. You know this, you can relate to this. If you're not showering that person you're thinking of with praise, they will turn to provoke and start a problem with you because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise, because it's all about control. It's all about control. Let me tell you about this game. This is a game you cannot win. It's not— it's to be clear, it is not because of you. It's not that you're not a winner. You haven't failed. You're not a loser. It is a game that is set up to fail. Have you ever played one of those carnival games? You gone to like a local carnival, a real bad one, like, you know, good and well, they don't take care of anything. They're just a few rusted bolts away from it all destroying itself. You ever gone to one of those carnival games You're like, I can do this. I can toss the ring on the bottle. I can pop the balloon. I can shoot that basketball. Not a problem. And you try it and it doesn't work. And you're like, let me try again. And before you know it, you're $20 in on a game. And it's like, this is not beatable because it's not. It's rigged. The game is rigged. It was never fair. It will never be fair. That's exactly the situation you're in. It's not fair. No, it's not. And guess what? It will never be fair. You can only choose not to play it. You can only choose not to play it. So number 1 is this mindset. When you were talking to these personalities that exhibit strong narcissistic behaviors or a pattern of it, understand you are playing their game. And you can say, well, I'm just not going to play. That's true. You cannot play. And that would be my advice. Ideally, it's, yeah, you never deal with these people. Ideally, yeah, you don't talk to them. But that, again, like I started at the outset of this episode, it's not reality oftentimes. Now you could say, I'm out of here, I'm not talking to you, and you're gone. It's just not practical. It sounds good when somebody writes it in a comment. It's not practical. This is something where I want you to actually be equipped for real life. And if that's— if I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my job, and that's— then I'm not even following my passion. And what's the point of that? You're in a game called praise or provoke. Get that in your mind when you talk to these people. Doesn't matter what you do, if you're not feeding them with control, if you're not feeding the monster with your emotions, whether it's happy emotions or sad emotions, they will— they will turn into the worst types of personalities you'll ever experience where you go, I, I cannot do it. And I know you want to fix it. That's what— you're good. I know if you're listening to this episode, you're a good person because you're trying to figure out how do I do it, how do I navigate these situations. You want to fix it. That's the rigged game. That's the rigged game, baby. You, it looks beatable. It looks beatable. If you could just explain to them how what they said hurts you, if you could just put it just the right way, and all of a sudden the light bulb's gonna click and they're gonna— their eyes are gonna open. They go, oh my gosh, I've said so many things that are so hurtful, and you're right, you're right, I should take accountability for this, and I, I should be better about this. That will never happen. Don't do it. Have the mindset of just one, acknowledging you're in the game. Two, what are practical ways, Jefferson, of how we're going to handle these kind of conversations? I'm going to tell you. You want to use very neutral, flat statements. Why? Because they can't do anything with it. We're tempted in our default to say things that are going to incite, things that are going to prove to them why they're wrong and why we're right. That doesn't work with narcissists. They don't do empathy. They don't do acknowledgement. They don't do accountability. So instead, we're going to use flat, neutral statements. These are statements like, noted. That's good to know. Thank you. Oh, interesting. I don't know. You hear, just flat as can be. You can't do anything with those. You can't make something up in them. You can't take it and run with it. You can't twist them. Flat, neutral statements. I love noted. It's one of my favorites. I'm talking to a client— not client, excuse me— when I'm talking to somebody who's an adverse witness and they make some kind of snide comment, and I know we're going to talk about the type of personalities I cross-examine that I consider to be typically very narcissistic in their behavior. If I just say, noted, can't do anything with it, can't do anything with it. When you have flat neutral statements, you keep them very short. You hear how they're very short. They're not long. If you can't keep it to one word, find one word that you like that you can go to over and over and over and over, even if it's okay. You hear how I said that? Okay. It's not like, okay, okay, where it's rude or try to have some kind of tone into it. Okay. Flat as can be. So find a word, very short, very flat, that you can't do anything with. Number 3, I want you to have this mindset of limited time, limited interaction. This is not the time when you're talking with these kind of people to sit down with your, with your hot tea and say, let's, let's talk it out. Let me, let me, I need to express to you all the things that have been boiling up inside me, and I really just, I need to empty out my bag with you and help talk about this kind of stuff. Nope, they're not going to do it. Can't, they can't. Understand, they cannot. So When you get in those situations, keep it very limited. Even if it's a time frame, keep the conversations as short as can be. When they start to lash out in different ways, go to your neutral statements. Remember the game and keep it very short. When you try to have a very quick clapback or a comeback, it's not going to work. It's never going to have the effect that you want it to have. They don't do that kind of stuff. I'm going to tell you right now a tip that I've used a lot with these type of behaviors in cross-examination. Again, you take it however you want to take it. I can promise you it works. See, people who exhibit narcissistic behaviors don't care about you. They care about everybody else. Everybody else who they believe is watching them. Don't care about you. They care about the audience, the crowd. This is their stage after all. Didn't you know? This is their platform. Everybody loves them. Everybody watches them. Their audience, my people. That's what they see in their world. That's why they can't admit when they're wrong. It would hurt the ratings. It would hurt the views, right? So how do you use that to your advantage? Let me tell you a story. I was taking a deposition of an expert. That's the type of people I usually cross-examine. They show narcissistic tendencies, experts. And it's not because they are an expert. That does— that's not the, the bad pattern, not at all. There's some wonderful people that are experts of their field. I'm talking the type that drink their own Kool-Aid so much that, I mean, they just, they get drunk off of it. The people who just get intoxicated by the sound of their own voice. Now they will, it's often a very highly specialized topic. Maybe it's a biomechanical engineer. Maybe it's a very highly qualified accident reconstructionist or um, some specific niche-down toxicologist, something that's very, very, very high-end. You— we need these type of opinions in, in cases. Real quick, in, in certain— well, for sure in Texas and for sure in the U.S., you can't— I can't just go on the stand, or you can't just go on the stand and say, oh yes, I'm going to give an opinion about a toxicology report or something of I just tasted this water and it has X amount of sodium in it. You can't just say that if you don't have the credentials to back it up. Anybody who's an attorney, you know, Rule 702, you have to show that you have qualified knowledge, skills, training to be able to make these kind of opinions. Well, these experts know that, and typically if they've been in the field a very long time, they have a very high opinion of themselves. And the good news is that's very good on paper to have a qualified opinion, but it's very bad for a jury. The why? Because they come across as a jerk. They can come across as very snooty, very uppity, very full of themselves, because a lot of times they are. The real experts that are awesome— and I mean, a good expert can make your case, a bad expert can totally break your case— the ones that extremely knowledgeable and are able to create the, the link between what's happened in the evidence and the law and, and show you why and kind of teach you through it. And also, they're just a likable person. That's the kind of expert you want. Well, I was deposing— I know this wasn't a deposition, it was a case— a guy, um, and he was extremely— I mean, I'd already known in the deposition he was very, very full of himself. So I was asking him questions about my client's injury, talking about the case, and he made this opinion that was— I couldn't even understand how he was making the opinion, but it was, it was about my client's injury, saying that she couldn't have been injured in the car but yet somebody else who had been hit, who hit them, they had been injured and he was okay with that. Anyway, we started talking and I asked him a question, something pretty basic, and he said something to the tune of, well, I mean, I would explain it to you, but you know, I don't know if that would really do any good. And the whole jury was like, several of them kind of like gasped. They're like, oh, like, their case was done after that. He had hurt the opinion of the other side pretty bad. So badly that the other attorney in closing argument had to kind of apologize for it and say, well, you can't, him as a, whatever you think of him as a person, you understand his opinion here today. Anyway, you gotta be careful of those kind of people. And the other attorney couldn't really do much about it, but it was just a, it was a not nice guy who, we all knew, and the jury knew, and the judge knew, everybody in the courtroom knew, he was a narcissistic type of behavior. Now, what did I do in that case? I referred to the jury. He made an opinion, and I said, if you think— and you think the jury's going to like this opinion, is what I said. I said, you think the jury's going to like this opinion? And he almost instantly, you could see he kind of just did the calculation in his head and all of a sudden pivoted to say, well, I mean, well, it's not so much about like, you know, what I, what I try to do in my experience in my field. And he went on to just talk about himself. Now see, what I did was I talked about the jury. How do you apply this to your own life? They don't care about you. They care about the audience. When you can say something to the tune of, others and people. I've used this tactic many times. This is how you do it. So let's break it down. Somebody says something that's narcissistic, or narcissist is talking to you and they say something, you respond like this. If you think that's a good look, or if you think others are going to like that, or I wonder what other people would think about this. I wonder what your friend would think about this. You name that friend. I'm not sure if others would agree. Anytime that you talk about others or people, I have seen many, many times they will change their behavior almost instantly because it reminds them they're not talking to you. They're talking to the crowd, their people, and they will adjust their opinion, adjust their tone to fit the audience, even if it's invisible. In fact, especially when it's invisible, because you just think all eyes are on them. Anytime you can use the phrase, well, if you think others are going to agree with you, see, it's very simple to say, hey, look, if you think others are going to agree with you, or if you, I wonder what other people would think about this. I wonder what other people would think about the way you just said that. They will turn They will turn it, they will make it better. They will make it sound better. They will make it sound more empathetic, make it sound more sensitive or sympathetic without actually exhibiting any of the real character traits. So when you talk about others, the takeaway here is when you talk about others, they will pay more attention to what they are saying and give a more productive output than when they think they're just talking to you. That's the takeaway. Narcissistic behaviors are not fun to deal with, but they're everywhere. And sometimes, you know what, every single one of us can exhibit a behavior that some might call narcissistic. We can make things about us. We can say things we don't mean. The difference, the difference is the empathy. If I can take accountability for what I said, if I can apologize, if I can apologize, genuinely mean it, change my character, if I can empathize with what I said and I understand, if I can just say, you know, I can see how that affected you. I can see, use the phrase, I can see, I can see how that would upset you and really mean it. Narcissistic people can't do that. All right, so if you're wondering— I'm saying that to tell you, if you're sitting there thinking, am I the narcissist? If you are asking yourself that question, you are not. If you're asking yourself that question, you are not. All right, the takeaway here: number 1, understand when you're talking to a narcissist, you're playing a game. It's praise or provoke. Understand that you're in that game and it's rigged. You cannot beat it. 2, when it comes to responding, rather than engaging and inciting more of a conflict, which again feeds into the game, you're going to use short Controlled, flat statements. And 3, if you need to, use phrases that are going to give attention or recall to the crowd. Talk about others, talk about people, and they will adjust it rather than thinking they're just talking to you. So use what you know about narcissists and use that to your advantage in a way that is safe. All right. Now, on the outside, they look totally normal. Maybe you're related to one. Maybe you work with one. But a narcissist reveals themselves as soon as they open their mouth. Now, if you don't know exactly what a narcissist is, as if you've heard this term a lot, but you're not really sure how to define it, I'm going to break it down very easy. And it is simply somebody who cannot imagine thinking about someone else. They can't put themselves in somebody else's shoes. It's always about them, how great they are, how wonderful they are. If somebody else is having a good time, they need to be having a better time. If they're frustrated, they need you more frustrated. They understand that it is not empathy that they do. It is all about the gratification of oneself, and they just can't get there. It always has to be about them. They're always the victim, and it will always be that way. And the best thing about a narcissist typically is they have no problem telling you that they're a narcissist. So here's some tools that I'm going to give you the next time that you find yourself talking to a narcissist. Number 1, don't play the game. Anytime you're talking to a narcissist, you are playing a game. It's a game I call praise or provoke, but at the end, We're gonna find it's a rigged carnival game. It's not something that you can win, so we're not going to play it. Number 2, anytime that you feel like you don't know what to do, understand that the best move you can often make is no move at all. And we're gonna talk about exactly how to do that. And number 3, rather than getting yourself worked up as if you need to prove to them that they need to see the wrong of their ways and they need to apologize, That's probably never going to happen, at least to the extent that you want. Instead, there are ways that you have to look within and understand that you don't need an apology to validate your own feelings. All right, how to talk to a narcissist. Now, I want you to understand for a minute, I am no psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I'm not somebody that has a degree in this. So I'm going to be very clear with you. I'm not in a place to diagnose somebody as a narcissist. And unless you really have a the ability to clinically diagnose somebody. You have to be very careful when you use that word. It's often overused for anybody that's doing something negative that they don't like, or maybe they're just not understanding you in a certain way and they're not being willing to understand you. It's easy to just throw over a blanket and consider them a narcissist. I want you to be very careful about that. So, that disclaimer out there. There are people that are diagnosed as narcissists, and there are others that just have narcissistic tendencies or behaviors. So I want to make sure you understand that distinction. I typically see narcissistic behavior in my line of work. I see it among attorneys, certainly when you have that kind of ego of who's right and who's wrong and who has more cases, who's been more successful. I see that a lot, but often it's in cross-examination. I am cross-examining somebody, let's say they're an expert in something, or it's a personality that's on the other side of the fence as me in a case, and I have to cross-examine them, and they're just never going to admit any kind of blame despite the evidence that suggests otherwise. And so the tools that I'm going to be discussing with you today, I want you to understand, are about as practical as they can be, because there is a place that you have to go in your mind to be able to regulate yourself and go to when you know that you are talking to a behavior like this, that you have to separate that person from their behavior and understand that what they're doing is a game. Which is why rule number 1 is don't play the game. Anytime you're talking to a narcissist, you are walking into their trap. That is a game that they like to play. I call it praise or provoke. In other words, if they don't feel like you're praising them enough, if they're not getting enough accolades in the discussion, they will turn to provoke. They will start an argument with you because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. And you feel like it's something you can win. You feel like when you get into that bad argument that you can show them their ways, how they're not listening to you, how they're not understanding you, but they will not do it. It is a rigged carnival game because it is that control that they like. They feed off of that control. Have you ever been in a conversation with somebody and you talk well about a third person, maybe it's a mutual friend that you have and you're saying something nice about that person, the narcissist will typically go, "Oh, well, yeah, well, I've heard about X, Y, and Z," and say something terrible about this person. Or they'll say, "Oh yeah, well, I mean, I did this. How about me?" They'll try and focus and put that spotlight on them. Narcissists want that spotlight entirely on them, unless they've done something wrong, then they'll quickly try and put it on you. The key here is understand that this is a game. Often it is a game. It is a, um, something that they enjoy in the back of their mind. And the best thing you can do is not play that game. So key number 1 is recognition, recognizing that you are in a game and you're going to choose to take your pieces off of the board. You don't have to play it. And that's why rule number 2 is that the best move you can make is no move at all. Meaning silence is your best friend. Often when you're in a conflict with a narcissist and they're saying terrible things, you want to push back against it. You want to think that you can beat it. Instead, often the best move is to say nothing. Silence. The best thing about it is that it can never be misquoted. It can't be twisted in some sense and repeated back to you over and over, manipulated and stretched into something. Often you have this urge to say more and say longer things, throw in 4 sentences, 6 sentences of all this reasoning that's logical and reasonable. But they don't do that. They take those sentences and they string them apart and they'll pick out one word and flip it. And all of a sudden, they're the ones that look like the victim. That's the play, is they will flip that script to twist it and make it look like they're the victim. They're the ones under attack when you know that's not the truth. Silence can never be misquoted. And if you do anything at all, we're going to stay neutral in the conversation. When I say neutral, I'm meaning you are refraining from saying things that are hurtful because they will lay this trap expecting you, hoping that you will say something ugly, you will say something disrespectful, rude in some sense, to put them down, because that's what they've been doing, right? They've been throwing these arrows and no problem. But as soon as you do, oh, they act like, woe is me, and you're the worst person alive. And now you're trying to play the comparison game, and it's You're going to be out of depth very quickly when you go into that who's more wrong. So often when you want to stay neutral in the conversation, that means you're going to be saying, "Noted. That's good to know. Okay. I hear you." You're going to be using these little bitty phrases, meaning you're not going to continue to give conversation. You're not going to put back and put a defense back and say, "Well, yeah, what if?" But what about— that's going to just make it worse with a narcissist. Instead, you want to be neutral in that conversation. Go, okay, noted. Thank you for saying that. I understand. Anything that gives them no ability to grab onto, nothing for them to carry on to in the conversation. So the more neutral you can be on a just monotone, nothing that's engaging in any way, nothing that's pressing attack on them, that's going to be a source of strength. And number 3, I want you to understand where you need to go in your mind when you're communicating with a narcissist. There is this tendency that we have within us to make them want to understand our point of view. It's very easy to get into this push and pull of, oh my gosh, they just, they're not listening to me. They only think about themselves. How can I get them? What can I say to click on the light bulb and make them think about what it's like on my side? Not going to happen. I hate to break it to you, but it's not going to happen. They can't. They can't do that. All right, so stop trying. Stop digging that hole time and time again and expecting them to fill it. It's just going to be an empty hole. Instead, I want you to get to a place in your mind where you think to yourself, instead of, man, they never— they only think about themselves, where you switch to say, it is time that I think about myself and my peace of mind and my source of strength and where I go to, where I draw my strength from, who I draw my strength from. Because there are friends and people in your life that want to fill you, that want to give to you. They want to be part of filling your cup. Narcissists will only take, and they will continue to take, and they'll continue to pour out. So understand there are givers in relationships and takers in relationships, and it's the same way in a conversation. So go into that mindset of you're not going to get that apology. From them to say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're right. I was totally stubborn. I was totally ignorant. I was so unreasonable in this. I was disrespectful. Most likely never going to happen. So instead, understand that you don't need an apology to validate feelings. You don't need an apology to feel like a bow has been tied on that conversation. You can finally lay it to rest. No, you just need to put down the shovel and keep on walking. All right.

How do you deal with a narcissistic personality style? Somebody that is always about them. I'm thinking about a number of friends that are divorced and have an ex that they share kids with. And you're getting the long texts and a lot of make wrong and How do you deal with somebody that is, first of all, never going to change? And second, you have to figure out how to navigate communication with them because of the kids or because you work for this person.

There's an initial mindset you need to have, and that is know when you're in their game. It's a game of either praise or provoke. If you're not filling them with praise, then they will turn to provoke and start an argument, because it gives them the same amount of satisfaction. They delight in your anger as much as they delight in your praise. It is that sense of control that they have. So know first when you are on the board, and you are playing their game.

Okay.

So number one is, you don't have to play that game.

Okay.

You do that by, two, adding as much distance as you can. Don't feel like you need to have this rapid-fire text exchange. They text, respond the next day. You need to wait. Most people, maybe they need to be reminded there's not some kind of stop clock on text exchanges of you required to respond. There's no delay of game. You get to choose when you respond, and you're going to do it when, when you're ready. I'll respond to you when I've calmed down. I'll respond when I'm ready. You find ways to distance the emotional reaction that you could have. You also want to stay neutral. And that means you say very boring things like, I understand, noted, good to know, got it. These short little things that are going to give them nothing to feed on. Because if you think you're going to solve all your problems in giving them that paragraph of a text, and you think you really just gave them 100 words of pure amazingness that's going to shut them down and change your life, You're kidding yourself, because what they'll do is just pick out one word from that paragraph and twist it and not acknowledge anything that you said. So less is always better when it comes to communicating with those type of behaviors and tendencies.

Wow. How do you broach with somebody who you care about who's like in a bad mood or they're really intense and they're that way a lot? Like, because I've tried to, and it feels like poking a grizzly. Like, are you upset about something? Or, you know, like, is there— like, why?

Like, well, I don't think there's a better way to approach the 'are you thinking about something?' It's this idea that whatever they say, you need to be a safe space for. Because I always want to be the person that my kids can come to with problems. And if I teach them that when you come to me and you're hurting, or you're in a bad mood, or you're grumpy, and I don't like that, and I don't accept that, and I don't want that. When you're in trouble, don't come to me. They're just— you're not a safe space for that. They'll go be real somewhere else. I can be grumpy. I mean, I can be in a bad mood. And so often you have to remember that when you're talking to somebody that's a spouse or a kid and they are grumpy and you poke that bear, there should— they should be in the safest space of their life to be able to tell you, the person who loves them, how they're feeling genuinely, authentically. If it's somebody who you don't know that well, you probably don't want to ask that question, but you might want to say, how are you feeling? But I'd be jud— I'd be careful on the assuming that they're feeling a certain way. Now, If we want to tweak this and say, what if somebody sends you something that's rude, like a rude comment that you read, an email and it's rude, the kind of thing that you're like, I can't believe this. Can you believe that somebody would send this? Hey, so-and-so, come here. Look at this. You see what they read? Can you believe that? It's the, did you mean? Did you mean to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound disrespectful? The did you mean is always a great tweak, and you can use that as well.

Did you mean?

Did you mean— did you mean for that to sound so harsh?

Did you mean to teach us all how to be better communicators?

Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. But it really does help anytime you find something that— uh, we use this a lot— is that, did you mean for that to sound short? You get that text, you know, I do that even with my dad, uh, because my dad's like the one-word texter. Classic. Yeah. So I have to say, did you mean for that to sound short? There's some people that you just shouldn't— you shouldn't text with or email. Just pick them up and call them. There's people that you're like, oh, they send the rudest email, but when you talk on the phone, they're so pleasant. You just know that's not their best mode of communication.

How is it that you learned to assume good intent about people?

Can't believe it. There's a sense that goes to who you are and just your philosophy on life, and I believe that that most people are good. They want to do good. And there are people in this world that are truly hurting. And they came in hurting long before they met me. And so there are certain things that I know I could say that could be a trigger for somebody that I know nothing about. And I don't know why it's a trigger. I don't know their childhood. I don't know that one thing that they're insecure about. You ever said something and you said something about their job, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, you think your job's better than mine? What you're hearing is just insecurity. It's— that's, that's what you're hearing. So you have to find the way. My dad would tell me, the issue that they're giving you is not the real issue, meaning there's always something that's layered underneath that, and you just have to be curious enough and patient enough to find out.

What are your parting words?

I'm going to tell people that when you— the next time you are in a difficult conversation with people, number one, I want you to say what you have to say with control. It means you're going to control your breath, control your volume, control your body, and understand you don't have to say anything that you don't want to say. Two, I want them to say and speak with confidence. It means using an assertive voice that doesn't give over-apologies that mean nothing or say, I hate to bother you, when it means nothing at all. And 3, I want them to say things to connect. In other words, say what you mean and mean what you say. If you need to deliver bad news, deliver it. If you need to give a compliment, give it. And at the end of the day, they need to follow their heart and be true.

You're with a narcissist now. You're with a full-blown narcissist now. These are, in my opinion, the most difficult people in the world to communicate with. That and someone who's just patently dishonest all the time in their communication with you. But you're dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissists in the first place structurally? Is there anything that you know, if this person's a narcissist, this is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them?

Anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist, you're playing a game. You, you are on the board. And it's a game of either praise or provoke, meaning that if you are not showering them with praise, Ed, they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. They always want that from you. It's that sense of control. Whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you, that's exactly what they're going to do. It's a game and it's a rigged game. And the reason why I say it's rigged, because it looks beatable. Like we've been in those conversations with narcissists and been on the other side of the table and you go, if I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm going to get them to understand. I'm going to get them to apologize. I'm going to get them to see the light and go, oh my gosh. Yeah. You're so right. I can see how you are upset by that. They're not going to do that. They don't. Narcissists just, they don't do empathy. They might know it hurts. They can't care about it. And so the first idea and mindset you need to have is that you're just not going to play the game. You do that by one, using phrases that are very short and to the point that they can't do anything with. So if you were to just to say, got it, noted, I hear you. Like, it's something as simple as that. It just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They can't draw from it. The longer your answer— I tell this to all my clients, so it goes really for any communication— but the longer your answer, the more questions you're going to get every time, the more that you're going to have to say. Like, you've sent that text message to somebody and it was like a paragraph, and you're like, oh, this is the best, most poetic put-together text I've ever sent. And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle, and you're like, they didn't even address anything that I said. Yeah, that was the point. So you, you, you, you said too many things. You need to give just a little bit. Two, you need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation. Or what I also like to do, and, um, this is, this is a go deep moment with me and you here, is that when I am cross-examining a narcissist, typically some type of expert witness, somebody who feels like they just have the ego of just out of control, that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion, is you use their thoughts about their reputation. So if I'm questioning a witness and he, and I know he's a narcissist, I might say, and you think the jury's going to like that? And it might just be me and him in the room. I say, and you think the jury's going to like that? Well, well, uh, because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say, if, if you think others are gonna be okay with that, now they're thinking outside of it because they really don't care about you. They care about the others. And so whenever you can get them to think about their reputation outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good about it in that moment.

That's very good.

So these are what I call dismissive comments in that they are dismissing your feelings, trying to dismiss any consequence of what they said. And in many ways, I want you to see these comments as them trying to control the eventual outcome. Imagine somebody— imagine me just punching you in the arm, and you go, "Ow!" I go, "That didn't hurt." You ever had that happen? Maybe as a kid growing up, or you have a sibling. I know I'm the oldest of 4, and that definitely happen when you're roughhousing, you're wrestling, you do something, you go, that didn't hurt. And they go, what do you mean that didn't hurt? So I want you to imagine that in your mind, that somebody's hit you in the arm and then they tell you that didn't hurt, as if they get to decide that, yeah, I hit you in the arm, but it didn't hurt. So no harm, no foul, right? You are the one that gets to decide that. And we're going to talk about these techniques on each one of these And I want you to emphasize the idea that they don't get to say the outcome. They don't get to say the consequence. You do. They don't get to say what hurts. You do. Right? You with me? All right, let's go. So first up is, "I was just joking. I was just joking. That's just a joke." I hear that all the time. I know that you do too. When you get that dismissive comment back to you on something, "I was just joking." Here's what I want you to do. Play off of this. If they want to make it a joke, then it better be funny. So what I like to say is, if somebody tells you, "I'm just joking," you respond, "Then make it funnier. Then make it funnier." Easy as that. That's number 1. Number 2, you could easily say, "Then work on your material or find new material." How about that? "Then find new material." In other words, don't be making a joke about me. Don't be making a joke about something else. If they try to say something that is hurtful to you, let's say they made a comment about your looks or your weight or your age or whatever it is, and then you kind of take offense to that and they go, "Hey, it was just a joke, okay?" As if all of a sudden they've taken away any stinger that they have. When they make that kind of stuff, you say, "Well, then find new material." Or, "Was that supposed to be of the funny kind? Was that supposed to be funny?" "Hey, it was just a joke." Then be funnier. Then find new content. Then find new material. Any way that you can play off the word of a joke, it's going to work to your advantage. My favorite is, then be funnier, because it is a reminder right there in that moment of, if you wanted this to be a joke, that's not what it is. This— you can't just tailor a dismissive comment that's meant to be hurtful to me and just call it a joke and make sure everything is— then we're all good. And we're all good. No, no harm, no foul, like I talked about. When that kind of stuff happens, easily twist it back on them as, was that supposed to be funny, or was that the funny kind of joke? Whenever you can ask those kind of things and put them on their heels to say, that's, that's not going to pass with me. Number 2, one of my least favorite, is don't take it personally. Hey, don't take it personally. Like, come on, Well, then don't say it personally. What do you mean, don't take it personally? You just said it to my face. How can it not be any more personal? It is to me one of the just a total withdrawal of all accountability, of any ability to say, look, that was on me. You know what? I shouldn't have said that instead of this, don't take it personally. I can't stand that comment. Here is some things that I like to use, and I know you can use them too. I get to decide that. I love that one because it is very immediate and clear where the boundaries are. Somebody says something to you and then they go, don't, don't take it personally. You respond, I get to decide that. It's the whole thing of hitting you in the arm kind of concept of, look, I get to decide to take it personally or not. Don't, don't tell me how to take something. If you're going to send the paper airplane, I have a choice of how I'm going to catch it or if I let it fall. If you're going to throw the ball at me, I get to choose whether I want to catch it or I don't. It's all within my choice. So having that idea of I get to decide that puts you in the control seat every single time. Another that I like to use with don't take it personally is don't say it personally. Don't say it personally, or then say it differently. That one is a comeback that you can use with all kinds of different dismissive comments, but I like that specifically with "don't take it personally" because of it sounds like alliteration in a way. We say "personally," "differently." They both have the adverb "ly" in them, and I feel that they're great at— it's a great little comeback to say, "Look, if you don't want me to take it personally," then say it differently. Say it again. Say it a different way. It's a very strong, straight-up front to say, look, if you don't want me to take something personally, then try again. Take it— say it differently. Okay, number 3 is, don't be so sensitive. Mm, you heard that one? I know I have. Don't be so sensitive. And to be honest, I've definitely been one that said that too. And it wasn't fair. Say, don't be so sensitive. It is this idea that you go, look, don't— can you just let things go for a bit? I just said something, all right? Do you have to turn everything into a fight? You have to do this. There is a toxic element of that type of dialogue because yes, you want to control the reaction, that's understandable, but That is just part of the battle. That means you're not doing the work up front to think about the consequence of what you're saying or to think about how your words sound. You just expect them to go how you want them to go. You want everybody to react how you expect them to react in your head, and that's not fair. So when you say the phrase, "Don't be so sensitive," understand everybody is sensitive. Everybody is sensitive. It just depends on the topic. It depends on the context. It depends on the environment. So it's subjective to everybody. So let that be what it's going to be. But when they say, "Don't be so sensitive," one thing that you can do that I love to do is play off the word "sense." S-E-N-S-E. Say, "Sense." So they say, "Don't be so sensitive." No, I'm sensing X, Y, and Z. So if somebody were to say, "Hey, look, it's just a joke. Don't be so sensitive." You can reply, "No, I'm just sensing you're not that funny." You see what I mean? If somebody were to say an inappropriate comment and they go, "Don't, like I just said it, don't be so sensitive." You can reply, "No, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's appropriate to say out loud." You feel the difference? Here you're not getting upset. You're not getting defensive. You are playing off of their words. "Oh, don't be sensitive? No, I'm sensing. I'm sensing X, Y, and Z.", and that's going to put you in a much better position to stay steady rather than a weaker position. And the key to each one of these replies that I'm suggesting for you to try is that you cannot let yourself become defensive. I know that's easier said than done, but I want you to play it out. If you were to automatically— somebody says, don't be so sensitive. And you're like, sensitive? I'm not sensitive. What are you talking about? That's getting defensive, and all of a sudden you sound weaker and they sound stronger. Let me put it differently. They sound right and you sound wrong. You hear it? If you were to say, I'm not sensitive, what are you talking about? Me? I'm not sensitive. They sound stronger, you sound weaker. Instead, when you can stay exactly where you are and say, no, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's okay to say to each other. Oof. I mean, that is a verbal punch. I mean, that is such a stronger position to keep in that instance. So anytime that somebody says, don't take it personally, and you scoff at that, you get upset at that, you look weaker. If they were to say, don't be so sensitive, if they were to say anything else that is a dismissive comment like it was just a joke, and you joke that, that, and you start to get— you swell up about it and get defensive and start putting up your walls, the more it looks like you are exactly what they say you are. The more it looks like you're more sensitive, the more it looks like you're taking it literally, that you are everything that they say. So you have to make sure that you keep your breath calm Right? And I want you to stay exactly where you are. Try your best to not get defensive. It will really, really make a difference.

What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss. Person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of— wrestle's the wrong word— but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a conversation? You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not, they're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know Ed? Ed's great. Yeah, you need to— and they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas, or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation, typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator, of a leader, correct? Correct.

Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove, they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever is happening instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.

Brother, so good. You, by the way, you exhibit that, by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live. There's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts, and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, they're fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting.

Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality? My breath.

It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like when you are feeling threatened, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation. And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, well, I say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're going to have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say, but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is going to win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just, you lose your credibility. You've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got now? Now it's just awkward. You want awkward silence between the two of you. You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kind of control your breath and your shoulders.

And shoulders, like Pull them back?

Uh, no, you're putting them down. Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's tension, makes you cranky.

Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table. And using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with. Yeah. Lowering your voice, deciding what you're going to respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And when you start to own that side of the power you realize you're actually always in control.

Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of I can RSVP no. I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um, you've all been— we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least. Me. It's what I'm realizing. It's the person who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that, that company, versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident, because confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over: "I see things differently," or "I remember things differently," period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and trying to challenge your truth. I remember things differently, period. They want to do it again because you're not going with them. I remember things differently. In my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. I remember things differently, period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let it— let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often you have this, uh, you ever been in those arguments where the person goes, wait, wait, wait, and they have to go the whole timeline? Of everything. No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so-and-so came in and remember the water that came and they spilled that? And they want to go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them, expecting you to say, yes, that's exactly what happened. I remember things differently. You don't have to explain that. You don't need to justify that because they're not going to ask you for it.

Because you're just not going with them. When somebody says, well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Yeah. Which always sounds a little passive. Is there a response to that, or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

I don't like it when somebody says, well, we can agree to disagree. I open it up, say it's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree. It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes people feel like they don't, they can't. Disagree with you. So open it up to give that permission. If you disagree with me, I want to know. I want to know. Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often you can talk different ways of how you're going to disagree with somebody. If I have a different perspective, I tend to lean differently. Something that just says, yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach. I tend to have another approach. And so it's a matter of I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there. As long as you're not talking about the other person of you are X, you're so X. It's that whole separating the person from the problem.

I love this because there's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know, the kind of person that just loves to poke. Yeah, they love to just say something controversial. They love to just kind of throw a zinger of an opinion out there, and it's so offensive or like, eh, that you kind of stop and think, you don't even believe that, right? Like, you're just looking to get a rise out of somebody. Is that the situation where you would go, I just think about things differently?

That's certainly one. You could easily say, I tend to have another approach, I think differently about that. It's okay to say I don't have an opinion. Or if I had an opinion, I'd give it— that's pretty easy of— I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure. Finding ways of just being what I like to call the wet blanket.

The wet blanket. The wet blanket. Just like on a fire. Exactly. Just throw a wet blanket on the fire. Because there are times where I literally just want to be like, you're a complete idiot.

Right, right, right.

And then I think, why are you taking the bait? This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, then you grab it. And you're— exactly. Next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic. And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody is an idiot. Well, that's—

that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that.

I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe I'm more powerful and calm. Like, you're such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very just— I've had that comment. You have?

Yeah, that they didn't— they— I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy. So I never gave them somebody to not like. Same way for a jury. If— as long as the jury likes you, Yeah, you, you're 90% there, Jefferson.

I think you actually just shared the secret of life. Yeah, no, seriously, don't give someone else an enemy. Yeah, like if you go— and this isn't about like being somebody soft who is soft. Yeah, and it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy. And who is worth your time and what is worth your energy and what conversations deserve a response and which ones deserve silence.

I like to call it being in the pocket. What is that? Well, and, um, I'm a musician. Oh, really? Yeah, I play drums. And for real, I play several instruments.

But I can't imagine you behind a drum set. You should have seen me. And did you ever have long hair?

I did, yeah. I had the whole, like, Yeah, I've been in multiple bands. There's a whole thing. Um, and—

oh wow, okay. Now, this is your point: the person you're talking to is not the person that they are. Okay, exactly.

Yeah. Um, and it's this idea of when you're in the groove and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great. You're not lagging, you're not loud and forceful, you're not calling attention to yourself, you're just in the pocket. I know I don't have to do anything crazy. I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the peacekeeper. There is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation. But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, this is a difficult person, It's just a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning and they were feeling it before they even entered the room, that the problem is not you. Instead of taking it so personally and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're going to come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation. And that's a really empowering thought.

Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true.

How do we broach, you know, hot button issues with, you know, with others and do it in a way that doesn't elicit defensiveness? And to actually, you know, you've already kind of given us some really, I think, wonderful suggestions, like not, you know, not initiating an interaction with the intent of winning it, you know? Yeah. But, but yeah, how do we— because defensiveness kind of kills all deals, I think. Oh yeah.

The funny thing about defensiveness is it's like locking yourself in your room from your own side of the door and then being mad that they won't get in. Like, you, you still expect the other person to understand you and your emotions, but you've dropped all need to ever want to understand them. So it's— you're protecting your own in that moment. You, you got your own box and you're saying, this is mine, and you're not touching it. When you have to have that difficult conversation with anybody, what I outline— and this is part of Saying It With Connect— is a frame. And Max, a frame is probably one of the most powerful tools that I teach for difficult conversations, what it does is give you a path to connect to the other person before the conversation even starts. So let's say you and I have to have a tough heart-to-heart. I come in the room and I say, hey, you got a moment? Hey Max, listen, so you remember back like 2 weeks ago you said that thing in front of our friends "Look, man, I gotta say, and look, we're still, you know, buddies." At the same time, you're going, "What are we talking about? Where's this going? What do you mean?" And you're getting worked up, you're gonna get defensive, your fight-or-flight's kicking in because you're going, "What fear of the unknown here?" It's like that text, "We need to talk." Like, nobody likes that text. You don't know what you're wanting to talk about. A frame rid yourself of all that, and here's how to do it. One is you tell the person what you want to talk about. Hey Max, I'd like to talk about your comments at the meeting last Thursday. Two, you tell them how you want to feel at the end of the conversation. That's the key. You have to tell them how you want to feel to enter the conversation. That's, I want to walk away from this conversation with X, or at the end of the conversation I'm wanting to feel Y. So for example, one is, hey Max, I want to talk with you about your comments at last Thursday's meeting. And at the end of the conversation, I'm not asking to solve anything, I'm not asking you to do anything. I just want to feel better about our priorities and that we're the same aligned. Or maybe it's even harder of, hey, I want to walk away understanding that you're not going to do that again. Or maybe it's, hey, I'm not saying this for you to fix it. I just need to say it out loud. That sound good? Part 3 is getting their confirmation, saying that, will that work? Can we do that? And it's like a hidden contract. It's like an implied contract where they go, okay, yeah, I can do that. Perfect. Now you know exactly what you're talking about. You know how you want to feel at the end of it. You're not asking to fix, you're just wanting to be heard on this. And now you've said, yeah, I can do that. So it's kind of like signing your name to it, and people don't like to break their word when they've given it. So it aligns it. When you have too many issues in a conversation and you want to talk about everything all at once, you're talking about nothing. Instead, you seem to focus on one issue one at a time. That's gonna allow you to have much deeper conversation and feel more productive afterwards. Same for in the business context.

Hmm, so you call that framing? Yeah, conversation.

Yeah, just a conversational frame that allows you to zero in on exactly what you're talking about and exactly what to do with it. What happens most often is we start talking, but you, you don't know how I want to end the conversation, and you don't know when the conversation is done. Hmm. So it's, what are you looking for? You looking for an apology? Are you looking to solve it? Are you going to fix it. I feel like there are times when somebody— the default is somebody's complaining to me, I'm looking to fix it. So I'm looking all around for, okay, you want me to say this? And they go, no, no, no, not that. And they keep talking. You go, oh, okay, so you want me to— well, you should do this. No, no, no, no, just listen to me. I am listening to you. I just don't know where— where— what's the point? Where are you wanting to go? That's, that's where it gets to frustration, um, in and out of it, because the anxiety that I might be feeling of, I don't know where you're going with this, I feel like I'm in trouble, have I done something wrong? If I were to send you it randomly, we need to talk, period. Your mind goes to the worst-case scenario. Oh my gosh, they're breaking up with me. Oh my gosh, I've done something wrong. What have I done? I mean, it's just that pit in your stomach of something is wrong. That is all your fight or flight saying, something is threatening me, the fear of the unknown, and we are having to prepare our bodies for it. And so it's, it's, that's what makes it— your voice gets shaky, or you're— you get all teary-eyed and you get worked up because you don't know where it's going. Frames help that. Yeah.

And I also appreciate that you're, you're literally like, in so doing, you're illuminating the path to conflict resolution for them. You're like really laying out like how they can make you feel like you're getting what it is that you want. Like you're making that path really clear for them. Yeah, absolutely.

Another way to do this is, let's say I need to have a sensitive conversation with you, or you need to let go an employee or somebody. Let's say we sit in the room and I say— here's, here's the bad scenario. Scenario 1 is you sit down, I say, Max, look, you've been You've been great here. How have you been? You good? The family good? How's your pickleball and your— yeah, yeah, this weather's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. So listen, Max, right there, right at that moment, you know things are going south and you're just waiting for the hammer to drop right away. That's bad. That's real bad. It's not going to go well and it's going to continue to drag on and on. Versus if I brought you in and say, Max, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. Or if it's as simple as, this isn't gonna be fun to talk about, I got some bad news. Just simple as that. And then I let you just hang with it for 3 seconds, 2 seconds to kind of ready yourself. And then I deliver that news. Almost every time what you think I'm going to say is better than what you originally thought. We always think worst-case scenario. But that's a lot better way to provide what you said, which I love, is a clear path of Let's be honest. Let's not be disingenuous. When you have that small talk at the beginning, it's, you know, it's fake. It's just to make yourself feel a little bit more comfortable with letting them down.

Well, yeah, I mean, on that point, do you, are you a fan of the compliment sandwich method?

No, no, no. I feel like it tastes a little raw. Yeah, whenever you provide a compliment and then you say your truth and end with a compliment, it has a bad aftertaste. I find it's much better to lead with the bad news right away and talk about it, and then what you're able to do is begin to, as a healing balm in some way, you are providing the— maybe that confidence, maybe that compliment to them. So if I need to let go of somebody, I've done it before. I've had to let go of an employee. Say, all right, this isn't gonna be fun to talk about. I need to let you go. And they go, okay. And I say, here's what we're running to, but I'm— here's the thing. I, I want to support you wherever you want to go. I think you're a wonderful person. There's the compliments. I think you're going to do a lot of things. It's just not going to be here. And, you know, if you need me for a reference, blah blah blah. That's where you can use the confidence and the compliments at the end of it should you need to, but it's never a good feeling when it's at the start when you're using that small talk of, "Oh yeah, how are your parents? Your parents good? Okay, well say hi to them for me." So listen, that's when you know it's all going south. They're just waiting for it. You're making them twist in the wind, and that's not fair. Clarity is kind. Being direct, it's much kinder.

Clarity is kind. Yeah, I had a conflict recently that I want to share with you, and, and I, I think I handled it well, but I'm not gonna share how I handled it. I want to hear how you would handle it and then see how that— how closely that aligns with what I— okay, what I actually did. I like it. So I live in, in Los Angeles in a very densely populated area. And I, you know, my bedroom is very close to the street. And there, I guess I have a neighbor that drives and parks on the street. He drives like a Mustang, like this red Mustang with like what has to be like a massive V8 engine. Yeah. And this person, not only do they insist on parking, or maybe they just like happen to live right next to me, but they park oftentimes right outside of my house. And my bedroom window is like— my bedroom is like right there, like right off the street. And this person seems to have a job where every single morning at 5:30 in the morning, he's turning on his car and going to work. He could be like a personal trainer, I don't know. I try not to judge. I mean, this guy's hustling, clearly. Every single morning at 5:30 in the morning, this guy's turning on his engine to go to work, and it's a big-ass engine. Most days it wakes me up at 5:30 in the morning. There hasn't been a single night when this guy's parked, you know, yeah, even like 2 houses, I still hear it. And, and it was driving me nuts, driving me nuts, because sleep is incredibly valuable. Yeah, I'm generally a good sleeper. But every single morning, 5:30 morning, I'm waking up because this guy's turning on his freaking engine. And in my head, I was like starting to write this narrative like, I hate this fucking—

yeah, yeah, you hate him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it could be like a blessing of an alarm clock. Like, if it had not been for his, his red Mustang, you wouldn't have, you know, been ready for your day.

Yeah, that's what—

fair enough, fair. Yeah. And did you, you talk to him?

So what I did was I, I wrote a note And I left it on his windshield, and I wrote a very polite note, and the note was something like, hey, you know, hey neighbor, I hope this note finds you well. Yeah, I hate you. I noticed that you often, you know, park outside of my house, and I didn't put my name, but I put my address, and and, you know, your car is— it's a beautiful car, but on startup, it without fail— I mean, it wakes me up every day at 5:30 in the morning. I mean, like clockwork, this guy's like turning on his car at 5:30, so it's clearly for a job. Yeah. And I was like, you know, if it's no stress to you, I really value uninterrupted sleep, you know, it would be very— I'd be very grateful if you might consider, if it's convenient, to park park a little further down the street. Yeah. All the best. And then I just signed off, your neighbor. And but that was just like—

you didn't use somebody else's name, like the other neighbor?

Because I feel like it's like too much information. Like I gave my general address. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I blame you.

And did you have any results?

You know, I think possibly, yes. I think he's been parking a little bit further down the street. Yeah. Okay, let's see. That's not bad. Yeah, but I threw in, I threw in a compliment. I was like, it's very nice car.

For sure, you got to compliment the car.

You got to compliment the car. Very nice red Mustang. Yeah. And I was very polite. In my head, I'd written this narrative like, I hate this MF-er, right? But, you know, I don't know anything about him. And yes, the reality is I respect him. Like, I don't have to wake up at 5:30 in the morning. It's probably a hard life, right?

I mean, do you know what this person looks like?

I have no idea.

Yeah, see, it could have been a— could have been a woman. It could be a 60-year-old lady. I mean, you never You never know. Yeah, here's what comes to mind. Not at all criticizing what you did. I mean, it's— if it sounds like it works, it works. My thoughts are, one, if you have the way to communicate with them in person anytime you can, it's better. Usually notes on the windshield are complaints. I get somebody parking too close. It's somebody who— and that's when you, you leave a note on their windshields. Typically notes are passive rather than being super upfront. It's a comfort thing. Next would be using the "I know," meaning you are giving qualities that you intrinsically believe that they have. So, "I know by the timing of the sound of your car you're a hard worker." Not just, "I like your car," but you're saying something intrinsic about them. "I know you're a hard worker." Specific. And you're extremely disciplined. In your job or your profession, or you're— you, and you take it very seriously. Um, I also take my job seriously as well, and to do it, I need to have a lot of sleep. I know you don't mean to. I know that is certainly not your intention. You have a beautiful car. Could you do me a favor and park a little bit further down the road, or wherever? I mean, I don't know if they have to park right there, or if you have a garage, I don't know. But that would be my approach is I'd love to be able to talk to you about this, love to have the chance. Like if you've never seen them before, you don't have a chance to interact with them, I'd offer that in the note. We'd love to say hello and meet you in person.

That would be smart. Yeah.

And then that way you could find out if it was really— because in your head you think, okay, red Mustang, it's got to be some meathead person that I hate. Has a gold chain and probably, you know, eats beef jerky. And so, um, versus somebody who it could be, you know, who's— it could be a surgeon who wakes up and saving millions of lives every day. So it's, it's having to like that, uh, getting out of our own system. Yeah. But the 'I know' helps a lot because like if I'm having a difficult conversation to somebody, say, look, I know that you value transparency, and I'm here because of that, so thank you for allowing me to say this to you. Or, I know that you value honesty. And all of a sudden they think in their head, oh, I am pretty honest. Or, hey, I know you like to keep things open-minded. They say, oh, well, yes. In their head they're going, yes, I am. Yes, I am open-minded. And they kind of want to rise up and take on the the quality that you gave them.

Hmm. Yeah, it sounds like you're trying to elicit empathy as opposed to— I mean, is it— that feels like a very fine line to walk. Yeah, it is, between defensiveness and empathy.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a— for sure, it's a very fine line because you don't want to give too much of yourself and weaken your position. At the same time, you don't want to come on too strong and weaken your credibility. So it's, it's harder when you don't know what the person looks like. It's harder when you haven't seen them in person. But 'I know' is a great way of priming a conversation with, with someone.

Can that be perceived though as condescending or presumptuous? Like, I don't really know anything about the guy.

He could, you know— yeah, well, I mean, you do know— I mean, well, what you do know is they wake up and leave the house at 5:30. What you do know is that is a very disciplined, consistent consistent routine. You do know that they take that very seriously. You don't have to know any more than that. I mean, that, that alone is something worth considering. I don't think it's manipulative. I don't think it's trying to take advantage of anything. It's simply, here are the clues of what I do know. I don't know what you look like. I don't know what you do. Here's what I do know. You take your alarm clock very seriously. You're very consistent about it. So using that as a baseline of, would love to get to know you more, is a great way of opening it up rather than if you wrote that note and go, hey, uh, your car wakes me up, how about you move it down the road, buddy? You know, that, that's not gonna— they're not gonna want to do any favors. No.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, before I wrote the note, I mean, for weeks I'd been thinking about, you know, alternatives that were way worse. Toilet papering the guy's car, throwing eggs at it. Yeah. Um, I never did any of that, of course, but, um, but yeah, this is all super, super important, um, and valuable advice.

Yeah, it's funny. You, um, have just been such a truly a legend in how the way you've turned, in my view, arguments and negotiations on their head. Of just, that's not how we think about them, but it's the way you, the techniques you teach are really, I, I just find groundbreaking. So the person right now who is thinking, I don't want anybody to disagree with me, I want everybody to agree with me, I want every conversation I have, an argument that I'm in, I, I want to win it 'And everybody needs to go along with my plan.' What would you say to that person right now who feels like they always have something to prove in the conversation? Yeah, you're driving people away from you. You're just, you're consistently, you're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and farther apart. You know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose. I, I think of it as a Las Vegas slot machine effect. Like, people get addicted to the slots. What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine? I've read that the arithmetic, the algorithm, is if they let you win 1 in every 84 pulls, you're going to keep dumping money into the slot machine. Because the win is so celebratory. Like, if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force him into submission, it's like the slot machine going off. The bells and the whistles are ringing, the lights are flashing, you're getting this huge hit of dopamine, anticipation. It feels so good, and you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times. And they're slowly draining your bank account. So if you got something to prove, you're just slowly driving people away from you. And suddenly you can't remember the last time you had a breakthrough, or nobody in your industry talks to you, or people, you know, pay the annoyance tax, make you just so you go away. And you got all these small wins, but they don't accumulate. They don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow They get along with people, they're not as argumentative, but they got a bigger house than I do. They got, you know, they get a better car, they're making more money. How did that happen? I think you're exactly right. This idea of when you're trying to come in and prove everything and push people away, like you said, you're only draining your own bank account, bank account of life. And I think that's wise wisdom. Does it sound like you really studied and researched a lot on how you could manage and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those 8 days? Have you had more panic attacks since the moment? They've gotten less and less and less. Less and less. They're like 5, 10 minutes at a time or something. Yeah. So, well, I haven't had, I probably haven't had a panic attack. I've gotten very close probably in the last like 3 weeks, but What it is is like a sense of boiling water. Like, I can feel the water boiling, and then I'm— and I can feel it in my body. Like, I can feel it in my fingers of, like, tingly. Yeah, yeah. Or I'm typically never somebody to shake my leg, but if all of a sudden my leg is shaking, then I'm like, okay, something's up. And then all— like, that'll tell me right away of, all right, what are we doing? What's going on, be able to kind of check in with myself and, and how that's been. But it's, it's progressed much better. Yeah, it really has. Therapy helps. Yeah. And I— in the— that was really the source, was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that I didn't ask for. Like, that— this is never my goal of like, if I can only get so many followers. Yeah, it was like a let's just go. I don't know. I got a few minutes. I'll go talk to my phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the— what is the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and panic that you've experienced over the last 6 months? How is your wife showing up for you and how has it made you relate to your family differently? Well, having kids has made me much more just empathetic as a, as a person. And I'll tell you that it's— it is a way that we relate to each other. When I see them start to get really emotional, I can see myself in it. My son looks a lot like me. And so I can— it's very much this kind of weird inner child-like dialogue. Like I'm telling him things that I wish I could have. Oh, I would have been told that, you know, hey man, it's okay to cry. Wow. Let it out. Let it out. No, yeah, I was never told that, but I wouldn't— I'm not going to make that mistake. And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time, and I love it. I mean, he's emotional in movies. I love it. You know, I was— and so I had to, to see that where I go, no, no, I've I've had that mistake of trying to put on this Jefferson's got it all together mask. Yeah, yeah, this I got it all, I got it all together. It's, it's, you are just let it out, man. Wow. It's all good. It's all good. And he will, he'll just cry and say, I can't help it. And I'll say, you don't need to. You're good, man. You're good. He's, he's very, both of my kids are extremely empathetic with, with movies. I shared something before of this. It's like not that long ago, and my son says, how your day was, Dad? It was good, buddy. We— it was, it was, it was good. And he was like, what'd you do? I was like, well, it was just good. It was a good day. It was fine. Truthfully, it was not good. Like, it was, it was a really horrible it was a rough day. It was a rough day. I was tired. And later on that evening, he came up to me again. He said, so why'd you tell me your day was good when it wasn't? Wow. I said, what? He said, you didn't— he said, you said it was good, but it didn't— you didn't say it like it was good. I was like, how did you— how did you know? He's like, you said it like it wasn't good. You said it like it was bad. I feel everything. Yes. And I was like, how are you this young and like he had already since that he told me he was good. He wasn't. Wow. And so that kind of aspect of it, when you say, how's my wife showing up for me? She's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, hey, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And she's awesome at supporting anything that I'm after. And we support both of our careers. She has a full-time career as her doing her thing in school and school. And I have my, my legal career. And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything. Like, you could, you could call it Finstagram. Like, nobody at my house— it doesn't exist at my house. It's just, uh, your dad, mom, kids, right? Mayhem, right? That's all, that's all it is. Now, she's very supportive of it, and they know that every once in a while Dad will make a video. Sure. So, because they want to make videos. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.