The Trick To Sounding Assertive in ANY Situation

Today we're talking about how to sound more assertive, that feeling of being honest and direct, but at the same time respecting the other person. What does it sound like and how can you do it right away? Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to subscribe to this channel and please leave review. If you have any topic suggestions, just throw them in the comments. When you need to sound more assertive, here's what I want you to do. Number 1, stop over-apologizing. This is where you say, "I'm sorry, so sorry," in every single sentence. I know it's a tick. I know it's a habit, but you gotta stop, and I'm gonna explain why. Number 2, stop undervaluing what you have to say. That's when you downgrade your comment before you even get it out. Again, this is hurting your confidence and we're going to dive into it. And number 3, get comfortable with the word no. Get comfortable disappointing people. No is a complete sentence. I want you to think back to a conversation where you wish you would have sounded a little bit more assertive. Maybe it was at home with a partner or a spouse. Maybe it was at work with a coworker or a boss. A time where you wanted to be honest, you wanted to be direct. But you just couldn't find the words. Think back to that conversation in your mind and wonder, what could I have said differently? And here's what I need to tell you right out of the gate. If you don't find your assertive voice, you will be walked over. It will affect your confidence and it will affect the trajectory of your life. It sounds harsh, but it's, it's very true. Now, in my life, where I found that I struggle with assertiveness the most was anytime I was new somewhere, maybe it was a new school or a new law firm, and I felt like I was crawling into it. I found myself being deferential to anybody and everything, even at the sake of my own well-being and my own boundaries. But what do you do? You're new. You feel like you have to do it. Well, that's not exactly true. When you find that assertive voice and you're able to say what you want to say and do it respectfully, It will change your life. And I mean for the better, because people will take notice. Your reputation will change. Your credibility will change. And man, that's the good stuff. So I'm going to throw out some scenarios to you and you let me know if any of them ring a bell. You walk in 1 minute late to a meeting and the first thing out of your mouth is, "Hey, so sorry I'm late," when you throw all of your stuff down. Or it took you 2 days to respond to somebody's email and the first word in your response back is, "So sorry." So sorry, I just saw this. Sorry, I am just now getting back to you. Or you're trying to get somebody's attention and the first thing out of your mouth is, so sorry. Hey, so sorry, 2 seconds. Hey, so sorry, I just need to talk to you for a second. You gotta stop. Listen to me. You have to stop. Those aren't apologies. And if they are, well, then you're just apologizing for all the wrong things. You're apologizing for your existence. You're apologizing for your time and you're apologizing for your priorities. These aren't real apologies. All right. You're finding ways to feel like you're an inconvenience to someone. But let me tell you, your, your, your worth is far more than just trying to feel that you're not an inconvenience to someone, that you always have to prove that you're not an inconvenience. So we're going to fix that. And the way to do it is instead of saying, I'm sorry, you're going to say, thank you. All right. It's as simple as that. Instead of saying, I'm sorry, we're going to use words of gratitude, like I appreciate or thank you. So if you come in walking into that meeting and you're 30 seconds late, you're 1 minute late, nobody's expecting an apology for that. Now, if you're 5 minutes late, I think it's absolutely the right thing to apologize because at that point you're wasting their time. But if you're just a few minutes late, if you're barely over the line, it's okay to say, "Thank you for your patience. Thanks for waiting on me. I appreciate your time." That is assertive. Or if it's in the context of you sending an email to somebody, instead of feeling like you need to say, "Hey, so sorry, I'm just getting back to this." Just respond, "I appreciate your time. Thanks for your understanding. Thank you for your patience." These are all things that they're gonna say, "Oh yeah, well, you're welcome. I do have patience. I do have understanding." Instead of you going, "Hey, so sorry," this less making you feel less in that way, it's instead you're being assertive with it. You're standing in your presence and saying, "Yeah, I had other things to do." I appreciate your patience though. In the context of the conversation of telling someone, hey, so sorry, can I have 5 seconds? You just erase it. Or you say, hey, when you get a moment, I'd appreciate some of your time. Or I'd appreciate some of your time when you get a moment. When you use words of gratitude, it is a cycle of saying, I am showing gratitude for your time. At the same time, they are appreciating your presence in the conversation. Rather than you always apologizing for it. Now, a separate but related topic to over-apologizing is number 2, downplaying your words. Here you are cutting down what you have to say before you even get it out. And you know what these sound like. For example, I hate to bother you, but, I mean, this might be a dumb question, but, you know, probably better than me, but these are all ways of chopping down what you have to say before you get it out. And what's worse is it makes it look like you have an insecurity when there may not be one. For example, when you say something like, well, I hate to bother you, but I have this question on X, Y, and Z. Well, before they actually answer the question, you have to have this mini conversation about whether or not what you have to say does or does not bother them. And 9 times out of 10, 99% of the time they're going to say, oh, that, that, you're not bothering me, you're fine. And you go, oh, you're not? Oh, okay, great. You're inserting something that's totally needless into the conversation. And I know why you're using these phrases, all right? I know why you're using them. And because it, you want to sound deferential, you want to sound like you're coming in from a low angle, a low perspective, rather than a high angle, as if you already know everything, you expect them to want to talk to you. So when you say, I'm sorry to bother you, you're trying to sound less harsh in the conversation, but you don't sound that way. It makes you sound like you don't believe in what you're saying. So the key to getting rid of downplaying your words is just not to do it. You erase these phrases from your conversation, or what I like to do, and I recommend, is that you add on to it. So for example, in The scenarios where you say, hey, this might be a dumb question, but, or this might be a stupid question. Instead say, hey, can I build onto that? Or, hey, can I take that further? Or, hey, there's something I'd like to add to that. When you add to conversations rather than shying away and taking away from them, it makes you sound far more assertive. And there's something else I want you to understand about no. Number 3 is no is a complete sentence. And here's what I mean by that. Stop feeling like you have to over-explain or justify every action or inaction that you take. When you say no, period, and leave it at that— somebody asks you a question and you say no, no— instead of over-explaining and saying, well, no, because, well, you know, I had that thing, and yeah, I got the dog, and we got this, and we got that, all of a sudden you sound less assertive and you water it down. No is all you have to say. So the key here is to stop adding because to the end of no, because it'll add more words to it. And the more words you add, the more it sounds like you're needing to explain and to justify when often the only word that you need to sound assertive is no. Now we're at the part where I am going to read an email from a follower. If you are not part of my newsletter, I send out one email per week It's a communication tip right to your inbox, totally for free. And for those who respond and have questions about things, I'm able to answer them. And so a lot of fun. This one comes from Daniel over in Canada. Daniel says, hey Jefferson, I love your comments, your content. Thanks, Daniel. I find myself over-apologizing constantly in my communication. I know I'm supposed— not supposed to do that, but what are some practical ways I can help remind myself in the moment?

I got it, Daniel.

Well, it's a little hard because it's my understanding, I've never been there, but people apologize a lot in Canada. Sorry. And I might be wrong, but I think it's a cultural thing too. So it's not all your fault. But if you want a very practical way to stop apologizing when you don't need to, I have a little tip you can use. Now, this might be a dad joke thing. I fully admit that now that I'm about to say it, but it works. Every time you're about to say, "Hey, so sorry," or "I'm sorry," when you don't need it, tell yourself in your head and catch yourself, "I'm not sorry. I'm Daniel. I'm not sorry. I'm Daniel." It's a reminder of who you are in that conversation. You're not who your apology is. You are who your existence is. You lean into that. So I am not here to talk about my apologies. I'm here to talk about who I am and what I need and how I need to assert my needs into this conversation. And it's a very quick way that you can do that. And I hope it helps. All right. I got another one. This one is from Ashley up in Maine. I've never been to Maine either. I guess I just need to travel more. Ashley says, hey, Jefferson, I love your short practical videos. Thanks, Ashley. I find myself always cutting down my words. My tick, my habit is to say, I could be wrong, but. So I get that. The I could be wrong, but it's a very easy phrase to slide in. The reason you're wanting to say that is because you don't want to sound like you're a know-it-all. Yeah. It's, you're not wanting to sound like you're always right. Like you always know the answer. So it's a little easier for you to hedge and say, hey, I could be wrong, but. That doesn't make you sound like that, right? Just like we talked about, it makes you sound like you don't believe in what you're going to say. And I have a trick that I use with my own clients that I know is going to help you. I want you to imagine, Ashley, all right, that you are an attorney. You have a suit on. We're in a courtroom and it's full and you need to speak on behalf of your client and your client is you. It's a duplicate of you. It looks just like you, sounds just like you, wears exactly what you're wearing right now. And your client's sitting down in the chair and you're the attorney. You're in a full suit and you're standing up in front of everyone and you have to speak on behalf of your client. And what are you going to say? You're going to say, my client needs to feel understood. My client isn't going to accept that. You're going to feel much more justified, assertive. You have to stand in that place of what your client needs and wants because you understand them. Well, instead of saying my client, actually, I want you to tweak it and just say I. Instead of saying I could be wrong, but say I need to know what's going on in this conversation. I need to feel understood. I need X, Y, and Z to say I need instead of my client needs. It's going to make you feel like you have a brand new personality. And now you can see where you always say, I could be wrong, but instead of just getting rid of that and saying, I need to make sure that I feel understood before we end this conversation. You see how more assertive that makes you sound? If you can do that, it's going to help your mindset the next time you find yourself in that situation. If you want to sound more confident, do this. Number 1, eliminate the fluff. Eliminate the fluff. You know what I'm talking about. Fluff is that kind of, well, I mean, you know, it's just this, it's just this, I mean, you know, it's fluff. Fluff that absolutely kills the confidence in your responses. Number 2, we're going to work on uptalk. That is where you begin to increase in the tone of your voice, almost like you're asking a question. Instead of saying something like this, it sounds kind of like this. At the end of your sentences, they uptalk, and that's not good because it makes it sound like everything you're saying is a question, like you're uncertain about it. And number 3, we're gonna work on word choice. That means we're going to eliminate ending your sentences with, you know what I mean? We're going to eliminate using the word just all the time, and we're going to minimize your reliance on adverbs. Those are words that end in -ly, literally. Now, I wanna be clear. There is a difference between talking to friends and talking in a professional setting, period. When you're talking to people that are close to you, who cares about fluff words? If you are fumbling over your words and you're saying, um, and you know, and, uh, I mean, well, maybe, you know, anytime you're saying that to a friend, no problem. It's casual, it's comfortable, it's part of the conversation. But if you're talking in a professional setting, maybe at work, maybe in front of an important group. Do you hear I just said that? In an important group. Then it's not that great for you because it makes it sound as if you are uncertain, like you're hesitant, like you're not sure what you're wanting to say. But in regular conversation, it's part of the game. Now, about fluff. Fluff comes in all shapes and sizes, and I want you to think about it As if it is static. It's a filler. They call them filler words. I like to say fluff. They also are ways of thinking about it of too much ice in your drink because they dilute your message. If you want to sound confident, you got to serve your words straight. So when you begin a sentence in front of a group, they ask you a question and it's— you're on the spot to respond. And the first thing out of your mouth is, Um, that's very common. They ask you a question and the first thing you want to say is, um, uh, well, uh, automatically that confidence and how you sound just tanks because you're not communicating. You're just wanting to make sound out. That's really what it is. We feel comfortable when we have this constant sound wave. Whenever there's the constant just noise, whether it's actual words being articulated or not. We just like hearing that sound. So that's why it comes out that way. If somebody asks me a question and I go, "Um, you know, well, I mean, it depends, you know." You see how vague that is versus you ask me a question and the first thing that I say is, "I haven't run across that before. I think it depends on a number of factors." And I begin to speak. Very different. Same goal. I'm telling them I've never run across that before. Very different sound. So you want to find ways to eliminate that fluff. And how you do it is very simple. It's very simple. Okay. Enough. It's so simple. You're going to be like, Jefferson, I knew this, but are you doing it? The question here is, do you know how to eliminate that fluff? And you do it by saying nothing wherever the fluff would be. Just get used to silence. It's that easy. Get comfortable with silence. That's it. You just get comfortable with silence. So wherever that filler word would be, say nothing. The way I teach, and I know I've said this on my podcast before, let your breath be the first word that you say. So when somebody asks you a question that you don't know, the worst thing you can do is go, um, and look up as if you're searching for the words. Instead, take a breath, let that silence be there, and then you get to respond. You don't have to have just noise for the sake of noise. Give it a pause and fill that space with absolute nothing. Allow your breath to catch the attention for them to hang on to your next words for you to say, I haven't run across that before, but what I am confident about is we can look at X, Y, and Z. That's how you handle fluff. Now uptalk is a little bit different, and I find that it is very dependent on gender most of the time. For men, don't really have this issue, but women do. It's a— it's an uptalk, uh, just because of the way you can tweak the end and sound of your voice. But it certainly happens to the guys too.

I don't want to say it's just a female thing or a male thing at all.

It's not. But it, it sounds like this, and when you have that, people who are in the office and they're talking to you and they go, "Yeah, I think I can do that. I mean, yeah, we can probably get it to you by Friday," like as if you're hanging on to it, as if they're asking for permission in some way. When you say that and you sound like that, it cuts down on your confidence because it sounds like you're not sure. It sounds like you're unclear and you're asking for permission in some way. Think of it this way. This is how I want you to say your words. Ask as if you're asking someone to pass the salt. All right, here over in America, in Texas, if I'm going to ask somebody to pass the salt, I'm going to say, hey, so-and-so, can you pass the salt? Period. You see how my volume, excuse me, my tone there at the end went down? Can you pass the salt? So when you end on a lower note, it sounds more serious. You see that? And instead of saying, it sounds more serious, it sounds more serious. When you uptalk, it sounds like you're asking a question. When you go down, it sounds like you're making a firm statement. So I wouldn't say, hey, can you pass the salt? As if I don't know what salt is or you don't know what salt is. Instead, I say, can you pass the salt? As if I'm assuming, yes, everybody knows what it is. I'm going to keep that cadence flat. And if I can, drop the tone just a little bit at the bottom to make it sound a lot more firm and a lot more confident. All right. This one is— this one's going to step on some toes a little bit. This is word choice. Word choice. What are the words that you're saying to sound confident at any given time? One of the biggest culprits, in my view, is ending your sentence with something that doesn't feel firm. Does that make sense? There it is right there. This element of, does that make sense? Every time you ask that question, you're doing something that is double-sided. Let me explain. If I'm going to tell you something and I make a statement, I say, does that make sense? I'm doing two things. The reason I'm saying that, reason you may be saying that, is because it's this internal fear or insecurity of Maybe the words that I'm saying aren't actually making sense to someone. They're not clear. I'm not communicating well. On the other side, I'm assuming that what I am saying may or may not be making sense to them. So the other person, it could also be offensive in some way to them, especially if you make it after a statement that is very common. Like, I mean, the sky's blue today. Does that make sense? The other person's like, oh yeah, of course, of course it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. You just— it was a plain sentence. There's nothing complicated about that. So in some ways you may be insulting their intelligence by saying, does that make sense? You, you poor pitiful mind, you. Does that— do I need to go a little bit slower for you? So I'm not saying it's all the time, but it definitely runs that risk. I've certainly had it where somebody asks, does that make sense? After a statement where I only say, yes, yes, that makes sense. How else could I have taken that sentence? But I know where it's coming from is this insecurity feeling of, am I saying it right? Am I doing okay? It's best that you eliminate that. All right. Instead of saying, does that make sense? You can replace that with, what are your thoughts? That's it. What are your thoughts? Do you have any questions? Do you have any feedback? My favorite is, what are your thoughts? Instead of, does that make sense? I'm saying, what are your thoughts? I'm inviting communication. I'm inviting continuing the conversation instead of, do we need to stop and set a new paragraph for you to feel comfortable with this? I'm inviting them. What are your thoughts? What do you think? That's it. They might say, I'm good. I don't have any thoughts. That sounds great. Awesome. But at least I'm not assuming that they didn't understand what I said. If I said, does that make sense? So I would get rid of that. Just replace it with, what are your thoughts? Another way to tweak some of your communication to sound more confident is eliminate the word just. I love the word just in my regular day conversation. It's very common. But if I'm going to communicate in front of a group, try to eliminate it. Or if you're going to email somebody, try to eliminate it. Hear the difference. If I text you, or email, or I say to you, hey, I just wanted to check in, I just want to touch base. That sounds almost hesitant, doesn't it? Hey, just want to check in. That sounds almost hesitant versus, hey, I wanted to check in on you, I wanted to touch base. That sounds like I'm leaning into it. I'm not shying away, I'm stepping into it. I wanted to do this versus Hey, I just wanted to, as if I'm just a little bit, don't, I'm not trying to get in your space. Very different. Eliminate that word just because it makes you sound more hesitant in your communication. And that's not the way you want to sound. Another is the way you use adverbs. I'm going to step on a little bit of toes here with this. And that is often when you overuse adverbs, it makes it more fluffy. That where they're really not saying anything. We all have these little tics that we like to say. Maybe we got them from family, maybe we've got them from friends, or wherever you're working, but they cut down on the confidence and assertiveness of your sentences. So here's some words like that: essentially, big culprit, literally, those two alone, basically, anything that ends with -ly. Here is a very common response when somebody is responding to something or answering a question that you're asking. They're going to say, "So essentially, I mean, what we have is..." That means nothing. That means nothing. It's just fluff. Those are comfort words. Those are security blankets that you'd like to have. It's going to be best if you eliminate those. There's not some kind of cure. You just need to find ways to get rid of them. If you ever see an email that says "essentially" or basically, or literally, or any other type of words, understand you can just eliminate them and they're going to be a whole lot better. Remember, if you want to have strong sentences, you need to just serve your words straight every time. The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because number one, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It is a know your worth mentality, and we're going to talk exactly where you need to go in your mind leading up to these conversations. Number 2, get rid of the verbal disclaimers. These are little statements you say before you say what you need to say, like, hey, I'm sorry, but I just feel like maybe— we're going to talk about getting rid of those and how to do it. Number 3, stop justifying the nos. Stop having to feel like you need to explain yourself on and on just because you turn somebody down. When you do that, it takes away slowly from your self-confidence. And I don't want to see that. Now, maybe nobody's told you this, but just because somebody has said something does not mean that it requires a response from you. Just because they throw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing. You just let it go by. There's this idea in our head that because somebody gave us an opinion, we have to give an opinion back. That's just not true. When it comes to standing up for yourself, it is often the person that is not worth your time that you don't need to give attention to. Often, that's the exact opposite of what we do. We find ourselves trying to justify and explain to people that do not matter in our life. The people that rank low in our priority list, but yet we feel like we have to prove something to them every single time that we talk. Eliminate that concern. When people play chess, it's expected that you're going to take a pawn. Nobody freaks out about it. Nobody loses their mind when somebody takes a pawn. Because they know the value is not the pawn. They can take a rook.

Okay.

They want to take a queen. That's different. Understand that there's going to be lots of different conflicts in your, in your life. Lots of different conversations. They are not all the same. The feeling you get by talking with certain people, those friendships, where they rank in relationship to you, they're not all the same. So what I want you to understand is Stop attending every argument that you're invited to. Just because somebody gave an opinion and said something to you, you had the choice of just letting it go, saying, "That does not require any response from me. That is not worth my time." That's why I say it's a know your worth mentality. Before you stand up for yourself and feel like you have to say something, ask the question, "Is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Is this somebody that actually needs part of my energy? Because there is a strength and a wisdom in conserving your energy and protecting your peace. So the next time that happens, I want you to go through that filter and ask yourself, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Because I, I know my worth. And please understand, that goes for anything that they say. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean we're in the business of picking up trash. Let me say that again. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. You can politely tell them where it should go, and it's not going to be on you. So understand that part of protecting your peace is understanding, I know what they're saying is not worth my time. I'm going to take it and set it aside. Personally, what I do in my, my own life is I have a wastebasket, all right? I have a trash bag right next to me in my mind. And if somebody says something I don't like, rather than me feeling like I have to throw it back to them, I have to pick up that trash, that gross nasty thing that they said, and give it right back to them, I just take it and move it over and put it in the trash. You can say like at a computer or a laptop, you just get it, you drag it over, and you put it in the recycling bin, and then you delete it. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to carry it. So understand, just because they throw out garbage at you does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. When you have to advocate for yourself, part of that mindset is knowing how to go into it. Too often there is a hesitancy to say what you need to say. We treat it like it's a— I don't know, what do they have, like the cold plunge? Or a pool that's filled with cold water. If you tiptoe into it, it's much worse. When you don't say what you need to say right out of the gate, and instead you slowly walk into it with these little disclaimers, what I call them. This sounds like, "Hey, you know, I've just been— I just feel like I need to say this, I guess. It's— and maybe I'm talking out of pocket here, but—" You ever heard that? You ever said that before? When you say, "Ah, yeah, I mean, listen, I'm sorry, but maybe, you know, I'm just feeling more like—" You are trying to hesitate saying what you need to say. Like you want to smooth it over. You want to hedge to make sure nobody feels like you're being too direct with it. But when it comes to asserting yourself, when it comes to stating your needs, nobody's going to do it for you. Remember, you're the one that has to be bold and out in the open with it. So think of it as that cold swimming pool. If you walk right into it, it's going to not feel great. It's not going to look smooth. It's not going to feel smooth. You either have two choices: you don't say it at all, or you jump right in. When you see people doing that cold plunge, they don't walk right into it. They don't slowly go into it. They put their whole body into it. So I want you to get used to that idea of, I'm going to put my whole body into this thing. If I have something to say, I'm going to say it. I'm not going to feel like I have to apologize for it. I'm not going to feel like I have to be hesitant and hedge the whole time. If it is something that is on your heart and it is something that is truly asserting your needs in your life, you have one chance, one life, and this is it right here for you to be able to state your peace, assert your needs, and say what you need to say. Now, another part of this is often when it comes to standing up for yourself, it happens in moments where you need to say no to something. You need to turn something down. Maybe somebody's invited you to something, you got offered something, and you need to say no, but you don't know how to say it, and you're just not sure you can advocate that you need to say no. Now, we're going to talk later in this podcast about how to say no to certain things, how to decline something and still be respectful, how to disagree and still be respectful about it in those little bitty specific scenarios. Here, this is the point I'm making of that there are times when you have to say something and they need to hear you say no. And there's a difference between saying no because after the end of it, using that word because to justify it, and just saying no. For example, let's say you ask me a question and I just said, "No." No. Versus, "No, because, you know, I have that thing that we talked about and, you know, I got to make sure that I take care of this and it's just been really busy lately and I've just been so stressed, you know, and so, well, I have that other thing, you know." You see how it's much weaker? All of a sudden, I've added 3 more sentences after the "no" and I've slowly water down the place that I need to assert my needs. If I need to say no to something, I need to say no. So eliminate that habit of always saying no because. It's just no. And if they need to ask other questions, they're free to ask other questions, and you're free to say no again. I want you to feel empowered, all right, on this idea of Just because they asked me something does not mean I have to give them something. Just because they told me something does not mean I have to have an answer for something. Standing up for yourself means that you are in complete peace with who you are and your presence in the conversation, and you know your worth wherever you are in that conversation, or if there should be a conversation at all. So when you need to say no to something, step into that. Don't go with these little verbal disclaimers. You say no to it. You don't say because and add on a verbal— it's like the opposite of a verbal disclaimer. You add in everything afterwards. No, because I'm just feeling X, Y, and Z. You don't need that. The word is no, period. What lots of people like to say, and what I support, is no is a complete sentence. These are what I call dismissive comments in that they are dismissing your feelings, trying to dismiss any consequence of what they said. And in many ways, I want you to see these comments as them trying to control the eventual outcome. Imagine somebody— imagine me just punching you in the arm, and you go, "Ow!" I go, "That didn't hurt." You ever had that happen? Maybe as a kid growing up, or you have a sibling. I know I'm the oldest of 4, and that definitely happen when you're roughhousing, you're wrestling, you do something, you go, that didn't hurt. And they go, what do you mean that didn't hurt? So I want you to imagine that in your mind, that somebody's hit you in the arm and then they tell you that didn't hurt, as if they get to decide that, yeah, I hit you in the arm, but it didn't hurt. So no harm, no foul, right? You are the one that gets to decide that. And we're going to talk about these techniques on each one of these And I want you to emphasize the idea that they don't get to say the outcome. They don't get to say the consequence. You do. They don't get to say what hurts. You do. Right? You with me?

All right, let's go.

So first up is, "I was just joking. I was just joking. That's just a joke." I hear that all the time. I know that you do too. When you get that dismissive comment back to you on something, "I was just joking." Here's what I want you to do. Play off of this. If they want to make it a joke, then it better be funny. So what I like to say is, if somebody tells you, "I'm just joking," you respond, "Then make it funnier. Then make it funnier." Easy as that. That's number 1. Number 2, you could easily say, "Then work on your material or find new material." How about that? Then find new material. In other words, don't be making a joke about me. Don't be making a joke about something else. If they try to say something that is hurtful to you, let's say they made a comment about your looks or your weight or your age or whatever it is, and then you kind of take offense to that and they go, "Hey, it was just a joke, okay?" As if all of a sudden they've taken away any stinger that they have. When they make that kind of stuff, you say, "Well, then find new material." Or, "Was that supposed to be of the funny kind? Was that supposed to be funny?" "Hey, it was just a joke." Then be funnier. Then find new content. Then find new material. Any way that you can play off the word of a joke, it's going to work to your advantage. My favorite is, then be funnier, because it is a reminder right there in that moment of, if you wanted this to be a joke, that's not what it is. This— you can't just tailor a dismissive comment that's meant to be hurtful to me and just call it a joke and make sure everything is— then we're all good. And we're all good. No harm, no foul, like I talked about. When that kind of stuff happens, easily twist it back on them as, was that supposed to be funny, or was that the funny kind of joke? Whenever you can ask those kind of things and put them on their heels to say, that's not going to pass with me. Number 2, one of my least favorite is, don't take it personally. Hey, don't take it personally. Like, come on, then don't say it personally. What do you mean, don't take it personally? You just said it to my face. How can it not be any more personal? It is to me one of the just a total withdrawal of all accountability, of any ability to say, look, that was on me. You know what? I shouldn't have said that instead of this. Don't take it personally. I can't stand that comment. Here is some things that I like to use, and I know you can use them too. I get to decide that. I love that one because it is very immediate and clear where the boundaries are. Somebody says something to you and then they go, don't take it personally. You respond, I get to decide that. It's the whole thing of hitting you in the arm kind of concept of, look, I get to decide to take it personally or not. Don't tell me how to take something. If you're going to send the paper airplane, I have a choice of how I'm going to catch it or if I let it fall. If you're going to throw the ball at me, I get to choose whether I want to catch it or I don't. It's all within my choice. So having that idea of I get to decide that puts you in the control seat every single time. Another that I like to use with don't take it personally is don't say it personally. Don't say it personally, or then say it differently. That one is a comeback that you can use with all kinds of different dismissive comments, but I like that specifically with "don't take it personally" because of it sounds like alliteration in a way. We say personally, differently. They both have the adverb -ly in them, and I feel that they're great at— it's a great little comeback to say, look, if you don't want me to take it personally, then say it differently. Say it again. Say it a different way. It's a very strong, straight-up front to say, look, if you don't want me to take something personally, then try again. Take it— say it differently. Okay, number 3 is, don't be so sensitive. Mm, you heard that one? I know I have. Don't be so sensitive. And to be honest, I've definitely been one that said that too. And that wasn't fair. Say, don't be so sensitive. It is this idea that you go, look, don't— can you just let things go for a bit? I just said something, all right? Do you have to turn everything into a fight? You have to do this. There is a toxic element of that type of dialogue because yes, you want to control the reaction, that's understandable, but That is just part of the battle. That means you're not doing the work up front to think about the consequence of what you're saying or to think about how your words sound. You just expect them to go how you want them to go. You want everybody to react how you expect them to react in your head, and that's not fair. So when you say the phrase, "Don't be so sensitive," understand everybody is sensitive. Everybody is sensitive. It just depends on the topic. It depends on the context. It depends on the environment. So it's subjective to everybody. So let that be what it's going to be. But when they say, don't be so sensitive, one thing that you can do that I love to do is play off the word sense, S-E-N-S-E. Say sense. So they say, don't be so sensitive. No, I'm sensing X, Y, and Z. So if somebody were to say, hey, look, it's just a joke, don't be so sensitive, you can reply, No, I'm just sensing you're not that funny. You see what I mean? If somebody were to say an inappropriate comment and they go, look, don't— like I just said it, don't be so sensitive. You can reply, no, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's appropriate to say. Say, hey, look, it's just a joke. Don't be so sensitive. You can reply, no, I'm just sensing you're not that funny. You see what I mean? If somebody were to say an inappropriate comment and they go, "Don't, like I just said it, don't be so sensitive." You can reply, "No, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's appropriate to say out loud." You feel the difference? Here you're not getting upset. You're not getting defensive. You are playing off of their words. "Oh, don't be sensitive? No, I'm sensing, I'm sensing X, Y, and Z." And that's going to put you in a much better position to stay steady rather than a weaker position. And the key to each one of these replies that I'm suggesting for you to try is that you cannot let yourself become defensive. I know that's easier said than done, but I want you to play it out. If you were to automatically— somebody says, don't be so sensitive, and you're like, sensitive? I'm not sensitive. What are you talking about? That's getting defensive, and all of a sudden you sound weaker and they sound stronger. Let me put it differently. They sound right and you sound wrong. You hear it? If you were to say, I'm not sensitive, what are you talking about? Me? I'm not sensitive. They sound stronger, you sound weaker. Instead, when you can stay exactly where you are and say, no, I'm, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of, of what's okay to say to each other. Oof. I mean, that is a verbal punch. I mean, that is such a stronger position to keep in that instance. So anytime that somebody says, don't take it personally, and you scoff at that, you get upset at that, you look weaker. If they were to say, don't be so sensitive, if they were to say anything else that is a dismissive comment like, "It was just a joke," and you— "A joke? That?" And you start to get— you swell up about it and get defensive and start putting up your walls, the more it looks like you are exactly what they say you are. The more it looks like you're more sensitive. The more it looks like you're taking it literally, that you are everything that they say. So you have to make sure that you keep your breath calm. Right? And I want you to stay exactly where you are. Try your best to not get defensive. It will really, really make a difference. If there's one thing about defensiveness, it's that it's so easy to do. It's just biological. It's natural because anything that you perceive as a threat or a challenge, you fight against. It is natural as part of your fight or flight. On any argument that you're going to have, there are two sides. There is an ignition side and a cooling side of it, and that ignition is triggered by things that trigger you. So anytime somebody challenges your opinion or disagrees with you, your body perceives that as a threat that says, "I don't like that." Somebody gives you an opinion and you disagree, your body says, "I don't like that." when somebody's telling you what to do, your body goes, "I don't really like that." So every time that happens, there is a desire to push back against it. If somebody's telling you, "You need to go do this," you automatically want to go, "No, I don't." If somebody says, "Oh, you were behaving this way last night. You were in a bad mood last night," you automatically want to go, "No, I wasn't. Who are you to tell me how I was or how I'm feeling or what to do?" we preserve that element of autonomy within ourselves. And so anytime you feel defensiveness, it is just so reactionary and it's nearly impossible to stop from the get-go. But there are some tips and techniques that I'm going to give you to make sure that you know how to handle it in the moment. Number 1, to keep yourself from getting defensive, let their words fall to the ground. This is what I mean. In case you forgot, other people's words are not your responsibility to carry. It's not tennis or volleyball. You don't have to throw anything back. So instead, you're just gonna take a breath, imagine that their words fall to the ground, and you get to decide whether to pick 'em up or just leave them there. And you're gonna find more often than not, you just wanna leave them there. Number 2, get rid of beginning your sentence with you. When it comes to responding in an argument, the word you is very triggering because it's you telling them what to do, how they should behave, what they need to say, what they need to do, and they're going to get defensive. So instead of "you," we're going to tweak that to start with "I." When you start with "I," it's not nearly as triggering. Number 3, you're going to use phrases that help dampen defensive responses. Responses like, "I agree, that's something that we should consider," or, "That's helpful for me to know, thank you." When you use those phrases, it's telling them that they're getting acknowledged and they're not going to get defensive. What I try to do when somebody tells me something and I can tell that I'm getting defensive, I try and imagine like what they just told me was a piano note. All right, you ever heard somebody just hit one key on the piano and they just leave their finger there and you just let that note sustain, is what they call it? You let that note just end by itself to where it eventually just falls and drops. The note is no longer heard. It— that's how I imagine it. So when somebody says something that I don't like, instead of having this very reactionary response, this very defensive response that I know is not worth my energy and time, I picture in my mind that it has fallen. The words just fell out of their mouth and they're on the ground, and I get to look at them and go, is this worth my time? Is this worth my energy? Often when I start to get involved in it and I'd start to pick it up, I tell myself this phrase that what I use small talks, and that is I tell myself, put it down, Jefferson. Put it down, Jefferson. It's not worth your time. What are you doing? Put it down. I say those things to myself and it helps me. It controls my emotions when I can inject my breath, let my breath be the first thing that I say and have that slow reaction and go, you know what? No, I don't have to send that back. I don't have to hit that back over the net. I don't have to take a swing at this. Just let it go by. There's, there's not an umpire. Just let them have a bad pitch. They threw a ball, so what? You don't swing at them. You don't swing at those. So when I have that kind of mentality, it, it helps me in a very specific way because defensive behavior is just biological. It is innate with in every one of us that we naturally want to defend things. We want to defend our intelligence. We want to defend our credibility. We want to defend our own ideas and opinions. And when somebody is conflicting with those, we want to put our wall up, to put our shield up, to protect that. That's why so often when you start to say things and you can tell somebody's fighting and fighting and fighting, they are defending against their own ideas. They are protecting their house, so to speak. That's why that whole idea of having something to learn instead of something to prove, having something that's open rather than something that's pointing at them, is going to open up the dialogue so much better and not going to have these defensive reactions. So anytime that somebody tells you something and you start to feel that tension in your body that's preparing you for that fight or flight. Just imagine that their words are falling to the ground. You're going to take a few seconds and decide for yourself, is this something I need to respond to? And in truth, it's a cycle, what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I say something and they get defensive, well, more often than not, they're going to say something back and then I'm going to get defensive. And all of a sudden, we're just saying things that are hurting each other, and we both have our walls up. When it comes to defensive behavior, one of the worst things you can do is begin your sentence with "you." If I were to tell you right now, "You seem like you're in a bad mood," or if I were just to be very blunt, "You're in a bad mood," most likely you're going to disagree with me, or you're going to correct me, or you're going to adjust what I just told you. You're going to say, "No, no, I'm not." "Or, well, I know, I'm just, I'm irritated right now." You're not going to accept that I said you're in a bad mood because "you" is assumption-based. It is trying to tell somebody what they're doing, what they need to be doing. "You're not listening to me." It gets people defensive because what they want to say is, "Yes, I am. I am listening to you." Versus me saying, "I feel like you're not listening to me." I feel like I'm not being heard. When you change you to I, it's not nearly as defensive because I'm not assuming that you're doing anything. If I were to say, you don't even care, you don't care, automatically you're gonna— what you're thinking inside is, yes, I am, I do care. People don't like to be told that they are something or they feel a certain way or they're doing something. We don't like that. So when you Just easily turn it from— instead of beginning your sentence with "you," change it to "I." Change it to "I." It's just— it's that easy. I can't make it any more simple than that. When somebody's getting defensive, the most likely culprit is because you started a sentence with "you." I'm also guilty of that. All right? Anytime that somebody's getting defensive in an argument with me or a conversation, I can go back in my mind and go, "I started that sentence with 'you.'" I shouldn't have done that. When I rephrase it with an I and say, hey, can I start over? I feel like I wasn't heard. I'm beginning with I, and it's going to smooth it out a whole lot better. So easiest transition here is anytime you say something to keep somebody from getting defensive, instead of you, just replace it with I. Instead of you can't talk to me like that, it's I don't respond to that volume. I don't respond to that tone. You make it about you yourself as a saying, "I, I feel this way," and take it away from that other person, and they're not going to get defensive. Now, I also want to make sure that I equip you with some phrases that are going to help dampen defensive behavior. If you're already in that argument and things are already going, and you go, "Oh man, I really need to just calm things down for a second," here's some phrases that I want you to use real quick. One of my favorites is beginning your sentence with "I agree." Now listen to me. I'm not saying that you're agreeing with what they said, all right? Instead, you're just agreeing that the discussion needs to be had. Instead of thinking micro, go macro. So if somebody's communicating, instead of saying, getting all defensive and arguing with them, I can just say, "I agree that this is worth discussing." You feel automatically that's just gonna settle the conversation. It's gonna smooth it out. They're gonna lower their voice, lower their tone. The spikes are going to be as pointy. Just say, hey, I agree we need to talk about this. Simple as that. Begin your sentence with, I agree. I agree that this subject is worth discussing. You hear how different that is? They're going to feel acknowledged, like, okay, this is— I'm not having to fight. I don't have to fight and put up all the spikes all the time. Another that I like to use is, that's helpful to know. Tell them that they've been helpful And when somebody feels like they've been helpful, it feels like they're involved in their own mutual understanding, that they have helped teach you things. That's why I also like using the phrase "what I've learned." By listening to you right now, I've learned I have some work to do, or I've learned that this topic is really important to you. That's one I've used often. I've learned that this topic is important to you. Just by them hearing "I've learned," they feel like they've taught something, and it's going to lower is going to lower all the walls because now they feel like they're on the same playing field. They don't have to continue to pick up their sword and fight and cut and slash to defend their property, defend their own ideas and opinions. Instead, when you use these phrases like, "I agree this is worth talking about," or, "That's helpful for me to know," or, "I've learned that this is important to you," those are all going to quickly put out a lot of fires for you.

What are some ways that people can have the most success in getting what they want in— and let's, and let's keep it within a marriage or within a romantic relationship. So you're wanting to agree on a budget. And you have one person who is more of the, like, I want to save all our money so we can go on exotic vacations every year. And we have the other person who's like, I don't want to have a budget because I feel frustrated by it, or I feel enclosed by— like a prisoner to the money. I don't want to be told how much to spend. And so you don't have agreement. How do you— how would you encourage either of those people to approach that conversation with a negotiation mindset? That's hard.

You have always—

there's a spender and a saver, right, in the, in the relationship. In my relationship, I'm the spender. My wife's the saver. She'll pinch a penny into a dime down here. Whereas I'm like, if I want it, I feel like I— that's what I— if I can afford it, that's what I want. The best way I have found to have those kind of discussions One is you frame it of, is this something you want to talk about? Because if not, then we need to add in somebody else. I think marriage counseling is healthy. I don't have any problem with adding a third party into the mix. Because oftentimes, especially with money, it becomes a quicksand for significant relationship issues. I think money leads oftentimes to divorce in many ways. So I have no problem with adding somebody into the mix. But let's say that's— we'll set that aside. If you want to be most persuasive in a negotiation, I really like to use the phrase, what's the chance? You can really use that in any context. What's the chance that you and I can talk about our finances without us yelling? What's the chance? What's the chance that you and I can sit down tonight after the kids go to bed and line out a budget for the month. So that often is just a quick warm-up to say, let me gauge your temperature right now. So what's the chance? But you can really use that for anything. You want to get a— you want to see if you can get an upgrade at the hotel, you know, what's, what's the chance? What's the chance there's any other better rooms available? Any, anything like that. So what's the chance always works at a restaurant, what's the chance they have any of this left? In terms of trying to get them more to buy in seriously with— they don't want to sit down, they don't want to do this— you got to show them the benefit of what they can get if they do. Goals are very enticing even for them. If we sit down and save and you don't go to Starbucks, you know, but once a week, This is what we can, this is what we can do. So I think goals are even important in this context. There's not really a set of words that are going to make them sit down and be serious. I think you need to have conversations about their seriousness first and then make sure that's good and then go to the next level of, all right, well, now let's start talking about the, the budget and what you're willing to work on. I find that negotiations only go well if you, you get— you understand them first. So that means you're asking questions of what's your own personal feelings on how you— when we get money and you see that we have money in, what goes through your brain? What are you thinking about? Understand how they think so that they open up more, and then you have more understanding of where to go from there. Because when you get into the, when you get in the habit of like, I don't, I don't understand you. I can't get how you think. I don't know. How could you not think this? You're such an idiot. You're going to block them off. They're going to get defensive and they're not going to want to do anything with your budget. Yeah.

Or, or other things, right? I mean, that's a huge thing that just pushes the other person away in general. Yeah, I agree. Do people ever ask you, like, what's the 5 secret phrases that can just transform my communication and get me or help me get whatever I want?

Nobody's asked me like that before, but I can give you a few that I like to use. Let's hear them. Number 1 is maybe so. So anytime you get something to defend, to keep yourself from getting defensive, makes somebody else die down. When you hear something that's going to make you want to— oh yeah, what about you? Whenever you feel that feeling, you say, well, maybe so. Boom. Instantly just diffuses. It's done. What else can they say? Uh, you know, they feel like, okay, satisfied of, all right, well Okay, he's at least considered it. But yeah, but you in it the same way, I'm not taking it on. Well, maybe, maybe so. It's having that, what I just consider a flexible mindset, that growth mindset. If you're, if you're too loose, there's chaos, right? If you're too rigid, you're not letting anything in and out. But if you can have some flexibility of, well, maybe you're right. So I like, maybe so, maybe you're right. That's also one that I use very frequently is maybe you're right. I'm giving the possibility that I could certainly be wrong. People love that. Like, they cannot get enough of the idea that you're considering. In any context, they're like, oh my gosh, well, so whenever you tell somebody, oh, maybe 'Hey, maybe you're right.' Oof, it hits them because they heard the word 'right,' which satisfies them.

Right next to the word 'you.' Correct. Yeah.

And they don't really hear the 'maybe' part. They just hear the 'you're right.' Yeah. At the same time, you're recognizing that you could certainly be wrong. Another phrase I like to use is 'I could be better.' I can do that better. I could have done that better. I'll be better. Any phrases like that help significantly. Oftentimes, especially towards the end of an argument, it's a great way of creating a bridge to connect to the other person. So I've had somebody, I've had multiple people actually tell me they love that phrase. One was a lady who, she messaged me and said, at the end of this argument with my husband, mind you, we've been married like 12 years. At the end of the argument, I said, I can be better. And he responded, I can be better too. She said, I've never heard that from this man in all of our years of marriage. So when you just acknowledge yourself, of, hey, I could be better, because it's always true, right? No matter what, you can always be just that 1% better. Absolutely. That's enough of acknowledgement of, you know what, that's— this wasn't my best. Next time I can be better. I'll work on that. And oftentimes they, they say the same thing. I love those. Yeah.

What is it about your background as a lawyer that has given you this that is such a unique skill set?

Um, it's a little bit a mix of my own personality and law. Like, law school teaches you how to read the law, it doesn't teach you how to read people. And so I think some of that is just a natural inclination of my own personality. If I were to say what trial experience does as an attorney, meaning you're dealing with litigation, parties, courtrooms, hearings is that it allows you to see the conflict. It's very easy to kind of, instead of being right up in it, it's that power of detachment of I can see the communication happening while I'm talking to that person as if I'm watching it from a movie. And having that wherewithal helps you go, now this is how I need to tweak this, this is how I need to prepare this. Because when you're dealing with that difficult witness on the stand and you have 12 jurors who are watching, a judge, a bailiff, and court reporter, you're not just thinking of your next sentence. You have to think of how it looks in the entire picture. What's it going to make not just that person feel, as you would in regular communication, it's all the more important that it's how the others are going to feel about that interaction. So that's, that's where it comes into this power of seeing it from a third-person point of view.

Hmm, so how should we seek to make others feel about us when communicating? Is it all about just garnering likeness? Or like, how should we approach each interaction? Like, is it we want this person to like us, we want this person to respect us? I mean, maybe there are some people out there that appreciate being feared by others, which I think sounds actually quite pathologic. Yeah, but, but yeah, like, what is what should be the goal of— I mean, I guess it might differ context, you know, in different contexts. But like, yeah, what is the goal of like a healthy communication style?

Any healthy communication style is one where everybody is, for the most part, a balance. So there's not too much pressure from you and not too much pressure from me. It's not that you want everybody to like you. Now, that's an innate thing, I think, within all of us. Like, when you meet somebody new, meeting you for the first time today, there's always an intrinsic part of me is I want this person to like me, vice versa. And how you communicate, to me, the only way to do that is to be as authentic as possible. When somebody is trying to be somebody they're not, we sense it. Like, when somebody's on the stand The jurors have a sixth sense of if that person's being genuine or not. You can see it on social media. Somebody does a post and you go, I don't— there's something about this that feels off. It feels fake. They feel like they're trying to gain maybe sympathy, or maybe somebody is faking an emotion. Anytime you try to pour icing too much on somebody— if all I did was just compliment how great you were and how wonderful you are, it sounds good for a second, but then you go, ah, that's— the more you say, the less I believe. Yeah. And there's this element of now something about this is a facade, surface of some sort. And what I teach and what I outline in the book is when you want to communicate truly, it's all about path of connection. Instead of always seeing things as a conflict, it's a way to connect to somebody. And you do that by one, saying things with control. I mean, you're controlling your— not just your own body, but acknowledging and being able to recognize the symptoms in other people. Two is to say things with confidence, to be able to assert yourself in ways that you can speak your needs more directly. Because I think that's a crucial element of real communication, is when you are having that heart-to-heart, when I can share that and say things to you directly without feeling rude or that I'm taking advantage of you or manipulating the situation. And lastly, you say it to connect, meaning you handle that difficult difficult conversation with one that you feel like you really stood your ground on, or you feel like you represented yourself, rather than feeling like you always regretted that conversation. Because we've all had those difficult ones where after you got done, you go, God, that went terrible, or I don't feel like I represented myself well. And that's, I think that's the way that you, you try to handle almost any conversation you can. Yeah.

And it speaks so much, I think, to the times that we live in where, you know, we're seeing now that long-form conversations by way of podcasting has really supplanted in many ways legacy media, the media of the past, you know, couple of decades, right, century almost, you know, where the communication style was inherently inauthentic, you know, like, um, local news reporters. I mean, they speak a certain way, and the way that they speak, right, is not how any other normal human being speaks.

It's not even how they speak.

It's not even how they speak. Yeah, exactly.

I think you're right.

I, I believe that when COVID hit, it changed a lot because you saw, you know, where the communication style was inherently inauthentic, you know, like, um, local news reporters. I mean, they speak a certain way, and the way that they speak, right, is not how any other normal human being speaks.

It's not even how they speak.

It's not even how they speak. Yeah, exactly.

I think you're right.

I, I believe that when COVID hit, it changed a lot because you saw people for who they were. You saw, um, people just posting from their phone, hair all messed up, just rolled out of bed, um, I mean, messy bun, the whole thing. They're just real. And slowly I think we're transitioning more to wanting to see the real, not the polish, not people for who they were. You saw, um, people just posting from their phone, hair all messed up, just rolled out of bed, um, I mean, messy bun, the whole thing. They're just real. And slowly I think we're transitioning more to wanting to see the real, not the polish, not the fake, the facade. They truly want to feel that. I mean, a lot of your most followed creators that are not celebrities, the fake facade. They truly want to feel that. I mean, a lot of your most followed creators that are not celebrities, they don't have— I mean, if you see ones of somebody putting on their makeup, right? I mean, that's what a lot of women do, and it's real. Or guys that are just getting done with some kind of workout, or they're talking about kids stuff. They don't have— I mean, if you see ones of someone putting on their makeup, right? I mean, that's, that's what a lot of women do. And it's, it's real. Or guys that are just getting done with some kind of workout, or they're talking about kids stuff. It's, uh, people are looking for the real. Same in communication. They just want the real. It's, uh, people are looking for the real. Same in communication. They just want the real.

Do you lose respect faster when you can tell somebody's not respecting themselves, or when somebody says something disrespectful to you? You lose respect faster when you can tell somebody's not respecting themselves or when somebody says something disrespectful to you?

When somebody says something disrespectful to you. If you don't respect yourself, that's a place for me to show you grace and kindness and patience. Like, yeah, I'll give you time. Grace and kindness and patience. Like, yeah, I'll give you time for that. I understand. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that. For that, I understand. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that. This is what I'm thinking. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that, but I'm gonna let it go. You know you shouldn't have said it. Versus if they say something like much uglier that was only meant to hurt— again, it depends on context. But yeah, you can lose you can lose respect for them much faster when they choose harm over healing.

Do you think conflict can be settled at all through text messages or online messaging, or do you think with— when it comes to friendships, professional relationships, romantic relationships, it's always going to be best to hop on the phone, video chat, in-person meeting?

Yeah, I mean, they can be if you and the person are mature and intelligent and give each other the benefit of the doubt and not make a, you know, mountain out of a molehill. But if you're not, or if you don't know each other that well, always much wiser to just pick up the phone, let them hear your voice. That makes a, a big difference.

I, I, I do it—

I mean, I do it all the time. Text, text with my wife and Oof, I got a response that felt very cold. Anytime you get the K text, it's just a K. Oh well, okay, they're ready to destroy me. You know, my life is over. I just got a K or an MK, an MK. Like there's all different ways that we go, oh, that doesn't sound good. It depends on the person. Like my dad, my dad will just text okay to anything really you send him. I just know that's him, and I'll call him and he'll be like, oh, that's fantastic.

But, you know, the text you got—

so it just depends on the person. But yeah, you're never going to go wrong getting to hear their voice. And besides, a lot of times, like, hearing your voice can make somebody's day. We, we were— we are meant to hear and connect and speak as humans. It's not good for humans not to talk to other humans. I was always— there's that show I forgot what it's called. It's like they go up, they send them to Alaska for like, say, spend 100 days alone in Alaska. Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And at first they love it. They're so excited. They build their shelter. They're like, oh yes, I just harvested this rabbit and I'm doing all this. But by like 20 days, they're like, I haven't spoken to anybody. I miss my friends. I miss hearing people's voices. It's the loneliness that gets them. It's not their capability. I just found that really interesting.

What are some subtle ways that people can sound more intelligent when they're speaking? I think sometimes people, when they'll say, when you'll hear people say, if somebody says like a lot or um, that they don't sound as intelligent. I say like a lot and um, and I'm like, I think I still am pretty smart, but I know I could get better. So what are your thoughts on just some some subtle ways people can improve.

Yeah, you want to try to eliminate filler words the best you can, but it depends on context. So if you and I are just talking and I'm just being casual, say like and um as much as you want. But if you're in front of a presentation, a group of people, and you need to persuade, like and um become distractions. That's the problem. It's not that they're not comfortable— everybody uses them— it's that they're distractions. And that distraction is telling you I'm not confident, I'm not knowledgeable, I'm nervous. And people start to pick up on those little bitty things. So all you need to do is just replace that filler with silence and you sound a thousand times more confident. Then it sounds intentional. But yeah, it doesn't mean that there's something bad about them. I mean, I use them in just normal everyday speech, but it's when you want to when you're on a different level of conversation with somebody, that it makes a difference. So if you're like my boss or something—

you see how I just said that?

If you're like my boss, then if I need to approach you about a salary or whatever, I come up to you and I say, um, yeah, okay, so like, I am— okay, here's the thing. I like am really concerned about my You've lost them. You just wasted 12 seconds of them going, okay, whatever is coming out of your mouth, I'm already not wanting to hear it. Or if you say, hey, I hate to bother you. Great, you just told them what I'm about to do is bother you. So buckle in. There's these just phrases and ways to talk that they're not going to be the best foot forward if you want to come off with confidence.

So the best way is just to be direct. Like, if you were talking to your boss and you wanted a raise, saying something like, hey, I want to talk to you about something that's super important to me.

I would even make it more specific. I'd like to talk to you about my salary. When's the best time we can visit? Okay. Yeah, just right out of the gate, and there's no question. Because you have to think of it from their point of view, as somebody who's of the employer's side. What are they thinking? They don't want to be blindsided either. Uh, so why do you make it to where you wait until you're face to face for them to have any clue of what you're talking about? You need to be able to prep them for that conversation. You need to let them massage it, let them think about things. So the more specific, the better.

And you think it's better just to lead with that out of the gate? Sometimes people will put a buffer at the beginning, like, hey, hope you're doing well, hope you had a great weekend, hope that blah blah blah.

Yeah, you just think it's just be direct with it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because they know that doesn't matter. They know it. It's the same way with delivering bad news. Right? If you're going to deliver bad news, same— delivering bad news is the same way of delivering sensitive— want to have a sensitive conversation with somebody. If you are— I need to deliver bad news and I say, hey, so how are you? So how you been? I know. Yeah. You doing good? You feeling all right? Okay. Okay. Well, I got some things to tell you and I mean, they're just going— just making them twist off in the wind of going, okay, what's happening? What's going on here? Are you quitting? Are you not quitting? What's going on? Versus if you come out right out of the gate, you know, with bad news, they say this— you just go, I got bad news, and give it a 2-second beat. I need to let you go. Well, now they know. Great. But if you have need to have a sensitive conversation about something, it's much easier to say, hey, I need to talk to you about what you said at the party on Friday. When's a good time to talk? That'd be very specific. And then, then they know, then they're prepared instead of just the vague text, we need to talk, period. Nobody likes that. Nobody loves that text. We need to talk. Talk about what? Yeah, be more specific.

And if the other person doesn't respond to that, do you give them any time window before, like I mean, like, for instance, like, if it's a relationship situation, you're texting somebody like, hey, I'd like to speak with you about what you said to me on Friday, and they don't respond to you about it, or they beat around the bush or whatever. Do you follow up with them about it in a few days, a few, like, a week? Like, how does, how do you handle that?

Because sometimes that does happen. Yeah, well, it depends how much that person matters to you, but the fact that they don't want to interact should mean maybe you've made a mistake. On how high up that person is on your priority list or how important you are to that person. Because often, you know, people, people will want you for what you give them, not the other way around. And so if they're not willing to talk with you and reason with you and, and empathize with you and listen, they may not be your person. They, they just, they might just want to use you for whatever. I feel like if they're not one to engage, that is a big red flag of they don't value you as much as you think they do, which is a hard realization. How some people just might— they might miss the text, they might not get it, they might try and push it off. But understand, if it's important to you, it should be important to them.

If I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation, if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about, if I was somebody that wants to come across as being high value, what do you think is the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you?

It's a feeling, and that feeling is warmth. If you really want to portray confidence, there's the temptation to feel like you have to be big. You need to be right in their face. Hey, high energy, high impact all the time. That does not convey confidence right away. It conveys desperation. It might convey eagerness. It might convey too much. So if somebody's just— you're sitting with me, uh, or with anybody, and you come on super strong, that might throw off the equilibrium of the conversation, or it's going, oh, this is, this is, this is too much. I'm just getting to, to know you. So it's much more easier if you think about the feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you. So if I want to portray confidence, it's to slow down my words, to make sure that I don't uptalk with things. It's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention. I'm not looking around the room. I'm focused right with you. My chin's up, I'm not looking down, my shoulders are back, and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy.

Why do you think people come on too strong in conversations?

A desire to be loved, a desire to be liked, a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else. It's just overcompensating. Most of the time. If somebody is— you're wanting to project high energy, it's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people, you're speaking to a bigger audience. Got it, you need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a much bigger number of people. But if it's just one person, you don't need to come on that strong. It's much easier just to meet them where they are. In other words, I don't have to come parachute into the conversation. I just need to walk up and shake your hand, and they need to feel that in your voice and your tone and your tenor and how that operates.

Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time, the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was because I was so miserable with who— with the person that I was. I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me, um, because of the way that I was feeling. And then what I realized is, you know, most people aren't really paying attention to that. You actually look more unconfident when you're trying to, you know, fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation. Like, I'm wondering— I know for me it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms: fitness, my relationship to myself, my personal relationships, purpose, and so on. That, that allowed me to be able to I think, sit here and be able to have these conversations like this. Do you think that for you personally, is that the way to appear more high value, you know, high level of self-respect, etc.? Or is it just exposure therapy through practice, through having conversations like this?

It's a comfort with yourself. Exposure helps just by repetition. You can only know so much. It has to have application, but it comes from within. I see this a lot of time at a jury trial. So as a litigator, I go to court and often I will have a witness or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors in the jury want them to be. They need to portray some— maybe they need to portray sympathy. Hoping to gather sympathy from the jury. But people have a sixth sense about them. We can just tell. There's no way to really put words to it, but it's very easy to go, that person is not being true to who they are. Something is off. Something is— I can't describe it, but I can just feel it. I can hear it. You know it when you see it. And so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are. But that typically draws away. It rarely, if ever, gives you the outcome that you want. Authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside. Leave the window fronts for shopping, but don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality because eventually, it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down. Because after a while, it's just going to be friction, and that's going to have a rub, and that's going to get worn, and that's going to be hard to— you're going to have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to be who you are now.

Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right? Where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do. And people can pick up on that right away. But, I will say I think on the opposite end of that, I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell they're struggling, they got something going on, they have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias. And, people who walk with and looking at the ground when they're walking because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident. So, Do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident, how— in your experience, like, what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person, which can be easy for people to pick up on right away.

It's a, it's a balance, and that balance is specific to context, it's specific to the situation, and a lot of different factors. There's this fear, and it's, it's a, it's a type of psychological threat of identity, and that makes you quite feel down to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always always needing to be the person to say something. Often the person who says the most knows the least. You've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on. But the confident person, the authentic person, knows that they don't have anything to prove. So the advice is understand you have nothing to prove. Your value is exactly what your value is. You don't dilute it by saying too much. You don't undervalue it by not saying enough. So it's this, this understanding of, I don't have anything to prove, not with my words, not with my actions. I know exactly who I am. And that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively. It allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more, when your words are more concentrated, when you say less. Confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything. They don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind. The person who's the most knowledgeable in the room, typically in that board meeting, is the one who says the least. And so it's always the reverse of what we originally think.

You have this line about getting a no Isn't the end of a conversation, it's the beginning. What is the importance of getting to know in an argument or a conversation?

Yeah, you know, we didn't even realize how significant that was when we first wrote the book. You know, the book's a collaboration between me and my son Brandon, Brandon Voss, uncredited co-author Tal Raz. And Tal's doing his best there and did a phenomenal job capturing our thoughts and putting in our voice. But like, When somebody says no, something happens to them, the person who utters the word no versus the person who hears it. The person who says no feels safe and protected. And so that's how that becomes the beginning of the conversation because having feel like they protected themselves and they feel safe, then they're more open to dialogue. They're more open to listening. You're not a threat or the issue isn't a threat. This Pavlovian response to uttering the word no that opens people up. And that's why in so many cases, if you're willing to give it the space, no will start the conversation.

Do you find that it's just because, I mean, as we were little kids, I mean, for anybody listening, I know if you have your own kids or you remember being a kid, we just have a gut reaction and go no. Even if you know, like, to my son, this is your favorite meal. What are you talking about? And he's just, no. Or my daughter just decides she no longer loves strawberries. I'm like, you couldn't eat enough strawberries yesterday. It is this sense inside of us where maybe it's just our own independence. Where do you think that comes from, this desire for us to immediately just go, no, I'm going to go for what's safe, and that's not filling me right now, I need to just say no.

Yeah, well, it's an interesting question. I mean, the parental dilemma is your kids don't do what you tell them to do, they do what they see you do. Yeah. And your kids saw you say no. You know, your kids see you say no to them all the time, and that's how you assert your autonomy and control of the situation. So they want to be like you. They're seeing you say no. And they're like, oh, okay, saying no is a way to assert my autonomy, to protect myself, to gain control of my environment. It makes me feel good to say it. And that's what's happening. Right.

And that's really what's happening.

Just, it feels good to say it. I think that explains it perfectly. You have a way of, which is brilliant, of asking questions to get to a no. For those listening to us right now, what is the importance of flipping a question to get to a no rather than finding a way for them to say yes to it? Yeah, that's it.

And that is the craziest thing. So it's kind of like a two-step explanation, maybe three-step. Everybody's been bamboozled with yes, the yes momentum, momentum selling. Ask them three questions, three different questions. The answer to each question is a micro-agreement or a tie-down. And would you like to make more money? Would you like to live in a bigger house? You know, they seemingly, and there may have been a point in time where this worked. And I think everybody has been hustled by this at some point in time in their life before you realize that you were being led down a path. And you got led down the path so many times, Then your gut instinct, oh, last time somebody tried to get me to say yes, you know, they, they ended up trapping me. And so then you have a Pavlovian response. You know, Pavlov's dog, the bell rings, they feed. Then every time the bell rings, the dog salivates. Well, every time somebody tries to get you to say yes, they, they led you down a path.

There was a trap.

There was a bear trap there that, all right, so the minute somebody's trying to get me to say yes, there's a trap. So there's a, is a psychological Pavlovian response. So as stupid as that and true as it sounds, it seems stupid that the opposite would be true, that people feel safe when they say no and they'll open up. And but in point of fact, they do. We were, we were teaching this. We're doing a course for a company that does business with hospitals probably about 5 years ago. And this woman in the head of their sales is trying to get the head nurse of this particular hospital to accept a system, have been a yes-oriented approach. And she says, look, this woman is in a no mode. She says no to everything I say. So I'm like, all right, flip your questions. She's like, no, that's not going to work. That's stupid. I mean, if I just reword it and she says no, it's going to change things. And so she got up out of the room, left the training, went to the hallway, sent the head nurse a text. Are you against implementing this program? The head nurse immediately texts her back, says, no, just let me know what we have to do to move forward. And she comes walking back in a room with her phone in her hand. She can't believe what's on. She says, you guys are not going to believe what just happened. And so people have conditioned themselves that when they say no, they're safe. And they're willing to entertain stuff that they've been blocking previously just because saying yes scared them.

I think that's just so cool.

I mean, just how funny to use how our minds naturally work. I mean, for a wonderful positive way, it's just finding how, you know, our own idiosyncrasies and our defaults of saying no. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, Click right here and I'll meet you there.

People, it's leave the window fronts for shopping, but don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality, because eventually it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down, because after a while it's just going to be friction, and that's going to have a rub, and that's going to get worn, and that's going to be hard to you're going to have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to be who you are now.

Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right, where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do. And people can pick up on that right away. But I will say, I think on the opposite end of that, I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell like they're struggling, they got something going on, they have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but. But for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias. And people who walk with and looking, you know, at the ground when they're walking, because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident. So do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident, how, in your experience, like what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person which can be easy for people to pick up on right away?

It's a balance and that balance is specific to context, it's specific to the situation and a lot of different factors. There's this fear And it's a type of psychological threat of identity. And that makes you question, what if they don't like me? What if they don't like who I am? Is who I am enough in this moment? And that causes you to have maybe not the weak handshake, but it causes you to feel down, to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always Always needing to be the person to say something. Often the person who says the most knows the least. You've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's