This 3 Question Rule Stops Fights Instantly | Jefferson Fisher
In this extended interview, Jefferson Fisher shares a suite of communication strategies he uses at home, in his legal practice, and in leadership contexts, aiming to prevent arguments and foster healthier dialogue. He begins by describing the overload spouses feel when returning from high‑stress work, and introduces a personal "3‑question rule" that limits immediate inquiries, paired with a transition ritual (changing clothes, hugging children, turning off the phone) to shift from work mode to family mode. Fisher outlines an active‑listening toolkit—mirroring the last few words, suppressing the urge to formulate a response while the other person talks, and treating the conversation as an exam—to improve retention and empathy. He advocates using a breath as the first word of any reply to create a pause that regulates nervous systems and controls conversational pace. A TSA anecdote illustrates how calm, questioning responses can defuse rude or condescending behavior. He stresses framing questions to avoid defensive triggers, using curiosity‑based prompts instead of "why". Fisher then delves into relational dynamics, emphasizing quick apologies and taking responsibility for one’s own communication to keep arguments short, especially with his attorney spouse. He introduces a values‑driven approach to conversations, highlighting kindness as a core value and the "bridge or lighthouse" metaphor: if a relationship can’t be repaired (bridge), remain a steady, positive presence (lighthouse). He links self‑worth to the internal dialogue one listens to, warning that doubts amplified by external criticism erode confidence. Fisher presents a three‑step apology formula—express remorse, acknowledge the other’s feelings, and commit to a concrete future action—while cautioning against using "but" which undermines sincerity. He offers a practical workaround: separate the apology and the additional statement into distinct sentences. The conversation moves to handling insincere apologies, urging listeners to call out deflection and demand ownership of specific actions. Fisher describes the "emotional sand trap" of thin‑skinned individuals who manipulate others by demanding apologies, and advises setting boundaries and distancing oneself from such dynamics. He shares negotiation tactics inspired by Chris Voss, such as asking "what’s the chance?" or "I need a miracle" to create playful, open‑hearted requests without appearing manipulative. Finally, Fisher warns against the mindset of needing to prove oneself in every argument, likening it to a slot‑machine addiction that yields frequent small wins but drains long‑term relationships and success. Throughout, he frames his advice within the three core rules from his book—speak with control, confidence, and connection—offering listeners actionable tools to transform conflict into constructive dialogue.
Chapters
I have a newsletter, in case you didn't know, where I send out a weekly communication tip right into your inbox, totally for free. And in response, every once in a while, in fact daily, I will get questions from people. I've pulled some of these that I wanted to talk with you about. They're awesome people that have awesome questions. I want to get right to them. This first one is Mac from Michigan. Here's Mac's question: My spouse carries a lot of stress from work. When he's very stressed out, Me asking a question can trigger a reactionary response. All I can say is, I'm just asking a question, and then I shut down. How can I respond better? Mac, I, I understand, because as soon as I saw your email, this, this hits home. This hits home for me. So I am a practicing attorney, and then I have this communication advice that I love to share, and that's a passion. And then my wife is also a practicing attorney. She does educational law, totally different world. Than me. But when we get home, yes, it is— you're like any other husband and wife. There are questions that she gives me as soon as I come in the door, or there's times when I'm asking her questions. So I'm about to wade into some topics, y'all, that you may not agree with. You might go, ah, that's not for me. That's fine. This is what I'm about to tell you is what works for me. This is not a replacement for couples therapy. It's not a replacement for any kind of therapy. Let's be clear about that. So, Mac, this is what— let me, let me give you first a perspective of what could be happening to your husband. And I'm just saying this from my point of view. Whenever I come in the door, I am— I have finished my day. I'm driving and I get home finishing a whole lot of high-level tasks, tasks that— big decisions for my clients, big decisions for me, big things that I took a lot of processing, a lot of mental energy. Maybe I switch between doing a podcast, dealing with some issue at the office, at my law firm, and even switching between tasks. It just drains my battery really quickly. And when I get home and I walk in the door, and if the first thing is questions like, hey, did you remember to call the plumber. Hey, what do you want to do for dinner? What do you want the plan to be for next Saturday? It feels like I am back into decision mode. Let me tell you why.
It—
as a husband, this is, this is not Jefferson communicator guy, this is Jefferson husband. I feel like I am going to fail my, my family in that situation because I'm mentally not there. The questions, even though I know, Mac, you ask questions that are totally reasonable, they're normal questions, questions that deserve an answer, that are necessary, or they're just out of curiosity. Sometimes the questions feel like demands in that moment. I'm already overstimulated. As soon as I walk in, the kids immediately want to wrestle, they want to play. I have to be in dad mode. And I'm just having a struggle to get out of that mode for a second. And the questions feel like demands. They feel like a pop quiz. And if the answer is, I don't know, I forgot to call this guy, that feels like an exam. I just failed it. I'm getting judgment now that I'm a failure, that I missed it. I should have called them. I meant to call, didn't happen. Now, she's not putting that on me. I'm putting that on me. Maybe it's another question about what we want to do next weekend. Now I have to— it feels like an ambush of like, I don't, I don't know the right answer. And so if anytime if it's 'did you' or 'what do you want' and I'm having to say 'I don't know,' that feels like I am not meeting this invisible threshold. Again, that's not there, it's just all on, on, on me. Now some of you might be listening and go, Jefferson, just get over it, they're just easy questions, can you just be a grown adult? Yeah, I understand that. I get it, I'm just, I'm being honest with you. And there are times that getting a lot of questions right at home when I've done big level things, and as soon as I get home and my brain tells me these are lower level things, and not in terms of, they're not, I don't mean in terms of not a priority, that's not what I mean. I mean, some things are not needing to be decided in this moment. And so I just want to push him off because I'm, I'm still overstimulated. I haven't come out of work mode. I'm trying to get into dad, husband mode, family mode, and that's tough. I don't mean this is just a, a husband. Any— my wife is a working wife, full-time attorney. She experiences a lot of the same things. If I come— if she comes home and I happen to be home first and I'm peppering her, it's the same exact thing where we just go, can we just not? Can we, can we just please? It's very overwhelming in that moment. I'm telling you this, Mac, as hopefully a little bit of insight. Maybe some of you who are married or have significant others might be nodding your head a little bit and going, yeah, I understand that. The last thing I wanna do when I get home is feel like I have to answer 100 questions when this should be the place where my nervous system gets to calm down. This is the place where I don't have to make a decision. Can I just please just let me get out of this mode first? So I don't mean to say that you should never ask questions. That's not it, Meg. Timing is very important here. So I'm giving you a little bit of insight to what might be happening or being experienced from your spouse. Now, how do you fix this? All right, how do we flip that? How do you ask the questions? Again, this is what we do in my house. Does not mean it's what you should do in your house. This is what works. We have a 3-question rule. That means after 3 questions, we're stopping. It can wait. So that means we prioritize the questions, makes us think about the rank of questions when, as soon as we walk in the door. So if it's not something that's very important, it's something that's going to be pushed off, meaning we're not going to ask more than 3 questions. And if I know in my world, if I get more than 3 questions, I am ready to— I feel like all of a sudden I'm being avalanched. So that's, that's how it happens. I'll tell you, it helps also to have a routine for me. If I go home, walk in the door, and I change clothes, I hug on my babies, and I get out of my work clothes. It doesn't even have to be work clothes. Just get into a different outfit. It helps my mind get more into, okay, I'm home. This is me. I'm not having to— my phone's down. I'm not looking at social media. I'm not thinking about some kind of post, any of that. It helps me get out of that mindset. There's another thing that helps, and it is we are very communicative about the time. So she's good at saying, hey, not now. This is what she'll say. She'll say, not now, but later, can we start thinking about what we want the plan to be for this Saturday? Or if you want your family to come over, or if you want to go X, Y, and Z. And that helps me and her to know that we're not having this conversation now. She's not trying to force this conversation on me now. I'm sure just like you, Meg, you're not trying to force that conversation now. You're just being curious. You want to ask questions. Uh, it's letting us know that this is going to be a topic, but we don't have to talk about it now. Also, on my end, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I will say, is this something we have to talk about this moment, or is this something we could talk about later? Is this something that needs to be decided right now? 9 times out of 10, the answer is no. So just having that, that communication is, is crucial for us and how we're doing, because we, we have 2 kids, they're the 7 and 5. So most of the time we can't even have adult conversation, real conversation, until the kids are in bed, which means we're exhausted. The best conversations we have is usually if we can try and find some time mid-morning to have a phone call or lunch. Or maybe we have a babysitter and we can actually have full-length conversations without somebody waking up. Somebody needs this with, with kids. So I know it's a stage and we're enjoying it all, but that's just part of it. So for you also, for you not to shut down, what's going to help you is having this conversation with your spouse Say, I'm noticing, or it seems that when you get home and I'm asking questions, you don't like that. What would you prefer that I do? What would be more helpful? Because again, the questions you're asking, they're not, they're not like they're dumb questions. They're questions that need to happen. They're questions of curiosity. They're questions of caring. They're questions of this needs to happen for this reason. They might be necessary. And if you have this communication, this conversation with them of what's going to be helpful. When can I bring this up? Because there's certain things you can't just continue to push off. You can't continue to push off. That would be my recommendation. That's at least what we do in my household. We have a 3-question rule until later, and we're very quick to say, is this something we need to talk about now? And already knowing if each one of us have had a very busy day the issues that are going to take priority. Because sometimes we can't even get into a conversation without somebody needing, you know, a cheese stick, uh, or asking for something to drink. So that's just kind of— that's part of it. But give you some insight there. It's, it's for me, any additional questions when I come in the door— and I know she and I have had this conversation— they feel like additional demands, like a pop quiz. And if I don't have the answer, I start to feel like a failure, and then I get more overstimulated, and it just gets worse. So that would be, that would be my recommendation for you, Mac. That was a great question. Question number 2: Hey Jefferson, I've heard you talk about how your content on improving listening skills is your least popular. I'm actually very interested in that topic. What are some ways to be a better listener? David, you're exactly right. Anytime I've made a video or put any kind of content out, on how to be a better listener. You know how many people like it? Hardly anybody. It's always my least viewed video because nobody wants to be a better listener. We want them to be a better listener. We want you to be a better listener, but we never want to be that person. Uh, funny how that happens. My most viewed content is always how to handle the toxic person, the mean person, what you can do to, to hold your ground with him. It's never how to be a better listener or be more empathetic or be more understanding. It's just, that's the way the world works. David, how to be a better listener. This is my overview for this. There's something what they call active listening, which I think is kind of a weird name for it, but they term active listening when somebody goes, mm-hmm, yeah, oh, oh, right, right, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and they just, they continually start to almost talk in nonverbal whenever they're listening to you. That I find, me personally, I find annoying. It can go too far. It can go, it can definitely go too far where you feel like this isn't really sincere. And now I've been on plenty of podcasts and the other person's like, right, oh, that's, that's so true. That I find to be completely genuine. That's completely genuine. It's when you can go too far with it. So there's that point of active listening, which is really just a way of engaging you, continuing to give you something to do while you're listening, while you're absorbing the information. So that, that's something I don't find unhelpful, but I want you to know that is out there. Here's what I would recommend to be a better listener. One is mirroring. It's very easy. You take the last little bit of somebody's sentence and then you ask it back to them. So let's say I'm telling you this phrase: Yesterday, you know, I really just didn't feel like somebody was listening to me. It was just a really hard day. You would reply, hard day, or you had a hard day, or sounds like you had a hard day. You go, yeah, no, I did. I had a really, really hard day. And then we'll keep talking. You grab the last little 2 to 3 words of somebody's sentence, you just repeat it back to them. Now, you don't want to continue to do that because then it'll be almost robotic, like, what's wrong with you? You're not engaging in conversation with me. But it's very helpful in getting you to listen. Second thing I like to do with listening is getting very disciplined on the practice of refusing to allow myself to think of a response while they're talking. That's the hardest thing to do, but once you master it, it is actually very peaceful. Let me explain. If you're saying something to me, David, and the whole time I'm just thinking of my response, I cannot do two things at once. I will shut you out. I'll just shut you out. You know how that feels when you hear somebody talking and you kind of— it's like listening to them in the water or having head muffs on, earmuffs on, where you can hear it and they're just like this and they're talking, but you're more concerned with what you're about to say and you miss out on what they're saying. Except my wife says she can do both. She says she can multitask, and that's true. I don't have that ability. So it's a practice of totally emptying your mind and just going, nope, nope. You have to almost deny yourself thinking of a response until they are done talking. Once they are done, using your breath, taking your time, to think and then give your response. Sounds easy, whole lot harder in practice. I know it sounds easy using your breath. Even if you say, now I'm listening, or I'm thinking, I'm thinking, and then you give your response, you will be a better listener for that. Number 3, what I also like to do sometimes depending on the situation is I will almost challenge myself as if I am going to have to take an exam over everything that was just said in this conversation. Now, I, I don't do that in a negative way. I don't do that in some kind of punishing way. It just makes me tune in on making sure I'm really committed to knowing and remembering what is being said. Over the weekend when I was in Denver, I did a, a speaking deal in Denver. It was a wonderful time. We were randomly talking about— a group of us were talking about how to better remember people's names. And one of the tips that I gave was, I will often— not only do you try and use their name often in conversation once I meet them, it is I pretend as if at the end of it I'm going to take a test, an exam of remembering everybody's name. And that just— it all it does is make me very more aware of paying attention to people's names instead of trying to be passive about it. It's that same concept. Instead of just passively listening, I'm trying to be the student. I'm trying to hang on every single word. That means I'm asking questions. I'm not trying to push statements. I'm asking questions about how did that feel? Well, when you said this, what do you— what did you mean by this? And I'm using the exact words that they use because it helps train you on being a better listener. I can't tell you How many times I've seen a new attorney, a very brand new, just got licensed attorney, asking questions of a witness and all they're doing is reading their next question. They're not even listening to the gold that that witness is giving them. The attorneys you're scared of are the ones that have their questions and just put them off to the side and they're just, they're in right here talking to your witness. That's when you know they're not even paying close attention to their questions. They know their questions, they know where they want to go. They're all in on listening. That makes you a lot more skilled attorney and just a more skilled communicator. So that would be my advice there, David from Florida. Thank you very much for that question. That was awesome. So my book has been out for a little over a week now, and it's been fantastic, amazing. The book tour is going wonderful. And as any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online because you want to know, are people going to like the book? That's the whole— you get very nervous. Or are you going to deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen, you You are not a target. I was once told by my husband, you are an easy target and everyone knows it. Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips. That's what I thought it would be.
No.
It is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend, and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle Edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people. I, I was just taken aback. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says verified purchaser. This is my point with this, is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way, you are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, this is where it stops. Rule number 1 in my book— there are 3 rules. It's rule number 1, say it with control. Number 2, say it with confidence. Number 3, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number 1 is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I can give you, none of it matters if you do not say it with control, if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're going to talk about in this episode what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Anytime that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally through its biology reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments, even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you. When somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, hey brain, I, I didn't like that. And the brain goes, give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that. And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face, you want to say something back, you get heated, your neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number 1 in my book is you use your breath as the first word that you say. And the reason why is because it adds a distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you. And it also— the other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well, gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day there are little things that tell your body, I am threatened. Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic, somebody merges, somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, I am threatened. That's where road rage comes from. I feel threatened in this environment. When you're talking with your kids, when somebody says something to you that they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea, you don't like that. Your body's saying, hey, that feels threatening to me. I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later. Do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you. And we're going to put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude, whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just just feels like it sets you off, that just— you just explode when somebody does this to you. You got it? You find that word. Now write it down, and right next to it, I want you to write, 'Does not threaten me.' 'Does not threaten me.' So the sentence would be, 'Dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me. This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body of, hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, hey, this does not threaten me. That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body what is happening in front of me is not a threat, right? It's this idea that, um, you have— you've seen the big animals, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have like some— maybe a little dog or something, they just go, what is this? It's like a little animal coming up to a big animal. They're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, hey, what you're doing is— this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it. Cool. I'm going to tell you a quick story right now that, um, I haven't— I don't think I've ever shared. This was, I don't know, maybe 3 weeks ago or so. And where was I? I think it was in San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's blurring, blending together at this moment, and it's early, give me a break, is I got through security at TSA and went and I was looking for my gate, looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs. And then all of a sudden I was outside of it, outside of the security, the gate, the terminal. It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal. And I had just walked myself all the way through. I had already gone through security. I had already gone through all the, the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID. I had— I started walking out and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, or has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look and I go— I say this out loud— I go, oh my gosh, I gotta do this all over again. Because I have to know I'm going further down where a separate terminal is. And I say, oh my gosh, I got to do this all over again. And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice, goes, that's why you should read the sign, sir. And I'm trying to find who that is. And I turn and look. And as I'm looking, she goes, you have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs. I don't know if you're feeling this just hearing it to me, just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself. And I remember Being just taken aback. Who, who are you? And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible. And I, hey, I'm an attorney for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There's some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was middle-aged lady. Just looked so smug when soon as she said that. And this is what my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was kind of, it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it— I looked at her for like 5 seconds trying to figure out, is this— did she say that? And I just give it time. And now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, how do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Does it give you joy? That's what I said, verbatim. And immediately she got red, like, um, and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I don't have to prompt anything. She goes, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sir. You're right, that wasn't kind. You're right, sir. I'm sorry. Yes, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down. And now she was in helping mode. Now she's in helping mode. You can go right here, and this is where it's going to be. I would say, oh, well, thank you very much, I appreciate that. All right, you have a wonderful day. You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life. How are you going to react? What are you going to say to that person? Are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that going to ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me, is that what 'Excuse me, are you talking to me?' You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you, it's not going to work. It ain't gonna work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say, and we have different podcast episodes on that, and I'm going to continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know and you hear— and really the message is very simple for today— you are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean— did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These ways of responding to rude behavior that is actually not a response, it's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, "You spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours." No, it is a reflection of their own behavior and character. And 9 times out of 10, The other person sees that because they— because you're giving them time to— are seeing. It's like, uh, the, the blood, the, the red— it's not blood— the red comes out of their system, you know, or somebody's seeing red. You have to give them time for that to go away, come back to normal. Come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not— people are far better than we give them a chance to be.
Why?
Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have a better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that. Cool. All right. You are not a target. Hope you have a wonderful day. If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge, and the other side's arguing. Again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this, and they just— I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better, but you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that— how to win every argument— it's, it's lying to you. Because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship, you're going to lose their respect, they're going to close themselves off from you, you're going to be less approachable, you're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument.
What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific, is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words, where perhaps you are the secondary person, is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of— wrestle's the wrong word— but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a conversation? You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not, they're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.
Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to— and they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation, typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet, and when that person speaks, Everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.
You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator, of a leader, correct?
Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it, oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove, they have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the, the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever's happening. Instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And, and they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization, and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.
So good, Jefferson. When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm it's getting away from me. Let's say that that could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend, you name it. I feel like in my case, most of the time it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in Rule 1, number 6 is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace in the way that you communicate, even on the show today and even in your content. You do. You're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that, like tonality and pacing. Yeah, let's talk about that in a conversation because with my— when emotions run high, oftentimes for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my, my intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean?
Yeah, I love that you picked up on that. The anytime you are getting that fight or flight, and I know all of your listeners highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, it is, that's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things. And that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're, you're either nervous Same thing when you're really mad, you might stammer and you might go like, no, no, no, that's not— and you're having trouble getting words out. It's because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there, your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross-examination, and I'm just offering them up to the wolves, is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever they ask you a question and you give a rapid-fire answer back, or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going, bad things happen. You say things you don't mean. You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's Oh man, that's not what I mean. And you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference. If you were to ask me, if you said, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, good, it was real good. I mean, it was really good, thanks. Versus, hey Jefferson, how's your day? And I said, it was good, it was a good day. Like, you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard. Same thing with— that's why rule number 1 is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're at work and all of a sudden you go, what's wrong? What happened? What's going on? And you, all you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath, and then you're saying, all right, what happened? Give it to me. Like people are looking, like we said, for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And what's that going to do is keep your analytical side engaged and to where you do not allow yourself emotionally to get emotionally flooded. And the second benefit is neither does the other person, because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.
You have a very calming demeanor, by the way. I mean, we just, we just met, you know, 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago, and I, I came on to the recording. I was like super frazzled, was a couple minutes late, and just the first few words out of your mouth, I was like, oh, he's a calm presence. He has like a very soothing voice and felt my, you know, felt my frustration and anxiety decrease a little bit just with that. Is that intentional? Like, have you intentionally learned how to present yourself and how to show up in a certain way, um, in order to just deflate a situation?
The answer is that comes naturally from what I have— what's been modeled for me. I, I have— I will absolutely say that I have been blessed in a way to see models of diplomacy in my family and how they handle and address conflict. I'd grow up, I'd get so mad. I mean, I'm a teenager, I'm getting mad at my mom, she's trying to control me, she's trying to do this. And I'd come to Dad and Dad go, so, you know, but Dad, I got this, this, you don't understand. He'd go, so, you know, I mean, and it was like, oh man, what? Yeah, he's, he's, he's right. And so his whole thing was, you know, hey, don't make that your Alamo. In other words, don't— is that the hill you're going to die on, really? And he was just so good at, like, deconstructing a lot of the ways I would, I would feel that. And it became very natural to me in my demeanor to slow down. And as an attorney especially, I very much hone that behavior because my sole job is to send my clients into just intense conflict. So I have to train them and teach them and calm them down in, in very significant ways. And a part of that is what I've learned now, now that I've like working backwards of why, why is that, um, that my lower voice, or using a calming voice, a slower register, which comes very natural to me, actually makes other people's their, their sympathetic nervous system. Like, it matches their energy and the frequency to calm them down. So they oftentimes— it would be different if I came on and I just started yelling or I was really intense. You're gonna also feel that intensity. So we tend to mirror each other. And so when I come in, I'm a lot more calming and talking about our day and how's your morning going. Then your body's like, oh, I like— okay, I can match this frequency.
And then it kind of just starts to ease, to ease in, to ease down, that's for sure.
Yeah.
Let's talk about the, the person who is angry, wants justice, believes they're right, wants their way. You probably deal with some of these people every day. Every, every day. What is your— what have you seen work? How do you get people to shift their mindset and shift their behaviors so that the other person can actually hear what they're trying to say.
So let's put it in a context. Let's say, let's, let's put it, I assume for your readers, it's marriage, it's relationship. Let's put it, let's put it contextually. They come into the kitchen. What's, what's happening?
Yeah.
Okay.
They come into the kitchen and let's say they're— let's say it's a wife. She's been working hard all day getting the house clean, making dinner. And for the fifth night in a row, her husband is not home on time for dinner like he said he was going to be. And it's not just the fact that he's not home. It's, he doesn't respect me. He doesn't love me. This isn't right. And so he comes in and he doesn't see what the big deal is. And she's upset and feels disrespected and unloved. And what she says to him is, why are you never home? Why don't you want to be with me? You need to change. Like, we have to start spending more time together, so on and so forth.
That's hard. And let's, let's make it even harder. Let's say kids are around. Yeah, let's—
absolutely, they're sitting at the dinner table.
Yeah, let's make it more— let's make it even harder. Kids are sitting at the dinner table, they're already finishing dinner, and husband comes in late. So Mom has a choice at that moment. Do I, do I address this now, or do I address this later? Now that— I think the first part of it is personal preference. I would recommend that it is not addressed in front of the kids. That's just my, that's my personal belief. I grew up in a household that if you wanted to have a significant, you know, conversation, even if it was an argument, it needs to be done away from child's ears because they don't, they don't understand the context. And I don't, I don't believe that kind of behavior, should it turn ugly, should be modeled in front of kids if you can't have it in a healthy way. But it sounds like under our scenario, it's not going to be had in a very healthy, healthy way. So dinner goes exactly as it should. You can either choose to address, say, you know, hi, Dad's here. Let's finish dinner. Let's have bed. Let them have a good night's sleep. Let them have a good night's rest. Then you turn to address the conversation in the room. What you don't want to do is start off with a why, pushing the why question. Yes, that's the question you want to know. But when you put it in terms of a why, very much feels like a challenge. So it pushes a threat to our body of challenging your autonomy. It challenges your competence. If I were to just say to you, Kimberly, let's say you did something, I said, why'd you do that? Our immediate response is, because I wanted to. You know, who are you to question me? Yeah, yeah, because that's what I wanted to do. What's, what's into you? So it works the same way. You have times where if you start with why, it is immediately going to put them defensive. Because it is a challenge. It is a trigger to people. So the first question— my style is very much a diplomatic, let's come to the root of the matter. Because if you just start complaining that they're late, they know that they're late. So you complaining that they're late does nothing in terms of resolving the real issue. Right? It's just you venting. If you need to vent, tell them that you're going to vent. If you need to, put a frame around it. I just need to vent to you for a second. I want to talk about this later, you know, I want to talk about it afterwards, but I, I need you to be a place to just vent. They probably aren't going to want to hear that. Bigger issue is going to need to be, um, you know, where is this coming from in terms of the repeated behavior. A very much more powerful way, I think, way to address this is, do I need to give up on the idea of you coming home on time? Um, because if you ask it that way, they will answer in the negative of like, no, no, you don't need to, I, I can do this, I can do this. At the same time, you need to be very mindful of what's happening in their day as to why they're late. And that, that means you're asking questions more along the lines of, um, what happened today? How was your day? Like finding out, because you really don't know, right? Most of the time, if you just— like, typical scenario, right, Kimberly, is they come home late, kids are down. Great. So you're just going to be— I guess you're just never going to be home. Is this what it is? Like you said you're going to be home the other week. You have no clue what happened in his day. Who knows? It could be something where it's maybe something at work, maybe it was traffic, maybe it was— who knows? So you always have to have a pause to understand what's, what's really happening in their world. If it is a complete sign of disrespect that they know that they're being late and they just don't want to be around, that's much more of a boundary that you, that you need to put up and be much more assertive and aggressive with it. Um, that means that sounds more along the lines of, I'm interested in a relationship that shows up. If you're not interested in that, in being with us at dinner, I need to know that now. There are times where I think you need to ask them in ways that want them to talk to you rather than want them to close up to you. So often we feel like the answer is to attack when that just makes them clam up more rather than trying to be understanding of what, what is it about, what is it about us that makes you not want to be here? Uh, and that, that starts to crack that a whole lot more.
And it also, I mean, the other part of that is being able and willing to hear what they might honestly say. Yeah, because sometimes those answers back might be, well, then, no, there is something about us that makes me not want to be here, and here it is, right? And then that can lead to a cycle of poor interaction, poor communication.
How many times you get in a— it's cyclical where you're getting in an argument, you come to the same place, but it just gets worse.
It just gets worse. And Jefferson, I can imagine that, you know, with you having a history, a family history, a professional history, just the experience in your life, the— what's the word I'm looking for? Like the importance that you have put on communication just in general for you. You probably tend to show up communicating well in your conversations and in arguments. But there are probably people that you get in arguments with or disagree with, and they don't give the same kindness back, right? Like they don't think of not using, not saying it in a challenging way and saying why, right? So how do you handle, so we can still continue to use the example of the wife who's mad at the husband. So let's say the wife is doing all these things. She's approaching it in the right way, not asking why, but looking to see what the core issue is. But he is using all the wrong communication styles and blaming her and X, Y, and Z, and she's having to like keep her calm in the middle of a very difficult conversation. How would you recommend to continue on in that conversation when the other person is difficult to talk to?
Oh yeah, well, that's, that's just about any argument. They're going to be difficult to talk to, especially when you're trying to calm things down in a way. So what has been very beneficial for me is that I frame my arguments at the outset. So let's say I'm the wife in this situation, and I know deep down he's a good dad, or that he really loves us. That's not the issue. You know, there's not a fear of like, are you going around? Do you not love me? That's, that's not the issue. It's just he's not, he's not coming home when he said he's going to come home. Um, to me, you can frame a conversation by, one, acknowledging what you know and a quality you want them to have. So if you and I can really— in a— maybe let's say you and I are in an argument, and I can start at the outset of saying, look, I know that being on time is important to you. I know that attention to detail is important to you. I know that respect is important to you. Whatever quality I want you to have at that time, I want you to show up in, I say it. I speak that over the conversation. So if I am the wife, I said, look, I know that you love us and you love our children. And so you hear me at the outset, boom, you've set the tenor of they are now not going to be feeling threatened of, I have to show you how much I love you, but I do this, but I do that, but I, I mow the yard, but I, I did this, I paid the bills, I'm working. Like, I, I know, I know that you work hard for us and our family. Boom, I've already calmed it down. That's, that's— you, you've hit a fear that they could have. Then you frame it. You put an end to the conversation— and not, not an end, but you put a backstop to it. I want to have a conversation with you, a real conversation with you. About you coming home late, and at the end of it, I want to know why you're not coming home late and ways that we can think together of making sure you're at home on time. I want to be a help to that. Boom, you've now put a backstop on it. Say, hey, we're going to have this conversation. Maybe it gets ugly, maybe it gets tense, but I've already claimed at the end of it, this is how I want this to go. Can you agree to that? And when you get their buy-in into the conversation on the end, that's always better. So a lot of times, um, you don't have to agree how to get there, you just have to be aligned on the goal. So if you can get them to buy in on, are you willing to engage in a conversation with me about ways we can get you here on time? They, they're down for that. Okay, then let's, then let's talk about it. What's, what's happening. Uh, you're gonna find way more success than that in this just throwing darts game. Yeah, because that's typically— we just like to send zingers, things that can hurt. I'm here with the kids, you're not. I have this, you're not. And all you're doing is making— you're hurting them, you're making them defensive, and you're not at all addressing the true issue.
A key takeaway I took from what you just said is entering into the conversation with a goal.
Yeah, yeah.
And how often do people not?
Every time. I mean, how many times have we been in an argument and you think to yourself, exactly, uh, how did this start? Where, where was it going? Where was I going with this?
You go around, where am I wanting to end? Or even like, what's the point?
That too.
You go, how—
one, you say, how did we even How did we start? And then how do we get out of this argument? Like, we've just— we've lost our way. How did this even begin? You started talking about ironing clothes, and next thing you know, you're talking about, you know, something that happened in 2007 on a bad date that you had. Like, you just— you never know. Goals, goals, knowing what you wanted the end goal to be before you even start. Often cuts down a lot on the fluff.
So you and your wife, do you just have super effective communication, clear-cut arguments that have a goal in mind? Like, or does she ever get frustrated that she's up against someone who's like a pro at communication? Or do you ever get frustrated? Yeah, yeah, because maybe she's better at it than you. Who knows?
She's an attorney too.
Oh my.
Yeah, but we've known, we've known each other since we were teenagers, so, um, knew each other long before we were attorneys.
Yeah.
And all it means in terms of an attorney is that she just knows if I ever— if, well, either one of us ever go into cross-examination mode.
Explain what that means for the listeners.
Uh, that means I'm— I am asking questions to prove a point. Like I'm using my questions to prove my point for me. And so if I wanted— let's think of a scenario— if I wanted to prove that, you know, you left the garage door open— I don't know, I'm just making something up— and she's saying, no, I didn't. My cross-examination mode is, um, you know, you had, you had carpool that day, yeah. You, you left after I did. Yeah, I didn't get home before you, did I? No, you're the one who left the garage door open. Like, you're like— I'm, I'm poking, I'm using my cross-examination, my questioning to prove my, my point.
So, but isn't that effective in the courtroom?
Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying, is it's not beneficial for interpersonal relationship. It's, it's— yeah, yeah, I just mean that to say that we're both very aware of when we go into that mode. And as soon as we do, we're very quick to say, do not cross-examine me. Oh yeah, sorry. Like, it's, it's a, it's just a habit. You can't, you can't really help it. But we're very aware of, of when that's happening. Um, but yeah, do, do I get frustrated? Does she get frustrated? Absolutely. Yeah.
I would love for all those people at home who are either in partnerships or friendships where arguing happens. Yeah. Jefferson Fisher, you and your wife being attorneys, being phenomenal communicators, right? Having sometimes your job depending on it. And then you, of course, becoming now one of the most well-known communicators in the world. Tens of millions of people going to you for this. How do you and your wife argue? Yeah. Like, let us in on all the secrets that we all need to be doing differently.
Are you ready for the tea?
Yes.
Okay, my wife— no, I'm kidding. Um, she's a fantastic communicator. Law really teaches you to be concise. And what I like to compare it is I'm a lot slower, she operates a lot faster, but often we have to communicate the same level. When you have 2 kids and you're raising a family and everything, it's, it's a lot. Our arguments are very short. And the reason because of that is we operate on this very quick to apologize, very quick to resolve. If you want your argument to be shorter with your spouse, with your partner, with your friend, be quick to apologize. So often it is the continual circular arguments that just tend to roll on forever because you can't really sleep when you're having that bad argument with your spouse or a significant other, it keeps you up at night. It begins to live and seep, and now you're having to put on an act for your kids when really you're irritated at each other and you want to lash out. Being quick to apologize and quick to resolve, that makes our arguments very short because we're fast to say, "That's not what I meant," or, you know, "I can see how that's how you would take it. I didn't mean it that way. I didn't intend it that way." Whenever you can push out your intentions rather than pushing how they should react, it's a big difference. What I mean by that is, here I am taking the accountability of, "I could have done better communicating that," versus, "Why would you behave that way? Why would you even behave that way when I said this? Who reacts like that?" So, when you take the responsibility for being understood, radical things can change.
Even if you think they're completely at fault, they don't get it, they should do different, they should do better, but that's gonna go for an argument forever, 'cause I've tried that. So, you're saying that you're not saying they're right by apologizing or by, you know, you're saying, "Oh wait, maybe I could have communicated that differently." You're doing your part to try to make the argument shorter.
[Speaker] There are times when, and again, I'm not pointing to where people are in toxic relationships, people with narcissistic tendencies, Yes, that can be circular and terrible. I'm not saying you should just apologize to apologize.
Yeah.
What I'm communicating is whenever there is a friction in the conversation, yeah, we make sure that it doesn't get heated. In other words, it doesn't combust and turn into flame. It is trying to draw it out by unraveling the knot and going, okay, this is how I understood it. What did you hear? Okay, that's what— all right, that's not what I intended at all. I'm sorry, that what I meant to say was X, Y, and Z. So the quicker you can get to that, the better.
That's so good. Okay, so this is what I intended. What did you hear?
Yes.
And then, "Oh, okay, well, that's not what I intended. Here's this." Right. You know, I wanna just share something that I think is so profound, because every time I was growing up, when I knew my parents were arguing or this or that, you know, they didn't argue much. My parents actually just didn't talk about hard things. When they did argue, and I knew that they were, I would go in and I would, "Say, is everything okay?" And I'm like, "Absolutely." And they cover it up and we think we wanna protect our kids and hide it. But if the argument's getting drug out and we're actually hiding it, I read something where children are learning to not trust their own intuition. 'Cause they're saying, "Is everything okay?" We're like, "Oh, it's fine, it's fine." They know it's not.
[Speaker] Yeah, they can sense it.
[Speaker] They sense it. And we're saying, "Don't trust your senses," or "Your senses are off," or something like that. And so the idea of, the stronger you become at communicating and learning how to respond in an argument with someone you love in a way that diffuses it, just has so many ripple effects beyond just that particular thing. So, I love that.
I wanna make sure I tell you, right along with that, this happened sometime last year with my son, who's now 7. I got home, long day, suit and tie, and I'm starting to make their lunches for tomorrow. Son asked me, "How your day was, Dad?" And I said, "It was fine, buddy. It was good. It was a good day. How was your day?" And I'm continuing to make the sandwich. And he doesn't bring it up again. We go on about dinner and bedtime, bath, everything. I'm sitting on his bed for prayers and song. And first thing he asked was, why'd you tell me it was a good day when it wasn't? I kid you not, that is exactly what he said. I said, what did you mean? He said, you didn't say it like it was good. You said it like you were sad. And I mean, it was such a just slap in the face of, I'm never gonna say it was just good again. I need to, he needs to hear that from me. Even when the day's been bad. He needs to hear when it's been tough. I mean, that's— and it was just this moment of, how dare I try to just gloss over the fact that he needs to know that I have hard days too. And that hit me just like a ton of bricks. So yeah, no hiding from him. Yeah.
Wow. You know, you say, I think this is something really, really powerful because a lot of people don't they don't wanna get in an argument. A lot of people don't even wanna have a conversation, especially if there's like anything hard or difficult or challenging or, you know, any of it. And you say that when you align your conversations or your arguments with your personal values, that you're sort of aligned then ahead of time with your goals before you go into it. Can you explain to us what that means and how we all do it right now today in our lives?
So values are intrinsic to everybody. What I value is gonna be different than what you value. They might be similar, but we all take it different ways based on how we've been raised. What values do is guide you like a north star when there's— you don't have any kind of compass. What I do, what I encourage, is that people have conversational values because when you do, decisions become easier. Take it, for example, with a company. Your major Fortune 500 companies, like your company, there are ones that have values. And when you have a value, decisions become easier because you don't have to question it. You follow the value. If my value is I only work with clients who align with me, comes easy. I don't have to make that decision. I know that that's who I'm going to work with. Same thing in your conversation. So one of my values that I hold dearly is, where there is kindness, I will use it. Where there is room for kindness, I will use it. Doesn't matter what they did. Doesn't matter what they caused. The question is, is there room for kindness? And that comes from my mama. I'd complain about something that someone happened at school, expecting her to buy into the tea. Let's get some, how dare they kind of thing. And what my mom would say is, "Or were you kind?" I can hear it in my head. She'd say, "Well, were you kind?" And I would always go, "I mean, probably not, Mom." And she'd go, "Well, I think you should be kind." I mean, that was just her thing. And that became such a value of me of when I'm talking on the phone to an opposing attorney and he says something snide, I know that he's trying to jab me. Is there room for kindness? I'll use it. And I'll say something like, well, you know what? I know you really care for your clients. I know you really care for your clients, Matt, and that really shows. Any way that I can just share a little bit of kindness, I don't have to worry about the next zinger. I don't have to worry about what can I say to impress them. Is there room for kindness? And that's what I'll do. But I have others.
And you feel like that works to your advantage.
Every time.
You can have a snide attorney on the call.
Yes, because the—
They don't mistake it for weakness.
Because how they interpret it is going to be how they interpret it. Interpreted. I'm the one that has to be left with it. I'm the one that has to walk away and go home to my family. And if I'm carrying that conversation that I had with that opposing attorney home, why? They don't deserve that. That's not what that conversation was for. That's not why they said it. And so having these values, another that I love to use is, if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. If things burn down don't work out with that other people, well, that's okay. They'll always still know where I'm at.
They'll—
they always know where to find me. So when you have these ideas in your head of what my value is—
explain that a little bit more. If I can be a bridge, be a lighthouse, be a lighthouse.
Yeah. So let's say you and I, um, been friends and we have a big fallout. Despite what I say, and I, I'm really trying to mend this relationship, um, and it's just not happening. They've You've written me off. It's not working out. The bridge is really burned. Well, that's okay. I'm still gonna be a lighthouse. Maybe I'll see you in 5 years. Maybe I'll see you in 15 years when life has happened to both of us. But I'm not gonna change the light that I'm going to put out into the world just because of our bridge was burned.
Or the light you wish that other person.
Yes, yeah, absolutely. And so when you have these values, and every one of us has a value, And that's how you handle your conversations. Because it allows you to, I don't have to worry about decisions. The values make the decisions for me.
That's so good. I love that too, because I've had to do this. I wish I've never had to do this. I had to do this even recently where a friend just, ugh, just like completely wasn't the friend I thought they were. And I think parts of our humanness wanna, you know, tell them all the reasons they're wrong or this or that or all the things. And it's like, I think when you can just be a lighthouse and go, okay, so it's a different friendship than I thought. And I'm just gonna pray for them and love on them. And I feel like what happens then is you meet the vibration also of attracting great friends.
Yes.
You know, when you— when you—
and that's your gift.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's where it comes back. Whenever you send that zinger, that clapback, that sense of, "Oh man, I just put together the perfect paragraph that's gonna punch them in the mouth." Yeah. It always has a bad aftertaste.
Yeah.
Always.
Yeah.
It may not be right within that moment, but it'll probably be the next morning, and it'll definitely be a week from now. And I mean, the longer it goes, the harder it is to come back together.
I even think about that when I see comments online. Someone just like, you know, it can feel like a temporary relief or something when you just, you know, get that hateful comment out or attack someone or do that. But then you're meeting the vibration of that in your life. So it just comes all around you in different areas. So that's so beautiful. Be the lighthouse. Even if you're not the bridge. Even if you're not the bridge. What role does self-worth play play and communication with others and with ourself?
Self-worth matters of who you're listening to. It's the question of who are you listening to? When it's, say, I have the confidence or I can be assertive or I shouldn't have said that, it is the line of who are you listening to in your life that's driving your own value. So much of what we put in self-value is a lie often. It's doubt. We sow a lot of doubt into ourselves, and that can grow over time to where when you get that one comment from a troll, all of a sudden you feel like they're telling you the truth, when really all they're doing is speaking to your doubts. And self-worth is something that you can grow into. And I don't want to say lean into, it's something you can step into. Because when you can learn how to communicate effectively, to stand up for yourself just a little bit, you have that self-worth. When you can tell somebody no and it works, you feel excited about it, you feel worthy, and you feel like, hey, I have that within myself. Of good, good job. Okay, now you feel a little bit better, and then you continue to grow in that step by step by step. But self-worth is very much tied to your communication, because again, how you communicate is who you are and how you feel about yourself and how you communicate with yourself, right? Oh yeah, yes, no doubt. And because it's, uh, remember, who are you listening to? Am I listening to my own doubts? Be— people who are negative say negative things, and people who are positive say positive things. It's as simple as that. When you start to doubt yourself, it's because you're listening to your doubts. You're not listening to the positivity. When you feel anxious you're listening to the anxiety-inducing thoughts of what-ifs, of what-ifs, rather than the comfort in knowing, I knows, I knows, I knows.
These are such powerful tools that we can apply to our life right now.
Right.
And what I love is they're free.
They're free.
And they're not always easy, but we can get in the habit of them and we can apply them right now. So thank you for these tools.
How can someone communicate with someone else to get exactly what they want without being manipulative?
Hmm. Getting exactly what they want. Now, one thing that you said in the first episode that I loved, which I love that this is my second time here. So much has happened since then.
That's crazy, man.
What's the chance? Oh, that's so good. It is so good.
It's so good.
And, um, I—
Paul Evans taught me that like 15 years ago.
It's such a good one, um, and it's one I've definitely added to my list of just like, man, that's so— it's, it's just asking if there could ever be the possibility. Yes. Of this to happen. I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm not trying to do anything. And the thing is, people will find a way to do it. Another one that I love, again, this is Chris Voss. I just— once you find like collection of people, they're like, I love what they're doing, is I need, I need, I need a miracle.
I need a miracle right now. I need a miracle. That's good.
And, uh, I did that. Um, I used this, I was at Target and we were shop, uh, shopping and, uh, I, I wanted ice cream so bad. So we got little bitty pints of ice cream, but there's no spoon. They didn't sell spoons. And so, but we passed the Starbucks at Target and she was like, no, no, no, you need to buy some. Uh, it's my wife saying you need to buy something before you need to like, you can't just steal that spoon. You can't.
Yeah.
The spoons are back there. And so I went up and I was like, I need a miracle. She goes, well, I don't know what I can do for you. I said that, but I'll try. I said, I got ice cream, no spoon. And she said, I got it right here. Answered in prayer and gave me two spoons. And that was just playful.
But yeah, that's cool, man.
I, I need a miracle.
That's great.
People love to, um, give more than you expect.
They want to be the hero. Yeah, that's when I, you know, when I said that, I was I feel like these 3 words are the most powerful words to get anything you want besides I love you. And that's what's the chance? Like we talked about, what's the chance? And the more you can come from a mindset of what's the chance you can help me out with this? What's the chance I can get an upgrade in this hotel? What's the chance you can get me to first class? What's the chance I can get a discount on this right now? What's the chance you can give me half off? You may not get exactly what you want, but you're creating a playful, open connection with someone. Like you said, what's the chance? Or I need a miracle. Can you help give me a spoon right now so I can eat this ice cream with my kid? You're creating an open heart and a playful way of being to allow for goodness to come to your life. It's not being manipulative, but it's creating an opening for miracles to occur, even those little mini miracles that just make life enjoyable.
Yeah, just the little bitty things.
And if you can say, what's the chance, or I need a miracle, can you help me out? Yeah, man, you're setting yourself up for success every time.
And you're allowing the other person to rise up to, you know, be a hero, well, to fulfill that. I mean, they, they'll make them feel, uh, it's just, it's a mutual sense of giving. It's the givers like you talked about. And the reason why what's the chance works too, is that it is easy to say without feeling like you're being oppressive. Easy to say because it's like, you know, it's not demanding something and it's not super direct. It's just a little bit left of center that allows it to feel okay.
You know what Chris Voss told me after this? I said, say, what's the chance? And I go, what else should I say? And Chris Voss said a really interesting one that's like, it could be a little manipulative. Like it could be like, ah, you're like teetering with manipulation. But it is extremely effective as a next step is saying, what's the chance you can get me 10% off this right now? If you're at a store, Target, Starbucks, whatever. Can you give me 10% off? What's the chance? If they say no, this is what Chris Voss told me. He said, you can reply with a follow-up. So you're telling me you're powerless? So it's a little, I don't know if it's manipulative or what, but it's like, So you're telling me you're powerless right now and helping me? Yeah. And it's kind of like, because he said no. Yeah. No one wants to say I am powerless.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, when you sound, when you have the voice of Chris Voss in a—
You're telling me you're powerless?
Yeah. I'd probably go bury my head in the sand if you told me that.
But it's almost like another level of, okay, we created playfulness. Now this is like, you're putting pressure on the playfulness.
Right.
From what's the chance or I need a miracle. To, to really need something, you're putting that pressure on.
Yeah.
You're saying, so you tell me you're powerless right now. Then the person behind the counter is like, am I powerless or am I powerful?
Yeah, sir, this is Smoothie King.
Like, but it's like, it's interesting though, because if you try it, I don't know if you'd want to try this, but if you try it, so you tell me you're powerless right now. It's interesting the responses you'll hear from people because people do not want to be powerless. They want to feel powerful and empowered.
Yeah, I could see that. And if you, if you said it from like a playful place, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But shout out Chris Voss.
Shout out Chris Voss, man. It was a good one. This is, uh, this is another question I want to ask you. I feel like I, I've probably been in more arguments than I wish in my life where I needed to apologize afterwards, where it's like an hour or a day later I was like, ah man, I was a jerk, or I reacted, or I overreacted, right? I let my childhood wounds get the best of me and I responded from a fight or flight. So what's the best way to apologize to someone after you said something that you really didn't mean in the heat of the moment?
Hmm. The formula that I teach is one, the apology. This is the, I'm sorry. This is the, I apologize. Two is acknowledging How they felt by it or how they would feel by it. That's as simple as, I can understand why that's upsetting. I can see how that hurt you. I can see that that was thoughtless of me. So it's relating it. It's acknowledging the feeling. What you're saying in that moment is how you feel is reasonable. How you reacted, justified. That is extremely comforting to the other person. And lastly, in 3 is the next step. The, I, next time I'm going to get your permission before I do X, Y, and Z, or I'm not going to bring this up again. I'm not going to bring that topic, that sensitive trigger, whatever it is up again, or now I know. It's showing that there's a future remedy that's been in place, that this isn't going to be continuing because we've all been in those situations where somebody has apologized, but you know, they're going to do it again. They've apologized, best intentions, it's still gonna fall into the same trap. And so it's just the apology, plain, genuine, authentic, understanding their emotion and finding acknowledgement in that. And then the future step, those help you in many ways send the right apology. What you can't do is what we talk about in assertive statements in the book is adding the word but. If you say, I'm sorry, but you did this to me, or I'm sorry, but you said, you just, anything that came before the word but, you just eliminate it. You deleted it.
You know what I like to do instead? It might be a little workaround.
Do you feel powerless? Does that make you feel again?
No, no.
Because anytime you add but, like you said, it kind of eliminates the apology or your acknowledgement of their feelings. And so I started to say my workaround.
I can't wait for this.
Was, I'm sorry. And I also want to talk about just putting a hand. Yeah.
It actually is better.
It's better.
Yeah.
I'm sorry. I acknowledge it. And I also want to bring this up as well. Yeah. You know, it's like, how can you? It's kind of a workaround. Yeah. I know.
I think that's great.
It's not eliminating something, it's acknowledging and including something else.
Well, what you might want to do is instead of including in the same sentence, you need to put a period, enter, enter, enter, tab, then begin that.
Wait like 30 seconds.
Yeah, then begin that next line.
Exactly, not in the middle of it.
Yeah, but the worst is the people who had the bad apologies. Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of stuff that, um, can just water you down.
And what should we do or say when someone gives us an insincere or inauthentic apology?
I think you should call it out every single time. Don't let a single bad apology slide under your door. When somebody says, well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry that you feel that way. It's don't apologize for my feelings. Apologize for what you said. Apologize for what you did. It's that don't feel sorry for how I feel. I got those. Those are my feelings, not yours. I need you to apologize for what you said. And so it's taking ownership of that. When they say, well, I'm sorry if I upset you, it's the response of, it's not if, it's that. I mean, you're having to correct them because it's, that's what it takes is a continued correction of people that understand that they don't want to apologize, so they're going to deflect. People who, a toxic apology that's kind of like, well, I'm sorry, I'm such a I'm bad friend. Sorry, I'm such a horrible mother.
It's, it's, it doesn't feel good.
No, because they know what they're wanting from you in that moment is, oh, you're not that. No, you're not that terrible. It's not what I said. Oh yes, you did. You always do. And they're trying to take you down that.
I'm trying to blame you.
They're trying to pull you down and all of a sudden now you, you, you apologize for that. Geez. Yeah. And instead it's just the, the key is the understanding of what they're doing, adding distance and saying, I'll accept an apology. Like, just clean, simple, I'll accept an apology. And understanding that what they said isn't— is not one. So it's understanding that definition.
Here's the challenge, I guess. I don't know if this is like a pushback to you or anything, but it's more of like, I feel there are some people in the world who have very thin skin.
Yeah.
And everything triggers them, even when they're not trying to trigger them. And they almost become victims, saying, you hurt me, you hurt me every single day or week, or something that was said or not said. And everything is an attack where it can become exhausting for a friend, a family member, or a loved one to feel like, gosh, this person has such thin skin. I'm always needing to apologize.
Yeah.
And most people would never take this personally. And I'm not intending to hurt someone. Right. So what if you're dealing with someone who is a victim and always trying to get you to apologize for something when you didn't really do anything?
Yeah, there's—
I'm not talking about the intentional, these were really hurtful, you said something nasty to me, but just the weak, vulnerable, thin-skinned person who just likes the attention of making someone else need to apologize to them.
Yeah, there are, there are definitely those that use apologies to manipulate. They use, they use sometimes crying to manipulate. They know— I mean, it's that my 7-year-old daughter, she knew when she was 2, she started crying like Get your attention. Yeah, and she probably got what she wants, like, you know. So, um, it's, it is an easy trap to fall into. And somebody has thin skin, you go, God, look, I didn't, it really didn't do anything. Here are my thoughts. One, you can't be the judge of if what you did was truly nothing. So it's a hard, it's a hard, uh, row to hoe is what my grandfather would say. You gotta be careful with it. Um, 2, if it becomes a continued habit where this person is always the victim, always everybody's against her, everybody's against him, the world is never— those are the type of people you just need to get your hands to farm slowly away from your inner circle. Add distance, um, between them because there are people that at that point it is a control tactic. That is going to start to wear you down. So you got to— oh, it's draining. People that are just emotional sand traps, that they just— they— it's always the 'you nevers,' 'you always.' And you go, 'We've already been through this. I apologize for that when it happened 3 years ago.' Um, so it's, it's a, it's a careful line to walk. But my advice is you need to start to distance yourself from those people. Now, if you really did something, of course own up to that. And some people are just more sensitive to others in that way, but it's, um, it's, it's case by case.
Don't get it. What is it, the emotional sand trap? Is that what you call it? Yeah, that's a tricky one. And you can get caught up with either childhood friends or intimate relationship you're in for a long time, being caught in this emotional sand trap.
It's addictive.
And it's just like, yeah, okay, we make up and we're better for a couple weeks, but then if I'm not getting the attention, what, I'm going to make you wrong for something and apologize and come give me that attention again? And it's just this cycle.
And I had friends that, um, you know, were with somebody who was like that. And they found that they kind of secretly got some fulfillment out of always being the fixer, always being the crutch. And it most likely, I'm not a therapist, but probably started from their childhood of how they did that with their parents or their, you know, somebody in their life that they were always having to be there as the crutch and the scapegoat for Everything, but it is a position of, and truly to bring it full circle, powerlessness, you know, to feel like every time they're taking it away from me and I can't get any traction. I mean, my biggest pet peeve when I'm dealing with, I'm kind of breaking up arguments as an attorney and having to deal with conflict, are people who are circular. They can't let it go. They want to bring up that same issue over and over, even in that same conversation or the next time you see them. And, um, you can't, you can't be stuck in that. You're just, you're just on their merry-go-round is what happens. So you have to have the decision. Um, one time I even advised a client that two sisters, uh, who are against each other— it was about as fun as it sounds, uh, they were very against each other— and I had her lead with, I'm getting off the merry-go-round. I said, that's what I want you to start with. When it comes to your time. I mean, that was the— it was more of a, a personal thing of like, I need you to let this person know I'm stepping off. You can step off with me, but we're gonna put this issue aside. Yeah.
Or you can keep spinning around by yourself.
Exactly.
I'm removing myself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's— now you got it. You, um, have just been such a truly a, a legend in how the way you've turned, in my view, arguments and negotiations on their head. Of just, that's not how we think about them, but it's the way you— the techniques you teach are really, I, I just find groundbreaking. To the person right now who is thinking, I don't want anybody to disagree with me, I want everybody to agree with me, I want every conversation I have, an argument that I'm in, I, I want to win it and everybody needs to go along with my plan. What would you say to that person right now who feels like they always have something to prove in the conversation? Yeah, you're driving people away from you. Yeah. You're just, you're consistently, you're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and farther apart. You know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose. I, I think of it as a Las Vegas slot machine effect. Like, people get addicted to the slots. What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine? I've read that the arithmetic, the algorithm, is if they let you win 1 in every 84 pulls, you're going to keep dumping money into the slot machine. Because the win is so celebratory. Like, if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force them into submission, it's like the slot machine going off. The bells and the whistles are ringing, the lights are flashing. You're getting this huge hit of dopamine, anticipation. It feels so good, and you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times. And they're slowly draining your bank account. So if you got something to prove, you're just slowly driving people away from you. And suddenly you can't remember the last time you had a breakthrough, or nobody in your industry talks to you, or people, you know, pay the annoyance tax, make you just so you go away. And you got all these small wins, but they don't accumulate. They don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow They get along with people, they're not as argumentative, but they got a bigger house than I do. They got, you know, they get a better car, they're making more money. How did that happen? I think you're exactly right. This idea of when you're trying to come in and prove everything and push people away, like you said, you're only draining your own bank account, bank account of life. And I think that's wise wisdom. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there.
