This Is Why You Keep Botching Hard Conversations | Jefferson Fisher

When it's time for that difficult conversation, number 1, don't begin with, how are you? How are things? Difficult conversations are not the time for small talk. The only thing that should come out of your mouth is thank you for making the time to talk with me. Number 2, follow that up with, I need your help. I need your help knowing how to feel about this. I need your help knowing what to do about this. When you say I need your help, it takes it from opponents to teammates. And number 3, end with how you feel about the conversation. I feel better having talked with you. I feel more settled after discussing this. And the key is you then end it with, so how about you? When you say, how about you, you are getting them to connect with you to say, how do you feel about this conversation? Do you feel better about it, or do we need to continue to talk? Now, when I get questions about how to have a difficult conversation, it typically revolves around having to deliver Bad news, meaning there is something negative that you need to say to someone and you know they are not going to like it. You know, they're going to get upset. It's going to bother them. It's going to ruin the mood. It's going to ruin the atmosphere or possibly ruin the relationship. Or you see it with how to address a sensitive topic. Maybe it's something that's been laid heavy on your heart and you don't know how to start. Or something that's been bothering you and you know it's for the best that you talk to this other person about it and you just don't know where to begin. You remove the difficult from difficult conversations when you break it down into bite-sized pieces that are going to connect you to that other person. Now, typically in my life where I see difficult conversations is when I have to deliver bad news to a client. You know, not every case is perfect, and not every client is a good client, and not every case is a good case. The law applies to the facts. So sometimes you have to tell them, I'm sorry, but the law doesn't allow this, or the law is against you on this case. So that just is part of normal life. And how you handle that conversation, meaning not just what you say, but more importantly, how you say it, can mean the difference between making what comes after the difficult conversation easier or just more difficult. Now, the strategy does change slightly depending on whether you need to deliver bad news or simply discuss a sensitive topic. When it comes to strictly bad news, the faster you get that bad news out, the better the conversation is going to go. For example, if you have to fire someone, The first thing out of your mouth should be, "I have bad news." Or you need to say something that's hard for them to hear, you tell them that. "This is going to be hard to hear. This is going to be a difficult conversation. This is not going to be fun for us to talk about." You give them a pause and then you deliver the bad news. In that moment, directness is also kindness.

All right?

And when it comes to sensitive topics, it's much easier to follow Steps 1, 2, and 3, where you're going to say, thank you for talking with me. I need your help. I feel better about this. So let's go through an everyday typical conversation where you need to say something that's hard for them to hear. So let's assume you need to have a difficult conversation with someone and let's make it about something they said, a comment they made at a dinner with friends last week. You've tried to let it go, but it's just not happening. And you know that you need to talk with them about it. If you're following rule number 1, what you're not going to do is begin with, "So how was this work? How was this work today?" when you know good and well that's not at all what you really care about. Because what's worse is when you make them talk about work and then you just drop the hammer and say, "Oh, that's nice. Listen, you remember what you said last week?" That's a safe way to set this up for failure. Instead, what you're going to do is set aside time and say, "Hey, when you have a moment, can we talk about something?" Next, you're going to go to rule number 2: I need your help. I need your help knowing how to feel about a comment you made at dinner last week. I tried to let it go. I have dealt with it and, and just kind of simmered on it in my mind, and I need your help with it. Then have that conversation. Tell them what they said. Tell them how it made you feel. And that's the difficult part, is that you have to express your own thoughts, and nobody can do that for you. But what makes it easier is when you lead with, I need your help. People love to be helpful. They want to be helpful rather than coming in and making them defensive and going into attack mode. When you can say, I need your help, it doesn't feel like you're sitting on two separate sides of the table, right? It makes you feel like you've instead scooted up a chair beside you and said, let's sit together. And look at this problem that's on the table in front of us and let's work through it together. And when you're able to have that conversation and say what you need to say and get it all out, or maybe you just need to hear their perspective of what they meant by their comment last week, it's going to make it better and bring you closer together because it's the difficult conversations that allow you the chance to dive deeper into your relationship and grow and build. And then after you've had that conversation, number 3, you're going to end with, I feel X. I feel better. I feel relieved. I feel more settled. I feel better knowing your perspective or where you are coming from in it. And then you ask, how about you? Or how are you feeling?

What do you think?

Get that connection just a little bit closer to wrap it up in a bow and say, hey, we just went through something that was a little difficult. We went through something that was not easy, and let's walk out of it hand in hand. Let's walk out of it together. Whatever it is, you have that meeting of the minds to say, I feel okay about this. You feel okay about this? Got it. Good. All right, I'm going to take a question from a follower. This one comes from an email. In case you didn't know, I have a weekly communication newsletter where I send out one communication tip right to your inbox, totally for free. And in response, you can ask questions like the one I'm about to answer. Right now. Put this here. Um, I have my other phone. This is the one that I typically use. This one comes from Derek in Oregon. Derek says, hey Jefferson, love your content. Thanks, Derek. I have a difficult conversation. I have to speak with— I'm not going to say his name— my supervisor, my manager, about an issue. I always feel like he puts down my ideas and does not take them seriously. I'm afraid that if I address this with him It's going to make me look bad. Derek, I got you. That makes a lot of sense, and I'm sorry that you're in that position. I wish that your supervisor made it a lot easier to have these kind of conversations. This is what I want you to do. Number 1, set aside time for this conversation. Don't just knock on his door and say, hey, do you have a few minutes? That's not the way to go. All right, Derek, I want you to set aside real time. That means ahead of time you say, Hey, later today or tomorrow or this week, can I set aside 30 minutes to talk with you about something? That's the way you do that. And then when it comes time to, you're gonna follow number 1 and say, thank you for setting aside the time to talk with me. Number 2, you're going to begin with, I need your help. I need your help with knowing how to feel about something. Or you can tweak it to say, I need your help and really your insight if you ever felt like this before, or if you came across this feeling before. Even if it has to do with them, they've been in that position before. Everybody has. Okay, everybody has, Derek. So you're going to say, I need your help, and they're going to kind of straighten up, say, all right, this person needs my help, or maybe they need my insight, and ask them, I have had issues with expressing my views in meetings or wherever it is, and I can't help but feel like my contribution is not wanted. I don't know how to feel about that. And then just go quiet. Don't keep rambling. Don't— if they ask for an example, go ahead and give it to them, but don't keep talking and over-explaining. Keep it short and put it in their side of— put on their side of the net. All right, once you have that discussion, then number 3, you end it with, I feel better about that, thank you. But you're— or ask them, how do you feel about it? Is there anything else that I can do? And you have that one-on-one, that heart-to-heart to say We set aside time for this. I need your help with this. And maybe they will, hopefully, if they're serious and this is a place that you need to be and work and have a professional career in. And hopefully this manager is someone who's going to accept this conversation and understand that they can help you, help you, that they have felt this way in the past and they can offer a great way forward. And that's how to have that difficult conversation. The biggest thing is just don't be afraid to ask them in a way that sounds like you're learning. When you come at it from an angle of wanting to be a student rather than an expectation of they should behave this way and you should behave that way, just soften that and say, look, I'm trying to learn here. I need your help here. I have ideas that could benefit this company or benefit this team, and I don't feel like they're being appreciated. How can I be better about that? And then listen. When you stop trying to prove something and start trying to learn and listen instead, magical things can happen in your life. And so when you talk with that supervisor and you have that discussion with him and you end it with, great, I feel better about this. How do you feel about it? He says, oh, I feel good. I feel X, Y, and Z. If, if this person is serious and wants to be a good manager and this is where you need to be in your life. That's how I would handle that conversation, Derek, and I wish you all the best. One of the biggest things that I want you to keep in mind about difficult conversations is that they are a catalyst for more real in your life. Real, genuine, authentic things in your life. Here's what I mean. The deeper relationship you want to have with someone, the greater tolerance you have to have for difficult conversations. If you only want easy, if you only want surface-level conversations, I'll show you a surface-level relationship. Think about the times or the closest people that you have in your life. These are the ones who have been with you, that have rolled up their sleeves and been in it with you from day one or at critical moments in your life that were not easy. They've been with you through the hard, the difficult. They've had those hard conversations with you.

What would you say are the biggest mistakes that people make when communicating with others? Biggest mistakes that people make in interpersonal communication?

They're communicating to win, not communicating to understand. Too often they feel like they have a point that they want to make, and you have to understand that point. You have to take and adopt that point. Not tomorrow, now. And there's this urge of control of, I need you to lose to me. I need to win the argument. When really, conversations, especially the difficult conversations and arguments, there's something to unravel, to find the knot in the heart of the matter, rather than finding that everything about it is conflicting. Because as soon as you win an argument, you lose a lot more. I mean, you lose your credibility, you lose that connection, that relationship. When, if you and I are in a bad argument and I I throw that cutting word at you so I can win just for that moment.

I mean, what'd I do?

You won.

Congratulations. I've now won awkward silence. I've now won contempt. I've now— I mean, we still have to probably communicate with that person in some way. You have to work with them, live with them. And that feeling of, oh, I finally gave that good zinger, it lasts 10 seconds. The next day you're going, why'd I say that? And now you regret. Now you have to apologize. And so that win you thought you wanted isn't what you needed after all.

You're so right. One of my favorite videos of yours, you share with people how to best apologize, which sounds like it would be so self-explanatory, you know, something just like hardwired into, you know, our psyche, but there's actually like a method to it. So how do we best apologize?

Well, it's more difficult than you think to do it in the moment. That's the hard part. And I break it down really into 3 bite-sized steps anybody can implement. And one is, it's the apology. This is the easier part of, "I'm sorry, I apologize." It's as simple as that. Two, it is telling them how they feel is reasonable and justified. For example, let's say the first part is, "Hey, I'm sorry that I said that." Second part is, "I understand how that could be upsetting," or, "You're right to be upset by that." You're acknowledging how they're feeling because that's really the key, is you have to kind of agree and acknowledge of, "Hey, how you feel is absolutely okay. It's not the 'can you just get over this?'" It's the acknowledgment part. And the last third is showing some kind of future step. In other words, you're showing that, "Hey, we're going to switch this in the future," and it might be that I understand now that this is important to you, or I'm, I'm going to make sure I don't bring up this topic again, or in the future I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. That's the only way you learn, because there's all— there's always those people, Max, that when you apologize and they apologize to you, you know it's— they're gonna do it again.

Yeah, yeah, it's—

they don't really mean it. But when you have some kind of future plan of action, it's showing that there's kind of a completion of the circle.

Yeah, and also I love how you break it down where, you know, it's important to apologize by saying I'm sorry I, as opposed to I'm sorry you, or I'm sorry that.

I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the words I'm sorry if. So a lot of times they have people that, um, I'm sorry if, if that upset you. To that you respond, it's, it's not if, it's that. It's a lot of times they want to make it conditional. I'm sorry if I hurt you, as if they don't know that it did. Or, I'm sorry that you— that's a terrible way to apologize. If you always say, I'm sorry that you— I'm sorry that you were offended, you don't apologize for their feelings. Apologize for what you did, you know. Apologize for what you said. So it's always, I'm sorry that I— that's taking that extra step of accountability.

What is it about your background as a lawyer that has given you this that is such a unique skill set?

Um, it's a little bit a mix of my own personality and law. Like, law school teaches you how to read the law, it doesn't teach you how to read people. And so I think some of that is just a natural inclination of my own personality. If I were to say what trial experience does as an attorney, meaning you're dealing with litigation, parties, courtrooms, hearings is that it allows you to see the conflict. It's very easy to kind of, instead of being right up in it, it's that power of detachment of I can see the communication happening while I'm talking to that person as if I'm watching it from a movie. And having that wherewithal helps you go, now this is how I need to tweak this, this is how I need to prepare this. Because when you're dealing with that difficult witness on the stand and you have 12 jurors who are watching, a judge, a bailiff, and court reporter, you're not just thinking of your next sentence. You have to think of how it looks in the entire picture. What's it going to make not just that person feel, as you would in regular communication, it's all the more important that it's how the others are going to feel about that interaction. So that's, that's where it comes into this power of seeing it from a third-person point of view.

Hmm, so how should we seek to make others feel about us when communicating? Is it all about just garnering likeness? Or like, how should we approach each interaction? Like, is it we want this person to like us, we want this person to respect us? I mean, maybe there are some people out there that appreciate being feared by others, which I think sounds actually quite pathologic. Yeah, but, but yeah, like, what is— what should be the goal of— I mean, I guess it might differ context, you know, in, in different contexts, but like, yeah, what is, what is the goal of like a healthy communication style?

Any healthy communication style is one where everybody is for the most part a balance, so there's not too much pressure from you and not too much pressure from me. It's not that you want everybody to like you. That's an innate thing, I think, within all of us. Like, when you meet somebody new, meeting you for the first time today, there's always an intrinsic part of me is I want this person to like me, vice versa. And how you communicate, to me, the only way to do that is to be as authentic as possible. When somebody is trying to be somebody they're not, we sense it. Like, when somebody's on the stand, the jurors have a sixth sense of if that person's being genuine are not. You can see it on social media. Somebody does a post and you go, I don't— there's something about this that feels off. It feels fake. They feel like they're trying to gain maybe sympathy, or maybe somebody is faking an emotion. Anytime you try to pour icing too much on somebody— if all I did was just compliment how great you were and how wonderful you are, it sounds good for a second, but then you go, that's— the more you say, the less I believe.

Yeah.

And there's this element of, now something about this is a facade. A surface of some sort. And what I teach and what I outline in the book is when you want to communicate truly, it's all about path of connection. Instead of always seeing things as a conflict, it's a way to connect to somebody.

And you do that by, one, saying things with control.

I mean, you're controlling not just your own body, but acknowledging and being able to recognize the symptoms in other people. Two is to say things with confidence, to be able to assert yourself in ways that you can speak, your needs more directly. Because I think that's a crucial element of real communication is when you are having that heart-to-heart, when I can share that and say things to you directly without feeling rude or that I'm taking advantage of you or manipulating the situation. And lastly, you say it to connect, meaning you handle that difficult conversation with one that you feel like you really stood your ground on, or you feel like you represented yourself rather than feeling like you always regretted that conversation, because we've all had those difficult ones where after you got done, you go, God, that, that went terrible, or I don't feel like I, I represented myself well. And that's, um, I think that's the way that you, you try to handle almost any conversation you can.

Yeah, and it speaks so much, I think, to the times that we live in where, you know, we're seeing now that long-form conversations by way of podcasting has really supplanted in many ways legacy media, the media of the past. You know, a couple of decades, right? Century almost, you know, where the communication style was inherently inauthentic. You know, like, um, local news reporters, I mean, they speak a certain way, and the way that they speak, right, is not how any other normal human being speaks.

Not even how they speak.

It's not even how they speak. Yeah, exactly.

I think you're right.

I, I believe that when COVID hit, it changed a lot because you saw people for who they were. You saw, um, people just posting from their phone, hair all messed up, just rolled out of bed. Um, I mean, messy bun, the whole thing.

They're just real.

And slowly, I think we're transitioning more to wanting to see the real, not the polish, not the fake, the facade. They truly want to feel that. I mean, a lot of your most followed creators that are not celebrities they don't have— I mean, if you see ones of somebody putting on their makeup, right? I mean, that's, that's what a lot of women do, and it's, it's real. Or guys that are just getting done with some kind of workout, or they're talking about kids stuff. It's, uh, people are looking for the real. Same in communication. They just want the real.

But you seem really nice for— I met a lot of trial attorneys back in the day. I used to work in the mental health and Rule 11 competency court.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, it was brutal. Not that nice of people all the time. You seem very happy and nice and well-adjusted.

Well, thank you. You can blame that on my parents. Yeah. I find that a lot of attorneys are nice.

Yeah.

They just think that that's what attorneys are supposed to be like.

Yeah.

Or do or be. So to me, that's, you know, like you put on a suit and tie.

Mm-hmm.

That doesn't change who they are.

Yeah.

It's also— it's their costume. It's their suit and tie. They feel like that's who they have to become. And so a lot of them I am personal friends with and they are great. I mean, you see, they're married. Somebody liked them. They have, you know, somebody liked them enough for a little bit to have kids. And then when you get in trial with them, they turn into different animals.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Are you a different animal when you do trial?

No.

No, you're the same?

Same. So what, and I find it to be a very, a great leverage point because people feel like I don't— I had this one time, I had a good friend, we were in trial and this was halfway through, and he goes, man, I hate trying cases with you. I said, what's going on? He said, I can't get mad. I can't get mad. I was like, oh, is that right? He goes, yeah, I typically have another attorney who messed up where I can start blaming them and then they don't— and just say they don't care about my client, they don't care about people, and start making them— it's like, I can't make a villain out of you. I can't make an enemy. And so it just happens to be something that everybody's looking for. We find, we do something and then we're trying to slowly find people that we can just blame it on.

Yeah, I liked that line you had actually, which was basically essentially that, that some people need a villain to validate their behavior. Using kindness prevents you from giving them an enemy.

Yeah.

How do you kill someone with kindness?

There's a theory that I like to put, and it's just being in the pocket. Like if you— with music, you have people that are rushing the tempo and people that are dragging. But when everybody's in rhythm, everybody's— the drummer's on the beat, everybody's in line, piano's good, everybody's bass— everybody starts to nod their head like, I got this, I feel good, I'm not rushing. Same thing with your personality. If you're, if you're somebody that— let's say I sit down and I'm really, really anxious, and like, I just love things, I love talking so much, and you're going really fast, it's easy to feel that rise up. But when you're somebody who slows down, it's a lot easier to calm down. You just kind of kill them with kindness to where if whatever they say, okay. It's not like I have to be direct with you, I have to battle you. It's this kind of weird martial arts, just be like water kind of thing.

Well, you kind of did it right there.

You know, when he says something that could be kind of incendiary, and you could have defended against, which is, I can't get mad at you. Like, I hate trialing you.

Right.

And your response was fascinating. You just said, oh, is that right?

Yeah. Is that right?

Is that what you do to deflect sort of villain-like behavior? You just get curious and ask questions?

Yeah.

People would say— you hear a lot in communication advice, you got to get curious. And I find that word, it can be kind of overused.

I think it's right.

It's spot on. But curious is often something that suggests that You have to really be interested. And sometimes it's just not the case. I don't have to be interested in their bad behavior. It's more of this mindset that you go into of water off a duck's back, where you can say whatever you choose to say. I can choose what I want to say. And a lot of it, people have a lot of opinions. You can keep it all inside your head without sharing any of it. So a lot of people were just these, all we do is create opinions and opinions and opinions. We want people to go with us. But I think the real power is just understanding you need to have fewer opinions and even fewer that you share. I feel like on social media, that's all we tend to do. But yeah, making yourself an easy target, also making yourself a villain for somebody's behavior. They want to blame it on you for making them behave a certain way or something like that. So it's really being able to not mind, because people feel like just because you said something, I have to have an opinion on it. Or just because you said something, I have to throw it right back. And it's not baseball, it's not tennis, it's not volleyball. I don't, I can just, if you say something ugly to me, Cody, and I could just let it fall. As if I look at it and go, is that really what you wanna say? You could, did you say the same thing I think you said? Versus me catching it, taking it personal. How dare you? That's when you get into the, that's when you lose track of who you are.

You've like kind of accepted their frame then basically. It's like, now you're defending against a frame, which allows you to sort of step into their world, as opposed to if you just question it back.

Yeah.

Then you call it like you switch the power tables or you switch the power law.

Yeah, yeah.

They like the, people say you flip the script or you flip the tables. For me, when somebody's acting poorly, you're kind of digging a hole. And when they're acting ugly towards you, you have the choice. Do you want to, jump in the hole with them and start saying all the ugly things? Or do you just want to say, how's it going down there? You know, it's okay. I'm up here anytime you want to come up, but you enjoy that down there. But you can tell, I mean, even how you and I are talking, we naturally, because I've been going a little bit slower, you go slower. And it happens in everyday conversation with all of it. I watch the videos. I love the videos that you have of you in the car. Of like content on the go.

Yeah.

Which I think is so cool.

You do this, you're the famous content.

Yeah, but it was different.

Somebody's filming you.

Yeah.

Like, mine's like I'm looking like I'm FaceTiming my grandma, you know, like something like that.

Endearing.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, but that would— that's, that's, uh, that's what you want. You want people to feel the authenticity.

Yeah.

And the communication.

Yeah. And this—

you do the same thing, like you— the content you put out is 100% you, and people know the difference.

Yeah, I'm always yelling at people though. You're very good at not, you're not so much of a yeller, huh?

No, I wasn't raised to be a yeller, but also I was also raised that if you really wanna feel, you really wanna make somebody feel bad, don't yell. There are people that wish, you've been in those situations where people wish you would yell. Like they feel like they're in the doghouse so bad, that they just wish that you showed, you yelled at them. They need that 'cause they'll do it to themselves. But also if you're a yeller, if all you do is stay like a level 8 or 9 all the time and you're always angry, people don't know the difference between what's a level 10 threat and what's still just your norm threat. So what really is the difference? Now, if I'm always at a 3 and then I need to raise to an 8, you can better believe they're gonna listen. Because they go, whoa, this is out of the blue. This isn't his normal. This is different. If you're always up there at the top, nobody's going to know the difference and they really won't listen to it. It's the same thing with just people who say less. You know, when people are in the habit of saying less and choosing their words, more people actually listen. It's like the economy of words. The less you give, the more they will listen. The more you say, the less they will.

Yeah, it's true. I was just interviewing Robert Greene the other day.

Yeah, how was that?

Oh, amazing. I mean, I was very nervous for that one because he— I love the book. I love the book. 48 Laws of Power.

I haven't met him, but I've heard he's cool.

He's very— I mean, he's in his 80s and he had a stroke and he moves real slow, but he has this huge brain and he's very thoughtful on each word and he's not playing any games. He's not really trying to make you like him. He's not—

Well, he's 80, right? I wouldn't either at that age.

We hope not.

I hope by then I kind of don't care. But he has, what I like about him, but you do a lot of it in just your own style, is he says sort of the quiet part out loud and he's honest about human nature. And then he uses all of these examples through history in order to overlay it. I don't know, have you ever read his book, The hard copy of The 48 Laws of Power.

So I have it and I know enough of it, but I haven't like—

if you open it, I wish I had— he gave me his like example of it, but in all the margins are sort of like these notes that he writes. It's cool in the book. It's almost like if you had taken your book and then everything that was in your book, you had put your thoughts about your writings in the book. Yeah.

And like actually written it in there.

And it's all in red and it's these quotes like There'll be a little Machiavellian story. There'll be a little story of Churchill.

Is that the one where like the binding of it has like one side it says face, the other is Machiavelli?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

It's very thoughtful.

I just left, I just got here from Bastrop from Ryan. And he showed me that book in his library.

Oh, that's wild. Yeah, that's the only reason. It's one of my favorites.

How small world.

Yeah, the world's weird.

As any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online because you want to know, are people going to like the book? That's the whole— you get very nervous. Are you going to deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you.

It's very short.

I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen, you are not a target. I was once told by my husband, you are an easy target and everyone knows it. Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips. That's what I thought it would be. No, it is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend, and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle Edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people. I was just taken aback. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says verified purchaser. This is my point with this is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way. You are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, this is where it stops. Rule number 1 in my book— there are 3 rules. It's rule number 1, say it with control. Number 2, say it with confidence. Number 3, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number 1 is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I can give you. None of it matters if you do not say it with control, if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're going to talk about in this episode what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Anytime that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally through its biology reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments. Even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you, when somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, hey brain, I didn't like that. And the brain goes, give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that. And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You want to say something back.

You get heated.

You're neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number 1 in my book is you use your breath as the first word that you say. And the reason why is because it adds a distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you. And it also The other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day, there are little things that tell your body, I am threatened. Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic. Somebody merges. Somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, I am threatened. That's where road rage comes from. I feel threatened in this environment. When you're talking with your kids, when somebody, says something to you that they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea. You don't like that. Your body's saying, hey, that feels threatening to me. I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later. Do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you, and we're going to put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude. Whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just feels like it sets you off? That just— you just explode when somebody does this to you.

You got it?

You find that word. Now, write it down. And right next to it, I want you to write, does not threaten me. Does not threaten me. So the sentence would be, dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me. This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body, hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, hey, this does not threaten me. That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body what is happening in front of me is not a threat, right? It's this idea that, um, you have— you've seen the big animals, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have like some, maybe a little dog or something, they just go, what is this? It's like a little animal coming up to a big animal. They're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, hey, what you're doing is— this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it. Cool. I'm going to tell you a quick story right now that I haven't— I don't think I've ever shared. This was maybe 3 weeks ago or so. And where was I? I think it was in San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport.

It may have been San Diego.

Everything's blurring, blending together at this moment.

And it's early.

Give me a break. Is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate, looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs. And then all of a sudden I was outside of it, outside of the security, the gate, the terminal. It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal. And I just walked myself all the way through. I had already gone through security. I had already gone through all the check-in, the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID. I had— I started walking out and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, or has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look and I go— I say this out loud— I go, oh my gosh, I gotta do this all over again because I have to know I'm going farther down where a separate terminal is. And I say, oh my gosh, I got to do this all over again. And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice, goes, that's why you should read the signs, sir. And I'm trying to find who that is, and I turn and look, and as I'm looking, she goes, you have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs. I don't know if you're feeling this just hearing it to me. Just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself. And I remember being just taken aback. Who, who are you? And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible. And I— hey, I'm an attorney, for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There's some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was middle-aged lady. Just looked so smug when soon as she said that. And this is what my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was kind of, it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it— I looked at her for like 5 seconds trying to figure out, is this—

did she say that?

And I just give it time, and now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, how do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Does it give you joy? That's what I said, verbatim. And immediately she got red, like, and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I don't have to prompt anything. She goes, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sir. You're right, that wasn't kind. You're right, sir. I'm sorry. Yes, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down. And now she was in helping mode. Now she's in helping mode. You can go right here, and this is where it's going to be. I would say, oh, well, thank you very much.

I appreciate that.

All right, you have a wonderful day. You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life. How are you going to react? What are you going to say to that person? Are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that going to ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me, is that what Excuse me, are you talking to me? You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you. It's not going to work. It ain't going to work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say. And we have different podcast episodes on that. And I'm going to continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know, and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today. You are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath. Regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean— did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time, and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These ways of responding to rude behavior that is actually not a response, it's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, "You spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours." No, it is a reflection of their own behavior and character. 9 times out of 10, the other person sees that because they— because you're giving them time to— are seeing— it's like, uh, the, the blood, the, the red— it's not blood— the red comes out of their system, you know, or somebody's seeing red. You have to give them time for that to go away, come back to normal. Come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not People are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have a better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that.

Cool.

All right. You are not a target. Hope you have a wonderful day.

You have a very calming demeanor, by the way. I mean, we just, we just met, you know, 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago, and I, I came on to the recording, I was like super frazzled, was a couple minutes late, and just the first few words out of your mouth, I was like, oh, he's a calm presence. He has like a very soothing voice and felt my, you know, felt my frustration and anxiety decrease a little bit just with that. Is that intentional? Like, have you intentionally learned how to present yourself and how to show up in a certain way in order to just deflate a situation?

The answer is that comes naturally from what I have, what's been modeled for me. I have, I will absolutely say that I have been blessed in a way to see models of diplomacy in my family and how they handle and address conflict. I grew up I'd get so mad. I mean, I'm a teenager, I'm getting mad at my mom. She's trying to control me. She's trying to do this. And I'd come to Dad and Dad would go, "So?" But Dad, I got this.

You don't understand.

He'd go, "So?" You know, I mean, and it was like, man, what? Yeah, he's right. And so his whole thing was, you know, hey, don't make that your Alamo. In other words, is that the hill you're going to die on? Really? And he was just so good at deconstructing a lot of the ways I would, I would feel that. And it became very natural to me in my demeanor to slow down. And as an attorney, especially, I very much honed that behavior because my sole job is to send my clients into just intense conflict. So I have to train them and teach them and calm them down in very significant ways. And a part of that is what I've learned now, now that I've like working backwards of why, why is that? That my lower voice or using a calming voice, a slower register, which comes very natural to me, actually makes other people's, their sympathetic nervous system, like it matches their energy and the frequency. To calm them down. So they oftentimes— it would be different if I came on and I just started yelling, or I was really intense. You're gonna also feel that intensity. So we tend to mirror each other. And so when I come in, I'm a lot more calming and talking about our day and how's your morning gone. Then your body's like, oh, I like— okay, I can match this frequency.

And then it kind of just starts to ease, to ease in, to ease down, that's for sure.

Yeah.

Let's talk about the, the person who is angry, wants justice, believes they're right, wants their way. You probably deal with some of these people every day. Every, every day. What is your— what have you seen work? How do you get people to shift their mindset and shift their behaviors so that the other person can actually hear what they're trying to say?

So let's put it in a context. Let's say, let's, let's put it, I assume for your readers, it's marriage, it's relationship. Let's put it, let's put it contextually. They come into the kitchen. What's, what's happening?

Yeah. Okay, they come into the kitchen. And let's say they're, it's, let's say it's a wife, she's been working hard all day getting the house clean, making dinner. And for the fifth night in a row, her husband is not home on time for dinner, like he said he was going to be. And it's not just the fact that he's not home. It's he doesn't respect me. He doesn't love me. This isn't right.

Right.

And so he comes in, and he doesn't see what the big deal is. And she's upset and feels disrespected and unloved. And what she says to him is, why are you never home? Why don't you want to be with me? You need to change. Like, we have to start spending more time together. So on and so forth.

That's hard. And let's, let's make it even harder. Let's say kids are around.

Yeah, let's— absolutely, they're sitting at the dinner table.

Yeah, let's make it more— let's make it even harder. Kids are sitting at the dinner table, they're already finishing dinner, and husband comes in late. So mom has a choice at that moment. Do I, do I address this now? Do I address this later? Now that I think the first part of it is personal preference. I would recommend that it is not addressed in front of the kids. That's just my, that's my personal belief. I grew up in a household that if you wanted to have a significant, you know, conversation, even if it was an argument, it needs to be done away from child's ears because they don't, they don't understand the context. And I don't, I don't believe that kind of behavior, should it turn ugly, should be modeled in in front of kids if you, if you can't have it in a healthy way. But it sounds like under our scenario, it's not going to be had in a, in a very healthy, healthy way. So dinner goes exactly as it should. You can either choose to address, say, you know, hi, Dad's here, let's finish dinner, let's have bed, let them have a good night's sleep, let them have a good night's rest. Then you turn to address the conversation in the room. What you don't want to do is start off with a why, pushing the why question. Yes, that's the question you want to know, but when you put it in terms of a why, very much feels like a challenge. So it pushes a threat to our body of challenging your autonomy. It challenges your competence. If I were to just say to you, Kimberly, let's say you did something, I said, why'd you do that? Our immediate response is, because I wanted to. You know, who are you to question me? Yeah, yeah, because that's what I wanted to do. What's— what's it to you? So it works the same way. You have times where if you start with why, it is immediately going to put them defensive because it is a challenge. It is a trigger to people. So the first question— my style is very much a diplomatic, let's come to the root of the matter. Because if you just start complaining that they're late, they know that they're late. So you complaining that they're late does nothing in terms of resolving the real issue.

Right?

It's just you venting. If you need to vent, tell them that you're going to vent. If you need to put a frame around it, I just need to vent to you for a second. I want to talk about this later. You know, I want to talk about it afterwards, but I need you to be a place to just vent. They probably aren't going to want to hear that. Bigger issue is going to need to be, you know, where is this coming from in terms of the repeated behavior. A very much more powerful way, I think, way to address this is, do I need to give up on the idea of you coming home on time? Um, because if you ask it that way, they will answer in the negative of like, no, no, you don't need to, I can do this, I can do this. At the same time, you need to be very mindful of what's happening in their day as to why they're late. And that means you're asking questions more along the lines of, um, what happened today? How was your day? Like finding out, because you really don't know, right? Most of the time, if you just— like, typical scenario, right, Kimberly, is they come home late, kids are down. Great. So you're just going to be— I guess you're just never going to be home. Is this what it is? Like, you said you're going to be home the other week. You have no clue what happened in his day. Who knows? It could be something where it's maybe something at work, maybe it was traffic, maybe it was— who knows? So you always have to have a pause to understand what's, what's really happening in their world. If it is a complete sign of disrespect that they know that they're being late and they just don't want to be around, that's much more of a boundary that you, that you need to put up and be much more assertive and aggressive with it. That means that sounds more along the lines of, I'm interested in a relationship that shows up. If you're not interested in that, in being with us at dinner, I need to know that now. There are times where I think you need to ask them in ways that want them to talk to you rather than want them to close up to you. So often we feel like the answer is to attack. When that just makes them clam up more, rather than trying to be understanding of what is it about, what is it about us that makes you not want to be here? And that starts to crack that a whole lot more.

And it also, I mean, the other part of that is being able and willing to hear what they might honestly say. Yeah, because sometimes those answers back might be, well, then, no, there is something about us that makes me not want to be here, and here it is, right? And then that can lead to a cycle of poor interaction, poor communication.

Yeah, you'll get in a circle. Yeah, how many times you get in a— it's cyclical where you're getting in an argument, you come to the same place, but it just gets worse.

It just gets worse. And, and Jefferson, I can imagine that, you know, with you having a history, a family history, a professional history, just the experience in your life, the, the, the— what's the word I'm looking for? Like the importance that you have put on communication just in general for you. You probably tend to show up communicating well in your, in your conversations and in arguments. But there are probably people that you get in arguments with or disagree with, and they don't give the same kindness back, right? Like they don't think of not using, not saying it in a challenging way and saying why, right? So how do you handle, so we can still continue to use the example of the wife who's mad at the husband. So let's say the wife is doing all these things. She's approaching it in the right way, not asking why, but looking to see what the core issue is. Is using all the wrong communication styles and blaming her and X, Y, and Z, and she's having to like keep her calm in the middle of a very difficult conversation. How would you recommend to continue on in that conversation when the other person is difficult to talk to?

Oh yeah, well, that's, that's just about any argument. They're going to be difficult to talk to, especially when you're trying to calm things down in a way. So what has been very beneficial for me is that I frame my arguments at the outset. So let's say I'm the wife in this situation. And I know deep down, he's a good dad, or that he really loves us.

That's not the issue.

You know, there's not a fear of like, are you going around? Do you not love me? That's, that's not the issue. It's just, he's not, He's not coming home when he said he's going to come home. To me, you can frame a conversation by one, acknowledging what you know, and a quality you want them to have. So if you and I can really in a— maybe let's say you and I are in an argument. And I can start at the outset of saying, look, I know that I know that being on time is important to you. I know that attention to detail is important to you. I know that respect is important to you. Whatever quality I want you to have at that time, I want you to show up in, I say it, I speak that over the conversation. So if I am the wife, I said, look, I know that you love us and you love our children. And so you give it to me at the outset, boom, you've set the tenor of They are now not going to be feeling threatened of, I have to show you how much I love you. But I do this, but I do that, but I mow the yard, but I did this, I paid the bills, I'm working. Like, I know, I know that you work hard for us and our family. Boom, I've already calmed it down. That's, that's, you've hit a fear that they could have. Then you frame it, you put an end to the conversation, and not an end, but you put a backstop to it. I want to have a conversation with you, a real conversation with you about you coming home late. And at the end of it, I want to know why you're not coming home late and ways that we can think together of making sure you're home on time. I want to be a help to that. Boom, you've now put a backstop on it. Say, hey, we're going to have this conversation. Maybe it gets ugly. Maybe it gets tense. But I've already claimed at the end of it This is how I want this to go. Can you agree to that? And when you get their buy-in into the conversation on the end, that's always better. So a lot of times, you don't have to agree how to get there. You just have to be aligned on the goal. So if you can get them to buy in on, are you willing to engage in a conversation with me about ways we can get you here on time? If they're down for that, Okay, then let's, then let's talk about it. What's, what's happening? Uh, you're gonna find way more success than that in this just throwing darts game. Yeah, because that's typically— we just like to send zingers, things that can hurt. I'm here with the kids, you're not. I have this, you're not. And all you're doing is making— you're hurting them, you're making them defensive, and you're not at all addressing the true issue.

A key takeaway I took from what you just said is entering into the conversation with a goal.

Yeah. Yeah.

And how often do people not?

Every time.

I mean, how many times have we been in an argument and you think to yourself, exactly, uh, how did this start? Where was I going?

Where was I going with this?

You go around.

Where am I wanting to end? Or even like, what's the point?

That too.

You go, how—

one, you say, how did we even How did we start? And then how do we get out of this argument? Like, we've just— we've lost our way. How did this even begin? You started talking about ironing clothes, and next thing you know, you're talking about, you know, something that happened in 2007 on a bad date that you had. Like, you just never know. Goals, goals, knowing what you want the end goal to be before you even start. Often cuts down a lot on the fluff.

So you and your wife, do you just have super effective communication, clear-cut arguments that have a goal in mind? Like, or does she ever get frustrated that she's up against someone who's like a pro at communication? Or do you ever get frustrated? Yeah, yeah, because maybe she's better at it than you. Who knows?

She's an attorney too. Actually.

Oh my.

Yeah, but we've known, we've known each other since we were teenagers, so, um, knew each other long before we were attorneys.

Yeah.

And all it means in terms of an attorney is that she just knows if I ever— if, well, either one of us ever go into cross-examination mode.

Explain what that means for the listeners.

Uh, that means I'm— I am asking questions to prove a point. Like I'm using my questions to prove my point for me. And so if I wanted— let's think of a scenario. If I wanted to prove that, you know, you left the garage door open— I don't know, I'm just making something up— and she's saying, no, I didn't. My cross-examination mode is, um, you know, you had, you had carpool that day, yeah? You, you left after I did. Yeah, I didn't get home before you, did I? No, you're the one who left the garage door open. Like, you're like, I'm, I'm poking, I'm using my cross-examination, my questioning to prove my, my point.

So, but isn't that effective in the courtroom?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying is it's not beneficial for interpersonal relationship. It's, it's Yeah, yeah. I just mean that to say that we're both very aware of when we go into that mode. And as soon as we do, we're very quick to say, do not cross-examine me. Oh, yep, sorry. Like, it's just a habit. You can't really help it, but we're very aware of when that's happening. But yeah, do I get frustrated? Does she get frustrated? Absolutely, yeah.

With what's happening with the offering you're putting out in the world of teaching people how to communicate, I'm curious for you, Jefferson, like, What are some of the traits that you admire most in people who you feel are the best communicators in the world?

Probably number one would be warmth. People that you just— you don't even have to talk to them. You can sit in a room and just feel it. And maybe it's their energy, maybe their vibe, maybe it's their spirit. Just whatever it is, the frequency that they're putting out. Into the world calms you. And I find that to be very— it makes you attracted to them because you like that warmth and that comfort that when you talk to them, you feel just a little bit calmer. And so people who communicate very well are not only good at being clear and direct and assertive, but they're also emotionally intelligent enough to know when to slow down. 'Cause things are so busy, and we ramp up, but they know that good communication happens in the smallest of words, the shortest of sentences.

When someone allows their warmth to just be, do you feel like it's easier to listen to them and be around them? 'Cause I think a lot of people, especially women, feel like, "Oh, I've gotta, you know, if I show my warmth, I'm weak, and I need to," you know, all the things. And I just think that's kind of powerful and insightful what you just shared is that when you think of the best communicators, that there's a warmth.

Yeah, well, I think you'd agree you never wanna hide your light. And I mean, there's so many opportunities that we have to do that. And it's leaning into it.

If people feel like, well, I'm gonna be weak if I'm perceived this way.

If you go by how you listen to music, Things that are very fast, um, affect you. It makes your mind race. When somebody's talking really, really quickly and then you can't even hardly understand what they're saying and they're getting, uh, ramp up and ramp up, that kind of gets you and your anxiety up. But people who slow down, they show more control. It's not the opposite. They show more control, more confidence. When you're adding distance to your communication, you are showing them that you you are comfortable exactly where you are. And that also shines onto them to show that, and where you are is okay too.

One thing that you seem so masterful at that I feel like I need to work on more is this idea of pausing and of giving space. And this is gonna be a big thing for everyone listening because when we dive into all the different topics that are gonna affect our lives in so many different ways when we start applying the tools that you share. There's this consistent theme of pause and of space. And I'll never forget the first time I ever gave even a keynote speech, right? It was like a room of, I think it was like 10,000 people. And all this stuff was, it was for a Brendon Burchard event, actually. And it was the first time outside of IT Cosmetics. And it was a long story, but he's like, "I have an opening." And I'm like, "I'm in." this hour spot, and it was the most phenomenal hour. But every time people cheered or even stood up and cheered or any of the things, 'cause it was really fun, and I was just like pouring into them, I didn't know how to pause. The second they started clapping, I didn't know, and I just kept talking. And I remember afterwards he came up to me and he says, first of all, like he said, a million great things, which I'm so grateful for. And then he's like, "You need to learn how to pause and let the audience like have their moment. Like they're excited, they're cheering for you, they're into it, they're so excited that you overcame this huge obstacle." And I was like, "Huh, I didn't know how to let the pause happen." And what I love is you guys, you give so many examples in your book of ways the pause is so powerful, but just really high level, this is for everyone listening, I want you to think right now, as you're hearing me and Jefferson, talk about this. When you're talking with someone, do you ever just pause and like let there be space? And maybe you're looking at them in the eye, or do you start to feel uncomfortable and wanna fill the space with words? Can you talk about the power, the power of the pause and how right now everyone at home, like different ways you can use just pausing in your communication and how it actually literally helps change your life?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Pausing is the most powerful tool you can use in communication because it gives you time to choose things. It gives you time to choose, is this worth my words? Is this worth my attention? It also gives you a chance to calm your own emotions, to regulate your emotions. It gives you time to think. And when you're able to pause in conversation, it allows you to show control. If you were to ask me, Jamie, if you said, "Jefferson, how was your day?" And I immediately said, "Good. I mean, my day was fine. It was good. It was good." That tells you one thing. If you ask me again, "Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "It was good. It was good." Very different connotation. What you're telling in the first one is, "I didn't really listen to your question." The second pause is kind of clarifying of, "Listen, I listened to you." When somebody even gives you 1 second, 2 seconds of a pause after a question, it tells you that they're thinking about it. And it's allowing you to show that you're actually acknowledging, taking it in before you just spit out a response right away. Because we're such in a world of immediacy, of texting back right away, saying that, having that clapback as soon as you get it out. And where the real power in communication is, is slowing things down. It's the pause, because it allows the other people, like, just like you said, when you're speaking to people and maybe they clap or they cheer, it's allowing them to contribute to the conversation.

I just had a big aha moment, like a big aha moment, because at our core, we all just want to be seen and understood and also feel connection. And belonging, and so many people feel so lonely right now. And often, you know, social media can be great in so many ways, but we're lonelier than ever. And one tip you just gave, I think this is so big, and I wanna say it in the way where it really hit me, is that example you gave. 'Cause we all have this happen every day, right? How are you? You know, we go and grab a coffee and, you know, we might ask the person ringing us up, how are you? Or they might ask us, how are you? And we just default, "Oh, I'm great, thanks. How are you?" You know, whatever, boom, boom. And we don't even know what we're saying. It's just like autopilot. And yet we're all lonely and we all want more connection. And we're like, "Why is my husband and I sitting here scrolling our phone? And I don't even know how he is. I told him how I was, but I don't think he cares." Like whatever our scenario is, or, you know, mom's at school drop-off or whatever it might be. That example you just gave, It's so powerful and it's so relatable because, you know, when someone says, "How are you?" And you're like, "Oh, I'm good, thanks." There's pretty much no connection happening, right? And when someone says, "How are you?" And you just pause and you think about it and then you say your answer, maybe it's like, "I'm good," or whatever it is, that pause instantly tells that other person I see you. You matter to me. I'm giving you my energy and consideration, 'cause I care to connect with you over the question you asked me.

Yeah, you got it.

Holy moly. That is like instant hack to connection with humans. And we're all, so many of us are just feeling like we're missing that in our lives more and more. I have heard you use the pause instead of the word, in so many different ways. And this is the first time I'm having this big aha over this. Because right now, every person listening, every person watching us, right now, today, they can watch it, walk into a coffee shop, they can look at the person sitting next to them in the room right now, right? They can, whatever, next time they're interacting with people and someone asks them this, or they ask someone else that, add this pause in it. Because then it almost catches someone off guard too, and they realize, you are connecting with them. You're connecting with them.

Yes, when you're able to ask that question—

I'm gonna do this with my husband tonight.

You should do it.

I'm doing it tonight. You should. I'm doing it tonight. And I'm gonna do it with my kids, actually. I'm gonna do it with my kids, too.

Well, it's so— what we fall into is instead of living in it, we're just pressing the buttons.

Yes.

You know, they breeze to ask, "How's your day?" "Oh, it's good, I'm fine." "How are you?" "Oh, I'm good, I'm fine." We're just pressing buttons.

—best guess.

—We're not really living in it. Let me tell you the one trick to making sure that it does work with your kids and with your husband. We want the trick.

We want the trick.

This is what I live by, and I teach this to every one of my clients. And it is this: let your breath be the first word that you say. So where your first word would be of going, "No, I'm good. I'm good," you put a breath. In its place. And so when you have the mindset of a breath being the word, I mean, it's because you're saying something even in that pause, in that breath, in that silence. It might be the absence of words. It's not the absence of communication. So if you ask me how my day was and I go, I conveyed something right there. That's a sigh. I'm sending the message to you without words, it was heavy. It was a load. It was a lot. I mean, yeah. And when you have that pause, it's the invitation to connect.

Hmm. So good.

Yeah, so good.

Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm already excited for the way everyone is going to share how this impacts their life. Yes. Like, the DMs are gonna come in, comments, the messages, and we're just getting started. But that one tool That one tool. I'm just thinking about— and the ripple effect of that. Yeah. Because as a society, we're really close to bankrupt when it comes to, like, true, just connection. It really is.

And the thing with communication, what makes it so important, on top of just the pause and the ability to take a moment and express how you really feel, is that what you say for the vast majority of your life is who you are. That's how people will experience you. That's how people will experience Jamie. That's how people will experience Jefferson. It's not by really what you do, though they might see that act of kindness. It's what you say. When you say, "I like that person," you just met them. You say, "I like that person. They were nice." What you really mean is, They said nice things. Somebody's rude and you don't like them, that person's rude. Just means that what you heard is you didn't like, it sounded rude to you. So for the vast majority, it is your words is what describes who you are to those people. That's what's gonna describe and evaluate your legacy. That's the ripple effect.

If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there.