What is the upside & downside of communication | Jefferson Fisher
In this interview, Jefferson Fisher, author of Argue Less, Talk More, explains why communication is the single most decisive factor shaping personal and professional outcomes. He argues that mastering conversation can unlock career opportunities, improve relationships, and give a massive unfair advantage in a media landscape dominated by podcasts and video, while poor communication leads to negative self‑talk, repeated relational and career failures, and reduced self‑esteem. Fisher describes his approach to teaching millions of followers: distilling complex advice into three‑point, ultra‑concise scripts and focusing on the "next conversation" rather than first impressions. He shares concrete, physiological techniques—using a controlled breath or "physiological sigh" to prevent the fight‑or‑flight response, intentional pauses, and deliberately slowing speech—to increase calm, presence, and perceived control. These methods are applied across contexts, from everyday arguments and interviews to high‑stakes legal depositions, helping clients articulate boundaries, answer questions confidently, and maintain composure. Fisher notes his audience has grown to nearly 12 million people, all seeking tools to handle upcoming conversations rather than merely reacting to past ones.
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You've written the book on conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. Why does it matter to the average person listening now that's just clicked on this conversation? Why does it matter to them?
Yeah, where some people would teach you how to play an instrument, I tell you what chords to play. I give you the sheet music. And so once you know where you are, even in your voice, what matters are the actual words that you say. And I can change two sentences, two words, and change your life just by what you decide to say next. Because where you've been in your whole life comes down to your communication and how you handle conflict. Where you left one relationship because of most likely some type of communication led you to another, or where you are in your job, or where you are in a podcast. It all comes down to what you've communicated and where you are in the conversation at all times.
Do you really think it's that pivotal to your outcomes in life?
Oh, absolutely.
So if I, if I became a 10 out of 10 communicator, like I became the best communicator in the world, what outcomes in my life, what areas of my life do you think will radically improve?
I think you could almost get to wherever you wanted to go if you were a 10 out of 10 communicator. You can— how you get hired for jobs, let's say in your career, comes down almost exclusively to how you communicated right there in that interview. You know, people have a wonderful resume, but they have no ability to communicate that. And without the ability to say anything and say it at least effectively, then they're not going to get what they want. Or you have people who have been in those relationships where they've continually been stepped on, and they're wonderful people inside. And if they were only with the right person, or if they could express how they wanted and what they needed at that time, their whole world would really change.
I think a lot about this because of podcasting, and it's one of the slightly unfortunate, unfair elements of running a podcast is sometimes you come across people who have done the most extraordinary work ever. They could be a scientist in a lab in Boston in America, or they could be, I don't know, some exceptional expert in some niche field. But the reason why they often don't get the platform, the stage on podcasts or on TED Talks, whatever it might be, isn't because of their sort of merit. It's purely because of their ability to communicate the ideas. And I think the more and more we head into this sort of like content, YouTube, podcasting world where that's like the dominant form of media, it's such an unfair advantage if you can communicate. Like you can be 50% as good in terms of skills or experience, but if you can communicate effectively, the unfair advantage you will have in your life, I think, is just completely disproportionate.
I couldn't agree more. You have a huge head start in this space. You can— if you're somebody who you may know more than anybody else in that class, but if you don't have the ability to take up the room, if you don't have the ability to capture somebody's attention and hold it and communicate what you need, nobody will listen. And it is an unfair advantage. It's a great way to put it.
What's the downside then? So if I'm a terrible communicator, if I'm a 1 out of 10 communicator currently, A, what does that look like? But B, what does— what do the outcomes look like in my life?
The outcomes are you're going to start to be negative on yourself. You're going to start to talk to yourself in very negative ways. And really, it's a hopeless feeling. You're going to run into relationships where you're running into the same problem. You're going to go into jobs where you start to run into the same problem, where it's almost cyclical, where you're not being able to say what you need to say. That makes a huge difference when you say, look, I'm not going to— I'm not going to allow myself to be treated this way anymore. When you don't even know how to voice your own boundaries or enforce those boundaries or things of how you want and where you want to go in your life, what you're going to find is you're just going to be unhappier more often and more unsatisfied. And that's a really hopeless feeling.
How many followers have you got online now across all your channels?
I think we're close to 12 million.
It's crazy.
Yeah, you tell me.
Is there, is there an attorney that has that many followers on Earth?
No.
What is it you're doing for those 12 million people at the very core of it?
Yeah, they come to me and they watch my videos not to fix or learn from what happened in the last conversation. They're coming to me because they want to know how to handle the next conversation. And what I do is I give them these snippets the same way I would in an opening argument or a closing argument. I go with 3 main points. I try to condense a whole lot of information into something that has very little. So you take what would be 40 pages and you turn it into 2 sentences, and you turn that into 1 sentence, you turn to 7 words. And what I do is I give them the sense of, hey, I can do that, I can do that. All I have to do is switch this word out. Oh, I can see the impact of just flipping 1 little word or reversing the way I'm giving that sentence, and it creates a very different outcome every time.
So let's get into that then. You said you help them focus on the next conversation.
Yeah.
What do you mean by that?
So often we think of first impressions versus the next conversation. So you and I meet the first time, or you meet your date or somebody, first job interview, and everything's great. Everybody has their best face on. Everything's wonderful. But it's typically that next conversation where something's different. You get to learn if the first impression is the lasting impression, if somebody was really who you thought that they were. You put it in terms of an everyday argument, let's say with a spouse or friend. You have friction. That friction ignites, and then you start to both yell at each other, and then you throw insults at each other, and everything gets louder and louder and louder. Eventually somebody crosses the line and says something they don't mean. And it dies. Go, forget this. I'm out of here. Gone. They leave. Then there's a next conversation, and that one sounds a lot different than the first one. It sounds a lot quieter, a lot slower. People say, what I meant to say was, or yeah, I shouldn't have said that. What my intent was. Then they start to clarify. Then they start to apologize. Then they reframe. Oh, I can see how you take it that way. No, no, no. What I meant was what they care about in the next conversation is always much different than what they focused on in the first conversation. So the key is how do you take that next conversation and get it there to be the first one?
And where do we have to start to understand this? Like, I want to be a much better conversationalist and I want to be a much more effective communicator. I want to argue less. I want to talk more. I want to be heard more. This is probably reflective of most people listening right now. So if If I was a student of yours coming in to be trained by you, where is the first place you would start with me?
Number one?
Yeah.
You say it with control.
Okay. What do you mean by that?
Yeah. So when you're in an argument with somebody, what happens automatically is your fight or flight starts to take over. Even in a little argument, even in the very— especially even in the small ones. If I disagree with your opinion, your Fight or flight kicks in because your body's saying, hey, I'm being undermined. Your mind is telling you, hey, I didn't like that. What he's saying is different from what I'm saying. You know what? We're going to think of some other things. It's going to put that down immediately. What I want to do is say something that is going to fight. In other words, I'm going to hurt you. I want to say something that's going to cut you. I want to say something that is hurtful. Or we run from it. Ever had somebody been on the phone and go, you know, I'm over this, and hang up?
Yeah.
Or they go, I'm out of here. You know what? Forget this. And they go and slam the door. That's their flight. That's their— they're leaving. It's, I feel threatened in this current moment by this conflict, by this differing view. So I need to get out of it. When you decide to say it with control, you make sure that that doesn't happen. And it all begins with your breath. All right? That's the key. So what I teach every one of my clients is let your breath be the first word that you say. So we'll run through it right now. That's cool? All right, so let's do it, an exaggerated one. And what this is called, and it takes advantage of, is a physiological sigh. So what we're gonna do is 2 seconds in through the nose, one more at the top, and then go, ah.
Yeah, okay.
How do you feel after you do that?
Very relaxed.
Yeah, all right, cool. So what we're gonna do is get a shortcut to that exact result. This time we're going to do it same thing, but don't make the noise. One more to stop. Through the mouth again. Now instead of the mouth, only through the nose. Ready? Now we did that almost a little— that was very intentional. So let's do it again, but give it a haircut as if you don't even You're not even going to get me to notice. Ready? That right there. Now, that is your go-to whenever somebody is telling you something that you disagree with. That is your go-to before you even say your first word, because it is going to make sure that that fight or flight never kicks in. It keeps that analytical side, that logical side in it the whole time instead of going, oh, wait, they can't yell at me like that. No, no, that's, that's a dumb idea. Can you believe that you say— instead of that, that's your fight or flight. You never even gave yourself a chance to breathe.
Breathe.
When you breathe and use that, what I call a conversational breath, now it allows you to go, huh, I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it like that. Now it allows you to kind of stay detached from that current moment because you're injecting your breath into it. When you allow yourself to breathe, then it's going to keep you much calmer. And so anytime I have a client that maybe is getting a question from an attorney that would be triggering to them or upsetting to them, it's always the training of use your breath while they're asking the question and start getting really curious as to why they're asking that. What's the point that they're trying to prove? Don't look at the surface of the question. Look at the intent behind it. Where are they trying to take you? Whenever I can teach them that, it's, it's a very powerful result.
And to do that, I have to kind of be comfortable with the fact that there will be a pause between my response and their question.
Yeah.
Which is quite uncomfortable for a lot of people.
You think, but the more they do it, the better it becomes. In fact, I like it because it tells you that I actually listened. So let's say, for example, ask me about my— just say, how was your day, Jefferson?
How was your day, Jefferson?
It was good. It was good. My day was great. You know, it was a day. Ask me again.
How was your day, Jefferson?
It was good. It was a good day. I liked it. You see how one says, I didn't even think about what you asked me. The other says, no, I actually thought about the question. I considered it, and then I chose my answer. And so that you can do that even when, especially for leaders, they go into a very busy work environment where there are problems right on the floor. They have to address this right at that current moment. The bad leaders will get very hectic and rise to that same level of energy. The great leaders will capture the calm energy. They inject that breath and go, okay, what's next? Have you ever— my grandfather, for example, I can ask him. One time I was like, hey, do you know where your screwdriver is? And he goes, Yeah. I mean, like, you know what I mean? But I mean, it just— but there's something about it where these kind of people in your life that you're looking and drawn to, the calm energy, the anchors in your relationship and your conversations, the people that just to be near them calms you down, just to be around them, you go, okay, great. Stephen's here. I feel better. Good. Okay, he's here. All right, things are going to go all right. Because they're looking for the person who is going to be the lead, not just in the conversation, but the frequency of the room. It's a calm energy that you have to capture.
When you took that pause when I asked you how your day had been, two interesting observations I had. The first is whatever you were about to say next, I trusted more because you had had some time to think and you weren't just spewing out your automatic response. So I thought, oh gosh, what's he going to say here? And there was this element of like, he's really thinking. He's like, he really cares about giving me the honest answer. And the second one is, as I was just so much more intrigued, right? Because I could see you thinking. So I thought, this is going to be an interesting response. Yeah. And that was all in that one second where you took a breath.
You can see that a lot in interviews, right? The person who you go, oh, this person is smart, is when you ask them a regular interview question, and if they give a breath before they answer, you go, oh, they actually are listening to me. The ones that have this rapid fire of— let's say, for example, and this uses another technique, that we'll talk about is if you were to say, would you bring some value? Do you think you bring value to this company? And if I automatically said, oh yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, I think I would, I think I'd bring a lot of value to this company versus I'm confident I'd bring a lot of value to this company. Like you hear all of a sudden you go, that's, that's my person. They actually heard me, considered it, and I'm really curious about what they're going to say next.
There was something— is there something in the contemplation which means that I believe you checked.
Yeah.
Like, it's a simple way to describe it. In that second example where you paused and said, yeah, I bring a lot of value to this company, I was like, he actually checked.
Exactly.
He like checked. He believes it. So I believe it.
Right. And that's why every time I teach a client and I'm preparing them for their deposition, what they call a depo—
when you say client, who do you mean?
You mean— yeah. So people that hire me in my law firm. Right. And now that's translated to me doing it on my phone and teaching, teaching people in my own membership is I would say, okay, let your breath be the first word. And once you do that, you are going to be— the other person is going to go, oh man, they really listened to my questions. The attorneys, we want to get you, we want to get you in a rapid fire. We want you to answer very quickly. Even better is when you start to step over my question, answer the question that you think I'm already going to ask. When you do that, that means you're not listening. You're not listening. But when I can get a client to stop, breathe and go, yeah, you know what? That's not— that's not fair. I had a client, Elizabeth, who one time when I was prepping her, I would kind of— I would act as the other attorney. So I do that often to help get them and simulate what's going to happen. I would say, all right, Miss Carson, come on, I need you to answer this question. That's true. It's fair to say you didn't see that other car, did you? And I kind of start to push them. That gets them really nervous, you know, like, oh my gosh, and their nerves get up. It's because they're not breathing. When people start to shake, they're just not breathing. And so she didn't know what to say, and I'm prepping her. Come time after I taught her about her breath, same question. Somebody said— and I knew this attorney, I knew he was going to ask that question— he said, it's fair to say you didn't see that other car. And she took a breath. She goes, "No, that's not fair to say." I mean, I just left it at that. I mean, and he just couldn't really do anything with it. But the bigger thing was it gave her the confidence of saying, "No, I listened. I see where you're going with this. I'm not gonna go there." And so it helps you navigate and empower you really with the tools of making sure you're always saying it with control. Another part of saying it with control is slowing your words down. When people talk really fast without thinking about it, it gets us kind of anxious. When somebody is talking really, really fast, okay, I'm trying to understand you. It's harder. Let's say, I mean, I like hip-hop, I like rap music. If you listen to somebody who's rapping really, really fast and you can't understand a word they're saying, you kind of like, okay, I'm lost in this song. I like the beat, that's great, but I can't understand what you're saying. People that slow their words down shows a lot more effectiveness when you communicate. So let's illustrate this. I want you to say quickly, with some, almost some exasperation, I already told you I'm not going to do that. Say that real quick.
I already told you I'm not going to do that.
Say it louder.
I already told you I'm not going to do that.
Perfect. Now what you do is slow it down. Slow it way down. Each word. You don't have to have the disdain with it. Just slow it down. Say it again.
I already told you I'm not going to do that.
Say it even slower.
I already told you I am not going to do that.
Oh, man, that's awesome. Yeah. So you see how without the emotion.
Yeah.
You sounded even more in control.
Yeah.
Somebody who goes, I already told you I'm not going to do that. Says I have maybe 5% control. But if I slow it down, same thing, and I say, I already told you I'm not going to do that. Now I sound like I have 100% control. This is the person you go, whoa, okay, they're not moving off their spot. They're not somebody who's— I can't press their buttons and control their emotions that way.
What type of person struggles with this?
Somebody who would be not aware of their emotions, not aware of their triggers. Somebody who just— let's put it as a lack of awareness of certain things.
Does one's self-esteem and one's insecurities play a role in this?
Yeah, I mean, they play a role with anything. My counter to that is we can overcome it. It's not your self-esteem that's talking, it's the words. The words do it for you. There are people who have a hard time saying what they want. It's the words that they need to say. So when somebody is having a hard time with self-esteem, what I find is all I need to do is get them to start beginning their sentences with certain words, and it's always a different outcome. They just don't know how to begin it. So it's very curious on how, like, somebody who rarely does— people with self-esteem issues say, I need, for example. They typically don't like to say that because it feels too forward. Somebody who has self-esteem issues will typically begin with, so, you know, maybe like, uh, and I was thinking this, and you can, you can totally tell me if I'm wrong, but, uh, that's the kind of thing that you typically hear. They're just using the wrong words to begin their sentences. You have to find words that push the progress of the sentence. For example, if someone says "like" all the time, "I mean, when you said that, like, it just really upset me." That doesn't push the sentence forward. If you trade out the word "like" for the word "because," "I mean, that just hurt me because when you said that, that hurt me." I'm pushing the sentence forward rather than letting it drag. And so it's just these little bitty tweaks that one or two words make a big, big difference. If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.
