When You Are Dealing With A Narcissist, You MUST Understand THIS...
Jefferson Fisher explains how narcissists operate through a "praise or provoke" game and teaches counter-tactics: use flat language like "noted," watch for sudden emotional shifts, and repeat "I remember things differently" without chasing their lies. For any difficult conversation, skip small talk, name it as difficult upfront, then deliver your message directly.
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How do you deal with the narcissist?
Deal with the narcissist.
What I like to say is, number one, understand you're in a game, and it's a game I call praise or provoke. Meaning anytime you're in a narcissist or in a conversation or an argument, you're playing a game, and it's a game that's rigged. Looks like, I don't know if you've ever been, I don't know if they have them here, like a carnival game.
Carnival.
Yeah, okay, like you, you, it looks like it's beatable. You can toss the ring over the bottle or hit the hoop, you know, shoot the, the basketball into the, the rim that's forever away. It looks like it's, it's winnable, like you can beat it, but it's, it's rigged. You can't, you can't beat it. That's the way it's built. You can't change it. That's just how it is. It's the same thing when you're talking or arguing with the narcissist. They can't be reasoned with. You want to fix them.. You want to think to yourself, if only I can just explain it in a way that's going to make them see how what they're doing is hurting me. If they could see that they're damaging us in some way. They can't do it. The game is rigged. And once you realize this is a game that I'm in, this isn't real life. This is just, I can't communicate with this person. I can't reason with them. They don't do empathy. They do anything that affects their reputation. I call it praise or provoke because they get the same feeling either way. If you are not lavishing them with praise, then they'll create some type of drama to provoke you and to create an argument to still get those same type of emotions, to get the sense of control over you. In some sense. So understanding it's a game of praise and provoke, that's not going to get you anywhere. How do you handle that? Two, you want to use phrases that are very neutral. These are phrases like noted, got it, understood, that's interesting, thank you. Things that are flat, things that you can't do anything with. Is it a word like noted? Can't do anything with it. But if I were like, but if I were to say, well, okay, if that's your opinion, They can do anything with that. My opinion? Oh, you're going to talk to me like that? And they'll take it and run with it. And then provoke you. And then provoke you. And then now you're in the game again. Using flat statements, neutral statements, those are keys to not be able to— you can't do anything with them. Nobody can. You can't create a fire out of those. They're not good kindling. They can't do anything. So, and 3, if you need to, you make sure you limit their time. So limit the time that you're in front of them. Why are you with them? Why are you in the room with them? Maybe you're married to one. Maybe you're in a relationship with one. Maybe you are related to one in some sense. So you have to make sure of how long are you going to be in this kind of dynamic. One other little bonus that I like to talk about is, and this is advanced, Paul, this is some advanced thinking. Hit us. So you have to use phrases that make them think about outside the walls of the conversation. So they think they're just talking to you. They don't care about you. They'll say whatever they need to say to control you, but they can't control the masses. And so you have to use words that make them reconsider how they look in that moment. For example, I've used phrases with experts in depositions and trials who absolutely show narcissistic tendencies across the board. I might be arguing with them and they'll never agree with me. But if I were to say, and you think the jury is going to agree with this, they'll go, well, I mean, I mean, maybe. And they start to just totally, like, on a dime, switch, change to be a different person. Now all of a sudden they're more likable. They're saying things that are a little bit more reasonable and more affable. Why? Because they know what they're saying is a very strong stance because they have to kind of water it down. So anytime you can use language like people, others, if you think, like for example, you're in a conversation with, let's say you're a narcissist right now and I'm talking with you and you're trying to pull a point to me. And I'd say, well, if you think others will agree with you, or, and you think that's a good look right now, or, I'm not sure how other people would think about that. Anytime I can make them remember there's a collective, it's not just me and you. I don't know what other people might think of this. This conversation right now, they will change on a dime because the world's their stage.
Yeah.
That's—
Yeah. That is so good.
Yeah.
That is like, that is so good. All right.
It works.
I can see it working.
Yeah.
Because you're right. Because they care about what's happening outside the walls, as you said.
Yeah. And anytime you can break that down. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it time and time again. Anytime I can say, and you think other people are going to agree with your opinion. Yes, they'll change.
And they change. Within having these challenging conversations, gaslighting is a term that I now see all over the place. Right. And it is overused and misused, but it does actually happen in many relationships. So how do you define gaslighting? And then how do we communicate with someone who is gaslighting us?
Gaslighting to me is somebody trying to alter your truth, what you know to be. They're trying to challenge the veracity of statements of what you know, making you feel like you've lost your mind. These are people who will instantly go to, "You're insane. You're crazy. How could you ever believe this? Nobody agrees with you. You know, everybody thinks you're a little crazy, right? You know this. You know, I'm the only one that's actually trying to "Be your friend here in this place," and try and triangulate things. It's very tied to toxic behaviors, to lying. There's a lot of the manipulation. They're all very related. Gaslighting in particular is trying to be controlling, say, "I'm the only one you can trust to tell you the truth in the face of all kinds of other lies. I'm the only one that can tell you the truth." Well, how do you deal with somebody who's a gaslighter? I like to use what I would recommend is you use the phrase, "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Those two phrases are the key. Somebody says something to you, you go, "I remember things differently." So let's put it in terms of bite-sized chunks. Number one, stand your ground, meaning you cannot start to chase whatever lie they're telling you. Liars, gaslighters lie. That's their tactic. They want you to chase wherever they go. It's like a cat in a laser pointer. You ever seen like a laser pointer and the cats chase it everywhere? It's that. They're just holding it. They're wanting you to go from place to place to place. They're the ones in control and they're wanting you to do it. Or they dig a hole and they're expecting you to fill it. So they dig a hole, it's like, this is my lie. And you're going, that's not true. And you start filling it. And then they tell another lie and they start filling it. You just need to let them fall in the hole. There is no sense in trying to justify or try to fix their lie, because that's what they want. The past is their playground. They like to play with it. You ever had a conversation or an argument with somebody who's gaslighting? You know what they like to do is try and twist the narrative. They'll say, no, no, no, if you remember, you said this, I said this, and they'll start to recount every single who said what, who, when, what happened, and they'll do it in a narrative that fits— yeah, if it's them, and you know that's, that's not what's true, that's not what happened. Rather than trying to fix it, put down the shovel, and to use the phrase, "I remember things differently." You repeat it as many times as you need to. "I remember things differently." Again, they can't do anything with that. They can't force you to say anything. They can't create another lie out of that. They can't construct a narrative out of it. There's nothing that they can possibly do. And 3, if they continue to gaslight you and continue to force that, again, it should be telling I guess let's put 3 as observe the emotional discrepancy. Meaning people who, if they don't feel like you're taking in their lie, they get very mad. Why? 'Cause they're very afraid, very exposing, so they're gonna lash out. But see the discrepancy of where the conversation is versus where they're trying to take it. They're starting to yell, they're starting to scream, they're starting to go crazy. That in of itself is all the warning sign you need to just stay, get away. I remember things differently and leave it there. Yes. Yeah.
You know, I'm picking up too, it seems like the commonality with these liars is the emotional discrepancy. Yes. That piece.
Right.
Once they're challenged and you stand your ground, that emotional bar just—
It's gone. It's gone. Yeah. And what it does is when you hear— when we say emotional discrepancy, let's say normal conversation is at a level 2. But all of a sudden I take it up to a number 11 and I'm really loud and I'm really getting after and I speak a whole lot faster. And then my body language, I'm looking mad. I'm trying to look threatening and look dominating. That is a huge jump. If you can go from here to here, that discrepancy is telling you something and it's telling you that they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to. And it can be for good or for bad. So I can have a really big emotional reaction to somebody who said something that's very triggering to me. Me personally, that let's say somebody— let's, let's say I said something and it hit somebody's abandonment issues or issues with their mother or father, or it's the same thing with like your spouse. You know their button. You know the one thing that will send them through the roof. That doesn't mean it's narcissistic or manipulative or gaslighting. It just means that's their emotional trigger. But that discrepancy is very clear typically in the liars and manipulators because they want quickly to get over the wall and control you. They want to control the narrative. They want all sense of you need to buy into their lie or else they know they're losing.
Ah, thank you.
Yeah. How do you deal with the narcissist?
You deal with the narcissist.
What I like to say is, number one, understand you're in a game and it's a game I call praise, or provoke. Meaning anytime you're in a narcissist or in a conversation or an argument, you're playing a game, and it's a game that's rigged. Looks like— I don't know if you've ever been— I don't know if they have them here— like a carnival game. Carnival? Yeah.
Okay.
Like, you— it looks like it's beatable. You can toss the ring over the bottle or hit the hoop, you know, shoot the basketball into the the ram that's forever away. It looks like it's winnable, like you can beat it, but it's rigged. You can't beat it. That's the way it's built. You can't change it. That's just how it is. It's the same thing when you're talking or arguing with a narcissist. They can't be reasoned with. You want to fix them. You want to think to yourself, if only I can just explain it in a way that's going to make them see how what they're doing is hurting me. If they could see that they're damaging us in some way. They can't. Do it. The game is rigged. And once you realize this is a game that I'm in, this isn't real life. This is just, I can't communicate with this person. I can't reason with them. They don't do empathy. They do anything that affects their reputation. I call it praise or provoke because they get the same feeling either way. If you are not lavishing them with praise, And they'll create some type of drama to provoke you and to create an argument to still get those same type of emotions, to get the sense of control over you in some sense. So understanding it's a game of praise and provoke, that's not going to get you anywhere. How do you handle that? Two, you want to use phrases that are very neutral. These are phrases like noted, Got it. Understood. That's interesting. Thank you. Things that are flat, things that you can't do anything with. Is it a word like noted? Can't do anything with it. But if I were like, but if I were to say, well, okay, if that's your opinion, they can do anything with that. My opinion? Oh, you're going to talk to me like that? And they'll take it and run with it and then provoke you and then provoke you. And then now you're in the game again using flat statements, neutral statements. Those are keys to not be able to— you can't do anything with them. Nobody can. You can't create a fire out of those. They're not good kindling. They can't do anything. So, and 3, if you need to, you need to make sure you limit their time. So limit the time that you're in front of them. Why are you with them? Why are you in the room with them? Maybe you're married to one. Maybe you're in a relationship with one. Maybe you are related to one in some sense. So you have to make sure of How long are you going to be in this kind of dynamic? One other little bonus that I like to talk about is, and this is advanced, Paul, this is some advanced thinking. Hit us. So you have to use phrases that make them think about outside the walls of the conversation. So they think they're just talking to you. They don't care about you. They'll say whatever they need to say to control you. But they can't control the masses. And so you have to use words that make them reconsider how they look in that moment. For example, I've used phrases with experts in depositions and trials who absolutely show narcissistic tendencies across the board. I might be arguing with them and they'll never agree with me. But if I were to say, and you think the jury is going to agree with this, They'll go, well, I mean, I mean, maybe. And they start to just totally, like, on a dime, switch, change to be a different person. Now all of a sudden they're more likable. They're saying things that are a little bit more reasonable and more affable. Why? Because they know what they're saying is a very strong stance, because they have to kind of water it down. So anytime you can use language like people, others— if you think, like, for example, you're in a conversation with, uh, let's say you're a narcissist right now. I'm talking with you and you're trying to pull a point to me. And I'd say, well, if you think others will agree with you, and you think that's a good look right now, or I'm not sure how other people would think about that. Anytime I can make them remember there's a collective, it's not just me and you. I don't know what other people might think of this conversation right now. They will change on a dime because the world's their stage. That's—
yeah, that is so good. Yeah, that is like— that is so good.
All right. It works.
Yeah, I can see it working. Yeah, because you're right, because they care about what's happening outside the walls, as you said.
Yeah. And anytime you can break that down. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it time and time again. Anytime I can say— and you think the— you think— and you think other people are going to agree with your opinion. Yes. They'll change.
And they change within having these challenging conversations. Gaslighting. Yeah. Is a term that I now see all over the place. Right. And it is overused and misused, but it does actually happen in many relationships. So how do you define gaslighting? And then how do we communicate with someone who is gaslighting us?
Gaslighting to me is somebody trying to alter your truth, what you know to be. They're trying to challenge the veracity of statements of what you know, making you feel like you've lost your mind. These are people who will instantly go to, "You're insane. You're crazy. How could you ever believe this? Nobody agrees with you. Everybody thinks you're a little crazy, right? You know this. I'm the only one that's actually trying to be your friend here." in this place and try and triangulate things. It's very tied to toxic behaviors, to lying. There's a lot of the manipulation. They're all very related. Gaslighting in particular is trying to be controlling, to say, I'm the only one you can trust to tell you the truth in the face of all kinds of other lies. I'm the only one that can tell you the truth. Well, how do you deal with somebody who's a gaslighter? I like to use what I would recommend is you use the phrase, "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Those two phrases are the key. Somebody says something to you, you go, "I remember things differently." So let's put it in terms of bite-sized chunks. Number one, stand your ground, meaning you cannot start to chase whatever lie they're telling you. Liars, gaslighters lie. That's their tactic. They want you to chase wherever they go. It's like a cat and a laser pointer. You ever seen like a laser pointer and the cats chase it everywhere? It's that. They're just holding it. They're wanting you to go from place to place to place. They're the ones in control and they're wanting you to do it. Or they dig a hole and they're expecting you to fill it. So they dig a hole. It's like, this is my lie. And you're going, that's not true. And you start filling it. Then they tell another lie and they start filling it. You just need to let them fall in the hole. There is no sense in trying to justify or try to fix their lie, because that's what they want. The past is their playground. They like to play with it. You ever had a conversation or an argument with somebody who's gaslighting? You know what they like to do is try and twist the narrative. They'll say, no, no, no, if you remember, you said this, I said this, and they'll start to recount every single who said what, who, when, what happened, and they'll do it in a narrative that fits— yeah, if it's them, and you know that's, that's not what's true, that's not what happened. Rather than trying to fix it, put down the shovel, and to use the phrase, "I remember things differently." You repeat it as many times as you need to. "I remember things differently." Again, they can't do anything with that. They can't force you to say anything. They can't create another lie out of that. They can't construct a narrative out of it. There's nothing that they can possibly do. And 3, if they continue to gaslight you and continue to force that, again, it should be telling I guess let's put 3 as observe the emotional discrepancy, meaning people who, if they don't feel like you're taking in their lie, they get very mad. Why? Because they're very afraid, very exposing, so they're going to lash out. But see the discrepancy of where the conversation is versus where they're trying to take it. They're starting to yell, they're starting to scream, they're starting to go crazy. That in and of itself is all the warning sign you need to just stay, get away. I remember things differently and leave it there. Yes. Yeah.
You know, I'm picking up too, it seems like the commonality with these liars is the emotional discrepancy. Yes. That piece. Once they're challenged and you stand your ground, that emotional bar just—
It's gone. It's gone. Yeah. And what it does is when you hear When we say emotional discrepancy, let's say normal conversation is at a level 2, but all of a sudden I take it up to a number 11 and I'm really loud and I'm really getting after and I speak a whole lot faster. And then my body language, I'm looking mad, I'm trying to look threatening and look dominating. That is a huge jump. If you can go from here to here, that discrepancy is telling you something, and it's telling you that they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to. And it's— and it can be for good or for bad. So I can have a really big emotional reaction to somebody who said something that's very triggering to me, me personally. That let's say somebody— let's, let's say I said something and it hit somebody's abandonment issues or issues with their mother or father, or it's the same thing with like your spouse. You know their button, you know the one thing that will send them through the roof. That doesn't mean it's narcissistic or manipulative or gaslighting. It just means that's their emotional trigger. But that discrepancy is very clear, typically in the liars and manipulators, because they want quickly to get over the wall and control you. They want to control the narrative. They want all sense of you need to buy into their lie or else they know they're losing.
Ah, thank you.
Yeah.
How do we navigate conversations with more authoritative figures in her life.
Can we, let's talk real quick about why they feel the need to ask that kind of thing. So I think it's worth exploring with me and you, right? I mean, why would mothers, I'm not a mother, I'm a father. I know why I might ask something in a way that I don't mean it offensively, but I am curious and I'm curious of Why do you think parents want to ask that kind of thing? Is it disapproving? Do they feel like they disapprove of the kids?
No.
No. You think that they wish that they were more like them?
No. I suppose a component of it could be fear. The reason why I go back to fear is because I think, and this is another challenge that a lot of the audience has, and that is, You should be married already. Right. You're 35. What are you doing? You should already have a child by now. You should be married. And I think a lot of it could be their fear inappropriately assigned. But I think that it could be— I think that they could be reacting out of fear.
Right. I think you're right. I think a lot of it has to do like with most things, has to do with the fear, whether they want their child to have a partner. They don't want them to be alone should they not be there. Now, there's also some other mother-in-laws who just need that control. Because their son is the biggest thing to them and they need to make sure that they are the ones controlling and thinking what the wife should do and disproving if it's not anything like what they would do, they need to voice that. Yes. Common, common across, I think, all cultures all over the world. Now, how do you handle that kind of thing? One, you need to see it for what it is. That's typically a show of personal selfish concern from them. They're wanting something. Either needs to, the life needs to look more like they want it to be. So one, recognize where it's coming from rather than taking it super personally. Recognize where it's coming from. I would encourage you to ask questions that are going to open them up a little bit more. Questions like, what makes you ask? Something as easy as that is often to get them— why? Because we want to find more information. Sure. We want to find, is it really the fear? Rather than getting so worked up and personal enough and getting defensive, just ask one more question like we talked about that's going to get you a little bit more information of Where is the question coming from? Is it truly curiosity or is it because their friend Janice asked them 2 weeks ago and they didn't know what to say, so they need to, you know, what do I know? So number 1, understand the context. 2, if you can, use words of appreciation but dismissal. This is what I—
Appreciation but dismissal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean dismissive in the positive Context, not in like a get out of here. Okay. So that would sound like, I appreciate the concern. We're happy. I appreciate the thought. We're good. Something as simple as that. You're not having to explain. Now, there are people who would probably rather hear me say the hard stuff of, excuse me, that's none of your business. In personal context with family and friends, That's not the best move. With strangers, sure. It's what makes you ask? Why should you know? Now that's a defensive statement, but if it's a stranger, go for it.
Okay, I see it. I see it. It's a nice dismiss.
It's a nice dismiss.
It's a soft dismiss.
It is, yes. Okay.
So then rounding out this difficult conversation, right? This category is what happens if we need a hard dismiss? If we are letting someone go out of our life?
Oh, breaking up.
Oh, how do we approach and handle that conversation?
Those are hard. Those are probably some of the hardest conversations you'll ever have with people who you need to, you know, that you need to let go of. People that, they're wonderful people. You just know, you know, they're not They're not your person. They're not your people. Or they have a great job and they're good, but you know they're not going to be with you. How do you have those kind of conversations? Well, you can use a frame like we talked about, the 1-2-3. What I would encourage is you need to eliminate the small talk. If you need to have a really difficult conversation with somebody, you need to end the relationship. Don't begin with the small talk. That begins— it typically sounds like, "So look, Paul, I've really enjoyed getting to know you these last few hours and everything, but—" Right there. That's where it is. Or a lot of times we like to use this other phrase. We'll say, "Paul, it's been great. I've really enjoyed getting to know you." So listen, that right there is— we know it's all going downhill. Yes. And the other person is just in immense anxiety because they don't know what's happening. They're going to assume you're automatically— you hate them. Everything's going worse. That's why it's not great to start with the positive and then end with the negative. Not going to go well. Instead, this is what I want you to do. Number 1, eliminate the small talk. 2, get straight to the point. You're gonna label the conversation. Label it before you even get started. You're gonna say something to the tune of, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. You know, let's see how easy that is. This is gonna be a difficult conversation. Rather than making them assume or guess or figure out it's difficult, I'm telling you at the outset, this is gonna be a difficult conversation, or this is gonna be hard to talk about. You're not gonna like what I have to say. This is probably gonna come as a surprise to you. I'm not going to enjoy this conversation. Anything like that is going to allow— it's going to label exactly what's coming up and then allow them to kind of catch themselves, ready themselves, and then deliver what you need to deliver. Then you need to cut it. So 3 would be in the relationship, right? Then don't wait to the very end. I promise you, the quicker you pull off the Band-Aid, the more relief it's going to be and the more connection and conversation you're actually going to have. You see how it's not nearly as kind when you're indirect.
You know what's so fascinating to me about this is this once again is more advice that really flies in the face of conventional thought. Because I think that the conventional way of dismissing someone, letting someone go, et cetera, is the crap sandwich. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So the bread on top, say something positive and kind and nice. And then the meat, hit them with the, okay, this is not going to work. And then hit them with another piece of bread. Yeah, exactly. And then it's a sandwich. And what you are suggesting that we do is much more effective. It's kinder to the individual. And I think that we, as the person who's delivering it, we can deliver it with more integrity.
Yeah, it's more genuine. It's more honest. It's even worse when you leave a conversation like that and you feel worse about it. Like you feel bad and the other person now doesn't really trust you because you started with all these wonderful things and then you ended it with a curveball for them rather than being truthful at the outset. And so the quicker you can, let's say even if you need to end a relationship, rather than, as soon as you say this phrase, look, you've been great. You're already talking in past tense. That's true. You know, look, I've really enjoyed getting to know you. You've been so great. And you know, it's not you, it's me. Of course it is. Of course it's me. I mean, it's that kind of language does nothing but make them despise you later because it doesn't match their experience. You're giving them fake, empty words. This compliment sandwich is hard to chew. It's impossible to swallow. And truly it's an insult sandwich, I guess, because if you, I mean, it's the insult's in the middle. You know what I mean? If it's a ham sandwich, you call it a ham sandwich. If the insult's in the middle, it should really be an insult sandwich. But it's this idea that if I slow roll these soft compliments,, and then at the end I have to, so look, it's not really my fault and there's things that we're just not really compatible and I just really feel like that kind of language is terrible. You can phrase it however you want to, but the point is eliminate the small talk, label the conversation, give them a little breath, and then tell them what's going on. That's far, far better and far kinder in your communication. It is.
Thank you. Yeah.
Thank you for that. If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there.
