Paani with People | Ep 3 | Partnerships: Sahreen on marriage, migration, and ambition

How's your Saturday morning?

Yeah, not too bad. Uh, so I'm staying in a friend's place, uh, who's gone to Turkey before I finally move into my, uh, room in London. Um, yeah, just made chai for myself. It's going well.

Yeah, you're working with the UK civil service now?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And what are you doing?

So I, um, work as a— now I'm going to start working as a strategy and a policy advisor, which means I don't have much information because they don't tend to give much information before you start. But, uh, for my previous role, what I used to do is— so UK has a railway technology which is very much, pretty much similar in India, which is when the trains stop You use that red flag, if you remember, for trains to be stopped. And then they replaced that with the red, green, and the yellow light. But UK was actually trying to push a case for digital signaling, which Japan and a lot of countries in Europe uses. So they use a lot of evidence to sort of, you know, pitch to the government and say that— different governments, you know, across UK— to say that this is more effective, more efficient. So that's what I did previously across the country. And now I am going to work on a very specific, uh, part in the country— York, Manchester, and one more place in the north— where I'm going to push the case for this. But this time I'm going to push a business case, as in I'm going to look into the finances and create a strategy around how it's going to be more efficient this time.

Okay, sounds very interesting. Are you excited about it?

I am a little excited, but I know it can also get like boring for me after a while. So I really hope like we don't reach there.

Well, hopefully not. Or at least you keep finding new things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, I'll give you a little background even though I've told you some bits. But essentially the podcast is called Pani with People, um, and it's a play on other chat shows which host coffee with other people. Uh, so the idea— I think pani is my favorite drink. I just love the fact that It doesn't have a taste, it doesn't have any color, it's just so simple, which is what I like about people as well, is that they don't have to be celebrities for you to want to have a conversation with them or want to hear their stories. And that is what I'm trying to do with this, is just hear stories of different people, people who are not necessarily celebrities, but people who other people think are very interesting, which is where the recommendations come. So I talked to Kanika. I don't know if you know Kanika.

I do.

Yeah, Tanika was the first person that I talked to, then she referred me to Manzoor, and Manzoor obviously referred me to you.

And, uh, I'm sorry that I kept you on hold for so long.

No, no, that's okay.

I'm trying to like fix my situation here.

I imagine it takes time. That's okay, don't worry about it. So yes, and there's no structure to it, it's just a half an hour, 45 minutes conversation that we'll have, getting to know more about you who you are, what you like, just anything that you'd like to share. So yeah, that is where we are. Why don't we begin with Manzoor? Yeah, what's, what's that like being married?

Yeah, um, so while growing up, um, of course, like, I had the traditional idea of a marriage. You know, you get married to get more stability into your life in terms of, you know, like, you're living with your parents and then you move out and then you go to this new place. where you become your whole self, you know, where, uh, the new identity, which is your actual identity, kind of starts for you. And that was like the perception that I was brought up with. So I was always looking forward to, you know, uh, getting married to somebody, of course, like I adored and loved, which did not definitely mean that, you know, um, I would be in a love marriage. Um, but then, um, Um, so Manzar was a friend. Manzar was a very good friend. We met through Quora. Um, we were— um, he had answered a question on Quora which became really viral, and then, you know, there were articles in that question. And I thought, okay, who's this guy? His first name is Syed, so he looks like he's from the community. And I also had my own notions about the community, so I was like, okay, let me just break those myths and like reach out to him. And That's when I reached out and, um, we got talking. But I always in my head knew that, you know, he was not somebody that I could marry. One, he was younger, and two, um, he was not from my community. So we tend to marry within our community, and that was the last thing I wanted to do to my parents. Uh, but we became very good friends for 2, 3 years, and, uh, when my parents started to look for a match for me, um, I was getting really disappointed from all the matches that were coming through. Um, in my head I knew that I had certain ideals. I had, I had a critical bent of mind, even though I can't put a finger, uh, saying that, you know, I was a feminist, or this is what I, what my ideology was, and this is what I believed in. This is patriarchy. This is not what I want to adhere to. But in my head, because of the critical bent of mind, I did repel a lot of those things. And, um, I actually asked Manzar out. I was like, do you think that we can get— no, okay, what actually happened was my dad was able to find a Kashmiri match for me in Mumbai, and Manzar was in Mumbai at that point of time. Um, so I asked Manzar if he could have a look at that guy and if he could see like his background and all of that. And he very, you know, like in a very joking, like a jokey way, he said that why don't we get married? And he was really young, he was like 23, 24 at that point of time. And I was like, oh, I think I was 27, 26, 27. Like, I'm 3 years elder to him.

Right.

So, um, I, I was like, oh, he's so funny. Like, why would he even say that? We're not a match. But then I actually, you know, uh, when I went back, I reflected and I was like, I wouldn't be able to find a better partner than him because, you know, like, he has all these good qualities as a friend which qualify for a great husband, but it's just that I'm not able to see that. So, um, I approached him. I was like, listen, I gave it a thought, uh, do you want to go ahead with that? And he was like, no, I was just kidding, you know. And then all of that, uh, like, that kept on, like, um, ongoing for a while. And he was at TISS and he was getting a lot of attention at TISS. He was also, like, studying. So of course, like, he didn't have me, um, in his mind. But then I was like, listen, okay, let's do one thing because this has become so awkward. Let's just, uh, cut off and I'll do my own thing, you'll do your own thing. And that's when he realized that he didn't want to cut off. And, um, sorry, I digressed a lot, but I was saying like, yeah, being married to Manzoor, that's when I realized that, you know, I had an identity different from what I had assumed for myself. Um, I couldn't figure out my life in a much better way, the way I wanted it to be, not the way my parents or my grandparents or the society wanted it to be. So even though like it sounds really weird and ridiculous for me to say that he allowed me to be in a space, uh, where I could have uh, where I, you know, where I found myself. But that's what he actually did, you know. My father always believed that he passed on my baton from one man to the other man. And I would say Manzar made use, use of that. He was like, okay, the baton is with me now, you take it and you, um, do whatever. Um, so yeah, I would say like it's been wonderful, um, being married to him. And it's even to this, this date, I think it's going to be 5 or 6 years this year. Even to this date, I feel like, uh, there's no sort of a contract between us. Like, we're not married in a very traditional manner. Um, we allow each other to be, and we are a result of that relationship. Our choices are a result of that relationship.

That sounds beautiful. What's it like to, to meet people for marriage? Like, I'm, I'm at that stage of life where my parents are constantly now talking about getting married at some point, and I've told them wait another 2 years, but I know that it's coming at some point. And if it doesn't happen organically for me, at some point I'd have to think of meeting people. Uh, how does that feel? What, what's that experience like?

So as if— I can't speak for men, but as a woman, it was a really terrible experience for me. Uh, so it was also a time when I was preparing for a bank exam. And I had decided that, you know, that's what I want to do ahead. So I was also like too much into studies, and my father was also like getting these matches. And then they would have ridiculous demands. For example, there was this matchmaker who would— who came to our house and he was like, uh, can you walk for me?

Really?

Yeah, he was like, can you walk for me? And I think I was 26 back then. I walked, uh, and I didn't think like it was a beautiful walk or something because it was a normal walk. And he said, Oh, she, uh, is perfectly capable of walking. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, he was seeing like whether I had any sort of physical disadvantages, disabilities. He was trying to see that. And then he also said, she's very young for marriage, because in Kashmir people tend to marry late. So he also said, he's— she's very, uh, young for marriage. And then he made comments like that. And also I've had instances, you know, where the guy's family said, we're coming over to yours to have a look at, you know, to put the guy and the girl to meet each other, or the families to meet, and they never showed up. Like, imagine me being all decked up and they didn't show up, and we're calling the matchmaker and he's not answering for hours altogether. And even though I was not attached to them any— in any sort of way, but it was bad for my self-esteem. I was like, did I do anything wrong that they're not showing up? So, um, that also happened. And then I also— I think I became so desperate in the process because, like, Get rejections after rejections. You reject one after the other. I think there was this guy who was completely not a match. I mean, my parents could see that they're not. He's not a match for me. But I was like, "मैं कर लूँगी।" I will change myself. And my parents are like, who are not very progressive by the way. But my parents are like, "This is a lifetime decision. You shouldn't be saying that." And at that point, I actually questioned myself. I was like. why would I let anyone walk over me? So I think I should take a break from this and then like start thinking about if I really want to get married in this process. But it was terrible for me because you are expecting— oh, I forgot to tell you, there was this matchmaker who actually came to my place and he was like, we have 8 to 9 criteria based on which we suggest, um, matches. And then he started— oh my God, he gave me those 8 criteria. It was one, how big is your house? 2, how far is it from the main road? 3, how much is— how much bigger is your path, like the path which leads from your door to the gate? How many, uh, how big is your garden? What does your dad do? What does your mom do? Are they into government employment or are they private employees? What do you do? It's all these ridiculous, you know, like, um, demands which would make you feel, um, like bad about yourself because you're also assessing yourself on those terms then. And then I also had this match. Basically, matchmaker came with his diary and he was like, you know, you're not, you're not, um, you're too choosy. Like, you're not able to like find yourself a good match. Here, take my diary and see what you want. And then I go to the diary and one of the rishthas actually says, um, this is the guy, this is what he does, this, these are the relatives, all of that, which is fine. It is a standard way of matchmaking. But at the bottom it says One canal land in this area, one ATM in this area, one hotel in this area. I was like, oh my God, do I also need to like have all of that? Because I don't. So yeah, it was a very interesting time but also a ridiculous time, honestly. Like, I wouldn't, um, wish this on anyone, any woman specifically.

Wow.

So I, I don't have a rosy picture of it.

I wish I would wish organic beginnings for you.

It sounds so weird because I've I've always been like in the in the last few years. In fact, we the kind of community that we exist in, we've been surrounded by such progressive people that these thoughts seem very distant. ऐसे लगते हैं ये तो गांव में होता होगा। But then these things happen so close to you and they're ridiculous the way they do and that you have to subscribe to it. And there's no choice that you get, especially for women, that you barely get a choice to make. But I'm glad it worked out for you well. How did your parents react to your choice with Manzoor?

So surprisingly, my parents have always been pushy on a lot of my choices, but with Manzoor, initially my dad was of course like, no, we can't. And I don't want to be the first one. Like, I gave you all this education, I, you know, gave you all this freedom, not for people to come back at me and say that this is a result of your decisions. Uh, so initially he did say no. Um, But then I asked him twice. I was like, listen, he's a very good guy. But also the problem here was that Manzar was still a student. So I knew he would get a job because he was in his final year then. But then also like to pitch something to your parents which is not fully established as of now was a difficult choice for me. But and then my dad said no. And then Manzar's parents also spoke to my dad, and he also kind of kept that on hold. Um, which was like, I would say, which was not very pleasing for Manzar as well because his parents had spoken now and he needed an answer, even if it was a no. And then Manzar decided to visit my parents, um, all by himself. Um, so he was, like I said, he was at TISS. I had just started working. Both of us did not have the money to, uh, get him to Kashmir in a way which was comfortable for him. So I remember he took a Government bus, like a public bus from ISBT Kashmir. Sorry, ISBT in Delhi. And then that bus took like 24 to 28 hours to reach Kashmir. This is the most horrible bus I have ever known in my life, but I've traveled in that quite a few times. And then he met my dad, and my dad took him. It was Ramzan, so my dad took him home, and then he got introduced to my grandmom and my mom. So my grandmom doesn't understand. Didn't back then didn't understand Urdu or Hindi, but then she just kept smiling at Man. And I don't know what that what's meeting spint in her because I never got a chance to speak to her. She died immediately after. But then she just kept smiling at him, and she like prepared good food for him. Even though this wasn't a yes, but when my dad saw his mom being happy, he was like, "Okay, the decision is made, so we'll say yes." And then my parents actually traveled to his. like travel all the way to Ambikapur, which is really far. It took them a lot of time to reach there. And my mom, um, I don't know about my dad, but my mom had never traveled in a train because we don't get train, we don't have trains in Kashmir. So that was my first— that was my— that was the first time for my mother and my brother who went to Ambikapur. And my mother, I remember my mother calling me because Ambikapur is also like a very small city, um, so, um, and it also passes through a lot of villages, um. So my mom was like, I don't think I can get you married here because it's a village. Um, I was like, but you don't have to like do anything with that. You just meet Manza's parents. She was like, there's no way because it's deserted for like the there are stretches of lands that are just deserted. I don't see you here. And I know my mom can be quite stubborn at times, but I don't know what changed honestly. Like she came back and she told my dad, I think she's happy in this and I think we should just say yes. And they said yes. All of this background that I'm giving you is something that I realized much after. They told me much after the marriage. They told me that they didn't want me to go to Ambikapur, but, um, but I think they agreed on time and, you know, that's what, uh, yeah. So my dad, even though like there was some sort of a pushback, but he, I think he gave in.

That's nice. I'm glad it worked out. So technically you didn't go to Ambikapur, did you?

So, um, actually what happened, Manzar and I had a nikah. So how it happens was How it happens usually is you have the mehendi, the nikah, the walima next day. The walima is thrown by the guy's side, but because we had—

is walima like a reception?

Yes, it's like a reception. So, um, but because, because of the distance and also because Manzar was just starting out, uh, with his work, so we decided we'll have the nikah and then after 2 years we'll have the reception. Even though nikah means that you're legally married But because of the cultural practices, my dad was like, "No, till you have the reception, you can't meet Manzar," which is bullshit, by the way, because you can legally. You're married Islamically also, like Islamically legally you're married. So, but anyway, so we were waiting for that reception to happen, but Oxford came through for me. So I came to Oxford with the expectation that you know I'll go back and then have the reception. But Manzar also got through Oxford the next year, so he had to come to Oxford. And that would mean naturally that we meet. So, um, I think our parents gave in this process and they were like, listen, we are going to announce to the world that the reception is done, uh, even though it wasn't done. And then they sent sweets to everybody and then they were like, the reception is done. So Manzar is still doing his, um, master's in Oxford is when I decide that I need to meet his parents because it's been really long. I haven't like officially, um, so I go back to India, I meet my parents, and then I decide to go to Ambikapur all by And so I take a train, do all that jazz, uh, reach Ambikapur, stay there for 10 days. It was a wonderful, uh, period for me. It was really hot, but it was nice.

It was also—

I would say it was nice because it was also surprising for a lot of people to see that, you know, the bahu has come without the groom.

All by herself.

So my mother-in-law threw a reception, um, uh, reception party. Just so that, you know, everybody knows that this is the new daughter-in-law.

Right.

Um, so since then I've been to Ambikapur thrice for very small spells, like 10, 10 days each. Um, but I think like I am also adapting to new changes and they are also adapting to new changes. For them to know that, you know, the daughter-in-law hasn't moved— like, I don't have a single clo— like, there's no clothing for me in Ambikapur. Of course I have a room And all of that to myself. But because I travel so much between so many places, that means that you know I don't have a permanent wardrobe there.

Yeah.

I mean they have allotted me a lot wardrobe, like my clothing and nothing is there. It's empty. So for them to also accommodate to that change, I would say like my mother-in-law is really brave and like changing with times. But I can't say for other relatives, and I've never heard anything. But I would say like it's a lot of change for everybody.

I'm sure.

Yeah.

Wow, what a story. There's so much happening in it.

Yeah.

Wow. Why don't you tell me a little about your community? Did you say— so Syed is Manzar's community. Is that the same as yours?

No, no. So, um, I am Raja, and Raja basically— I mean, I don't have like deeper knowledge into this, but we are like Hindu converts. We were Rajputs in Kashmir. But when I refer to my community, I usually say like Kashmiri community.

Okay, we'll come to Oxford.

Yeah.

That's a huge step coming from Kashmir to a different country altogether. Firstly, getting into Oxford is a huge thing. Manzar also said you— Manzar also told me that you inspired him to come to Oxford itself. So to do that yourself and then inspire other people to do it, and then with the kind of work that you're also doing with Project Edu Access and Bridge, is this very inspiring? How did that thought emerge in your mind to get to Oxford?

Yeah, so like I said, you know, like growing up I knew that I had a critical bent of mind, but I was not able to put a finger to that. I knew, but it was primarily because my education did not have the— the education institutes did not have the rigor, uh, to pass me on that knowledge. I, uh, did most of my undergrad was in science.

It was economics, mathematics, statistics.

So while it was a good course, but that would get that is capable of getting you a lot of money, but it was not catering to my intellect. So I also got a job in between that job. I was also like, "Yar, काम तो हो रहा है, पैसा तो मिल रहा है, but it's not like it's not stimulating enough." And also like I had Kashmir in the back of back of my mind. So much was happening there. I was not able to like understand हो क्या रहा है वो the nuances of any ideology something that I was not. Very well versed with, and I've always wanted to do something better. And Manzar had just come out of TIS, and I had seen the kind of change it had made in him. So I could see that education institutes were capable of making that change, and I had absolutely no idea Oxford में apply कैसे करते हैं, क्या करते हैं. I had no plans. But suddenly I go onto Facebook one day, and I see that one of my seniors—no, one of my classmates from school. Was a Chevening scholar in UCL, and I was like, "What the hell is that? Like, how did she get there?" Because I knew absolutely no one who was doing foreign education. No one. And I was like, "ये तो अपनी friend है ना? Like, इसका कैसे हुआ?" Like you know, you you like start questioning. You're like, if she could get through, then you also stand a chance to get through, right? So I started doing my research and I was like, um, मंजर apply करते हैं साल UK में I I knew nothing about scholarships. I was like just apply करते हैं and let's see. And then I wrote applications to universities like University of Sheffield, University of Glasgow because I was like Oxford obviously like Oxford तो dictionary ही देखी थी ना तो obviously like I didn't know anything about. So um so started applying and all of that.

And I started getting through.

I applied to IDS, Sussex, all of that. I started getting through and I was like, really, does my application have so much that they can accept me? Does it not? Do I not have to be like a Newton or an Einstein to get through? So, um, and then I had also applied to Oxford. I had applied to Chevening. I knew of no other scholarship. Chevening because my, uh, classmate went.

Right.

And I knew of no other scholarships. So I remember I came back from office and it's just like People have just started talking about COVID There's something like COVID. I've come back from office and I have a really bad headache, and I've decided to go back to Kashmir because COVID होने वाला है. And then I remember at 7 PM, I'm getting an email saying that oh you've gotten into Oxford and we're also considering you for a partial scholarship. I was like this is unbelievable because and in actually before this University of Sheffield rejected me. I was like, ये तो rejection आ गई है तो clearly like सामने से it's a hit and a miss कहीं-कहीं होता है कहीं-कहीं नहीं होता है। And then when Oxford I got through Oxford I was like this is too much and I kid you not I remember like Manzar entered through the door is when I have the phone in my hand and I'm like मेरा हो गया मेरा हो गया and he's also like कैसे हुआ कैसे हुआ and then I vomit I'm not I vomit I'm like because I also have a headache I don't know whether that was gas or that was this I vomit. I was like, "ये कैसे हुआ? कैसे हुआ?" Anyway, so that happened, and then my parents were also in disbelief. Everybody is in disbelief. My friends are in disbelief because, like I said, I was very like I was quite away from the world. You know which goes which goes to foreign university. I was like very distant from them, and then the scholarship quest began. Chevening. I got the first acceptance, and then I went to interview, had the interview. In Kashmir, then I got waitlisted. So for that entire month, I was on waitlist, and I was like, कहाँ से पैसे लाओ? My university was giving me half scholarship. But the thing is, I don't even know if you know Blavatnik where I studied this. Back then, the tuition fee itself was forty-five thousand pounds.

Wow! That's a lot. That's a lot.

So for them to you know give me a half scholarship on that, and then also like for the other half and the living stipend, it was. Quite a lot, and that's when I decided to crowdfund. I was like, क्योंकि मुझे पता ही नहीं थी कि मतलब I could have applied next year. Next year होगा COVID से बचेंगे नहीं बचेंगे? So there were like so many risks that I had to take, and I was like, no, I'm going to do it this year. And my parents were also like, yeah, yeah, Oxford, Oxford do this year. And that's when I Manzar and I decided we're going to crowdfund at that point of time because I told you like Manzar was also like initially beginning in his career, and then I was also like. 2-3 years I had worked. We had absolutely zero contacts to raise that amount. It was a big amount.

No, sure. Yeah, yeah.

But, um, within 18 days, like, we set up a Milaap campaign and, you know, we went all out. You know, I also had a graphic designer, like, somebody volunteered. She was like, I'm gonna create posts for you. I was like, please do. And then we had a proper strategy, and then that strategy actually, like, worked. And then I had all the money, uh, with me. But I also used that campaign. Um, I went back to my university and I used that campaign. I was like, listen, I've been able to like, uh, like raise so much amount, would you be able to like match any of it?

And then they were like, okay, we'll give you 25% more. So I got more 25%.

And then people came from different directions, people we didn't know, people I've never heard of, I had never heard of. Everybody was contributing to my campaign, and there were certain people. Honestly, I remember this woman. She she was borderline irritating because she would call me ten times a day. Were you able to raise anything? I was like, if she doesn't want to help me, why is she like calling me so many times? She's like, I spoke to some of the aunties in the community, and each of them have gave me some amount. I have six thousand rupees for you. And I at that point I was like, six thousand is not going to help me. The number of calls you're going to you're making. I certainly deserve more, but I was really frustrated at this point of time. But suddenly, you know, like when I finish my crowdfunding and I get all the amount, she calls me again and she's like, listen, do you mind coming to my house? And I'm again like very skeptical. I was like, she's calling me all the way to Delhi and I was living in Noida. And then she sends me a car, I go to her house, and she hands me a cheque of ₹5 lakh. Oh wow. And she tells me, I was waiting all this while to see whether you'll be able to raise that amount. Um, but this amount is not for your tuition, it's not for your living. This is over and above that. You also need to like explore London, see London, make sure you use it judiciously, like have fun. I was like, okay, wow. So people came in from different directions and that's how Oxford happened. Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's inspiring. Why do you think people give to crowdfunding campaigns, especially for education?

So I think For example, a person like me who's relatable, an average Kashmiri, or I would like— I would also say, or Indian, who studied from average schools. I wouldn't like call my school an average, that would be like misusing my privilege. But of course, like, a lot of people go to convent in, um, Srinagar, but also a lot of them do not like end up in foreign universities. So I was relatable, next-door girl, you know. And if that next-door girl is telling you I got into Oxford you know, like with my credentials I got into Oxford, then probably like you all have the talent to get into Oxford, but all I need here is the tuition fee. And, uh, I think that's what helped. I remember like I had— I was added on so many groups, people was just passing on my—

Yeah.

Uh, there were so many tweets. Oh my God, there were so many media outlets that reached my parents' house. They wanted to interview them.

I mean, you'll also be able to find—

if you, if you Google me, you'll be able to find my parents' interviews.

They look so innocent.

and so naive in that. But, um, yeah, I think it just multiplied because, uh, people probably realized that, you know, they also had the, um, they also had it in them. I mean, if I had it in me to reach somewhere like this, they also, um, would be able to do it. And also they were trying to like just back me and support me. And also like, I find it really, really hopeful. Of course, back then it was really frustrating for me, but now that I reflect, because this was literally in the middle of a pandemic. This is when the first wave had started. People were losing out on jobs and businesses. There was a lot of, um, um, I would say like things were not clear for people, but still they were like contributing. It became— and also like everybody was like sitting at homes, they had the Twitter, and everybody was like, you know what, let's take this girl to Oxford, let's take this, take her to Oxford. And then I remember the same year I also had another Kashmiri girl who started crowdfunding after me, so It's crowdfunding is starting a crowdfunding is not an issue. What is an issue is how the society will perceive you. For me, that was not an issue. I was like, Oxford जाऊँगी कुछ सीखूँगी society तो society है. But for her, because of my parents, my parents were like, I don't want you to go like that public because of course people will say इनके पास क्या अपने पैसे नहीं हैं मकान क्यों नहीं बेचा ये सारी चीजें क्यों नहीं की and all of that. But I was like, don't worry about it. It's me that's raising funds. It's not you. it's okay, just detach yourself from that idea. And then the other girl also started, um, crowdfunding. Uh, so she's also in UK right now, she's also working in UK civil services. And then it just— crowdfunding just became viral after that. I've had so many people raise funds after that. Um, so it was, I think, like it sort of set a chain reaction, uh, which is like very, very nice.

That sounds very positive. Uh, my opinions about crowdfunding are very bittersweet, um, because I also came to study a master's in a foreign university. I come from social privilege, like I'm an upper caste Brahmin man, um, even though we didn't have as much money. But, and that's my perception, that if I start a crowdfunding campaign, it'd be very difficult for me to raise the funds. Yeah, unless I, I, I have no Nothing holding me back in the society except for some bits of money, which is why I feel the sense of jealousy. Crowdfunding जहाँ मुझे लगता है कि मुझे इतना loan लेके आना पड़ा and I have to pay back that money, जहाँ मेरे पास कोई option नहीं था, we didn't have any property so we had to take an unsecured loan which also comes with a higher percentage. तो मुझे कभी-कभी unfair लगता है कभी-कभी लगता है कि it's it's the beauty of humanity to help each other फिर मुझे लगता है कि मुझे कोई क्यों नहीं help करता तो it's a little disorienting for me to just imagine कि क्या-क्या are things around crowdfunding and I have found myself saying quite a few times कि why don't these people take a loan sorry if if that Is is an offending question, but that's what I said. And I don't know enough to have an answer to it. कि लोन लेने में क्या प्रॉब्लम है?

बाकी लोग भी लेते हैं। So I would say that taking a loan is also a social privilege, right? You have some sort of assurance that you'll be able to pay that loan. Now I'm not justifying it by saying कि मेरे पास तो कॉलैटरल नहीं था, मैं लोन नहीं ले सकती। I could have taken a loan. But then you should also see, like, as a woman, who would pay off that loan? Like, my dad— at that point of time, my dad would have to put collateral for me. And he, and he in very clear terms said, I am not giving my house for this. Very clear. And I knew he would say that because I know him as a person. Um, and he also said, now you're married, you're, you're in-laws' deal, like, responsibility. So, and because I'm a feminist, I believe I'm nobody's responsibility. I'm just responsible for myself. So if the community can come together and support me, well and good. I don't have the collateral. My dad doesn't want to give me collateral. I could have forced him into getting me that collateral, but that would have been bad for my ego and my self-esteem as a feminist.

Yeah.

So I would say it's not just that, it's also if My community wants to see more women like me in spaces like these. These spaces are usually occupied by people with a lot of socio-economic privilege, right? So if people want to see like women like me come into these spaces, it's very important that you support such women, right? And I also don't say it like नहीं ठीक है crowdfunding ठीक है। I also come with a lot of mixed feelings. It's not like I say नहीं crowdfunding तो best है। But I also say that you know the fact that this education has been made inaccessible is where we have to start. We have to like nip that in the bud. Why is it inaccessible? And why is it only inaccessible to a certain section of the population? If I was a— if I was a man, of course my father was going to like spend all, all his money on me, and then it would be like morally corrupt for me to, you know, um, start a crowdfunding. I don't say don't try, go for it, but then you might have to like figure out your own, um, whether they align with your moral values or not. You'll have to like do that. For me, of course, like, um, not everything was black and white. I knew that, um, you know, I was also able to raise a lot of money because of my identity as a Kashmiri, uh, but also do I do enough to serve that identity? Is also a question, right? People put in money in me because of different expectations that they had from me. For example, a lot of Indians put in money in my campaign saying that oh she's going to develop Kashmir. Now I know that you know their idea of development is very very different from a Kashmiri's idea of development. We don't want their idea of development. A lot of Kashmiris supported me saying that our Kashmiri girls need to like. you know, like have better intellectual capabilities to represent us. Am I doing that? I'm not doing that yet. Um, so I stand at— I know I stand at crossroads of many different, like, different ideas that had gone into, like, crowdfunding. But the only thing that I, um, which, like, clears my conscience, like, where I am, like, clearing my conscience, is that I know that if I was able to do it, like, there are thousands of girls in Kashmir who are like, Sehrin, we also want to go to Oxford. And one of them is actually like— we spoke of Project Edu Access— one of them is actually coming this year who had never thought of getting into Oxford, studied in average colleges and universities in India. She got a scholarship through Oxford this year, and that is also because of the, um, use of privilege that we made this year. And I'll tell you— sorry, um, I just jumped like too many things to reach there. Um, so what, what we basically did through Project Edu Access was that we also advocated for widening access and participation for certain communities, um, and people with marginalization at universities across UK. For example, we made University of Oxford understand that you have scholarships for India, but that's not enough. You also need to see who within India needs those scholarships. For example, if you're giving this scholarship every year to a man who is Brahmin— sorry, no attacks here— but you also need to see, um, whether there's anybody from a DBA community more deserving, or a woman, like other, um, indicators that you have. You also need to like see context-based indicators. You also need to see where in India are they coming from, what is the region. Um, so as a result of that, uh, They've started like— there is this India Center here. You will speak to Neeraj next and he'll also tell you. Um, they have started like having scholarships now only for certain identities, based on those identities. So which I would say is a result of us using our privilege. We got here, we knew the struggles that we had to do. We don't want those struggles— we don't want more people to face those struggles. For example, if there was a scholarship for a Kashmiri, it would have really helped Kashmiri women. It would have really helped me. You know, I wouldn't have to like go door to door asking for crowdfunding. Um, so yeah, I would say like that. Um, where did we start on crowdfunding? Yeah, I would say like, you know, it's also what you do with your privilege, but I wouldn't say all no-no to crowdfunding. I would say like definitely, uh, see like where it aligns with your moral values. But I know one more thing, Ambikesh, and I wanted to tell you. So, um, in my year and after my year I knew 2 more people who had crowdfunding— no, actually 3, including the Kashmiri— and all of us had a similar, um, had made a similar conclusion by the end of it. One, of course, people were very generous, and of course they supported us. 2, of guilt. What do we do with this now? Like, we've taken so much money from the community. Are we doing enough? Of course we are advocating for better spaces and widening access. We're doing that, but is that enough? Is that what— like, is that the most we can make out of our privilege? And, uh, the third was— what was the third one? Uh, there was guilt, there was acceptance of the fact that everybody— um, yeah, and everybody— oh my God, and everybody after that crowdfunding wanted just— they just wanted to hide. They didn't want to be in public. Like, I went into hiding. I deleted my Instagram, I deleted everything because I was like, all eyes are on me. तो there's also great आप क्या करती हैं देखते हैं there and also like I had people who messaged me saying that अभी तक तुम इंडिया वापस नहीं गई यहीं हो तुमने तो कहा था इंडिया वापस जाओगी so it is very very complex I would say it's not as easy and straight jacketed as someone who crowdsources money it's also very difficult for you like every every day of your life you're like क्या करें? I remember this another girl who crowdfunded money. She then started. She put in a huge chunk of money in bridge as a way to like pay back for a scholarship. That was her way of dealing with dealing with the guilt. She's doing her PhD right now in a different country. But I would say like it comes with a lot of guilt then. What do you? And similarly, like people who make applications to universities, who write applications to scholarships and make promises, they don't feel the same guilt. We know a lot of cheating scholars who didn't go back to India, who stayed in India, but all eyes are not on them. So I think crowdfunding is not just like that easy. It also comes with a lot of baggage.

Of course, it's it's putting yourself out there, and then my opinions are still I would say very mild. Yeah. Have strong opinions as well, who would comment on those things, saying खुद से क्यों नहीं कर सकती?

And I had somebody had sent police to my house. What? Yeah, I got a lot of backlash, and that's why I said like it. Messed up my mental health, and because I was in the middle of a crowdfunding, like I was in, I had like gone well into it, and that's why I couldn't have stopped it back then. But I was like, क्या करूँ मैं अब यहाँ से? Like police भी घर आ गई, and my parents have also like started to freak out. They're checking like they're checking the bonnet of the car. They're checking, and at that point they didn't of course say कि क्यों आए हैं। There was no they didn't like declare क्यों आए। They were like बस आए। And they know, they, they also asked because this was 2 years after the COVID When was this? Uh, 1 year after the COVID Yeah, when I went. So when they came, they were like, so my brother was in Chennai and they came and they said, um, had he come back during the, uh, when the COVID wave started? My parents were like, yeah, they came. Um, he came very early on and they said, no, but you guys haven't declared it.

So my parents were like, nobody declared.

Uh, like everybody went home. Nobody declared. So they were like, "That's why we are here. We were just checking whether you know declared it or not," which was like very weird and absurd. So they went around the house. They looked at the garage. They looked at everything, and they were like, "Hmm," and then they went. So that was quite quite. I mean, it was quite intimidating to be very honest with you. And then of course, the online trolls and the emails. I got an email saying that I'm taking you to court. I was like, "You buy me? Take out your big gun." So I had a back and forth with him, and then everybody asked me to just stop responding to them. But yeah, there's a— it was also a lot for my parents to see because I was not wearing hijab in those videos. Like, a lot of videos, like interviews, came out and then everybody was cursing my parents. They were like, your daughter is not in hijab, you haven't raised her well. And then my parents had to see all of that, my relatives had to see all of that. Some were enjoying, I'm sure, and some were not. But it was really tough time for everybody. And I'm sure like other friends who also crowdfund— oh my God, the other Kashmiri girl it just was too terrible for her. They pictured her house and they put it on Twitter. They were like, she has a big house, she shouldn't be crowdfunding, and all of that. So, um, yeah, it was really bad for all 4 of us.

Do you have to wear a hijab when you go back? No, no, not anymore. Sorry, not anymore? Or were you—

No, I never wore any hijab. I think I was in 4th class when I started wearing hijab I got inspired by some friends. I really enjoyed that period, but I think yeah, the it wore down over a period of time. But my sister does like on and off. My sister does. She's in Dubai right now. Okay. Yeah.

And then so you didn't get through the Shrivning scholarship?

Yeah. So what happened when the waiting period for the from the in From the interview results to the till till the time they finally said that you're not in, that's when I started crowdfunding. So I'd also started crowdfunding at a very risky time because what if I got through? What would I do with the money? And how would I send that money back? Because milap say you can't like send back money. So I was low key hoping that it doesn't happen. It doesn't come through because of course like that I would be in a much bigger dilemma. Then, तो लोग कच्चा चुवा जाते हैं। हाँ, so yeah, cheating didn't happen then. None of the reserve candidates that year got through. Yeah, but like I said, my department gave me 25% more, so that also helped. I think one more thing that also helped me was that there was this one person from, of course, who's a Britisher. So when he saw my campaign, he said that he could give me free housing. And I was amazed, but my parents were also shocked at the same time. Like, why would you take like such favors from someone? But because I think I still had the teenage hormones running in me at that age, so I was like, "No, no, I'll take it up." So I took it up for one month. I stayed in that house, but after one month, I realized, "Yeah, इतना नहीं हो सकता।" Like he's also giving me a free house, but he's also paying my bills. I was like, "I don't want to do this." I understand like he has some sort of like sentiments towards my place, but this is too much. So the second month I moved out. I was like, "मैं इतना पैसा मैंने raise कर लिया है कि I can afford my own accommodation now." So I was like, "I'm really sorry, but I have to move out." So I moved out. But yeah, people supported in all different ways. Right.

And then you worked in the civil service in the UK for a while. You went back in India to work with, and then you came back again. What's that journey like in? What are the choices you had to make?

So when I started work with UK civil services, I was really excited because I'd just freshly come out of a public policy degree and I couldn't wait to like put everything in action. Um, I joined, um, as a policy advisor, uh, to the, uh, in the railways department.

It's called Department for Transport.

And I had the most amazing team ever. Um, my manager, I hadn't seen another manager like her. Like, she was a unique one.

And she was— it was also the first time she was managing someone.

Um, and then I also had a team, um, everybody was English. Uh, there was no one, not even like no immigrants, no brown person, all white and me. Um, and then, but the kind of care, uh, the kind of, uh, motivation and passion at work was completely different from what I had experienced in India. Like, while they loved their work But what they loved more was their personal life. They didn't— they couldn't wait back to go home. And also, the kind of, um, values that I witnessed at work were quite different from the values I witnessed in India. For example, my manager's prerogative was to see me grow. So she would make a plan for me every time. Uh, she was like saying, what do you want to learn this month? And I would say, you know, my— I think my stakeholder management skills are not that great, so can you do anything for me?

And she's like, of course, I'm gonna come up with a plan.

And then she comes up with a plan and activities which can help me strengthen that. And then she would score me every quarter more than I expected. Like, she gave me exceeds expectation in every quarter. While I know, like, that's not the best thing to do, but I was surprised. I was like, how can I be, like, exceeding expectation in every quarter when I'm not exceeding my own expectations? And then whenever I would doubt myself, she would tell me that, you know, Sehrin, you're the best we've got. And she would, like, pat my back every time. And she will— she's also given me, like, awards and all of that. So I was in a very nurturing environment, and it's not that work-wise we were not achieving things. I was put on the— I was put on the best certificate courses. For example, I had the APM management training done. I got the certificate on all of that.

So all of that was happening. I was meeting ministers.

I've been meeting different people while knowing that, you know, my manager and her manager had my back.

They knew I was not—

it was not easy working with them because one, I didn't get the accent. I still have a problem getting the accent. So they got me softwares which, uh, convert voices— I mean, you know, voices into subtitles.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, they would be recorded for me so that, you know, if I wanted to go back to that conversation, I would have that. So they gave me all the, um, uh, facilities possible. Um, but at the same time, I was not enjoying the work. It's not something that I've done in my life, you know.

This is—

this was a very technical piece, and I've always worked in impact space. This is more of a project management policy delivery, um, in a sector that, you know, I'd never worked on. Um, so, um, and I was always passionate about education.

Well, the kind of work environment here and that compared to India is so different. Like, my manager does not ask me a question if she sees I'm having lunch. Yeah, and that's just so thoughtful. Yeah. And Like they force you to get out of office after work. Yes, just go.

Yeah, I mean, the bar was not—

sorry, yeah, go ahead. I was saying the bar was so not so high in India because I knew what was I going into. I'd worked in India before.

Yes, that's the thing with organizations that seem so inspiring on the outside. Yeah, fortunately I've worked with managers that have been wonderful for me, almost all women, and like I've had great relationships and haven't had as much issues. But the last one was very similar, which is why I came here. I was back in India, I was working इन ऑर्गेनाइजेशन दैट जस्ट टुक द जॉय आउट ऑफ़ एनीवन हुआ था। यार, इन दैट वन फेज़ ऑफ़ लाइफ, एंड आई कैम बैक हियर, एंड दैट्स व्हाट यू सी द ड्रास्टिक, लाइक, स्पेशली जब आप सेक्टर में ही वर्किंग टूवर्ड्स वैल्यूज़ लाइक एम्पैथी, कंपैशन, डेवलपमेंट, एंड यू, यू प्र It's just all, I would say, all show and no actions. So generally, in the ones that I've done before, I kept a glass of water beside me today. I forgot, but for branding purposes.

But they were actually telling me with the glass camera. But the chai being charging glass means chai. Chai में पानी होता है तो that works. हाँ सी पानी होता है exciting.

Yeah. Okay, we're almost like at time now in terms of the things that I want to talk about. I also know that you want to talk about something. Would you like to now?

So I haven't like really prepared anything, but I was actually talking about what anxiety makes you do certain things in life.

And this is something I've never faced anxiety before.

Of course, like everybody doesn't in Different phases in their lives, but the intensity that I witnessed this time was alarming, and the things that it made me do was something that I wanted to reflect and more read on. And not just me, also one of my friends. Another take a name because I don't think she's comfortable, but I was able to see how high functioning people with a lot of—I'm not calling myself—I'm just using this for my friend. How high functioning people with a lot of intelligence can undermine themselves because of poor mental health and anxiety. And I say this because you know when I was—I knew like I didn't have the best of support for me, so I would literally not sleep for weeks altogether. I would wake up and I was putting on Christmas break. I'm on Christmas break. Ten days of holidays would have rewired my brain, but because anxiety so much, I would wake up at night and start crying for no reason. And I know Manjil is also in a similar space. Probably he has a good manager. But because he's able to like, he has a better mental health than mine, he's able to manage it better. Like, he's able to like put the negative stuff out of the door. For me, that is where it, you know, where I was revolving my life around, what I was revolving my life around. And I see that how women are prone to more anxiety, uh, prone to doubting themselves and having worse mental health conditions. Because I told you about this friend who has the best opportunities in the world, um, literally like I, in my circle, there's no one who's gotten accolades and awards as much as she does. But I see her doubting herself every single day. She calls me every day and she's like, so she's recently secured a scholarship, a very prestigious scholarship. She calls me again. She says, "What did they get away from me?" That is anxiety, and it's not even funny because she cries so much. She doesn't think it's going to go away. And recently something very weird happened. So she's an anxious sex work. She's a high functioning anxious person. Um, she um, she feels that there are certain spots in her body that feel pain. She goes to the doctor, and the doctor tells her there's nothing wrong with you. Everything is perfect. Why don't you get these tests done? She gets tests done, and she realizes that certain vitamins in her body are I mean the vitamin level vitamin B all that. And then she thinks that there's a disease. She calls me. She says, "You know, मैं बीमार हो गई हूँ," and I don't know what to do now. मैं आप आऊँगी क्या? Like this new event in her life. Let me be able to like get onto that. And I'm like, "This is just vitamin deficiency." And she cries. She goes online. She orders her medicine. She orders her injection. She gets injected. These are the most expensive medicines out there. And then she finds a small fault with the medicine, and then she's like, "Oh, I'm gonna die." The medicine spelling it the other way. She's like, "I'm gonna die." And then she spirals so much that she puts it out on all social media. She's like, "I'm not gonna make it. I'm not gonna make it." And then when everything settles, the storm settles, she realizes what stupidity that was. She waited a week or two in her life doubting herself, and actually nothing was wrong. So that's also something that happened to me. Like I doubted myself so much because of anxiety. My manager once told me that one of my documents did not have a full stop somewhere, and I doubted myself so much. I remember I wrote a letter. I had to write a letter to a bureaucrat. I remember sending it to my friends. And I said, can you give it a read? And my friends were like, this is perfectly okay. And I was like, no, as an Oxford graduate, as someone who studied at convent, who knows sufficient English to write a good letter? And then there are like so many grammar correcting platforms. I did not trust myself because of that anxiety. And I feel this anxiety is induced in you, is what I was trying to get at. This is not something that you're born with. Of course, like, your genes do play a role in like, uh, your mental health conditions. But as women, because you're brought up in certain conditions, you're made to believe that it's you, it's your problem. Uh, for example, my friend and I share similar circumstances. While growing up, we were told, um, that, you know, your decisions are not yours to take, they're somebody else's to take. And then right now, like even at this stage, I'm 33. Whenever I have to take a decision, it's never mine alone. I always tend to ask different people because my anxiety gets to me and it always tells me I'm making the wrong decision. So I go to my father, I go to my mother-in-law, I go to my mother, I go to my husband, I go to my friends. I collate all the information and I'm like, okay, this is the decision I need to make. And this is also with my friend. So no matter like where you're in life, you know, like people see me as someone like she talks for her own sake, lot of agency, lot of freedom, and she's also happy. She knows how to make decisions. That's okay. As women, we've been conditioned to believe that you can't make your own decisions. And also, like, you've been, you've been, you've been allowed to doubt yourself to such an extent while growing up. That you still can't, like you're still not proud of the decisions you make. You're still not capable of making decisions because that's what I'm saying. And this is how I also like reflect between, like this is the distinction I can make between Manzar making decision and I'm making decision. I've been a lot more rebellious than Manzar. I've been in circumstances where I had to fight a lot as compared to Manzar. But I see that decision making for him is so easy. And for me, decision making is like so difficult and I have to like get approved from like 20 other people. And he said, why do you give a shit? And I was like, no, I do because you know all these people. And none of those people mean like dearly to me, but all these people. Um, so what I was trying to get at was these feelings induce anxiety and this is common between me and my all the other girlfriends and As a result of which, like, we witness high-functioning daily anxiety, which stops us, prevents us from making decisions, or prevents us from sharing spaces with people. And we do like eventually end up in those spaces, but then it's not more difficult for us to get into those spaces because, like they say, a man's confidence is made from a woman's confidence. So we have to go with all that baggage and all that struggle to make that decision. Sorry, I blabbered, and this was like very half-hazard.

It's very important what you're saying, and very interesting because I haven't thought about anxiety being induced. Like, I understand the taking away of autonomy or decisions for women, all the things that come with being a woman in a conservative society especially. But yeah, it's just so difficult to imagine that kind of things that happen to people, and and the result of them show in such different ways that when when there are things like oh will they take this scholarship away from me? A normal person would laugh at it. कि ये क्या सोच रही है तुम्हारे पास है? But and and we often laugh at things that seem futile in that in that sense, and the fact that the person with that anxiety also recognizes it as a futile thing, and the guilt of being anxious about something that doesn't exist as well. So it's just it's just so difficult to be in a space where you're constantly being questioned, and then you start questioning yourself, and there's no one solution to it. It's It's very systemic. Yeah. Some of it comes from you, a lot of it comes from your environment. Yeah. I've been in the mental health space for a long time and I've realized that no anxiety is the same. Like there's no one cure that you can have. अच्छा तो मैं ऐसा सोच रहा हूँ, ऐसे क्यों नहीं सोचते? और फिर ठीक हो जाएगा। No. And I think it takes years of therapy, self-work, and constantly re-questioning the doubts that you get. Yeah. To get to a stable place. Yet your surroundings don't allow you to heal as often or as much as you possibly could. Beyond beyond anxiety, I think it's the role of people around you to normalize. Yeah. And I I I observed myself chuckling when you said, will they take this scholarship away from me? Because It sounds funny. Yeah, yeah. When you really think of it, or when you're with someone who, when you understand their feelings, that is when you normalize it as a valid thought to have. Yeah. It allows me as a— but I'm guessing so eventually we can say, yeah, this is, this won't happen. When it does not happen, then for the tendons, you have to believe.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think I also, um, I also like saw a show very recently. Um, I don't remember the name of the show. It's on Netflix. It's, um, it's basically a cookery— I won't call it cookery— it's a chef competition for Langham Hotel in London. Oh yeah, I heard of it. Yeah, so there are a couple bunch of chefs. One of the chefs is an Asian, um, Immigrant, I think born and brought up in the U.S. or in the U.K. But anyway, she had Asian parents. So after every episode, because they reflect, they kind of like go back to every chapter and they're like, "How was your journey? How do you think you performed today?" So everything a great thing. Everybody had great things to say. हाँ, आज जैसा ऐसा बना, था ऐसा बना, था ऐसा बना। She would say, she said it twice in the whole series. She would say, "I think today my parents finally will be proud about me, proud of me." And then the last when she loses, she says, and she was like in her thirties, late thirties. She says, "Oh, you know what? I I thought that you know like I was getting closer to my parents finally. You know like being proud of me. They will finally say that I've dominated. But I think I come back to square one." I'm so like she could select so many different different things in the episode. This is how I made the clean. This is how I made this. But all that she chooses to focus on is that one thing that went wrong in her life, which made her to believe that she's not good enough. So I say anxiety was like works like that. No matter you have like thousand different good things in front of you, that one thing it makes like it fixates you on that one thought and then you feel you're not. You're just not good enough. So for people to think that you know like people in these like prestigious institutes where their workplaces or academic spaces have it easy, I would say no. Like they have it very very tough. And also my friends and I were also discussing that knowledge is also a vice. Knowledge is not always virtual. More knowledge you have, the more you know that how wrong you've been treated. You know? And then because of that, you always like kind of question yourself and you always. Make yourself believe that you're not good enough. For example, my civil services checks were ongoing and they were the longest checks. They went on for three months, and every day of that check I have been like, "They're going to reject me." They were like, "Give us your right to work." I gave my BRP. Like this is so straitjacketed, isn't it? Before I would have been like, "I need your right to work." हो गया, BRP दे दिया, हो गया. I've I've written thousand emails to them. Oh, is it done? Would this qualify? And they're like, "You need to calm down." And that was the first time somebody said, "You need to calm down." And I realized this is my anxiety. Like why am I doubting? I know all the documents. And so much so somebody always said to me, "कड़ी पार कर क्या हो? क्या तू इतना डर रहे हो?" I was like, "सच है यार." I mean, I would doubt myself. But I was the first time that I face had such a close face off with Um, anxiety, and I realized that it's not me, it's probably my environment, because I also see like other people around me. For example, like I said, I'm very rebellious, right? But all the rebellions that I've made, I've always had self-doubt. I've always come back saying that, oh, this is probably not the best thing I should have said, this is not what I should have said, I shouldn't have stood up for this. But I see my other friends like who stand up for, for example, cause like policy and other things, they're like, no, head on, like this is what we believe in. I don't even know at the end of the day what I believe in because anxiety, you know, right? And true for my friends also, play safe all the time because they also want to like appease all the people, want to be in everybody's good books. So women are also taught that. So, um, yeah, anxiety also leads to that. There's a lot of half-assed thought and a lot of— I don't know how to be structured.

I think these are important conversations that need to happen. In all kinds of settings, and there's so many factors that affect where you are, how you feel. कि ऐसे कोई एक चीज़ पे कंपटीशन नहीं हो. I think they need to become a part of regular average conversations is when things like these hopefully get people feel better.

Yeah, yeah.

I think what people generally don't realize is कि I think a fallacy that humans have is that I think everyone else is like them. Yeah. And even though in in some sense we are, yet there are so many things that make up a person कि I can't base your anxiety levels on the basis of the things that happen to me. I think that's that's when we need to enter a conversation with more Which is interesting because I actually believe the other way around.

I believe that not all humans are same, and that's why I am the way I am. And that's why, like, I feel that, you know, I really wish to be someone else sometimes. And like, oh, it would have been great if I had like no, um, I mean, there are no times in my life I would help myself. And I also want to like have that mean confidence and say that means you might get your head on. I mean, uh, and that's why I feel like— and I see how childhood actually contributes to that, like different, different childhood contributes to, um, adults growing differently. Um, so yeah, like I, I see that, you know, how humans are different from each other and how it's a privilege to be someone with more confidence and more, um, autonomy. For example, you met Tanika, right? You see like how confident she is. Yeah, exactly. And I've gone to her house, um, and I also know Manav, who's very energetic, like capable of making his own decisions. Like, he's so chirpy and like gets along with people so well. And I know, like, I've been to his house, I know why it's like that. And then I also know like these other friends of mine who are like me, and I know like what's happening in the houses. So it's also very important to see, like— and there's also very important— it's also very important to not just entertain one kind of— not make role models out of one kind of humans. Because for every— you should also like this kind of privilege that comes with that. For example, if you're chirpy, you're next to what you, you know, make your decisions, it's a lot of privilege as well. Yeah, that's holding you back.

मुझे तो लगता है पेरेंट्स कैसे एंट्रेंस एग्जाम्स होने चाहिए बिफोर दे अलाउड टू हैव चिल्ड्रेन सोसाइटीज़ के लिए यार आई मीन माय पेरेंट्स वो 18 एंड 20 लेस देन 18 एंड 21 व्हेन दे हैव द फर्स्ट चाइल्ड एंड आई एम 28 नाउ आई कैन't इमेजिन राइजिंग अ चाइल्ड एट दिस ऐज या आई नो Do you want to be a parent?

So because of this thought, because I know like parenting is not easy. I mean, finances is a separate thing. Like having a proper finance school or a pot for your child is a separate thing, and I'm not getting into that. I think that's a बन जाएगा अगर हमने प्यारेंगे। What I feel is that am I capable of being a good mother? Am I capable of being a good parent? I would say no. And is Manjul capable of being a good father? At this stage, I would say no. I mean, he has all the love to give to the world. I have all the love to give to the world. But that love does not come with accountability and sacrifices. That is when he decides to give out love to the world, right? There's going to be this human that would need constant attention from us. 24/7. Do we have that capacity? We don't have that capacity. Do I know how to nurture, how to like bring up a life? I don't. People say you learn along the way. I don't want to learn along the way. Your child is going to experiment, right? So until and unless both of us are like 100% sure that we want to go into this and we want— we can sacrifice careers to a little extent and then get into this, because you can't make space for both together. Of course you can make space for both together. That's not what I'm suggesting. I think you have to sacrifice like parts of your life. You'll have to sacrifice friendships, you'll have to sacrifice a little bit of your career, and then you're able to like raise that child. But yes, I'm fascinated with the idea that the kind of— the kind of, um, wisdom and the kind of teachings that I can pass on to an offspring and how different is that going to make that person. fascinated with that thought. Like, I sometimes I think that my parents had me and my other siblings without a lot of thought, and because of that we just— we're just random 3 children. But I'm fascinated with the thought, like, if you like make a plan around it, if you like strategize around it, and then have those values passed on, I'm really interested in seeing what that can lead to. But right now I don't see myself doing that. It's difficult.

In your own time, hopefully.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're at the end now. Many people start here with the idea— I thought I'd do like a similar thing, that how people engage with celebrities, and then I talk to normal people as if they're celebrities. But I feel like that's not who I am. It would be a lot of acting. Fun questions. I think I enjoy a natural conversation much more. Yeah, no, I मुझे बस एक और सवाल था which which might be stupid. But so जैसे one what language do you speak in Kashmir?

I speak Urdu and Kashmiri.

Right and then do people जैसे काफी नौती नामे से भैया बुलाते हैं लोगों को?

हाँ हाँ All these जो भाईजान भैया भैया So we have had a lot of Hindi influence because of Bollywood. Right So my in-laws जो जो भी surprise है मेरे sister call me दीदी because मुझसे इंद्रियाँ भी call itself and then sister आप ही Yeah They're like you have a lot of like Hindi Hindu influence and me भी वो खूब patterns हैं वो सारी similar to Kashmiri pundits.

Right Yeah बस ये भी Is anything that we're leaving?

I can't.

I just think there'll be so much. Sorry? I'm sure there'll be so much that we haven't talked about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And also like this is what my fear was. The conversation is going to go in a direction where it would be a lot about marriage and family, and that's what happened.

Because my fear was like ये मुझे नहीं करना है। Well, if you told me before then we could skip those things.

नहीं but I also feel the things that I want to talk about are very um I would say like that they can get a lot of flak, but I don't see कि मेरी ज़िंदगी कैसा आसान हो जाएगी उस चीज़ के साथ। So I don't.

This podcast currently has zero viewers. So this this is catching fire. हाँ Maybe this is my way of catching up. क्या बोली कश्मीरी महिला इंडिया की महिला में?

Oh my God!

मैंने इतनी so wonderful talking to you पता नहीं कैसे ये date done करी गई है। Yeah same, same.

I believe I think I would have loved to talk about the rebellions with my parents because I think like women would like would be able to relate to that more. But मुझे लगता है कभी और करते हैं फिर like अगर कि sure we can do extended version and then more. Yes I was saying that for example the most significant part of my life was moving out of Kashmir. That was the most difficult part because like you know I ran away from my home. Okay. That's why I did not discuss but let's do it some other time and I am also moving to London on the second. I won't be around.

Yeah, I'm here for a while.

आप जा रहे हो ना वापस?

पता नहीं क्या ही हो रहा है मेरी लाइफ में। अभी तो नहीं जा रहा। मैंने सिविलाइज़ेट वीज़ा। Oh, I'm on a sponsor visa. Oh really?

हाँ। ये भी जाना है। वैसे मैं भी ऐसी थी जाना जाना। मेरा मन तो इंडिया में लगता है। कोई नहीं जाऊँगा मेरे को भी लगा था। Actually, वो इसी चीज़ I can't. So a journalist friend of mine from Oxford, she also met me the other day and she also said कि अरे यार अब जाना मैंने मेन काम किया इसमें काम किया। फिर मैंने उसको मुझे मिला था। Yeah, but I think ठीक है वे शायद अपनी अपनी संसाधन हैं। हाँ वे क्यों? ठीक है मैं I will give you guys room and also give you guys a meal. सबको मिलेगी transport.

सबको मिलेगी transport. Yes yes important.

ठीक है और हम खाते हैं साथ में focus। Yeah बस इन हर्षन में और जिस चीज़ के लिए तुम टूट गए हुए, टूटने वाले हुए। मैंने दर्शन करा कि सारा काम ना उसी ऐसे ही इंसान में ले लूँगा। आज से मैंने बोर्ड स्टार्ट कर दूँगी। एंड देन देन मुझे वो आंसर, ये जैसे रीज़न फ्रॉम आंसर। आपने ऐसा पेश माय साथ पर कि सोचिए मैंने जैसे रीज हैं तो उन्हें मैं काफी ज़्यादा ज़िम्मेदारी को दे रहा हूँ कि ऐसा कुछ भी नहीं हो सके हम्म या मैं ज़्यादा उनको सीखने के लिए सोच रहा हूँ। तो तुमसे बहुत धन्यवाद। या धन्यवाद। प्रियंका की शुरुआत है। सिस्ट। या बाय।