Episode 34: Robert H. Thompson on What Leaders Need Today

Hello and welcome to the Better Life, Better Business podcast. I'm your host, Shawn Ellis. A few months ago, I had the privilege of sitting down with my friend and mentor, Robert H. Thompson. Robert is the author of a book titled The Offsite: A Leadership Challenge Fable, and he's spent more than 30 years working with leaders around the world with clients ranging from AT&T to Hewlett-Packard to Lockheed Martin, Nike, and many more. He's also served as a senior consultant with the Tom Peters Company. Needless to say, he's someone I deeply respect, and he's the first repeat guest here on the podcast. When I invited Robert to come on, he shared in the conversation something deeply personal. He shared a diagnosis that none of us would ever want to receive. And yet what struck me as I spoke with Robert was that what you hear in his voice, in his words, what you hear is perspective and steadiness, care. And I've sat on this conversation longer than I intended, not because it didn't matter, but because life has been full and I wanted to do this conversation justice. But what I've realized is this: sometimes the most important conversations don't need polishing. They just need sharing. So Robert and I both acknowledge we may be a little rusty behind the microphone, but I think you'll find that what matters here isn't perfect delivery, it's honesty, authenticity, and perspective. Because in this episode, we talk about leadership, about legacy, and about what leaders need right now. Because I asked him, over the 30 years, what is it that you would say today, what's different about leadership today. And as you'll hear, while I speak about the 5 C's of radical adaptability, Robert adds a 6th C in this conversation that I think is exactly what is needed right now and always. So if something in this conversation resonates with you, I'd love to hear what stands out. Send it my way and I'll make sure Robert sees it. So here we go, my conversation with Robert H. Thompson. Robert, welcome back to the podcast. And I say welcome back. I was thinking about this before we, we spoke. Of course, we've known each other for years, but you're the first repeat guest on the podcast. So, so that's, that makes it extra special. So welcome back. Thanks for taking time to chat.

It's good to be here. It's always good to chat with you.

Yeah, well, likewise. I'm really excited for our conversation. I know, you know, there's been, been been some years in between our, you know, when the first time we worked together to now. And of course, our lives have changed, the world has changed. And change is something I think everybody's talking about these days. I know all the calls I'm getting from organizations, it's about all the uncertainty, all the change, there's a lot of fear. And of course, with that, you know, it ties perfectly into your space of leadership. I know that's been your domain of expertise for decades. So our conversation today, I would love to get your leadership perspective, both on how we lead ourselves, but how we lead teams and organizations. You've got your 4 commitments that we can talk about, but just really, what does it look like to lead in this space today? And that's not the opening question, but those are some thoughts on my mind that I hope we can get into today.

Well, number 1, I love your new theme that you've got going with Keep the End in Mind here is what you— how you want it to. How you want to end, because that's where I'm at. And the, the world has shifted, Shawn, since the last time we spoke, um, like this anyway. Uh, I was speaking with my oldest son the other night, and we were talking about when my book came out, which was 2007 or so, something like that, um, the only technology mentioned in the book was a voicemail. There was— I mean, there was some texting, you know, BlackBerry kind of stuff and so on, but nothing like what we have now. And there was no social media, uh, to speak of. I mean, I think there was some, some stuff bubbling, but it really, you know, Friendster I think was out there, whatever. Uh, Facebook and Twitter and all these things were just starting to launch, and social media has made such a change in the, the way we communicate, overall in the world and especially in the United States. Now, mainstream press, of which I'm a person that came from mainstream press, I worked for the San Jose Mercury News for years and had my own newspaper company for years. But, you know, getting a newspaper on paper is kind of not happening as much as it used to. Getting them digitally is happening more often. And then getting your news from social media, getting your communication from social media is where people, uh, are really resonating. And that can be a mix of truth, and it could be a mix of false— falsity, lies, misunderstandings, uh, on purpose, not on purpose. So people are really struggling out there. I understand that. I um, in corporations of when I was first starting out in the '90s with, uh, the leadership work, um, it was pretty stable. Uh, you know, you went in, you did some workshops, maybe you did a speech here and there and this kind of thing, you did some coaching, but there wasn't the tumultuousness, uh, that exists in the workplace these days. People are in fear of losing their jobs just because AI is out. So now you're going to lose your job because of a robot. AI, great thing and also a bad thing. So how we use it, that's, that's the, the whole key to the how we communicate. Yeah, yeah.

He mentioning— I'm glad he tied it back to, to your background and, and printed news, because really that, we could talk about that industry, how it's changed, but also to me just speaks to how rapidly things are changing. I mean, that's, and talking about where people get their news now, that's, to me, there's, it's almost like there's sort of a microcosm there of what's going on. The, how do you, if you're in the news feed, how do you keep up in print news, traditional news media versus everybody knows everything instantly. I was trying to— my, you know, my phone, like, I can get my news in an instant, so why am I going to wait for tomorrow's paper? And of course, I know that's not a— that's not a new conversation, and there's people in that field figuring all those things out. But it really just speaks to— that's the pace everything is moving at these days. I mean, change is happening so quick.

Yeah. And my grandson, who's going to be 11 next month, um, he doesn't— he doesn't know I mean, he may know what a newspaper is. I, I don't know if I've asked him. Yeah, he may know that it's a physical thing, but, you know, reading books and so on, it's, it's iPad time. It's, you know, it's a computer. Yeah, everything is, is digital. And so the world, the world has shifted. And, but that doesn't mean— and here's the, the pivotal point— that doesn't mean that the focus on leadership should shift. Leadership hasn't changed. It's been talked about for decades and decades and defined by my colleagues, myself, and others, uh, with books that sold millions and so on, in variety of ways. But it's basically the same. It's how you approach it. So it has to start from inside and then it goes out. And so during my work, we called Growing Leaders— is one of the programs that we did— and it was about the leader, the person in charge, uh, because that's not always the leader, but person in charge, leader takes, makes the effort to grow the people within the environment. So when you talk about clients today, it's hard to say, first, um, you know, let's just set the fear aside, because it's impossible to set the fear of unemployment or inflation or any of the other things that are going on out there, um, autocracy growing in our country, that we would have never thought of 10 years ago. Um, it, it's making a difference in how we approach every day. Um, I noticed that, uh, years ago. So for me, it's the core basics of leadership, and that goes back to my model of show up every day, speak up, be creative, be thoughtful for, for for those around you, um, serve others, and definitely find your voice and share that voice authentically with those. And so that's been sort of my bread and butter for, you know, 20, 30 years, uh, one way or another, uh, working with Tom Peters and, and Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner and so on. Uh, you know, we use the Leadership Challenge material, but for me, once my book came out It was— I had to find my own words to demonstrate what I'm talking about and thinking about out there. Yeah. And it's been a journey. It's been a journey. Yeah.

Well, I— you, you mentioned them, the 4 commitments, and I'd love to kind of talk— like you said, leadership hasn't changed in, in so many ways. I mean, show up, that's not anything that's new for 2025 versus 1985 or 1925. Leaders have to show up. But what does it look like to show up today, to step up, serve up, speak up in the face of everything that's happening? If you were speaking to a group of leaders today or to a leader who's listening to this podcast, wondering how do I show up both for myself and for for those around me. Anything come to your mind as far as what's required of a leader today that may be different than 2 years, 5, 10 years ago?

You know, that's a good question. I don't know if it's different. I would say the word that springs to mind right now out of everything that I've done is care. Care for those around you, care for yourself. Self-awareness, um, how you're interacting with others. Reflect on that, um, constantly. You know, it's not like obsession, but you need to find out how your behavior is impacting others, and the way to do that is to talk to them. Uh, I think one of the key messages I would always share with folks was, if you have a problem with someone or something, uh, focus on it or that person. Don't let it bubble around and then well up someday in anger. Um, care about those that are coming and working with you. Um, they're putting their life in your hands if you're the titled leader. Um, notice I have references for different kinds of leadership because it's like, it's not the corner office that makes you a leader, it's how you behave. Um, and if you don't care, if all you're caring about is the bottom line, that's not leadership, that's management, and it's probably poor management to go along with that. So caring for folks, especially in today's climate, there's an awful lot, as we just mentioned, there's an awful lot of fear out there, and, and there's an awful lot of people who are apprehensive. Just driving down the street, you see people now, you know, it's no longer just a horn honk or something. It's road rage. Yeah, it's, you know, and you don't know, you know, what's going to happen at the grocery store. You don't know people are going to get, you know, upset inside the company. So you've got to care and show that you care. So reflect on how your behavior— it starts here. And it goes out. It doesn't start out there and come in. Self-awareness. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think you're so right as far as that caring piece. And we know that as far as what makes a great team or a great organization, the importance of psychological safety, people feeling, feeling safe, feeling cared about because there's so many threats. We can call them threats, perceived threats at least out there. And as a leader, you can be either another one of those threats, or you can be a safe place and create a safe place.

Exactly.

It makes all the difference.

It does. Uh, safety is, is, is critical within your organization. People have to be able to be able to say things, um, uh, in a, in a safe environment, um, because missing out on ideas. If you're the boss and you don't allow people to speak up and share their thoughts, or you belittle them if their idea doesn't seem to fit at the moment, you're losing creativity. You're losing the ability to have these people develop into creative folks. So, and, you know, as your theme, you know, it— choose your ending. Um, it's so important to do that because the only way to choose your ending is to know your beginning and follow it. How do you want your career? You know, this is what I would talk to the leaders today. I would say, how do you want your career to end? Do you want people to look back and feel that they learned something and that you were the person that helped them grow? Or do you want them to be the people that made you go? Um, it's, you know, it answers itself for most people, but there are people out there who don't care and they just go through life like a bulldozer. So those are the people I had— I struggled with over the 20 or 30 years.

Yeah, well, I, I appreciate the nod to, to Choose Your Ending, and that this Insigne that's over my shoulder here was inspired by— I was out in in California, in Los Angeles, walking toward the beach and on this side street, as I'm approaching the beach, all of a sudden I just see this big yellow sign that says "End," but right behind the sign I see the beach, the Pacific Ocean, palm trees, blue sky. It's like, I remember thinking to myself, it looks a lot more like a beginning to me. And just as I reflected on that, just realizing that between, endings and new beginnings, they really go hand in hand. We usually think of endings as a, as a bad thing, a sense of loss or a sense of failure. But, and of course, we've all had so many endings imposed upon us. But the idea is to empower people. Hey, you can, you can choose your ending, whether it's, you know, choosing to end a belief, a story, a behavior, but also choosing as kind of as you were alluding to, where, where do you want this thing to go and let that be let that be the guide, which reminds me of, you know, something as I was looking over your material, you've got some material that you train on. Are you, are you running from something or running to something? And, and when fear is running the show, it's so easy to run from something. But can you speak to that any, just in terms of maybe some of your work in that space? Or it's again, it's when it looks like everything's happening, happening to us, we we go into survival mode. We want to run from it. Running to something takes courage. It kind of comes from a different place.

But most people want their life to be a beautiful experience. Most people don't have that because life brings in different things that are upsetting. I go back to, um, Uh, my favorite philosopher— I, I've been into Stoic, Stoicism for a long time, capital S Stoicism, not the bro stuff. Um, and Epictetus tells us, uh, long ago philosopher, 2,000-plus years, tells us we can only control how we respond. And so when something's out there and I want to run towards it, if, if it's not That's if it's what I want. I'm going to run faster and my heart's going to be beating and quicker, and, and the stress is a positive stress. When I'm running away from something, something I don't want, my heart's beating faster and I'm in fear. So if you want something in life, you have to run towards it. Uh, you can't find yourself running away from something to then hopefully get somewhere. You have to have a goal in mind, a focus in mind, and run towards that. And there's going to be things along the way that try to keep you from it. You may even change where you want to go over time. I know I did. Um, I was in the newspaper business. I thought that was my end-all be-all. It was a great, great place to be. Um, but then I found a knife in my back, that, you know, corporate knives come and go, but knife in my back got me out. And I started my own newspaper company because I just needed to be, be the decider, if you will, and created that and took it national and so on. Um, but then even that changed, you know, that was fun, uh, very entrepreneurial and all this, but then I sold it and I found leadership and I found it probably to help myself first, uh, to really gather up some info. And that's where I met some of my colleagues, and that led to a whole career of another 20 years or so of teaching, uh, both in small workshops and in speaking engagements, some of which you booked.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, it's all good. Um, so I was running towards different things, but then the world shifted a little bit. And so I— but I kept running towards things. I didn't run away from things. And, and then most, uh, importantly, I think, uh, when— and I can speak from it now— when you're at a point in time where it's at your end of life, um, you know, I'm much older now, obviously, perhaps wiser, but, um, for the last 5 years or so, I've been dealing more or less with cancer and no one really knows that. It's the first time I'm sharing out there of any public place, but it began in a, a very small way and then it ended up becoming a bigger issue for the last 5 years. And even after surgery, it, you know, it wasn't— cancer's a tricky little thing and it didn't go away. And so this past February, Um, I had another checkup and I was told, well, it's not, it's not working. Whatever we were doing was not working and you've got about 6 months to live. So I went, all right. Um, that's in February. Now we're in July. So that's 5, 5 months into a 6-month diagnosis. I'm still feeling pretty good, still doing various things, exercise, all this stuff. But I chose to look at it as, um, a blessing in that, yes, I would like to have more years. Obviously, whenever you get to this stage, every— I don't know anybody that would say, oh no, I'd, I'd rather go 5 years ago. Um, because you want to have more time with your grandkids, you want to have more time with your kids, you want to have more time with your spouse. You know, you, you just function with life and you, you just— it, it's one of those things that you you knew was coming, but you sort of put in the back of your head. Everybody does. Yeah. But once it's there, it's a blessing. So I get this opportunity, um, not only speak to you, but to talk to others and talk to people in my life that, that there may be some healing that's necessary, um, you know, other conversations that should happen, uh, before one leaves, and goes on to whatever's next, if there's a next. And, and so that's where I'm at today. And so that's why it's important for me to, in a sense, hand over to you, um, this information that I think you can use because, you know, you're, you're still young, you're not going anywhere, and, but you're helping people, um, frame, what they want to end with or how they want to choose their ending so that they're leading and not causing more grief for folks, uh, by their behaviors. So everything, you know, how you believe, it creates your behavior. And if you can adjust your beliefs, you can adjust your behaviors. And I think that's an important key.

Yeah, well, I'm honored and grateful that you share that here in, in our space. And, and I love— I mean, I can't help but notice you, you share that with, with a smile, so much of that with a smile. And I know there's plenty of, you know, plenty of times of, of not smiling. That doesn't mean it's easy, but that you're really just embodying everything you're talking about. And we, the there's so many things that are outside of our control. And whether it's, you know, choosing your ending or the Four Commitments, it's all, and to go to Stoicism, it's about reclaiming your power in the midst of, there are plenty of places we can give our power away. But there's also an opportunity there to use the power of choice. And it's, I, you know, for me, going back to college, what I moved to Nashville to do music, and then I took this required human resources management class. And we had to read Principal-Centered Leadership by Stephen Covey. And the only thing I can tell you about that book, what I've never forgotten, was he talked about that we all have responsibility. We can't choose what happens to us.

I used to write, yeah, I used to write that on a white sheet for people. I would write the word responsibility up there, and then I would block it off, and I would draw a line between response and ability and say, you have the ability to respond to everything. So that's what got me started with Stoicism back in the '90s. And, and unfortunately, I didn't, I didn't develop that a lot. Um, other people have, and it's become very popular. Um, but it's also misunderstood in some ways, but we don't need to get into that. But it is about, uh, what Epictetus said. It's, you can only control your response. There's very little that you can control in life. So my response to cancer was, oh well, there's certain things I can do to eliminate it. And then I learned that I, I didn't have the— my body didn't have the ability to eliminate whatever is going on. So that was another heads up, like, whoop, I can't do that. So you either call into a whole and say, oh, woe is me, it's all about me. Um, and why me? That's the biggest question. Why me? Well, why not you? You know, person out here, you know what, that you were this and that and whatever. Titles don't matter. Um, the only thing that I, that I think about now is the— and, and there are thousands thousands of people, including my family, but thousands of people that I don't know now. You know, you might find them on LinkedIn or something, uh, but I've worked with those folks, helping them, and got, you know, I received feedback that said yes, what I was doing was useful for them, and then they went out and shared that information however they did with thousands more people. And so at this juncture, what I reflect on is I was able to impact, um, through— with others and, and through my studies and research and so on, helping thousands of folks live a better life. What— I don't, I don't know what's better than that. I mean, you know, I guess I could have been President of the United States and It's an easier job than it looks like these days. Um, but yeah, well, I would— I prefer looking back at my career because when I was in the newspaper business, I was helping people. When I started my, my own newspaper company, um, you know, it was focused on older folks at the time, and so it was helping people live a better life who were, um, retiring and/or, uh, getting, you know, into their elder years, which was back then was, you know, in your 60s you were getting really old. That doesn't happen anymore. But everything that, that my career has done, I've been blessed with the ability to use whatever talent I had to help people, um, and not from an ego perspective, just It's all beneficial. I tell you how many plane rides, um, that I took leaving a place back, back when we were flying everywhere for a 1 or 2-day workshop during Leadership Challenge time. And I was feeling so pleased that the feedback that I got from the people that what we did was helpful. Uh, one time I'll share with you one— this was one of those— it, it never happened again. And I can't remember where, where I was coming from. I had just done a, a long workshop, probably somewhere Michigan or something like that, and I was flying home. And it turned out that there was a bunch of people on the, on the same flight that were in the workshop. Um, I, I didn't, you know, I recognized them and waved and whatever and sat in my seat., and just got into my, you know, whatever I was reading or at the time. And one of them was so blown away by what we had as a group had discussed that changed her, uh, focus in her life. She evidently communicated with the, the stewardess that I was on board And she gave the stewardess some information. I can't remember, this is all foggy now, it's been years. Yeah. And brought this, this back in, in this, because it has never happened again. But the stewardess then got on the mic and started talking about this person that, uh, this person, the other person had told her about. And let's all give this person a, a hand. And I was looking around like, well, who is this person gonna be? I mean, it was a long lead-in to you know, this thing. And then they said my name, and I went, what? And everybody started clapping. And it— yes, that was huge on the ego, of course, there's no question about it. But when I got off that plane, I thought, wow, you know, this, this is important work. It's not to be— it's not to be looked at as just some sort of meet and greet, spill your guts on stage, and then go home and not care. Yeah, the people that come to you for your program, they, they're looking for something. And I've learned over the years that not everybody gets everything that you might share, but they at least get one thing. And if they can get one thing positive and go home and, and apply that with their family, with their colleagues, it will make a big difference. So, uh, it's important stuff that what, you know, and you've been doing this for a while, helping others get on stage, but now that you're doing this on stage, it's important for you to share your story, your journey. And so anyway, I'm sort of blabbering here, but it's just, you know, it's impressive that when you look back on your career and you can see the people that you've helped, and I don't need anybody to call me or send me anything. It's just, I know that that took place.

Yeah. No, it's, I'm so glad that you've, that you kind of led right in and found your way to that spot. Because I was, I was thinking about serve up, that the serving piece of leadership, and you spoke to it so well in this space where, where we work and have worked. That really, there's nothing more gratifying than to know that, like you said, that somebody that it even whatever, some fragment I've had, I've I've had times, and maybe you too, where somebody comes up and says, I love this one thing you said. And I was like, I don't think I said that, but you heard that somehow.

I— Exactly.

I said something that sparked that thought in you, and that's what you needed. I've got a friend in the music industry, and he's been a great friend and mentor over the years. But he always reminds me anytime I tell him where I'm going, where I'm speaking next, he always reminds me there's one person in that audience that needs exactly what you've got to share. And of course, we all hope that, you know, it's going to be more than one person. But just that reminder that it's really, it's one person at a time, one idea at a time. And, you know, I think when I first, when I started speaking, I was, I was a shy kid growing up. I was, I was fine getting on stage with a band, but I never imagined just getting on stage by myself. And of course, now I do. But yeah, the message that it started with was just the idea that this moment matters, which now it's, you know, the message has evolved far from that. But even then, I remember feeling like I'm the steward of this message, not the star. And I don't say that to bring any kind of accolades to myself, but it's just that idea of what you're talking about, of we are the stewards and it's an honor to do this. And I'm just so honored and grateful for everything you're bringing bringing us here today. But I guess as we do kind of work toward finding a way to land this conversation, that anything else you would add about that serving piece of leadership? I mean, you mentioned caring earlier. I think those go hand in hand. But what do you— anything else you would add about serving as it relates to leadership, particularly in today's environment?

You know, in my book, what I talked about there was, um, uh, turning the pyramid upside down. And in the past, uh, you know, and by the way, just servant leadership was Robert Greenleaf. He's the one that coined that term and so on. So I give him my— his due. Um, but in the past, you always had a company, um, framework where the CEO was at the top. For me, um, growing in at the Mercury News anyway, the publisher was at the very top, uh, and then you had the people that reported to him, and then you had the people reported to them, and so on down the line until you got to me. And I was at the beginning of my career, I was way down at the bottom, uh, but what I've suggested to folks whether you're the publisher or whether you're the CEO, whether you're the, the titled leader, is you turn the pyramid upside down and your job at the bottom of the pyramid is to support all the other folks. And that means individually and as a group, it means making sure that the environment, as you, you mentioned, is appropriate for what we're trying to accomplish. Um, making sure that the people that report to you that are right up next in the line are supporting their people, and that everyone gets the idea that your job is to support the people at the top, which is this, this now. So, yeah, so I, I think that's the way to approach servant leadership if you keep that in mind. And as we mentioned earlier, you have responsibilities, so you have the ability to respond to everything that's going on. And if you're the title leader, um, how you respond is extremely important. And if you're the manager— that's a title leader— so if you're the manager, how you respond to those people around you is incredibly important. It always has to be from a leadership or a servant framework. Um, and if you do that, you'll find that everyone will grow around you and be happy that you were in their life. Yeah. How's that?

Yeah, I love that. And to me too, also, when, you know, putting it in, you know, reordering things that way, looking at it through that lens, it brings so much more meaning and you find so much more fulfillment. Then it's not, it's not just all these challenges that are weighing down on us every day, all the uncertainty. All of a sudden you show up, which gets back to your first commitment, but you show up with a— there's a different meaning, there's a different purpose. And now I'm showing up to serve these people. And for those of us in speaking, communicating, that may be the audience. I think there's a great— it's a great lesson there from a speaking standpoint that it's the spotlight might be on you, the microphone might be on you. But again, if we make that shape, it's it's the audience that you're there to serve. Um, and it just, it changes everything, uh, about what you're doing.

Yeah. When people ask me, you know, what's the most— well, I don't know about most— most important kind of a thing to go when you're, when you're jumping on stage, you know, in a big group, um, is it's not about you. Keep that in mind. It's not about you. You have a message. And, you know, if you've overpracticed, it's probably going to come off a little blah, um, but it's not about you. So focus on the audience, learn about the audience. So, and again, it can be like you're, you're saying, Shawn, it can be the audience that you and I would step on stage with, or in front of a workshop group. That's the audience. Uh, before doing that, know about, you know, research who they are. You know, you don't have to go to the end of the world to do it. You You just have to know who they are, what they want, and so on and so forth, um, and then speak to that, um, and be authentic. Uh, if you come up with a program that isn't, isn't you, it's not going to work. You're going to be a person mouthing other people's words. And in some cases, that was what— how it started for me was that I was mouthing, uh, Leadership Challenge material. You know, because I got brought into that organization in Tom Peters Company, and they were using Leadership Challenge material, uh, almost full from the get-go. There was other programs that started after that, but we were all speaking words from others that Jim and Barry had developed with their research. Uh, it's useful and it's good, and the program was, you know, boxed in a thing. And you could, you know, at the time we had even overhead slides. I tell you, I think back at that time and I go, that's amazing. Um, but don't look, you know, don't look at your PowerPoints. Don't— in fact, get rid of PowerPoints if you can. Um, speak from your heart. We weren't doing that. We were speaking other people's words. And eventually it. I started to recognize that, and then I started to use my own language within those programs and then my other speaking engagements that were not a part of Tom Peters Company. Um, and that's where Show Up, Speak Up, Step Up, and Serve Up showed up. They just naturally came out of me because my work is, is practical. It's everything that I've, I've shared with you that we can't get into detail today. But there's detailed, very detailed answers to how you show up. You know, I've got, uh, 4 elements under each commitment, but under those 4 elements, there's massive amount of behaviors that you can do so that it's front of mind. And so when you're at work, you can look at this stuff and you can say, how am I, how am I doing? To people, you know, and, and get some feedback. And yeah, not all of it will be helpful. Not all of it will feel good. Uh, but that's part of the feedback. I mean, how many times have you got feedback that somebody said you sucked? Yeah. Well, I had, I had one lady almost take me out of a room on my, by my ear one day. I wrote about her in the book and she, uh, she was quite miffed at me for stirring her up. And it took her a while to figure out that that was okay and that she needed to be stirred up. But she was quite angry. Yeah. So yeah, it works out that way.

Yeah. Now sometimes it happens. My favorite, favorite negative feedback I've ever got on an evaluation form, a guy wrote on there, secondhand smoke causes cancer and 90 minutes of this listening to this guy causes hearing loss. Because apparently I was speaking too loud. I was like, you know, first of all, I'm not the one running the sound system, so I don't even have control over that. But also, you get the prize for the most, the most creative critique I've ever received. And hey, you know, there are— I heard something Zig Ziglar used to say, as I've been told from, from somebody else. I didn't hear this firsthand, but I guess Zig used to say, 3% of the people, there's no way you can please them. They're going to be disappointed in any way, or they're going to be unhappy with you. So he's like, don't disappoint them. So, you know, show up to serve those who, who need you.

And, and you do your thing. And again, if you're authentic about it and you open up your chest and share your heart, it'll impact more than the 3%. Yeah, but you don't have to impact them. And this again goes back to that one woman. You don't have to impact them that day. That's good that she got stirred up in anger with anger. Yeah, was, was a good thing, right? Right. Then I was in her head rent-free.

Yep. That's, that's such a great point.

Yeah, it took her, it, it took her a while, and then finally she reached back out, uh, because this was when I was doing a lot of work with Sacramento State University, and, uh, took her a while, but she could find me. You know, I was there from time to time, and she had to find me personally and come up and thank me and tell her, tell me that, you know, she hated my guts up until. So anyway, that's, yeah, so many. I had one time when I was first starting off with, with doing leadership work on my own before I met, uh, uh, Jim and Barry and so on. And I was doing this work, um, and I got a feedback form and, and, and it, it said, so, uh, um, you know, measure this person 1 to 5 or 1 to 10, whatever it was. And a person gave me a 1, and, and I'm sure they meant it, but I had the— I had— I knew how to get a hold of them. And I, I, I didn't do this afterwards because it was really putting them on the spot, but I called the person and I said, you know, what was it? I wanted to know what was it that cause to have a 1. And I think she— or she or he, I can't remember who it was— but it was like they, they sort of feigned, well, you know, I really meant great, you know, but I thought 1 was perfect. Oh, okay. Yeah, so a lot of stories like that of different feedback forms. I had one guy I was working with, with Leadership Challenge. We used to work in teams sometimes, and, um, He decided to throw away the, the feedback forms that were negative for our work that day. And I asked him, I go, why, why are you throwing these away? I mean, this is good information. He goes, yeah, but they'll go back to the bosses and the bosses will, you know, oh man, come on, dude. So, you know, he didn't get it and, um, I never worked with him again, so that was a good thing. So, yeah.

Well, as, um, As we wind down and come to the end of this episode, since again, you're the first repeat guest, and we're sort of bringing the podcast back after a bit of a hiatus. So let's, let's try something fun if you're up for it. As we wind down talking, going back to Choose Your Ending, and related to leadership and everything we've been talking about, could you identify, let's say, 3 things that you think, hey, we should really end this? And it may be, maybe the same thing today that you would have said 20 years ago, but 3 things that we should really choose to end this— again, a belief, a behavior, an idea— that as a way to, hey, let's let go of what's no longer serving us so we can step in and, and be the leaders that we, that we want to be, that we can be. 3 quick, 3 quick endings you could, could point to potentially.

Well, Yeah, on the spur of the moment, I think, um, I think your listeners, your audience, should focus on if the end— how they want the end to be, and not just of their career but of a project that they're working on. So I would like people to focus on a vision and, and a story. I don't want them to come up with a vision statement. That's old school stuff that doesn't really get anybody's heartbeat. But if they come up with a story about how they want the program that they're working on or their life to, uh, finish, a story would be critical. And make it a story that you can be proud of.

I love that.

Um, I think that's probably a good wrap-up.

Sure. No, that's, that's powerful. Um, I love that. Uh, well, Robert, I know, um, Shawn Ellis, again, I'm so grateful to have you back here to have this conversation. I'm grateful for you, for our relationship. And just to pull out something you said earlier, I have no doubt that when people listen to this, there's at least one thing in here— there's many things— but I have no doubt that everybody can find one thing in here that they can take and that will carry on long after either of us. Are here, because all of our, all of our days are uncertain. You said I'm young. You ask my kids, they will disagree with you.

But I'm—

but young, old, it's all relative. But, but every day is, is a gift. And again, I'm grateful. And may, may this live on beyond either of us.

Well, and, you know, as long as I've got a voice I will be willing to, uh, talk to anyone, share with anyone, um, from the get-go, uh, because I think that's an important way to end.

Yeah, I love that. And I will be happy to, uh, to send anyone your way. Um, check out Robert Thompson. You can find him, find him online. Check out his book. Uh, there's lots of wisdom there. So, uh, so thank you again, Robert, for, for this and for, for everything.

Thank you, Shawn Ellis. Talk to you later.

All right, see you.

Bye now.

All right, we did it. Does that feel like a— feel like a good— a good little—

yeah, it's interesting because I haven't— I haven't had that hat on for a while, and, um, so it's a little— I felt a little jumbled with certain things, but hopefully something came out of there. Then you can edit and get rid of the jumbling. Yeah, it, it's, um, it's just, yeah, I just appreciate that, that you're doing this and that I, I don't think, um, I don't think we, we need to— well, I don't even know what I'm thinking of right now. I just appreciate that you took the time to do this, uh, and, and if I can share more, we can do it again. Yeah. And maybe focus on the materials a little bit more if that intrigues you. Yeah, because I do— I'm serious, I, I think that, um, your theme, um, and the work that, that I've shared with you in whatever form it is, uh, can be useful. I don't know if you just want to do platform stuff, or are you doing small group things?

What Yeah, no, it's a great question. I appreciate you asking. No, I definitely— platform stuff is what I know the best, but I definitely want to go beyond that. There's actually one of the opportunities that's on the table right now is with San Bernardino County with their— I think it's— I don't know if it's their HR. I think it's their HR leadership team. But there's an opportunity to do a 4-hour program with 15 15 of their HR leaders, and then potentially to come back a month later for their, for their 200-person leadership event. And that would be more of a keynote. But, and I've done some half-day stuff. It's not that I haven't done it, but it's definitely the part that I don't have developed as much. So even, even thinking about that one, which is a few weeks away, and it's just, I don't know, it could easily— they could call today and be like, let's book it, or They're in the midst of, I think, all as all government is, they've got so many things going on. This thing first, it was going to be July 30th and they moved it to August 13th. So let alone booking me, I don't even know when they're going to pull this thing off altogether. But, but that's one example. I'm hoping that comes through because that's a baby step into that space. But I really, in my mind, I've kind of studied what are, what are some extended programs look like, like a 12-week program that combines some virtual pre-recorded but workshop type, type stuff because I would love to go deeper with this. But I know you've clearly, you've got a ton of experience in that space. I don't. So that's new territory for me to get into, but I definitely want to because I don't want to be on the road 80 days a year or 100 or whatever it is. So both for impact and also just for scalability, I know I need to find ways to go deeper and Um, anyway, long answer, but yes.

No, no, no, no, not long answer. I mean, you know, Shawn, my— one of my goals would be to help you do that. Um, if you'd— if you would like, excuse me, as a test, take, um, take the instrument that I shared. Uh, it's in a rudimentary form, you— but you can let AI mess with it. You can share a copy with me if you'd like to do this. Share a copy with me. Sure. That you can create that's more— got more pizzazz to it. But before you'd go into the HR folks, send them the instrument and have them, you know, and you can have my name on it in some way, shape, or form. But again, sure. Um, only, only in the sense that, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to take credit for other people's work kind of a thing. But you can definitely, you have my permission to, to use that, and you can send it to them in advance, let them score it and send it back to you, and then you have data that you share with them there. And feel free then to use— if you go into my PowerPoint stuff or Keynote, whatever shape it's in, um, you can see the various behaviors that people would need to do, and you can extract, pull whatever you think is appropriate and share that information and see if it resonates. And if it's comfortable for you in doing that then we can continue to have dialogue around licensing it just for you to use. And you can put your own spin, obviously, you know, like I did with Leadership Challenge. I put my own spin on it ultimately. Sure. But it was still Leadership Challenge. So the Growing Leaders thing, that's open. There's no trademark on— can't trademark titles. Yeah, uh, the Four Commitments, you know, you can weave them into your work as you wish. Share with me in advance that you're doing that. Give me some examples of what you're going to do so that I'm comfortable, and then tell me what happened after, after it, um, and see if it makes a difference. Um, everybody needs a little bit of, uh, different input to what their work is. It, it broadens what you're sharing And I know that it, it impacts people. They like the practicality of having 4 words, you know, show up, speak up, step up, serve up. Yeah. Instead of long-ass leadership bullshit that, you know, they can't remember or they have to go back to the book to recall. So my stuff is easily, easy recalled, easily recalled. Yeah. And, you know, kind of put your own spin on it. And see what happens.

Yeah, well, I, I appreciate you offering that and I love that. And definitely I'll look at it more, think about that. And of course, happy to point back to you and talk to you because, yeah, I, I want to do, do everything above board, both to honor you and also just because I wouldn't do it any, any other way. But I mean, yeah, thoughts come to mind because I've got these, this 5 C's framework that ultimately makes up my keynote right now. It's calm, clarity, courage, confidence, and community. But, and I say, call those the 5 C's of radical adaptability. But what just top of mind, I think of, you know, if I said, pointed to you and mentioned these 4 commitments, or, you know, kind of these 4 keys, 4 domains of leadership, and then even in sort of an introductory piece, and then these 5 C's, How do you execute all those? And again, this is keynote condensed, but then potentially workshop training, whatever, then we could expand more. So I definitely see everything going hand in hand. If you're going to speak up, you need calm, clarity, courage to start with.

Exactly. And again, those are your words and they're memorable for people when you have it in the 5 C's, the 4 commitments. And then I've got fast forward questions that are in there and the fast forward questions are, what are you gonna, uh, start doing, stop doing, and, and do more of, less of. Yeah. And those really used to resonate with people a lot because it was very easy to remember, but it's in a, it's in a little capsule, you know, more or less start, stop. Yeah. And so they can remember that. Uh, but, but again, go through it. If I come up with anything else that I think would be helpful, I'll shoot it over to you. But, um, I really think the instrument has a chance of helping you get the, the information you want from your audiences.

Yeah.

And you can always do it differently too. You can always, after the fact, you can run the instrument by them and share the information Um, and if you're in a small group, once they have that information that they have chosen to, to write in, right, uh, then they can have table talk. Um, so, you know, and dialogue at a small table of no more than, I don't know, 5 to 7 people, you know, best. Uh, so if you're in the small group, uh, and even in, even in large speaking engagements, if you have the time, um, you can put them into table talk and then walk around the room instead of being on stage and gather up data for them. Uh, that was Tom's— Tom Peters', uh, um, way of, of being different. He didn't stay on stage. He, he hated staying on stage, so he would walk off and take the microphone and, or, you know, if it's a lavalier or whatever, and just walk around the room and stare at people and made everybody uncomfortable. That shtick was. Yeah, so everybody has their own thing. Yeah.

Well, no, I'm, uh, I'm so grateful, true, on, on many levels that we've reconnected. Glad we got to do this podcast. But even this, you know, to be continued part of the conversation, I mean, there's so much I'd could learn from you. And, um, I appreciate your generosity. And even I'm thinking, if, if this 4-hour thing comes through, even again, I've kind of pieced these things together in the past, but even to be able to come to you and be like, hey, how do you— you've got 4 hours, what do you— what are the most important things? Just knowing you've done so many of these, what, what are, uh, from a— just from an execution of it, how much time should I allow for this, that? I mean, I'd be, I'd be grateful and, and just, um, all all ears for anything in that category.

Well, I'll be here one until I'm not.

Well, I, uh, I, yeah, I hope you're here as long as, as long as possible.

I don't think I, you know, I, I don't feel if, if I have something like this, and this is part of the good thing for me, is that having, having you, um, and being able to quote, quote mentor you on certain things helps me um, stay active.

Yeah, yeah.

Last, you know, I'm still writing, I'm still, you know, I, I would still coach people if, if I had that outreach, but I don't have the energy to or the desire to really do a lot of outreach for coaching. But if the coaching came through you, I would be glad to, to set aside Zoom time to do the coaching. Yeah. And, and you, you could charge whatever you want for that. And then give me whatever it is that we agree to. Um, there's just a— there's a bunch of opportunity here, and for me to pass this on.

Yeah.

And, you know, my kids aren't going to do it. None of them got into the space that I'm at. They're all in tech or what, you know, they're just not there. Yeah. Um, but, you know, you're there. And you're doing this and you have a theme. And I, I still think if, if you, if you have success with, you know, how you want to end things, you can also go back to how do you want to begin things? Yeah. For the very, for the very young. And I think that to me, and I don't want to belate, keep you from anything, but the beginning thing for the younger people, the high school or early college people, these days is huge.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's not certain. Yeah. There's a lot of uncertainty about, I graduate from college, so what? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Graduate from high school, so what? And there's a lot of kids getting out of school that don't understand what it means to be a citizen. They, they just don't, because they're not getting, they're not getting educated in that. So there's a need. To help people with their beginnings.

Yeah. Well, and, you know, something that you say in this— again, we can mark this as a to be continued, but I— it makes me think there is another piece of the— this program, this flow that I've— in my language, I've called it Live from the Future, which is, is sort of the beginning. I think it connects with what you're talking about because right after you've, you've chosen your ending, now what do you do? And the idea of and that phrase came to me years ago, but I've just sort of, it's come back to me in this context.

Exactly. Yes.

And that, that really is like, okay, let, let me live from the future today. Be, be who you wanna be today, but you gotta know who do you wanna be in order to be who you wanna be today.

So I don't know. That's, that's where the story comes in. Yeah. So, you know, one of my, one of my early things was to turn the vision pro— part of the program of Leadership Challenge into story. And now that's a thing out there. I, I see that from time to time. I go, oh, now they're— okay, I guess I was a pioneer there. Yeah, it was. But it was, you know, create the story, create the story of your future, whether it's a project or whether it's your life. Create the story and tell the story and make it and animate it, make it colorful. And, and, and things will just come to you. For instance, that statement you just said, I said this before, but it, but it got away from me and now it's back. Yeah, those are the things that, that you're sort of like a magnet, you're drawn to it.

So, yeah, well, it's so, so good, Robert. Um, well, truly, I'm grateful. Uh, thank you for time. You know, I know time, time and energy is precious, and thank you for sharing this here, and I look forward to continuing the dialogue.

Thank you for taking the time. Appreciate it.

Yeah.

All right, Robert.

Well, until next time, take care.