Selfridge's $2 Billion Build-Out: The Judgment Call No Committee Could Overrule

There's something to be said about not being the loudest voice in the room, not taking up additional time to reiterate what's already been said, but really getting to that direct question. And really it's, it's how do we get things done?

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From others over self, it's Hardcore and at Ease, a show about people who are keeping their edge without going over the edge. I'm host Shelly Rood. You already know what you know. Yes, you do. You've done the work, you've made the calls, you've earned the judgment, but you decided somewhere along the way that that doesn't really count as authority. Here's what I've learned watching Watching the biggest infrastructure projects in this state be built. The sharpest judgment belongs to whoever earned it, not whoever inherited the title. Today's guest has spent years proving that. This is Hardcore and At Ease. Today's guest is Vicki Rowinski. But before we give to her, I do want to take a second to just mention another woman who works alongside Vicki in the office here. Today's episode is dedicated to Megan. Megan Works in Macomb County alongside Vicki, and this week marks her first week back after maternity leave. Now, I have lived through that transition 3 times myself, and so I understand the demands that come back with not just returning after absence, but the emotion that goes behind it as well. Sometimes your brain is still with your newborn child, and sometimes you're glad to leave that newborn child so that you can pour yourself into a work project. But Megan, I'm here thinking about you today because this reminds me that we are not alone in our quest to be hardcore and at ease. Now let's get into today's conversation. A few times a year, I check in with Vicki Rowinski to hear where economic development stands here in Macomb County, Michigan. We're the home to Selfridge Air National Guard Base and the $2 billion infrastructure buildout that's now underway for the F-15EX Eagle mission. Vicki's team went after the F-35 bed down for Selfridge twice, and twice Selfridge lost out. And yet her read on the numbers never wavered because she was comparing apples to apples. She still believed that Selfridge outshined the competition. That was earned judgment that she didn't need anyone else's committee to agree with before she knew that it really counted. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Vicki. Welcome back to Hardcore and at Ease. Vicki is a returning guest with us here today, and she is the head of economic development for Macomb County in our beautiful home state of Michigan. Vicki, it's been a little while since we've connected on this platform, and one of the biggest changes or updates that we've noticed just as a local business is the rise in the forward movement of what's happening at Selfridge. So can you just start by maybe giving us a 30,000-foot overview of what is happening over Sure, the momentum has sprung, that is for sure.

When earlier this year they made the big announcement that the state of Michigan was going to be supporting a lot of the infrastructure improvements, committing the $152 million, that, that was great. Actually, I got to attend the signing of that bill. The governor was at the Mackinac Policy Conference on the porch. A lot of the supporters were there surrounding this monumental event. Not every day that A state says, you know what, we're committed and we're going to put some money, put some skin in the game here. So that happened. That was back in May. And since then, it really has just been go time. We're working really closely with the leadership team over at the base, as well as with the Michigan National Guard, ensuring that whatever we can do to help make sure that these projects get executed and then they get executed on time. Our big mission has been trying to incorporate that whole industry supply chain component of it. So pulling together our partners that are working on these industry days, we've hosted 2 very successful industry days where, you know, just the sheer number of businesses that are interested in pursuing opportunities. The total infrastructure project is about 30 different projects. And, you know, as those projects roll out, whether they are using federal dollars, state dollars, or even county dollars, We are hosting these industry days, and we're really trying to navigate our marketing so that we're hitting the right kind of company that can go after these opportunities, whether they want to go in as a prime contractor or a subcontractor to the prime. A lot of infrastructure construction type projects, but truly amazing seeing that momentum and getting the right companies in the room excited about what's coming to Selfridge.

So what we're talking about here is the new missions that Selfridge Air National Guard Base has brought on that are approved now by the federal government.

The F-15EX Eagle Strike. Yep.

And with that comes all kinds of things, like the hangars are not big enough. The hangars actually need to be rebuilt and/or expanded. So I know we have a giant new hangar that's getting built. I watch it every day as I drive by the base. I get to see the progress on it. And the runway itself, the runway is not long enough, so the runway has to be extended. So when Vicki's talking about construction, it's every layer of construction to include the roadways, the electricity that has to go around the roadways, the drainage, and even the environmental impact that this construction is having on the local area, because we also have bald eagles that have taken to nesting over in that particular portion of our city.

Isn't that a fun element to have to consider when we There's so many layers to it, and I appreciate the subject matter experts who understand what does your construction projects involve and getting down to even just the permitting. So the one project that the county really has a little bit more control over is actually the part of the runway extension that goes beyond just Selfridge proper. We're calling this the off-base project. This is the William P. Rosso. There was actually a bid, an open bid process that went out. We brought in our Department of Roads and our Public Works. They talked specifics to the project. They released that bid. There was, you know, several that had responded, and it was awarded actually to a local contractor. So Dan's Excavating in Shelby Township is the awardee for that particular project. That one gets bundled. So it is the William P. Russell extension project as well as a drain project tied into one. Dan's Excavating being the prime on that one. We're now like wanting to have a conversation with Dan saying, all right, how are you guys doing with your subcontracting plan? Are you looking for any of those local guys that can help ensure that we keep this project on time and on budget? Because all of this is so very time sensitive. But, you know, we're going to see some Some will— I was gonna say the orange barrels come out soon. There is a lot of information. I know we actually had quite a bit of public inquiry, you know, what does it mean for those that travel that west to eastbound on William P. Rosso to get to Jefferson?

Yeah.

How does that change their commute? All of that information we are posting on the website. So suffragemissionnext.com is where they can find all that up-to-date information and any, any news, um, articles, updates, any bid opportunities such as this one, we do post to that website.

It is great to consider that we're not talking about a plot of land that is new development. We're talking about an existing base that has been an integral part of this community for decades. It's called Selfridge. The Wright brothers were some of the initial founders of the area. And we have communities, we have neighborhoods. I live in one of the neighborhoods that's affected by this infrastructure change. And it is wonderful to hear that the county is taking all of that into consideration and making a formal way to keep us up to date so that we know when these closures happen. For those that are not familiar with the area, we have a lot of rivers. We have a lot of little inlets of water. We have some small bridges that you have to go across depending on which neighborhood you're in.

Mm-hmm.

And all of that is affected by these, you know, huge construction trucks that are heading down to the base because they're loaded up with asphalt and concrete and whatever else needs to get poured in for these projects.

And then to that, Shelly, it was interesting because when they were scoping out the design of the runway extension, the drain project actually cost more than the road project. And so that was a hack because we have to work around some of these, you know, natural inlets and ensuring that that road has the stable ground in order to maintain the weight of Just traffic alone.

Yeah. One thing that I learned at the first infrastructure day that the county hosted was the issue related to nesting birds and how you have to have a certain type of runway easement put down so that the natural nesting birds, like your Canadian geese, aren't attracted to being in that area because that is a flight risk. One of those birds pops up as a plane is headed off the runway, and that is a potential fatal issue.

Yeah. You know, Shelly, if you take me back a few years ago prior to this big announcement, we pulled together a stakeholder group which included a lot of our local municipalities, all those that surround the base, and we called it Selfridge Sustainability Study. And part of that was looking at mitigating risk. And one of the things that actually came up was bird migration. And so working with our community saying, you know, you probably don't want to be planting certain type of trees that will attract bird migration due to these concerns. And, you know, how do we get that information out there? It's a whole educational component on what can you and what's encouraged or discouraged as far as bird migration patterns.

The first infrastructure day that was hosted was a catch-all to make sure that the community felt comfortable and aware of the major projects that are heading into our area. And then the second infrastructure day The funnel was tightened and we were only looking at those interested in the road projects. Talk to me a little bit through the eyes of economic development. What's planned for the next Infrastructure Day and how do you organize these events so that the right people are in the right room?

Yeah, and I'm going to take it a step back, Shelley, because you actually nailed it on the head. So the first one was, let's just all talk about what's happening. And it takes me back to like the moment when I sat, I visited the leadership over at Selfridge Air National Guard Base. Brigadier General Volker was just coming in to her new role, and, you know, proposing this concept of Industry Days. And I'm like, I know you guys have projects. And she's like, well, actually, I want you to meet Chief Wilford. Chief Wilford is really her right hand in trying to organize just the sheer number of projects. And he's like, there's 30. A 30-some project. And I said, you do realize, like, nobody knows that. You guys are sitting on 30, so what's keeping you up at night is how are we going to do all 30 projects and still maintain an active base? And I said, well, let us take some of that off of you. And they were so welcoming to the idea of this industry day that we could perhaps maybe vet, making sure we've got the right type of businesses in the room. And so the first one, we actually hosted at the base. I think that was important. Making sure that people just had an understanding of what is to come, you know, as they were driving down to get to the dining hall that day. It'll look very different in the next few months to years. So for them to see that great turnout, like you said, the second one we said, you know, what's coming down the pipeline? We knew the dollars were there to move the project forward on the outside of base, that is the off-base project. So that's The roads, the William P. Russell and the Tucker and the Irwin Drain project.

See, that money was part of the signature from the Michigan governor that just signed in Mackinac.

And so we knew because those dollars were there, we could move forward, right? It was actually— there was tangible dollars to put out a full bid for that. What we're waiting on right now is, and it's sitting in the House at the federal legislature, For the additional funds to come through, right? So part of the bargain was the state come up with their $152 million. Right now, that number at the state, I think, is sitting a little under $500 million, maybe $452 million is what I heard. It's sitting in the state, in the House. It does now need to go to the Senate, and then it will go to the president for signature. That is when we're going to start seeing some of those projects actually on the base come to fruition, especially dollars that haven't been appropriated would come through under this bill. So that's a TBD. And then out there, we are having the conversations with our dear friends at Boeing saying, you know, we know you've got to build these aircraft. There are other actually platforms that Boeing works on that our supply chain is very familiar with as a supplier. Either at a Tier 2 or Tier 3 level. We want to ensure that Boeing knows this, that we've got the right defense supply chain manufacturers here that are AS9100 certified, they're ready to take on this work. So continuing that dialogue, that's one actually that gets me excited because we want to see more, more Boeing here in Macomb County, in the state. And then from that perspective of the Rose Project, looking at some of those smaller subcontract opportunities. So we're not leaving any stone unturned. You know, the ultimate goal, if there's $1 billion worth of infrastructure projects coming to Michigan and coming to Macomb County and coming to Selfridge, we want to keep those dollars local.

We do.

Keep the construction local. When you talk about economic impact and that spinoff, whether it's direct or indirect, we want to do our part to make sure that we've got our businesses attuned to it and that we're all working to build this all together.

You know, Vicki, I had an opportunity to connect with Brigadier General Kramer, who is with the Air National Guard at the highest level in the state of Michigan. And he mentioned that no matter where you go, no matter how high up you go, there will always be naysayers. There will always be people telling you, that you can't do something or you can't move forward. Where and how have you seen that as it relates to just the Selfridge mission?

Several times. So, I don't want to call them defeats because I think we learned every single time. You know, when we were pursuing the F-35s, and we didn't get it the first round, you know, it went elsewhere. I hate to say, maybe perhaps those decisions were made at a very different level. Maybe a more political level than we would've liked. The second time we went after F-35 bed down, this was under a foreign military sales project. We didn't get selected again. And this time I'm like, it doesn't make sense because comparing apples to apples, we outshine. So that was a little heartbreaking. When we heard the announcements on the A-10s that they were going to be decommissioned, It really left a void that perhaps maybe there will not be a fighting mission at Selfridge for these fighters, and grave concern. You know, we knew we were getting the refuelers, but without a fighter mission, really, then that puts into question the future of Selfridge. And so, you know, seeing these obstacles, right, there were challenges, and some of them were staring us dead in the face saying, you know, maybe perhaps We are going to be facing BRAC. And BRAC is pretty serious because once you look at what Selfridge brings to support the rest of the assets in the safe, it would be a domino effect.

And we're talking about Base Realignment and Closure is BRAC. And I've lived through that with—

I don't think that's a good word.

When I was down at Fort Benning in Georgia, there was always the threat of BRAC happening. It can kill a community. It has significant impact. Economically and also from a national defense position. We're talking about the A-10s being out of commission here as fighters, right? Those pilots, they're either retired or they have to learn how to fly an entirely different aircraft. And one piece of how it affects that one person in that one position, when we're thinking of projects like what's happening right now, it's almost overwhelming, Vicki. And I would be remiss to not share with you how amazing it is that you can keep your head at the 30,000-foot level and be able to track so many of these individual components and how they matter to the mission. How are you able to do that?

Surround myself with really good people, Shelly. The economic development practice, you know, we've got to be really good practitioners. But sometimes we have got to be the generalist, but know exactly who we need to bring to the table to see these things through. I think it's how do you build out your team where you have visionaries that can see that, that 30-foot view of what this needs to look like, but then you've got your doers that get aligned with that mission. And I think this alignment with the state, with Selfridge, with Macomb County, This is the best it's ever been. And usually, like, when you have moments like this, you look back and you're like, oh, those were the best days. I will tell you, we are living in the best days right now.

Gosh, that feels really good to hear that.

Yeah.

How about the importance of asking questions? I feel like you're such a powerhouse in every meeting that you're in because Vicki Rowinsky knows how to ask the right questions.

You look back at like who your mentors are, who do you emulate as far as leadership? And there actually was our previous economic development director, Jim Ahe, and he would sit in meetings and he'd be very quiet. Sometimes he'd bite his tongue. And at the very end, he would ask the most profound direct questions that we circled around. And I said, you know what, there's something to be said about not being the loudest voice in the room, Not taking up additional time to reiterate what's already been said, but really getting to that direct question. And really, it's, it's how do we get things done? It is.

And being a champion of resilience. As you mentioned, we've been told no over and over and over again on this particular project, and the mission has changed, right? On one hand, Selfridge Mission Next has always been and will always be Selfridge mission next. And on the other hand, when you get into the minutia of what that mission is, that's where we see all the creativity and the problem solving.

And the leadership, right, is just— when it— when you look at, um, the leadership vibe that General Volker brings to the table, her team, they're on it, right? They know exactly where she wants to go. She's got a history With the base, you know what I mean? Perhaps she's got that itch to be like, oh, if we could just do things differently. Well, now under her leadership, we can. The conversations that we're exploring with Selfridge is beyond just the fighter mission. It's looking at some of the land use adjacent, on property, and how do we transform this base beyond just a flying mission? And there's an interest there from an economic development perspective. There are businesses that want to look at that public-private partnership model saying, you know what, being closer, being on base actually makes business sense for us. We're doing work with the Department of War, we're NATO-friendly. It's just how do we create that on-ramp for these businesses to get access to that?

We do. And you mentioned the scope of leadership and being able to surround yourself with good people. The current leadership is exceedingly important because they're the button pushers. The past leadership is also important, and I'm seeing that when we have these infrastructure days and these opportunities to gather and talk about what this project looks like, or the 30 projects, what they look like, it's not just General Voeckler who's the current command. Now we're actually seeing Ralph Mahaman, who was 2 generals ago, and then we're seeing— Odie Slocum, who was also before as garrison command. And it's so wonderful to know that these are people that aren't just here making a change or doing good in the world and then leaving. It almost feels like the Bermuda Triangle of Macomb.

Once you come here, you kind of don't leave because it is such a great community. And that's what I love about, you know, our— just our entire ecosystem. You know, I've been attending the Base Community Council luncheons, and it's so great to see some of those familiar faces around the room that you mentioned, where there's a legacy, there's a history. I don't think that passion goes away. And I see this actually in a lot of my circles, especially those that have served in the military, where they have taken an oath, but that oath doesn't end when they retire. That oath continues beyond that, and they find It may— perhaps the uniform that they wear is different, where now they're wearing civilian clothes, but the passion for what they do, and ultimately it is protecting our freedoms and protecting the warfighter, that mission is so embedded in who they are and their core values, it doesn't go away.

You're right. And what I see is that passion is making its way into the business owners that maybe didn't serve or did not have the opportunity to wear the military uniform. They're able to pick up that flag of patriotism and national defense pride and carry that forward through the work that they're doing, whether it be through manufacturing or the road building. It's amazing to see that happen.

I know, Shelly. You know, it was really cool seeing everything leading up to the 250th anniversary of the United States and seeing some of these businesses that they support our defense industry. Mark Hackel, our county executive, he kind of coined this where we're protecting those that protect us. And so yes, you've got these layers, but to see these businesses really step up and celebrate and say, you know what, like, we're a very young country, we're only 250 years old, but for a day, let's all get together and celebrate the fact that we are a beautiful country. And there's certain aspects to all of that that comes back to who we are as Macomb County and our defense assets, whether it's the Detroit Arsenal, whether it's Air National Guard Base. It's that pride and patriotism as well.

So we're talking today with Vicki Rowinski, the head of economic development for Macomb County, Michigan. We are the home of Selfridge Air National Guard Base with $2+ billion of infrastructure happening over the next couple of years here. We will come right back and talk with a small business success story about SAPA.

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Mission Wildflower is You're listening to Hardcore and at Ease with certified business and life coach Shelly Rood. Now back to the show.

The opportunities for local businesses that are coming with these 30 projects, even outside of the 30 projects, there is significant opportunity in Macomb County for small to medium-sized businesses. We are sharing an incredible success story with one of our companies. Vicki, why don't you tell us a little bit more about what SAP has been up to? Sure.

And I love this story. It becomes one of our premier case studies of how do you work with a company for over a decade and get to see the results that we poured into this one. So just a little history with SAP. I know we've mentioned them in the past, and I think you've done some interviewing there as well. Spanish-based company, goes back to the 15th century, working on some major Army platforms programs. When SAPA was initially looking at their US conglomerate, they weren't thinking Michigan. They were looking at a state in some of the warmer states. So fortunately, we kind of interjected and were able to provide SAPA space here in Macomb County under our international landing zone. Where they could utilize that space for 6 months. They'd have the US address, and we would tie them to resources. So it was very turnkey. They needed to actually build out that US entity, which was a very heavy lift. You know, fast forward from that 6-month initial trial to 6 years, it really was a great opportunity for us to understand and get to know this company. They had to go through the government procurement cycle, which doesn't sometimes work at the same pace as other industries. But we knew this was coming down the pipeline, that once they had that Army contract in hand for this next-generation transmission, they were going to need a space, they were going to need workforce, that supply chain piece. So we were ready to go. They built their first building in Shelby Township that was about a 110,000-square-foot facility. I worked closely with our partners at Macomb Community College, Michigan Works!, State of Michigan, All hands on deck really supporting that initial growth. And when you are a business with Sapa who has like the history, however, they don't have the history in the United States, there's a lot of growing pains with that. But they were able to overcome them. But here we are today sitting on a second expansion for Sapa. And so now they're taking that 110,000-square-foot facility and they're going to build a new one right around 202,000 square feet. Looking at hiring 350 employees. This is a pretty significant win when we talk about going from a business attraction. It's always harder to attract a new business to your community than it is to retain them. So we started off with an attraction project, and then for the past couple of years, it's all been about retention. Providing an inroad for this business that needs to focus on their deliverables, Not necessarily the red tape that goes into pulling permits and, you know, finding us a land, a piece of land that works, or building a building, finding that workforce. So we become that arm to these businesses. And I think that's where, you know, we find our sweet spot in economic development is where we provide that concierge service. And so it's so hard to say like, oh, these are the 5 things we do as an economic development organization. But in reality, it's Here's our Rolodex, and this is how we'll get things done, even if it is the nudging of let's ensure that these— that the site plans are being reviewed, that there's no inconsistencies to what was being promised and our deadlines. Looking at from the workforce piece that we can align job fairs and work with our partners, bring in students from various colleges to see the opportunities that are going to be coming down the pipeline with SAPA, but building it now and all throughout. And I love it. I love that we can be the middleman between everything else they've got to do and just ensuring that they've got the infrastructure in place to continue to grow.

Now, SAPA is such an incredible success story because, as you mentioned, they were overseas. They still are. And when we think about them coming local into the United States, it's important that our listener understands that they're assembling the transmissions for the Army's XM30 program, General Dynamics' next-generation tank. I mean, those are the transmissions that they're working on. And we had the opportunity to interview Army Major General Darren Werner, and he joined as the president of the United States SAPA division back in March of 2024. The company then just had 13 employees and they had one building. And getting them into the United States, he came on board and he told us specifically so that he could grow the company so that they could handle and test transmissions here in the United States. I mean, that really is a testament to the American dream and what somebody can do once they're committed to national defense.

Absolutely. History is being made, and this is a transmission, right? At the end of the day, it's something that goes into a much larger system. However, the trajectory, looking at future warfare and, you know, the future-focused mission of our Department of Army, this is the transmission of the future. It is.

They are self-funded investments that help it to get there.

And very innovative. You know, like, they've got a technology that they've patented that really works I think it checks a lot of the boxes for our Department of Army, ensuring that, you know, with this XM-30 platform, that you're looking at a next-gen fighter, that it is integral that whatever goes into that, whatever goes into these systems, that we've got the right type of company, right type of technology in play that really continue to put the United States on the map as being a superpower in our defense strategy.

And the right leadership as well. Direct from Army Major General Werner, he said by 2030, the Army wanted advanced powertrain solutions for the platforms, and SAPA stepped in to help close that gap. It was something they recognized that they didn't have.

Ironically, you know, we get in front of the MEDC, they've got their Michigan Strategic Fund. So, any project where the state's going to support, You know, it does get through a panel where they, they look at every aspect of this project saying, you know, but for if we provide this incentive, could they potentially just move and choose a different state? And there's a really strong but for that. Absolutely. Other states want what SAPA has. They want that technology, they want that workforce, and we've got to incentivize that. So, you know, sitting in front of this Michigan Strategic Fund Board and hearing the scope of the project and those that are in support of it, including Macomb County, was great. It did get voted unanimously, so it got approved as a $5 million— we'll call it business development program. What that provides to this business is real cost to offset the construction of their facility. You know, they're looking at having to put in a substation. The piece of land that they have selected in Shelby Township which is strategic for them, has issues, some issues on that site. It's not necessarily the cleanest greenfield out there. So for them to take, you know, a piece of property, a parcel that requires a little bit more diligence, due diligence to ensure that that site gets cleaned up properly, but you're going to build a state-of-the-art facility that's going to employ, you know, 350 plus, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. Having that BDP in place is also critical. But I bring this up, Shelly, because we sit through the MSF, it gets approved, we do the high five. Later that day, we're down to business again. It is, let's make sure we've dotted all our i's, crossed our t's, making sure that site plan is ready to go. There's a timing with construction, full project management piece of it. And this is where I appreciate The engineers who understand and can speak this language and know the process assure these that what they're going to build is going to be maintained and there to last for a very long time.

You said it, maintained, because for Macomb County, this expansion means more jobs. It means more innovation. It means a front row seat in the next generation of military mobility. SAPA has active collaborations with industry giants like Caterpillar, Rolls-Royce, Cummins, to be able to bring and say that those companies and organizations are working with us locally here is unmatched as far as I'm concerned in any other defense industry out there.

It's the beauty of who they are, and that's part of our defense targeted industry attraction campaign is ensuring that we're attracting like-minded businesses that are looking at that growth. It's a success for us. We celebrate. But, you know, at the end of the day, we're still rolling up our sleeves, just getting it done. We are.

So, Vicki, through the eyes of somebody who knows small business and really understands large-scale growth, what is something that SAPA did and did well that contributed to their success that another small business could walk that same path?

Sure. And I think it is that, that connectivity to the community. SAPA has always been always one phone call away. Anytime that they ran into any challenge, they knew exactly how to get ahold of us. They've worked really closely with the community that they reside in, Shelby Township. Great working rapport, great working relationship with that local community. Also great relationship with the state of Michigan, ensuring, you know, that they're keeping in line with the promises of of their growth, that they were going to hire so many. And even at times when they hit stumbling blocks, I'm going to go back to COVID. I know we bring this up quite a bit, but nobody was hiring during that time. So there were some delays. Being transparent, having those conversations, and then, you know, always just being a phone call away.

And that's our economic update from Vicki Rowinski, head of economic development for Macomb County. She still believes Selfridge outshined the competition on that F-35 bid, no matter what the committee decided. That's earned judgment, refusing to bend just because the vote went the other way. Here's the reframe: a no from the highest authority in the room doesn't erase what you know. Your read on a situation doesn't require their agreement to stay true. Uphold The track record you already built instead of waiting for someone else to bless it. This week, I want you to name one decision that you're sitting on. Maybe you're waiting to move because you feel like you need someone else's permission. You might not actually need their authority, you just kind of want their permission. Figure out what that is for you right now, and then act on what you already know about it. The same way that Vicki already knew what those transmissions could do Before any committee voted. The beauty is that when you learn this reflex, when you learn to trust your own authority, waiting stops running the show. You start standing by the judgment that's already yours. Whatever that decision is for you this week, I want to encourage you to go ahead and act on it. Take that step before we talk again. I'm Shelly Rood. Thank you so very much for spending Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I know that you made it to the end of the episode. Not everybody does, so good for you. I hope to see you back next Tuesday. We're going to be back with more ground to cover on this idea of having our own lived authority. So until then, stay hardcore, be at ease, and trust the process.

You're listening to Hardcore and At Ease. Keep the conversation going at join. OthersOverSelf.com.