Challenging the Norms: Unlocking the Power of Mindset in Real Estate Investing

I learned all these things about how the mind works, and a lot of my learnings talked about perception. I think most people think what they see is how it is, and that's their reality, right? Their reality is reality. That's how they think about it. But I think the more you study psychology, the more you realize that actually the beliefs you hold inside of your mind shapes what you're able to see. For instance, on a very fundamental level, if you, if you believe you need money to buy real estate, then your whole world is shaped by that, right? Then you're gonna have to get a job and you have to earn a bunch of money and save it up. But if your belief is that you can use other people's money to buy real estate, or that you can put very little money down, or there's seller financing and you can if you have a belief inside of yourself that you've committed to, not only through visualization and affirmations and surrounding yourself with other people that share that belief with you, and you start to change the way you see literally what's in your world.

Welcome to the She's Got Assets Real Estate Investing Podcast. I'm the host, Shona Leppis. Follow along as we unpack and demystify real estate investment strategies through expert interviews and personal experience. From how to find off-market deals to creative financing to long-term and midterm rentals, we aim to educate and inspire others to gain financial freedom and generational wealth through real estate. And as always, please subscribe so you never miss an episode. We really appreciate reviews. It helps others find us and it just helps us get found. Welcome. Today I have a really special guest, Melissa Dorman. She is like a rockstar real estate investor and agent, and she has like an amazing inspirational story. And so I'm just really excited to dive in. We're going to dive into the power of mindset and seller financing, which I know everyone loves, and how to use sales psychology and being an entrepreneur and manifesting wealth. And I know she's got a lot of exciting projects in the works. So Melissa, thank you so much for joining us. You've got a really amazing story. I think you should tell if you're up for sharing it. I'd love to hear it.

Thank you so much, Shana, for having me on the show. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, so I have a funny story getting into real estate. I, I used to be a social worker and even before that I used to be a humanitarian. I used to live in a slum in Kolkata doing humanitarian work, helping women out of sex trafficking. And as I developed a more authentic sense of self, um, I, I started to recognize that I was worthy of having a nice lifestyle. And, and back in the day, about 7, 8 years ago, actually about 10 years ago, my dad started getting ill with Alzheimer's. And I was a social worker at the time. I was helping other people, but I wasn't able to help my own family. And that was a big moment for me as I realized my family struggling to find a caretaker for my dad. That's about $7,000 a month for somebody with home care, full-time home care for Alzheimer's. And so, as a social worker, that was more than I was even making a month. So, there was no way I was going to be able to contribute to that. And my family was like most middle-class Americans, really underprepared for retirement. And so, that was when the light bulb turned on for me. And at the time, I was working in LA County Jail. And so, I started studying real estate in between clients. I was doing intakes and helping inmates with mental health services, and there was a lot of downtime in jail. So I just really utilized it. I read books and listened to podcasts, and I just self-educated about 20 hours a week just trying to understand how does money work, how do you invest, how to become a real estate investor. And I'd read Rich Dad Poor Dad, which is a book that a lot of investors have read, and that was really a changing moment for me, and I realized I want to get into real estate. About 20 hours a week, a year of learning, intentional learning. I eventually decided to move up to Portland, Oregon. It was a little bit easier market. I was living in LA before, that's where I grew up and moved up here and I immediately started sending out some direct mail and I sent out about 300 letters and to duplex owners and ended up getting some callbacks and negotiating my first duplex deal and I was really excited. I didn't really know anything. I didn't even know how like escrow works. I'd never bought a home before. I was asking all the— I was new to Portland, so I was trying to make friends and meet other investors and I was asking their help. What do I do? How do I deposit earnest money? All that thing. And so yeah, it was quite an adventure. And really the light bulb moment for me again was when it appraised for $50,000 than I was paying for it. You know, it had, it came with a bunch of equity and the seller was really thrilled that they lived out of state. They, they were a realtor helping their family and they had made a lot of money in, in the few years that they owned it. They were happy to give me a little bit of equity for taking it off their hands. So it was a big win and it ended up really helping me understand the power of real estate. And so I'd spent about 30 hours working on that one transaction and I would've made as much as a social worker makes in a year. And that's when I realized I, I wanted to switch careers. And right about that time, I just closed on my duplex and, and my dad, I couldn't help him through that process. I was just too late to help my dad. I was not too late to help myself and to help the rest of my family. And so my dad passed away just a couple months after I bought that duplex. But what ended up happening is watching him work. He was the hardest working man I, I ever knew, working 6, 7 days a week. He was in construction, he was a roofer, and he was a superintendent of a roofing company for a long time, but he had nothing to show for it. And when he passed away, looking at how hard he had worked his whole life with nothing in the end to show for it, I just couldn't clock back into work again. He passed away and I just didn't go back as a social worker. And that was the beginning of my real estate journey, really. I, I jumped all in. It was very crazy. I do not recommend this path. Nobody do this. But I had about $16,000 in my checking account and I had a whole lot of grit and a lot of energy and, and a lot of ambition. And that's really what got me started in real estate.

Yeah, that is, that's so cool. There's so many things to unpack. I don't even know where to start with that, but I think a couple things that you said, I think that we just, I hear this like, oh, investors, you need all this money. You just, you just inherit 100 doors somehow. And it's just like this magical thing that happens. And I think the fact that you took the time and took a year of education, I think that's really important and you just digested it. And I think you have to do that. You don't just go out there and find a flip and make $100K. Like this doesn't So I just, that's impressive. And you have to do that, right? Because a bad deal is worse than a good deal. So let's, do you just, in your off time, just books, internet? Was there any like any tips you can give someone that's maybe getting started?

And yeah, great question. Listening to podcasts like this is really important. I basically went through all of the podcasts of BiggerPockets, which was several hundred at the time. Wow. Start to finish. I took And then I read, if you go on Amazon or something and you write in real estate books, pretty much the top 50 books, I just went one on one and I took notes and I would even do these little classes for my friends so I could retain it. Like I was just doing everything I could to learn. And I think given my therapeutic— I was a therapist and social worker. And so I had all this training on psychology and it was really magnificent to be able to apply all of that learning in this context. How do you stretch and grow as a human being? Well, you surround yourself with other amazing human beings and it starts to change your perception of what's possible for your life. And you, you do affirmations, you do visualization exercises, you do things to start to change the brain chemistry and give yourself a new perspective on the world. And it really opens your eyes to, to what's possible. So it was just a great process of, of self-development at those early years.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in one of those classes.

That's so cool.

But it's so true when you teach something like the SOS thing, I can explain that pretty easily now. But when I first learned it, I, it's, I just, I was like fumbling and now I get out a salt and pepper shaker and I'm like, and this happens, you know? But I, another thing I really wanna unpack I think is like that it's okay to have wealth and you can actually do more good with wealth and you can help people. I think like I used to be this, I was a landlord and I was so, I was ashamed of it. I was like, we bought them slowly and very strategically, but I was just a little embarrassed to be a landlord. I kept— not that long ago. So how do you own that and realize that you can do a lot of good with it and you're not doing anyone any good when you're living below your means?

That is such a great question. I get that question a lot. I think especially in Portland, we live in a very progressive community and the imagination for what you can do with capitalism or the imagination for how you can be as a landlord is so limited and it's been so polarized. Stigmatized in the political community of Portland. It's been turned into such an evil thing. And one thing that's really great, I like to think about it this way. So I'm a queer person, and if you look at society and you look at the way that neighborhoods transform or the way that museums are built, or queer people, we take things that are ugly and we make it beautiful. And so for me, it was like, I don't have to be a bad landlord. I can be a really caring really caring, supportive provider of housing to my tenants. And so that's how I approach it. I get them welcome gifts when they first, when they first move in, I get them Christmas gifts. I care about their lives. Something big comes up and they need to break their lease and it's a legitimate reason. I'm happy to make accommodations. I've helped them buy houses so they can incentivize my tenants when they get, when they're financially ready to buy a home. I don't charge them a fee to break their lease. I actually want to help them find that next home. I think there's just a way of doing things. It's not black and white. There's a way of being a, a good provider of housing, and we need good providers of housing. If we demonize landlords, then what ends up happening is big hedge funds or out-of-state or out-of-country investors become the purchasers of our real estate in Portland, and they become the ones that are, are calling all the rules and, and doing all the things. But I want that to be local people. I want it to be our community that owns this real estate and who takes care of one another. And so I think it's really pertinent to reimagine what can be possible with wealth and as a landlord.

I love that. I've taken that same approach, right? I think we need more good people and you reframing it as I'm providing quality stylish housing and that's a need. And if you get some corporate, they don't have any humanity. No, it's like, um, but it's, yeah, it's so polarizing though. There's just such Even the term landlord sounds so, right? Like it's like I'm lording over you, but I'm— would you call yourself a landlord? I struggle with that a little bit, honestly. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd say property manager. And even when I first introduce, tenant gets approved, I say, I'm so excited to serve you as your property manager. Like I'm here for a service. That's the mind frame I, I give people. And it doesn't mean that I'm a pushover. I, I also believe in accountability. A lot of my tenants are in their early 20s, they're learning responsibility. And so I'm there with that give and take. You're not living at home anymore. You do have to take care of the property, but I get it. You're a day or two late on your rent. Let's work on it. It's okay. I'm not going to, I'm not going to cause a lot of problems in your life. I want to work with you and get you to a different level of responsibility. And so yeah, I think there's just a way to, it's a people business. It's not just about money. It's a people business. And how do we provide a service to our community?

That is so true. Yeah. I've joked with my husband that I'm providing like Rental 101 because I have these kids that have never rented and I'm like, okay, that's And they're so earnest. I'm like, oh, I'm your first landlord.

Yeah.

Or housing provider.

Can you come to my windows? I'm like, no, that's not the service I'm providing. But if it breaks, let me know.

Totally. Yeah. No, I really want to change the— I guess it's a little bit of a sidetrack, but I think part of investing is it's an asset and it needs to produce income. And there you are, a housing provider, and you have to change your— everyone thinks the toilet blows up at 2 in the morning. It's never happened and all, and they, people trash your place. That's never happened. I'm curious what your experience has been on that note.

Yeah. Yeah. So in Portland, I've been a big advocate with my clients as a realtor and also for my own portfolio. I really tried to buy what's called B-class properties. And so for those, you know, people listening who don't understand, A-class would be like downtown, really expensive, overappreciated already. It's not going to cash flow. B-class is a step down from that. So you have really decent buildings that have been well taken care of, maybe aren't in the heart of the city, but a little bit on the outside. And you get to attract a tenant who cares about their credit score, cares about how they take care of the property. If you go down that scale maybe a little further out, C-class tenant, maybe they have a little bit more housing instability, maybe more job instability, so on and so forth. And so what I focused on, because I don't want to have that animosity with my tenant, I've focused on B-class tenants. So those are people who care about their credit score. They're really excited to move into their own home one day, usually And then the property itself is usually in decent shape. There's not a lot of delayed, deferred maintenance. And so I'm keeping up on that and keeping the property in good shape as well. And I've found in that class of property and the, the type of tenants that it attracts, they're not going to destroy the place. And I think it's really important as a landlord to keep it looking really beautiful. When places look beautiful, people want to take care of it. They have a pride, pride of ownership. And so on turnovers, or when I first buy a property, I really spend a lot of time just making it look like a great home. And so they I want to— it's a service, right? I want to make sure they're living in a place that they're proud of, and then in return, they're gonna, they're gonna have pride and ownership in living there as well. I've had an excellent experience in Portland. Unfortunately, I could also buy a 20-unit apartment complex in Ohio right in the beginning of COVID I thought it'd be a great idea to diversify and buy out of state, and the numbers look so good. So good. And what ended up happening, it was a, it was a B-class neighborhood. So I was thinking same model, right? Same model except for the units were mostly one bedroom, one bath. And so what ends up happening is you have, again, a very transient renter who maybe doesn't care so much about the property. This is not their forever apartment and they might have more job instability and all those sorts of things. And so I, I started to realize like, oh, I broke my own rule. And in that situation, I've had nothing but trouble, bedbugs and people arrested. In jail, not paying their rent, or just all sorts of troubles. And my poor property manager out there is more of a social worker than a property manager, I think, and just constantly trying to help people solve problems in their life. And that's great, I like to help solve problems, but not when it's my property, right? It's really stressful to find out those things. So if I could give any advice, be really careful the quality of the building that you're buying, unless that's your goal, to have that kind of interaction with your tenant. And for some people, that is— I, I have friends that own 300, 400 units in Seattle, and that is their the C-class buildings. They love working with people and getting them on their feet and learning responsibility. They love the joy of that mentorship prospect of those kind of properties. But for me, I don't want to do that.

I'm so with you. And I think your philosophy is exactly what I tell— if you have a quality property, people take care of it. You leave a welcome gift, you're like, you communicate well. It's just, yeah, and people are just so scared of being landlords and housing providers. You said a couple things. I want to, I know there's bigger stuff, but out of state, investing in your own backyard versus out of state, I feel like it's like this big question. I've been very local. I'm curious what your philosophy is on that.

I definitely learned a hard lesson. It was, it's a great building. We'll see how it sells. It's a commercial building. So if I get the rents up and I get it performing, it will change the amount of equity that I have in it. And so it could end up being a home run, but in terms of cash flow, It has not because it's always having this, that, and the other problem. I think one of the things I learned is when you're in your own market, you know the nuances, right? And so in Ohio, which is where my other property is, you're responsible for air conditioning. And I did not understand that. It's too hot. And so landlords are legally obligated to make sure that every tenant has air conditioning. So when I bought that building, it had 20 5-ton AC units, which if you've ever purchased one of those, uh, they used to be about $3,000. Now they're about $5,000 to $7,000. And you do that math and it gets really expensive really fast. And I remember we had a big heat wave in Portland. It was like the paint was peeling off of people's walls. Super hot here. Everybody's freaking out. And meanwhile, I had 5 ACs go out in Ohio and I don't even have an air conditioner. I was in Portland. I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm buying almost $25,000 worth of air conditioning units for people who are literally paying me $500 a month in rent. You do that math and it just never— yeah, it was painful. And wow. So I realized you just don't know what you don't know. And I was thinking, ah, whatever. When I bought it, oh, they're older AC units. It's not a really big deal. Whatever. When they go out, they'll go out and I won't replace them. But you, when you don't know what you don't know, it can be quite expensive buying out of state.

Yeah. So I, I know, I think there's this allure of it cuz it's the deals are so cheap, but then I, I don't know, I've just always been like, I like to have hands-on.

Yeah. And I think like something that I talk with my clients about, because I'm a broker by day and I'm helping people buy investment real estate primarily. And that is often the question, like, but my money can go so far if I invested out of state. And I go, okay, let's just like play that out. So let's say you, you buy a few houses out of state and they cash flow $1,000 a month and they're worth about $100,000. And that's so exciting because that's the 1% rule. And you're like, wow, this is killer. So at the end of the year, you've made $12,000. That's super exciting. Probably not much. In appreciation, probably not much. Let's call it $15,000. But if you took that same amount and you invested in our local market, and let's say you put that $20,000 down or $50,000 down to, to buy a duplex, well, that duplex is going to appreciate— oops— a $500,000 duplex in one year, even at a minimum of 5%. You got $25K right there. You've doubled in one year what you would've made out of state. And while it's not in cash flow and it's in appreciation, it is a much better investment over long term because My philosophy has been build as much equity as you can in properties. Make sure that they cash flow so you don't have to feed it each month, cuz that can be dangerous, but let them grow and then trade that money in later for cash flow. We're working age, we're okay, we're healthy, we can continue to make money, but our properties, wealth building, I think, as for me, overshadows and is more important than just cash flow on my rental properties.

Just mic drop. That's exactly what it's like. People get so caught up in this. So cheap. A couple things. I keep going down these rabbit holes, but I love, I think it is a really long game and like this, I think people think they're gonna buy a couple properties and retire. To me, it's like a very long-term game. This is my retirement plan. I don't know what your take on that is, but that feels to me what I'm Yeah, I usually tell people this is a get rich slow strategy.

And particularly a lot of things that I do with my clients is help them to buy small multifamilies, 2 to 4 units, live in one, rent out the others, and putting down like 3.5 to 5% down. And it's so accessible. I think people don't realize how accessible it is to become a property manager or to be an owner of a duplex, a triplex, that sort of thing. And The numbers aren't good the first year. They're just not. They're like negative $500 or negative $1,000. And you're like, why did I put all this money into— not make any money back? But honestly, it's just a power. It's the power of leverage, right? You put very little down. If you put more down, it would cash flow. But what I tell people is you got to think about the long term, right? You're going to have to live somewhere. And if you go rent a place, that's just money literally going in the trash every month. $2,000 is just gone.

Just poof, right?

It just kills me. So like, yes, you're negative $1,000 a month and that's annoying. And maybe it's a little bit more expensive than it would've been if you just lived in an apartment for a year. But on year 2, year 3, okay, now it's paying for itself. You can move out. Now it's an asset that, that is fully contained and self-sustainable. And just like the money in your 401(k) or whatever, it's growing while you sleep. And like just setting up, I try to encourage people just buy one small multifamily a year if you can, maybe two every two years. If you, it takes a while to save up, it's okay. Whatever the frequency is that you can do it, just keep doing it and don't, don't worry too much about market timing or it's just like, just keep buying. Like if you can make it work, just keep buying. And after you do it 5, 6, 7 times, then now you can retire because you look back and you go, wow, I have a lot of equity on the one that I bought the first time and the one I bought the second time. And I can start to trade those chips for cash flow, maybe doing syndication deals or, or whatever. You can start to trade that equity for cash flow.

Yeah, the power of equity, man, is— I love— you just said something I wanted to unpack. Yeah, I think that people, they don't understand that power of equity. And you live in a house, you probably bought it 10 years ago, the amount of equity you're sitting on. So if you can just unpack that more, because I think people don't really appreciate how the monopoly, the real-life Monopoly game this is.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes, one of the things that I've done and why I was able to retire in about 6 years is I saw it as in this regard. So I just wanted every property to be able to pay for themselves as quickly as they could. So I wasn't feeding them money. So I'd live in them or I'd negotiate seller financing or whatever I had to do to get it cash flowing. And then as quickly as I could do the next one, I would do the next one, whether it was 6 months, a year, 2 years, whatever. And they just kept growing and they just kept growing. And then what I could do, As they start to have significant equity, $200,000, $300,000. Again, I was just putting like my first duplex, I put $16,000 down and I sold that last year and got out $200,000. And that was after holding it for 5 years. So just like that kind of math, right? $16,000 turned into $200,000. And what I could do is take that chunk of $200,000 and I invested it into a syndication deal because I wanted to become more passive. I didn't want to manage as many rental doors. And so that $200,000 now at even a minimum of 10%, right? That's, that's $20K a year. That's $20K a year for the rest of my life.

Yeah.

And that was just, so I turned $16,000 into $20,000 for the rest of my life. And that's been my strategy, build equity and trade it for cash flow. And when I say trade it for cash flow, I'm talking about as an accredited investor. So somebody who makes $200,000 as a single person or $300,000 as a couple, or they have a million of net worth, or equity if you want to think about it like that way. You can participate in these private debt and equity funds, which means that they're either lending money or they're collectively buying properties together. And so we're just getting together and doing projects, big projects together, and being able to invest in those kind of passive deals is where I get my cash flow. And so I'm not, again, I'm not too worried about it cash flowing from like a, from like the start. I'm more concerned with, is this an asset that's going to appreciate really well and is it going to give me the opportunity to trade for cash flow later when I don't want work.

And that is actually— and that's truly passive, right? Because being a landlord, rental, that's not passive. I'm sorry, it's air quotes. Things break, tenants move out. Yeah, I love the trading equity for cash flow. That's very strategic. And I think again, it speaks to like buying in a high— a more appreciating market in your own backyard versus a cheap market. You can't do that game that you just did.

No, not at all. So people totally miss that too. They, they think, oh, just cash flow, I want that, I want that $12,000 a year, I have the 1% rule. Okay, we'll see you in 10 years. Guess how much my property will be worth? Hundreds of thousands more. And yours is going to be maybe $10,000 more and nothing, nothing.

And then you're dealing with the remote and yeah, it's just I, yeah, the private, I guess that's probably more advanced for this audience, but that's really interesting that that's out there. That is that something you have to apply and be accredited for those kind of strategies, those funds?

Yeah, it's, it, it's, it sounds like you go through a test process or something, but really it's just a letter from your CPA or just showing them tax returns. And it's really like a government rule. The government just wants to make sure that people are educated before they participate. In these kind of opportunities, because if they don't understand what they're getting into, they can have a lot of damage. And so, yeah, for some reason the government thinks if you have a lot of money, you know what you're doing with money, which is not necessarily true. Okay. Very, that's the bar. You have to have that $200,000 or $300,000 a year.

Totally. Okay. So I think someone coming and listening to this, they'd be like, oh my God, she's just killing it. She's so smart. But I want to go back to the beginning. You took like massive action. You jumped in. You have to just, you have to be like, it's like calculated risk, but the fact that you bought that first duplex, you figured out escrow, you asked, you weren't afraid to ask the silly questions. So I think that's really important. And you built this slowly, but very strategically. So I just want to emphasize action, right? In my mind, that's what you did.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's great to read books. It's great to listen to podcasts, but I think where most people get caught up is they want want to know everything before they take a step, and they get this paralysis analysis mindset. And I think what's important is to get a broad understanding. I spent a year— I spent a year studying 20 hours a week. It wasn't like I just jumped in with nothing, but I had enough knowledge to feel comfortable with the process. And then my secondary buffer or protection or safety net was really networking, and I just networked so hard when I first got to Portland. Every week I was going to some sort of real estate meeting and I was picking up 2 or 3 people and taking them to lunch and asking them all about their business, how they succeeded, how they failed. And then I asked them, is there anything I can do to bring value to your business? So I could be somebody, a resource to their life and learn from them and vice versa. I said, hey, if I get a deal in my hand, would you be willing to look at it and give me your honest feedback? And most of them, people were very excited they're giving me advice and they're getting so much out of it when they see that I took action and they were very invested in me succeeding as well. And so I, I recommend have a community of other people who are more experienced than you keeping eyes on, on your progress and helping you along the way. It's crucial.

Yeah. And in my experience, I totally second that has been, I think people that are very successful, they have, they wanna give back, they want to what you're doing. You're taking the time. Like, you don't need to be on this podcast, but I know you're passionate. Like, very supportive. It's— there's enough— there's like an abundance kind of mentality, I feel. And there's— I think people are afraid to ask those really simple questions, but you have to just be out there and ask that and network. So yeah, it's really good advice.

Yeah.

The other thing I think that, I know I've heard you speak, so I know that you're a big believer in kind of the power of mindset and having a vision. And I know that you did a lot of groundwork before you even got your first property. So I love to hear that. And I think that could be really valuable for people here to hear.

Oh yeah, absolutely. So like I was saying, I was, I came from a psychology background, social worker. I learned, um, all these things about how the mind works and, uh, a lot of my learnings, uh, talked about perception. I think most people think what they see is how it is, and that's their reality, right? Their reality is reality. That's how they think about it. But I think the more you study psychology, the more you realize that actually the beliefs you hold inside of your mind shapes what you're able to see. For instance, on a very fundamental level, if you If you believe you need money to buy real estate, then your whole world is shaped by that, right? Then you're going to have to get a job and you have to earn a bunch of money and save it up. And but if your belief is that you can use other people's money to buy real estate or that you can put very little money down or there's seller financing and you can— if you have a belief inside of yourself that you've committed to not only through visualization and affirmations and surrounding yourself with other people that share that belief with you, and you start to change the way you see literally what's in your world. And like a really clear example of this for my life, and I talk about this often in my speeches, but I for 6 months would repeat every single morning, I am going to buy an off-market property seller financed with very little money out of pocket. And I was just dedicated to that. Every single day I'd wake up and I'd say that to myself alongside a few other affirmations, of course. But for 6 months I was like, this is going to happen. And I didn't have any money. It's very I didn't have any money to buy this property, but I was determined because I believed in my heart that you do not need money to buy property. And sure enough, 6 months down the road of doing this daily practice, I got a call from a friend of mine, a colleague that I'd met, and I was doing pre-foreclosure deals and accidentally stumbled across him when I was cold calling to be the attorney of a guy who was dead, who I didn't know was dead. So it was a bit of an awkward conversation, right? And I'm like, hey, I'm looking for so-and-so. And they're like, I think he's dead. And I'm like, Whoops. Sorry about that. Meanwhile, and so it turned out he was a bankruptcy attorney and I was in pre-foreclosure helping people out of that situation. And so the overlap between foreclosure and bankruptcy is pretty high. So we had a lot in common and we met up and a few months into the relationship, he asked me to do an evaluation on his triplex that he had owned. And as he, you know, sent me a text and I looked it up and I saw that he had owned it for 20 years and I was like, oh.

This is the one.

This is the one. And the only reason that I had that thought is for 6 months I had pounded into my head that there is going to be this opportunity that will arise. And so if I had not done that work and laying that groundwork, that moment would have passed like any other realtor. They would have saw the property, done the CMA, listed the property, and sold it to somebody else, and they would have made their $10,000 or $15,000 and felt good about themselves. But I saw the opportunity there. And so I walked into that experience with that energy and that vibration inside of me. I'm very woo-woo. Sorry. Me too. Very successful. So sorry, not sorry. Let me share what works. This is what works. I walked in with this energy about me that I didn't even need to ask him. At the end of the walkthrough, he turned to me and he said, I'd really like to sell this seller finance to somebody. And I just had to say, would you like to sell it to me? And that was it. And we went and sat down and we ironed out the details. And his name's Kelly and his wife Susan. And we have partnered on so many deals since that point. And we have a beautiful relationship. He's like a father to me now. And I've created an annuity for their retirement, right? This is a win-win. This isn't that I found some old person and swindled them out of their equity. And it's just, that is not the type of real estate I do, and that is not the imagination that I have for wealth and building wealth. And it was just this, a prime example of changing my belief first to change my perspective, to allow the opportunities to flow into my life and for me to be able to receive them. And I think if people don't spend time on the changing your belief, your relationship with money, If you don't, if you don't work on those core aspects of yourself, you won't be able to see the opportunities when they arise.

That is a beautiful example. And I'm super woo-woo. It's all up here. There's that whole reticular activating system when you're looking for something. Like, it's crazy how I can't go 2 feet without seeing a fixer.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, no, I, there was, I had this lightbulb moment. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about seller financing. I think I thought it was like this unicorn that was pink and shiny and sparkles and like, would never happen. And you meet— I've gotten voicemails, I will only sell an owner carry. And I'm like, holy shit, that's like, you're right. Right. But people just, it's, and you're not shoehorning it into them. It's really a win-win. So I'm, if you can just speak to that, how it truly is a benefit to everyone, not just us as investors.

Yeah. I think the only, the only entity that doesn't get served in a seller finance deal are big banks, big finance.

Yes.

Those hundreds of thousands of dollars that would've gone into Chase Bank go into the pockets to line our community members. And I think with interest rates where they're at right now, I've done 2 of them this summer for my clients. Like, where interest rates are at right now, it is the opportunity for our whole nation to rethink how do we buy property and how do we do it in a way that mutually benefits. And so what's great about seller financing is everything is negotiable. Everything. And put in the right hands, put in an ethical, kind-hearted, community-oriented person's hands, this is a beautiful tool to create an annuity for the person selling because they have all this equity there. They sold it, they would lose about 30-40% to taxes. They've owned it for a long time. And so then let's say in my example with that triplex, so if Kelly had sold that on market with me, he would have sold it for about maybe $750,000. He would have walked away with about 550 after taxes, and then you have to go invest that 550 in something else, and it wouldn't be a secured property. It'd probably be a bond or a stock or something like that. And at the end of the day, he would be losing, right? He would be probably getting a much lower interest rate than I was paying him, and he would have had to pay all those taxes. And where seller financing does is it kind of spaces that out. It allows him to pay the taxes slowly over time at a lower rate, or or in our case, we did interest-only payments. And what's beautiful about an interest-only payment is the seller's not getting hit on those capital gains yet. And also I'm able to cash flow much better, which means I can take care of the tenants when the needs arise. So I'll, I'll say in that particular situation, the way that I structured it, which is a really fun example too, he had 2 tenants that had just moved out. And so it was only, it was a triplex and only had 1 tenant in. And so I asked him how much he needed for the down payment and he said 10%, which would've been about $75,000. I didn't have that, so I said, how much would you need to foreclose on me? That's what you would do, right? If I don't pay you, you're going to foreclose.

Wow.

Yeah, he said, oh, as an attorney, he knew that answer pretty well. He's like, it'd probably be about $15,000 after lost rent and all the procedures and all this stuff. And I said, great, how about I pay you that? If you don't get a payment, you can use my own money to foreclose on me. And he was like, oh, that's— yeah, sounds good to me. And so we started there and I still didn't have $15,000. Remember, I'm newly not a social worker. I'm just getting into real estate. I'm not making very much money yet. And so I phoned a friend down in LA and I said, hey, you have come to me for a lot of financial advice. You trust me, you know, I'm a responsible person. Would you lend me $10,000 just for one year? Just for one year? And I showed them the numbers and I said, I will have you paid off. You'll get pretty much most of the cash flow this first year and it'll go to you. And they said yes. So I just had to come up with about $7,000. Which I scraped up barely. And of that $7,000, so $2,000 was like the closing costs because you don't have to take a loan, you don't have to pay those $10,000 of underwriting fees and all that.

Really so much easier.

Yeah. So $2,000 for the closing costs and then $5,000 outta my own pocket. Again, I didn't have a lot of money, so I really needed to get that money back immediately. And so I asked, I asked Kelly and his wife, I said, hey, you have 2 vacant units. Would it be okay if I delay the first payment 2 months, just 2 months. And you can throw that interest on that tail end. You'll still get paid it. I'm not going to cheat you out of it, but could you give me 2 months to get these leased up? Because I'm not cash flowing. Why? How can I pay you? And they said, that sounds very reasonable. Again, everything's negotiable. We're custom tailoring this to your needs and my needs, and we're trying to make it fit. So he said yes. And so within those 2 months, I recouped $6,500 of that $7,000, and I was all in $500 on a triplex near Mississippi Avenue. And that is— and it cash flowed $500 to me from the get-go. And I paid $1,000 to those ladies who lent me money in LA, and everybody was winning. And I think when we're able to think strategically and creatively and we actually take into account the seller's needs with our needs, we can structure these deals to be so tailored and custom to everybody's needs and create a win-win situation.

That is just too— you just use all of the, all the things, and it was just like thinking out of the box and And when you think, when you run the numbers on what someone makes with carrying a note versus— it's just so much more and they should, they're the bank. It's just, that's amazing. Yeah. I, it's, but that goes back to mindset. If you thought, oh, I don't have 10%, I'm outta luck. But you did.

Yeah. If you have the belief that I need money to buy a property, then that transaction doesn't happen right there. It stops. But I had the belief to use other people's money, or I did not use, need to use very much of my own. And like Like my whole portfolio, I think is around $6 million right now. And I did the math like about a year ago and I spent like $180,000 altogether for my whole portfolio. And it's like, people think you need so much money to buy properties and it's really not that way. It's about thinking creatively, strategically, and solving people's problems. If you're just trying to solve your own problem and you're so motivated by your own interests, it comes through. People feel that energy and they feel like you're trying to get something out of them. But if you truly walk into the situation and you say, how do I solve this person's problem in a way that also solves my own, but their needs are more important than mine. When you do it that way, that energy comes through, it builds trust, it builds rapport, and it shapes the structure of a deal that is going to be mutually beneficial.

That is so true. I think people often come out of the gate leading with, oh, we do a sub-to, or all the buzzwords, and it's like, is that a good fit for someone? Do they— you just have to— if you understand, if you solve the seller and you're really crafting a proposal, then it— yeah, that's the beauty of off market. You're also an agent though. So how do you, how do you balance that? Like you're also an agent and you buy out. I think, well, I guess let me regroup this. So I'm, I'm teaching a course right now and I think all my properties were bought with an agent, right? Like I didn't know anything about anything. I didn't know how to, I didn't know what off market. And I'm thinking, and people are so like set on this crazy off market deal owner carry. And like you may never buy a property if you're waiting for that magical thing to happen. So I think working with an agent is actually really powerful, like an investor. I don't know if you like the term investor friendly, but I'd love to hear your kind of point Absolutely.

So I've bought some properties seller finance off market. I've bought some properties traditionally on market. I, I think there's deals to be had both ways. I bought one of my properties is a fourplex and I bought it, it was on the market 160 days, something like that, right? Everybody had seen it for months and I was like, this is the week I'm going to buy a property. That's what I told myself. This is the week I'm going to buy property. So I went through all of the properties and I saw this one and I started doing the math and I started thinking about it and I realized, oh, if you do this, that, and the other and get the tenants moved out and get the seller to pay for this, that, and the other. Like, I structured and put some seller financing in there, but it was on market with a second from the seller. I did all these things and it ended up being a really amazing deal for me. Cash flows $2,000 a month. I think I put all in $60,000 and then I cost segregated it. So I got all of that money back within 6 months. I named my LLC Freeplex because it's free.

Love that.

It was on market. And so like when people are like, oh, you can't find an on-market deal, I've found I've bought 2 really good off-market deals that cash flow great and it was a win with the seller. They were stoked, I was stoked, and it was just honestly, people were overlooking these opportunities and they exist. So having a broker who is an investor like me, I think is a huge asset. I hear people all the time, oh yeah, I'm working with my cousin or I'm working with this realtor or whatever. And I'm like, but are they an investor? Because the way that I see a property's gonna be through a very different lens than them. And they're not gonna understand landlord laws, tenant laws. It can be very litigious if they don't understand. The nuances of these things because they're very nuanced. And so I encourage people to do both. If you're sending letters off-market and trying to find a seller finance deal off-market, great. There's also, I've been just, I've just been contacting agents and being like, hey, I saw your listing's been sitting 2 months. Would you like to do a seller finance deal? I have 3 clients interested. And some of them say yes. And when they do, it's so exciting to be able to bring my clients that off-market, or it's an on-market opportunity, but it's seller finance structure. And so we're closing deals at 5% right now and the market's at 8 or 9. It's just the power of working with a realtor who understands these things.

I love that. So if you, so I have a lot of students and they love, they, they're, how do you find, clearly you're like the perfect example of an investor and an agent. What do you look for? How do you qualify someone if they can't work with you? What, what makes a good a good buyer, right? Like for, from your perspective, I know you don't want tire kickers, people waiting. I'm sure that you get, that's also right. So what's a good relationship or how to find that right agent?

Yeah. So when I'm working with clients, I tend to lead with honesty. I give them a really clear picture of what the market is and I try to scare them out of working with me. It's a really hot market and it's spring 2021. I'm like, all right, so work with me. We're gonna offer $100,000 to $150,000 over asking. We're gonna We're going to be probably releasing earnest money, all the scary things. And then at the end of the call, do you still want to work with me? Because I will get you a house, but this is what it takes. And I'm just so honest and blunt with people. And if they're yes, then I have their respect. I have their rapport. And I think with agents, oftentimes, and maybe what makes me such a successful agent is agents will often let the client lead. And that is a very scary thing. You can imagine as a client, they're maybe buying 1, 2, 3 properties in their whole lifetime. And you as the agent are like, what would you like? You think it's good. And when you're doing that, it's actually a disservice to the client because they don't know and they're coming to you looking for that leadership and that guidance. And when you keep putting that responsibility back on them, it's very stressful. And so I take that off of my client's hands. I'm like, hey, I'm your expert. I'm not going to make you do anything you don't want to do. I'm going to, I'm going to say when this property is not a good property to buy, but I'm also going to tell you when this is a good property to buy. And I'm also going to push back when you want 20 things out of the seller when we should really only be asking for 3. I'm here to guide you and get you into a property successfully. And in order to do that, you're going to need to trust me. And the reason you can trust me is I have hundreds of transactions that I've done and I supervised hundreds of transactions and I have a team and we're top team. I deserve your trust. You know, it's, it's, I'm not just coming here with nothing. And I think that's really crucial. And I rarely have to fire a client, but when clients are maybe overly anxious or they're giving me indicators It's not about their preference, but it starts to become about everything is a problem. Doing the inspections is too scary. Everything that came up in the inspections is too scary. Writing an offer that is going to get accepted is too scary. Like when everything's just too scary, that's usually when I have a conversation about, are you sure you're ready to buy right now? Because we're spinning our wheels and maybe you need to take a little time. And because I'm a therapist, I like to think about things in terms of content and process. So content Content is the words that come out of our mouths. If we were writing a transcript, you would see the words, right? But process is what's happening underneath those words. And that's what I'm always looking for, right? So if people are talking about, I don't know if I want to do an inspection, or they're trying to create narratives about the seller, oh, the seller's being greedy or whatever, I drop into process and I'm like, so you're feeling afraid right now. You're feeling afraid of buying this, right? Or you're feeling like you don't have enough money in your checking account if the furnace goes out. Let's get into what's actually underneath what that content is. And let's speak to that because if it's really that you're not ready to be a landlord, that's okay. I'm not here to pressure you to do that. But if you're like everybody else and that first time moving from being a tenant to a landlord is like, oh my gosh, I want to pull my hair out. I don't know if I can do this. Then let's have that conversation because I know what it's like to make that huge jump and it feels so big and so heavy and so hard. And you wonder if your friends are going to be friends with you afterwards. You wonder if your parents are going to have to let you have to move in with your parents because you're going to fail all these fears. So let's talk about those fears and let's talk about self-assuredness, because I think when people are— there's a psychological thing when we are scared and when we're fearful. Often what we pull for is certainty. We want control, right? We want control. And you'll see that happen in a transaction. I'm not going to budge and they're going to have to do this. And that's, you know, the way to deal with anxiety and uncertainty is not to control control. It is self-assuredness. It is affirming yourself and believing that you'll be able to handle the challenge as it comes up. That's how you deal with that anxiety. You cannot control people into appeasing you. You have to learn to trust yourself and to trust that when that problem comes up, you're going to be able to solve it. And so yeah, I do a lot of that. I often get back from my clients, they're like, I didn't expect to get a therapist out of this.

And I'm like, well, you're really uniquely qualified though, because it is really scary being the first time I house hacked way back, and I, I had some— I had people on Craigslist just living with me. I was just like, oh, and my plan B was like, I have an extra room, I'm gonna rent that out. I had this whole scenario of if I miss a mortgage payment. It never happened though, right?

It's good to have, and I encourage my clients, have a plan. Maybe it's cash flow. I do often do this in this market with interest rates. It's going to negative cash flow $1,000 a month. I don't know how many do that? I know how you're going to do that. You're going to put $15,000 into a savings account right now, and you're not going to touch it. And now you can sleep at night knowing every single month when there's that negative cash flow, for however long it takes, you have the money to pull from, and you don't need to worry. And they're like, oh, I'm like, yeah, see how that problem just got solved? I know it seems scary, but when you think about it, you have a plan. And most of the time, those clients will call me like 6 months later, and they're like, 2 of the tenants moved out, and I got rent up, and now it's cash flowing $500, and I 3 grand from that savings and I was so scared. I almost didn't buy it. And I'm like, I know it was just fear. And we always do that as humans. We go to the worst case scenario. That's where our brains go. And it's a protective feature. We, when we were running from tigers and bears, it was really important to think about the worst case scenario and plan. That's how we survived. But in reality, the worst case almost never happens. So it's important to plan for the worst case, but to recognize that it's probably not going to be they'll— the statistical outcome.

Exactly right. Yeah, no, having just that peace of mind. And I think with the rates, like, I've refinanced some. Usually you're going to do some kind of— you're not stuck in that. I think people think it's forever. It's not. I— that's—

yep.

Okay, I know we're getting— I, I covered a lot. See, just like this, the one thing we haven't touched on is being an entrepreneur and that kind of mindset. Cause I think it's a hustle and it's not easy. And sometimes you're like, what the hell am I doing? I just be like totally making this shit up. I don't know. When you have those days, what do you do? Is it like just seeing the vision or how do you get through that? Yeah.

I, yeah, big believer in community, especially right now. Transactions for brokers down 50% year over year. We are seeing, like, we are seeing 2008 was hard, but for realtors, this is actually a harder season because the transaction volume is much lower than we saw back then. We had housing prices fall, but there was plenty of transactions. And so right now it's really difficult. And what I'm doing and what I've continued to do is just turn to community, find other people that are at your similar level of success or maybe more and talking about it. And I think another really important aspect of this all the way through from what I was saying when I was first becoming an entrepreneur. And now something, a regular practice that I have is just creating awareness and detaching from what it means to be okay. I think we attach really big ideas like to be okay means I'm going to do X amount this year, or I'm going to be able to invest, or I'm going to— and understanding that it's okay if in 2023 you have to sell assets to make it through. It's okay if your first flip goes bad. It's okay if you have a difficult tenant and not thinking that this is going to ruin your happiness, but to recognize that this is just all part of the journey and to detach from that suffering. Because I think we cause a lot of our own suffering by telling ourselves that we will not be happy unless we will not be enough unless. And the more that we have that story in our mind, the more crippled we are to take the actions that we need to do to feel okay. Inside. And so I often will just go back to a meditation practice. I'll go back to the story I'm telling myself. What is the story I'm telling myself? Oh, if I need to sell an asset in 2023, I'm failed. That's not true. The fact that I have an asset means I succeeded. The whole point of the asset was to have a cushion for when life happened. This is life happening right now. 50% of my income is gone this year because I'm a realtor. You know what I mean? It's like understanding the big picture and understanding that it is okay and changing our definition of what it means to be okay is crucial to reduce our own suffering.

I love that. There's, that reminds me of that book, The Gap and the Gain. What are you measuring against? Because I think we're, I'm always in the gap and I'm, but if you measure what you've done or you look back where you've come from, there's a lot of gain there, right?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

So yeah, go ahead.

I was going to say, I'd love to do a little plug on my, the book that I'm about to—

Yeah. One more question though. And I, I was gonna get to that. I, you said something about everyone has to do their crappy first flip. It sucks. It's a learning experience. And I think people should just buy and not do that. So I'm curious what your take is, cause that's like my little soapbox. And then I want to really want to hear about your book.

Yeah. Yeah. So I, as often as possible, try to talk clients out of flipping. Flipping is an incredibly dangerous real estate activity. It's all over TV shows. It's very romanticized and the risk is extraordinarily high, especially for somebody who doesn't have a lot of experience. And even case in point, we had some major flipper clients of ours as realtors who were doing 20 deals a year, right? They're out of business. People who would do 20 successful flips in 2021, 2022, who were making hundreds of thousands of dollars in 2023 are out of business. And so that is like the perspective I try to give to clients that like, this is great in an upmarket, but in a downmarket or a neutral market, or even just one that's not appreciating as quickly, it's a very dangerous task. And so instead, what I try to encourage people is to do house hacking. You have to live somewhere anyways. The financing is going to be incredibly cheap. You can put less money down, so you're less out of pocket, and you can always just get roommates, you know, and it might feel uncomfortable, but like going back to detaching from who you think you should be or what was going to make you happy or whatever. If I can encourage people live so simply now so you can live like other people only wish that they could, right? I don't remember the exact quote, like, live, live small now so you can live big later in ways that people will never be able to do. And I did that. I lived on so little for so long, and people would be like, you own all these properties, what are you doing? And it's like, no, I kept my budget really small so that I could grow fast. And having roommates, instead of feeling like, oh, I'm such a loser, I'm having to have roommates, or whatever people tell themselves, be like, no, I'm doing this right. I'm having other people pay my a mortgage. I'm creating a path for myself for retirement. I'm taking care of myself in ways that my future self will thank me. And having that gift to ourselves and loving our future selves, I think, is really part of the process.

I love that. Okay, awesome. And you're— now that I know you have some exciting news, I want to hear all about it. So your book is coming out. I'm so excited.

Yeah, so this is actually the first time that I'm talking publicly about it.

Gosh, awesome.

I just started the process formally with a ghostwriter, and it should be out next year, knock on wood, if we keep pace. But the book is called Being Rich Is Gay, and it is my story as a queer person evolving my relationship with money, my relationship with myself, and becoming a more authentic human being, and the mindset shifts that I made along the way to do that. And so I'll be incorporating some new ways of thinking about capitalism and about entrepreneurship and real estate that kind of expand people's minds on what's possible and how they can make a difference in the world through building wealth and not despite of it or in spite of it. So it's going to be a very inspiring book. I think I'm very excited to bring it to the world and continue to give back. Like you said, it is so rewarding having gone through this and had so many people help me. It is so rewarding to be able to give back and share my perspective with the other people.

That title is just amazing.

Did you—

it's just on so many levels. I just have to call that out. Sorry.

Thank you so much.

I love it. I love that. And I know you have a really— we're getting close on time here, but just your story of being— you've gone through a lot and your personal transformation. Like, I saw you speak a couple years ago and I was like, oh my gosh, she's got her— she's just on it. And then I saw you a couple years later. I didn't recognize Is he? You cut your hair and I was like, oh damn. Um, anyway, I know we're wrapping up here, but I know you have an amazing story to tell. Everyone should buy this book. It's gonna be a game changer.

Oh yeah. Yeah. And thank you for bringing that up. That, that is a big part of my story is, uh, yeah, a big part of my story is that I learned in my early 20s that I was queer. And then even in my mid-30s, I finally took that big I'd been dressing very feminine since I was in high school. I was at my first job at Cinnabon and one of my coworkers mentioned, "Aren't you gay?" And I was like, "No way. Why would you think that? That's ridiculous." And they said, "Well, 'cause you're like a tomboy and you dress this way and you talk this way." And so I immediately told my closest girlfriends, I was like, "Teach me how to be a girl." And they taught me how to code switch. That's the term when you like present a different way to the world in order to be accepted into like like move along without friction. And, and so I learned to code switch and be a girl, like very girly girl, not super girly, but like decently girly girl for 20 years, 20 years. And when I reached financial freedom last year, my, my big gift to myself was to make that jump. And for me, it was like, I don't care if people don't want to work with me. I don't care if they treat me poorly or whatever. I just want to be my most authentic self. And I had all these fears of how I would lose business or how people would treat me poorly. And Oh my gosh, it was the opposite. Like, absolute opposite. Like, my authenticity just shines. And now I walk around. I like to joke. When I first cut my hair, I went to Bali for a month. And I— you're traveling and people just see you as a Westerner and they're excited to see you regardless because they're like, where are you from? And da da da. And so I didn't realize until I came back to the United States that I went from being like maybe like a 7 out of 10 on the cute scale to like maybe a 9 out of 10. And everybody started treating me so differently. And I think it was honest. Yeah, it was so funny. Like, I went to an event. One of my buyer agents was doing a client appreciation event, and there was probably 20 women there, and they were learning all about Botox or something, whatever their interest was. And I went there just to stop in and encourage them and all that stuff. And I leave, and my buyer agent's like, 2 of the women want your phone number. And I was like, what? This never happened in my whole life. Like, are you serious? And so it's just like amazing to recognize, like, being my most authentic self is the greatest gift that I can give this world. And it actually is what people most want to see. And I think it gives everybody else permission to be their most authentic self. So it's been great this past year just being myself.

I love that. And it's really scary though, when you cut out. That's, and that's a big really, but your energy, you just have a, you had a different, and I don't know you, but I— the times I met you, I was just like, wow, like very different vibe. Really very cool. I love— oh my gosh, I could talk for hours. Couple wrap-up questions, I promise. This has been so fun. So this is the big one, you can take it however you want. So top business or life advice you want to give someone to live life on their own terms?

Top advice advice. My dad gave me this one, and I really like it, and I apply it to so many aspects of my life. But he, he always had the mantra of work smarter, not harder. And I think that was a core belief of mine. I see a lot of entrepreneurs spin their wheels because they think they have to do everything, and they, they have this belief or mindset that you have to work hard to make money. And I would encourage everybody to restructure that belief and believe that money comes easily, and that money comes when you you think smart and when you add value to the world, that's when money comes. And so focus your energy on creating systems and creating opportunities and creating unique ways of bringing value to the world. And it does not necessarily take a lot of your time. And yeah, so I would encourage people to think about things through a smart lens versus working harder.

That is a real paradigm shift too, right? Like it's not time for money. That is, I love That. Okay, okay, next question is, Selena, what's your superpower and how have you used that in your life?

I think my superpower is understanding people's psychology. I think being a therapist, and also I grew up, my mom was mentally ill, and a lot of people would say, oh gosh, that's such a hard life, I'm so sorry you had to deal with that, and But the reality is, as I've grown to become more and more of an adult, I've recognized that my mom's mental illness actually prepared me to be very intuitive to other people's needs, wants, desires, thoughts, and helped me to understand people's psychology. And so I think my superpower is, uh, with my clients and with my friendships and with my loves and all that, is just to be able to understand their perspective and to speak to that and to help foster and meet their needs as humans. I think that's my superpower.

I love that. And it also speaks to what it could be an adversity or a thing. There's a learning, there's learning in most things. And I think sometimes we just need to— awesome. Okay. I think we covered this. Someone has clearly— I always ask like what book or podcast or resource— everyone needs to get your book, The Power of Being Gay. I like, I hope I get an early copy. You're a great reviewer.

Being rich is gay. Being rich is gay. I love it.

Yeah. And that's just, oh, it's so good. So cool. Any, but any other resources? I know just that maybe for people just getting in the industry or whatnot, I always like to ask.

Yeah, I think Rich Dad Poor Dad is a great book. When you pick it up, wipe off all of the griminess of any complex or derogatory ways of talking about the poor or anything. Just read through the lines, get the content, don't worry so much about the political stances in I think that's a powerful book. If you survey 100 real estate investors, about 95 of them will say that is the most important book I read. It is a total paradigm shift. And beyond that, BiggerPockets is a fantastic resource. It's free. Listen to all those podcasts, learn from other people's mistakes, learn what interests you and follow that. You don't have to— don't do 10 things, do one thing well. But BiggerPockets is a great place to explore and learn from, and then yeah, just stick and go on Amazon or whatever and look up whatever books are most relevant to real estate investing. There's tons of them. There's so many good ones. Yeah.

And it's, it doesn't, there's a lot of courses, but I think the message too is it's out there. You don't need to spend a, there's a lot of expensive courses and that's, and when you're at the right point, I think it's viable, but starting out, it's—

Yeah. Starting out. Yeah. Just, it's all very available.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's no secret knowledge. It's all out there. No.

Try to convince you to spend $10,000, $20,000 for the secret knowledge. Yeah.

And it's really not that secret.

You know, it's not secret. It's actually a simple math equation and it's not that hard.

Yeah. Okay. And last question, how can people like find, follow you, work with you, possibly all that good stuff?

Yeah, I'm on Instagram as Melissa Dormand. Being Rich Is Gay is gonna be coming out next year, so I'll start to build some content around that in the next few months. My company is Catalyst Group. That's the brokerage group that I co-own with my business partner Yasha. So Catalyst Group Northwest is our broker team. But yeah, Instagram, Facebook, Melissa Dorman, easy to to find.

Awesome. That wraps up. This has been like, this has been, I wanna say everything's my favorite, but this really has been like, yeah. Thank you so much. It's been really fun.

Oh, thank you so much for the opportunity. This is so lovely to spend this time together.

Yeah. All right.