Empowering Women Through Real Estate Investing and Entrepreneurship (all about house flipping)

based on my system of doing it. As long as they're in a location that has enough population and they're doing everything that they're supposed to be doing to ramp up that business, in 24 months they should be able to hit $1 million in revenue. And you can see that could change the trajectory of your being self-employed and, oh, being an entrepreneur. If you have that at the same time, you're also flipping and doing all the things.

Welcome to the She's Got Assets Real Estate Investment Podcast. I'm the host, Shona Leppis. Follow along as we unpack and demystify real estate investment strategies through expert interviews and personal experience. From how to find off-market deals to creative financing to long-term and midterm rentals, we aim to educate and inspire others to gain financial freedom and generational wealth through real estate. And as always, please subscribe so you never miss an episode. We really appreciate reviews. It helps others find us. and it just helps us get found. Welcome everyone to the She's Got Assets podcast. Today I have a super special guest. I have Gigi Kinsey on, is an active Christian, a wife, a mother of 3, and a grandmother. She's been an entrepreneur since 1998, owning multiple home improvement businesses, including a plumbing service company, interior design remodeling firm, and a real estate investing business. Gigi is committed to empowering women to join the world of entrepreneurship. I love that. Focusing on the industry of home improvement. To that end, she wrote the bestselling book, A Woman's Guide to House Whipping, in 2022. Gigi firmly believes that women can find success in every season of their lives. Her message is that women must take 100% responsibility for every aspect of their lives, taking back power over their own business, happiness, and walk with God. So Gigi, thank you so much for coming on. It's really a treat.

I am so excited to be here with you.

I always like to start out just a little bit about your story. I feel like it's always a twisty journey getting into real estate, right? So I'd love to start with that.

I will just say that I basically loved real estate from the time I was really young. At the same time that I enjoyed interior design and architecture and all those things, I was very interested in real estate. And so I built my first— designed and built my first home when I was 22 years old. And, and so that gave me a taste of getting into real estate that way. Bought various things throughout the years and sold them with no specialized knowledge, just knowing that it's always a good place to invest money is real estate. Did a lot of house hacking along through the years, and again, without any specialized knowledge other than real estate is a good place to, to park one's money. And I've just always had that desire to really get into more and more real estate. And so about 3 years ago, I, I did that. I decided to get myself some more detailed knowledge about investing itself, get into a network where I could borrow private money specifically for real estate and, and really understand the numbers better. And so once I did that, I was off and running with this flipping and buy and holds, Airbnbs, midterm rentals. The sky was the limit because I'll be honest, I had, I already had a business in renovation, design and renovation. So I was just really combining those two businesses, my real estate investing business with my remodeling business in order to achieve this whole new level of investing.

I love that. And I feel like it speaks to the power of education and mentorship and community because it, there's a lot out there, but it really, to get to that next level, there's a lot of knowledge and a really big toolbox.

Yes, absolutely. It's, and, and you can, I want to say this. You can find some of these things out Googling, watching YouTube, following people, listening to podcasts. The problem with doing it that way is you get it in bits and pieces and out of order, and you have very successful real estate investors that do things differently. One does it this way and one does it the other way. They're both successful, but they have different methods to their madness. And so Starting with one clear vision and one clear system is very helpful. And then when you become more adept at it and you become more experienced, you can then play with how you're going to go about it and create your own little path. But I think it's important to have someone that's gone before you lay that path out first, and then you can make it your own.

I totally agree, because I feel like when we were in the same initial course, things clicked. I'd heard about this stuff, but I didn't really understand the pieces of how it fit together. It really crystallized a lot of things and set me out. Okay, this, I'm going to start with this. And it was really helpful. I've gone on to do a lot of other education and I feel like I wouldn't be where I am without that. And it's just the toolbox. You keep building it and you keep finding new strategies.

Absolutely. And I'm going to tell you, in real estate investing, you're never going to stop learning because there is always another, there's something new to you that you've never done before. And even inside of things like me flipping, I've been flipping for years now, renovating for years. There could— someone could say the right thing and I'd be like, you know what, I never thought about that before. And so if I hear something like that, I'm going to grab it. I'm going to investigate it and maybe throw it in my toolbox. So you always need to be learning. Continuing education is vital, I think, to anyone's success.

I think it really is. And when you think you've heard of every strategy, something else comes along and just blows your mind.

Absolutely. And problems arise that you didn't even know could exist, right? It's always a world of surprise in real estate investing. We get, I would say, probably every single project you're going to learn a little something new because something new came up. And, and so it is a constant learning, but that's what makes it interesting and challenging.

It doesn't. I think as investors, we are ultimately entrepreneurs, and that is the journey. It's not this 9-to-5, like, clock in, clock out. It's, you really have to be a problem solver and figure things out. I've had plenty of moments where I'm like, okay, there's no sewer line. We have a septic tank. All right, let's just, you just start calling.

Everything is figureoutable, right? Yeah, there is an answer to every problem and there's a solution to every obstacle. However, we just don't always— we don't always like what the solution is, right? Maybe it costs more than we'd want, or it takes more time than we want. It's harder. But the— but getting up and doing it every single day, no matter what, put one foot in front of the other one and keep moving forward is your path to success. That's all there is to it.

It's so true. And I feel like the worst situations give you the best feeling of like accomplishment and make the best stories.

For sure. Like the ugliest houses make the best after, before and after pictures.

Totally. That's a great segue. I feel like everyone watches HGTV and sees this really sexy, beautiful thing and this transformation. We all love that. I think as humans, it's But I feel like a lot of people do like their first flip and they're like, oh, it was a learning experience. And so how do we, you know what, I know you have a book. What are, how can we actually make a flip successful as maybe a newer investor? Because it's a, most flips don't necessarily end well the first time you do.

Yeah. The statistics show that actually The far majority of people that flip house, flip a house, flip one and never do it again. And the reason for that is so many go into it without any— they watch HGTV and they think they know how to do it, and they truly never went and sought out a mentor, a coach, specialized knowledge, read a book. They just thought up— they knew how it made sense to them to go buy the ugliest house in the best neighborhood. We've all heard that. Make it beautiful, make it a showstopper, and someone's going to come pay you top dollar for that. They don't understand is the profit is in the buy. It's where we buy it. We have to buy it at the right price. And so learning how to do that is ultra vital. And so I did write the book, A Woman's Guide to House Flipping, because, uh, number one, I would, I want to say this, I'm an entrepreneur at heart. I love business. I love women in business. I love creating new businesses. And this is a business that women can get into and, and be very successful at it. So the trick though is to understand some simple formulas to understand the formula that you need to apply to a potential buy, a potential project house, so that you're buying it at the right amount of money that you can put the renovation into it. You can pay the carrying costs, you can pay the taxes, you can pay the insurance, you can pay the real estate agents when you sell that house and still have this big profit left in your hands. Because what happens is so many people get into it thinking it makes sense. They're like, I bought it $100,000 less than the ARV, the after repair value, and they don't understand that $50,000 in on renovation, the rest of the $50,000 is going to go towards their closing costs, their real estate fees, and their interest payments. They will have made nothing. So there has to be a formula. So you got to know the formula. So that's in the book. Explained very well. You need to understand what is this house going to sell for if I do this to it? What would be the sales price in this neighborhood for this house? And so I explain how to do comparables, how to comp your house just like a real estate agent would comp it to find out based on this area, what would be the sellable price. And then we start from there and back out of it. So those are some things in the book as well as who needs to be on your flipping team because it is not going to be yours. It's not the Shona Show. It's not the Gigi Show. We have teams of people around us in our real estate investing that make it successful. And so we talk, I talk about who needs to be on your team and then how project management works. How— what is the order in which things need to happen? Even if you're hiring a general contractor, this is your home, this is your property, this is your money. You need to understand project management and be able to oversee that. So all of that is in the book. I actually have about 8 steps to flipping the house inside the book. and it's a great little reference guide to use as you're flipping. I have checklists in that book so that you don't get to the end and go, there's another $1,000 worth of things I need for this flip. I didn't even think about door, doorknobs and towel bars and doorstops and light bulbs for the lights. Right. You've been to the Home Depot with the $500 dash, right? And so the checklists are in there. So that's why I wrote the book, because I felt like women can do this. I have a case study at the end of every chapter of a woman that I know who across the country that did it. So it's not one area, it's not one type of woman in one type of situation in one market. It's really all kinds of women across the country in different, uh, localities. And So I find that to be especially— that's kind of like my favorite thing in the book. And so, yeah, that's what the book was done for. I'm still encouraging women in entrepreneurial pursuits in business, whether in real estate or out of real estate. I love to help women get into business.

And I think that is the beauty of real estate. You don't need— I think we both have stressed education and having a mentor or by the book or just but you don't need to have a degree, right? You don't need to have a formal— I do believe, but so I think also I want to underscore that it is a flip as a business. It's all, it's this right, left brain, right? You might, I love design. That's why I love midterms, but it's also extremely numbers-based. Like you're living in a spreadsheet, I feel like, right? Absolutely. It's really important. And on the face of it, like to your point, some deals might look great. So what are some like top I've just heard the story so many times, like we got, did a flip. Is it just, is it running your numbers, your ARV? What would be like a couple takeaways? Like obviously get the book, but if you were to say, okay, these 3 things are like really crucial.

Okay. You need to know how to comp your property. And if you don't know how to do that, or if you feel too inexperienced at first, get a real estate agent who is familiar with that area. And this is what I do, because even though I feel very confident in comping, there's sometimes it's hard to find enough comparables in an area, or when the economy shifted on us a year and a half ago, we couldn't find anything. There was nothing selling to even have any current comps. I picked the phone up. My, one of my best team members is a real estate agent who's an investor-friendly real estate agent. And I say, What would you sell this for? If I go in and do my thing, what would you be able to sell this house for? And then he comes back and tells me, I think you should— I think I could put this price on it. And so I'll use his, and he usually sends me all the comps that he's finding because he can find things on the MLS that I might not be finding in my real estate investing software. So I will defer to him on that. So it's just go to ask your real estate agent, What would this house sell for if it was updated to whatever level you're going to update it? There's your comp, and then you're going to multiply that by some factor. Most people are using 0.70. You multiply it, that which just means you're giving yourself a 30% discount off of that ARV, that after repair value. And then from that number, you have to remove the, the repairs. Now you're buying it at a discount, minus everything it's going to take to renovate it to that level. So very simply, it's ARV times 0.70 minus repairs equals the amount you should pay for that property. Now, when you're early on, you're going to want to stick to that super close. As you progress and grow and understand different exit strategies and multiple other things, you can play with your numbers after you— but you know, learn the rules first, follow hold down, and then you play with that as you wish. But that's where you should start, and that will help you achieve— this is important— approximately a 15% profit off the ARV. Meaning if your house sells, if the ARV of your house is $500,000, that's what its value is after you do everything. If you follow that formula, you should have a profit in the range of $75,000. 15% of the, the, the $500,000. If it's a $300,000 ARV, you're looking at $45,000. So that also helps you understand why that formula is so important. You want to be left with this particular profit, but it also lets you know when you can negotiate up and down a little bit too.

Yeah, really great point about the investor-friendly agent because they're the ones going to, are going to list it and you could, I oftentimes, especially with wholesalers, they like to give you optimistic ARVs. And if you're running numbers against that, you can be really screwed.

Yeah. And I buy from wholesalers all the time. And I also turn down deals from wholesalers all the time because they do, they want the absolute, they're going to say the highest ARV, the lowest repairs, and have this huge spread. Here's what I have my advice to using a wholesaler. I'm not against wholesalers. I love wholesalers. They're doing all this work for me. Mm-hmm. However, I never listen to the repair number. I don't pay any attention to their ARV. I run all my own numbers. I do my own due diligence, my own property analysis. And they're saying the lease we're taking on this house is $225,000. And my numbers say I can only pay $190,000 for it. And I want it, I make the offer for $190,000. Sometimes I get it. Most of the time I don't, but I don't want it unless I get it at that price. So make the offer. Sometimes they come back 2 weeks later and they say, okay, we couldn't get it sold at that price. We've renegotiated with the homeowner. You, you still want it at the $190,000? Yes, I want it at that price. So don't discount wholesalers, even though a lot of them are overpriced, um, in what they initially start with. Just make the offer. And I have made a lot of money off my wholesalers.

That's an excellent point. It's negotiable, right? And it has to make sense from the business case. So yeah, love that. So on that note too, I think when you go into a flip, I think we think Our vision is we're going to flip it in a month, make a bunch of money. But I think knowing your exit strategies, that's important.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

That we're going to flip it in a month?

Or exit strategies and knowing, okay, plan ABC, because I think sometimes the market shifts and we have to be really strategic on, okay, we have a plan for all of that.

Absolutely. Here, let me just say this. I do not listen to people that are all butterflies and flowers about real estate investing. This is a risk. There is risk. All investments are risk. If you put $20,000 into some stock, it could crash, right? We have no control over certain things, and real estate is no different. It's an investment, and anything could happen, right? The, the market could have a huge shift right in the middle of it. It's happened to many people. You could find out that there is something drastically wrong with this house that you did not know going in, and it's going to cost a lot more money to repair this and get it sellable than you thought. Lots of different things can happen. So let me just go into saying, if you understand what the risks are and you learn how to prepare for those risks, One of the things I'm going to say is when people tell you can do this without any money, they are correct. If you want to get started that way, but it will take a lot longer. You're going to have to find amazing deals or you're going to have to JV with someone who has money. But you can get started without any money on your own, but you definitely do not want to stay there because you want to be able to cover any extra fees. You want to cover any surprises that show up in that house. In the renovation costs. And it's just not fun. It is not fun feeling strapped for cash the entire time you're flipping a house. So save your money, ladies. Save your money, put it away and be ready for those little rainy days. But here's my thing about— we're talking about risk. You must go into it with your main exit strategy. That's what you're telling your lender. This is what I'm going to do. But you gotta have backups. When that doesn't work, then can it— would it also be a good rental? And if it's gonna be a good rental, is it long-term, midterm, or short-term rental? What would be the plan there? What is another exit strategy? Could I actually wholesale this off to someone else if things turned a different direction or I got busy with something else? So had multiple And what does that come back to, Shona? Continuing education to keep learning about all of the different options that are out there. And as far as getting this house, I hear this all the time. I really only need a 3-month loan, but I'll go ahead and get a 6-month loan, but I know I can knock this out. Here's the thing. What you don't realize, you close on a property, you can't buy any material for that house until you've closed on it because it's not yours and you— anything could happen. So you still have to go back in. You got to see a house now that's cleared of all the furniture. You looked at it while someone lived in it and all their stuff is in there. So now you go back, they moved out and you're like, whoa, I didn't know there was this giant hole in the wall behind the sofa. And I didn't realize that there was rot under the kitchen sink, underneath that mat they had there. So you're finding your scope of work has to change. The planning, the ordering, all of that begins that day, right? You start ordering all of your materials. Even if you can knock the renovations out, if you are lucky and you got one that is just, let's paint this thing, do a few repairs, slap in some new carpet, and we're good to go. You're looking at a month.

Mm-hmm.

And then you have to list it. You have to put it on the market. Now you have to find a buyer. Now let's say you got lucky and a buyer came along in 3 days and signed the contract. You still have to get to closing. And unless they are literally a cash buyer, it's going to typically take 6 weeks to get to closing. That's an average, 4 to 8 weeks to get to closing.

Mm-hmm.

So what people forget about is all of that other stuff that is outside of their control. The renovation's only one part of the time frame. It's all the other things that happen too. So my advice is never get less than a 6-month loan. And that's if it's a simple remodel. If it's a full gut, I say go ahead and get a 12-month loan. And if you can pay it off early, there's no pre-penalty fee. So you're— but you're set. The difference is not having to pay an extension point or two to extend your 6-month to 9-month. And oh, I need to extend one more time. It costs you more money to do extensions than it does to start with the 12-month loan and pay it off early.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it's nerve-wracking too if you're getting to that deadline and the loan is due and you're very stressful, just like it's a— which is another, sometimes when you're working with private money, but if you build in that option to extend, it gives you that leeway, but it's, yeah, it's an One of our flips, we market just turned and we're like, oh, let's run it for 6 months. We staged it twice, but we did it. We held onto it and pivoted. And, but yeah, you just never know.

You never know.

The other thing that on this topic of flipping, and it, I don't, I guess that's cliché, working with a general contractor. I like how you say you are the PM, but there's just, there's so many stories and there's so many good and bad. Any tips on that? Because I think it's really challenging for a lot of women especially, right?

It is so hard. This is what amazes me, Shonda, is that women come into real estate investing and they have to learn all what we just talked about, all the things you have to learn to be a knowledgeable real estate investor. And if you have never remodeled anything in your life, never been in the construction world, you're also supposed to just somehow naturally know how to remodel this house, how to vet your general contractor, or how many I know that say I'm going to try general contractor myself. They don't even know what order the subs need to come in. Let me just say this about general contractors. Definitely, if you're coming into this world of flipping and real estate investing and renovations, with no prior knowledge of construction, then you want a good general contractor. So you're gonna, you're, first of all, you should be networking with local investors, not just on Facebook type groups, because you want people that know your local area. Who are they using? Who do they recommend? You can even go to Home Depot to their Pro Desk and ask if they can refer some general contractors in the area that they know. You can get on whatever city you're going to be flipping in and just say, hey, I've got this big remodel coming up, or I've got several remodels going on. Who would you— who have you used that you would recommend? And then you'll just get a bunch of names and then you can start calling and vetting those individual people. So I will say a couple of things real quick. Number one, if you're in a state that requires a general contractor license, not all states do require that, but if you are, make sure they're licensed. You want a licensed one if that's what your state requires. You can actually get on your state— once you meet someone and get their number, their license number, you can go on your state site and make sure that the number and the name match because they don't always, uh, for a couple of different reasons, but you want them to match. You would also want to know that they carry general liability insurance. And if you decide to do business with them, you're going to ask them to have their insurance company email you over a copy of their insurance. You do not ever want the person to give you a copy of it. You will only receive a copy from the insurance company if they have a policy in good standing that they're actually making the premiums on. And you're going to want them— if you go into business do a contract with them to have you, your LLC, as the additional insured on that particular policy. The main thing that does for you is you get a notice in the mail if they suddenly stop making their premium payments in the middle of your flip. Okay? And then you go like, I have no insurance. So you would know. So there's a couple of quick things as far as vetting the general contractors. You can always ask for pictures, but I don't trust pictures because they can get pictures off the internet anymore unless it has their sign, their hat. They have a label on a cap and they put it on a counter and take the picture. I know some who are doing that now to keep other people from stealing their photos. But here's what I love. What do you have going right now? Do you have any work I could actually go see that's being worked on right now? Of course you can ask for references that you can call, but how much better even is a reference that you get to go over to I can see the work happening. Maybe it's for another investor, maybe it's for a homeowner, but see their work, see the people that are there. Another thing to ask is, do you only hire licensed plumbers, HVAC technicians, and electricians? I don't care what state you're in, those are the 3 trades that must be licensed to work on your property. And even if they— like in Texas, we do not have a general contractor license, but we are required to hire licensed plumbers, HVAC, and electricians. And you can't pull a permit that's having that work done if they don't sign off on the permit with their license number. So make sure they're not bringing a handyman or a jack of all trades in that's going to do it all. And here, and then here's the sad thing. I hate to even say this, but this is very true. I have heard sad stories where people got references. They saw work, they heard nothing but good, and it all fell apart on their particular job. And here's the truth. We're dealing with human beings. We are dealing with very small businesses. And because we're investors, we're typically looking for a bargain or a lower price. Those kind of contractors, a lot of times we call them truck bank contractors, right? They don't have an office that you can go to the office. You just have a P.O. box. And their phone number, right? Life happens to them and something— maybe they have another job that's going bad, and so suddenly they're not showing up at your job, they're over on this other job. Or you have paid them but they keep asking for more money, but no work's happening because they're actually using your money to fund another job, thinking they're going to get caught up and get back to you, but it's not happening. Or you get that sick feeling in your stomach when they keep— the wife has cancer, my father died, my son, and the truck broke down, but now I have a flat tire. When someone's scamming you, my advice in that situation, when it starts going south, is get to the bottom of it as fast as you can. Have no nonstop communication with that person. And the second that you're like, this isn't going to get any better, then accept that intuition. Women are great at this. Accept it as hard as it is and let them go and get someone new on the job. The horror stories usually happen because they go, but I just kept trying because it was so hard to hire someone else. So I kept giving them the benefit of the doubt and they said they'd be back next week or they'll be back in 2 weeks. And they— one person showed up and did something and then nope, nothing again for 3 weeks. And so all you've done is cost yourself more money when you could have let go of them, moved on. And so I say all of that not to be scared, not to scare anyone, but to show that these are possibilities. And so you should always have more than one general contractor in your back pocket. And let me also say this, when you get a good one, you want to treasure them. You want to treat them like gold because they are. And you want to treat them so good and, and nurture that relationship with them so they'll want to work on your next job and your next job and your next job. Once you find the one, you want to nurture them. Now, if you're going to grow and you want to be this really big flipping business, you need more than one general contractor. They can only handle so many jobs at a time. And so you might want to have two. Add one more that you feel just as much trust in. But here's the other little thing. I'll say this too. A lot of people have expectations that a general contractor is also going to be this fantastic project manager. And most general contractors, especially on the little bit of the lower price side, they're not working for high-end residential clients like I do. They just want to, they just want to bring in the work. They want to bring in the subs. That's what they— general contracting, meaning they bring all the other subcontractors in. So we should expect that they would bring those people in that are qualified, that they are going to perform quality work, that the contractor is going to schedule this thing out so that it goes as fast as possible in the right order. However, we also have a lot of project management. That we want to put on their shoulders. Now, if you're working with a super high-end general contractor that works for very high-end clients, that is something you should expect within his office to have enough people to be able to project manage and general contract. This one-man show, you're going to probably be disappointed in his project management skills, which is why I keep coming back to you need to have at least an, an edge, an understanding of project managing your own deals. Because if you can see something getting off, then you want to be able to step in and say something, or you just want to be involved in the project management from the beginning. What does the schedule look like? How far out do you have things scheduled? How are we going to get from point A to point B in that time with this schedule? With— because it's hurting cats, subcontractors, showing Right? Somebody, their job ran long, so they can't get there the day they said. Then somebody has COVID, the whole team's out. And then, so it's this constant thing going on. You, if you don't understand project management and the timelines, how are you going to correct and have a conversation with your GC to know whether he's doing it right or not? Project management. Learn it, love it, embrace it. If you're going to be a successful real estate investor, it's so important.

So we had an agency before this, and sometimes I'd step in as a PM and yeah, I feel like it's, you're a cat herder, right? You're talking to subs and you're working. But I think that's a really excellent point to underscore that when you're hiring kind of investor-friendly, like GC that's in his truck, he doesn't have this back office support, he's pretty scrappy, right? He knows his subs. So I think we put these expectations on them and then we get pissed off when they're not delivering this beautiful like spreadsheet with color-coded likes. So I guess my question is, can we say, hey, I want you for doing that? Can we be like, I will be the PM and just, I've ended up bringing my own subs in, but how do you work with someone like that without stepping on their toes? Because they probably think they maybe don't want you meddling. And I know I've learned you never talk to their subs because I've got major trouble for— I think they thought I was stealing them or something. I wasn't.

Yes.

Trying to connect. But so lessons learned.

Yeah. You never, you don't talk directly to their subs. Um, this is the deal. If you have a good general contractor, who just simply isn't going to have that, that level of project management that you really are looking for in your project, then it makes sense to communicate with them that this, there's parts of this that you really want to be on top of. And sitting down with them on that schedule is a really good starting point. Because if you both have this schedule that you've both kind of created, then that's a perfect, that's something to communicate about. Either you're on schedule, ahead of schedule, or you're behind schedule. So that's that communication. I say everyone should meet with their GC once a week, if not more, but no less than once a week. If you can meet at the job site, absolutely better. If you cannot, maybe you're doing a long distance, have them take videos or FaceTime them while they're on the job site. Let them show things. Be very clear about when, how the payments are going to be made, at what levels, or if you're doing weekly payments or if you are doing benchmark payments. Branding is complete, we now need this bill. Painting is complete, we now need to be paid for this. Or is it, this is a $50,000 job and I'm going to charge you this much every single week on Thursday. And you're going to write the check out and I will show you all the work that took place during the week, but it won't be benchmark payments, right? So there's multiple ways that they may want to be paid or that you want to set that up. But, but the important thing is you both understand it, that you aren't on two different pages going, I don't understand why you're not paying me because you didn't finish the sheetrock, but it's all finished except for one bedroom. I know, but one bedroom means it's not finished. You can see how you go back and forth. Clarity on the payment schedule, communicating on a regular basis, and treating them with utmost respect and honor for the level of just experience and their craftsmanship, the abilities that they have. They need to be shown respect for that. When you cut that off is if you are working with someone who is not— who is dishonest with you, who's not showing up for the meetings, who's not sticking to the payment plan, who's always asking for money before it's time. That's when you say, I'm not dealing with a pro here. And you have to step in.

Yeah. And I think that's a tough thing. But to your point, you got to pull that Band-Aid off because it just goes south.

Yeah. And costs you so much money in the meantime as you paying those carrying costs to just keep dragging this thing out.

Yeah. So that brings up this kind of my own head debate. Like, I, I, I, in the last jobs, I bring in my own subs and I do the cat herding, but oftentimes I don't do in the right order. Like, pros, cons of being your own GC versus hiring one, or is it your personality? I'm curious because it's a debate I have.

I'm actually teaching a workshop this Saturday, Understanding Project Management and General Contracting for Women in Real Estate Investing. The reason why is there are so many disappointed with the abilities that their general contractors have brought to the table. I think that it's important to at least get an overview so that you know how to deal with them. And number two, if you want to general contract, your own projects, then the one thing— number one, you need to know basically what you're doing, the order in which things happen, what needs to be on the job site when, what normal quality, quality control would look like. And you need to have the time to do that. If you're working a W-2 40 to 60 hours a week and also want to be doing real estate investing, You can do that. But if you want to be your own general contractor, it's going to be very difficult because you need to be able to get to the job site at least a couple of times a week, if not more. If you're GCing, you need to make sure the subs are there when they say they're going to be there and they're doing what they say. And if they're finished and want to get paid, you've got to go inspect the work and make sure it's matching your quality control. So there's a lot to general contracting. That's simply just, do you have the time to do it? And if you have the time to do it, you're going to save anywhere from 10 to 30%. Okay, 10 to 30%. I think it's worth learning. I think it's worth doing. But then again, I've been a general contractor for many years and it's what I do for a living. But if you can figure this out, how to get this done and build the right team, it's a big team if you're going to renovate an entire house. But once you have the right people in place, you will use them over and over and over again. They'll get to know you. They'll get to understand. I know what Shonda expects on this. I know what her level of quality is. She's going to be okay with this, but she is not okay with this. And then it becomes smoother each time you have a new project. It's a smoother— it's a smoother job, right? I have subs that work for me for 15 years. We don't have trouble because we just know each other. Right? And so in all aspects of doing business together, that's what will happen if you become your own GC. You'll have this team eventually that, that you just know each other and it makes for such a smoother project and allows you to keep more money in your pocket. In your pocket. If you want to be— make this a full-time business, then I really think becoming your own GC is important because you can do— if you're going to do, let's just say, 7 flips one year and you're saving 10 to 30% on every single flip, we're talking about a significant difference in what you put in your pocket at the end of that a year, significant, as well as smoother projects that flow better because you're on top of that. You're looking at it as a full-time business that you are running. And look, if you start getting to those kind of numbers, you're going to be hiring. It's not all going to be you. You're going to be hiring project managers or assistants that help do these things. I run multiple businesses. I run a multimillion-dollar remodel firm. Do you think I'm out there doing any of this stuff? Very rarely. I have a whole team that knows exactly what they do. I have estimators and project managers and bookkeepers and designers and salespeople that are doing all this stuff, right? I just have to watch over all of it and be the answer lady. You know, eventually if you run your flipping business this way, that's exactly where you will be.

Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense because it is a business and you're gonna be more efficient and you're gonna be happier. And yeah, that leads me into, you know, the next question. Flipping, it's feast or famine, right?

Yeah.

If this is your full-time thing. So how do you, I think you teach us, how do you make a business if you have this great team, you really enjoy it, you're good at it. And you make a business out of that, which I hadn't thought about until I listened to your stuff.

So I have created a program called Renovate Her Business Network, and it is designed to help women who have not only a passion and a talent for design and renovation, but also who have the desire to create a business out of that. So you have to have all of those things. One of the problems with someone who is flipping houses or who is more focused on renovating houses to make them buy and holds, midterm Airbnb, long-term rentals, there's a long time from the day you get hold of the project to the day that you sell it or that you start renting it and start getting some cash flow. So paycheck is right, 6 months to a year maybe on a flip before you get your paycheck.

Yeah.

And so if you are already— if you're the one who's designing your projects, if you're GCing your project, if you have all these subcontractors working for you on these projects, could you take that same exact team and resources, same exact knowledge and talent, and start a business that is open to the public in your local area where you specialize in kitchen remodel or bathroom remodel or all interior remodel. And without being one of these chasing all these different, uh, income sources, because you're just simply putting a twist on what you already do. So this isn't shiny object syndrome. This is, I'm already doing this. Now I'm doing it for me. Now, if I do it for Mr. and Mrs. Smith, instead of me getting a loan and having to front the money and pay out interest every month and wait for my profit, I'm going to sell them this project and I'm going to get a down payment, cash flow. I'm going to start the work and I'm going to have a weekly paycheck from that client for 4 weeks or 6 weeks or 12 weeks, however long the project is. That's called weekly cash flow. And then we're gonna close out the project. They're gonna be thrilled with the work. I'm going to have given them not only a beautiful end result, but also have made great communication, great customer service. They're gonna love me. They're gonna tell their friends about me. I'm gonna get more business. While you're still working on those flips and those renos, you got cash flow coming in. And here's the thing, in Kinsey Interiors and Remodel, I've been here for 25 years, and I started this business doing a lot of things the traditional way in the reno industry, the remodel industry. And over the years, I have said, I'm going to leave the traditional way of doing this, and I'm going to do it a new way. And so there's 3 points that I found a new way to do it because I wanted to get to the profits fast. I wanted to get to the sale faster, right? Get to the money faster. So I wanted to do that. I wanted to make bigger profits and I wanted to have steady cash flow. And one thing I didn't want was to get to the end of the job and go, they won't pay me. They don't like something and they just won't pay me. So now how do I get my money? I came up with a way to get them to sign off on the contract and put their down payment. At a very early on and then begin the details of the design selections. Then start the picking and choosing. Get to the construction and rather than having benchmark payments where if that subcontractor has COVID and doesn't show up or they're behind and they can't get there, we can't get our benchmark payment. How do I pay my people? We just set it up. This, this is going to be about a 12-week construction project, starting with work week 1 through work week 12. You will pay X amount of dollars every single Wednesday. And so the only time we don't enforce that weekly payment is if for some weird reason not one thing happened in their house that week. Maybe sometimes they go on vacation and don't want anyone to work. Maybe they have COVID and don't want anyone in the house. It's extraordinarily rare for that to happen. So you can see by the time we get to the end of the project, we might have $750 due for punch list. We've had everything else paid. And if we get to the end and they go, we don't like this, we're not paying. Okay, you're not going to pay your $750 punch list payment, but all the rest of it's paid for. So because if they stop making payments that week 6, obviously we would stop work at week 6 until something got corrected. Has that ever happened to me? No, never ever has that happened to me. Um, but it's set up in such a way that we prevent that. So we want to have the right markup. We want to understand how to price our services, understanding that we're not for everyone because we are very focused on customer service. We want to get to the money faster. We don't want to design for 2 or 3 months before we finally get to the renovation project, and we do not want to have benchmark payments because we need to have steady payments. By the time we get to the end, we're covered. And that system has grown my business from below a million dollars a year in revenue to multiple millions of dollars a year in revenue. And I still only have a handful of actual employees working with me.

You really systematizing it and just that service. I'm sure that just your referrals are off the hook.

The best, always the best marketing is word of mouth referral. And it always has been. As we are growing and expanding out of our very local area into more and more cities and towns in our area, we're finding we are having to advertise and get our name out there on Google. Because they don't have a neighbor necessarily that used us. But in my, my town right here, which is about 100,000 people, we just have neighborhood referrals. We just work in certain neighborhoods over and over again. And then that now, over the last few years, we've really expanded into the other towns around us. And so that's now happening there as well, because everyone wants a referral when it comes to a remodel. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, special.

Most people, even if they find us on Google, they're gonna wanna read my reviews and they're gonna want a list. We'll handle 2 or 3 pages of, of references. There's never a problem with that. They can call all day long on references for us. And if we have some in progress, we'll let 'em come see us in progress as long as the homeowner gives us permission to do that. Growing it like anything else, just like your real estate investing that someone has started. If you wanna twit, if you want to pivot a little bit and go to working for clients, then just know that there's going to be a snowball effect. It's going to take a while to start getting that interest. You're going to start putting bids out and then boom, you'll get that first one. And then the next one will come and the next one will come and it snowballs till you have multiple projects happening. And what's happening during those projects? They're each making a weekly payment, correct?

Yeah.

So my company might have 15 or 16 jobs going at one time and each one of them is making a weekly payment on top of the new sales that are paying the down payment that pop in, you know, throughout that. So it's cash flow, very steady, while you are working with identical team of people for yourself, for your own Real Estate Investing LLC, for your buy and holds or your flips. And then bam, that company is growing in a, in becoming an actual asset to you because you're getting a system and process. This separate company is growing and becoming an asset. And then here's the cool thing, Shona. Here's the most cool thing of all. So here is your real estate investing company in your left hand, and here's your remodel, local remodel company in your right hand who has what it needs to be in business to do that. So now when you go tell your hard money lender, I have a hard proposal from my contractor to do this work, it's your left hand and your right hand feeding one another.

Yeah.

Can you see how you can create this amazing business out of two things that just simply support one another? But they are totally separate LLCs. So this LLC hires your other LLC. So this one's making a profit off of your flip. Same time it's making a profit off of these clients, it's making a profit off of your flip, as it should be, because otherwise you would be paying a GC, right? So you are paying a GC, but it's this LLC.

And I feel like another benefit is if you're in between flips your crew is busy, they're loyal to you, but you're figuring—

They would love you because you keep giving them work.

I, that is, I never occurred to me that could be another. I have super shiny object entrepreneur.

And this is not shiny object syndrome because you are an amazing designer. You're already a renovator. You're already a general contractor. You're absolutely everything that I am. As the owner of Kinsey Interiors and Remodel, except that you're only doing it for you. Yeah, you're not doing it for paying clients. And if you add paying clients in a separate LLC, you continue everything you're doing and you use your team to do all these things for them and they pay you. You don't pay anything. That's the difference. I didn't have to go get a loan to do this $100,000 remodel for this client. They paid me a down payment and they started making payments to me. So I have cash flow nonstop.

That is really, and you get to do, usually you go into this because you love that, right? You love all the things and that's really interesting. God, I, yeah, the way you put it.

Yeah. So renovation, again, I only do, I still don't have shiny object syndrome because I, the sky's the limit with that too. I, I focus my Kinsey Interiors and remodel on interior remodel only. So if someone calls and says, we want to do an addition, we want to pop the top, we want to build an ADU, I say, here, let me give you some names because that's not what we do.

Okay.

I do everything interior. So we specialize in kitchens and baths. And if you can do a bathroom, you can do any other room in the house. There's not one thing. And if you've got a primary bathroom, everything you do in there is going to be some trade that would be used somewhere else in the house. Right. You have everything you need if you can specialize in the bathroom to do the others. Kitchens are way easier than bathrooms and they are more profitable than bathrooms. So you do kitchens and bathrooms as your specialty. And now what? If you do a primary bathroom, don't you have to do something in the bedroom? At least paint it, if not change the floor or the trim or the ceiling fan or the light fixtures so that it's it all works. If you do a kitchen that's open to a family room, dining room, breakfast room, all the floor has to look right. The cabinets by— that are flanking the fireplace need to look like the cabinets in the kitchen. The backsplash tile makes the fireplace surround look hideous, so you're going to have to change that. And the laundry room is attached to the kitchen. Let's get new countertops and paint the cabinets in there as well. One thing leads to another. And so we do lots of one bathroom, one kitchen, but we also do a lot of whole interior remodel and update. So while you're there, let's go and do all the flooring, all the paint, each one of the bathrooms. Let's swap out the countertops. Not a big remodel in this hall bath, but let's just do the countertops and the faucet and the sink and the mirror and the light fixture. You see how it just snowballs? So we do a lot of $100,000 and $200,000 projects on top of just the individual bathrooms and kitchens.

That's so interesting because I personally love figuring out what can I do that those little things change the whole vibe of a— it's fascinating. I'm like, oh, I just changed a fixture. I look at it.

That's true. You really can go in, put on some paint and change light fixtures, maybe the faucet. Maybe paint the cabinet and never remodel anything.

Yeah.

But at the same time, another room in the house requires a full gut, or the homeowner thinks it needs a full gut because it's not functioning right. If something isn't functioning well, then it needs to be a new layout or something. Or maybe the problem that they're trying to solve is it's ugly. They just can't— I can't look at it anymore, and I'm willing to spend money to fix that. And then other things just need a little kiss here. There so that everything has a freshening.

Mm-hmm. But I, I think, and I don't know, maybe this is me, just I feel like when you bring that design and GC, a lot of GCs don't really, they're not bringing that design piece to it. They're probably just like—

Most do not bring the design piece to it. And then, and so when you can offer both, Shona, you've got something.

Interesting, because there's just— yeah, I see some flats. I'm like, that was a Home Depot vanilla.

Yes. And, you know, clients have a vision, they have ideas, they don't know how to bring it to fruition. And so I always say our job, we do not have a signature look. Our job is to take the vision of the client and make it even better, make it so that when they walk in their door, they are all smiles. It's exactly what they wanted. It may not be what I would want or what their neighbor would want, but it's what they want, and that's what they're paying for. So it's our job to bring their vision to reality, and hopefully better than they could have ever dreamed that it would look. And we need to be a good steward of their budget. And so we have either have to be very honest and say that their budget is off for what they want, or we need to find creative ways to get them the look they want in that budget. And that does not mean that you end up out in the driveway painting and doing art craft work on all of their stuff so that they can save money and do it because your time costs more money than that. So that's all TV stuff. That's all HGTV. The designer's out in the driveway working on this and we're going to save them money. And in the real world, it costs them more money to do that than to just replace something. Because our time is so valuable. So, so for real estate investors looking for another way to use those skills and passions, that is a viable business that will work hand in hand with their REI business and put more money in your pocket, keep your team busy, and You can take it as far as you want. You can have one client at a time if that's all you feel like you can handle. You can grow to multimillion status a year. It's all in your hands. There's no reason that anyone who comes through the Renovator program can't get to a million dollars in revenue in 24 months.

Yeah, because I always say this is a long game, buy and hold rentals, right? That's— there's a little cash flow. It's not enough to live on.

It's a long game. Yes.

If you want to retire, you need how many doors to like, yeah. So I love that. It's just, you're in the business. So I have to ask, I think being a woman, is there any kind of, is how does that go over when you're, is it an asset? I'm assuming it sets you apart, but I'm curious. Huge.

It's a huge asset. Huge asset. We have way more men remodelers in my area. I was the only woman remodeler when I started. Now I know of, I think of one or two more maybe in a large area. Or I see couples where it's the husband and wife team and the wife handles the design part and the husband handles that. And that's equal. I feel like that's the same thing as what I do, but overall, We women, this is, I think it's $417 billion. I can't, don't quote me on that. $417 billion business in the United States of home renovation. 9% are owned by women. 9%. That's totally ridiculous because when you think about it, when you're talking about this whole industry, that's roofing companies, that's countertop fabricating companies, that's suppliers. That is remodelers themselves. It's painting and all the different subs. Look, they're one of the largest roofing companies in the United States is right here in Austin, Texas, called Kangaroo, owned and run by a woman. She's not humping ladders up and down the shingles, up and down a ladder all day roofing houses. She owns the company. I owned our plumbing company and I'm not a plumber. And you don't have to be. You can own companies like that and hire licensed technicians to work under you. But if your passion is like mine, where it's really working with the homeowners and creating their vision and seeing the before and the after and making this all happen, this is a viable business for a woman. They love getting a woman's, uh, and not having a remodeler that says, I'll do whatever you tell me, ma'am. And they have to go hire an interior designer and then bring that plan to the remodeler and still be on top of it. And then they still tell them, okay, you need to have the tile here, you need to pay, go pay for your countertop. They don't want to bring those decorative things there. You bring all the black fixtures. We're a one-stop shop. We don't even allow our clients to bring their own materials to the table unless they have something they've backed up sitting in the garage they want to use. But we don't let them bring their eggs to the restaurant. So we are a one-stop shop, turnkey. You hire us, we start from the design, the selections. We order everything. We make sure we have it when we start construction. We're in there prepping their house and plasticking it off and tinting and protecting. We make sure their job site is taken care of. We ask them, what hours would you like us to work in your home? If they say we're good from 7:30 to 5:30, then great, we'll schedule accordingly. If they say we don't want anyone in this house before 8:30 AM, then we will schedule accordingly. We really take care of our clients and we call it a white glove service, as white as you can make it when you're renovating and tearing someone's house up. But we do our best to keep the dust control and make it an experience that is palatable for them while they live through it, because it's not fun living through a remodel. Let's just face it. And at the end, we never leave someone unsatisfied. If they vocalize that they're unsatisfied with something, we're going to fix it somehow, some way. And, and that goes a long way to your, that referral business as well. And I just love it. I don't know if you can tell, but I just love my business. We sold our plumbing company. I just, why would I sell this business? I love it too much. And And it works too well with our real estate investing. It's just a beautiful mesh of these two companies.

That is a perfect pairing. And I think when I just started out flipping, they didn't— I had to figure out fixtures. And I think it's, as a homeowner, when you're not looking at that stuff all day long, that, oh, go pick out your tile, your backsplash, your— and it's overwhelming, maybe overwhelming, and they can make I don't want to say bad choices, but they're not keeping the big picture in mind. And, and you spend all this money and if you don't put that thought into it, it can be a remodel that isn't really stunning if it's just vanilla Home Depot.

And what I always like to tell people is you can spend a lot of money and make something absolutely boring or ugly. You can spend the same amount of money and make it striking and beautiful. You can think about it. A gallon of paint costs $50. You can pick a beautiful color or an ugly color. Why not have a little bit of help and spend that money wisely so that you get the biggest bang for your buck out of your budget? You avoid costly mistakes and you have something that has some longevity to it.

And you want to come home and just be really happy. It's your place. You want to be like, I love this, this is my vision, versus coming home and just, it's vanilla. I don't know, I was, I see so many rehabs and I'm just like, oh, just the white, everything's white.

Yeah. And, and I, and I know in flips I tend to be very neutral, but I do some drama things with deep neutrals like charcoal versus a taupe or whatever. I don't use a lot of color, but when I stage it, yeah, when I stage my flip, that's where my fun color and interest and patterns and artwork, I bring that in because if they can see that they have a blank canvas, then they can bring all the color and things in that they want to live with. But in interior remodel for clients, We're listening to them. We're hearing their color choices. We're hearing what they're attracted to and what makes them feel good in a space. And we get to have more— we can have fun with color and texture and pattern. With tile is a great way to do that and bring interest into a room. Light fixtures, another fun way to do something that their neighbors don't have. So Doesn't look like the builder cut cookie cutter.

Yes, I know that look. Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah, I think I meant more like vanilla. It's just like the stainless steel, and I'm like, you could do some black or gold or just those little tiny things that would just— but yeah, no staging, I feel like that's— we get to get creative. Um, Gigi, this has been like super fun. I just wrapped this up. I just want circle back to the power of community and education and mentorship, because I know we both, I think it's really important. I think there's so much free information. I've had to question myself. I've spent so much money, but I just think it's really important. And sometimes people, I'd love to hear, just circle back to that, how people can work with you.

And I have a free group called House Flipping Women, and it's on Facebook, and it is private group, so you do have to be admitted, but the price of admittance is just to answer 4 questions and then you are in. We are almost 9,000 women now, and it's a fantastic network for finding private money lending, for finding equity partners, for finding someone to buy your wholesale work, to look for wholesale deals. Great network. It's also a place to bring your questions because some of these women have some vast experience and can jump in there and help you before you get too far with a project. Just get your questions answered. So it's a great community, House Flipping Women. And inside of that, I'm really dedicated to continuing education for free for women, which looks like a workshop once a month or a guest speaker that comes on and shares. There's nothing formal about it. No formal education there. But, but it's open to everyone. I want to make that available. In addition to that, I have a business network mentorship called Renovate Her. And in this program, I help women just like you and me that are interested in starting a residential home improvement business who want to work with their local clients. And they may or may not be real estate investors. That's not a prerequisite. And I actually share with them my processes and systems of starting and running this business so they get to their money faster, they get to the profits, to the higher profits, and they have steady cash flow. And it is a 12-month-long mentorship coaching program. I like to say it is a earn as you learn, because I want to get them out. I want their business set up and I want to get them out there to a client while I have them under my thumb, right? I want to be able to hold their hand through those first clients and they have someone to call and say, this is what's happening. How do I bid this? What do I say to this question? I'm not sure. Who would I get to do this? I hadn't even thought about that I needed this subcontractor. That is an earn while you learn mentorship. While we have classes every single week, we have a design coach. Then you have me. I coach everything there is to know about project management, general contracting, and running the business. We have an interior designer that coaches, and we have an accounting financial person that coaches. So at least you understand how to read your financial statements and how to manage your money inside of this this particular business. So that's what Renovator Business Network is all about. And you can follow me @renovator_one on Instagram. And, and I'm always offering workshops and masterclasses.

I love how hands-on that is. And it's really, you've thought of all the things. A couple more questions. I always like to ask everyone like top business or life advice. That you'd leave someone with to live life on their own terms?

Yes. Yes. I love that question because as women, from the time we are very young, I really think that— I think success is defined for us. We're told what a successful life is going to look like by our family, our community, our fellow church members. It can differ among one from woman to woman, but we're all told what that's going to look like. Oh, that's way too many kids. Or, oh, not going to have children? Oh no, we don't want that. You're a working mom? Oh, you're just a stay-at-home mom? Who are you going to listen to and who are you going to please? So my advice is this: define success for yourself. Put out— get rid of all the noise. Don't worry about what your preacher says or what the other women in the women's ministry say or the neighbors say or your family says. Nothing else matters except what you and God come to an understanding of what success for you is. And then you map out a plan to go get it. And I'm just going to say this. As women, we have so many seasons in life, and your definition of success is going to change and modify as you walk through these seasons. And that's as it should be. You should change your definition of success as your life changes, because we're growing and things are different in our life than they were 10 years before. So our definition of success is different now, but that's the way it's supposed to be. That's why your definition is so important and not hearing all of the chatter. She doesn't make enough money. Wow. She doesn't— she's doing that job. She doesn't make any money. Oh, this one over here, she makes so much money. She must be materialistic. You're never going to please everyone. So stop and just please yourself and God and know the path that you're on is the one you're supposed to be on. And whatever that definition of success success is, you'll achieve it. And that's where you find peace and joy and happiness, which ultimately is everyone's goal.

Yes. No, that is— that's a great answer because there's a lot of— just be true to yourself, know what you want to be.

Absolutely.

Um, awesome. Okay, this is a silly question. What is your superpower?

I do not have a superpower. I'm telling you, I just— I don't. I see women that I think must have superpowers to do what they do. I don't have what I think of as a superpower. But I will tell you that just a personality trait I was born with, evidently, is determination. And once I focus in and I say, this is what I want, I want then I go for it. And obstacles don't deter me. Challenges don't deter me. Problems don't deter me. The economy doesn't deter me. I just get up every day and take another step forward. And I'll tell you, part of being determined is the ability to make executive decisions. And you have to be able to do that knowing sometimes they're going to be the wrong— they're going to be the wrong decision. And that's okay. At least you did the next right thing as you know it that morning, that day. You made a decision. That's the only way you can keep going. Otherwise, what do we do when everything turns to crap? And can I say that on your show? When it all turns to that and we literally— I don't know what the right decision is. You can either go home, get in the fetal position and stay there. And just let it all come to an end and fall down. Or you can say, I don't know, but based on what I, I can put together, based on some people I called and asked them for their advice, based on prayer, I'm going to make a decision, right or wrong. And then we move forward with that. Maybe 5 years later you look back and go, yeah, that really wasn't the right decision. But guess what? You didn't stop. And that's the killer, is stopping. So my superpower is that right there. I keep going right or wrong. If it's wrong, I'll fix it later, but we're gonna move forward no matter what's happening.

No, I, as you were saying that, I have this note on my computer, action breeds clarity, right? You just gotta take it. Move.

I like the way you said that. Yes.

Yeah. I didn't coin that, but yeah, it's because if you just sit there and get analysis paralysis, you just have to make a decision and it'll be right or wrong and you're gonna keep navigating. Amazing.

And if it's wrong, you'll learn, right? You'll learn.

But if you don't make a decision, you're not gonna learn. And you're— because there's a lot of decisions, you have to be decisive and keep moving. Gigi, this has been so much fun. I, I really appreciate your time and definitely the Facebook group is great and your courses, I sound really good. I've known you for a long time, so I, I recommend if anyone's interested, education is So important and knowing people that are actually practicing, right? That are doing it, that believe in it, that are doing it for the right reasons. So you are that.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And yeah, I'm so excited for you. I'm excited. I know you have a course and I know you, and then this podcast and you're going to be a speaker at the, for the House Flipping Women. You're going to come on and be one of our Wednesday workshop teachers. So I'm looking forward to that.

Awesome. Yeah. I love talking real estate. It's just like my hobby. It's, I look forward to it. Thank you so much, Gigi. Thanks for coming on.

All right. Thanks so much.

Thanks. All right.