How to Take Advantage of the Market Shift with Lease Options AKA “Rent-to-Own”

and it's a nice midterm play, right? It's a 2 to 3 year play typically. So it's not a quick flip where it's 100% earned income, right? Active income. It's that really the benefits of being a landlord and a flipper rehabber without a lot of the headaches. And so we kind of combine the two of them. And for an investor, I'll tell you what, it's a killer way to get investment properties as low as 5 to 10% down. Instead of 20 or 25% down. And it's, it's good because one of the things I like to say is, you know, problem buying, problem selling, no problem. That's my tagline for Home Solutions Group, my company. Right. And it's no problem. We can make it happen. And you just, you need to have creative options. And boy, right now, right, with the market the way it is, right, what has been happening, what is currently happening and what this kind of next season's going to look like. Holy cow. The cookie cutter stuff, man, it's, it's, it's gone. Right? And so you really have to be someone who is hugely resourceful and either you understand the various options to help people or, right, even if you don't, that's fine, but you have that network that does.

Welcome to the Cedar and Porch Real Estate Investment Podcast. I'm the host, Shona Lepis. Follow along as we unpack and demystify real estate investment strategies through expert interviews and personal experience. From how to find off-market deals to creative financing to long-term and midterm rentals, our goal is to educate and inspire others to gain financial freedom and generational wealth through real estate investing. Welcome everyone. Today I'm super excited to have Jesse Mills on. He's a friend and fellow investor. We met at recently at Greg Pinho's Power Player Real Estate Seminar. It's a real Real great event. Definitely a game changer. Jesse is a real estate investor, coach, consultant, and realtor, and he has some very creative real estate strategies. So I'm super excited to dive in and learn more. So Jesse, if you want to introduce yourself, kind of your background and what you're up to, that would be awesome.

Awesome. Thank you for having me on this nice Sunday evening.

I love it.

I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's super fun to get connected at Power Players and what an amazing event, right? Oh my gosh. So, so fun and such a great group of people from all over the place. And amazing instruction from Mr. Greg Pinho is awesome. So yeah, let's see my background. By the way, I didn't get you a bio, so that was really good. Like, did you just, you just schmoogle it? Just find that?

I watched your intro video.

Ah, all right.

The dog played your podcast.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Good recon. Let's see. Well, I'm a podcast host as well. Realtor, investor, and consultant. My background is I spent about 15+ years in the mortgage business and then about 10 to 12 years now in real estate as an investor, really mainly, but also as a realtor, as an agent. But really most of my time is spent helping people get what they want, which sounds super cheesy and cliché, but really it's helping investors get in the world of investing, whether it's getting started or it's growing their portfolio, maybe getting into short-term rentals, getting into our unique programs that we help people. Really, it's pretty darn cool with our, our rent-to-own and owner financing program that we have nationwide and then helping folks get homeownership that can't get financing. So there's a humongous portion of the population still has been for years and will continue to be there, right, that just can't get financing. And so we make it our mission to really help as many people get homeownership as possible. And it's a pretty cool circle that everybody wins. And so, yeah, I'm just, you know, just feel that just kind of, kind of connect people and are really kind of just there as a resource and trying to, you know, help with kind of the weird scenarios and the goofy scenarios. That's kind of what I do and it's fun.

Yeah, I love that. I think it's what I really love about, I think I've told you this, real estate is whatever your background is, you bring that to investing and it's usually, it really helps you. So I love that you have that mortgage background. That's really unique because I mean, as investing, half the battle is finding financing, right? Or as a homeowner, that is such a big piece of it, financing and funding. So I'm sure you have like, yeah, really, really unique skills with that background that you're leveraging.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know, it's funny, I tell people, right? If you talk to, you know, a realtor, a real estate agent, they like to think that they've got an understanding on finance and credit, right? And they like to talk like they do sometimes, but usually they, they really don't. They understand real estate, right? Really well. But they don't understand the financing and the credit side. On the flip side, you've got these loan officers and mortgage brokers. They understand that really well— financing, credit guidelines, and this and that. And, you know, but then they like to think they understand real estate and they kind of don't. Right. And so, you know, spending, you know, 10 to 20 years on each side, right. You know, 15 and 10 really on each side. Right. And each leg of business, it's just kind of this background I've got where I really have a very good experience in both. And it's, it's good because, you know, one of the things I like to say is, you know, problem buying, problem selling, no problem. That's my tagline for Home Solutions Group, my company. Right. And it's no problem. We can make it happen. And you just, you need to have creative options. And boy, right now, right, with the market the way it is, right, what has been happening, what is currently happening and what this kind of next season's going to look like. Holy cow. The cookie-cutter stuff, man, it's gone. And so, you really have to be someone who is hugely resourceful. And either you understand the various options to help people or even if you don't, that's fine, but you have that network that does. It's like, "Gosh, you know what? I can't help with this situation, but My friend so-and-so, or my colleague or partner so-and-so, they can help because this is the stuff that they understand.

Yeah, I love that. And I think, I mean, homeownership is such a goal and such a dream. There's so many misconceptions, or that you have to have so much money, or you, you know, they don't even know where to start. I think it's, it's really, it's quite— if you've never gotten underwritten, it's just, you know, they want your firstborn and they want all your tax stuff, and it's, it's quite thorough. Yeah.

Quite. Yeah.

If you're self-employed, no W-2, it's extra fun.

Right? Right. That's a lot of our clientele actually is self-employed. So, it's a lot of our folks are business owners that we help get homeownership where they go talk to the banks and the banks say, "Hey, no way. Come back and see us after another year or two or three." Or I know you think you made $150,000 last year, but your taxes say you made $20,000 last year. Right? And they're like, well, I don't know. That's just travel. And that's just meals. And, you know, like you made $20,000, not $150,000. And, you know, it's like, well, Jesus, that's part of the benefits of being self-employed is we have some things we can write off that the government allows us to, right? They made the rules. We're just playing by them. But again, it can be very tricky for getting financing, right? And then ironically, I've got friends and fellow colleagues in the real estate world. I'm sure you do as well. They don't even use banks, right? They're like, we don't, we don't ever talk to banks for what we get. They're doing seller financing, they're doing subject to, they're doing lease to own, contract for deed, which is again, you know, something in my sweet spot that we do, you know, daily, weekly. I could talk about all day, but I think it's good to have options though. It's good to be able to get financing when you want to or when you need it. It's good to be able to go around it if you can. And that's a great option when it fits. But options, options, options, I guess, really is kind of the name of the game for sure.

Yeah. I was just talking to someone that has been able— he's got the W-2, he's owner occupied. It's like the magic ticket and he's leveraging the hell out of it.

Oh yeah.

It's just like running the house hacking to small multi. And I'm like, we just— and that is the magic thing, right? But once you leave that perfect world, it is very challenging. The banks are so risk-averse, right? Well, you know, I'd love to kind of, I mean, I think, trying to think where to go next. I mean, obviously, yeah. So if you, you know, you want to get a conventional loan, you know, you need all these things, right? You need 2 years of taxes and you need stable employment. But like, I guess who is like, how, you know, what is the conventional route? And like, and then how do you serve people that maybe where they don't have enough, they don't like their taxes are bad or they went through like divorce or bankruptcy or any of those black hole things.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe I'll tell you what, I'll try to, I'll try to do like a 90-second version. Maybe it's 2 or 3 minutes, but not, not 90 minutes. I try to, you know, compress things, but no, I'll do like a kind of a 90-second version because I think it, it, it's helpful to kind of know my background and what I kind of fell into what I'm doing now to a degree. It's kind of funny. It's an interesting story, but so I started doing mortgages out of college, right? I actually dropped out. So I'm like Van Wilder. I went for like 7 years, didn't graduate, right? Loved it. And I dropped out and a buddy of mine was, you know, making really good money, right? Like more than his parents or my parents and just crushing it. And my dude, you're like 22. What do you— what do you do? He's like, I just call people all day and I give them lower interest rates. I'm like, really? Yeah, all day. I just smile and dial and I give people better interest rates. Like, God, that sounds cheesy, but I could do that, right? I'm like, tell me more. I didn't even know what the heck a mortgage was. I know what that even stood for. So I'm like, all right, let's go. So I got in the mortgage business, did that and did that up until '08. And then '08, as we know, things got a little dicey around the country, around the world with the mortgage crash. I, you know, the first to admit, and I hate to admit it, but I will, I wasn't ready for it. I was one of those guys that You know, every day was great. Like I was making money and working in my PJs at home and it's fantastic, but I wasn't prepared for it. Right. And so I, you know, I didn't fare too well on that. You know, when billion-dollar banks go under, right? The lonely guy or gal who's a one-man or gal operation, right? It's not going to do too good. So I ended up getting a job for a few years and different line of work, sales and manufacturer rep and stuff like that. Fun, different gig, but got back in the business and I'm like, okay, let's do this right. Like, let's learn from my mistakes, right? You know, it was a few years later, things were kind of getting back to normal and I'm like, you know what? I helped people, you know, for years get investment properties and of course their own home. But I'm like, I need to start getting myself an investment property, right? And I'm like, well, I had gone through a bankruptcy. I went through a short sale and then I was, newly, you know, self-employed again. So I'm like, great, I'm the perfect candidate to not get a loan. Right.

And you knew firsthand, right?

I knew firsthand. I'm like, I wouldn't give myself one. Like, hell no.

Right.

And so I like, I knew I had that challenge and, you know, at the same time of like just kind of getting back in the game again, trying to get back in the rhythm, you know, being in the mortgage world, I started just, you know, diving into, you know, YouTube and, you know, online, you know, just different websites and, and I think podcasts were just maybe kind of coming out, right? And just learning about creative real estate. And I ended up buying a course from a guy who's now a friend of mine, and he's been on my podcast a number of times and vice versa. And great dude. But I bought his course. It was $1,000 and it was basically how to learn how to do lease options. And it was how to go buy houses, no money down, no credit, right? And I'm like, cool, that's me. I'm that guy. No money, no credit. Let's roll. Yeah. And I'm like, but this is really cool because what if these are some of my clients that I run across on a weekly, monthly basis that I have to deny? Because when I, you know, as a loan officer, you know, when you deny someone a mortgage, they're not happy and they're not getting what they want and you're not making any money and you're not happy. It's like, wow, that was just a crappy meeting for everybody.

Sorry.

Good luck. Yeah, killing their dreams, working for free.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

They hate you and it's like, I, I, I'm sorry. Trust me. I wish I had a different answer, but I can't, you know, the answer is no. And so I'm like, wow, well, what if I could help more people get what they want? Right. What if I could help more people have options? And heck, if I can make some money as well at the same time, great. That's cool. So I started learning about lease-to-own, really diving in. And the cool thing is this is why I, I'm a huge proponent of, of self-education. I am big on, you know, having a mentor, having a coach. I'm big on, you know, courses and coaching. Now, I'll be the first to admit, you know, are there some bad people out there? Of course. Are there some bad stuff out there? Of course. It's like anything, but there's bad doctors out there. There's bad attorneys out there, right? There's bad pilots out there. There's bad everything. So you just gotta be careful of who you listen to and who you watch. But, you know, if I hadn't spent that $1,000 on that online course, that might have made me nothing. Right? My family might be like, oh, you got screwed on the internet, right? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, no, I worked and I went and made $8,000 my first deal. Right? So, I mean, 8 grand.

Yeah.

That's a pretty huge ROI. Completely.

Yeah, for sure.

And again, and that was with a couple that frankly I couldn't help get financing. Right? So, in my job, I would've made nothing and they would've been disappointed and upset and because I had this other option, I made money and they got a house, right? So we both won. Win-win. So I started doing these deals on the side for years. Okay. And then also my mortgage business and I would find sellers that couldn't sell and I'd match them up with buyers that couldn't buy and really kind of create a spread, kind of create an arbitrage. And if there was room to stay in the middle, and do what we call a sandwich deal, right? I would do a sandwich deal. So for extremely simple math, I would say, hey, you know, Shani, you can't sell your house here at $100,000. But what if I give you $100,000, but I just need a year or two to do it? Can I give you your $100,000 in a year or two? And in the meantime, I'll pay you $1,000 a month. And you're like, sure, that sounds awesome because my house is vacant anyways. And hey, you like being a landlord. And sounds good, right? So that's exactly how the conversation goes. And then I find someone else who is happy to give me $115,000 for your house, right? And give me $1,500 a month. Well, that's pretty killer, right? I didn't use any credit. I didn't use any of my own money, and I came in and made $15,000 and $500 a month cash flow. Pretty sweet. But those deals are not everywhere. right? They're not everywhere. You have to do a lot of marketing. You have to talk to a lot of people and you really have to be able to explain to people why it's a win-win for everybody. So fast forward to like 2015, 2016. Okay. I'm talking to a friend of mine. He's also a loan officer and he said, hey man, do you have any good deals? You know, any good properties that you're working on or you're aware of? Because I know you come across, you know, properties and investment opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. He's like, I've got some rentals. I'm looking for a couple more. I'm like, no, you know what, I don't. I'm like, I've got this really great couple. They've got $20,000 to $30,000 to put down in a house and they can afford, I don't know, $2,500, $2,600 a month. I just don't have the house for them. So, I'm trying to find them the right house, right? Because again, my MO was to find sellers that couldn't sell, match them up with the buyers that couldn't buy. And I'd find sellers first and properties first, and then I'd go match them with the rent-to-own buyers. So he's like, so he hears me, he's like, wait, they got, you know, what, $20,000, $25,000 to put down. They can afford $2,500, $2,600 a month. How about I buy them a house? Like, oh, okay. Yeah, I guess that could work. I'm like, yeah, I've never done it like that. You usually got to find the property and then I do it this way. Right. Because you just get in your own way of what you do.

Right. And that's how it's taught. That's pretty, yeah.

That's how it's taught by most of the coaches and gurus and every investor out there. So I'm like, huh, all right, well, yeah, let's try that. Like, can I still get my fee that I would have made? He's like, yeah, sure, whatever, that's fine. He's like, you know, you can take a piece and I'll keep most of it because I'm buying it, but you keep a piece. And, and I'm like, and I'll help them figure out to fix their credit or do their taxes or whatever they have to do to get to the finish line in a couple years, get the mortgage. I'll help them get the mortgage, pay you off. They win, you win. Sounds like a good deal. I was like, all right, cool. So we did that 5 times that year. Okay. And my friend's name is Aaron. And I'm like, well, that worked pretty good. Like Aaron's pretty, pretty pumped. And Aaron knows exactly what he's going to get every single time he buys a property because we reverse engineered it. You know what your cash flow is because we're making the cash flow, right? If I know what you're going to pay per month and I know what my mortgage is per month, That's the cash flow.

Yeah.

And if I don't like that cash flow, I simply get better terms on my financing or talk you into better terms to make it what I need it to be. Right. And I also knew all of their story and I knew everything that was, you know, good, bad and ugly. But I knew everything. It wasn't like I got the property and I got to go see who I can find. And I hope it really is $1,600 a month because that's what Zillow says the rent estimates at. Or this, you know, software, this site says X. I already knew what they were willing to pay because they told me, right?

Yeah.

And I knew everything about them. And I know that they're going to take care of this property way better than a normal renter. Not knocking renters. We've all been there. You've been there. I've been there.

Right.

But when you're going to own the place and it's going to be your house, you think about it differently, you know? And then on top of that, when you've got $20,000, $25,000 in this particular case, right, for that, that couple on the line that you could lose if you don't take care of the property and do what you're supposed to do by paying on time and honoring your end of the agreement. That's some pretty big reason to do what you got to do, right? Well, how many more of my buddies are out there like this, right? How many more errands are there out there that are like, I'll go buy this person the house? And I'm like, well, I'll just do that too when it makes sense, right? I'll go buy the person the house. And so really that's kind of when, you know, I call it today the slow flip. I've got some other names going on because some people just don't like the word flip or slow, which I can appreciate that. I can understand both of that. But really we're slowly flipping a house without doing any work on the house whatsoever, or just buying it at one price and selling it at another price and doing no work to it whatsoever. And it's a nice midterm play, right? It's a 2 to 3 year play typically. So it's not a quick flip where it's 100% earned income, right? Active income. It's that really the benefits of being a landlord and a flipper rehabber without a lot of the headaches. And so we kind of combine the two of them. And for an investor, I'll tell you what, it's a killer way to get investment properties as low as 5 to 10% down instead of 20 or 25% down.

So is, is the investor purchasing the property, is it considered an investment on their end or is it— how is it? Is it an investment?

Yep, yep, yep. So, so the investor is buying the property and getting an investment, you know, property loan, a non-owner occupied mortgage on it with typically 20% down. Some sometimes they want 25, but usually 20.

Okay.

And they're buying it. At that, you know, but they're buying it at say $300,000, putting their 20% down, and then an hour later they're selling it for $330,000, $340,000, maybe $350,000, and they're getting $30,000 or $40,000 in their pocket an hour later.

So they're, I didn't, they're actually turning around and selling it. They're not like holding like a traditional sandwich thing at the, the sales way down the road. In this case, they're actually like owner financing it too.

Well, yes. So, so great, great, great question. Great point. Selling it when I do the finger quotes, the selling it is on owner financing. So they're doing usually a contract for deed or a land contract or they're doing a lease to own. But nonetheless, it's not like I just bought this property and I'm going to go see what I can do with it. And I hope I find somebody. It's— I'm buying the place that this person wants, that this person can't get, but I can get it and I can get it at today's price. And I'm going to go do that and sell it to them at tomorrow's price. And they're happy to do that. Why? Because they're going to go somewhere else and go completely waste $20,000, $30,000 a year more in rent to live in someone else's house that they don't even want and then have to go move when they can get what they want right now. They just pay a little bit extra for it and we're going to give them the time they need to fix whatever they got to fix, which is, you know, a year down the road, 2 years, maybe 3 at the most. And then they can come back and they can pay us off with the new mortgage and now it's completely theirs. So we're doing either a lease-to-own or a contract-for-deed, a.k.a. land contract.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, there's so many levels. That's a win-win, right?

Like we're I mean, honestly, I've got like diagrams that show people it's like 5 wins, sometimes 6. Okay. Right. Because let me tell you, do you know any realtors in your area? Right.

Yeah.

Right. Do you know any realtors that sometimes can't close every deal they get?

Mm-hmm. For sure.

Well, what if that realtor could come to you and say, hey, I've got this awesome couple and, you know, they've got a new business going on and their taxes just don't look great yet. Or they just went through a divorce. And so now I'm helping the husband or the wife get a home, or there was a medical situation, right? And so the scores dropped 100 points, but now everything's good. But, you know, we're still got this baggage we're dealing with. Any one of those situations. But they've got money in the bank. They can afford a good monthly payment and they really want to own. They don't want to rent. They don't want to waste their money in some place that'll never be theirs. And I told them to talk to you. Imagine if you're the you that people keep coming to because they know you're the problem solver, you're the fixer, right? Okay. Now you say, hey, yeah, absolutely. Tell me your story. What's going on? Right. And you want to know all the good, the bad and ugly and everything and all the details. And you say, hey, this is something that makes sense. Well, pick out your place, whatever you want. We'll go get it for you. Now, maybe that's you. Now, maybe this is your next investment property that you're going to get. Maybe it's not you. Maybe you're not in the place to buy a house that month. But guess what? Maybe you have a whole database of investors who know what you do, like to help people, right? Like to make some money while they help people. And so you call up one of your friends and say, hey, I've got this awesome situation, here's the details. Okay, so you in that situation are either getting an investment property for maybe 5 to 10% down instead of 20. You already know your cash flow, you already know your people, you already know the property. You know how much you're going to make in a couple of years. Or if that's not you doing it, because maybe again, you can't or you don't want to that month, you've got a database of other people that understand this system and you go to them and they say, yes, oh my God, this sounds great. And then you get a nice little fee for basically being the deal creator and orchestrating all these puzzle pieces and putting all these puzzle pieces together. So imagine doing that 2, 3, 4, 5 times a month, every month. Helping all these different families out, these different singles and couples to get into a home and get what they want or get what they thought they were going to get. Right. Imagine, imagine if they thought they were going to close in 2 weeks. All of a sudden their financing blows up and you get a call from, say, a loan officer that you know in your area that knows what you do and how you solve these problems. And now all of a sudden you're getting a realtor paid again that was about to make zero money. You're getting a loan officer paid in the future because they got to come back and get financing, right? Whether it's a year or two down the road, has to happen, right? So you're basically lining their future pipeline for them. You're helping an investor get a property right now, right? And you're, you know, making, making some profit for you as well because you're the one helping solve all these problems. So it's a pretty crazy system.

It's super crazy. Okay. I want to unpack it a little bit because I think, you know, when I first heard this concept, it took a it's kind of like an SOS. It took a while to kind of like sink in. I mean, it's not that complicated, but like—

No, I get it. It's, there's a lot of layers.

There's a lot. And so, okay, I just want to like, when I have, I've pitched this before unsuccessfully, but I think the, I love the idea and it was kind of the sandwich thing. So just on a very basic level, right? The biggest concern I had from the seller was, and I, my pitch was like, you know, all the things, right? But they were very concerned and I said, hey, it's a tenant buyer. They're very invested, they're not your traditional renter, right? All the points you said, you're trying, you're trying to sell this to a seller, trying to sell it to a seller, or it could be like— and they're in their biggest concern, or if maybe an investor would have this concern, like, you know, these are not traditional tenants. Like, I think it's the traditional landlord fears. Like, what if they don't pay their rent? What if they trash the house? Like, do you get those questions? Or I mean, how do you kind of explain that it's not a traditional renter? They're way more invested.

Yeah, absolutely. I get those questions all the time. But here's the cool thing, right? And this is part of why I shifted from doing the normal way, the old way. In my book, I call it the old way, but the normal way everybody pitches this is going after sellers and doing it this way. Because guess what? Sellers don't want to be investors. If they wanted to, they would, right?

That's a great point, right?

You're trying to make them an Yeah, I mean, I kind of, I don't know, kind of pulled my head out of my butt a little bit after 5 or 6 years of doing this. And I'll be honest, I mean, you know, I wasn't making multimillions doing this, but I was, you know, making a very nice 6-figure income every year on a part-time hustle doing this, having my lending business. And but I'm like, yeah, these sellers, they just want their problem solved now. They don't want to be a landlord. They want to just Right. They just, even though they could make maybe a lot more money, frankly, they don't care. They just want what they want and they want to be done.

Mm-hmm.

So, well, who doesn't always ask those types of questions about what if they don't pay and what if they trash the house and what if people who are already doing it, people who are already landlords, people who already get it, that yeah, it could happen. That's part of the game. It's part of the business. I also know that that's the number one thing that comes out of every rookie's mouth. Is someone who's never even done it is, well, what if this, what if this, what if this, what if this? Yeah. Well, what if, what if the plane crashes tomorrow? And what if I die in the bus to work? Or what if, you know, someone says something bad on TV and all of a sudden you're in World War III? I mean, you can, what if anything, right? So, so investors get the risk, right? Investors want more properties. Investors want more cash flow and investors want to do it as safe as they can, of course, and, you know, be a little risk averse. So that's half the, half the thing is who are you selling?

Right, right, right.

And then to kind of touch on that, let's talk about your leads. Where, where are you getting your leads from that are asking you all these questions? Not the sellers, right? Let's, let's talk on the other side here. Your tenant buyers, we call them your tenant buyers, tenant buyers. Where are you getting them from?

The tenant? Yeah, I mean, I put out ads, right? I did the Facebook, Craigslist, I had the Carrot site and yeah, tons of interest. I didn't completely—

so total strangers that don't know you or trust you.

And, and you know what, honestly, your point, they didn't even know they— yeah, that you're— I see the point you're making, right? They had not talked to a mortgage broker. They had no idea that you had to have an option fee. They hadn't done the pre-qualifying steps, right? They just thought rent to own, like you just pay your rent and it magically pays off your mortgage and you get a house, right?

Yeah. Most people don't get it. And hey, you know, we can't fault them. They just, you know, you've never been told, you haven't been educated. And there is no exact way to do this. There are many ways to do this. But that's the difference is, Here's the thing is I was dealing with a seller who I like, hey, don't you worry, we got this. We're going to get this done in a year, 2 at the most. And then I'm going to solve all your problems today and in the future. And how to get them comfortable with this. And I got to get them to trust me like me. Then I got to go find the tenant buyer and get them to trust me like me. Why wouldn't you trust me? I'm some rando off of Craigslist. Why wouldn't you? Right. You know what I mean? I get a PO box for an address. I mean, like, obviously they don't trust you. Of course they don't, right? And so I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What if I have people who are already talking to people who want to own homes, like loan officers like me and realtors who are dealing with the serious people who will come into an office and who will give you their W-2s and their pay stubs and taxes. And have some money and have some desire and urgency to actually do something. What if I get those people and what if they trust me and like me one time? Because then all of their clients will automatically trust me, like me a lot more, right? Like if you, if you're talking to your doctor, your general physician, and you got something going on with your foot and they're like, hey, go see my guy. He's the best foot doctor in town. It's probably a smarter way of saying foot doctor. Is it podiatrist? Is that what that is? Right?

Yeah. Right? Yeah. That he's, yeah.

I sell houses. I don't sell, I don't sell healthcare, but right. Go see my podiatrist. You're not gonna be like, well, tell me all about your schooling, podiatrist. Right? Like, you're not gonna ask him a million questions. You can say, hey, my doctor who I like and trust told me to talk to you, so I'm all ears. Please help me out.

Mm-hmm.

They've already got you as a captive audience. So I, as part of, you know, part of my coaching program, I, I have as well, I've got, you know, awesome, awesome students and partners around the country where we're doing this, the system. I tell them, I say, guys, we want to go get lead sources, not just leads. Okay? So I'd rather have 10 or 20 or 30 great lead sources, honestly, than 300 leads. Because the 300 leads is just more work. It is evergreen.

It's evergreen. It's that relationship. And you do a couple deals, you're like, yeah, you, you, you're like a, Yeah, it's solid. Yeah, that's so interesting, right? Because lead generating on just, it's just hamster wheel, right? You're just—

It is. And you know, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be doing that, you know, and we do that too here and there, but you know, there's pros and cons of all of it. But I love my referral partners and, you know, my business partners who, especially the ones who I've helped in the past, right? If you help an agent who thought they're going to make, 10 or 12 or 15 or $20,000 commission and all of a sudden that whole deal blows up and they're not going to make it. Maybe that's the one deal that month, right? Maybe that's how they're paying their mortgage that month or their car payment or their kids' college. And all of a sudden they can't. And then you come in like a, like a, like a hero on a white knight and a horse, right? And flames come. I go, no, that's cool. It's like Ricky Bobby stuff. But like, you can come in and do that, right? And help them. And like, hey, we got this, we can take care of you. And now they get paid again and they look like the hero to their client.

Exactly.

And everybody wins. It's, it's so cool. Like people and they, and they, they just, they get it and they're like, oh my God, like where were you, you know, a year ago? I'm like, hey, we were here, but we just, you didn't know about us or whatever. Right? So that's, that's our job as business owners is to get that out there. And the other thing, here's the other thing too. This is a big difference, right? So you're not just getting some rando on Craigslist, which again, nothing wrong with that, but it's harder. It's harder doing it that way.

They're not like prime. They're not in that mindset of like, I have a nut, I want, I, you know, I'm pre— tried to get pre-qualified, couldn't. They don't even— they're so, they're so at baby steps of their journey of homeownership. Right. I think it's a dream versus they've done their homework going to a mortgage broker and providing all the papers and realizing.

Yeah. One, it's someone else and it's someone else that kind of stamp it too and say, hey, no, no, no, I know her. I know this team. I know this group. They're legit. Right? They're here to help you. And I send people to them frequently, or my team does, my office does. Like, wow, your positioning just went way up. Right? But here's the other thing. Would you rather go to some person's website off of Craigslist and look at the 5 houses they have and go, huh, I guess I got to throw down a bunch of money in one of these 5 houses? Or would you rather be told, hey, go pick out what you want? You can have whatever you want, or maybe within some pretty large parameters, you can have what you want. Okay. Well, okay, cool. Right? I'm not going to get shifted and put into this box of having to pick something off of a website that I don't necessarily really want, but I guess I will, but maybe versus get what you want now. Because if you pick it and you choose it, you're very vested in that property.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're actually, it's almost more like a home buying experience. That's what you're doing. You're looking at the market, seeing the, Yeah, just what's out there versus going to the sale bin, right? Yeah, it's on sale and you're like, well, I don't like the color and it's kind of too small or whatever, right?

But yeah, you know, and I give the coffee analogy sometimes, you know, or, or beer if we're at a brewery or coffee if we're at Starbucks. Right. But, you know, see, you're with a friend and, you know, you walk in and your friend's like, oh man, I would, I would love a mocha right now. Sounds so good, right? Love mocha. Ah, but all I got is $2 on me. You know? And you're like, hey, I gotcha. Tell me what you want. Right? I'll go get it for you. Give me your $2 now. But here's the deal, right? I know we're friends, but you know, I'm a capitalist. So, I'll tell you what, if you give me $8.

Okay?

If you give me $8 and you give me $2 of it now and the other $6 tomorrow, okay? Get whatever you want. And they're like, well, that's kind of dirty, but all right, fine. You know, whatever, $8 instead of $5. All good. I want a damn coffee and it sounds good and I want it now. Do you care if they get a chocolate mocha, a white mocha, a latte, an espresso? Whatever it is, is $5. You're going to spend $5 and you're going to get $2 of their dollars right now. So you're only in for $3 out of your pocket. And then tomorrow you get the profit. And if they don't pay you tomorrow, you get the rest of their coffee, which is kind of weird in that analogy. But that's like the house. You get their old cold coffee.

Yeah.

That's the collateral. Yeah.

So I mean, I, this makes sense to me. I think that if you've never lease options, rent-to-own, right? It's a, it's not complicated, but if we'd like walk through, like, you know, the other question I have is, you know, they're, they're already pre-qualified, right? Because they've been through the process. So they're not filling out an application, right? Because they've already kind of been pre-vetted by the mortgage broker because you're getting these warm leads or people that are close to being financeable, but for them to work on something, right? So there's not much, they're pretty well qualified to be in this. Is that, I don't know if I'm asking the right question.

No, no, I totally know what you're asking. That's a very good question actually. So many have already worked with a loan officer, but some haven't. So some just assume they can't qualify. Okay. And actually sometimes they're wrong, right? They're wrong and they can.

Yeah. Yeah.

Other times they assume they can and they are too wrong. And they can't. So, right, you just don't know until you know, until you talk to the right people. But yeah, many times we have an agent, maybe we'll say, hey, they haven't tried, but they don't think they can. And, you know, they tell me the scenario. And again, with my mortgage cap on, right, or our team, right, I'm like, oh yeah, brand new business and you're in the 500s. No, you definitely can't qualify. So, you know, then why are you in the 500s? So we really, we don't have a minimum score. We're really more about the story. Or about the history.

Okay.

Yeah. And it's about the game plan, to be honest. Right. It's about the game plan. And funny when I say that about the credit score, that's the number one thing people guess is the issue is credit score. And I can't tell you how many people just in the last 6 months we've helped get into a home, either their primary residence or maybe an investment property. I've helped people get an Airbnb this way where the bank said no, but we said yes. And the reason the bank said no was not credit, but again, maybe self-employed, maybe too many write-offs, maybe a new business. Maybe they had a couple late payments because of, you know, some event. Again, they got COVID, they missed a couple things. Those 2 30-day lates killed them for a year, right? Or they're going through a divorce and they're disputing some stuff and you got the he said, she said stuff. And you know, it's really about the story. So we want to know what's going on, what's really going on. If no matter what, we're looking at their credit, always we're looking at their taxes, W-2s, pay stubs, bank statements.

Okay.

So we do kind of do our own analyzing. But if there's a loan officer involved, then it's great, right? If you've got, you know, Carl the loan officer who just looked at all their stuff, we can talk with Carl and be like, hey, Carl, let's talk, you know, one-on-one loan officer lingo to loan officer lingo and get the story and really get down what's up. Yeah, you just, you kind of dork out on stuff real quick and then you just know what the game plan is, right?

Okay.

Yeah.

But if they haven't met with somebody, that's a Great question, Dan.

Yeah, we gotta get this stuff. So we, we get all that from them. We review it. I have actually two proprietary reports that we do on every client to really understand where they're at, why they're there, and what needs to get done to get to the finish line where they're getting their own financing and paying our investor or paying us off.

So, well, I love that because you are really coaching people and I think like I've, Totally.

Yeah. I mean, throughout the whole thing, honestly, too.

Yeah. And I think people don't realize like credit, there's a lot of black magic that can go on.

Oh yeah.

Like we did a refi on a number of properties and it was like, okay, take your husband off this property, add you. And we got like a couple points up and then our rate was better. And it was like, I don't know what you're doing, but like you're doing the credit repair and it's, there are things you can do. I mean, I, I don't know, maybe if you're like on the verge of like a better rate, I think there's, and people just don't know that, right? So I love that you're really— people are like, they know what their next steps is to like be that homeowner versus like, I don't qualify, like I guess I'll rent forever, right? Which I think is what you think, right? When you're—

well, if you really want to have your mind blown, so we actually do this, like I just kind of mentioned a second ago, we're starting to do this with investors even and kind of want to be investors. So as funny as I said, in my world, there's a wall. Right. And on one side of the wall are the people that can, and on the other side of the wall are the people that can't. And we just really help both the people that can and the people that can't together with our system, with our vetting, with, with how we do this. Right. But every once in a while there's people that are on the wall and they're like, well, I've got money and I've got this and I've got this, but I still also can't qualify, or I can and I don't want to. So right now I'm working with a couple guys and they're looking at a commercial property. And they're like, this bank has been a freaking nightmare. They're taking months and months and we're just done with it. And we'd actually rather pay more money through you guys. You know, it's nothing, you know, way more. But of course, it's a little bit extra. And we'd rather do that just to get the damn thing done and get into it and get it rolling. Okay, cool. We can do that. You know, we're still going to want to make sure there's an exit strategy that they can get to the finish line. When I say the finish line, a year down the road, 2 years down the road, 3 years down the road, 5 years down the road. But right, you know, we're not giving somebody a 30-year solution or a 20-year solution, right? That's how we do it. Now, I should say always, we're very creative, we're very flexible. But, you know, 9 times out of 10 is we're a bridge just to get somebody the house, the property they want right now that they can't get or frankly don't want to get through the main banking system.

Yeah, no, that, that's really cool. I was just gonna, I've just, you got me thinking like with the rates being so high, are, are you, I think, are you offering them a similar rate, but they're gonna refi out of it obviously in 2 years when the rates come down. So how are you, how is that, how do you structure the, the rates?

Yeah. You know, on some of these kind of goofy programs that are out there right now nationwide, if you get some of these really, you know, niche lenders and brokers, or like, like an ITIN loan or something of that nature. Honestly, I've seen our rates be as good, if not better, than theirs, which is kind of crazy. But, you know, there is a little bit of a premium. So, you know, I'll say this, we're not a bank. We're not just coming in with, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars trying to make 1% on our money. So typically how we do this is we say, look, kind of like the coffee analogy, right? We're going to buy it today at today's price, but you're going to agree to tomorrow's price. 'Cause tomorrow's price of, you know, real estate doesn't just sit there normally, of course, can't, you know, say or predict or guarantee anything, but usually it's not going to sit there and stay the same value year after year after year. Okay. So, you know, what is it worth in a year versus 2 years versus 3 years? Well, more than it is right now, most likely. So there's a little bit of a spread or a premium. And then of course there's an interest rate spread as well. And so interest rate spread, you know, yeah, if we're paying a bank, 7%. Well, we can't give somebody else a 6 and lose money, and we can't give them a 7 and break even, right? But the cool thing is the way our model's put together and when we put it on a spreadsheet, we've got a couple different spreadsheets. I call them the magic spreadsheet because when you put in the numbers, it actually spits out money. It's awesome. But when you put this, the magic spreadsheet together, as cheesy as it is, it really is, you know, we're not that much higher than what they're getting.

Okay.

So it's a couple to a few percentage higher.

That makes sense. I mean, there is, and this, it's such an opportunity, right? Like it's worth paying that for a couple years to get into the house and make it your own. And otherwise you're just renting, right? And well, you're throwing your money away anyway, right?

So, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Also that locking in the price, I mean, it could, you're locking in the price, but it could be worth more than that, right? In the future. Mm-hmm. There could like, you know, there could be even appreciation if it, if it goes higher than you, than, than the price was negotiated, I'm assuming. So there could be a big upside.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many of our clients in the last, 18 months purchased and it was not like a couple thousand dollars more than their price they agreed on, you know, back in 2019, 2020, 2021. It was tens of thousands on certain occasions higher, which is huge, right? Like that literally would've been money burned up, you know, down the drain, out the window if it was rent. Like none of it.

Right. None of it.

Right.

That is just, And to be a homeowner and have instant equity is just— that's the dream, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It is a, hey, we made what we needed to make. It's all good. Could we have made more? Yeah, we could have. But guess what? We all— that's a cool thing. It's very transparent, right? Our system is very transparent. Again, that's why a lot of professionals love to work with us. They know that, you know, there's no games being played. It's very transparent. If it's worth more money, good for them. If it's worth less, yeah, that could happen too. Right. It could happen. But, you know, typically people, when they're getting their financing, they're only putting down 3.5% down, 5% to get financing. So if they've already put down more than that with us, they might already be fine. They might already have enough equity to do it, even if it doesn't go up to what we think it's going to go up to or, you know, the numbers don't move as much as people would like them to move. The other thing is, here's a big, big difference, is we let people fix up and improve the properties. Right. Your landlord's not going to let you touch the house, right?

Yeah.

Send me my check. Don't bug me and don't touch my house. Right. Don't do anything.

Right.

Right. So we let them improve it and upgrade it and make it nicer. You know, we want to know what they're doing sometimes and how they're doing it. I tell people, you don't want to see me swing a hammer because that's no bueno. We're going to have to just burn it down probably when I'm done with it. But if it's being done the right way, right, by contractors or they know what they're doing and, you know, Yeah, make it better, make it nicer. And so you're sitting in your home, it's going to be your home, making it how you want to make it over the course of the next 2 or 3 years, hoping it's worth more money. If it is, great, that's yours. That's your money, your equity.

So ideally you're improving the asset, right? You're adding value to it if you're improving it, right?

Exactly.

So that brings up the question, like, what is it like? I don't know if you call it an option fee. What are you asking these buyers to put down? Is there a percentage? Does it depend on the deal?

Yeah. So if we're doing a lease-to-own, it is an option fee or option consideration, non-refundable, starting at 10%.

Okay.

So starting at 10%. And then we do seller financing as well. And so if we're selling it on a contract for deed, AKA land contract or agreement for deed, agreement for sale, it's like 7 variations depending on where you are in the country. Then, you know, they have equitable title in that situation. So the investor keeps legal title, they have equitable title, they're paying all the taxes, they're paying all the insurance on it, and they're responsible for 100% of the repairs in that situation.

So, I mean, you're just, you're taking the, you're taking the risk away from the investment, right? When you make a buy investment, there's just, it's calculated, right? So many things can go wrong. You could have your furnace blow. I mean, I've had like, all the things happen and you got to pay for that. Your tenants aren't going to— they're not going to pitch in for that, right?

So no, no. Yeah. So it's like, wait, if I could go buy a property and then not have to fix everything and not have to repair it and not get those calls and I know what my cash flow is, that's going to stay the same and I don't need a management company because why is there— you don't need to manage anybody with that.

Yeah.

Oh, and then I know how much I'm going to make when I sell it in 2 years. And if it doesn't work out, I get $20,000, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, $60,000 that's mine legally. That's a pretty good plan, right? And I'll say, you know, in a decade of doing this, over a decade, I think coming up on 12 years now, we have an 85% success rate, which is awesome. So I think the normal average, and I don't really even know if there's any true organization that really, you know, tracks this. But most stats you'll find online, I mean, it's horrible. It's like 10, 20% of rent-to-owns work out and seller financing work out. Yeah. And I think a lot of that is because most people just don't know what the heck they're doing. They don't have a mortgage background or they're not, you know, running them through financing, kind of a pre, pre-approval upfront. That's what we call it, right? We know it's not a pre-approval. Like we know that, but It's like a pre, pre-approval. What needs to get done in the next, you know, 1 to 3 years? And is it likely, right? And is it very realistic? And making sure they can afford it now. So we're doing a debt-to-income ratio upfront with everybody. We're making sure that they can afford it both today and, you know, in the future. Again, with that caveat, of course, is, you know, no one can guarantee you what the heck's going to happen in 2, 3 years, right? I mean, 2 years ago, nobody would have predicted rates are where they're at at all. But, you know, we definitely leave room in there for margin. And it also gives people a couple of years to pay down, you know, additional debt, maybe, you know, get a higher income with, you know, a raise or bonus commission or whatever. So really just with time and a plan, it's amazing, you know, what people can do.

Yeah. And what other circumstance? I mean, like traditionally, right, you go, you go to your mortgage broker and you're— if you call a realtor, they're going to say we need to get you prequalified, right? We need to have proof of funds. Like they're not going to show you a house until you've because it's wasting their time. And normally it's like, well, on paper they'll probably give you some tips, but they're not going to be like, okay, like, you know, they're not going to coach you like that and kind of handhold you and you can't just go shop for a house. It's really, it's a really unique system.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. It's, uh, it is. It is, you know, and here's the cool thing is like, you know, when I'm working with a client, honestly, I really want to look at it from like, let's, we don't want to just help you with this transaction and be very transactional. It's relationship-based. We're going to be helping them and working with them for years to come.

Yeah, yeah.

And so we've got some of our tenant buyers that start with us, right? Like my coffee analogy that the guy at Starbucks that doesn't have the money for a cup of coffee right now and that really nice investor buys them that cup of coffee. But then fast forward 2 or 3 years. Now they've corrected their situation and now they're on the side of being able to help somebody. Right. And now they're coming back saying, wait a minute, I was super grateful and appreciative when someone helped me get a house. Now I want to return the favor and also make, you know, a pretty good ROI in doing that and being, being that guy that's helping out or that gal is helping out. And so they get to kind of go full circle and be on that side of the program.

It's really kind of getting a taste of investing and building a future and all the things that's super cool going from not being qualified to being an investor.

Yeah, well, and so there's, there's a good friend of mine now and he's, he's on my team. His name is Eric. Awesome guy. And Eric started out, he was— so I went, spoke to our brokerage, right? And I think there's like 50 or 60 people in this meeting, told them what we do, how we could help, how they could, you know, do a lot more transactions throughout the year if they knew about us. Right. And think of all these leads that sitting in their fingertips, they don't even realize that they could help. Right. And so he came up to me afterwards and said, hey, hey, man, does this work for agents too? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. He's like, oh my God, really? And he was looking at getting out of his apartment into some other place, and it was a pretty expensive place he was going to move to. And so he ended up doing a rent-to-own through our program and he got a duplex. And so he went from renting to doing a rent-to-own on his duplex in about a year, year and a half. He got a second year of taxes, right? Didn't write off too much, did the right thing, followed our guidance and our coaching. Got his mortgage, paid off the investor. Investor's like, awesome, thank you. Great working with you. And now he owns a duplex. Guess what? Now he's on his 7th unit. So he's on his 7th unit. So he went from renting, kind of bypassing being a homeowner straight to investor. And now he's got 7 doors because of what we're doing. So super, super cool that it worked for him that way.

That's really— I mean, yeah, it's an opportunity that that's really— I mean, and just the coaching and the education, I mean, that's just invaluable, right? That opportunity, that is That's so—

yeah, it's super rewarding. It really is. You know, honestly, we're, we're helping investors, you know, create retirement and cash flow and freedom and, you know, helping their kids pay for college and for them to travel and have, you know, experiences, maybe leave a job they hate. Right. So we're really helping a ton of investors. On the flip side, we're helping people get homes that are going to get shot down and denied and have to go waste their money on another property and feel just really beat up. And it's an awesome circle. But the cool thing is just everyone's super grateful, right? It's not like, it's not like taking, you know, and I'm an agent, right? I'm an agent as well. So it's not like taking that, that power couple out that, you know, oh, we make $1 million and have 850 FICOs and show me 90 houses that all look the same, right? And they just nights and weekends, right? And you're like, wait a minute, I'm a realtor. I got into real estate to have freedom. And instead I'm showing houses all night at night and working weekends and missing your events and yeah, not seeing your kids' sports games. Like, what the hell? Like, so, you know, just FYI, if you're looking for an agent to do that, I'm not your guy. Now, I've got people on my team that would be happy to do that, but I'm not your guy for that.

Yeah, that is why I just feel like real estate is the most creative. You could just do so much good with it and leverage it. And there's so many— it is just the toolbox is so big, right? It's like, it's just amazing. Like, there's so many ways and you really can do a lot of good and help people. And change destinies. That's just what I love. That. Yeah, I just want to ask, so I understand how you're kind of your lead generation, but how are you finding the investor side of it? How are you finding those investors? Is it networking or that's— I don't know if we covered that, but I'm curious.

Yeah, honestly, it's funny, but it's very similar. So a lot of it's networking. A lot of it is other, other agents and lenders who have investor clients. It's a lot of social media. You know, Facebook groups, BiggerPockets, LinkedIn meetup groups, BNI, all that stuff, right?

Okay.

But it's really— I mean, this is a thing too, like when someone's talking to me about, you know, maybe being a partner or a student in our coaching program and, you know, whatever they're doing in their real estate business or any business, frankly. But, you know, usually they come to us and maybe some sort of a real estate business. They've tried wholesaling, they hate rehabbing, right? Maybe they're an agent, but they're just not really, really cutting it, you know, or they've done all of it and they're just like, I don't know what I want to do. I want You're like, well, here's the thing. I'm not like a Captain Leads guy, like drop $2,000 or $3,000 a month on marketing and, you know, blast out a bunch of stuff and screen the crap to get to the good stuff. That's not me. I'm a relationship person. So if you want to go have coffee with someone or go have happy hour, go golfing because you love to golf or go, you know, whatever you like to do with cool people that are doing that, that resonate with you and then say, oh my Lord, whenever this situation comes up and it does happen all the time, I'm sending them to Jesse and Home Solutions Group and his team. Right. And you, you just get that kind of networking environment going on like that. That to me is fun. That lights me up is just, hey, look, I want to be a resource whenever I can, whenever it makes sense. And so, so, yes, a lot of it's just, it is, it's just kind of all the traditional ways and nontraditional ways of networking.

Okay. So I'm curious if an investor has Obviously as investors, you said like, we're not going to ask the silly, like, landlord toilet leaking 2 AM question.

You can.

I mean, I want to ask whatever to debunk these landlord myths. But anyway, like, so what, what are their, I guess, what are their concerns when obviously they're way savvier, but I'm curious to what are their kind of like when you're, and they, I'm sure they understand the value of this, but are there things that they ask or that you kind of have to talk them through?

As the investors?

Yeah, the investor side of it.

Yeah, sure, sure. So I mean, I'd say there's kind of two camps, right? There's a brand new investor who's like, wait, am I kind of heard something about this? You know, this hybrid investing, the slow flip. I've, you know, I've heard of this before. Tell me about it. Tell me more about it. And usually their questions are all about the tenant buyer, right? Well, why am I buying a house for Sally if Sally can't go get a loan? And it's like, well, you have 7 Sallys right now in your rentals. And do you really care that Sally has a 580 credit score now? And right. And what does Sally do in high school? Like, you know what I mean? So sometimes they get really into the story of the tenant-buyer and they want to know everything about them. And, you know, and that's okay. That's totally, you know, that's normal to want to know that, of course. But they just want to really get an idea of like, why are they in this situation, you know, and what's going to change? Which of course, great. That's, that's part of what we're doing. We do a ton of due diligence upfront because we really really, really, really want every single person to win in this. And we set people up to win as long as they do what they need to do. Right. I tell people, I'm like, hey, you've got more control in this than I do, right? Like as the tenant buyer, I'm like, I can't wake up and go to work for you. I can't make your spending habits for you. I can't, right? Like I can tell you what to do and what not to do, but it's on you. But, you know, we follow up with them and we check in with them. So, so the investors kind of want to know about the tenant buyers and their story. Then, you know, the property or the areas that they're looking because half the time we have a property, half the time we don't have a property yet. And that's the other weird thing, right? Yeah, that's the weird thing is we'll send out like we call it a hot deal alert or a slow flip opportunity. And so we'll blast that out to some of our investors that we know are pre-approved and ready for a deal. And it might say, hey, awesome couple looking for a 3-bed, 2-bath between $350,000 and $450,000 in these 3 or 4 cities, right? And then we kind of give them some numbers. And again, the sweet thing with this, it's all reverse engineering. Right.

Yeah.

Your ROI, you still know what your cash flow is based on, you know, the estimated interest rate you're going to get. Now, none of this is concrete, right? It's not set in stone. It's a good estimate and it can be different for 5 different people. Okay.

I'm sorry we're going way over. I'm not very good at like being super good about time, so we can wrap up. I'm sorry.

It's like, no, it's not good. I know.

I know.

Same here. Same here. No, it's all good. All good. We're shooting the shit for 45 minutes first. So I'll get—

remember where we're at. You were midstream on qualifying, I think. Maybe.

Well, no. So our investors want to know about the tenant buyer, right? And their story, their situation. And then they want to know about the property, right? Or the area. Like I said, sometimes we don't even know the property. So sometimes we just know the area. So you might get like a hot deal alert and you know you're going to make $500 to $600 a month cash flow. And you're going to make 18% cash on cash and 45% ROI. You just don't know which property it is yet, right? Right.

Because it might do that in the stock market, right? Like, you can't be like, I'm going to put this money in a stock and return, right?

Yeah. Well, and again, of course, right. You know, I definitely say there's no guarantee on it. There's no guarantee it's going to work out. It might not work out. And, you know, if it doesn't work out, there's a lot of ways we can come back and help with that. You know, like I said, 85% success rate, right? In 12 years of doing this, the 15% that didn't succeed, sometimes it just got extended. Right. And honestly, if it gets extended, you might make more cash flow, right? The purchase price might go up. There might be an extension fee. But, you know, we want them to get the home and we just, you know, want to not lose money and keep making what we should have made. and it just needs to be fair for everybody. So, or sometimes people just say, hey, look, you know, this house isn't for me anymore. I'm walking away. I get that I lose the money I put down and I'm moving, you know, to Texas because my job's transferred me there, or I can't stand the winters and you get the property back. Well, does that ever happen that you get the property back as a landlord? Yeah. Every single time a tenant wants to leave, right? It's called a turnover. Yeah. So what do you fricking do? Deal with it.

And you don't get a big payday when you have a turnover. You just have to clean it.

No, you don't get a turnover. Yeah. You're losing money. So we get a big payday, you know, again, which we want it to work. We truly do every time, you know, but it doesn't, doesn't.

Right. They have to be committed.

You can't.

Yeah. Okay.

Well, exactly.

This has been super fun. It's been very, it's just so creative and I love what you're doing with helping everyone out. Is there anything you want to add before we like wrap up, wrap up the question?

Yeah, no, I mean, I, you know, I, I just, I'm, I'm very passionate about what we do. I've been doing it a long time. I've helped a ton of people on all the different sides. And like you said, it, it's a lot to digest and unpack because like, you know, I look at like, it's, uh, it's, it's like a, a wheel with the different spokes coming out, right? So if you're an investor listening to this and you want to start to grow your portfolio, the slow flip method, right? The hybrid investing that we do, we call it that as well. It's honestly one of the best ways to get going. You know, if you could do 2 properties next year, you could do 4 this way or 5 because it's less money out of pocket. It's more guaranteed numbers. And I say guaranteed in the sense of, you know what your, payments are going to be ahead of time, you know who your people are going to be, right? Not guaranteeing the deal's going to work, but it's way better than just buying something online and hoping you get what you get and then, you know, figuring it out afterwards, in my opinion. And even if it was the exact same numbers, if nothing was different, I'll take the person that's going to be fixing and repairing things and not calling me at midnight for the same dollar amount than the person who is, and I got to go deal with that. Right. So, so if you're an investor on that, I mean, absolutely something that, you know, we'd love to help them get set up with this. If you're trying to get your own first house and can't, I mean, this is a way to get into it. And if you're, you know, currently an agent or a loan officer listening, I'll tell you guys that you're sitting on $50,000 to $100,000 a year in your fingertips. You don't even realize you have— you could be converting it to deals. Looking like the hero, and you probably have no one else in your market that's doing this. So if you're smart enough to go, wait a minute, maybe I should be the one in my market doing this. Now you get all those leads and you're helping all those people make it a much bigger income and not spending probably much more than a dollar more just by knowing what you can do, right? That's the cool thing is we're not having to go out and spend a lot of money marketing. It's just connecting, just connecting what's already there.

So I love it. And you're in all markets. Are there markets that you're not in or?

No. Well, I mean, we're not in all 50 states yet, obviously, you know, we're open to looking at situations all over the place.

Okay.

But no, we're expanding pretty rapidly in 2023 and really, you know, looking to work with a lot more partners and students to do this. You know, don't have infinite funds, don't have infinite time, and you know, It's something where I really get excited helping other people, you know, get in and do this. And you're either making today money or tomorrow money and you're helping people in every situation. So yeah, anyone that you think is a good fit that we should talk to, please send them over. And you know, if you've got investors, you know, that you talk to that are looking for deals and there's no deals out there, this is another thing, right? You can be like, well, what if you knew what the deal was ahead of time, right before you did it? Yeah. Then you blow their mind for a second and then say, what? And then you go into Q&A time. So, right.

I love that. Yeah. So such a win for everyone. Okay. That's great. I will definitely spread the word. So I think it's really creative and I just think, yeah, I mean, to your point, you're not, if you are a broker, you just have these leads sitting there. You're not like spending money to go get them and you're really helping or helping people. And that's, it's like your first house, that is like a big deal, right? If you've never been a homeowner, it is a game changer. That sense of ownership. And it's— I think it's the way a lot of investors get started, right? You get that first house, you build your equity, you roll that into something else, you unlock your equity, HELOCs, all that stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It really starts the domino, you know, and we just were like, so we're just big on the education side and the coaching side and like, here you are now, here's where you're going to be. And, you know, getting all the way down the road from, hey, I couldn't get a house to I got my house. Now it's mine. I'm helping someone else get a house. Now I'm getting my own investment properties and what that can turn into. So yeah, it's cool.

That's a really cool journey. All right. So I know you're big on mindset, like advice. You're very sage. Any life or business advice you'd give someone maybe looking into investing or in the industry?

Oh, you know, I think one of the biggest things that people need to do is Stop and think what they really want. That's one of the biggest things is people don't know what they want. And it's not always easy. It really isn't. Here's the thing. Let's be real. It's almost 2023. There's enough information out there to tell you how to do literally anything, right? There's probably some YouTube video on how to go to Mars if you just follow it. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

The information's out there. There's a ton of great free information out there. I mean, you can, if you're in a very, very tough financial position right now. There's so much good stuff out there and podcasts like yours, an amazing podcast out there for free and YouTube. Right. But I would also say, be careful who you follow. Not everything you hear and see is real. And, you know, at the same point, just know what you want. Right. And, and reach out to resources. But I will say this is I have exponentially grown both in revenue, but in time and happiness and success. And I don't just say revenue, but all of it. When I really started saying I need to invest in being in the right circles and being in the right rooms with other people, right? And this can be even especially dangerous, like if you're already kind of successful, and I say the finger quotes, successful in your area, right? Because you're like, well, you know, I'm, I'm doing well and I don't really need to know a lot more. And it's like, no, if you go into another room and you know, another city at an event and you realize that you're the bottom of the totem pole.

Yeah.

And there's so much more that you like, your, your mind's gonna be blown. And so just be that sponge and, you know, just wanna learn from people who are doing what you wanna do, doing the things and the, and the businesses, right? I think that's, that's big. And so, and sometimes it takes money. Sometimes it takes investing, really investing in yourself. And for someone who dropped out of college, I've spent more money in the last 2 years, I think, than I did in college total. But it has all paid for itself. It really has. Whether it was just one new nugget that I could take and implement to my business, one new connection, or that new connection was connected with someone else and you know, you know, there's just, there's somebody out there that can help you with everything. So it's just getting in those right spaces.

I love that. Yeah. So true.

Which is how we met, right?

Right. Yeah. I know.

We wouldn't even be on this podcast right now.

Totally.

If I didn't take the time and the money to go sit in a room with 45 people, I didn't know any of them. Which is funny cuz usually I know a few people, you know, in something I go to, but I didn't know anybody. A friend of mine's like, you gotta check this out. You've gotta go to this thing. And then, and I'm like, all right, let's go. So I didn't know a damn person. It was awesome.

Yeah, it was not for the faint of heart either. It was quite, it wasn't, it wasn't. Yeah.

No, no, not at all. I'm so glad I did it though.

Yeah, completely. Right. But it was so nervous. I heard, I heard enough stories to know that it was going to be a very, it was intense, intense event. Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Don't wear a white t-shirt. Like, oh my God. What's gonna happen in this place?

Like, what is going on? That's funny. How can I help you? What can I do for you at all? Or any of your, your listeners?

Yeah.

Anything that I can bring you value?

I just, you know, I'm trying to get my word out about my midterm course, but just taking the time to be on this, like, that's really like, that's, yeah, I really appreciate your time and yeah, I'm just trying to build up my, this new course that I have. It's new to me.

So I guess if you know anyone interested in midterm rental Yeah, me and my audience. Yeah.

So I love it. You already had me on your podcast, which I really appreciate. It was awesome. So you did help me.

Okay.

Yeah. Your superpower, kind of silly, but I like to ask that.

Ooh, my superpower. I think seeing the opportunity and vision in, in, in people and in opportunities, right? I think. I think, um, there's, there's, there's like we were talking earlier, visionaries, right? And then there's implementers and you, you gotta have both. Mm-hmm. But, you know, seeing, seeing an idea that you can, you can convert and like, you know, like what I do is, is very creative. Everybody's like, holy crap, that's super creative. You know, how did you come up with that? And, and sometimes it takes, you know, hearing it a few times, maybe from a few different angles, cuz it depends on where you are in the spoke. Right. If you're the investor, there's, there's that kind of dialogue. And if you're the home buyer, there's that dialogue. Right.

Perfect. All right. Just two more things. Yeah. I always like to ask, like, there are, to your point, there are so many resources out there, gurus, like, you know, a podcast or a book that you'd recommend.

Mm-hmm. Ooh. There is a good book that I just read that I love called Who Not How. Very good book. In fact, I think I have it right up here. Okay.

Where is it?

It's close. Who Not How. Great book. Read that. It's all about you can't do everything yourself and somebody wants to do what you don't want to do and they're probably better than you at it and they're excited to do it, right? So Who Not How, great book. And then, you know, a good friend of mine, Chris Harder. He's a great dude. Him and his wife, Lori Harder. She's amazing. They both have a podcast. Hers is Earn Your Happy. Podcast, Lori Harder, and Chris Harder is the Chris Harder Show. But Chris and I started doing mortgages back in our 20s, and now him and his wife are just taking on the world, have beverage lines, huge direct sales, multi-level marketing businesses that they've built, and coaching and mastermind businesses. And so just giving them props because some of the stuff they've put together has allowed me to meet some really, really cool people and just really big visions. So good stuff from them.

Awesome. I read that book too. It was very inspiring. Yeah.

Yeah, right. It's really, it's really, it's like a rereader. I gotta reread that one.

Exactly. And then lastly, obviously, how can people find you, work with you if they want to do a deal, if they want to buy a house, what's the best way to, to get in touch?

Yeah, thank you. I would love to hear from anybody who has any real estate desires, goals, challenges, needs. And the best way is probably to find me on my website. Www.thejessemills.com. T-H-E-J-E-S-S-E-M-I-L-L-S.com. thejessemills.com. When you hear that, do you think of the or the? Like the Jesse Mills or the Jesse Mills?

I feel like it's like the tone. Like the is like—

The tone is the, but then do you think the spelling is like two Es, like Old English?

No, I, no, I have to think. Yeah. The, yeah, no, that's interesting.

The Jesse Mills.

Yeah.

But it's T-H-E. T-H-E. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you think. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

TheJesseMills.com. Otherwise you can basically find me on all the socials, Insta, TikTok, Facebook at The Jesse Mills. At The Jesse Mills as well.

And your podcast?

My podcast. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, The Creative Cashflow Show. So the Creative Cash Flow Show, Spotify, iTunes, or else Android.

Perfect. All the places.

All the places. Yeah. All the places it should be, I guess.

Well, thank you so much. It's been, it's been a real treat and yeah, I will talk to you soon. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you found it valuable. Please take a minute to hit the subscribe or follow button. It really helps other people find us and share it with a wider audience. We also appreciate 5-star reviews. Also, please take a screenshot and tag us on your favorite social platform. We're at Cedar and Porch. The show was brought to you by the Midterm Rental Playbook course, your blueprint to setting up a successful midterm rental. Learn more at themidtermrentalplaybook.com, link in the show notes.