Learn How Anyone Can Use Private Money Lending as a Real Estate Investment Strategy

Hey, welcome to the Brick and Bloom Podcast. Follow along as co-hosts Shona and Pasha document their real estate investment journey, providing transparent and honest views of the process with a healthy dose of inspiration and candor. Let them unpack and demystify the different pieces of investment strategies through expert interviews. Whether it's flipping, multifamily, long-term, short-term, or vacation rentals, their goal is to educate and inspire others. To financial freedom and wisdom. Hello, welcome to the third episode of the Break and Bloom podcast. We're so excited to be here today. We're going to chat about being a private money lender with our special guests Elizabeth and Christie. So we know a lot of people are interested in learning more about real estate private money lending, so we wanted to unpack it a bit. And just full disclaimer, we're not attorneys or CPAs, so this is not financial or legal advice in any way. I'm just a little background. People always think we must have a lot of money or be rich because we have all this capital to buy and invest in real estate. The fact is, we could never make it in this business without our private money lenders. Kudos to them for putting their 401(k)s, IRAs, and savings account money to work for them to make more money. Real estate investors and private money lenders make the best team. So let's get started.

Thanks, Shona. We are so excited to introduce our guests today, Christie and Elizabeth. We have had the fortunate advantage to partner with both of these women, and they have been able to really help us achieve some of our goals. So let's meet them. So Kristi, let's kick it off with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and how you got into investing.

Hi. Well, thanks for having me on the show, Pasha and Shauna. My history is in the IT industry, so I spent over 30 years in a career in IT. Both working for a large vendor, software vendor, as well as going off in my own business to start a technical conference in IT. The whole time that I was working for others, I had an interest in real estate, but I really didn't know how to go about entering the market. And I also didn't have a whole lot of time when I was raising 2 kids and working a full-time job. So when the opportunity arose to get some education during COVID when I had extra time, I was also at a stage in my life where I was looking to do some new things. I really jumped on that. And, um, that's where I really felt like I gained enough foundational knowledge to feel more confident about entering the real estate market. And then it became a question of how I was moving a lot back and forth between two locations. And so I did have some cash available for investing, didn't feel real great about it all being in the stock market. And so I really liked the idea of diversifying my, um, assets. By investing in real estate. And so that's how I got into the real estate private money lending scene. So great, thanks Christy.

How about you, Elizabeth? Tell us a little bit about your story.

Well, um, I grew up in Iowa, moved to Colorado when I graduated from college, and I worked in business about 35 years of a variety of different types of jobs. But I've always had a side business. I've done probably 6 or 7 different side businesses over the years just for fun and also spending money. It was always helpful to have extra spending money. And I've always had an interest in real estate, probably an extraordinary interest, which was fanned by the fact that I have bought 9 houses and still have 3. And I found out that I could make money at buying my own house and then selling it later. And I did this several times. So I've really enjoyed real estate, but I didn't know that I could be a private money lender. That's really what I'd like to have done because I wanted to help people with the money that I had and also make more money than you could make in the bank. And I didn't know I could do it, but I'm starting to do it.

Well, Elizabeth, you actually hit the nail on the head. I think for our audience, it would be great to hear how you guys would define private money lending, because I'm sure a lot of people are scratching their heads like we all, like, just maybe stumbled upon it as well. But what is private money lending, Elizabeth?

Well, it is For me, it is taking the extra money that I have that's not invested any other way and investing in people who are doing flips and buy-and-holds and helping them with the money I have and getting a premium for the, for the interest because the interest is so much more than what you could make in other ways. And For example, your flip was 4 months. So I loaned you my money for 4 months and I'm getting it back with interest.

Thank you for that. How about you, Kristi? How would you define private money lending?

I think really similar to what Elizabeth said. I think you are taking your personal assets, whether it be cash that you've saved or whether that be your IRA and other retirement funds, and you're investing, and I see it like you said, Elizabeth, you're investing in a person as much as you're investing in a property. So you're really looking for a partner to, you know, help, help, as you said, Elizabeth, make their goals come true, but also help in your kind of financial stability as well. So I agree with everything Elizabeth said, and it's both an investment in people as well as an investment in property.

Oh my gosh, I love that so much. And actually, I never thought of it that way.

It's so true.

The partnerships and the bonds you build with your team, and we have with each of you, has been really kind of above and beyond, I think, what we expected. And just to clarify, I think sometimes hard money lending gets confused with private money lending. I just wanted to kind of decouple that a bit because in our industry, hard money lending really comes from an institution. Institution. And sometimes I think, you know, private money lenders are called hard money lenders, but just for the audience's sake, we really see them as different. You know, hard money lending comes from an institution and definitely does not have that, you know, personal— you can have a personal relationship, but it's not as, I would say, as deep as like working with an individual private money lender. So private money lending is just, you know, regular people wanting to loan out their money and have some funds that they can invest into a project with a person, another person. So thanks for sharing that.

Sure. All right, so we'd love to unpack a little bit. There's obviously traditional investing, like the stock market and whatnot, and IRAs versus— we'd love to know how you feel the differences between the traditional investing and private money investing. Elizabeth, why don't you take that one?

Okay, well, I feel there's a great difference, and part of it is the hands-on that you're doing. You're making all the decisions about what— where you put your money. You're making all of the income. You have very few expenses, if any, but you do have some, but not very much compared to paying someone else to invest your money into the stock market, which goes up and down. Now the, the housing market goes up and down too, but you have a shorter time to invest with doing private money lending, usually less than a year and often just a few months. And so you have more control, I think, over your income. Yeah, I, I think that investing in land is never a bad idea.

For sure. Yeah, it's a classic. I love that, that just that you like, you emphasize that you have the control, you're not at the mercy of what the market is thinking. Yeah. So, uh, Christy, what's your take on it?

Yeah, very similar. I mean, I do think it's important to have diversification. That was one of my big motivators. So I do have money in the stock market, and I view that as a long-term investment, and you're really at the mercy of the market, which any given day, you know, Russia can invade Ukraine and also not doing so good. So I do like the idea of having this diversification in real estate. And also, as Elizabeth mentioned, you analyze the deal yourself, you get a real hands-on feel. If you think it can make money, you do have to work at it and you have to gain knowledge. But through that knowledge, you gain confidence as to your investment. And then I also like that short-term cycle, you know, the kind of the cycle of it where you can kind of keep moving and investing in new opportunities, whereas, you know, the stock market really is a long-term investment. And as Shona mentioned earlier, you do have a security behind the investment. So at least for the value of the house as it's purchased, you're you've got a security. The area that's probably more at risk is the construction loan, and there are ways to kind of mitigate that as well. So, yeah, that's how I see it.

Thank you.

I just want to add something that Christie said is that when you said, you know, you analyze deals, I know, like, for me, it was so great to use Christie as a sounding board because you do all your analytics, but she's coming in from a different perspective because it's like, obviously, she is protecting her money and wants to make sure, you know, it's there's collateral attached and it's all protected. And I felt it was such a great way to just collaborate on the success of this project and to make sure that we crossed T's and dotted I's. So thank you for that, Kristi. It was really valuable part of the experience.

To add to that, when I analyze a deal, it wasn't just whether or not I could get my money back if something went wrong, but I really looked at it through the eyes of, can Pasha be successful with this as well? Because I'm relying on Pasha for success. She's the avenue and the person executing on all of it. So if she can't be successful, then I'm not going to be successful. And so you really have to look at it as, is there— is this deal, you know, have the right analytics to make sure everybody gets what they need out of it when it's done?

So yeah, that was great.

It was a great process.

To follow on that, we've kind of touched on a little bit that we'd love to just kind of touch on the benefits of being a PML, again, in whatever framework you want versus traditional or just how the experience was. Kristi, how about you start with that one?

The benefits, number one, working with a partner. I really like working as part of a team. And even though I wasn't doing the day-to-day execution, I really felt like we were a team on a project. And that's very appealing to me. Obviously, there's financial benefits. If the deal goes well, you have the opportunity to make a nice interest rate on your money that you may not have had invested. It might be in the bank or in the stock market and may or may not be doing as well. I like, again, that direct— the directness of the opportunity, the fact that you get to analyze it yourself. Gaining your knowledge and you're making an informed decision. Whereas with the stock market, like we said, half the time you don't even know what's going on in the companies you're investing in, right? So those are some of the benefits. I like the short-term nature of it, as we talked about. So you're not necessarily having to make a long-term commitment with your funds. And I like seeing the progress, you know, seeing things move forward towards a process that's going to have a finish line. I, I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.

So, Elizabeth, I really enjoyed your flip with, with the mid-century modern home because I grew up in one, and, uh, it was just so exciting. I found it extremely stimulating to see your videos, and you were very good at communication so that I always felt comfortable that you were getting what you needed done. And if there was ever a time that I needed to do something, you were right on it. And I tried to do the same so that I wouldn't hold you up with anything.

Appreciate it.

Go ahead.

Actually building on that, you know, what were some of maybe some of your concerns and fears? Like, you know, we'd love to hear some, you know, maybe hesitations you guys had. Going into it or during the process? Elizabeth, maybe we'll start with you.

Okay. Okay. Well, I have— I've done your flip and one other one which is in process, and it's night and day in terms of communication. You were so good to keep me informed. Of course, put on, on Facebook, the various stages that you were in. And with this other one, I've only been able to talk to the person once or twice, mostly text and very little of that. So I don't know how it's going, and that's starting to make me nervous. Not really, because I trust this person, but on the other hand, you know, be nice to know a little bit more. So that was probably my biggest concern, was keeping up with the project and knowing what was going on. So that was— and that was the most fun for me too.

Yeah, yeah. You know, at the end of the day, people are basically giving somebody else their money that they've earned over a period of time, right? And that can be very, very scary. I mean, I know my husband was a little less confident than I was as I was handing over a check. 'Cause we hadn't met, Pasha. And, you know, so there's this fear of, you know, number one, I haven't done it before. I don't know how to necessarily protect my assets. I wanna help this person, but I also don't wanna lose my shorts in the deal. And you hear all kinds of, you know, horror stories about how people will take other people's money, right? And so my biggest question was, how do I protect my asset? And I was lucky enough to find a good lawyer in Portland who really took some time to educate me. And when you really look at this, you're providing money in kind of two categories. One is money towards an asset. And so how much is that asset worth on day one? And are you paying, you know, are you getting a good deal on that asset? That's really up to you to analyze. You can't rely on the borrower. I mean, they're going to do their own due diligence, but at the end of the day, you have to do that due diligence yourself to feel confident that if for some reason the deal goes bad and there's a foreclosure, that you can take that asset and you can sell it for the price that was paid for it, at least, so you're not losing money. And then there's the construction loan, and that one gets a lot more complicated because you're not just relying on Pasha, you're relying on Pasha's team. And that is often a very difficult thing to analyze when somebody's first starting out because they're working with new relationships. And what I learned through my lawyer is that in that construction loan component of the loan, you really have to make sure you're reducing your risk with the contractors. So only pay them ideally when the work is done, or if they need a deposit, make sure you're managing that to the smallest amount necessary because the fear is they could take the money and run and not do the work. And if that happens, then both Pasha and I are not gonna have a good deal.

Right.

So, you know, he advised me about things like making sure we get lien releases from the contractors and getting them at various stages of their work, not just at the end in some cases. And what that does is that reduces their ability to come back on the property and ask for more money. And so when the work is done, get the lien release, you know, pay them their amount, and then you have proof that there's no additional liens against the asset. And so with some of those processes in place, it reduces that risk of, am I going to lose my money based on somebody I maybe don't even know? And so that's where my concern was, and that's what I really wanted to try to protect against, and for myself and Pasha.

Well, I think that's a great segue to what advice would you guys give somebody who's considering being a private money lender? Christy, what would you say?

Well, I think, you know, I think some of the things I've already mentioned. Number one, get some education about how to analyze a deal because that's really the most important part of making a decision to invest. And then get some education about how to manage the process. There's a lot of different ways that people approach things. Some people get the construction loan right up front, others give it as the work is complete. And so there's there's different ways that you can educate yourself to try to protect your assets. And so getting as educated as you can is the best advice I can give. And then, you know, really ask a lot of questions of the person you're going to work with so that you know that you have a good compatibility in terms of how you work together and you have faith in their desire and ability to kind of get the job done because you are relying on them.

Thank you. How about you, Elizabeth?

Well, I agree with everything she said, and I was thinking I would advise people to make a very close friendship with the bank because the bank can help you do all of the money movement, which really saves a lot of anxiety on my part because I haven't done very much of it yet. And so, I go into the bank and I have two people that are always delighted to see me and we sit down for as long as it takes and do the work. And then they make copies and they check my accounts. And so, they're very good at customer service. So, I would say make special connection with the bank and then have some way to vet the people. That you lend to. And I made a decision to only lend to the Women's Real Estate Investment Network because there's plenty of people there. I don't need to look outside that network. And that I feel more comfortable with the ethical values that the people in the Women's Real Estate Investment Network have. No, I appreciate it.

It's great investing in women, right?

Right.

Amazing.

All right.

Yeah, I love that. I just want to emphasize, I feel like all these points, and I think it's important that whoever you invest with, that they make the business case and they present it to you in a way, and all the numbers, you do due diligence. But like, we always make a deck, we always lay out our vision, and I just say it's a big decision for everyone. So I love that you guys really emphasize that, like, do your own due diligence, but also make sure the person coming to you has run their knows the value of the house before and has to do repair, kind of knows what style they're going to do, has all the relationships. Because it is— I'll be honest, I'm new to flipping. It is a journey. And it's so magical to see it like come out the other end. But it's also— it's a little emotional.

Yeah. How do you make the sausage? Nobody wants to see it.

Exactly. When you walk in and it's just this, you know, everything's torn up in demo mode, you're like, I know what's going to happen. But yeah, then you get it staged and it's just It's hard to sell because you kind of fall in love with the house during the way. Yeah.

One thing I would say is the fact that I do think it's really important to get that documentation from the borrower upfront because it shows that they've thought through the process because it's hard to know what somebody else knows and whether they question things. And nobody knows what they don't know. Right. And so by asking for that documentation, It will demonstrate to you how much they've thought through the process. And still, there's going to be surprises, right? You should always expect that there's going to be some level of surprise, even if they've gone through all the analysis. And I think also what Pasha and I have talked about, and I'm kind of curious, Elizabeth, how you address this, but Pasha's team is probably as important as Pasha. Because we went through some experiences where the contractor was less than stellar. And probably I think there were some additional costs involved because of it and forced her a lot of, you know, put on her a lot of stress. So I don't know, you know, if there's a best practice where, and I did actually end up interviewing her contractor, but, you know, should we be interviewing the teams of the borrower? I don't know if that's the best practice or not. You really don't get to make the decision 'cause Pasha has to be the one to work with that person. But, you know, you can provide insight and that's probably the biggest risk factor right there is that contractor. Did you do any interviewing there, or do you—

No, I didn't. I'm, I'm in Florida, so it's across the country. Yeah, so, uh, no, I didn't do anything like that. I just trusted Shona and Pasha, and I was really taking a risk because I didn't really do as much checking as maybe you were able to do.

Yeah. Well, it's an interesting— once you get the relationships, it becomes easier, you know, once you found that really good contractor and you've got different relationships with title companies. And but the hardest part, I think, is those initial relationships, finding them, establishing them, and finding those trusted partners, you know.

Oh, I really like the title company. They, they were right on it. So I was both of them. So I was really happy with them.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. There's so many different people who play a really important role to the success of this project. And to your point, Kristi, it's like you can kind of only see the face of it and there's a whole team behind it. And, and, you know, being new investors, it's like it was, you know, definitely, I know, put a lot on my shoulders. I was so, you know, just aware of your contribution, your investment, and that just— I think that gravity was what motivated me to, like, you know, vet everything. And, you know, it's different than a bank because you're like, okay, but still, like, having somebody's personal assets in the project, it's a totally different level of stress. And I think, you know, importance given to to the money that's lent. So, um, yeah, I mean, again, we can't— you know, you guys made these projects come, you know, to fruition, and we wouldn't have been able to do it without you guys. And that's what I love. It really is a partnership, um, and it's— I, I hopefully you guys see it, it really is a win-win, you know. I, and I think we really want to stress that for the audience, is like, it's— if you go in it together, it definitely deliver success. But if everybody's kind of working on an island and— right, it, it just doesn't— it's not as seamless and there's definitely more room for error. So, right. All right, well, should we bring this home?

Yeah, I just want to wrap it up and just say, like, just for me, having Pasha as a partner has been great. So when you're looking to invest, if, you know, looking at the team, to everyone's point, but it's just been, yeah, really great to have the right partner to work with. So, you know, that makes a big difference, I think. So yeah, I agree more.

I mean, having to kind of just more people to kind of bounce things off. And especially if you're— I think also too, if your values are aligned and you see things the same way, it just makes everything work easier. And I think that's probably a good question to ask you guys, like, what are your values and that you— that drives you and your business? How about you, Elizabeth?

Um, well, all I have comes from God. That's the way I look at it. And so I'm, I'm only making decisions about his money. And his possessions. And I want to use these gifts very well. And I also want to help people with the gifts that I have because God has given me enough that I don't have a serious concern about income at all. And so, I figure God is in charge and he directs my path. And that's how I found Women's Real Estate Investment Network. That's how I found you, to. That's how I found my renter, who is a disabled person with a bankruptcy and couldn't find a place to live. And I said, I don't care about that. I just want you to pay the bill. And he says, fine. And it's worked out now, 2 years. So, that's my philosophy is I'm just handling God's money.

That's beautiful.

It's a great way to look at it. Yeah, I have similar philosophy, and I really— I don't know why, but in my life, things have always happened for a reason. Whatever I've needed has always been placed in front of me, and it always seems to be at the right time. Um, doesn't mean it's always been a fun journey, but, um, as long as you take the next step— that's my philosophy— take the next step of what's been put in front of you. And to do that, you have to quell your fear, and fear, I think, is not, not godly. So I try to, um, push the fear aside and take the step that seems to be presented in front of me. And for whatever reason, you know, it has always worked out. Trust is a big thing for me. I mean, it probably is my biggest trigger. If I can trust somebody, and I seem to know fairly quickly if you can trust somebody or not, then that in my mind is the basis of the, of a relationship that can be successful no matter how many mistakes are made. And so to me, having trust with the people I work with is the first thing I look for. And with that, you can do a lot of great things. I love that.

I agree.

And to follow that up, thank you guys for your honest kind of answers. That's really inspiring. And I feel like we're all very aligned. So if you guys have— we'd love to know who the person that's influenced you the most, like in your life, or maybe on this path. It could be a friend or, you know, someone else. Um, Christy, why don't you take that one?

Okay. Let, um, you know, that was a question that was a little hard for me to answer. And as I really thought back over the years from a business point of view, um, I was lucky enough to right out of college start in a company called Great Plains Software that was later acquired by Microsoft. And the leader of Great Plains was probably the person who influenced me the most from a business perspective. And the reason He influenced me the most. A couple of key things. Number one, he was very value-driven. So he wasn't building a company to get rich. He always said that his biggest asset was his employees. Everything that that company made came out of the hearts and minds of his employees was a statement that he used often. And he invested in his employees and trusted them. And he was always very value-driven. So we always, you know, did food drives and I mean, just whatever we could to contribute to the community while learning about business at the same time. He was a very smart business person. And he hired a lot of women, which was not common in that day necessarily, as leaders, not just as doers, but as leaders. And so he was really just a— I didn't realize it at the time, but he was a great, great mentor. And he gave lots of opportunities to his employees. He ended up providing the opportunity to buy stock in the company to his employees, just really giving in his success. And so he— his name is Doug Burgum. He's actually the governor of North Dakota right now. Oh, wow. Very successful man. And then the other people, which is very probably odd, but my kids, they went off to college and they got all kinds of worldly views and, um, that were somewhat different than mine. He brought them back to me, and we, you know, have all expanded our view of life and people in the world as a result of it. So I'm very grateful that they've expanded my thinking in life. I love that. I love that too.

Elizabeth?

Um, well, I had trouble with this question and also thinking about it, but I finally came up with— well, I have lots of heroes, but I finally I finally came up with the person that I trust the most and was the most influential, and that was my mother. And she was a National Merit Scholar in high school. She would be 100 this year if she were alive. And at that time when she was in high school, her parents did not believe in girls going to college. They considered that a waste of money. And so she worked a whole year after high school to earn the money to go to a year of college. And that's all she had until she was in her 40s and she started going back to classes and she finished college and she started work in her 50s. And she raised 4 kids. My dad, you know, was very busy kind of person. And so she was the most influential in our lives. And I learned a lot of determination from her. And I also became more creative because she had— she was always sewing. She taught me how to sew. You know, she was always interested in families and children, and I have those same interests. And so, she has influenced me, not so much in real estate because she didn't really understand that, but in just life.

Wow, that's very inspiring. Thank you for sharing that. Um, yeah, we just have a couple more questions. Um, I think part of real estate or life is mindset, right? And continuing education. So we always like to ask if there's like a podcast you listen to, a book or something else that maybe kind of keeps you on your toes and keeps you learning. Christy, if you want to answer that one.

Um, so my favorite podcast is not a business podcast. It's called Sharon Says So. She's a— I don't know if you've heard of her, but she's a— she was a government history teacher and a high school teacher, and she got out of that profession and started doing podcasts. So she does a lot of history-related podcasts telling a lot of stories about the history in America. She picks different states and tells a story about the state, which I find very informative and educational. I love it in the form of a story because I hated reading the history books and memorizing dates and whatever, but when it's a story, it's so much more interesting. She also brings on other speakers. So people have written great books, whether it be self-help books or how to, you know, with during COVID all the mental, you know, challenges we've had. So she'll bring on people on how to kind of maintain your, your mental health. And so I just really appreciate the kind of the breadth of her podcast. It's never political. It's always informative. And so she's my favorite podcast. I did read Rich Dad Poor Dad recently. I bought it probably 20 years ago. I finally read it and I found that to be very— a good book to help shift your mindset about money and how you go about looking at money in your life. And then recently, I just wanted to mention I bought a tax book from BiggerPockets. If we're going to get into real estate, we have to understand the tax implications. So I bought one called The Savvy Real Estate Investor: Tax Strategies for the Savvy Real Estate investor, and that's really just educate myself on kind of taxation and how it's looked at by federal and state governments and how you need to be strategic about that. So those are great.

Yeah, I'm definitely writing that one down. Those are some good ones.

I like Rosalie Quinn's The Wire Life. For real estate topics. I think that's an excellent podcast. I write books, and so Self-Publishing School has really helped me write my first book, which is coming out next month. I took a home staging course from the Staging Diva in Toronto, and that was a very helpful course, and I do home staging. And then I just recently got a book called Part-Time Real Estate Investing for Full-Time Professionals by Derek Clifford, and he is quite thorough in the way that he writes everything. And so I'm learning a lot from that book.

Oh, great.

Nice. All right. That's great resources.

Thank you.

I'm going to check some of those out. Just, I think last question here is kind of a fun one. What's your secret superpower? Kristi, you can start.

I'm not sure I have one. But if I were to look back at life and say, well, what has caused me to take the journey that I have, I think I kind of summarize it as intelligent risk-taking. And I ask a lot of questions. So the way that I become intelligent about my risk-taking is I am a question asker. My friends would be like, oh my God, stop asking so many questions. But that's how I learn. And that allows me to take risks in at least a somewhat intelligent way. You know, I don't take risks like gambling because I don't have any idea how I could be successful at that. But I am willing to take risks in business and in my personal life and other things because I'm able to gain some level of knowledge that makes me feel comfortable. And I think risk-taking is important to grow. And then it just leads to more and more kind of growth in your life.

So yeah, I think people are often kind of afraid to ask that question, but usually those other people have that question. So I, yeah, I call investing like calculated risk, right? It's very, um, I'm very risk tolerant, but you have to run your numbers. It's a business. Yeah. So thank you. I love that. Elizabeth, how about you?

Well, um, I'm very creative. I always look for other ways of doing things, probably maybe too much. I have a strong business sense and a strong sense of personal responsibility. And I also have a strong sense of ethics, doing the right thing at the right time. I try my best. And then, you know, I have an outrageous interest in real estate, which is really not explainable.

I can relate.

HDTV. No, I'm just kidding. Cool.

Yeah. To wrap it up, I don't know if you guys want to have a way people can connect with you. If not, no worries. But if you're on social and want to share your handle or anything, or something like that. We always like to share that.

Well, I'm on the Women's Real Estate Investment Network and on Facebook, and I'm also on Facebook just in general, so you can find me there. I have a Gmail account. I don't know if you want that on here though.

Whatever you're comfortable sharing. We'd love to. Yeah. When your book comes out, we'll definitely link to that. So send us a link. Oh yeah, that'd be really fun to see that.

Okay. My Gmail account is Well, I'll tell you the one for the book.

Okay.

It's Fallon, F-A-L-L-O-N, thetravelingcat@gmail.com.

And I'm on— I'm not a big social media person, but I am on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn, and I believe I have an Instagram account that I never use, so So you can find me there. And I am part of the Real Estate Women's Real Estate Investment Network. So anybody involved in that would find me as part of that group, as well as the Private Money Lending group on Facebook that was started. Elizabeth, I'm assuming you're part of that as well.

I'd like to be. I haven't figured it out yet, but I want to join that.

Okay, well, I can send you some info.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, thank you guys so much. This has been really, really fun. Um, yeah, thanks for sharing everything. And I think that's a wrap. Posh, anything to add?

Yeah, no, we just, um, we really appreciate your authenticity and being so genuine and transparent. That's, I mean, and that's why we gravitated towards you guys. And thank you for sharing your story. I know it's gonna be super valuable to everybody listening. So thank you guys.

Thanks for hosting you ladies.

Thank you. Thanks. Bye. Bye.