Mastering Mid-term Rentals, B2B Real Estate, and Co-Host Strategies with Will Dotson

Yeah.

And now mind you, just to break down numbers, cause I love receipts and numbers and just being realistic at the end of the day, for example, you know, that property in particular, there's actually, I'll use a, I'll use a better example cause this is a newer example here in Nashville. Here in Nashville, we have a property operating expense, everything comes out to, and if we were including utilities, internet and all that. Comes out to right at $4,000 a month for us. Mm-hmm. Get a call, oh, it's an 8-month contract. Someone's house or her house burnt down. We were able to negotiate and say, okay, that's our expenses, $4,000, our bottom line. We were able to negotiate a contract for $7,000. And that's us providing our management services 24/7. It's not just, oh, I get to make 3 grand a month off of this one property, but No, essentially it's a business to business contract. It works out. If I was to unfurnish it and rent it as a long-term rental, I wouldn't make anything. I would be losing on it. So there's properties like that to me is yeah, that's what encourages you to go that B2B route. And there's a lot of people out here, unfortunately, that just don't know how to navigate those waters and they're losing money. And they're just, oh, I gotta, I have to sell it.

Welcome to the She's Got Assets Real Estate Investing Podcast. I'm the host, Shona Leppis. Follow along as we unpack and demystify real estate investment strategies through expert interviews and personal experience. From how to find off-market deals to creative financing to long-term and midterm rentals, we aim to educate and inspire others to gain financial freedom and generational wealth through real estate. And as always, please subscribe so you never miss an episode. We really appreciate reviews. It helps others find us. And it just helps us get found. Welcome everyone to the She's Got Assets podcast. Today I have a super special guest on today. I have Will, Will or William, I should have asked you, sorry, Dodson.

I will.

We met at the Midterm Rental Summit with Jesse Vasquez. It was amazing. Just amazing people, so inspiring and just really great connections. And you guys, like midterm is definitely on the map. It's really exciting. So Will, I'm so excited to nerd out with you on midterm. We already started before we started recording. So yeah, just give me the nutshell, like the windy path that got you into this niche and real estate in general.

It started off with meetups. Wife and I, we bought a property, Southern California, and it was going to be our forever home. And then we decided to move out and just buy another place. In Nashville because we both love country music and we didn't know if we were going to sell our property or not. It's a larger property, 4,400 square feet with a pool. It was supposed to be our forever home. We decorated it nicely. I went to a meetup, met Rafa Loza and made connection with him and Jesse. I joined Jesse Vasquez mentorship and simply by being in the right room, and asking people who were already doing what I wanted to do and didn't even know. I just knew that my HOA was 30-day minimum and I was like, oh, that's, that's monthly. I need to be around monthly rental. I need to be around this world. So podcast, books, Zeonah McIntyre, you name it. Yeah. And I got in the room with Jesse and within 3 days I had that property because it was already decorated nicely. Like I said, it was supposed to be a forever home. but it was just a couple little things to make it pet friendly, putting up, getting extra bowls and beds and really taking those, making those final little details. We launched it and it has been what allowed me to quit my 9 to 5 instantly and doubling down on just that, betting on myself and working 9 to 9 for myself. So that first family that went in there, what is what inspired The name of the company that I started after that, Nova Havens. Nova means new in Portuguese. So New Havens for families. Talking with the family that, the first family that moved in, talking with them, hearing their pain points and realizing, oh, this is bigger than just having a furnished rental for rent. It's so many lives that are affected with just a decision saying, I'm going to rent my place out to insurance contractor, whoever, but getting a family in there and seeing that there is so much more to it and then diving deeper in that. So I doubled down, wife doubled down. We decided to start the, the company Triple Down here in Nashville, and now we're buying and investing and growing and meeting great people like you at summits.

Nothing like finding your tribe, man. There's just something, just like, you just connect. All right, first of all, that's just amazing that the fact that you kept your property and found this niche. I think there's a big misconception that midterms, everyone like, it's a traveling nurse. And so it's not, it's a lot more. So I'd love to have you unpack that a little bit for someone that hasn't maybe heard of this niche. And I think we're, we're helping people first and foremost, and we are in the hospitality business, and I think that's so important. So I love that you mentioned that already.

Yeah, no, when I got into it, I thought same thing. I was like, oh, we could put, it's a 4-bedroom house. So I was like, oh, we could put 4 travel nurses in here. But the thing is, you really don't know what you're getting yourself into in the beginning. You can watch the videos, you can watch this, and you— the best thing I tell people now that ask me, hey, I want to get into midterm rentals, and let's say they have 2 properties that are investment properties that they're doing long-term. And then the first conversation is, let's look around those properties and see what businesses are coming What, who are we pulling from? Are you next to a metro? Like, where are you at? I had a phone call today where the guy was asking me just that. He was like, you think this is a good midterm rental? I said, send me the address. He sent me the address. It's in the middle of nowhere, but it's right next to a water park. It has a hospital down the road. And I said, hey, this is who's going to be staying here. It's in the middle of nowhere, but you have these companies. That's your business to business. It's very simple when you break it down that way. Business to business. What businesses can you serve in your local area? Definitely.

Yeah. And I think that the asset type, like your property, like most people's reaction to me, that's too nice to be a rental. It's got a pool. It was your forever home. It's too fancy. Someone's gonna all the things, they're gonna trash it. The toilet's gonna leak. It's too— it's gonna explode or something. Like, I bet people love having a place to come to when they're facing that kind of stuff.

Yeah. And now mind you, just to break down numbers, cause I love receipts and numbers and just being realistic.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, for example, you know, that property in particular, there's actually, I'll use a, I'll use a better example cause this is a newer example here in Nashville. Here in Nashville, we have a property. Operating expense, everything comes out to, and if we were including utilities, internet and all that, comes out to right at $4,000 a month for us. Mm-hmm. Get a call, oh, it's an 8-month contract. Someone's house or her house burnt down. We were able to negotiate and say, okay, that's our expenses, $4,000, our bottom line. We were able to negotiate a contract for $7,000. And that's us providing our management services 24/7. It's not just, oh, I get to make 3 grand a month off of this one property. But no, essentially it's a business to business contract. It works out. If I was to unfurnish it and rent it as a long-term rental, I wouldn't make anything. I would be losing on it. So there's properties like that to me is, yeah, that's what encourages you to go that B2B route. And there's a lot of people out here, unfortunately, that just don't know how to navigate those waters and they're losing money and they're just, oh, I gotta, I have to sell it. So I appreciate different operators in this space because at the end of the day, we're just finding solutions for our investments and others' investments and so on and so forth.

Yeah, for sure. There's, I, I think the list is very long of why we all love midterms. But I think like in an expensive market, which we are both in, right? I don't know Nashville super well, but it's very hard to make a property cash flow and you're providing a service. So I, there's just so many things about it that like, yeah, you look at those numbers and you think the 1% rule, that doesn't, it just doesn't pencil, right? And so you're just like, ah, I think that sharing those numbers are, and it's also, I think it's also really the service of putting a family up and making them comfortable and providing for them and knowing they can extend as they need to versus having to book an Airbnb that gets with someone behind them and all that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. One of my favorite things is getting in contact with the family. It's a little bit hard sometimes just because I, I work with different providers and for anyone who is new to the insurance world, essentially you have your insurance company, whether State Farm, Allstate, Travelers, and then they at times, majority of the time, work with the third party relocation company, THD, Alacrity, now CRS, ALE, so on and so forth. And then there's providers like yourself, myself, that we assist those relocation companies. But every now and then you have a family that reaches out. Like I have a family that I'm helping right now in Southern California that they sent an inquiry for one of my properties out there. and I keep it available for that reason, just for lead generation. And so I see the inquiry come in, he's looking for a 5-month stay. And because of the inquiries that I've gotten in the past for this specific location and property type, it's pretty easy to identify what they're asking before they even— hey, is this property available? And it's like a 4-month booking and I'm like, okay, by any chance anything happened to your house? Yeah, absolutely. And go, oh, okay, 4 to 5 months. My brain says, okay, that must be water damage. Maybe even 2-story water damage. Must have been on the first, must have been on the second story. I'm, I'm happy. My brain instantly starts, I'm like, what happened? So I get them off of Airbnb and the way that I do it now is my best way that I do it now is I personally do not send any of my information through the platform for fear of being kicked off. But what I do is I ask them, because you're talking for the most part, let's say it's an insurance claim. You're, you already have the first name, right? So I asked them for their last name and the city that their home is in. And then after that, you could do an easy white page search and there it goes. So I did that. I did that yesterday. Guy sent the inquiry. I said, hey, send me your last name and the city that your property's in. He did it. And I said, answer, and then put laugh out loud. and then he got it and then I called him and there it went. And this guy, for example, working directly with his insurance, it just happens. And those are really interesting because essentially they're, you have a blank check in the sense that they don't even, the homeowners don't even know what fair rental value, all that stuff. That's where we as operators, we educate them. And that's, I love this part. Not everyone wants to know all the nerdy stuff.

No, I love, like, the meat of it though. Like, how do you do it? How do you—

And this is exactly, so whenever in this specific situation, the guy sent the inquiry, my places are booked out there. I see it's a 5-month booking. I go, oh, that's, that's a long time. That's a nice booking as a business point of view, financially. That's fantastic. I want that payout because that's worth, that's great. And then on his end, it's Educating. Hey, so send me your declaration page. Send me your deck page.

Oh, you ask for that? Oh, that's really smart.

Yeah.

Okay.

We're, yeah, we're buddy now. Yeah. Hey, send me your deck page. This is what I do professionally. I will let you know what you are because I've had families, for example, reach out and, hey, I love the place. I wanna book it for X, Y, and Z long. And I, and we go back and forth. Oh, hey, we, I get 'em off platform. I call, hey, so what's going on? Tell me, where are you guys at? You guys are in a hotel? Oh, your dog can't go pee. Hello? Because they, and they're not in, this is the thing, it's like when you, so I'm really just, you're listening to all the pain points and you're saying, okay, is this property going to be a good fit? Or maybe another one's going to be a good fit. So I always ask for the declaration page because what insurance does, insurance told her, oh, you only have $12,000 a month to find property. And now mind you, that's fine. That budget's fantastic. You could find a lot of different properties, but the thing is she needed the fenced-in backyard. She needed this, she needed that. And then when I asked her, I said, hey, did you, did your home originally have a pool? She said yes. I said, that's like kind and quality. That's what it, that's the insurance lingo, kind and quality. The ears perk up. Oh, he knows about that. Yeah. If they have a pool, now the comps that they ran to get that $12,000, It doesn't work. Now you're— because they're comping, they don't comp pools. They, at least the, all the adjusters I've ever spoken with, they say, no, we try to stay away from that. I did my own comp. I did my own FRV comp sheet based on reaching out to different relocation companies and asking them, hey, how do you guys comp? Ask, asking other private adjusters, general adjusters. And you could cold call a lot of these adjusters, especially the private ones because their phone, that's their business is to help you. So you can really just go and they're so excited to hear someone in temporary housing that is like specializing in helping their industry. Oh my goodness. The reception is fantastic.

Amazing, man.

And they'll, and they were the ones, so I get all of my information from them. I, none of this is made up for me. It's all just question and answer. And So with this one, she said $12,000 was their monthly. I did my own comp and I actually told her, I was like, based on my numbers, you actually have $18,000 and your declaration page supports that. I don't see why they wouldn't approve that. Now you're not, you know, obviously you don't need that and I don't have a property. So let's go find you a property that we could put you in based on this new knowledge. Now we didn't even do $18,000. We actually, we found a property and everything landed for $13,000. but she loved the fact that she knew what she was able to get. And I like that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, because insurance, I think we just pay it every month and we never really file claims. So we're not experts. Homeowners are not. That's just not— the fact that you're advocating and helping them. So that, those are serious numbers.

And even, and that's, it's funny because California, that's the $10,000 and up in California is a very normal thing. and for me it was something that I personally had to get comfortable with because that was the FRV comp. And when I was told that by other adjusters, they're like, look, we're always trying to get a deal. Obviously they're not trying, but they said, and the thing is they said, hey, based on our comps, it was essentially me using their own formulas against them. I was saying, hey, You taught me how to comp. This house comps based on yours. Is this correct? Yeah, that's correct. The first time it worked, the second time it worked, it's already worked 9 times in a year. So now it's proof of concept and it's okay. Does that work in Nashville? Nashville is like a 3-bedroom, 2-bath within a 10-mile radius of downtown Nashville. You can $6,000. For a furnished rental is like their sweet number. You say $6,000, it's accepted and it's done. But it's like $6,000 to $9,000 is like the spread of what you can get as an MTR here in Nashville. 3-bedroom, 2.5-bath, fenced-in yard preferably, right? Pet-friendly, definitely a must. If there is, if there's cats, then there's ways that I try to work around that and But it's essentially, you're getting— I do the non-refundable pet fee, which adjusters have also helped me understand is the way to accept something and also prepare for things to go wrong. A lot of people say, oh, I'll just charge $500 refundable pet fee. If your dog pees on my carpet, I can clean it up and go. If you ask for a $1,000 non-refundable pet fee, you're sleeping better at night. If there was going to—

yep.

And at the end of the day, instead of returning that capital, you can keep it because you can— now your cleaning bill may be a little bit more. You have a little bit more to play with. And as a co-host here in Nashville, that is one of the, one of the main things that I love talking to my clients about and explaining to them. If someone called and said, hey, I have an elephant, we're gonna— there's one because I had one actually, this lady was coming with, she had 8 turtles. And it was one of those things where I was like, ah, and I, I was like, okay. And what it ended up coming to, and I didn't, this inquiry was, I passed it on, but I helped my, another property manager here in Nashville. I helped him close it because he was like, oh, William, she has 8 turtles. I don't even know what to do with it. I go, well, find a place that boards turtles. Insurance is going to pay for that and reasonably put whatever fee you want to attach to. Maybe the, the whatever service fee to monitor the turtles. And that's what he did. And he was like, oh, he was like, yeah, it's a $200 management fee a month for watching these turtles, which insurance pays for. At the end of the day, like I said, it's just solutions.

It totally is. I had a duck inquiry once and some chickens. I'm like, shit, we're in Portland. Oh my God. So many things to unpack. Okay. So I do, I think the term FRV, I haven't heard that for comps. What does that stand for? Sorry, I just Yeah.

Fair rental value. Yeah. So fair rental value. And that's a big thing. You'll see it come through. Hey, even with relocation specialists, they'll say, hey, the guest, they, they call the guest the policyholder or insured. Insured is the word you will hear majority of the time. Hey, the insured, they're looking for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so FRV, I personally like to do it whenever I get any pushback. From an adjuster, and the reason I like to use it is because of the word fair. We're not abusing it. We're not price gouging. We're doing what is fair. And I always ask the adjuster, hey, if you don't mind showing me your FRV, maybe our numbers are off. What am I missing? It could either be an education for me or the deal closes because they're just saying no. For other reasons that aren't fair.

Okay. And that's just, that's data-driven, right? I love that. Okay. You know, when I coach students on negotiating with insurance, they're very nervous about like that. And I explain it's seasonal, right? But what are your tips on, look, and then we are locking this in, right? It is seasonal. Any tips on negotiating with insurance, right? How to, because we're serving the family and we wanna make sure it's available.

So utilities. You should have a list of things that you're willing to leverage. So one of my biggest things, and this is, let's focus on an example that has no pets.

Mm-hmm.

The first thing that I am leveraging is, will be the utilities. Do I pay them or does the family pay them?

Right.

Insurance loves it when the family pays utilities.

Really? Yeah.

If the family's not in their home, They're not paying utilities there.

Right.

So why should the insurance pay the utilities at their new location? They're providing housing.

Hmm.

And so they look at utilities as a, uh, they don't like it. So whenever I offer a price, I have it in my mind. I can take away because essentially there's the adjuster's looking at one number, monthly rent. And they're saying, oh, that number's too big. That's the only no, right? Yeah. They're not saying, they're not saying anything yet though. Let's say the family loves the house, you love it, you got everything worked out, you submit it, it gets denied. Why did they get denied? Did they get, get denied for the damage deposit? Like what's going on? Unless your damage deposit is skyrocket, which, you know, but for the most part it's the monthly rent. That is the expense. And so let's say I start the negotiation off at a comfortable number that I'm including utilities in and I'm, and I'm including a biweekly cleaner in.

Okay.

Because it's easier. It's easier for the families, in my opinion, to walk in and say, oh, the cleaner's gonna be here in 2 weeks. And I say yes. And so I put that in there. And that right there could easily be, let's say utilities are $500. Mm-hmm. And let's say the cleaner is an additional $300.

Mm-hmm.

So that's $800. That's rounded up in $1,000 that we can leverage now. Mm-hmm. So let's say your place normally rents $5,000 a month and you're comfortable with that number. Insurance contacts you and they say, okay, we want you to submit. Then you submit it for $6,000 and they go, hey, it was listed for $5,000. Then you say, okay, well, $5,000 is not including utilities and it's not including the biweekly cleaning. The $6,000 incorporates all that in there. And then they go, okay, let's say the adjuster says no. And you go, okay, the family will pay for utilities. Now we're at $5,500 because we're dropping it $500. We're saying the family's going to take care of utilities. That gets accepted. There you go. Now you have what you want and then that extra capital. You can divert to cleaning and anything else that may come up. Oh, you guys don't have a toaster. I'll get you a toaster. You're padding it to be able to give back the welcome basket, the different things. So that's where I like to do my negotiation. If I submit it for $7,000, it gets accepted. We're all happy. Let's say the family's not there for 3 weeks and utilities are low. Like, it doesn't matter. You're making it so comfortable and easy for everyone.

So when you're advertising, I feel like with medical avatars, they expect the utilities to be included. So are you advertising it just not included in it, or how do you— that nuance of who you're going after?

I have in my listing subject to seasonality, subject— like, I, I, it's for the most part, when anyone sends me an inquiry, whatever I have written there, even when it comes to pricing. Let's say they get an inquiry from Zillow. Zillow doesn't really take into account seasonality like Airbnb. So you'll get somebody that, for example, they'll say, hey, your price on Airbnb is different than your price on Zillow. And go, what is the price on Airbnb? The price on Airbnb comes up to $18,000 a month. And you're like, okay, what is it on Zillow? It's $15,000. And go, okay, now let's talk about it. They should be different. They should be different. Prices because Airbnb has their fees and so on and so forth. At the end of the day, what is my bottom line? And then from there, so very rarely do I get those questions, but essentially, yeah, as far as pricing goes and utilities in my listings, it's a— I, I only— I don't put utilities included on any of my listings. It's one of those things that people assume is in there. But because I'm, I leverage it and some people who come in and they want to stay longer, I say, hey, it's going to be easier if you guys take care of utilities. So instead of this price, we're going to make it this price and then whatever is extra, I'll take care. So it's always a negotiation with everything. So I don't put utilities included in my listing because for the most part, you're not, a lot of people just assume that it's in there, but when you have the conversation, then it's something that you can work with.

No, I like that. It's just, it's a negotiating tool. That's really clever. Okay. So that's really helpful. And the other thing that we talked about is co-hosting, and I think there's a real need. People don't understand this model, especially insurance. They're just so mystified. And we're— it's just good on so many levels. So how do you manage your co-hosting business? How do you pitch it? What are your questions people have? Because I'm getting perfect.

So the biggest thing for me, and I'm going to say this because this is something that I personally, when I started, I wish people spoke about way more. How do you get a co-host property? How do you even You throw meetups. I don't care if you are an introvert, if you are an introvert, if you are an extrovert, whoever you think you are or know you are or whatever, you get on Canva and you type in investor meetup, whatever, and you get a template and you reword it. You send it to a couple of friends, they tell you it's ugly, you get it back, or you hire somebody off of Fiverr or you, you go on Facebook and you say, hey, who can make this? And you get all these great hands up and you get that, that flyer set up. Then you go on Eventbrite. I personally just use Eventbrite. I, I, I could use Meetup and all those, but I use Eventbrite. It's easy. And you post it, it costs $50 and you launch it. You, you spend an extra $15. I always do it 2 weeks in advance, 2 window, because the majority of people are gonna sign up 3 days before.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

And day of, you get a lot of day of, I saw this today. So I spend mainly, I start marketing the first week and then the last 3 days I do, I do another $30 marketing. I just boost it everywhere. And that's just through Eventbrite. I'm also posting on all the Facebook groups of the local city. And I, and for co-hosting deals, I do real estate meetups because that's my Audience. When I also, we could get into this. I also do adjuster meetups for insurance adjusters.

Why?

I walk in the room, I walk in a room full of adjusters and they're like, who's Whit? I'm like, I'm the Tim Howes guy. And they're like, are you an adjuster? What are you doing throwing an adjuster meetup? And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm getting you guys your first rank. But I go in and explain what I do and it just becomes that. I like to throw meetups where I'm bringing all my clients in a room. And that's it. That should be the reason for meetups. I personally, I go to real estate meetups, to sub2 meetups, because that's my community of people who also— I get so many referrals from them. Oh, Will's the MTR guy out of Nashville. Go to him. So that's great. But for business, if I'm looking, okay, why am I throwing this meetup? What is my goal? I want to get at least 1 or 2 co-host deals. So let me really, let me reach out on Airbnb to different hosts that I know. Spread that. Let me spread the word to different realtors. And at my meetups, I like to do a minimum of 5-minute explanation, get in front of everyone and do a 5-minute explanation of who I am, what I do, and then point different people out in the room that I know can add value. Hey, you have been talking to that same person all day, and I know you need to talk to them. And I do a little bit of matchmaking in it because people remember experiences and then they value the person that allowed them to make that experience. So they're always going to be grateful for, oh, Will had this great meetup and I met my partner. That we've done so many deals with and so on and so forth.

I absolutely love that, that it's about connecting and that's the biggest value add, right? It just amazing. I love the adjusters. Is it really just for adjusters that you're like just throwing? I heard you say that. Yeah.

And I got that idea. I actually, the next one that I'm throwing, and now this is real life today. And I probably, I need to do more content with these cuz yeah, but the next one, for example, We just closed yesterday, so we're very excited. We closed on a property yesterday and we bought it traditionally. Yeah, we did the 20% down and all that, which is probably— it will be our last. We did it because it was a great deal in Birch Bay, Washington.

Very cool.

Yeah. So it's a 3-bedroom, 2-bath. We're going to be doing some renovations. That's where we're going to be in the next June and July. And what do you think is the first thing I'm going to do when I get there? I'm going to throw meetups. I'm going to throw 3 meetups a month and I'm going to invite cleaners. I'm going to invite handymen. I'm going to invite contractors. I'm going to invite real estate. I'm going to invite developers, investors, put everyone in the room because I'm creating my grocery store so I can go shopping and I can ask, hey, who And then literally within 2 meetups, I have my entire vendor list. I have people that are wanting me to co-host. I have people that want this and that. And hey, let me do an analysis for you. You're buying how many here? Hey, we're only going to be here 3 months out of the year. The other 9 months we're going to be— I'll be managing it from a distance. So I really like the way you operate. Oh wow. Your Airbnb is killing it out here. So that's fantastic. You're a great person to connect with. Here's a bunch of value that I can get. I need your property for later on insurance contracts at the same time. Hey, insurance people, I now, my territory is expanded. I'm now Washington, let's go. And it's just that.

Community building. You're just the, you're just the hub of it, right? So you're in everyone's meeting other people, 'cause we all, let's face it, we all need cleaners. We all need to know people. It's just that. Okay. That is really, and what do you call it? Is it branded or do you?

No, I don't. I just, I do, I try to make it like funny sometimes. It depends. Like I like to just, I like to, I, what I do is this, um, cause my wife and I, we do a lot of back and forth. Hey, does this work? Does this? And she's the best person I could throw these ideas when I go, hey baby, it's a Friday night. Do you feel like talking about real estate? She's, oh, absolutely not. I go, okay, what about Thursday? She's looking at maybe Thursday because, and she's giving me an honest opinion of someone. She's my client. And so I'll spitball things and I go, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? Oh no, I don't want, I don't want to go to an event that has, you know, beer on the advertisement. I go, okay. She goes, that's gonna attract more maybe like someone who just wants to go and hang out. And I go, okay. She goes, put suits on there and maybe something with a house, like a beautiful house. So that's cute. And I go, okay, so that's gonna attract you. And then I send it to some buddies of mine and I go, hey, what do you guys think about this? And they go, oh, you gotta put something. And so I just have the people who. Are, they're telling me what they want. And that comes from the community as well. But then, yeah, next we have the flyer put together and I do personally, I do a lot of outreach even on LinkedIn. I look for local businesses in the area and then I go on LinkedIn and I cold call them and reach out, email, direct message. Hey, introduce myself, what I can do. And because of what we do is so interesting. People are easily interested. They're like, wait, what? It's a fascinating thing, which is why I personally feel because we're on the ground floor right now with this, this growing industry and just the years from now, I think the demand is going to be, it's going to be so much that if we're not helping each other and collaborating, it's going to be a disaster. Going to have to be so much teamwork from everyone. Just understand, like the MTR Summit was last year to this year, it doubled in size and it's just going to, it's only going to get bigger, which it's, by all means.

No, I think it's also just, we're serving the community where if I get a call, I'm like, hey, I'll put the word out to people. And the other thing is that builds my authority or whatever you want to call it. I'm the expert. Cause I'm always getting these leads. And I think something to highlight that I've stumbled on, clearly you have too, is leave your listings up as like bait, right?

Yeah, no, that's, that's been a great— it's a, at the end of the day, it's lead generation.

Exactly.

Yeah. And if you're co-hosting several properties, it's even better. Let's say I'm co-hosting 10 properties. I would, I would leave 5 of them available and they're all the same. So you could do a lot of moving around and then I go, okay, this one was available. I know it's more attractive for this audience. Go ahead and open it up. And you're, It's very interesting too, because there's very little MTR data for us to go into and search. And so what I personally like is talking to other operators like yourself and saying, what have you seen? That's your greatest insight. The territories, I, I know different markets to invest in because of operators in that market saying, oh my gosh, I'm inundated with inquiries. And I go, wow, that's Who else will know that? Who else is like, where is that data? It doesn't exist. You could only find it at the MTR Summit or different podcasts or— that is the— that is so special.

It's a people business, right? Really, truly. This is really— yeah. Okay. I don't—

I—

there's so many fun things to talk about, but I really wanna talk about, so defining co-hosting versus property management, they're very different and how you position that and the pros and cons to like a, maybe a landlord that's just like long-term, I want a year lease, set it and forget it kind of thing. Curious how you propose that. Yeah. Because it's, people don't know the term. It's a short-term rental term coming over to midterm. Clearly it's, yeah.

So yeah, I break it down. Property managers, they collect the money and co-hosts, they invoice. So the money goes to, yeah, the money goes to the landlord. And there's times where, and it's, and this may be like a gray area in just complete transparency. I have a friend of mine who I manage his property here in Nashville and he's, I love you, you're my brother, you're collecting the money. So in, in, in that situation, am I gonna say, no, I cannot do it? No. I, he says, hey, I want, I just send me the money, send me, I send him a W-9 and that's our relationship.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, so I, when I get new co-hosting deals, I'm very transparent. Of, hey, what are your expectations? What are mine? These are the legal— this is how we have to handle this and that. And are there going to be opportunities where people will say, hey, I want you to take care of it. What do I need to sign to make sure everything is legal? You could get a real estate lawyer involved if you want to, just to work contracts, if that's what you want to do. But every situation is completely different. In that situation, like even right now, we have an insurance contract in there. And my company, because I'm a vendor with the insurance company, then it comes to me and then I pay him out based on our agreement and so on and so forth. But it's whatever's easier. Um, but the biggest thing with co-hosting is mainly the funds, handling of the funds. And, um, you are, as a co-host, you definitely want to make sure your name is on the, um, landlord insurance policy.

Of a good tip. Okay. Yeah.

That was, and I got that actually from going to the STR Summit here in Nashville or STR Conference out here with Bill Faith and Mike Shobert. And I went up to the, um, oh, what's the name? Wavo. I went up to the Wavo booth. Okay. And the CEO of Wavo was there and Wavo is the one that does that, you can get a, essentially a temporary policy for, to cover the, a shorter stay. So instead of getting a regular landlord policy, you say, have a family of 5 coming in for the next 5 months, you get a Wavo plan for that 5-month stay. And they tell the family to pay monthly for X amount of coverage.

Okay.

So I was, I, I went into directly to him, which is a big value going to these summits. Definitely go and talk to the people at the booths. Meeting people was fantastic. Fantastic. I personally love it. That's how we met. But there's so much great information talking to those booths and so on and so forth. Two, the, he was the one that told me, he said, as a co-host, he goes, because they have property management insurance, he goes, but as a co-host, he goes, you are liable. You're putting your name down. You're managing this property. You are liable for whatever happens. So if your name is not on the policy and you're the one Managing this and doing that somewhere in there, you have to, you don't want to get hit with anything, but if your name is attached to that policy, then now you're, you have that blanket coverage and you're operating as such. Okay.

So it's like an interested party or just, I forget, is there a term for it for adding that?

I don't know the, I don't know the term.

Okay.

But one of my, I use, um, Goosehead Insurance as my like broker. And I love calling them and doing exactly that. Hey, what is this called? And picking, you know, picking a lot of information from them and understanding like how some states do things differently. And even that, I like, that was another thing when people say, oh, I wanna be a co-host in outta state, you go call and get someone that can explain to you how they operate and what they allow and just to be able to navigate easier.

That's really, yeah, you have to be smart, right? That's really important. So I'm curious, my understanding of co-hosting and the way I'm setting it up is I will draft the lease of like, I have software, but I, the owner and the guest will be on the lease. I, as the co-host, I'm not on the lease. I'm curious if that's how you do it or if you have a different strategy.

Yeah, absolutely. I do the exact same way. All of my lease, I use KeyCheck, and so I make sure that The landlord or the homeowner has already seen the lease, comfortable with it. Mainly, obviously the first couple of times you do it, they're, they're seeing it over and over. Oh, it's the same lease. So they know exactly what it is. And the owner, you can put in the other section, different things that you want to change. Cap, if you want to put a monthly cap on utilities and so on and so forth. But yeah, I go on my software, I draft everything. I send the drafts first to both parties for them to look over. And when they both give me an okay that they're comfortable with it, then it comes back to me with thumbs up. And then that's when I issue it out. I just put their emails there in KeyCheck. It sends it like a DocuSign, and then I get the confirmations.

And KeyCheck, because I ha— we're in a very unfriendly state for landlords. I'm so neurotic about So my bone with those national, I mean, I, I have ones that are very specific, especially for Oregon. Are they pretty, are they tailored to even like the county you're in or is it more like broad strokes with KeyCheck? Do you know with KeyCheck? I'm just curious.

So because I'm a fanatic and I call every software that I personally use, the departments know me and I have, because my thing is this, my thing is this, I don't want to wait until the last minute and be like, oh, what's 1-800-KeyCheck? I need. My lease isn't working. So I have direct emails with every single person. So anyway, but I said that to say, from what KeyCheck told me directly was just that they say that they have a team that they are constantly being updated with the latest news, the latest policy, what's the best, the best of this, that, and third need to be led. Yeah. Um, California by far is the longest lease and it keeps on growing and growing. Every year I'm always shocked. I'm like, 16 pages. Read them, right? Yeah. And the, but yeah, so I think KeyCheck is, it was the first one that I used and I looked at like RentReady. I looked at, looked at several others, even that, like in Jesse Vazquez and his, in his mentorship, he has different, like a sample lease agreement that he says, hey, you just need to tailor it per state. But KeyCheck has been great for me and yeah, I like the system a lot, so I'm gonna stick with it.

That's really good to know cuz I, I have students all over and I have software that's only kind of for the West Coast. Is that from Furnish Finder, KeyCheck? Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, perfect. Okay. Yeah, no, I'm real— my dad's an attorney, my best friend's an attorney.

Sure.

And I think if you just use some generic contract, it's really not specific. So you should have some kind of software. Don't just. Copy and, or someone was like ChatGPT. I'm like, please don't do that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. With everything, even for my co-host agreement, it was the co-host agreement. I love getting feedback from other operators, seeing their agreements. Um, one of the cool things that I learned that I like to do now is when I'm going in a state that I do not have an agreement put together. I call different property management companies and I say, hey, I'm an investor. Can you send me your agreement? Within, within 10, 15 minutes, several phone calls, you have 4 different professional looked over agreements and it is just a slam dunk. And then you take that and you can tailor it. You can do whatever you want with it. And it's fantastic. I love that little loophole.

That's a great tip because then you're compliant. And what I think what I love about co-hosting is I am helping the landlord, but I'm not like, I'm not in that, I'm not property manager because that needs to be licensed often. And I feel like it's a much more formal relationship, I guess, is how I see it. I don't know what your take is, but yeah, no, it's for property manager.

Like even there's a lot of information that I would gather from property managers as far as, hey, like, how long have you been property manager out here? Okay. And essentially like you're interviewing them based on, and they're gonna give you, oh, we can't do this, we can't do that. And it's a whole brand new education. I try to take one or two of 'em out to lunch to get just that, a deeper dive into what are, what are the requirements? Do you have to be a realtor for how many years? Like where do you need to hang your license? Like how do you navigate that water? Closing is such a beautiful gray area. Which hope it never—

kind of gray, right?

The beautiful gray area that eventually growing and even like it's on my to-do list is down the line. I would love to have the operation co-hosting. Great. But also buying into or buying completely a failing property management company that already has their licenses and all and just adopt that and move in a different way, or you can have those options because there are— I haven't ran across it yet, yet, nor do I see an instant need to do that, but it is something that I'm personally interested in and learning a little bit more and more about. In the meantime, co-hosting is fantastic.

Yeah, the whole property thing, lead generation, I think that's the other kind of like the tired landlords. You want to sell. Well, yeah, we're at time. I have another question, but if— I will totally respect your time if you have to go. We can wrap this up because I don't want to take more time. So let me know, be honest.

No, we're good.

Yeah, so many things. But I did— you mentioned a term that I don't know if you coined this, but reverse arbitrage. I'd love to— that's like the last kind of meaty topic I'd love to hear your insight on.

Yeah, reverse arbitrage. Essentially, you get the contract and you find the door. And mainly it's when I don't have any properties that I personally own or that I'm co-hosting, or let's say all my places are booked.

Mm-hmm.

Then that's where I would get the contract. Let's, for, let's say it's a 3-month contract, family of 5 with a dog, I will go and find a property that's a good fit. I'll reach out to the landlord and tell them exactly what I'm doing. Hey, my company Nova Havens, we work along with this insurance relocation company or this insurance company, and we are looking to house a displaced family. They're displaced because of this reason. I see here that your property is available for this amount of time. My company will be paying you directly. So everything would be coming from us. The way it breaks down in the backend is you're charging a management fee per month and you're submitting their property for— so you're giving them what they want. Let's say their property's listed for $3,500 as a furnished rental. You're giving them everything that you, that they want, and you're sending it to the insurance relocation company with your fee on top of that, that gets accepted.

Okay.

And then you're essentially subleasing the property. And if the family needs to do a background check, like you have some landlords that say, I do background checks and credit checks and everything else check. Okay. So what I do is I personally will do that myself, my company will, and then I'll provide those documents to them.

Okay.

And I've never had any pushback. There's the easy, After you do it your first time, it's the biggest education because it is an undertaking the first time you do it. But after now, like you build a clientele of people you've already worked with in the past and essentially they're extensions of your co-hosting properties.

Okay. So the lease is, you have a lease between you, your company and the landlord, and then you're subleasing essentially to the— client or the guest. Okay.

Exactly.

Interesting. Yeah. I, I like that because traditional arbitrage, you're really just acquiring a property and hoping you can fill it, which I think to me that's a, a big investment, right? In furniture and all that stuff. So I, and you're helping.

Yeah. And it's temporary. Even if let's say someone is renting their place out, it's unfurnished for $2,000 a month.

Mm-hmm.

I look at that and I go, okay, that's an opportunity for us. Right there, let's say I have a contract that's a 6-month contract and we get everything negotiated where the homeowner, I'm leasing it from them and I tell them for the duration, it's a 5-month. I'm coming with the, with the business plan and everything. So it's really no investment besides, hey, you're just making the connection and you're essentially managing the manager or the landlord. Just, you do for what we do with vetting to make sure that landlord is a quality landlord. And that's essentially the value to the relocation company because they're saying, oh, we've done dozens of deals with Nova Havens. Will is great. He has, he knows what we, what we like. His standard matches ours. If I put a property forward, then they're under the assumption that he's already vetted this landlord. He essentially is managing them and it works Fantastic. It's a very easy system, but it takes those— the first 3 are— the first one is so— you learn so much because you're going to do things incorrectly. But by the second one, oh, it gets smoother and smoother. By the third one, it's the best way because the families are like, who are you? And is it possible to get cut out? It is. And I say cut out, meaning like the fam— let's say I, I reach out to you and you say, who are you working with? Why don't you put me in touch with them? I don't— that has only happened to me one time. And the reason it happened to me one time was because it was my first time doing it and I was very clunky. I didn't have things dialed in. The best thing is just being transparent to what's going on.

Mm-hmm.

And you're essentially, you're not telling them, hey, I'm renting your place out and I'm making this much more on the back end. No, you're, you know, we're not charging huge fees for that process. We're not price gouging at all. We're providing a service and we're saying, hey, the value is I have a lot more of these and I can use your home in the future. Really selling that relationship pitch is, has been how it just makes it so much easier for the landlord to understand like, oh, this is a good company and this is a good person to work with. And the best thing is to do it with homeowners directly. I personally don't like doing it with property management companies or, what was another one? It was mainly property management companies because they do have, who are you? I got to vet your company. I got to do a background check on your company. And you're like, I have a family that's trying to move in. We're trying to pay you. A lot of money. Yeah. Especially when my company didn't hit that, that 2-year mark.

Yeah.

I was like, I don't have that information to, so I like going direct to the homeowner. Uh, who is especially like the homeowner that's self-managing or other co-hosts in the area. It's just so much easier.

That makes a lot of sense. And I also think the quality of the guest is really, they're responsible, the insurance is covering it. 'Cause I think that's people's— one question is the furnishing. Is do, are you doing that with the arbitrage thing or is that who's paying for the furnishing if it's unfurnished?

When it's unfurnished, I personally like the relocation company to do it.

Okay.

So, because, yeah, because if, if there's anything that needs to be sent back, if there's any, anything that breaks, they are completely responsible and in control of it.

Mm-hmm.

And it's simply me saying, hey, you guys gotta get in there and fix the bed. It broke. The, the less is more, the, the least that I am involved as far as like furnishing and all that, cuz it's not my wheelhouse and they do it better. Yeah. So let them do it better. And I'm fine with that. I can close that deal right now. It's roughly, if I get 10 leads, it's anywhere from like a 30% at best closing. So like out of 10 leads, 3 of those will close and it takes roughly about 7 days, like 7 to 8 days. Essentially, if you're, it's a Monday to Friday thing and Friday by 5:00 PM CST. Understand that you're, if you didn't close that deal, there are some companies that do work Saturday in different departments and whatnot. But one of the biggest things, if you are working with the relocation world, is understanding their hours, understanding how many of them are there, understanding what departments are going on, understanding what, you know, who's the manager, who's not. They get fired too. You know, you, oh, I'm so good. I'm good friends with Tammy. Temp doesn't work here. It's like, you know, understanding just the dynamics personally is something that I love because yeah, if I'm putting a family in a house on a Friday, I have to know, oh, Friday it's going to suck because everyone's closed Saturday, Sunday. Like that's gonna, hey, can we push furnishing to Thursday?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, okay. Will, but we need to, no, we need to do, and just from past experience. So understanding those little nuances is, and this is such an in the weeds convo, which I love because this is, this is what I was talking about this morning.

Morning.

Like, these are the things, like, details.

Like, I've had to hunt, I've had to hunt for a bed frame on Facebook Marketplace because Amazon did not deliver it. I'm like, I'm not having a bed in this room. It's just— and you have to think.

And then, yeah, that's—

I'm very detail-oriented. I like big picture. But yeah, I appreciate you hearing me. Really, one more quick really thing. People are so terrified of pets, and I think it's so important. And I just— any tips on— I love pets. I think you miss half your audience without them when people are like, oh, pets are gonna do whatever.

Yeah, the first thing with pets is what does the insurance allow? That's my first. So I said, okay, what is, what does insurance allow? Let's start there. Insurance allows some breeds, they don't allow some. If it's over 60 pounds, sometimes depends. So I get that information first and then having the conversation with the homeowner. Okay. If there's, I had one this morning that called and, hey, you want, he co-hosts our property. I said, okay, how do you feel about cats? They go, We're both deathly allergic, so no cats. And so every home I'd love for every home, I market all my homes. I accept everything, all pets, elephants, because yeah, elephants, giraffes. And I say that because every family with pets is a snowflake. It's very unique.

Mm-hmm.

So I like the only time I've accepted cats. For example, I won't even say only time. Uh, yeah. Okay. So this happened, it was interesting. The family, they send an inquiry and they said 2 dogs and a cat. And I, when I reached out to the family, I said, how old is your cat and what's going on? And they were, they just started laughing. They said, our cat is probably going to pass away in the next couple of months. It's very obese and it does. Now, will I say no to that cat? One, let him live his good life.

Yeah.

But at the same time, That situation, I'm not thinking this cat's a wild animal running through my house, scratching up things. The second one, oh, this cat. Hey, what's your cat's name? Let me get to know this cat. Me and this cat need to date. What's going on? But what I like is when it fits that category, that it is something that, hey, our insurance will cover this. We have coverage. We're good. Then I do ask more questions. I prefer the cat to be spayed or neutered. And I say prefer, that means it must just because that's the big protection. And I had recently someone brought up something interesting. They're just like asking someone, hey, is your cat declawed? It, you fall into a gray area because some people they'll say, oh, that's mutilation. And you get in that conversation. So I, I never knew that. I never had cats growing up. So I, it was something very new to me. And cuz at first I used to ask, hey, like, hey, is your cat declawed? Is this and this? But now I just, I bring up the subject and I say, "Um, you know, has your cat created any damage in your own home or others in the past year or two? And please be honest because I'm just here to say yes to you and work together." And you can tell when, you know, how some people are and yeah, it's, if, and I try to get as much information upfront about the cat in particular or the dog in particular. And if it isn't a good fit, then I do my best to find them something that will fit. Or I increase the damage deposit or I get the Waifu policy that, hey, you're gonna, because of this situation, you'll be paying $100 a month and you have a $20,000 policy. So even if your cat did go around the house and spray things up and create so much damage, then I'm still covered. I do non-refundable pet fee when it comes to cats for that reason. And yeah, every situation is different, but the biggest thing I, I would say is just the power of negotiation. Hearing, hearing the pain points and hearing, is this person someone that's working with me when I ask for the cat's papers and their records? How fast did this person get it to me? And the ones who get it to me fast and say, here's the doctor's name, here's my vet's name, here's everything. I go, I already like this person. They know how to, they know how to manage this, this thing that I'm afraid of.

Responsible. Ask a clarification. When I require the tenants to get renters insurance, are you actually paying for that as the co-host? Are you requiring them to pay for that? I'm just curious. Who's—

I require them to pay for it, but there are times where I will if it's easier, and I bake that into my price.

Okay. Got it.

Because with insurance, you're dealing with families that have gone through— it's probably one, if not It's in the top 3 of the most traumatic things that's happened to them. And so taking that into account, sometimes you can get lost in the sauce when you're asking them to do all these hoops and they're like, and they guess they'll sometimes they'll say, man, this is too much. I'm gonna pick a different property that is not asking me to do all this. They have that option. Your property is not the only option. Every family gets 3 options to start with. Let's start there. So in this situation, for example, I'm doing one where I'm covering— I'm, I've already baked it in my price and I'm paying the renter's insurance, but I'm just having them fill out their information and they're thankful. And this is, like I said, it's already, it's everything's baked in them. I'm not coming out of pocket. And I strategically did that with the intention of saying, hey, this family— could the family said no to the property, came back a week later and said yes, took 4 days to sign the lease. So it's okay. This is a family that. This is, there's something else going on.

Mm-hmm.

That instead of asking a billion questions, let me provide a billion solutions.

Yes. No, I love, and that's just very service-oriented. It's what do they need? What's gonna make this seamless versus here's all this like list of stuff. And that's just having your home just damaged. That's extreme. That's a lot with kids and pets and living in a hotel. So yeah, service. I love it. Okay. I think we could talk for hours easily.

What are we, it's only been 5 minutes. What are you talking about? I honestly, it's so funny because when you said hours, I was like, goodness gracious, we could talk another, 'cause I would, I was like, I want, I wanted to ask you about creative financing and all that because, oh my, so that's a conversation for another day. And I, yeah, I mean, you're right there in Oregon even. So here I am, Washington. I even see that connection and I love the proximity to really just, you know, working together in the future. With the, this to me is what I really love about this space and what I love about being a part of even, you know, Jesse's mentorship. He promotes that community aspect so much. So, but yeah, any, as far as me and my business, just for the record, if anyone's confused, we own and manage as real estate investors, my wife and I, we also, we co-host here in Nashville, Washington, and California. And I also do one-on-one coaching and that is, you could go on my, uh, Instagram or on the website and book a call. And I also do MTR analysis and all that stuff. So that's, that's me in a nutshell.

I love that. Yeah, no, I think I, I feel like this community's very collaborative and there's the abundance mentality. I think that's really important. There's plenty. And the more we help people, the more we get back. Yeah. I usually ask a couple questions. Are you already, people, how to find you? I'll put in the show notes, maybe just let's just leave a, a resource resource you'd recommend or something that if someone's looking to get into this business or what was really helpful for you? You've, you've dropped so much value. I don't even know what else you can add.

It's the biggest thing is join local Facebook groups and participate. Don't just go in there to extract value. Go in there to give as much as you can because in that process, like sharing your wins and your losses. People resonate with that and people appreciate that and you just open more relationship doors. The biggest thing is the relationship. The biggest thing is, hey, this is what I'm doing. If you're interested, let me know. Let's do it together. Creating smaller groups has been really beneficial. I'm, I would say if you're starting off, definitely join a mentorship. I personally love Jesse Vasquez mentorship. I also recommend Ruben Cañas mentor, his He's fantastic. He's a great friend and I adore him. Another good friend of mine, Mike Stone, has a very more boutique mentorship that I also recommend. I started with Jesse's, I adore that, but there's, when you get into that bubble, you do definitely see that there are people out there that will give you that one-on-one attention that it just speeds things up. It really does. And then after that, understand if you're waiting for all the answers to start, then You're already behind. That's the worst thing you can do. I am that way. I come from a 9-to-5 mentality and I thought I was going to die doing it. I loved my pension and my 401k. And being around my wife, who is just an entrepreneur's entrepreneur, she didn't force me out of my 9-to-5, but she just, she led by example that, hey, you can't wait for all the answers. You join a mentorship, you start asking questions, you just start figuring it out as you go. And you enjoy being creative, enjoy looking at a problem and reaching out to other people, DMs. I answer my, all my DMs on Instagram, on LinkedIn. And if you ask me anything, I am very transparent. And I think that's also a very big value. Reach out, do not be quiet. Reach out to people that you like their answers on the Facebook group chats. And you're like, hey, that was a great point. Hey, the person said exactly what I would say, and I'm, I've been doing this for a while. I'm pretty experienced. Why don't we connect with this person? You, it's just so beneficial. There's so many free resources. You can save so much time by just being involved in the community and being honest and being open and being a go-giver. I love this space.

Mm-hmm. 100%. Yeah. No, I've, I coach students, I've done courses, and I think it's that jumpstart and finding the person that you resonate with because You can do it yourself, but if you, someone gives you that blueprint, you're like, just make the investment, it'll pay off. And just, there's so much content out there, but I think there's something about making that investment, like committing to it. Like you're just gonna get to that. Yeah, I love what you said. And then be active, right? Because people are just lurking and if you're active, you become a known person, which is amazing, right? And a resource.

Yeah, no, you're, that's. That was, you put it perfectly. Yeah. Give and get.

Totally. When you're in— I'm definitely gonna come to your meetup, so please invite me.

I love it.

I love it.

I love it. And for anyone else who's in Washington or coming, even it, it's funny cuz my wife is Canadian, so even having, like, we were telling so many, cuz Canada, Vancouver specifically, they are, they're going about banning Airbnbs altogether. And that's pretty much the strategy behind our investment is, hey, we're going into a market where all these people in Vancouver, we're right there on the border. So we're attacking, we're pulling from that Canadian crowd. So I'm inviting a lot of Canadians to the meetup and just showing them and saying, that's a whole huge metro market that no one is even tapping into. And the closest city is Birch Bay and their properties are right there on the water. And Airbnbs kill it during the summer and in the winter. Do you not know, do you not think people are being displaced? Of course. Or so.

Yeah. That whole hybrid, that's what I was calling midterm when I first, I didn't know midterm, like found this hybrid strategy and I, yeah, no, that's, but you, you found that because networking and there's opportunity and you figure it out. I love, yeah, I love you. Thank you so much for taking the time and we went way over.

Dude, that's what happens when you put two nerds in the room. Look, Richard.

Hey. Oh my God.

Thank you so much for the invitation. It was a pleasure meeting you during the summit and starting our friendship and then even going and having some Mexican food. I love beginning stories and even where it goes. So, yeah. I'll see you at the meetup. Definitely. And yeah, thank you so much.

Thank you.