Real Estate Investment Strategies: How to use BRRRR to Build & Self-Manage Your Rental Portfolio

But some of the myths of being a housing provider are that you have to have a lot of money. So you have to have a lot of money to get started. The, you know, that crappy little condo that I bought in Austin, I put down $3,000 and that loan product that we use, it still exists. I mean, that wasn't a fluke. So you can get into your own home with, you know, if you're a veteran, or I know there's some like teacher credits and all that, you can get into a house for under $10,000 of your, your own money. And then once you get more into like the actual, you know, purchasing as a rental product, we use the BRRRR method.

Welcome to the Cedar and Porch Real Estate Investment Podcast. I'm the host, Shona Lepis. Follow along as we unpack and demystify real estate investment strategies through expert interviews and personal experience. From how to find off-market deals to creative financing to long-term and midterm rentals, our goal is to educate and inspire others to gain financial freedom and generational wealth through real estate investing. Right. Today I'm super excited to have Jesse Lang on. We actually met in a course on how to promote a course. She has a Rentals Made Easy course, and I have a Midterm Rental Playbook course. So Jessie started investing in real estate by house hacking over 10 years ago and has since grown a substantial rental portfolio that she manages with the help of a small remote team. She's laser-focused on the BRRRR method, which allows her to put her money to work over and over again to create generational wealth. She partners with private money lenders to buy real estate with none of her own money while providing them double-digit returns on their investment. When she isn't managing rentals or coaching, she travels with her wife Laura, spoils her 5— yes, 5— pets, and gets her hands dirty in DIY house projects and gardening. So today we're going to dive into the topic of how to successfully self-manage your own rental portfolio, which happens to be a topic that I love. So there's countless courses out there that teach you how to find and buy real estate rental investments, but once you own them, there's not a lot out there on how to self-manage them, what to do. So I'm successfully. So I'm excited to dive into the topic. So Jessie, thank you so much for taking the time to chat about real estate and rental management, how you got started and all that fun stuff.

How did I get started? Yes. So thank you for having me. Very excited to be here. And how I got started in real estate was actually kind of an accident. So I knew growing up that I wanted to work for myself and I knew that I had that entrepreneurial spirit, but I wasn't really sure what I was interested in. So I did go to college, grew up in Austin, Texas, went to University of Texas. So I stayed local and I went to school for business because it was pretty generic and I didn't have to decide yet. So I knew I wanted to do some business, but like, you know, don't, I'm, you know, 18, 19 years old. Don't make me commit to something. I don't know. I don't know what I wanna do. So I just chose like general business management and graduated college and did what you're supposed to do. You know, they say get a job, get married, have some kids, buy a house. Well, I did some of those, but not all of them. And I did end up buying a house. So I bought a crappy little condo and this was in Austin back in the good old days, like 2013 before it, you know, kind of went crazy. Yeah, it was, it was on the, it was on the beginning stages, but nothing like if you go visit now. So bought that condo and I had a partner and we had a roommate and combined they were paying my mortgage. And I, you know, no one told me that house hacking, which I now know it's called, right, was a, a concept. I was just like, hey, you know, I got extra space, come on down. And Over time, I was able to save quite a bit of money. So this was all on my own, my own property that I owned. And then a couple years down the road, my partner and I at the time, we split up. And in the span of 2 weeks, I went from living in my house to being moved out and having renters in the, in the property. Yeah. It was fast and it was hectic, but I knew, I knew a couple of things. So I knew that emotionally I couldn't live in the house, you know, I, not where I wanted to be after the breakup. I knew that I could not pay the mortgage on my own or, you know, just having it sit vacant. And I knew that being at this point, maybe 2013, 2014 or so in Austin, it would be insane to sell it. So I knew, hey, I got to keep this. I got to figure out a way to keep this. So I hodgepodge together a lease. I talked to, you know, anyone who— my family didn't manage real estate or anything like this. So anyone who even knew anything about real estate, I was trying to get every information I could from them. So like I said, in the very short amount of time, I accidentally was a housing provider.

Accidental landlord.

Yeah, accidental. Honestly, I think so many people start that way.

It is the origin story. Everyone you house hack and there's this light bulb like, oh my God, I'm not paying rent. And I swear everyone I talk— that's how I did it. I house— it was, it was roommates, right? It was Craigslist roommates.

Craigslist roommate. Yeah. Look back. I look back now and I was like, what were we thinking?

Right? Yeah. Total strangers in your house.

Like, yeah. I'm like, come on down.

Yeah, right. That's so awesome. That is like the smartest way to— there's so many things. Then you get your equity and you can leverage that. I mean, I've told that to so many people and very few like yourself have the kind of— I think it's a bit of intuition, gumption. I don't know what you want to call it. Right.

Well, I appreciate— no, I appreciate you saying that, but I will tell you my Leibold moment did not occur for years to come. I was doing this and I was like, oh, this is cool. And I went to business school. I had real estate. Never even occurred to me that this was like a career path. No one— I mean, I didn't—

No one talks about it, right? No one talks about it. No one knows that being an investor is a thing. Or at least I never heard that. You're an agent or maybe you're a landlord and you just become magically a landlord somehow.

Correct. Yeah. You're just— yeah, overnight you just are. But I didn't know anyone. Like my family growing up, we did own our home, but That was it. I mean, I didn't know anyone in my family who was doing this, family, friends. I mean, I wasn't exposed to real estate as a profession.

Mm-hmm.

So my lightbulb moment didn't come until I owned 3 properties in Austin, had 2 rented out, and then roommates in the one I was living in. So I was house hacking my own house, plus had 2 rentals. And then finally, finally figured out, hey, this could actually be my living.

You know, it's funny you say that because I didn't have that either. I just was having a roommate and I didn't really put it together until years. So yeah, no. Okay. I didn't have a job. I have to admit to that. So did you do the owner, um, owner-occupied thing and keep going with your houses or how did you? I did.

I did. Yeah. So I was buying the next property with owner-occupied financing.

That is like the secret. I think if you can do that and just keep kind of that domino thing. And that's what I tell people, like, you've got a W-2, like, just house hack, right?

And then yes, I mean, the catch is you have to move. So if you don't want to move, it does make it a little harder. But I was young, I had no ties, I had very little furniture. I mean, if you told me that now, that it would not fly, right?

Yeah. No, I'm pretty settled. I'm like, I'm beyond that.

Yeah, we're settled. We all have 5 of my pets.

Right? Yeah. Uprooting. Totally. No, it's not. But when you're young and you have that kind of a— you're just like, a lot is tied down, man. That's the advice I'd give anyone. Like, if you want to start, like, owner occupied, live rent free. Just—

Yes.

So awesome. So I feel like there is a select few of us that are landlords, and there's so many connotations, and there's so many kind of fears and myths. I mean, I've heard them all. I'm sure you have. I'd love to hear what you think are the most common ones are and kind of unpack them and why maybe they're not true.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I will start by saying, you know, the term landlord has such a negative meaning these days, especially— I mean, you're in Portland, I can't imagine with your liberal, you know, such a liberal city. We're in Columbus, Ohio, also very liberal, but the a little more accepted, I guess. So we actually use the term housing provider. It's a more— I don't get PC, I guess it's more accurate representation. Like, you know, landlord was back in the feudal system of like you're lording over someone. Yeah, yeah. I'm not the lord of your land. I own the home and I provide housing as a product. So we use the term housing provider, which is like such a small start in trying to change that perception. But some of the myths of being a housing provider are that you have to have a lot of money. So you have to have a lot of money to get started. The, you know, that crappy little condo that I bought in Austin, I put down $3,000. And that loan product that we use, it still exists. I mean, that wasn't a fluke. So you can get into your own home with, you know, if you're a veteran or I know there's some like teacher credits and all that, you can get into a house for under $10,000 of your, your own money. And then once you get more into like the actual, you know, purchasing as a rental product, we use the BRRRR method. Have you talked about this on a past podcast?

I know, but I think, I mean, if you want to unpack it, it's like, it's really—

should I go into it?

The coolest strategy. So yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. So I actually didn't fully embrace BRRRR until about 2, 2.5 years ago, and that's when our portfolio skyrocketed. So I was buying with conventional financing upfront. Which is, you know, 20% down. And to get 20% down, even in our market where the prices are, you know, pretty accessible, it still was taking 6 months to a year for every individual purchase.

Yeah.

So, I mean, you can't scale at that speed. So I finally figured out I unlocked the BRRRR strategy and it— we've been able to scale 20 to 30 properties a year since then. So damn. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what BRRRR does, it stands for buy, renovate, rent, refinance, and repeat. And Shona, I have a handout that we can attach to the podcast and it goes over all of this like in a visual reference. So if you guys want to go ahead and download that and follow along.

That would be awesome. We'll put in the show notes. Yeah, super generous. Yes, because it is super smart. Like, don't just flip and sell, like, hold it.

Right, exactly right. So what BRRRR does, and if you see the handout, you can follow along, is essentially you are going to buy the property with hard money or private money, and that means a short-term loan at a high interest. So hard money is a company, not a bank, but they, they act as a bank, but their entire purpose is short loans so you can buy cash. It basically acts as cash. And then same with private money, except private money is just an individual, you know, who may have a high net worth or some money that isn't making money, so they're willing to invest it in you. You pay them a double-digit return and then, you know, you get their money, they get the double-digit interest and everyone's happy. So you buy it with, with some sort of hard or private money and then that you're buying a property that needs renovations, right? Because we need to add the value. So in the first R, so we have buy, now we have Rehab. So in that R, we're going to add the value by doing renovations to, you know, increase it up to market rent, right? So we could be doing cosmetics, kitchen, bath, flooring, paint. We could be doing mechanicals, hot water tank, furnace, AC, roof, windows, or we could go as far as structural where we're moving walls, getting permits, maybe the basement needs some, you know, beams, that kind of thing. So you can get more or less aggressive on how comfortable you are with the rehab. Like you can definitely just do a carpet and paint rehab.

Lipstick.

Yeah. Yeah. So it doesn't necessarily matter how much renovation. We tend to err on like closer to cosmetic and mechanicals. There's just less risk once you start moving walls. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Once you start getting into structural, that's when all the craziness kind of starts.

So permits and all that.

Exactly right. Yeah, exactly. So then you're doing your renovation and once the property is renovated up to market standard, you are putting a renter in there at market rent. So depending on how good your renovation is. You know, we kind of comp our rents the same way you would comp a comparable sale if you're looking to sell a product. So if we're looking at a 3-bed, 1-bath in our neighborhood, in ours, you know, everything's renting for, say, $1,500, but ours is much nicer and maybe it has a little bit bigger garage. Okay, so we're going to go for $1,600, right? So you're just looking at your market rent the same as you would on a comparable sales. So then you put someone in at market rent, and then at this point, the bank has everything that they need to get into long-term financing. So that's where it— buy, rehab, rent, refinance. Okay, so at refinance, the bank wants to see market value rent in place plus the renovations that you've done, and then they're going to appraise the property, and that value is what's called the ARV, the after repair value. Now the bank is going to lend you between 70 and 80% of that after repair value. We'll use 75 for the example, that's really common. So they will give you 75% of what the property appraises for. So if it appraised for, for the sake of math, $100,000, they will loan you $75,000. Okay. Now imagine, again, this is probably not realistic, but for the sake of math.

Yeah.

I don't know. We get some pretty good deals in Columbus.

So I'm getting jealous. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, um, so the bank will give you 75. Say you purchase this property for $50,000 and then you put $25,000 into it, so you're all in for 75 of hard or private money, and then the bank will give you 75.

So you're, you're whole again.

Yeah, they give you all of— the bank will give you all of your money back so you can pay off your private or hard money lender, and then you own the property with 25% equity and cash flow every month.

It's brilliant. It's brilliant. And, and your mortgage will stay the same and your rents keep going up.

And that's, that's correct. Yep.

Yeah. Yep. So it's, it's such a brilliant strategy. A couple questions. So has this current high rates affected the strategy at all, or you just have to force that equity more to make that work?

That's a good question. Yes. Yeah, the rates have definitely hurt our cash flow. Also, banks before this kind of correction were lending at 80% loan-to-value, meaning on that $100,000 appraised value, they'll give you $80,000 instead of $75,000. So they're, they're conservative again. So 75, even some at 70. So they're just not willing to leverage as much of the value in the form of a loan. But they will, they will still do the loan. So it hasn't stopped the strategy at all. You just have to, you just have to know what the refi lender is willing to give you and then make sure that you don't go over that with your all-in cost.

It's all just, it's a numbers game, right?

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it's back and forth. Okay, one more question. Like, for someone like, I'm, I'm self-employed and I've kind of been using DSCR loans. Do you use an asset kind of loan or depends on your, if you have a W-2, if that makes sense?

Even without a W-2, if you have 2 years of tax returns as an independent, you know, business owner, I, I know that that's kind of hard starting out, but by the time you get a few of these going, like, it may have already been 2 years, right?

Time flies.

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, time flies. So if you are— if you have your W-2 and you're running your entrepreneur, you know, your business on the side, that's a great way to get those 2 years of tax returns before you fully pull the plug on the W-2, because then you're going to be more lendable. Those 2 years of tax returns are really key if you want to do any sort of conventional financing.

They want your firstborn or whatever you want.

They do.

Yeah. I also, I don't know if you recommend like kind of knowing a mortgage broker or kind of running your idea through them to know like, so you're really being realistic on what that loan to value is because it can change.

Yes. Oh, definitely. So before, well, we have 2 to 3 in each letter of the process at all times.

Okay.

So I'm pretty comfortable knowing what my refi lender is at.

Okay.

So I know that when I buy something in 2 months, by the time that buy gets all the way through the process and to the refi, that it could shift. Who knows? You know, COVID started in the span, you know, in 2 weeks our lives have changed. So, you know, it's not a foolproof plan by any means, but it's been pretty consistent. So if you're doing just one at a time, and that's completely fine if you are, just before you buy, speak to the refi lender just to see where they're at. Because it could definitely, you know, your purchase price clearly impacts your all-in, and you want that all-in to match what the bank is willing to give you for sure.

I feel like it's, it's like a sandwich purchase price and ARV, and you just got to do the math. Yeah, really, I think be, you know, a little conservative on the ARV, right? Even if you're not selling it, because absolutely.

Yeah. And I would say, so ask your lender about their loan-to-value which is the LTV, the percentage they will leverage. But ask your agent to run your comparable, you know, your comps, your ARV comps, because if you are not confident with what the property will be worth once it's fixed up, the appraiser won't be confident. Like, we don't buy any properties that are unique or unusual. Because if I don't know the value of the property, guess who also won't know the value?

Yeah.

So then you could get, you could get all the way through this. You have a renter in place and you think you're about to get all your money back and the appraisal comes in crazy. So we like to buy neighborhoods that are very congruent, similar layouts, 2, 3 bed, 1, 2 bath. You know, all they all have basements or they all don't have basement. Like we just, we like 'em to be very congruent. So it's very clear what our after repair value will be.

That's really strategic. Cuz yeah, if you get something that you can't run a comp on, then it just gets hairy. Or, and I also think saying, well, be realistic, cuz I've had agents and I love them, but they'll give me, especially when the market was hot, pretty pie in the sky ARVs. I'm like, that's very optimistic.

Yeah. If it doesn't work at a number you would be comfortable with on a, you know, a low appraisal, then you definitely, I mean, I would consider a different deal.

Yeah. I feel like you, it just, it's so critical to get those numbers and just have the margin. So even if you have to have a plan B, right?

Yes. Yeah.

It's a funny market we're in.

Awesome.

Well, thank you for unpacking that. I think it's, it's, it's a super cool strategy and it's a really way to leverage, you know, to build that long-term wealth. Versus short-term gain, right? It's really strategic. I would love to kind of dive into the benefits of self-managing, why you've chosen to do that versus hire a company.

Okay. Yeah, no, great, great question. This is something I am wildly passionate about.

Same.

And yeah, and the summary is that no one is ever going to care about your property like you do.

Mm-hmm.

Period. If someone tells you that they will, there should be red flags, sirens going off in your head, and you should be running the other way because they're lying. That person is comfortable lying to your face about this. You are purchasing, you know, $100,000 up to $1 million of an asset. You wouldn't take that amount of money and just turn it over to anyone and be okay with it. So why would you turn over your property to someone who has— it's human nature. They are not going to have your best interest. So, um, I did have property management for a while, uh, about a little under a year. That's as long as we made it.

Okay.

That's as long as we made it because the problems went away, as in I didn't hear about them.

Okay.

Until I started hearing about them and then I started digging and then they came snowballing more than I ever had when I was self-managing.

Really?

Okay.

Interesting. Yeah.

So really unhappy residents, people not getting any sort of replies. On their maintenance requests. Oh yeah. People who had paid rent but didn't get a receipt and were being told they didn't pay rent. I mean, just stuff that— it's shocking and that I didn't know anything about until I started asking the right questions. And at that point it was very, very clear that because this company was recommended top property management in Columbus. I'm like, if they can't do it, right? If they can't do it, I'm not gonna put— yeah. So I got, I got really serious about putting the systems and the processes and the people that I needed in place to bring everything back in-house.

Okay.

And just take it over ourselves. And I will never look back ever.

I mean, I've heard both sides, but I've heard enough of like, hey, they didn't tell me I had a vacancy for 3 months and they were out of the— and it's just like, that's my— yeah, it just makes me crazy.

And so a lot of these companies are managing, I would say, the small side, hundreds of units up to, you know, over thousands of units. How are they possibly going to keep up with those details?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're not, you're not really a priority, especially if you've got not a huge amount of doors.

Correct.

Yeah. Okay. So when you're considering taking in-house, actually, I'd love to know, like you said, team, like, I'd love to unpack who's on your team and how you're gonna structure that.

No, great follow-up because I wanted to add to the previous. When I say self-managing, I don't mean you as the property owner are out there driving around, collecting rent, putting notices on the door. That's not what I mean when I say self-managed.

Okay.

You have a couple of units, more power to you. You definitely can do it yourself. But if you're looking to scale, you can still self-manage by owning the process, owning the documents, owning how you want it done, even if you are not the one doing it.

Okay.

So we, I did, I did all of this by myself for a long time, really. Like looking back, I'm like, why was I doing that for so long? And so we now have, we have teams. I have part-time admin. She's remote. She works on her own schedule. It works for her and her family. It works for me. You know, she's paid by the hour and when we have more going on, I pay a bit more. And when we have, you know, when it's smooth sailing, then my bill's a little less. But it, um, with our portfolio now, it comes out to about $400 a week. $400 a week I pay her, and she handles all of our resident communication. She handles scheduling all of our maintenance requests. She handles collection of any late rents. And we do everything— I, I know we'll get to it, but we use software for all of this. So She's in our software, you know, every day handling all these requests. And I don't speak to our residents, so I am more focused on scaling the business. And then she and I speak, we probably text daily, but we have a dedicated call once a week for 2 hours.

I love that because those little things, like, I mean, I have software, but I'm the one kind of still doing the coordinating and I kind of intentionally went into software so I could do what you're doing. I haven't quite got there yet, but it really eats your time and the mindshare. And like just half the time I'm just texting the plumber, hey, and then I'm texting the tenants and here's a maintenance ticket. So I, so my question is, if you want to bring someone for the admin stuff, like are they trained in landlord-tenant law? Like how educated are they kind of in the property management kind of sphere of things? Or is it more just really admin?

That's a great question. So in Ohio, and I imagine it's different state by state, in Ohio you do not have to have your real estate license as long as you are just working for one person.

Okay.

If you start working for more than one owner, then you do need your license and you need a property management license. That's what we have here. Okay. So as long as she is just working with me, then she doesn't need a license. She's acting as a representative of the owner. And we go over fair housing. I was with her this morning. I actually walked into property. I show her all— we have a big focus on safety and function items. So if something isn't working or is unsafe, I genuinely do not care what it costs. We are gonna get it fixed.

Mm-hmm.

So is she's really focused on those items. So she understands safety and function and she, and she understands fair housing very well. But outside of that, I mean, we're, she's not doing anything that I'm not asking her to do as far as like eviction related or, um, is that kind of what you're getting at?

Yeah, I was just curious. And I'm also coming from like a very, uh, tenant-friendly place. So it's kind of a hot button issue. I think. But I believe if you provide safe, clean, stylish housing, you know, and you're generally not going to get into problems if you are a good housing provider. And I've heard that term before and I'm like, I like it, but I haven't quite taken to it.

Embrace it. Yeah.

Twisting to kind of get your head. And then I, yeah, I actually put that out in a group. I'm like, hey, what does everyone think? And then, you know, I'm like, do you like landlady? Landlady sounds awesome. Just like in the '70s or something.

Yeah, yeah.

Super helpful. And I think, again, it's like having the infrastructure so you're not in the weeds, kind of like working on your business, not in it, because you should be growing it, not communicating over a leaky toilet or something. Yep. I feel like when people— I've told the strategy, hey, you move out of your house, keep it. And people are so just— I don't know. They're really terrified of that landlord thing. Has so many negative— I think there's just so many negative experiences.

I don't know.

Do you have any advice for people that are just really scared of like the 2:00 toilet call, which I never get, but people think you get?

Yeah, I would say like toilets are so much more functional than people imagine. And it's like, this toilet mostly works, like, right? Yeah, it works like 99.9% of the time.

Yeah.

So we are huge on setting expectations. That my entire business and honestly life has been built around setting expectations. So we have a welcome letter that we, you know, have signed. We have it signed along with the lease and it outlines what you can and cannot put in the toilet as one of, as one of 30 other things you can and cannot do. So Is someone still going to do it? Probably. Do they understand the expectation that this is not allowed? Should you do it anyways, this is the consequence. So, and also if you have 2 toilets in your house, it's not an emergency anyways.

It's totally fair point.

It's not.

It's not.

It's not like, so if you, if you are worried about the toilet being an emergency and you have 2 toilets, just get that idea outta your head. You're never going to have the emergency.

And I've, and they generally, to your point, they don't. And, and all toilets are pretty cheap too. It's a pretty easy thing as well, even if you have to replace it. When I realized that a couple years ago, I'm like, oh, I didn't realize it was that big of a deal.

It's like to, and even if there's something down there that a plunger can't get, a snake for $300 from a plumbing company will get the job done. And I'm going to bill my resident because they were explicitly told not to XYZ and they did it. So here's the bill.

See, I have, I have never done that and I probably should start doing that because if it's something they cause, I just have like mental hang up on it.

But yeah, it's so, it's, it's impossible to do unless you tell them ahead of time.

That makes— okay.

It's like, you know, like a kid, you, if you're— and I don't want to equate our residents to children, but they are kind of, I think they are. We, we are in the affordable housing space, so we have a lot of kind of entry-level rent rentals where we're working with someone whom it's their first time renting. And so I have not a problem going over 3 pages of expectations with someone, having them sign it and holding them to that expectation because I'm training them how to rent a home for the rest of their life, you know, hopefully buy a home. But I'm preparing them to be part of caring for a home for the rest of their lives.

And I love that. And I think it's a skill because like your next place is going to use you as a reference and then eventually you want to buy a house. They're going to ask you if you paid your rent on time. So yeah, I've had a couple groups of college kids and I felt like I was doing like a Rental 101 course, you know, because they never rented. I'm like, you're lucky you got me because I'm really nice. And I will— yes. And through like all the utility and all the things. And it was just, yeah, I'm like, I just, I should offer a course.

Shona, put it in writing. Have the conversation one time, note down everything that you told them, put it in writing and have them sign it.

You know, I have a welcome letter and I used to have people sign it and then I think I got kind of complacent and I stopped having them sign it. But it's a good reminder because I am very specific on garbage is this day. Like every, the light comes on. I don't want to say that like so 100%, but I think the signing You're kind of— it's the expectations, I think.

Yes.

Yeah. And I think that's so important because like people want— they want to be helped, like they want good and they really want good communication. I think that's when landlords don't respond, even if you're like, hey, the part's delayed, just let people know. The worst is not knowing.

So absolutely. No, absolutely. So I noticed that you said you got complacent about having your welcome letter signed. I would challenge you to outsource that because yes, I put it, so my admin, her name's Cassie. I am always saying everyone needs a Cassie. So I love it. So I outsource it to Cassie with the checklist. So when someone moves in, we do boom, boom, boom, boom.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't do it because I can't be trusted. I can't because if I don't do it, I'm only letting myself down.

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

But if she doesn't do it, she's letting me down. So it's much more likely it's going to get done when you outsource those repeatable tasks.

It's so true. And I, I mean, I even have software I could put it in. So like I, yeah, that's, it's a really good, thank you. That's a good reminder. Well, so is there anyone else on your team before we move on as far as like admin or any other team members? Like, you know, obviously there's your subs, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Cassie, she does our computer-based scheduling and anything inside of our software. But then we have a handyman or handy person trying to be more PC about that. Yeah, we have a handy person. We have, they can do most things that are required for a rental because keep in mind, we did a full renovation on this property before it was rented out. So they're doing small little— an outlet's not working or something like that. There's a small leak under the sink. They're not doing— God, I can't even think. Like, hey, my garage door fell off. And then we have, of course, specialty trades. So if there is anything bigger, plumber, carpenter. We do specifically have a garage door company.

I do too, right? Someone's like, you know a garage? I'm like, yeah, I've had 2 or 3. So it's right, super specific.

But yeah, so I like to just kind of be on a text basis with all of these guys and I just put Cassie on a chat with them. She, I follow along. You know, she's been with me now almost a year and I think I'm about ready to get off some of these texts because she's so trained and yeah, she's so good. Okay. I was catching myself in the beginning, um, chiming in a lot more often.

Mm-hmm.

But I really, she's, she's getting it herself now. So this isn't something that's going to happen overnight. I don't want someone to just think, hey, I'm gonna put an admin in place and step away because that's the same as hiring property management.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. But no, once you— I mean, that upfront time, then it frees you up so much, right?

Correct.

Correct. Okay. So I think that's a good segue into, like, software. I have my favorites, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on, like, what you're using and why and all that stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. So we actually have software broken into two different categories. We have our property management system, which is all resident-facing, and then we also have our data management system, which is more backend and kind of owner-facing. And I think so many investors overlook this. Property management, super obvious. Resident has a sign-in, they pay their rent, they submit their maintenance requests, their lease is stored there, etc. Right. So if the resident needs it, that's— it's all there. What people often overlook is the behind-the-scenes tracking. When I go— it took me years to get here, so don't feel bad if you aren't here right now. When I go to submit for my taxes, it takes a couple hours because I have everything lined up to a T. I have every record of every mortgage that we have. I have the current value of all of our properties. I have appraisals all in one place. I have what I paid for every renovation. I have any evictions. I have all of my inspections all stored in— we use Podio. It's a kind of— do you know Podio?

Yeah, I've toyed with it. You're using that for your data. That's interesting.

For data.

Yeah. CRM, right? Or am I mixing?

No, it's a CRM. I am— I'm happy.

That's a really interesting point because I think everyone thinks like, okay, repairs, but you don't think about when you're presenting to a lender, even a PML like having your ducks in a row and that data is like, that's, that's really smart.

Yes. Yeah. So there's, you know, like your schedule of real estate. So any lender on that third R, when you go to refi, the lender is going to say, hey, tell me everything you own, when you bought it, how much you paid for it, what you currently owe on it, and what like investors are Before I put this in place, I would melt down, right? Like, ask for that. Yeah, 3 weeks later, I'm like maybe starting to put it together because I'm like crying, trying, you know. So if you are consistent and proactive on managing your behind-the-scenes data, you are able to move that much faster. So a huge foundation on Everything we do is slow down to speed up. Yes, I, I live by it. So yes, every time I sign a mortgage on a hard or private money loan, guess what? I'm sitting down for 15 minutes, my data management system, and I am putting all of it in because when my lender wants on the backside and I push a button and it exports, then I'm— doesn't take me 3 weeks, it took me 15 minutes.

And you have that really big picture kind of all that data because it's like, you know, I have it in folders and it's in this, it's on Google Drive. It's did, but it's not like accessible. I would, right.

It's a lot of digging and it's not reportable. So can you, could you tell me, and you don't have to, but like right now, could you tell me the current value of your portfolio?

Yeah, no, I mean, I have in some spreadsheet somewhere and, you know, on some deep folder somewhere because I've had to do that, right, for hard money or whatever. You're like, but it's also good to know because I think that whole gap gain thing, some days you're like, I'm just not at this many doors, but you're like, but I've gotten this money, right? Kind of. It's also a way to—

I don't know, I haven't heard gap gain.

I'll send you a link, but it's essentially like, I think as entrepreneurs, right, the bar is always moving. We're like, maybe we started out with no rentals and now we have a handful, right? But we feel like, but this person has 200. So we're always like measuring against someone else. But if you measure kind of backwards where you've come in, like, knowledge or doors or systems or whatever it is, and like kind of measuring your wins versus the, the bar that always moves, right? So it's just a good way to measure yourself against yourself versus everyone out there that's killing it, and you feel like, you know, small potatoes.

No, I love it. I love it.

I think it's the entrepreneurial kind of, uh, just at least for me, that's something that I'm like, I'm always measuring against something else or feeling— and I forget, while I've learned so much, right, I know strategies I had no idea were a thing. So yeah.

Right, right. No, I love that. I haven't heard— I've kind of heard it more as like imposter syndrome.

Yes, that it's kind of an antidote to that, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so guilty of it. I have to check myself every other day.

I mean, right now I feel like I'm— who am I to do a podcast, right? Yeah. No, it's like, I think everyone probably that's successful has that because we're also around super successful people. That's who we surround ourselves with.

And, uh, yeah, yeah, it's like I was saying, growing up and through college, I didn't know one person in this world. And then you just take one little foot in, a tiny little step in, and it opens up. Like, you could be sitting on an airplane next to someone who owns 1,000 doors and you would have not a clue. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like there's so many people out there doing the same thing as you and we just don't even know it until we take the effort to like get out there and meet people.

It's so true. And I think that if you are showing how you are doing good things and maintaining, people aren't going to judge you. And I think there's a lot of like, you know, at least I worried about that. I was like, I only own a cup, but you know, it's a handful. But like for a lot of people, even owning a house is like a milestone, right?

So yes. Yeah.

Yeah. That's so important. Okay. I love the data piece, Podia. So, and I just have to ask, like, I mean, I think for us, like software, there is, for anyone that hasn't, there's so much software that has automates, like you said, rent collections. Some of them are even now allowing tenants to like self-report their rent, which is great for credit.

Yes.

Yeah. Really cool features. And there's a resident portal. Do you have a favorite software? Does it depend on how many doors?

So we are currently in the process of switching, which is a huge undertaking. It is not a small task.

Yeah.

So I would recommend, depending on where you think you want your portfolio to be, you may just wanna bite the bullet and plan ahead a bit. So we started on TenantCloud, which if you're looking for a portfolio of 20 or fewer units, well, you'll be good forever. Okay, so we got past that 20 and there's some challenges. So we're actually switching to Buildium now. TenantCloud starting is $9 a month. How could you say no to that when you have such a, you know, I don't want to say small, but you're, you're just managing a handful. It's, I mean, it's a steal, an absolute steal. When you get to 60 plus, like the cost of these better features, it is divided between so many units that it's nominal at that point. But if you think you're going to really scale up above 20, I would consider, I would consider Buildium or Appfolio. They're going to run $150 up depending on your units. I think we pay about $250 now. Which starting out that would've been very difficult, but now the difference in features, it makes sense.

Yeah, I switched from, well, I did a couple jumps, but I went from Apartments.com, which had been migrated to, um, Port, um, Buildium. And it's probably, but I'm kind of, it's probably a little more enterprise than I need, but like, like to your point, switching is a pain and the functionality is like great. I mean, it's really streamlined so much. And it's a learning curve. I'm on support a lot. I'm like, how do I do this? Like, right? But it's—

their support is really good.

Really good. Yeah. Like, I'm like, I— yeah, I'm always learning. But I think it's to your point, like, if you're going to grow, like, plan ahead because switching is— you got to get your tenants moved over and it's just—

it's a big deal. I should have done this honestly 40 units ago, but I was like, no, it'll be okay. It'll be okay. Yeah. But now I'm like, oh no.

Of switching. Okay, cool. It's just good to know because there's, again, I think there's so many tools out there you can get really overwhelmed, right? But I think to your point, like paying a little more, especially if you have a team in place, is well worth it because switching later, it's, it's not worth it. And yeah, there's so many things I like about it. All right. So I guess just to kind of wrap it up here, is there, you know, a breaking point where you were like, okay, do you think there's a cap on like how many doors you can self-manage? Or if you have the right team, it's kind of like The sky's the limit.

Sky's the limit.

Okay.

I think that if you don't self-manage, there is a limit to how big you can grow because you're going to get the headaches. They're going to come back to you eventually. You're going to need to sell the property or the property management goes out of business or they drop you or something. And those headaches are coming back and they're all coming back at once.

Months.

So you are going to get steamrolled with catching up with everything that hasn't been done. So I actually see it as self-managing allows you to scale because you know what's coming, right? You know what challenges per— you, you understand your portfolio and no one's going to understand it like you do. So you are able to actually scale because you can get ahead of any little issues that aren't going to derail a whole week of your life down the road.

I, I've never quite heard it put that way. That's really interesting. 'Cause you have your moments where you're like, am I crazy? And a lot of people are like, oh, you should never self-manage. But the way there is so many—

Let me talk to them. Put, yeah, put me in touch.

Because, you know, sometimes, especially in a place where it's very, again, tenant-friendly and, you know, you're sometimes you question yourself, but that's super helpful. And I think it's the key, like you've been really stressing, is the systems and the team and you're not really in it. Right. So that's, thank you so much. Well, yeah, we could go on forever and we should probably wrap up. So a couple, so again, this is one of those big questions. Take it however you want. Do you have any business or life advice to live life on your terms?

To live life on your own terms. I wish that I had done this so much earlier than I really embraced it, is I wish I would've just trusted myself.

Mm-hmm.

And trusted my instinct and my intuition. I was slow to make decisions. I was reserved. And it's easy to say that now that you've done it a bunch of times.

Yeah.

And you know, I am incredibly thankful for all the time I spent learning, but I think that I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't aggressive enough in believing in myself. Is that helpful?

That's super. I'm just nodding cuz I, I feel like, yeah, you, um, You kind of have to take that leap, and the sooner you do it, the more you'll realize, like, anything that you're terrified of, you're gonna figure it out, you're gonna learn it, and it's— yeah, then you're building your future. The sooner you start, the more you're building this thing. And yeah, you just— yeah, I think into trusting— it's hard to do, but it's—

it's hard to do. I think that I was so fearful of making a mistake that it took me years to realize mistakes are inevitable. So what, what was I hiding from? Because you're going to make the mistake. The faster you make them, the faster you learn from it. And don't— I'm not saying like, you know, be irresponsible and just rush into some crazy deal or something like that. But if you're working with the right people, if you understand the BRRRR model specifically for what I'm doing, and you have a good agent, you have a good mentor, you have a good coach, you have someone you can lean on, just trust the process and trust yourself in that process because it's worked for hundreds. I mean, how many housing providers are out there? Hundreds of thousands. Like, it's worked, it's worked for them, so why wouldn't it work for you? You just have to trust that it will.

It's true. And I think to your point, the mentor and people, and I don't know, I feel like it is a very supportive community there. It's not competitive, at least for my, been my experience. People are more than willing. They're very generous. They've oftentimes made it and they want to give back, right? So I think, yeah, there's people out there. I think great advice. Okay. One more question. Your superpower, maybe like how you use it in your, in your business?

Hands down is networking. I love talking to people and I love sharing my story because real estate has You know, radically changed my life and I want to shout to everyone out there, specifically women, that this, like, no one told me this was a career path. I just wanna yell at all the little kids, real estate's a career.

Right.

And, and so networking, I ju— I am on a mission to talk to everyone I can and connect folks with, you know, someone who maybe a want or a need or something that they can, um, commiserate together, or, you know, whatever it may be.

I love that. And that's kind of— I think it is— anyone can do this. You don't need a degree, you don't need your own money. Like, there's so many myths. So I love that you said that. We kind of covered this, but like a book or a podcast or resource you'd recommend can be your own.

So I recently— not recently, in the last 6 months— I finished We Should All Be Millionaires, Rachel Rodgers. It is woman-focused, female-focused, um, and basically says that we should stop apologizing for making money as women and that we need to be in the same room that men are. And when we sell ourselves short, we're actually taking our power and our contribution out of society. So, you know, so many people say, well, I don't need to make a million dollars. Okay. Or do you? Because what you could take that money and do for the world is infinitely worth more than the money you made.

It's so true. That impact, right? You have the agency.

Yeah.

And you have the resources, right? Because yeah. Yeah, no, love it.

We should all be millionaires. Definitely. I read it, but I want to listen again on audiobook. I heard the audiobook was really good.

I'm a huge audio fan. I do like 1.5 times. I drive around.

Put that on your list and we'll check back in.

Perfect. Okay, last question. I know you have a course, so how can people find you, work with you, check out your course?

Yeah, so it's called Rentals Made Easy Method, and we teach other housing providers how to buy and self-manage their own rental portfolio. We cover establishing the essentials, so that's, you know, getting your business set up, your building a team. We cover getting your property rent ready. So renovations, what you should and shouldn't focus on. We cover finding the right renter. That is such a scary hot topic for, you know, up-and-coming housing providers who are fearful of finding the, the wrong person and their house is trash. So we go over step by step exactly how to screen and vet them and all that. And then we look at ongoing care. So these are your maintenance requests, your inspections, and move-in, move-out. These are the things that are going to happen over and over as long as you own it. So outside of that's all on-demand, there's on-demand videos. We have over 6 hours of content that you can watch as you're at that step of the process. And then we also have weekly open Q&A calls. We have the Resource Vault, which is like the holy grail of every single document reference worksheet that you would need to, uh, manage a rental property. So we're at, I wanna say it's like over 8 pages now. And, and that's links out to the actual documents. That's not the documents, that's just the links to the documents. So you get that, you get a 30-minute kickoff call with me. So we look at your business, we look at your goals, we look at, you know, kind of where you should be focusing in the course to kind of hit your objectives. And then we also have a members-only Facebook group. So those questions are getting answered same day. So you're getting, you know, support from myself as well as the, the rest of the student community.

I love that. I think it's such a need that isn't really, there's not a lot of reason. And again, you buy it, but like how, how do you manage it and all those things?

Correct.

Sounds really, I'm like, I wanna sign up, but I already know what I'm doing. Yeah. Calling me on it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time.

Yeah, you're very welcome.

Um, super fun, and I hope inspiring for, uh, folks to kind of just take that leap. And yeah, you know, it's not so scary, right?

It's not so scary. It's not so scary. You can do it. If I can do it, just literally making it up as I went.

But it's so fun to have you.

Yay.

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