The Power of Design in Real Estate Investing

But we are setting up ourselves for, for success and to really build the business and achieve our goals of financial freedom by being present, by building our core team, by relocating to Kansas City and really taking this delayed gratification to heart, leaving our swanky life in Seattle and coming to Kansas City to really be boots on the ground, to learn about a new aspect of our profession that we hadn't learned about just because we were like adjacent but not in the real estate world. Like, I have these 10 markets, how do I choose one? And I'm like, just choose one, just go for it. Because taking action is more important. Like, you will not have your core team. Don't expect to build your core team before you buy your first property. Part of the reason why we moved to Kansas City was Let's build our team. We had bought our property, our first property, sight unseen while we were with Josh's dad in hospice in New Jersey. That's— we were literally signing documents for our first property.

That was tough.

We did not have a team. We did not have a team whatsoever, but we made a decision. We said, this is our market.

Welcome to the Cedar and Porch Real Estate Investment Podcast. I'm the host, Shona Lepis. Follow along as we unpack and demystify real estate investment strategies through expert interviews and personal experience. From how to find off-market deals to creative financing to long-term and midterm rentals, our goal is to educate and inspire others to gain financial freedom and generational wealth through real estate investing. Welcome everyone. We have some fabulous guests today, Diana Asso and Josh Dobkin. They're pretty much a power couple. They're architects, designers, and real estate investors. They have a really impressive resume. Diana works as an architect for an award-winning firm based in Seattle. Her primary focus is in the design and presentation of large multifamily housing projects, particularly student housing. And Josh Dobkin currently works as a designer for an international firm based in Kansas City, focused on sports sporting venues and large-scale projects. His focus is on creative problem solving for the design and construction of large sporting venues, and all the way from design details through construction management. That's really big range there. That's awesome. So together they began their real estate investing in 2021 in Kansas City, Missouri, and I'm going to not say this right, Medallion Columbia. Excuse me. They currently have 5 doors and are focused on value-add properties, rehabbing and using their design and construction skills to improve properties. And provide beautiful spaces to their tenants. They use a mix of short, midterm, and long-term rental strategies. And also, just super side note, Diana and I both have in common that we have a degree in studio art. So fun fact there. So you guys, just maybe just start with a little background, where you are today, where you came from, all that good stuff.

Yeah, thank you, Shawna, so much for introducing us. Like you mentioned, I'm Diana, and this is Josh. I am from Medellín, Colombia. That's how you pronounce it.

Thank you.

And yeah, so like you mentioned, I came here to the US for college. I studied studio art, focused on drawings, and then from there did my master's in architecture and construction management. That's where Josh and I met. And then just a little bit of myself. I work for a Seattle-based architecture firm. I focused in multifamily developments all around the country, and we are currently living in Kansas City, and we'll get more into the details of it. But like you mentioned, we moved from Seattle to Kansas City to pursue financial independence through real estate. And we moved a year ago almost to the date, and we've acquired 5 properties and in the process of learning and growing and running our own company and our own investments. Lots of goals and dreams for the future. So I'll let you introduce yourself.

All right.

Hey everybody. And thank you so much, Shona, again for having us on here. I'm Josh Dobkin. And I'm originally from the East Coast. I'm from Red Bank, New Jersey, Jersey Shore, and not the one that you probably think of on the TV show. It's a little bit different. I went to school for finance and architecture at Syracuse University. Spent some time between undergrad and grad school where I met Diana talking, sorry, in between finance and architecture and figuring out where I exactly want to fit into the whole thing. And then I ended up going to grad school doing master's in construction management and architecture, then moved to Kansas City and worked for this sports firm that I'm currently at. Went on, worked on site to build a new NHL arena in Seattle. And then we decided to move to Kansas City for real estate. And the rest is what we'll get into, I'm sure. So.

You guys are like, your background, what I love about real estate is whatever your background is, it just, you can translate it. But you guys are so uniquely positioned to be like, to just kill it in real estate, like construction management and design, all the things that most people, you know, just, they watch HGTV and like, I wanna make a pretty house.

To that point, I would definitely say, at least for me, I never really knew exactly where I wanted to fit into the building environment. And I always knew that finance, at least at an undergraduate level, would be supportive of any direction I wanted to go in. Obviously, we all need to make careers out of things and find ways of making some money. And finance and knowledge of finance is always valuable. And then the construction management and architecture just fit in very well with that as well. And I think the studio art also has a lot of value. How does it bring value to it?

No one ever—

I think it brings value.

Yeah, that is— I feel like it's also the right-left brain thing, right? Like, you have to be really creative, and then you have to— but you have to run a spreadsheet, right? Like, you really have to. As entrepreneurs, those are two really strong hats, because you can be a great designer, but if you go over budget, it's really no profit, right? If you don't know how to manage. So I really want to talk about design, but I'm— I just— I find it so intriguing that you guys took, I think, a major theme that I think is take massive action, right? Just do it. So how did you guys decide to up and move? That's just, that's really ballsy, I guess.

And I, yeah, we would, I think everyone that knows us would say the same thing. I think people questioned our sanity at one point. So yeah, I think, I think the theme for us really this past year or two has been delayed gratification. Like every step of the process. That has been the constant, which is hard to do in a world that's constantly changing and constantly pivoting. And you have to grasp yourself and just never lose track of like why you're doing what you're doing. So just to backtrack a little bit of the reason why for us this has meant so much and what has taken us to where we are. Obviously the pandemic hit everyone in similar ways and other not so similar, but we all, I think as a culture, felt trapped and Rethinking life and like what it meant.

Prioritizing.

Yeah. And I think to us, we were at a specific point in our lives. We were living in a luxury apartment building in Seattle. Josh mentioned he was relocated from Kansas City to Seattle to build this arena, and we were very fortunate that his company paid for all of our living expenses. So we were house hacking before even knowing what house hacking meant. We were living in complete luxury downtown Seattle, all of our living expenses paid for. And so we started— we had a lot of money saved that I think like it is worth noting because I know that it's not the same case for everyone to be able to save money that quickly. We were in a very fortunate position, but at the same time it started questioning like, what do we do with this? What's the smartest thing to do? Obviously putting it into a savings account was not the smart decision. And honestly, a lot of things happened between like when that first thought appeared in our minds to like what got us to Kansas City. Unfortunately, both of us in 2021 lost our fathers. My dad died from COVID He got struck with COVID early 2021, pre-vaccines. The world is collapsing. Hospitals are completely overwhelmed. And that completely took us by surprise. We, for, and Josh can speak more into this, but for the last 5 years to that, his father had been diagnosed with cancer, with multiple myeloma, which is a blood cancer. So for the last 5 years, our main focus had been his father. Let's be there. Let's be with family. And never in a million years did I imagine I I'm going to lose my family members. So that was personally to me, that was something that really struck me coming out of COVID was just the thought process had already started about what am I doing? What am I working so hard for? For those that know the architecture industry, it's a very demanding industry. We easily can work 100+ hours a week. It's very demanding, very time-consuming. Pay is not great despite whatever movies want to tell you. That is a huge misconception. So we already had all these thoughts coming up in our minds and then life just— I just feel like life just slapped us on the face at the end of 2021 where I lost my father, Josh's dad died months later, and we were like left in the middle being like, Where are we going? What is the point of life? At the end of the day, what truly matters? And readjusting all of our priorities and what we wanted to do with our lives. And that's when we got serious and we said, okay, a change is needed. Let's bite the bullet. Let's take it and let's do what it needs to— what needs to happen. And we know at that point we had been that whole time, I think one of our coping mechanisms, which tells you a little bit of maybe our personality, was reading real estate books, was absorbing as much information, podcasts, connecting with people from the internet, like seeing their story, seeing what they were doing. So we had been doing in the back end all this self-education that when all of this hit and we— I feel like everything collapsed at the same moment. And that's when we were like, okay, a change is needed. How about we pick up our lives? We know that Seattle is extremely expensive. Yes, we could invest in real estate from out of state. A lot of people are very successful at it, but we truly believed if we— at least for us, and that's just our level of comfort— we wanted to be successful. We didn't I think our fear was we'll try it, we'll fail, and we're gonna get too scared to try it again. So how about we just educate ourselves and try to do the best we can from day one so that we are gonna make mistakes and let's just expect that we're gonna make mistakes and we're gonna fail at it, but we are setting up ourselves for, for success and to really build the business and achieve our goals of financial freedom by being present by building our core team, by relocating to Kansas City and really taking this delayed gratification to heart, leaving our swanky life in Seattle and coming to Kansas City to really be boots on the ground to learn about a new aspect of our profession that we hadn't learned about just because we were like adjacent but not in the real estate world. So yeah, that has been, I think, and please add whatever I've missed.

That was pretty lengthy. That was a lot of information that I think I would've touched on too. I think a couple things I would add to that though, Diana and I both had very different experiences with our fathers passing away. Hers was unexpected and she never even in a million years thought 12 months prior, that's the situation her life would end up being in. I had known about my father's illness and his direction for a long time and somehow still thought, when I'm done with this project, when I'm done working on this thing, I'll have time. I'll have time to, to spend with him. I'll take a month or two off and we'll do something together. My father passed away 3 days after my project ended. It was literally 3 days. I wasn't even there to be involved in the opening ceremony with the rest of my project team because I was in the hospital. We were in the hospital. And it was just, wow, no family member is someone that is there forever. And you might think that they will be, or you might plan for them to be there, but you don't know. It's just that, that was at least for me. I think Diana, she had already gone through a lot of that personally months prior, and her direction was already set in stone. Mine, I was a little less committed at first in that sense, and it really opened my eyes up to it too and said the only way that we get ourselves into the life that we want, the freedom that we want, is to really find ways to take back our hours and to not let our jobs just consume us completely. It's easy when you're career-focused and when you're driven to career achievements or when you're working in project-related work to, to lose sight of really what is important. And I think that what became so painfully clear to us on the, at the beginning of our real estate journey was how important our priorities were and how important it was to make sure that we realigned them with the active, with the activities we were surrounding ourselves with. So it was very much a crucial part of that journey. And, and then we did look at starting real estate months prior to that, and we looked at Tacoma, we looked at some other areas in Seattle and it was like, it's not gonna work here. We're not gonna be able to do some of the things that we're learning about. Why not go do it in Kansas City where we can? And that's how we ended up coming back to Kansas City. So I'll leave it at that.

Thank you for sharing. That is, yeah, it speaks to why we do this, right? And we can, in theory, have our own agency and that takes some massive action and a leap of faith. And kudos to you guys for kind of channeling that, I guess, and taking that action. Cause that's, That's a big lifestyle change. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Gosh, there's some, so yeah, no, that's just, I'm sorry. That is, but I think a lot of people are, a lot of people do this education and there is so much information out there, but I think the taking action part, like that's, you analyze to death, you're like, it's too expensive, but you guys just packed up and you, it is very delayed. It's a very long game, right? I'm sure your investments down the road, you'll be on a beach someday. But right now you're in the weeds. Yeah. That's— thank you for sharing that. I think we all need to keep our why in mind because there's days, like, I think you had a pipe break recently and you just question yourself.

Like, very recently.

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, so you did you like, I'm curious when you were looking at markets, were you underwriting deal, looking at numbers? Like, how did you know that was the right place for someone that may be like, wow, I guess I'm in an expensive market. Like. How did you know that was kind of the right place to start?

I guess I'm sorry. So like Josh mentioned, we did start at first. We're like, the easiest thing will be let's do it in our backyard. And I think that is— there's a sense of comfort with that. I think a lot of people gravitate to is I need to be there in case the phone rings. So we did start. We were living in Seattle. We started looking in Tacoma and the outskirts of the city. And very quickly we realized this market does not work for our goals. I think one crucial thing that I would say is from day one we knew what our goal was. We needed cash flow. That was what was going to set us free, so to speak, from our profession, from depending on it financially. So we knew a market like Tacoma, Seattle, those are appreciating markets. Those are very high entry-level markets that do not cash flow. So very quickly we realized this is not the market for us. Okay, step 2, where else can we invest? Where can we build a team? We kept hearing, and everyone knows, your core 5, build your core 5. Your team is your success. Okay, where do we know that we could build this team? And initially we were both like, we both went to school in St. Louis, maybe that's where we start. But at the same time, the people that we went to school with, only one of them is still there. Like, we don't have a strong community there right now. We haven't been back in years. Okay, not St. Louis. Then step 2, okay, what about Kansas City? Josh lived in Kansas City for 2 years prior to moving to Seattle. He knew the city. His company was still there. It's a company full of architects that have a lot of connections, that have— that if we needed something, we could call, hey, can you walk this property? Hey, can you look 'Look at this.' So honestly, that was as quick as we made a decision. Kansas City it is, because that was our unfair advantage. We knew the market. We could build our team there. And I've had a lot of conversations recently with people who are starting up who keep asking the same question, like, 'I have these 10 markets. How do I choose one?' And I'm like, 'Just choose one. Just go for it.' Because taking action is more important. Like, you will not have your core team. Don't expect to build your core team before you buy your first property. Part of the reason why we moved to Kansas City was let's build our team. We had bought our property, our first property, sight unseen while we were with Josh's dad in hospice in New Jersey. That's— we were literally signing documents for our first property.

That was tough.

We did not have a team. We did not have a team whatsoever. But we made a decision. We said, this is our market. Let's focus here only. And then I know it's hard. Not everyone's in the same situation as us to be able to pack their bags and leave, but then choose that market and focus on like that. Okay, this market, what do I know about it? Do I have an uncle? Do I have a grandmother? Do I— have I visited and know that it's a cool city? People to visit. Any reason to me is good enough because real estate is successful all across the country. Like, you can make it successful anywhere. So for us, it was very quickly, no, okay, yes, Kansas City, let's build our team. And we literally started from zero. We came to Kansas City, we didn't have a contractor, we didn't have a handyman, didn't have a cleaning person. Like, you just go through the process and slowly this past year we've been building that team.

And I would jump onto that and also say, excuse me, that if you don't start building a team, you'll never know who is part of it and who is not part of it. And I think it's really important. And that's one of the best advantages of moving to the place where you are going to invest is that you boots on the ground, you get to know those people, you'll see them, you'll interact with them, you'll get to know about their lives, what their goals are, and see how they align and find the people that synergize with your skills the best. That's so important. And yeah, we knew Kansas City, but we didn't know Kansas City in the sense of having people. And it was just a, a big advantage for us to know or have people from my office, from the firm I'm working at, who were able to say that neighborhood's kind of good. That one's good. We literally, I had never heard of the place that we were going to invest in, in Kansas City. While we were in Seattle and I was talking to my colleagues and I was going, hey, what do you think of this area? And they're like, that's a good area. That's a place that I'd love to be. And we, I trusted their opinions and we went forward with it. We flew out to Kansas City and visited it, checked it out and we said, this seems pretty good. But that was how we started developing the team here in Kansas City was by just getting started. And some people that we started with are not people that we've continued working with. But we never would've known that if we didn't start. So you just gotta start somewhere.

It's so true. So I have to ask, I feel like there's a lot of people that preach like, you can do it remotely. You can, I've always been like, clearly you guys, you have the design, all that. So I, the boots on the ground, did you consider remote investing? I just have to ask cause I feel like that's always, I, I like to, I'm very, um, particular and I, I want things done very to a high standard. Was that an option or you just knew that you could build something to your point with boots on the ground?

And we definitely did consider it. We've looked at a few other markets. One of the first steps that we took while we were in Seattle was just looking at, we looked at areas where we looked at Phoenix, for example, because we heard a lot of good things about Phoenix. We didn't know anybody in Phoenix. We visited, we went on vacation to Scottsdale and Phoenix once. We loved it. We thought this is a great area for some sort of short-term, midterm kind of investment. And we just started looking up neighborhoods and scouring it, and then we felt more comfortable really moving back into the areas where we thought we would move to. So that was how we got to it. I'm sure you could add more to that.

Yeah, I would just add, I think you can 100% be successful doing it out of state. So many people have done it. I think it really depends on your level of comfort. Yeah. And your level of risk. We definitely considered it. And I will say, probably one of the most influential people that we don't work with anymore that kind of put the idea in our heads of relocating was our mortgage lender. Yeah. And, and it's interesting because people always tell you like you need to work with investor-friendly everything, realtor, mortgage, like someone that can really advise you to make the best decisions. And I remember my company's in Seattle. I, we absolutely love Seattle. In my mind, there was no way we were leaving Seattle. And I remember speaking to him on the phone and he continued asking me, he's, are you sure you don't want to do owner occupied? And I was like, no, no, no. I was like, no, please stop asking. I don't know how many times I have to tell you I am not moving to Kansas City. I feel when people say, I'm not going to move there, like I feel it because that was me. And it wasn't until like many conversations with him that he was like, wait, hold on, let me tell you why. And this is what he said to us. He said, you guys have a very particular story. Josh lived in Kansas City. He was relocated by his company to Seattle. His project literally just ended, and he literally has in his contract that he's supposed to come back to Kansas City. So why don't you buy owner-occupy? You can live in it for a few months. You decide not to live in it, so you decide you hate it. Whatever the case is, it doesn't matter. Like, you, you can owner-occupy, you can potentially move to Kansas City for 6 months and try it out, see what you feel. So he, he was the one who was like really pushing my buttons into thinking about it differently and to thinking about a different reality that could be an option. And that's when we were like thinking about it. If we actually did that, imagine if we were to house hack a duplex, imagine how much growth exponentially we would have if we were living for free, if we're living in a cheaper city. I am still working remotely, so I can work remotely from Kansas City. So it— the idea slowly grew on us. It wasn't like we woke up one day and we were like, we're moving. Like, it was definitely a process. And ultimately what made the decision was we knew that if you— I kept telling this to Josh, I'm like, Think about where you were a year ago and how quickly did that time go by. If we move to Kansas City for one year, how quickly is that going to be? How much growth and how much— how are we going to be? Where are we going to be a year from now by us being there, by focusing on our real estate and really building our team, focusing on buying more properties and building the team and network so that then we can come back to Seattle. And live the life we want. But how much would change in that year if we just gave ourselves one year to really focus on real estate? And that's what made the decision. That's when we were like, you know what, this is delayed gratification. Let's do it. This is what's going to take us to the next level. Here we are a year later. And still in Kansas City. I love that.

I feel that whole thing like owner-occupied house hacking is— and WT, you guys have the magic, like That's it, right? Yeah.

I mean, house hacking was the right strategy to get us into the first property that we looked at. We bought it about a year and a half, like 13 or 14 months ago now. And we were there for about 6 months of that time. It basically ended up being too far from my office. It was a bit more of a commute than I think either of us realized it was going to be. So that was part of why we moved into the next property that we had been also owner occupied as well, which, yeah, that, that was, that was an adventure to, that's the house that Pipe is personally owning.

Yeah. A little raw at the moment.

It's very raw. Yeah. No, it's, it's okay. Definitely not something we were planning on dealing with right now, but that's part of the process. This is, I'm calling that house Real Estate University now because it's teaching many lessons and tuition's pretty expensive. So it's real estate university.

I love that you have to laugh, right? And there's always, there's an upside, right? Yeah. That's really funny. I've had water issues, nothing like that, but mystery leaks for, and I'm like, there's a leak. I don't, there's no roof is fine. Chimney. Yeah. No, it's right. There's always learnings and you, when you figure that out, you're like, okay, I can solve anything. So quickly, did you, was it so cold and that the pipes broke? Is that kind of, I don't know.

Yeah. Quick story short, we— there was a huge freeze in the Midwest right before Christmas. We were here for it, but we always spend the holidays with Josh's family on the East Coast. And we left the day before Christmas Eve thinking like, okay, the worst of it happened.

Through it.

We got through it because the weather was starting to warm up and no pipe had burst. And we were like, okay, we're good, let's go. Pretty much it broke the day after, or if not the day we had left, based on the water meter of when the water has been running. It was a pipe that was poorly insulated in the attic, and it's on the— so it's in the second floor bathroom. So the pipe burst, water— we had 100,000 gallons running.

About 100,000 gallons went through the house.

10 days of water.

And with the whole time it broke, and it was just pouring while you were—

because we weren't out here.

Yeah, it's rough. We, and like the whole time I had been going through the house being like, okay, we've checked everything. We're good.

You guys know what to look for. You're not the average.

Like we thought we, we thought we, we, we had put wrap around some of the, the, the connections that we thought were maybe the weak points and we thought that we were in a good position to leave. We were actually supposed to leave at the— before the big freeze happened. Like these, it was like -25 degrees in Kansas City. It was so cold. And we changed our flights and left like a few days later just to be like, let's make sure everything is going okay at the house before we leave. Because this is really the first time we bought this house in June or May.

Oh, so is your season in it? Yeah.

First winter.

Yeah.

Never been in it when it was cold. So we're like, let's see what happens. Let's be here in case something happens. We leave and then something happens. It's just no matter we tried to be—

you were so prepared and you thought it's not like you didn't realize. So what if you had left the heat on or was it really just a— it wouldn't have been so cold.

We even didn't turn the heat up. No, honestly, and this is like Josh said, there's so many lessons and I think it's a big part of the mindset piece. If you want financial independence without stress, don't do real estate. It's a constant learning. Even for us, we're architects, we have construction management degrees, we do this for a living, and we're still constantly learning, constantly learning of different ways to do things, battling with like old beliefs that we had about situations that we learned through the process where like different ways of solving issues Yeah, yeah. Like you mentioned, it's really a mental peace and a mindset part of just laugh about it. What can we learn from this? How can we prevent this from happening in the future? We've been trying to be very honest and transparent about everything that has happened through Instagram, trying to help others so that this never happens again. It doesn't happen to anyone. We think what happened— and again, like, now we know we were never going to do this before. Again, it's a bathroom that we never use because in the second bathroom, in the second floor, that whole area we were, we had plans to in the future renovate it. So we don't use that bathroom based on our plumber. The pipe was probably frozen while we were there and we, because we don't use the bathroom, we never noticed. And then it warmed up and the water started coming out.

We had actually shut off like some of the water to that bathroom. We We're there, there's a whole host of things we could get into about that, but I think the most important thing here from the mindset piece and getting back on focus here, education is great and it really does help. 'Cause obviously we both have a lot of education in this, but experience is a whole nother thing and is a very important component to this process. It's so, it cannot be understated that education and experience need to go hand in hand. And if you don't know something, you'll learn something and you'll figure out where the gaps are in your knowledge. And part of the beauty of experience is that it's an education that is more collective. You'll learn what other people know. You'll see how other people react to things. You'll see the things that people are picking up on, or it's a collaborative experience. So it's very helpful. To pair, because education is a solo thing. It's what you take into your own mind, but when it becomes experience, it's shared between many people that you interact with. It's also a good way to learn who are the people that need to be part of your synergy and part of your team. So we're still, we're, we're, that's why it's Real Estate University now.

I see a documentary on this. Yeah, I think that's so true. I, yeah, you, and when the end you're gonna look back and it's a great story, like back, but you have to just see it as a learning because otherwise you just would ugly cry and just say, I've had people say I had a rental and there were mice and I, oh my God, I just sold it. Okay. Like, it's like, it, it really, it, this is not what's, it's not, it's easy, but it's really hard. And I think there are so many like misconceptions. So I love that you guys are being so transparent about it and sharing that. And because I think there's just, oh, you've got 5 doors and you're just, you're so successful. You guys have all this experience. But to your point, that education versus experience, or the hands-on— and you guys of all people are so highly educated, and I love that you're just reinforcing that kind of experience and that kind of— yeah, it builds character, right?

100%.

It's so important not to beat yourself up for a mistake you make. Don't be afraid of the failures. Yeah, we thinking that a lot is that failure is just another way of figuring out how to succeed.

Yeah.

And so that's a really important, I think, mindset piece again is that failure is not, unless you quit and you're done.

Mm-hmm.

But it's just gonna help you make better decisions and be more successful in the future.

Yeah. And I would just add one last thing. I think to us too, like overnight success does not happen overnight. It takes years to get there. I think. And as human beings, we're constantly evolving. Once you hit your next target, you're gonna have another one. Unless, like Josh said, unless you really just stop and you give up, you're always gonna keep learning and growing and your goal is gonna keep increasing. So you might as well just enjoy the process. Like you're gonna fail, you're gonna, you're gonna succeed, probably fail more than you succeed. So just have fun with it and learn from it and have a good attitude because is it's probably going to happen more often than the times you succeed. And it's just part of that success. And it's just every day you're being shown the way. You try something, doesn't work. Now I know that it doesn't work. Pivot. And I think that's something that this whole year has been a huge learning experience from us. Even being architects, even being construction managers, it's a constant learning and growing. And like Josh mentioned, learning from other people even in their experiences and making yourself better and aligning with your paths.

Yeah, I just thinking about that experience makes you more valuable in ways that education can't even touch. Obviously, again, education is really important. It puts the foot in the door. But just as you're saying that, I'm just like, wow, a year ago, like what we knew then versus what we know now, it's just, it's so insanely rapid the amount of education you give yourself by trying, by, by just putting your boots on the ground and by gaining that experience. That might be, to come full circle, a big reason why being boots on the ground is so valuable, why being an investor in your community, in your community is so helpful.

So that's, We're connecting all the dots now, but yeah, no, I, and I think there's so many reasons. It's your team. It's, you understand the nuances and yeah, yeah, no, I think it's really important. You guys, I think it's rare that you're actually, you took that big move. No, I love that really, that experience thing because you always figure it out and it makes a great story and you have this, like when you figure that thing out that felt like impossible, it's like you feel like a superhero, right? You're like, Oh my God.

Yeah.

Found the right person, you hustle. I don't know, there's this sense of, I don't know, maybe it's just me, like when I have this and I can figure out a problem out, I'm like, it's very satisfying, even though I feel like I'm going to die before I figure it out.

100%.

Yeah.

It's a roller coaster.

Completely. Completely. I want to dive into design a little bit and also your strategies. Like I know you've done midterm, long-term, short-term, like how you approach that when you're underwriting a property. And then I just, I, you guys are designers and I think that is a big factor in kind of ARV or whatever you want to say, the experience. And I love that you're, when even in your bio you said that you want to create beautiful houses because I feel very strongly about landlords get a very bad rap, but we're not evil and we provide, if you provide, we can provide housing and that's important. So I'll let you guys take it from there.

100%. Yeah. We've dabbled into everything really. We've done, we have long terms, midterms, short terms. Midterms. I'm not gonna lie, midterms and short terms really scared us at the beginning. And I think that's a big, again, just preconceptions that people, or like we had, and everyone just has. That just takes having, being surrounded by the right people to show you the way. We really thought we would be like boring long-term tenants type of investors, and we've been very lucky to, with the people that we have met through the community that have shown us the way. So right now we have one, the duplex mentioned that we house hacked. We've had one long-term tenant that has been there for 4 or 5 years. And I do want to point something that you just mentioned, like landlords have such a bad rep and I understand why. And that is not what we want to do. Like, it is incredible when we, when we got to this property that we house hacked, we met our neighbor. She had been there for 4 or 5 years. It is crazy, like some of the living conditions that she was just putting up with. And that she kept asking for, like, to the previous landlord, like, hey, my screens are broken. I can't even open my windows. Because for anyone that is aware of the weather in Kansas City, the summer comes, there are bugs everywhere. You can't open a window without getting your house infested and stuff like that. It was just like, I'm like, God, I don't get into this profession. Don't get into this just for the money part. Like, you are providing housing to someone that cannot afford to buy a house. Take that responsibility and make it the best it can be. Give someone decent home that you would want to have. And it's been incredible in the last year, like the relationship we have built with her. And she has started to take ownership over the house, which we love as landlords, because then like she loves it. Yeah, she treats her own. She wants to take care of it because she sees that we are also taking care of it like we did a big renovation. We painted the whole house, like we've added screens, like in our side of the unit. That was our first DIY project. We're like, when we were not working in our projects, like in our work, we were working in the renovation of this house to turn it into a midterm rental. So we've put a lot of energy into it and she sees that we're taking care of it, so she wants to take care of it. And it's been— it's worked out great because now we have one side long-term, one side midterm. Term, and she has become the eyes on the property too. We're like, I can text her at any time and just even check on my own. We hired a new landscaper. Hey, did they cut the grass? Like, how do you like it? I have a good relationship with her that I know that she will be like, mm, they haven't shown up in a month. And then I'm going to be like, okay, no one has been there. We love that aspect and we love that that she has— she knows she's being taken care of, and she has become the eyes of the property for when we're not there. Because again, our goal is still to move back to Seattle, so we're building everything we can do for us to head back and know that our properties are going to be well taken care of.

Yeah, and having happy tenants, it really does make the process of being a landlord that much easier. Yeah, because it goes both ways. When there are problems and the landlord isn't attentive or doesn't treat the problem the right way, it's just more problems down the line. You're just kicking the problem down the road. You get a lot more slack with people, a lot more compassion and understanding when you're taking care of them. When they feel like they're being heard. And I think that's a big part of being on the other side of this process, being a renter and trying to erase this preconceived notion that all landlords are somehow evil. This is not— yeah, it's not poor. If it's not poorly intentioned, then it's really a great relationship to have and they become part of the team almost. It's interesting to see how she has taken ownership over it. And when we can't get to something right away, she says, no rush. I know you guys are really doing a lot to help. I really appreciate everything you're doing. Like she was used to dealing with a property management team that wasn't good, that the fixes that they would do to the house weren't the right things. And we knew that. We saw that on the side of the property we were living on. And that's why they're no longer the property management team that we use. We have her come directly to us and the team that we're growing. And that's really, I think that's given her security in her own home too. And that's important.

Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of the design, going back to your question, I think one of the things we've loved the most about it, I think there's so many people that are intimidated by design and rightly so. If you've never, not only have you never bought a property before, but now you also have to rehab it and choose finishes and make sure that it matches. And like your tenants are going to like, especially if you're doing something like a midterm short-term rental. I like, that doesn't come naturally to every person. And we totally understand that. And part of the things that we're excited about is to help the community bridge that gap of showing them it's not scared. It's not scary. There's a lot. There's a lot of help that you can like, don't let that be the reason why you don't purchase a property. Don't let that be reason why, oh, I don't do midterm rentals, back to the preconceived notions. I don't do midterm rentals or short-term rentals because too much work. I'm not a designy person. I don't know what I'm doing. It's going to be a hassle. There's always a way to make it work. And sometimes you just need the right team. So something that we're actually starting on is we're going to— we're creating a studio consultation specifically for real estate investors that can come to us, hey, I have this property, I need to rehab it, help me. And the beauty of it is that it's surprising. You would think that in an area like real estate investing, you would see a lot more architects. We're just not though, right?

I've never met an architect. Now I'm thinking at an event. No, I didn't either. Yeah, no.

Things while we were at BPCon. On earlier this year, uh, everyone was like, you're an architect? Like, what are you doing here?

But it makes so much sense.

Of course, you're like so well— you understand structure and flow and yeah, that's, yeah, that's really interesting.

It's, it's amazed. It has amazed us from the beginning of like, why aren't more architects? Like, we're on the back end like telling all of our architect friends, hey, buy a home, do this, do it. So one thing that we want to do is like show people that it's not that scary and that also like everything that you have said with your investor-friendly agent, your investor-friendly mortgage person, I think your design team should be also an investor-friendly design team. It's not the same to hire your architect, hey, I'm renovating this duplex, architect, can you please design it for me, versus hey, investor-friendly architect, can you design this for me? Because what we are trying to provide is And something that we've done for our own properties is there's been— we renovated a kitchen and a bathroom and just different areas, even of our own personal home that we were going to do. Now it's a total gut, but we were not planning on doing that because there's so many ways to add value to a property without killing your budget, without having to completely take cabinets out and redo the whole layout. Like, there is a design that can be catered to every situation and for every property in every market that we hope to bring that value to others of, hey, let's look at your property. What's your budget? Okay, let's look at the comps. You actually don't need to redo your kitchen. Who's telling you? And I've had conversations with people where, like, I'm helping them analyze their deal and they're immediately like, oh, we need to renovate the entire kitchen. It's going to cost $15K. And I'm like, why do you think you need to renovate your kitchen? Who's telling you you need to renovate your kitchen? Because when you look at your comps and the price that you're buying this property for, you actually should not renovate your kitchen. There is not enough lag in there for you to spend $15K in that kitchen. You're not going to get that money back. So how about I— we can help you redesign and with very strategic design moves, bring it back to life without spending $15K in a new kitchen.

To add to that really quickly, for our duplex, we did it. We fixed up the kitchen, we fixed up one of the bathrooms, we redid the floor in the basement, and we turned what we thought when we ran our initial numbers, we thought we could get about, I think it was like $1,200 a month for the house that we were living in once we were moving out of it long term. We were like, we don't know if the midterm options are going to work here, but why not give it a shot? We were bare bones, very budget focused, but we were like, how can we make some nice changes here? What can we do to the paint? What can we do to the textures? Everything along those lines, couple new appliances. And we ended up, we've had our duplex 100% occupied. We continue to get hits for it and it's for more than double what it would be making at the long term. So it has skyrocketed the return on investment.

Yeah, we made— I think we made on average, we rented between $2,500 and $3,000 a month and that was a property that we were going to rent for $1,200.

That's game changing, right? Yeah, that's—

and I think we spent— we ran the numbers on Instagram. I forget the exact numbers, but I think it's something something close to $5,000, and that includes like new appliances, uh, that we spent in like new bathroom, new flooring, painting the exterior.

We did a lot of that work ourselves, I'm assuming, and I fully expect if a contractor was in there doing it, we wouldn't have been able to do it for that. Yeah, but yeah, put your cash on that.

I mean, yeah, made up our money back in 2 months. So, and we did not— this is a 1980s house, like old kitchen cabinets. We literally put shiplap. We painted them, new hardware. Right.

It's like the new hardware, new lights. I love going to a place and being like, yeah, little things, huge difference.

And literally for no money. And I'm sure a lot of people would walk in and be like, new kitchen, $15K. You're never going to make that money back. It's going to take a year to make that money back.

Yeah.

And that is, that's the power of good design and of Using design very strategically in our case, having knowledge of how we can construct it, what kind of details we can afford to put in, what things we can't. We definitely had a lot of discussions about where do we want to spend the money? What is the primary focus?

Yeah.

How do we get the most out of what we're doing? And that's, we did that for our property. That's something that we want to, that's our next step is to bring that to other investors because I do think that there is a huge role that design can play that is something we are aware of. And I think that you understand and appreciate and respect the power of good design. And that's a space that a lot of people who are real estate investors, I think, are intimidated by. So, yeah.

Amen. Drop the mic. Like, I mean, you're speaking my language right now, so I just want to say thank you. I love that.

That's your language. That's great.

Yeah, my love language or something. My husband's also a creative and we're like, we nerd out and we— No, but I think, and it's just not talked about, right? It's no one talks about what you can do like with lighting and like maybe painting or even like my little win was like, hey, putting a micro hood that matches the other appliances just ties it together in a way that I never would have thought. And my appliance guy is like, why do you have crappy stainless steel, like, fan over here. And I'm like, I didn't know what a micro hood was.

And honestly, like, even— and I know this comes from, like, a designer talking, like, we often see things of, like, people that they do to their property that, like, hurt our soul in every possible way. Because we're like, why would you do that? And I think people resort to cheap materials like peel and stick and like just like cheap ways to make it look good in photos. But like you're really not actually adding value to your property because if you brought an appraisal in, they're immediately going to catch all of that. So you really just spent money for a good photo, but the second you look at it, like you didn't add value to your property. So just do it right the first time and it doesn't have to be for a huge amount of money, but there's better ways that, like, but being very thoughtful. And Josh said, like, where do we spend the money and where do we dial back that will actually make the biggest impact, will actually increase the value of your property, increase your rent without killing your budget. So that's where we hope to take, uh, to start adding a lot of value to the community, specifically, like, We don't want to do another— we're architects. We're not trying to start an architecture firm or anything like it. No, definitely not.

What a liability in that.

No, and it's not something that we're interested in at all. But we see this aspect that's missing in the community in that investors that feel scared about doing it, then they hire their contractor. Now they're putting all their effort, all their thought. Okay, contractor, you figure it out. Guess what? The contractor is going to love your $15K kitchen. Because he's making the money. Is that the best return for your investment? Is that what you should be doing? He's not going to tell you no.

And a lot of times I think people end up that aren't familiar with construction, the process, working with contractors, doing design, they end up cutting costs in the wrong places. And what that ends up doing is that's the same thing as we were talking about before, just kicking the can down the road. When you're not making the right decisions about where the money goes, you might be getting something that needs to be replaced 3 years sooner, 5 years sooner, and then all of a sudden it's more money that needs to be put into something and it, it lowers the appeal for, for your potential tenants and it's outdated sooner. Things like that. Being careful about the materials and, and all of the quality of those things that you put in and how they get constructed are all more important than I think most people would, would typically be able to acknowledge.

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And I think if you are a creative, you assume that it's just, I like midterms. I almost like, I want an ex— my last one, I just wanted a project. I was just like, I just want to furnish something. But no, I think, and I think it's a little intimidating though, especially architects. I think you have, even I have this idea that they're, it's really expensive and, but when you, and it's hard to, put that in like a line item. And, but if you analyze it as a midterm, but I, I love that you guys are really emphasizing that and I really believe that. I think it attracts better tenants. You, you make more cash flow and you're providing a better experience. And that's, I think that's just really important. So I love that you guys are starting that. Cause I think it's a real need and it's not really talked about a lot. It's all about independence, financial freedom, which is, we all want that. But I think creating experiences and doing the right thing is is important and maybe making that accessible.

Yeah, yeah.

And at the end, these are investments. Make your money go the farthest. If you put a peel and stick in a property that you're planning to do midterms or even short terms, like, how many people are going to be using that? Like, those materials are going to deteriorate much quicker. You're going to have to renovate again much quicker than if you had just done it right the first time. So yeah, we just hope to bring value and to help others losing the fear on design or immediately just walking blindly thinking like, this is what I have to do. Like, we are not even doing it for— there are so many misconceptions about architects that we hope we can break that as well of like the investment you will get from having someone help you and someone be on your side to give you the right advice for your investment. It's worth every penny that you could spend. Because that's only going to help your investment go farther.

And I think because you walk into it, if it's a flip, you walk in and you just get— it's a vibe, right? You maybe couldn't put your finger on what, but it's like something's off. Like the room is awkward. Or if you took that wall down and I— if you don't have that training or that you don't know that, I like— it's, it's also intimidating, right? But I bet you can find things that you can do that are really just change the whole space with. Yeah, no, I love that. So I have to ask, like, I am— I love— I've had a couple of short terms. I love midterms. How did you guys you guys find— and then we can wrap up. I know we're going over. How did you guys find that strategy? And clearly you're— it's working really well for you guys.

The midterm? Yeah, 100%. Sarah Weaver.

Awesome.

I, I became friends with Sarah Weaver again, back to the original story of when we got started, 2021. We were going through all the hardships, but I was being very active with like social media and connecting to people and trying to learn. Sarah Weaver was one of the first people that I met through Instagram. We bought our first property, and I feel very fortunate and lucky that she invited me to her first retreat, Gold Center Retreat, that happened almost to the date a year ago. And again, I walked into this retreat with amazing investors from all over the country. I would say Josh was not able to join me on this one because of just other stuff that was happening. But I definitely felt like, okay, I am the smallest person in this room. I have just purchased my first investment. I am here with people that are just at a completely different level. But— and that has never scared me like that. I am very comfortable being uncomfortable and I take that situation and let's learn from everyone. And to this date, Those are some of my closest friends that I've made in real estate. I actually, we were supposed to fly yesterday to Guatemala to meet with all of them, but a lot of things happening in our life right now with the pipe freeze and everything that we had to cancel the trip. But it was definitely something that we were, we kept hearing short-term rentals and midterm rentals and I was completely intimidated. I was like, I don't, it seems like a hassle. It seems like too much work. I just, I'm just trying to get my toes wet right now. That just seems like plunging into the pool right now and I'm not there. And it was really talking through other people that were like, wait, no, there's systems and there are processes and there's ways that you can automate it. And that was really our first introduction to midterm rentals. And we were at the time about to start house hacking this duplex. And that's when we were like, okay, we just moved from Seattle to Kansas City. We have all of our belongings. How about we stage the house, take photographs and just test it out?

Yeah, right.

Yes, it works. And we actually have given that advice to other people and it has worked. Even people that are like, oh, I have this property, I don't think it will work as a midterm rental. I don't want to spend $15K in furniture. I'm like, post the photos.

Honestly, unfurnished, virtually furnished. That's what I do. Virtually furnish it.

And then you just—

I run A/B tests, unfurnished, furnished. Who's going to win?

Exactly. And just say, I like this property, it's becoming available, X date, and it will be furnished and see if there's even— and 100%, it works every single time. Just try it out.

And that's what we did.

We furnished, we staged our property. And it was funny because like we were living in it, so it was like, yeah, what have I done that?

Right.

Well, it was definitely chaotic. And then within 2 days we had someone asking to stay for 3 months and we were like, oh my God.

Oh my God.

Oh no.

Works. So it was definitely trial and error. And I think, like we've said, just taking action and just doing it, and it worked. And, and honestly, we love the strategy even more so than short-term rental. We have another one we're having right now, um, that we are going to do as a short-term rental. We are hiring a property manager that focuses on short-term rentals, mostly for peace of mind, um, Midterm rentals and long-term rentals are really easy to manage, and we're actually growing in that space. We have a bunch of properties that, knock on wood, we're going to hopefully close on soon. But we want to continue doing the midterm long-term strategy. I think for our risk level, I love to have a guaranteed payment that, like, okay, mortgage is covered, or at least a port— like, if COVID 2.0 hits, the world stops, right?

Yeah.

I end up a month with a $10,000 mortgage because like I have no renters. Like, we're not there yet to be able to say, oh yeah, I'll pay that off. Like, we can't. So like having a long-term rental there definitely eases a lot of headaches and helps us sleep well at night. And then doubling on the midterm rental for that higher cash flow. And knowing that we can always push the limits and take them into short-term rental.

It's not to cut you off.

No, go ahead.

It's, you know, we have a mixture of these things. It's a lot of— it's like any other investment strategy. Diversifying is the best thing you can do to avoid unnecessary risk. And so we have a combination of things and doing the long-term kind of having enough long-term tenants allows us to do a couple midterms, allows us to do a couple short terms so that we're getting a variety of options and a variety of different ways of bringing cash flow in. So we're setting ourself up to have a mixture of all of the three. Right now, which is saying the, the short term that we're working on is with, with some partners of ours. We're providing the design. We're doing a lot of the things that we've been saying about about we're going to bring this property up. What are the areas that we can really make this just amazing? What are the things that are going to appeal to people? And we're being strategic about how we're spending our dollars as a result of that, going back to what we were saying previously. But that's going to be managed by a separate company so that we can then continue to focus and grow in the short— or I'm sorry, in the middle term and the long-term components. To make sure that we're not expanding too hastily.

Yeah, no, I actually did a course on midterms because people, I put it out there and everyone asks you questions. I'm like, guys, it's not that hard. Here's how you do it. Like I downloaded my brain, but I love the fact that diversification and you have that stability. I, I think the sweet spot is like house hack a duplex, move out long-term midterm, and then you're really managed. Like it's all calculated. It a risk. But then if you have a little vacancy and because we take a lot of risks and but it's calculated.

Yeah, we have a lot of goals that we're trying to achieve, like the design consultation, like we're also like speaking to developers and we want to start developing our own projects. So there's so much that requires like you only have 24 hours in one day. I want to sleep at night and I want during my work, like the hours that I'm awake, maximize my next steps in like our next goals of where we're going, not be sidetracked or like always pulling back, oh, this property, or like, I need to manage this one. We want to focus our attention on what's going to get us to our ultimate goal. And we've found that this balance really has helped us move forward and remain balanced and safe for our risk.

Yeah. So do you underwrite all options like ABC or— I know it depends on location. I feel if you're in this prime location, STR. The regular— the other thing is the regulations. I love that you don't have to worry about regulations.

I know, that's such a huge risk.

Definitely for Kansas City. Definitely, if we were in a city like Phoenix, I think we would be underwriting very differently. Kansas City, we underwrite everything as a long-term rental. Um, it has to work as the long-term rental because that is our worst-case scenario. And like I said, we are— and that's just our risk level. There's properties that we don't put offers because they don't work at the long-term rental. And then we see people put like overbidding offers and we're like, okay, like, that's your risk level. Like, yeah, but as we know that we know where our limits are and what we can handle. So we definitely want to make sure what if the world collapses, worst case scenario, can this property at least pay for itself? And obviously, we're not expecting like the same like ROI or cash on a long-term rental. Like, it doesn't have to be the most amazing deal, but it has to at least cover itself. If I— if we know, okay, this is prime location, we know that it's almost a given mid-term rentals are going to work. But worst case scenario, the property still covers for itself. We will probably still put an offer on that.

Yeah.

If the deal comes negative, if we were to go long-term rental, for our level of, like, our level of risk, we don't, at least right now where we are in the process and in our development as real estate investors, we're not there to take that risk. So for those properties, we say no. But yes, we run them all, like you said, multiple scenarios. We want to understand worst case scenario, most likely scenario, and best case scenario. And based on that, then start to pull levers of, okay, but if I want that, then does that mean I need to invest another $5K into renovations. If we don't do that, then okay, we don't save those. We save those $5K, but we probably can estimate this is going to be the return. And like you said, I think to me the most exciting part about real estate investing was this is all a calculated risk. Like, back to me when we were like trying to figure out, like, we were living for free, we were saving all this money. And Josh has a finance degree. He invests in stocks and everything, and I knew nothing. I was like, Josh, help. And I remember he was like, yeah, look at these, look at these stocks, or like maybe try bonds and all these things. And I started reading all these books because that's just— I'm a total nerd and needed to fully understand the whole picture. And that to me seemed so risky. I'm like, I'm putting my money like on someone else's good faith that their property, their company is going to succeed and that tomorrow they're not going to— some weird news is not going to come out about them that I had nothing to do. And I was like, this is not for me. Like real estate, like every aspect of it is controllable. You know how much money you're going to get back. Back before you even purchase the property.

And you have levers, right? You can adjust your rent, you can furnish that, you can just like, you know, pull things.

There's a lot of creativity.

Yeah.

That you can bring to it. It's not just, here's a share, I'm buying that share. And that's, it's not, that's, it's so transactional, you know, asset classes. But with real estate, it's how do we finance the deal? What type of person are we looking to have in it? How long do we want them to stay? What area is it in? What's happening in the area? There's so many different factors. Yeah, there's still components of it that are out of your control, but there's a lot more that is in your control than in any other sort of investment class.

Yeah, no, the fact that you can pivot, I think a lot of people when COVID hit, a lot of people went midterm and it was just like this. And now I wouldn't go back because mine were not in destination areas, but I was like, yeah, I had that lever to pull and yeah, no, I, it did. I like that transactional. That's interesting. It's true, right? It's just buying it and you can't really affect it like real estate. All right, you guys, I think we could talk for another hour. This has been so fun. I can't wait to keep up with you guys. And I have a couple of wrap-up questions. I'll let you guys choose who takes it. I think you guys were full of advice, but like top business or life advice. You've already gave so much, but if you have any cherry on top, I guess.

You go ahead.

I think like what we've talked about, I think taking action, don't be scared of failure. I think that prevents people from even taking the first step. Just, I think, accept that failure is part of the process and enjoy the process and take action. You don't have to— I listen to a lot of like goal-setting books and podcasts and everything, and I think the lesson I've learned the most is for you to create a goal today, you don't need to know how to get there today. You just need to believe that you can become the person that achieves that, but you're obviously, you don't know how because you're not that person yet. So believe that the process will show the how and you will become the person that achieves those goals. So yeah, I think not being scared of failure and taking action would be like our biggest advice.

Okay.

Yeah. It's that experience. It just really helps.

Yeah, and you guys are living proof. That's awesome. Okay, next question. Josh, I'll let you take this one and then Diana, I'd love to hear yours. What's your superpower?

I would say my— I'm gonna say Diana's superpower. You can say mine. I think that's more fun.

Love it. Perfect.

Diana's superpower is certainly discipline and organization. She just takes such an analytical approach to being creative and is so good about mixing the left brain and the right brain and is good about staying focused on what needs to be done and being able to prioritize what has to happen next. So she's good at figuring out how to get from point A to point B and not necessarily without knowing how to get there. She's able to sort through some of the noise and get to what really matters. And I think that's her superpower.

I love it.

I would say Josh's superpower is relationship building and just networking. Josh will become best friends with whoever he meets. I think he has a huge talent and it comes so naturally to just really care about people and ask about them, like really an interest about getting to learn about other people that creates this immense connection. I think a lot of people just immediately want to talk about themselves, and Josh always wants the other person— he, and he genuinely wants to learn about the other person, and that creates a huge connection with everyone he meets because he listens and he connects with those people. I think that is his biggest superpower that It helps us, but it also, it's one of the things I love the most about him.

You guys are very well matched. I love it. I think this will be an easy one for you, Dionne, maybe like a book or a resource or a podcast. I'm also like this. I love learning stuff, so I don't know if you can choose one, but a couple maybe that you'd recommend.

That was really, we were talking about this one this morning. This is a really hard one because I think I've read like 30 books last year. I love reading. I listening to podcasts and everything. I think podcast-wise right now I'm obsessed with Alex Hormozi. I think anything Alex Hormozi, his book is amazing. If you haven't read it, it's about business creation. It's called 100 Million Offer. And his podcast about the game, it's called The Game, is just amazing. Just, I feel like I have a coach in my head of like how to think about life, how to a situation. And he's very business related and like with his gyms and everything, but it's so applicable to anything you're doing. And I think for bulk, I would say the gap in the gain has probably been one of my favorite ones just because again, like, this is such a challenging profession that you can constantly put yourself down if you want to and be like, oh, another error, another mistake. Now my house blow— blew up and I didn't get that property. And it's just like down on yourself versus, hey, stop and look backwards. Where were you a year ago? And see how much you've learned in the last year and how today you can handle the problems you're given today because of the person you've been becoming. And so that's a constant trigger for us that it's so easy when we get down and we immediately call each other, we're in the gap. Okay. Like rewire brain. Got to be in the gain right now.

Yeah.

Um, so that one would be one of my favorite books that I read.

I would agree with that. This will be real quick, but I think in a, a bit, a very important part of the gap and the gain is that you're measuring yourself against your previous self and not against others. Because it's really, when you see what other people are doing, social media's full of that sort of behavior.

Mm-hmm.

It's really tough to feel good if you're comparing yourself to where other people are or what they're doing. And I think it's really good to know that like when you compare yourself to your previous self, you can see the improvement. And if you can build on that improvement on a daily basis, You can do amazing things. And so it's really good. That's living in the gain rather than the gap. And so that's an important part. Something that I, I've definitely taken to heart since reading the book too.

I, I love that. Cause I feel like the goal's always moving, so you're never quite there and you're always like, why haven't I done that? You don't, but if you look back, you're like, yeah, no, that's, I love that. Yeah. Okay. I'm definitely putting that on my list.

Okay.

Last thing. This has been awesome, you guys. How can people like reach out to you, work with you? Online or whatnot? What's the best way to get in touch?

Yeah, let's say we're the most active on Instagram. Our handle is @D.I.FI, which stands for Design Invest Financial Independence. So yeah, reach out to us through there. We're very active, always wanting to connect with new people, just talk about everything, real estate, helping others, and just connecting with people with similar Makes sense.

Yep.

Awesome. This has been— I don't want to say my favorite, but it's been really fun. Love it. Love it.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you so much, Shauna.

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