Alex Cooper: What Nobody Knows About Call Her Daddy and my $100M+ Media Empire

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The energy was so fucking good.

There's a huge part of you that people don't see.

Call Her Daddy has always been the main thing that I've led with. They think it's all Call Her Daddy and no business.

I want to go to the super famous $60 million, $125 million deals. What was the most stressful moment?

No one teaches you this shit. It is hard to go from the Call Her Daddy girl to also a CEO and a founder. So I've walked away from like millions of dollars. Oh my God, the worst mistake I made.

Alex Cooper, welcome to The Burnout.

Thank you for having me, guys.

This is obviously extremely full circle for us because we've learned so much from you. So we wanted to use this as an opportunity to have you talk about business, Unwell, Call Her Daddy, all of it. And also, of course, your relationship with Matt.

Oh my God. And Matt. Um, no, I love it. I was just saying before we started recording, like, I'm so proud of you guys and it's so funny to think back to when we first met to then our episode of Call Her Daddy and you launching and you being sleep deprived and just launching Thea and also doing the episode of Call Her Daddy and all happening in like 24 hours of each other. It was such a rush to be a part of it with you guys and I'm just so happy and you guys have had such success and. I love knowing you guys.

We're honored because you took a bet on us. I mean, so early on, before you had like fully founded Unwell and stuff, was when we pitched you and you said we should do a podcast about starting the business, which has become so core to everything we've done. I mean, it's in every investor deck, it's become our entire community that we've created. But I also want to use this to get into— because I feel like there's a huge part of you that people don't see on Call Her Daddy, which is you're a business mastermind and you've, you've done $60 million deals, $125 million deals. You're running this entire business with Unwell. You guys now have like, you know, you have the drink, you have an investing arm, like you're founding all of these and acquiring all of these new podcasts and stuff. So I'm excited to get into the business side of your stuff as well.

Oh my God. I know. I feel like it's something that I don't talk about as often because publicly, obviously Call Her Daddy has always been the main thing that I've led with. So that's been kind of who I've been known as, which I love. And I've been a host and a producer, but I think once Unwell launched, it was almost like I I needed to build it first to be able to really understand like how I would want to publicly speak about it because it is hard to be a woman who is multidimensional and to go from the Call Her Daddy girl to also a CEO and a founder, which I recognize is kind of a weird thing to publicly say cuz I don't think people think that at all. They think it's all Call Her Daddy and no probably business.

But that's what I feel like people want to know. I know I wanna know like as a founder, as a CEO, what does a day in your life look like? Like how do you balance all of this?

It's every single day is very different. And I think about when Unwell started, it was so different than what it is today. But when it started really at its core, it was just this little media company where Matt and I were merging our companies, which I can get more into. Um, but now on a day-to-day, it's like there are some days where I am in a full edit with our unscripted reality department division. We have multiple reality shows out right now. We have one with Hulu, we have one with Netflix. And so we are producing these shows and so we are in the pre, uh,, um, production of casting and choosing who's going to be on these shows and location and scouting. Like, I'm a part of all of that, then to the shoot and then to the post-production. So my whole day could be a post-production process on our unscripted and then going into an acquisition meeting where we're talking about— in the beginning with Unwell, we were launching shows that we were believing in people, and we still are doing that, but now we're also looking to start leaning into our acquisition model, which would be to acquire shows that already exist that have large platforms. Um, and so all of these things are really what my day-to-day is like. Um, and then I go and once a week I do my Call Her Daddy interview. So it's like, it's kind of crazy, but I love it so much. And if anything, it's made me actually love Call Her Daddy more cuz it's almost like that's like the candy of the week. Like that's my favorite thing to do. I get to pop in, I get to do my interviews, but the behind the scenes is chaos at all times. And also dealing with employees and hiring and all of that.

Wait, I was gonna say, cuz are Are you in the office 5 days a week?

Yes.

Like what does that look like?

So most of the time if I have an interview for Call Her Daddy, our main office for Unwell, um, is where everybody works. That's not where Call Her Daddy is. Call Her Daddy's like 15 minutes away. So if I usually have an interview, I will stay work from home and prep my interview all morning and then go to the Call Her Daddy studio, do the interview, and then I'll come to the office after. But every other day I'm in the office at my desk. Taking meetings.

That's crazy. I, I want to see an Alex Cooper day in the life of you at the office.

It is kind of crazy because Matt and I have offices right next to each other and we are constantly in each other's offices, or we don't see each other at all during that day. Like, it's very case dependent on what those meetings are, because I think Matt and I have really, um, we are very good at delegating between like what he's really good at and strong at when it comes to business and what I'm very good at. And so I think we've both kind of been able to run with different parts of the business, but they all do kind of coincide together at some point. But we each take leads on things, if that makes sense.

That makes a ton of sense. And can you walk us back into like, how does Unwell make money?

Like, what is it—

is the divide between, you know, ad sales, brand deals you're doing on the personal side? I'd love to understand that a little bit more.

Yes.

So let me go back to the beginning of Unwell. So when it really all started, when Matt and I were dating and he had a film and television company and he had output deals with Netflix and Lionsgate, and he was making film and television. Great, my dream. I went to school for film and TV. I was like, I wanted to be a director one day. So I was always fascinated in his side of the business. And then I had the podcast. As we continued to date, Matt was looking to potentially sell his company. Someone had come to him and been interested in buying his company. Throughout that process, he realized that there was such a turn happening in media where it would be more advantageous to hold on to it and to grow it and grow different verticals, because essentially media companies now are so different than what they used to be. Um, these conglomerates that were more traditional media companies that you had to have a huge name like a Disney next to you. Now you are able to kind of bootstrap it and do it yourselves, and then you can sell it for even more. So Matt was like, wow, like they were talking about, you know, they wanna acquire event, um, companies and they wanna acquire podcast companies. And he's like, I'm sitting there and I'm like, I could just do all that myself. And then we're looking at each other and we're like, we could do all of that ourselves. Like, why aren't we doing this? So we put Unwell together, which is basically our film and television department and Matt's entire finance and production backend. And then also my podcast knowledge of wanting to launch a podcast network. And that's kind of where it started. So majority of where we were initially making money was on the podcast side. As we signed podcasters, we have a rev split with our podcasters and we make money off of AdSense. Call Her Daddy is kind of like the mothership where we have my initial like huge deal that I get every 3 to 4 years. And that is mostly on AdSense. Yes. Um, but it's so crazy cuz even when I signed my deal with SiriusXM, let's say VHRs didn't even exist, which are video host read ads. And I say that because it's like the funniest, most random thing that came about where before I would read it on a microphone and you wouldn't see my face reading ads. And now the CPM has gone, has skyrocketed because when you see my face reading an ad compared to just my voice, it's worth like 10 times more. And so that wasn't even in my initial contract with SiriusXM, and so we we had to like go back to the drawing board because now we have all these integrations that are literally 10 times more money. And so it's— that already has changed the game in terms of, um, what we have gotten back in terms of what the initial deal was and what they wanted us to make each year. And the first year we had exceeded everything, and it was like so shocking. And VHRs were a huge part of that business. Um, so that was exciting. And then on top of that, the output deals that we have with the Netflixes, um, the Lionsgates of the world, we're also making money through film and television. As we have expanded though, we have our live events business, which has been so lucrative for us because we are bringing thousands of women. Like for example, Las Vegas, we had almost 5,000 to 7,000 women come through Las Vegas, um, on a weekend. We put live programming together, we put these live events and these shows, and it was variety shows, and we have all these different talents. And so that's a great moment to integrate brands. So all of these different Brands paid to come and to be a part so they could be touch points for the women. So there's all these different avenues of money making. Also, we now just launched our agency, which has been wild to see how it started, really, where we would work with brands and they would always have a third-party agency. And so all these agencies come in, and not to shit on them, but like, we kept finding that they didn't understand Unwell. And so they're pitching Unwell to a brand and we're like, wait, you don't get it, this is how we would do it. So all of the brands we started we work with would fire the outside agencies that they worked with and were like, can you guys just do it? And so that was when Matt and I looked at each other one night, we're like, why are we not just launching our own creative agency? And our first partner was Google and it's a multi-year deal, which was so incredible for Unwell to be able to, you know, work with a company of that stature. And that's another great avenue for moneymaking, right? We will basically have a client like Google. They are looking for us to produce commercials to get their products out there to get whatever message they want that quarter out there. And we as the creative agency will create the creative and we have the production backend to facilitate an entire campaign for these companies. So now it's like all of these different verticals, film and television, podcast network, the live events, the merchandise, the consumer products, and now the creative agency. And it's a lot. Wait, and then how does that relate? I'm like, good night.

No, that's amazing. I mean, it's so cool.

Cha-ching. Yeah, literally. Cha-ching.

Whoa. Raking it in. But I mean, I mean, it's so interesting because you're so right. When Unwell started, it was very much like this initial bootstrappy startup.

Yes.

And now you guys have expanded so much. I would be curious if you feel comfortable explaining like actually revenue-wise, how does that split into the different divisions? Like is there one that's the cash king, one that's a startup? Like how does it look?

So I would say that in a beautiful way, the podcast division is really the cash king. But now I would say the creative agency, and we have had this thing running for about 5 to 6 months, not even, um, that has been basically now going toe to toe because all of these agencies are looking to sign multi-year deals. Mm-hmm. So when you're sitting with a Google and they're offering you and, you know, a huge paycheck to basically bring to life our idea, like it's, it's like $120 million. I don't know if I'm allowed to say, but, okay. But I think what's exciting about that is is we have basically said the difference that we're, we've been watching as a company that has been so in the weeds of all of these changes and being kind of at the forefront of media right now and being so nimble is all of these companies are looking for something bigger than a one-off. And influencers, to their credit, in the beginning days were so incredible because they were able to put their camera and film an ad and it was amazing and it was lucrative. Now because of the oversaturation, I think people are less interested in these one-off deals. And so yes, you could sign a year deal with an influencer and get 10 videos, or you could sign a multi-year deal with Unwell who has an entire production office, an entire finance office, who has hundreds of employees. We have directors, we have line producers, we have all these people. So you essentially have the built-in agency that you would also have to get and an influencer, so it's all in one. So we can think like a CMO, we can activate like an agency, and we can produce like a full production house, which is something that's, I think, allowed for us to garner these type of deals pretty quickly. Um, and that has kind of changed the game. And I think with film and TV, we've been able to get more selective. Matt and I have been with the output deals that we have. We could be churning out more content, but I think with film and television now, because of social media, that you want to be doing one big movie a year or you want to be doing one television show a year. So I think we're spacing it out more and we have that ability because of the other revenue streams at the company.

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I'm curious. I want to go back to the super famous $60 million, $125 million deals. Can you explain, like, just to our audience, like, how are those structured? Is it like just all cash up front? It's like, hey, this is over time and you have to hit certain KPIs. And what was the most exciting moment of those deals for you and the most, like, stressful moment?

Oh my God. Okay. Okay, so let's go all the way back. So I will never forget when I was about to sign with Spotify and it was between Amazon and Spotify. I don't think I've ever said that. Um, because at the time it was like, the, these are two huge companies and there was so much that I was looking at both companies and recognizing the value of both company. Spotify, to be honest, it was the same amount of money basically and a little less work. So I was like, why would I not do that? Yeah. And so, cuz with the Amazon deal, it was like so many more episodes and there was, um, it was more behind like certain paywalls and like extra, it was just like a lot as a creator at the time who didn't have a company behind me. And it was just, I was a one woman show. I was just trying to look at how will I be able to execute this type of deal in a capacity that I feel like I'm actually capable of because I wanted to be be a good partner. When someone is handing you that type of money, you want to make sure that you're exceeding their expectations. And so with everything that I looked at with the Spotify deal, I felt like I actually could wrap my head around the deliverables. So it would be 52 episodes a year. Every single month I was paid a check, and it was all guaranteed money, which was so crazy. I didn't have to hit benchmarks. I didn't have to hit anything, which like now in hindsight I'm like, oh my God, Spotify, I love you so much. Daniel, forever love you. It was a really crazy deal. And the other deals I had, I did have to have like hit a certain amount of downloads and then you could X. But I think understandably what Spotify was trying to do at the time was they were trying to gobble up all of the main large competitors in the space, and they wanted every big name to be on that platform because I had an exclusive deal. So I was also taking a hit by taking that Spotify deal because I was going essentially behind a paywall, and I was exclusive to Spotify. You could no longer find me on Apple, which was my biggest platform at the time. And I converted, and all of these millennial Gen Z women came to Spotify, and it was fabulous. And I think what was fun for me was I was kind of their Trojan horse when it came to getting women for podcasting onto the platform, and then obviously Joe for men. And it was successful. I think I think I— yes, I made all that money, which was great, but I think in terms of the new deal I have, one, I think I've gotten so much more savvy in all of the different, like, caveats and carve-outs that you can do in podcasting. Also, podcasting has just expanded. When I first started, like, if you think about it, I had to beg Spotify to let me do video promos on Instagram. Like, they're— like, it wasn't even a video podcast at time. Think about that. Wow. It was just audio. So like the, the industry has transformed so significantly, like putting a product in a video now is, you can get paid for that. Back then there was no way to monetize that. It was just audio. So when I got my deal then with SiriusXM, I was recognizing that there were so many more levers that I could pull. And I think as much as I loved my deal at Spotify, it felt very limiting and singular. By the time I had hit that 3-year window, I was like, there's, I wanna do live events. I want to be able to like integrate merch into selling on the platform. I wanna be able to have comment sections be actually go viral, and that's probably gonna happen on YouTube. And so I think being able to be accessible everywhere became more important than the money. And then the money ended up just happening to still be there, obviously because of the brand recognition. And also now there's more integration opportunities. So SiriusXM has been such an incredible partner. They've, they've integrated into our live events. We have been able to monetize in the show in a capacity that I could have never imagined. So I think that has been wild. And with Sirius, the money is, yes, there is guaranteed. And then in a positive, which I didn't have at Spotify, there's also, um, ability to make fresh cash on top of that initial deal that you read about. So that has blown my mind because because like I said, when we had our first year and we exceeded and we hit our numbers and then we were making fresh cash in the first year, I was like, holy shit, this is, this is so incredible because they've been such good partners that they want to do that and they wanna try to make as much obviously money with us as we can. So it's been kind of crazy.

And then how does it work with, so you sign like a $125 million deal, how much of that goes to an agent? How much of it goes to you? How much of it goes to the company? How does that work?

Work. I love my agent. Um, I love my agent, but, but love you. Um, so we had to have a really honest conversation when I was going into negotiating this new deal with SiriusXM. And I think just like anyone even listening to this, I want to preface, like, I have made so many mistakes in business, and so much of it, especially as a young woman, is no one's going to give you the answers. No one wants to give you the answers because really wants you to succeed. And so, so much of what I've learned has been through just experiencing it and really observing. And if anything, trying to get my nose into rooms and like trying to listen and trying to ask questions, and then they don't answer. And whenever someone doesn't want to answer the question, I'm like, okay, now I need to go know that answer because clearly that's important information that they're gatekeeping and they don't want me to have. So in the beginning days, I was so green. I didn't know what I was— what I didn't know, right? Like, I remember I remember when I signed my Spotify deal and thank God, I forget, I think it was like Matt and my parents and I was like, oh, it's so weird. Like they're gonna deposit the check to UTA and then they're gonna send it to me. And I, and then, and then as I said that, I was like, wait a second. And I realized like, so Spotify was like, where do we send the X amount of million dollars per month? And I was like, I, I, oh, and then their UTA is like, they'll send it to us. Then we'll take our, our percentage out and then we'll send it to you. And I was like, wait, no, I, I want that in my bank account and then I'll send you, yeah, your 10%. Because what, that doesn't, that doesn't make sense. But understandably, as an agency, you want that X amount of millions of dollars coming into whatever agency, UTA, WME, CAA, and then giving it, cuz then they can put that as basically that is in their revenue for the year. And so I'm like, I'm like, oh, I see how all this is going. And so not even that they were being shady, it was one of those just things that clearly many talent just didn't know that. And they're like, oh great, they'll just send me my check through my, my agency. And immediately I sniffed that out and was like, wait, no, no, no, no, you're gonna send that to my bank account and then I'll send you your 10%. So these are little things that you just don't— no one teaches you this shit, right? And so I started to learn that the way things go in business, it can go the way you want it to go, especially if you are the one that is creating the revenue. But when so many systems are put in place and so many people have relationships to each other, like I know that my agency is friends with the Spotify people, it's, it all is very interconnected. And so I learned very quickly that I never wanted my agents to be friends with my lawyers. If anything, I wanted them to hate each other. And I didn't want the company that I was working with to have done deals, hopefully prior, with any of the people that I was working with. And if they had, like, it was not a friendship because all of these people then talk and that's how people lose all their fucking money because everyone's working behind your back. So I made sure in the beginning days that my lawyer and my agent fucking hate each other and I don't have a manager.

Wow. Okay, well, you're a genius for doing that. That makes sense.

But I think that's like people skills. Like, that's what's weird is like, again, and thank God for my parents and my husband, like talking about this shit when you are in business, you kind of just just— you can so easily get bulldozed in rooms where, especially as a young woman, where you're like, okay, and you're looking around and you don't know really what's going on, and you feel like an idiot if you're like, can you explain that to me? But I think from a very young age, my mom always instilled in me like, you need to— nope, you go in and talk to your teacher, and no, you go in and you talk to the doctor. And I always was like, Mom, I want to— I literally want to kill you. Like, I don't want to do that. But it was such a skill that she taught me from such a young age, because it's not even advocating for yourself, it's actually using your voice to understand what you are agreeing to. It sounds so straightforward, and it's not, because you can be like, yes, sounds good. And then if you ask someone back, what did you just agree to? You're like, I don't know, because in these rooms with all these men, it's really intimidating. So So each deal, each opportunity, I think I've just gotten more savvy.

Um, what was the worst mistake you made?

Oh my God. I think I've made mistakes in terms of trusting people where I wish I would've put more things in writing so that I could back up what really happened. Because I think when business, it's so crazy how much emotion can get tied into business. As much as everyone's like, it's business, it's not personal. Everyone takes it fucking personal, especially if it is your own company or your brand. And so many people that I'm sure you guys are dealing with, it's their money, they're wanting to know what's going on. Like, there's so much emotion. And I think sometimes the biggest mistakes I made was being forthright and honest up front and, and having a conversation with someone, and then it turning around and someone being like, oh, Alex Cooper did this. And I'm like, wait, that never happened. But I guess I technically I really should have put that in writing so that I, so I think now I put everything in writing. I put everything in writing after I have a meeting, I send the follow-up of like, and this is what we discussed and this is what you said. And I take notes of everything, every single phone call. If I know it's a little sus or something, take full notes chronologically, put the time, the date, and exactly the transcript.

How much did those mistakes cost you?

I think more, it's more like reputationally than money. Mm-hmm. Um, I would say I've gotten pretty good about not— yeah, but then that, no, there are some times where it's been like, oh, I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose a deal because we all agreed to something in the room and you looked at me in the eyes and you told me this is what we were gonna do and we were all about to sign the paperwork and then I was about to go do it. You changed your tune and you slid something in there that my team found and now we're already starting on a bad foot. Faith negotiation. And so then I ended up just pulling out and it would be like a couple million dollars that I would walk away from instead of sacrificing my brand and my name. And because I'm very particular about what I put my name and my face next to, cuz at some point you're like, how much are you gonna oversaturate yourself? So I've walked away from like millions of dollars because I'm like, that's just too much. And you threw things in there at the last minute because you were getting greedy as a brand or a company wanting me to do something that I don't feel comfortable in. And in the initial conversation, that's not what you presented it has. And I also, even if they rectified it, I think that you have to listen to who you're sitting across from in business. Like when someone is, if something's already going a little sour in the very beginning, instead of trying to fix it and be like, but it's, there will be another moment like that because a lot of it is people. Yeah. You need to like who you're in business with. And I think sometimes people don't talk about that enough. It's like, oh my gosh, but if they're so smart and if they're qualified and it's like, yeah, to a point. And I'm sure you guys have dealt with that where you're like, this person's genius. They're like, don't get me started.

One bag of eggs spoils the whole batch.

Yes.

Ego is the death, especially in tech.

Mm-hmm. And I hate to rag on men, but particularly with men in tech, it is so crazy. That's also, it's so funny. I'm dealing with like almost the opposite where Matt and I laugh about it. He's like, I am one of 4 men basically at this company. We have almost 100 employees at this point. And it's about 6 men. And we're like, there's no men at this company by design. But we were like, I think we could like throw a couple more in there. Like, they— now it's like so much like, like female energy. I'm like, okay, maybe we could use like a little sprinkle of a couple more men. But then we ever—

who does Matt work with?

Matt works with all women. It's so funny when he's in the room. Every single day I'll walk in and it's Matt and then it's all women. And then his main, our main head of production is a man, but he lives in Vancouver, so he's never in person. So it's Matt mainly with our head of podcasting is a woman. Our head of, um, social media is a woman. Our head of marketing is a woman. Our head of, um, partnerships is a woman. Our head of the creative agency is a woman. Our president of the company is a woman. Um, our head of merchandise is a woman. Our HR is a woman. So all the heads of the company.

Wait, and how did you hire all these people?

Okay. It has been such a journey. And I will say, um, starting as a startup, which I am sure you guys can relate to, again, you have a vision when you're hiring of exactly the role you need. And then as you grow, what you hired that person for, as your company grows, the role changes. And so I give a lot of credit to a lot of our executives have been able to be really nimble and mold themselves throughout the years in adjusting and be like, okay, I'm, I, I'm going to be valuable because in the beginning you hired me to do this and now, oh my God, our podcast division started as this and now we're doing acquisition deals and now I need to transform and do this. So there's so much that they've had to transform. And so a lot of the places we look to hire are places that we respect. Disney, Netflix, we have someone that's worked at HBO. We have people who have worked at Microsoft. We have people who have worked at SoFi.

We— how do you interview these people?

Well, we, thank God, our head of HR, is fabulous and she has been so incredible in really getting into the nitty gritty of we're looking for specialists at this point at Unwell. We have very, very specific roles that we are looking to fill. And I think back in the beginning days it was more like just a head of brand and you're like, what the fuck does that mean?

What do you do?

What does that do? Now it's like we have multiple people in the brand division and our CMO versus our like Like all these people have very clear specialist guidelines of what they do and what we like that they do and what they need to execute. So when we are going into our interviewing process, our HR starts it with a— we give her the clearest indicator of exactly what this person needs to do and what their background would probably look like. She does the preliminary first round and then it goes through a tiered system. We have like, I would say, 4 different executives who we trust who will meet with these people individually, and then it gets to Matt and my dad.

Ask.

So they kind of have to go through, like, a round of, like, 4 interviews.

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Have you gotten anyone where everyone else is like them and you're— you say no?

You know what, interestingly, no. There's been a couple where I'm like, I am interested to see what you guys see here, but I respect all of you, so I'm gonna— I'm gonna pull back on this. And some have worked and some haven't. And I was like, I was right.

Oh really?

Yeah, yeah. There's been a couple where I was like— because again, it's more for me like a personality I think that like anyone that is coming to work here is gonna, and, and if they have the right credentials, are gonna be capable of working hard. It's actually now about can you adjust? Unwell is a really, really fabulous and incredible, and I think inspiring place to work, but it is fucking hard.

Yeah.

And I love the culture. Okay, Matt, I always laugh about this cuz Matt's like, you can't say it online, but I can. Like, if you don't wanna work your fucking ass off, then don't come to Unwell. And I'm like, yeah, I guess I can't say that because people would be like, she's so difficult to work with. She's such a monster. Like blah, blah, blah. But Matt is right. We have such a culture of work hard, play hard. And I know that's like overused, but it's true where it's like, you are gonna get to experience some of the coolest things in the world. Like our, some of our company right now is working on the Hannah Montana special and we're like, oh my God, like this is the coolest thing in the world. Right. But at the same time, there is going to be moments where we are having to adjust last minute. You're gonna have to work hard hours. There's going to be moments where creative is, it is subjective and taste is subjective. Not really, but not really to Matt and I, but yeah, to some people. And so we really have a standard that we hold people to. And so, uh, it is, it's a grind. It is a grind because we expect the best and we want to be the best. And I think everyone at this company company can feel, we are at such an exciting time where Unwell is driving culture right now. We are at the forefront in terms of a media company. I really believe no one else is doing what we are doing in the Gen Z female space, and we are getting affirmed by many companies that that is the case. And so we are, we're on an uphill battle right now to keep that momentum. And so every single person at this company is bought in and needs to be like, you are growing personally, whether you want to run this company one day or you want us to write you the biggest, best letter of recommendation when you want to go work at Disney one day. Whatever you see for your path, like, we want to help provide insight and feedback to everyone because I recognize that Matt and I have our dream, we're getting to run this company. This may be a stepping stone for some people, or this may be where people end up retiring one day. They can decide that.

Um, but you're gonna work your ass off. Equity, is that how it works?

This is something that's like hasn't happened yet, but we have been looking at investors. Um, I think there's been PE opportunities. Um, because with private equity, I think when we're talking about acquisition deals for the podcast, right? Like to go buy and gobble up some of the biggest podcasts that you can think of, that's gonna take a lot of money. Yeah. And a lot of cash. And so right now, Matt and I are completely funding this entire company and it has been incredible and lucrative and we've been in the green every single year and that's been great. But to get to the next level, I think that's going to take a certain person to come in as a partner to invest money to the capacity where we can take it to the true next level. And if that happens, then yes, there would be, um, an equity play for people.

It beckons the question of why not, you know, you could do with a private equity firm, why not just spin up your own fund that you and Matt are the managers of and then just get a bunch of LPs?

Like, I mean, how much— maybe you— you're— it's like you're in my conversations at dinner with Matt and I. We have been talking about this for so long, and we've also waited so long because we were like, how long can we basically, like, squeeze the lemon of, like, have it be our own cash, have it be all self-funded, and see how genuinely far we could take it and how big we could make it and how many new IPs we could build and how big the brands could get to then be like, okay, now we need another lever to hit. And I think that's kind of where we're sitting right now. It's like those conversations have been had. I think private equity is, it's interesting. I think more in terms of who are the people with these funds. I think Matt and I are looking for partners to be quite honest. I think Matt and I only have so many hours in a day and we are interested in working with people who can walk into a room and it It doesn't just have to be Matt or I who is sitting at the head of the boardroom and saying, this is what we wanna do. We wanna do a multi-year deal. We wanna do an output deal. We wanna have the television, podcasting, all of it gobbled up here. Like there's only so many times Matt and I can do that conversation. So I think it's also about the right people. Back to, it's not just money, it's also people. So this is all in the works.

No, that makes sense. I mean, what I was also gonna say is, at least for us, a huge learning has been some of the best people that we've attracted to our startup have been heavily incentivized by equity because if they have a portion of the outcome and you're raising venture funding and the valuation continues to increase, then they actually have really tangible upside, which is why I was interested for your executives. If they're incentivized by a profit split or by equity, how do you keep really top players in the game for as long as possible?

So there is a lot of people at the top who have benchmarks that they can hit, that they are incentivized to grow their division, to get it over to the finish line and then some, which is, I think, extremely— I agree— important for people to have that incentivization so they actually are showing up to work every single day to know that if I— what I put into this, I actually will get out of it.

Yeah, it's like sales, like milestone-based incentives. I definitely think works well. And I wanted to shift gears a little bit to also understand for you and Matt, how do you guys split decision-making? Like if you both disagree on something, how do you come to a conclusion?

Okay, this is like a boring answer, but we don't really ever disagree on things and we have yet to had, have a moment where, or is there something you think you are really good at and then Matt's really good at? Yes. Like there will be moments where Matt and I will definitely be like, oh, I think we should do it this way. And he's like, but the minute it comes to creative, he's like, I agree with you. Like, you know what? I trust you. You know that better than me. I think with Matt, he's so good with systems and business where he will recognize, no, this is like, this is the pattern. We need to do it this way. Or this is, this is an opportunity. We need to take this. I just feel like we've done such a good job though in, we're so in lockstep right now, especially with every single decision of this company has been built on Matt and I's, both of our brains. And so we haven't been really faced with a moment where we disagree because we just want the best for this company.

Um, and has he ever looked at one of your contracts and said, that's all wrong, we need to redo it? Like when you guys first started dating, did he give you any business advice?

Oh my God, Matt is brilliant. Like, I love being in a room with Matt because— and I think everyone does— because he is so fucking brilliant. Like, I will give him his flowers. He is so aware of this industry. He has had decade-long relationships. He knows so many people. He's watched so many deals go down. And I think he has had kind of this front back seat to watch all of these things happen in the industry from a very young age as a kid. Um, and now he has been able to kind of put into place. Yes, what he watched, but what he wants to do differently. And I think it's so funny because when I met him, and him being a film and television producer, I— to watch him grow into more of like this business lane, it has been really incredible. Because I remember we were at the Google shoot, we were filming, um, the campaign, and he had hired his friends to direct it who created Catfish. Henry and Raelle, shout out, we love you. And they were amazing, and they're doing doing their thing, and Matt's in the trailer pacing back and forth on calls. And I'm like, oh, I feel so bad, like he's missing out on the creative because like he's, he's taking a call about whatever. And he, at the end of the day, we get into the car and he looks at me and he goes, I just had the craziest realization today. This is the first time in my life where I wasn't sad that I wasn't getting to be a part of the creative because I'm so fulfilled by the business side of things right now. He's like, I've never felt more stimulated. He's reading everything. Matt is up at 5:00 AM reading every single possible thing that you can possibly see in the news, in business, everything. He's just a sponge right now, and he's so good. And I think he's such a great leader, so I have learned so much from him. Um, and I think we've also had to balance him and I as a duo, and we're looking for more people to surround us so it's not just Matt and I walking into rooms being like, this is what we want. Because it's hard to like negotiate your own deals. Yeah. So, but then also it's like you then have to trust your agency. I don't have a manager. You have to trust your lawyers. We have incredible people around us, but it's taken a while and it's taking some shifting to actually get people that we think, I believe in you to advocate for us. Because Matt and I are the type of people that are like, no one can do it better than us. I'm like, there's no one that can walk into that room and actually get the deal done in the way that Matt and I want it. And so we're both like, all right, practice it again. Tell us what you're going to say. And we're walking it through with these people because I'm like, we know exactly what we want. So sometimes it's frustrating. And sometimes we do walk into the room and we'll just be like, fuck it, let's just ask for it. But sometimes that's the name of the game, right? You have to have the agents and the lawyers go in and kind of like schmooze everyone up and lube them up and tell them what they want. So sometimes Matt and I are like, oh fuck, we wish we could be in there. But it's fine, it's fine.

That's so funny.

Do you feel like when you stop working with certain people, like Alex, like, do you feel like these things become gendered where people are kind of like, oh, it's a catfight, or things like that, when, you know, it's really a business transaction?

It sounds like, yeah, I I think I've definitely gotten better at actually taking the emotion out of that aspect. I think that I've— like, I just understand my position, and I, I think I am not someone who is very apologetic about my success. And I've talked with my therapist and my mom about this a lot. I think that there are people who do a really good job that I'm sure you guys also know where like they come online and they're so grateful and they're so grateful and then you meet them and they're like a fucking asshole in person. You're like, wait, that's a whole shtick. Like I'm not gonna do a shtick. I deserve to be where I am. I've worked my fucking ass off. And so I think there is sort of this narrative around me that people think I'm cold or, you know, I'm gonna fuck people over to get what I want. When you experience the culture, when you meet me, when you know me, like, You don't say those things. So I think I just have to let that roll off my back because at the end of the day, like the deals are coming in, the money's being made, the audience is still there. Call Her Daddy has never been bigger. The numbers have never been bigger. The brand IP has never been worth more. So it's like, I will go away when everyone wants me to go away, but it's like you're thriving. It's never been more successful. So I think I also have to take it with a grain of salt when people spin this narrative and So I'm like, I kind of have had to just let it go because it doesn't— I, it really used to upset me. Being misunderstood is really hard and it's upsetting, especially when you're like, wait, I wanna correct this. But I've just found the more you try to correct it, the more that you're actually putting yourself in a position that's unauthentic. And so now I kind of just sit back and I just chill.

Alex, thank you so much for coming on The Burnout.

Oh my God. Honor. This is so fun. So honored that I finally got to do this. And I'm so proud of you guys. And I'm so happy as a woman in this industry to know both of you. You're such an inspiration. I obviously follow everything you guys are doing. I have FIA on my phone. I'm always using it. My little toggle, beep, beep, beep. I'm like, boom. Yes. I want to find the other option. Thank you very much. Save me some money. You guys are brilliant and everything you're doing is such an inspiration. And the fact that you have your business, plus you've done such an incredible job with the podcast. You guys work so fucking hard, and everyone at the company talks about it. Like, you guys are a force to be reckoned with. You're constantly uploading your cutdowns. Like, I think a lot of times my biggest fear with podcasters, it's like it kind of has to be your full-time job, and this somehow always looks like it's your full-time job. Meanwhile, I'm like, they literally just started their whole fucking company and they're coding in the back rooms, but then they're somehow managing to do all this. Like, you guys are one of one. So thank you so much for obviously giving me the time and letting me come the show.

Oh joy, another day, another bus delayed.

Look on the bright side, you can finally catch up on podcasts.

You don't mind running late? What's your deal?

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