Mastering Enterprise Sales: Navigating Complex Organizations

Good afternoon, good evening everyone, wherever you are joining from. Uh, again, this is at another great Sales Table webinar, and today we have Mustafa Kutup, and we are so honored to have him. I mean, he is one of the sales leaders in the Bay Area and especially super pragmatic in enterprise sales, and today we're really diving into a lot of the high-level strategy and then also the execution part of the enterprise sales. And without further ado, Mustafa, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Suresh. It's a, it's a great pleasure and I'm looking forward to the conversation today.

No, absolutely. So to really get started, a lot of sales reps or AEs and sales managers who are out there they're always looking at the sales leadership roles are not really like a straight path where there is only one way to go. And then there are so many ways that people actually get to the sales leadership roles. And I would love to kind of, you know, dig deeper in what's been your track and trajectory. And if you can throw some light on where you started and then what are those seminal moments in your career where you said, Hey, you know what, this is, you know, I'm uncomfortable taking this role, but if I don't take this role, then I'm not really pushing myself forward. If you can kind of, you know, get it through, that'll be super helpful.

I'd be happy to share my experience. In fact, uh, it's, it's a bit different than a lot of folks. I started my sales career actually mid-career, and in fact, I avoided sales a bit like the, the plague. I didn't really know what it was until I got involved with it.

Wow.

And my journey was a little atypical. I started out in marketing. I was in analyst relations, industry analyst relations, public relations, research. And I actually had went to law school, thought I was gonna take a very different path. What I found is I kept going back to business and I wanted to do my own startups. I found there was something I was lacking. And what I realized in reflection is, hey, I don't really understand how sales works. So I took that dive in just for an education. I started in channel sales and what I found out is it's something completely different than what I thought. It really is about understanding the human dynamic. And that was such, once that clicked, I was stuck. I mean, I was sold. I looked at sales as something entirely different, an exploration of the human experience.

Yeah.

And I loved that. And for me then, I went from essentially a channel manager where I was doing a lot of outbound, a lot of the traditional full-cycle things, but starting really as an SDR, BDR, and then taking it through the entire cycle working for an antivirus company. So in the cybersecurity space, I then got into the startup arena working again in cybersecurity before that company was acquired. I worked at a larger company, Akamai, for some time, which was a phenomenal experience, getting a sense of some of those underpinnings of the internet, as well as how cybersecurity worked with these enterprise companies that they were selling to. And then I brought myself back to the startup world, and that's when I had the opportunity, actually started with Akamai, to really start progressing my career into a management type of arrangement where I had enough experience to really be able to lift up those teammates around me, help share some best practices, and then take on those responsibilities of managing a team. Once you, you've got that down, I was able to really start building out my, my own sales philosophy and with the help of a coach. And once you've got that methodology packaged, you can start really making some advances in terms of your career. And I've done that with a number of different startups right now.

That's amazing. Wow. Um, there are multiple topics that I want to touch upon, so I think I'll probably go one by one based on, uh, what you just said. So from most of the technology companies that you worked on, I'm sure— I think a lot of it is engineering-driven or product-driven because there is a lot of, you know, innovation that happens. And honestly, my first decade of, uh, my career was really in the engineering and product, and I always looked at sales as, yeah, okay, you know, you build something, they will go sell anyway, right? And not until I started selling my own, I realized the importance of sales. I mean, it doesn't really matter honestly where the salespeople are in the hierarchy. Every single sales team member is so, so uniquely valued to an organization, right? And I'd love to kind of, you know, dig upon, especially in the enterprise sales that you've been through, how was that cooperation and coordination between the innovation teams, like the R&D teams and product teams and the sales in general?

So I loved being, and this is one of the things that we don't get as much of with a distributed workforce, but I loved sitting next to not just the product team, but the engineering team.

Yeah.

Because you always knew how they were solving problems and what was coming up. and the actual understanding of how the technology worked helped take some of those abstract concepts that you as a salesperson are going to be talking about and really gives you a grounding of what the day-to-day looks like for those who'll be using your platform. And I think that is the most important thing for us to remember. At the end of the day, we're selling something that someone needs to decide they want to buy. Why do people want to buy something? And there's so many different factors that go into it, but ultimately at the end of the day, It is a, it's got to be a better experience. It's got to be a usable experience. It's got to be a, in many cases, I want to say an easy experience for the people who are going to be hands-on leveraging your software and understanding what that looks like for them today, your end customer, as well as what that could look like in the future is such an important aspect. of the sales cycle, because that's tangible, that's real, and ultimately that will often determine whether or not, even if you get that initial sale, you're going to have a renewal or someone's going to have an expansion down the line with your platform. Is this something people are actually going to use and why? And understanding that, working closely with the engineering team is critically important. Now, from the other side, you're going to get all of these suggestions as to how your product could be better, be different.

Right.

And the engineers typically don't have the opportunity to be out there in the field and solicit those types of questions and get that kind of feedback. And so you're critical for advancing what the product's going to look like and sharing that with the product leaders, sharing that with the field. It's invaluable. And I think this is the guidance I'd give to any sales rep. Don't neglect that. Now, It's very important that you understand that not every request that a customer is going to make is immediately going to make it into the product, nor should it. But sharing that as intelligence— this is what I'm hearing— and yeah, we're seeing some critical mass around some of these ideas. You know, maybe, maybe this is something we really want to consider, and that's when that value is really there for product and engineering.

Absolutely. I think, uh, there are 2 points that I want to reiterate that you just said, right? One, I think there is so much value for sales teams to understand the nitty-gritty details. I mean, even if somebody really doesn't get into deeper of technology, but why does this product work? What is that IP that the engineering teams, product teams are building in a way that you can easily explain to a customer? That's super critical for sales teams, right? And on the same way for the engineering teams and the product teams, what is customer saying and what objections, questions that a customer is really asking when they look at this product is really important because at the end of the day, yes, we all translate in different ways and then especially in enterprise sales, there are so many levels of feedback that we get and things get lost in translation. I think in these situations, it's always great for a product manager or an architect from the engineering team to be there on these calls to really hear, I mean, what's happening with the product? What are customers saying? What are users saying? Or especially the prospect, the first time they see the product, what's that reaction looking like, right? Those are invaluable in a way. I mean, because at the end of the day, I'm sure, you know, we can't necessarily translate in a great way I know these days a lot of people actually do the Zoom webinars and then send it saying, oh, you know what, this is the great webinar, you go look into it. But again, honestly, I mean, who is really looking at a 1-hour webinar with an intention to learn from that? I think again, there is that overload of video recordings as well that is happening. To your point, I think there is that right collaboration between the whole of engineering product teams and the sales teams is so crucial. for enterprise sales success, right?

And I don't want to underplay the role that product and engineering plays in the sale itself. So you highlighted something just now about having everyone on that call, and when that— that timing of that call is critical, and the people who are on that call is critical too, because a lot of times in these really complex enterprise sales, you're going to want to make as part of your general practice just ties between different folks and whether it's in engineering or the executive team and those on the customer staff, that's key to building trust and that ongoing conversation and making sure you're doing it at the right time with the right people is gonna be really important.

Yeah, absolutely. And just to touch upon, you mentioned something very important for me, which is you had a coach that you were going through in your career as to really kind of, you know, help you guide through. And that's something that a lot of sales teams in general underrate, the importance of a coach. Because at the end of it, I mean, here is what we've seen a lot of mid-market or even startups happen, right? I mean, an SDR or BDR joins the organization and then this individual is doing so good that they get promoted to, Director of Sales. But then the problem is, yes, this person is great at selling, but they probably don't have the right, uh, experience in managing people or managing other salespeople, right? And now you get to a place where you are expecting this person with the title to manage and then build high-performing teams, but at the same time they don't have that right experience and guidance to actually build that, right? And the reason why that is very crucial is a lot of these teams, by the time they get to the director of sales or VP of sales, there is so much of expectation on them and they fall flat in that role. And it's like a point of no return at that point, at the time, right? So I would love to kind of, you know, get your thoughts on the importance of having a coach and how coaches really help you in your career.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. And so often, because we're human beings, we deal with the simplest and easiest form of information to make decisions. And oftentimes that, were you successful with A, B, or C? And if you're starting out your career, you can say, yeah, I hit my numbers.

Yeah.

And in sales, it's really easy to point to that. So much goes into that. What is— what you just described is not understanding the why. And that is the same challenge that so many organizations, so many individuals get when selling to a customer, not understanding not just the company's why, but the individual's why. What a coach helps you do is understand why you were successful. In the first place and how you can translate that into whatever different environments and settings you're in, right? In fact, I view the, the best coaches as, as truly sales psychologists. They're sitting across the table from you and they're helping you really get a better understanding of who you as an individual are as it relates to the profession and how you can be the most impactful manager. how you can be the most impactful leader, how you can be the most impactful advocate for your customer, for your organization. Without that, you're working in an echo chamber, your own experience. And—

Right.

What you find is that those who only see one aspect of this and aren't challenged on it, if you run into something that's a bit different, you get just what you described, which is a really challenging situation where There's no reason on paper why someone shouldn't be successful, but the underlying reasons for their success and how they translated into the new environment were never properly articulated and never understood by them. And that's where a coach comes in and can be wildly impactful.

Completely. And I'll tell you, Mustafa, I mean, I think, you know, one of the constant themes that I am kind of hearing from all sales leaders that I've been talking to so far is understanding of why, right? Especially I think this is something that I'm hearing from sales leaders again and again and again, every webinar that I do. Because at the end of the day, it's really like, yes, sales is a very high-pressure job at the end of the day. Meeting the monthly, meeting the quotas, I mean, and then people constantly with the fear of, oh, would I get into PIP? the program and all these things. And this basically means at the end of the day, as a sales leader, you need to really understand the motivations of every sales rep that you have, sales managers that you have. Again, it's not just about saying what is your career growth, but it is also really about what's your personal growth plan that you have, and how can you really combine your personal goals and professional goals. And you as a leader, how can you kind of really give them that way and pathways for them to achieve those goals, right? That seems to be—

For me, it's all— I'm sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean to—

Oh no, yeah, that's, uh, yeah, uh, you have some thoughts on that.

For me, it's— it comes down to purpose and alignment of purpose. And that's— and when we talk about our why, that's what we're really getting at. The organization has a purpose, the sales organization has a purpose, but so does the individual. That individual be— I always, whenever I start in a startup, I say, you know, life is hard, sales is hard, startups are really hard. How do we be as impactful as we can understanding that? And for me, it's aligning that purpose. You have to be a purpose-driven organization. As an individual, you have these drivers. How do they align with what the organization needs, with the sales team needs? and most importantly, what the customer needs. And that, once you're able to highlight that for each one of the individuals, it can become so much more impactful. And of course, we also have to be asking those questions of ourselves as leaders as well.

Absolutely. Um, and now, uh, Mustafa, I mean, um, shifting the gears in a way, now coming back to the whole of the enterprise sales in general, the last 10 years, I would say, have really come into the market a great mix of these products where enterprise sales is one aspect of it. And at the same time, a lot of these product-led growth companies that have come in where the adoption is really not the top-down but bottom-up approach, right? And when we really think about the initial, I mean, great example is Atlassian, right? where it's really about the Jira, Confluence, or Trello. All these products were really the bottom-up approach that happened. But at some point of time they realized, oh my goodness, you know what, the money is actually in the enterprise. So we have to go to the top-down approach as well. And then that is when even the company like Atlassian now has the sales teams and whatnot. Previously they used to think about only the customer success teams, but now they have the— full enterprise sales team. So when, from your point of view, what was that shift that you've seen in enterprise sales in the last 5 years? Especially when we think through, there is so much of that high demand up until 2021, for example, and then now 2022, 2023, and then especially in 2024, things have slightly changed, whether it is because of the macroeconomic situations or not. The enterprise sales or any sales in general is not the same.

So there's so much that's in flux right now and I've never seen, and I think we probably will continue to see this trajectory, you know, Moore's Law has transitioned to whatever we're experiencing now with AI and the way that the market's changing, that it is so rapid. I think a lot of the consumers of the technology that's being developed are asking themselves these same questions. How do we buy? How do we decide what's important to us? So all of this is changing and we as salespeople need to adapt with it. I think one of the big things that you highlighted is, well, there's product-led growth and then there's the top-down approach, the traditional enterprise sale. Right now, For most complex enterprise solutions, if you can have both, that's phenomenal. But it's really gonna come down to what your product is, what the niche is, whether it's suited for a product-led growth, meaning is it something that an individual gravitate to, can easily adopt on their own and use in a meaningful way that they will then be able to advocate for internally, and that'll yield some kind of critical mass? Or are you talking about something that's dealing with really complex challenges that are multi-departmental, that are cross-organizational, that take a lot? And it doesn't even necessarily have to be physical challenges in terms of integrations, but really a cultural change in terms of the adoption of the solution, in which case you're probably not going to—

Right.

get what the return that you're looking for from product-led growth, you're going to really need to— and I don't ever want to say exclusively top-down because you need buy-in from everybody— but a top-down approach where you're aligning with corporate goals and you're showing how your product, your solution helps achieve those.

Absolutely. So, um, just digging deeper on that one, when we think about the top-down approach, I mean, we have these different personas in a way, right? I mean, the whole of buyers, users, influencers, and then architects, whatever we really think of that as. From your point of view, what are those best practices? Or how would you recommend in thinking through when we really look at the ICPs? Yes, you know, there are titles probably that you want to go after in these organizations. But at the same time, some— sometimes it's not even about the title. How do you kind of, you know, look through and swift through these titles and the people in a way you can quickly get to a place where, yes, these are the four five people that are important for us for this deal, and if we have them at the on the same line, then we can fast track this deal versus I'm sure we've all gone through some deals where you go through one two three four five ten meetings, and then in the tenth meeting we. realize that, oh, you know what, the right person is not there, we want to include that person in the 11th meeting, and then it just kind of keeps getting ugly day by day, right?

That, that, yes, that is a very painful and relatable, um, description of, of many enterprise sales cycles. And I think it gets down to the challenge that many organizations or many sales, uh, professionals don't recognize out of the gates. When someone tells you, you talk to them like, how is this done within your organization? How do you buy things? Most people will respond, you know, they'll tell you what they know. They won't tell you what they don't know. And most of the time with these new technologies, the— and with the rapid change that we're seeing that we just talked about in the buying arena and how organizations are actually procuring software, people don't know. And it might even be at a relatively high level that they're not entirely sure how they purchase the platform that, that you're selling, if it's a sophisticated enterprise solution. And so there's a number of things that you can do. There's both pre- and post-engagement, and obviously there's going to be overlap. But one of the things— how well do you understand your product? If you're talking to the engineering folks, the product folks, then you start to understand the ecosystem. You know the dependencies, you know the different types of considerations that someone who's leveraging this solution is going to be thinking about. So if there's, say, if you have a database management solution, well, what is the underlying technology that's gonna be leveraged and who is actually gonna be using that?

Yeah.

Is it someone who's also responsible for a certain piece of software? So as you're going through your initial outreach, you're going to be looking— you're going to go to LinkedIn, you're going to search for certain terms, you're going to try and find some commonalities for the ecosystem that you're selling to. If they're hiring for particular individuals with certain skill sets that are required to leverage your platform or leverage something that's ancillary to it, that's what you're going to be looking for. Now, who are we hiring here? Do they have experience with competitive products? These are the types of things that you want to look for when you're first doing that outreach. Now, once you're inside the organization, you have to keep asking that conversation, uh, that question rather, and having that conversation. Who else cares? How does this— what happens next? And sometimes you're going to run into someone who's like, I don't know. All right.

Yeah.

Well, last time you did X, and that's where you as an advocate, as a sales professional, can really start helping your customer get through this process and really show your value? Because what you do when you start unearthing that is you recognize, well, there's some questions that need to be answered. Well, who can answer those questions? Maybe they don't know, but they think it's over here. So then you can start asking over there. Now, ultimately, the question comes up, well, who's the decision maker? Usually it's not one person in complex enterprise sales. There's a lot of people, but there's maybe one person that ultimately has a buying authority. And what one of my old CEOs used to like to say is, you know, it's always the person who says they're not the one at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Because everyone likes to say, oh, it's me. Yep, I'm responsible for this decision. And it's very easy to get caught in that trap, particularly if you're new to sales. You're like, all right, well, I found the right person and we're gonna just get it done and it's great. And it's almost never that individual in the silo and helping that individual get to that point where they're comfortable with you in order to kind of explore what that looks like so they can be successful is really important, but not getting stuck in that single-threaded approach to selling and that single individual is really important in complex enterprise sales.

Yeah, so in agreement on that. I mean, especially the point really there is when we're talking to these people, we have to make them look good in front of their customer— I mean, their own bosses, their own users at the end of the day. So the idea is, do you have all the answers to questions that your internal users are asking for, your bosses are asking for, your influencers are asking for? If not, at least bring me in front of them so that I have an opportunity to discuss and talk to them on how we can solve these problems together. That's a very collaborative way of selling and making sure that the pressure is not just on that one person within that organization to sell this tool to others, for example. Because so many times, yes, we identify a champion, but then we over-rely on this champion so much that sometimes champions actually get burnt out after a quarter, 2 quarters. They're like, oh, you know what, there is a new person coming in, you know, I can't take this anymore, and then move on.

And that goes back to the, the why again. Why, why are they doing it anyway? What is a win for them? And sometimes we make assumptions, and that's That's the challenge that we all in sales run into where it's what you said is absolutely the case, but make sure that you as an individual understand that what you are providing that person with is the right stuff. Because so often, like, well, this is what someone needs to be able to sell our product. Maybe, maybe not. And oftentimes the person you're working with isn't in sales and doesn't necessarily know how to sell. And they'll hear that first no, and they'll be like, well, I guess that's, that's it, unless it's truly important for them. And then they find ways to open that up. And you, as that advocate, you as the individual working with them representing your organization, you need to help them along that path and really map out what that looks like. And ideally, you get to a position of trust where Of course they want you talking to other people in the organization. That makes it much easier for them to be successful and realize their goals.

Yeah, yeah. So to that extent, Mustafa, I mean, there is one of the sales leaders that I worked before, he used to say the real job of a sales leader starts when he hears no from the prospect the first time, right? Until then, it's all great. We've been exchanging emails or phone calls or whatever. The moment you hear no, now the real job starts. Again, it's not to be saying we want to be pushy or we want to push our solutions into the thing, but really trying to understand what are those scenarios, what are those objections, and then why do you think this solution doesn't fit your criteria? Really getting into those insights is so valuable. Many of the sales reps, when they're starting off or even some of the experienced ones, they don't really dig deeper with the fear of thinking, oh, I might burn the bridge. But whereas you are actually trying to understand in a genuine way, yes, we came here so far with the demos that we did and the email exchanges and everything. What changed all of a sudden? Or maybe what are the things that we need to improve in the product or the way that we sell that will help you, right? And many times we actually kind of are fearful of asking those very pertinent questions. And that's one thing that I've been hearing from a lot of sales leaders, especially in the last couple of years, those kind of one-on-one discussions are increasing.

I think it's critical because I think you have to put yourself in the position of a buyer. Why do you buy? It's not because someone just gives you a product slick and says all the right things and all of a sudden, all right, I'm convinced. You have to make that decision internally and there's a lot that goes into that. As someone on the other side of the table, you have to have an ability to help that person articulate it because again, Sometimes we make decisions without even consciously thinking about the why ourselves, and I think that is why, as a sales professional, you need to always be thinking about that, and not for your own benefit, but for the person across from you. Why are you doing this today? One of the traps that so many reps fall into is everything's going smoothly. They want to buy this, they see it right away. Well, great, you know, chances are if that's the case, We don't need salespeople because our product sells itself and all we have to do is market it the right way and everyone will figure it out. Don't get caught in that because what that often means is that, not always the case, but often people aren't investing the emotional energy and the time into really investigating the solution. They're not taking it seriously enough.

Mm-hmm.

Because if they are, they're asking you really hard questions 'cause they don't wanna make a mistake. They wanna make sure that this is the right fit for them and for their organization, because if they're making a big investment, they're not gonna be happy all the time. They're not gonna just say, oh, well, that checks all the boxes. You want that pushback because that means you can really get into the value. 'Cause once you get into those substantive conversations, if you go through a laundry list of why your product's great, you'll never know what really resonates for that organization. And at a certain point, all of your top-line bullets might have no value to that, the top-line goals of that organization, but there might be something your solution does that someone in that organization can see and articulate that absolutely would. And you need to be able to get there because ultimately that's what really makes the difference when, when someone's signing that check.

Yeah, you know what, Mustafa, I think, you know, um, that is so spot on, uh, and great insight, by the way, uh, because at the end of the day, if your prospects are coming to a demo and then they looked at the demo and they said, oh, you know what, no, this looks great, this probably exactly solves our problem. And then we go back telling our leaders, oh, you know what, this prospect is great, they understood the value and then they will sign up sometime. That's really a red flag for me personally, right? Because at any point of time, exactly to your insight, If people are not asking questions, if they're not asking for, oh, you know what, do you have these features, those features? And then are you compliant? I mean, you know what, this is great by the way, but I want another demo for my users or for my other influencers that are out there. Sorry, I didn't really bring them today. That's the discussion that we want when people are serious enough because now they're thinking, you know what, yes, I like this, it's very nice, but I'm only writing the check, for example, right? There are actually the users that are out there who has to see this, who has to at least, you know, give the opportunity for them to ask questions. If that kind of discussion is not there, then there is something wrong in the whole process, right?

Absolutely. Um, and to your point earlier, I don't think companies are There, I don't know if this was ever the case, but certainly there was a day and time when people were more cavalier with some of these purchases. You could get things wrong. People don't, there isn't that luxury anymore. You've gotta account for the spending. These sales, no one's gonna buy something just because it looks good on paper.

Exactly. So, Mustafa, I mean, it's funny you talked about they just don't need the software because Last year actually I spoke to a bunch of sales leaders where they're like, you know what, Sales Table is great and I want to really talk to you about how we are consolidating the technology that we have. Because especially as CROs and then VP of Sales, they're now looking at every single line item that they're checking off on a monthly basis or yearly basis and then saying, do we really need these tools? Do we really need these licenses? And who is using it? I mean, do we have the right integrations in place? And that's really where we've seen last year a lot of sales leaders that we talked to, they consolidated. I mean, if they are working on 15 tools, they basically cut down and then came down to something very bare minimum. Of course, CRM has to be there, but In addition to CRM, what else can be out there? I think that's the same challenge that 2024 has thrown in front of the sales leaders as well with this whole influx of AI tools, Mustafa. Some of these insider meetings that we get into, sales leaders are so frustrated because they say, hey, you know what, my sales manager or director of sales, and they are basically using the credit cards, they are buying these AI tools, you know, $20 per month, $15 per month, and all that. And now when I kind of consolidate that on a quarterly basis, on a yearly basis, people are using 15, 20 different AI tools, right? Nobody knows why they are using what they are using is number one. Number 2, there is no real workflow between one AI tool that you have to another AI tool. People just take the subscription and then they use it for a couple of weeks and then that newness is gone and they realize that yes, there is no flow, workflow, there is no integration, so they don't use anymore. Probably I want to hear from you, How are you really thinking about this explode of the AI tools and what's your probably vision for the next 1 year?

I think you just articulated it so well and whether people wanna talk about shadow IT or however you want to really categorize some of that spend and some of the, I guess, the lack of, or some of the move towards, the consolidation and the utilization metrics around the existing tool stack that a lot of organizations are looking at has— this has all coincided with a greater involvement from finance. So you've always, for really large enterprise software engagements, you've always had at least a signature coming from a CFO or something, but now you're actually getting CFOs who are involved at a strategic level corporate level in some of these technology initiatives. And that is different. That's new because so much of what the spend is going to needs to be justified. And what you described is there's all these different— and this is what really lends itself to product-led growth— all these different AI tools out there. There's all these different cloud services out there. You're starting to see these initiatives saying, no, these all need to fall under a certain bucket. and they need to be managed internally. So all of our AWS spend, for instance, we need to make sure that we are doing this very deliberately because we've got this wild spend where people are spinning up all these instances all over the place and we've got no idea where it's coming from. And then we do some reconciliation and we're paying all of it. There's got to be ways to bring this in and centralize it. And I've been seeing that over the last few years is that Even in high tech where you tended to see a lot of siloed approaches using best of breed within an organization, you're seeing more centralized IT and more centralized spend oversight, and that impacts everything. And I do think that that will be its own check on all these different AI tools out there, but it's not gonna be necessarily easy. for the enterprise salesperson, because you still need to work your way through that noise, particularly when you're working out with the actual users of the software. And then you need to be able to align it at this highest level.

Completely with you. And, um, so, so far we, we discussed on how complex these— some of the enterprise sales techniques are, bringing in the consensus from different people and everything. How do you think about coaching and training for these sales reps in the team in general? Because one of the constant challenges that we see is, I think in the US, the average is about 5 to 6 months is really the onboarding time for any sales rep. And then about 35 to 40% is the sales rep churn on a yearly basis, right? And which is staggering, by the way, right? I mean, it's unfortunate that, you know, sales leaders and then in general in the industry, people take it for granted. Yeah, I mean, that's the stat, right? That's how it is. But it's really about how are you nurturing these reps and then the middle managers and everybody? What's your view on that whole coaching and training?

There's a Few things, a few themes there I think really need to be explored. I think part of the challenge, and this is, we're not gonna get away from it anytime soon, is sales is, it's a well-compensated profession, but it's also a brutal one. It's just tough. And a lot of that for some of those reps, when you refer to churn, is gonna be luck, timing. I mean, I've seen some of the top producing reps, you know, after a couple of bad quarters, all of a sudden they may be executing really well, but they're on the top of the list, someone's list of saying, hey, you know, this isn't working. I think we're also too knee-jerk in making some of those decisions and not looking at the substance.

Yeah.

So I do think that some of that churn is really at the detriment of those organizations because so many people are just like, listen, we just gotta move on. Well, There is a huge cost to that. So be deliberate, understand why you're moving on. And if it's the right thing, this person isn't actually taking, doesn't understand the training, isn't executing in the field the way that you want them to, then you're gonna have to do that. If not, find a way to retain the talent and understand that there's gonna be highs and lows. And that is where you really need to have a manager who understands. Doesn't, it's not about liking the person. It's about, does this person understand what we're doing, how we're doing it, and do they consistently go out there and execute in a, in the manner that we want them to? Because if they do, you know, over time they will be successful if you've got the right program in place. And I think that's the key. You've got to have a program that can be easily adopted, understood, and scale. There's a lot that goes into that, and you have to have an enablement program that allows for consistency. The biggest thing that you want to have on your team is a common language. So when everyone's talking about their different engagements and sharing their best practices, everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. There's always going to be approximation, but eliminating some of that confusion by having a common language is going to be key for any organization. But then having a— you want to iterate it, but having a stable Onboarding program.

Yeah.

And making sure that you have expectations that are set, that are very, very clear for your team is critical to its success. So if you want to make sure that people are adopting your methodology, your process, you've got to have ways to measure that. And you've got to set expectations for someone to be able to prove out that they can do it. And then there have to be expectations for what happens if you're not able to achieve that. And so what I always say in the beginning is just lay it out from the start. Make sure that anyone who's coming on, onboarding, understands what resources are available, what gaps they might have to fill in themselves, how they go about getting questions answered, understanding how they're going to be evaluated, and what happens if they don't achieve certain goals. Because the last thing you want to do is create confusion or create an environment where people feel that they're not being treated fairly or they don't understand what the expectations are and what success looks like. Once you've got all that in place, then you as a manager need to be able to know how to evaluate those individuals in a, in a way that really looks at not just what they've accomplished, But what it is they've accomplished, what's underlying those numbers and what's underlying the activity that they have. And there's a lot that goes into that. But again, it is about tracking and measuring and being attuned, but also understanding that this is business about people.

Right.

And at the end of the day, it's— you've got to be cognizant of that as well.

Yeah, I mean, the net-net of that, I mean, what I hear from you is it's really about understanding what good looks like, having the expectations, and having a repeatable process to be able to really get that again and again, right? Because so many leaders actually get stuck on saying, oh, these are the quota, this is the quota that you have, and then did you achieve it or not? Yes, I think, you know, Quota attainment is really, really important. But at the same time, making sure that there is, as part of the process, what are those inputs looking like? What are those set of activities that you should do consistently that will help you achieve the goals? That part is something a lot of sales leaders, at least that we talk to, say that's something that we want to improve a lot because That changes from time to time based on the situations, based on the products, and based on the economic times and whatnot. But how quickly are you able to adapt to these changes? The importance of— I think you mentioned something very critical, which is the enablement teams. Because yes, I think while sales and the revenue teams are really focused on just the revenue, revenue, revenue, yes, that is important. But how do you improve that efficiency? Having a completely well-oiled machine, I think, is really the great job that enablement teams does. That's also something that a lot of leaders are now thinking about. You know what? I have one person who is doing the enablement, but how do I bring in more people who can actually help my team to get better?

I think you can't lose sight of that because So often what will happen is organizations will fall into a trap where someone will hit numbers for a while and you get lured into this, well, you know, this person's just good or better than these other individuals without again getting back to the why.

Yeah.

What was it about these? And sometimes it's, yeah, this person really understands something. What we want to do is we want to package what that individual has done and find a way to approximate it for everyone. And those people that are able to take it, this is the right model, and we want to keep those people. Sometimes an absurd amount of luck can play into that. And if you don't understand that, one, you could be propagating the wrong system, or two, you might get lost in this— Well, the numbers are the only thing that That matters at the end of the day.

Yeah.

And not really recognizing that what sales is about is a— it's not very exciting, but it's repetition of these best practices again and again and again and again. And over time, statistically, you do the right stuff all the time, you are gonna get those results. And when someone simply isn't able to adopt Those behaviors, then you can say, all right, hey, this isn't a fit. This doesn't make sense. But chances are, if someone's doing all those things and you can see it day in, day out, it's reflected in the numbers, it's reflected in the calls, reflected in the engagement, then you'll notice, well, there are some whys here in terms of why they're not successful. They don't necessarily resemble the why someone else was successful. On this end, it could, particularly if you're in a very low-volume enterprise sale, a lot of these things can balance on things that are outside of your control. And understanding whether or not some of these situations fall under that umbrella is the job of a sales executive to really delve in and understand that.

Gotcha. Yeah, um, I know, I mean, I want to kind of, you know, keep going. This is such a great discussion, by the way. Mustafa, but as the last question, I think I'm really interested in, from the, again, enterprise sales context, how do you really bring in that winning culture to the team? Right? I mean, it's not really about one day, one person, but it's really done over a period of time with everybody inclusive in the team. But what are those things? How do you prioritize the communication, collaboration, and strategic thinking? to really bring in that winning culture?

I think that culture in many— I think it's on a lot of people's lips these days, but I think it's still greatly underappreciated. I think it's the core for a successful sales organization. Understanding what allows someone to thrive in your program is the core responsibility of a sales leader. And it may not be the same thing for everyone. There are different motivators for, for different individuals.

Mm-hmm.

But in general, what is a system that you can put in place that allows an individual to thrive? And what does that mean? For me, that is about a, a fire that is lit, an enthusiasm that allows someone to feel comfortable that they can go out there and they want to execute regularly. If there is an element of fear to it, it's because they love what they're doing so much, they don't want to lose it. And I think that is the key thing that you want to be able to bottle up. So how do you find a way where that— those individuals on your team feel that they have the security and the backing to go out there and do what they need to do and be successful and the drive to continue doing that? And for me, it's about one, transparency, making sure that everyone knows what the expectations are, how to really take advantage of all the different resources available to them. It is having regular conversations as sales managers, sales directors, sales VPs with your team and making sure that that purpose is still aligned with the corporate purpose and Understanding how tangibly the folks on your team are achieving that and recognizing that. Because if they're losing sight of that, well, then the chances are they're going to— if they run into a wall, if the economy changes, then performance will decrease. So the key, particularly in the startup arena or in organizations like we're we're all a part of, where we're going through some really intense economic change. You want to make sure that when someone hits a wall, they just keep going through it.

Yeah.

And what allows someone to have those drives? And for me, it is really an understanding of where someone sits, an appreciation that they will be supported, a sense of community, meaning that they can talk to anybody on the team at any time and share these thoughts. that the competition comes from within. Everyone in sales is going to be competitive, but let's make sure that we're not artificially forcing some things to the detriment of the organization. Let's make this a fun team where you're all professional athletes and you're all out there going out there, you know, you all want to be the best you can be, but there is a sense of community. There is a sense of, hey, we're all on the same team. We want everyone on this team to be successful. And once you find ways of doing that, whether it means how you manage conflicts over certain accounts or how you recognize awards when there's an imbalance in terms of inbound opportunities across different territories, that sets the tone. That sets the tone for the culture, and that allows people to start feeling comfortable in, all right, this is really on me. To go out there and do it. If you just tell someone you're out there, you know, this is your quota, you go do it, otherwise you're gonna get fired, chances are you're gonna get a couple people who are successful and you get a lot of people who are really scared and, you know, thinking, double thinking, triple thinking things and not being as effective as they can.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, Mustafa, I mean, these are great insights, by the way, and, uh, I know, uh, we would probably talk for next, uh, another, uh, 1 hour for sure on the enterprise sales, but really appreciate your time. And there are so many insights that you provided today. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Yeah, thank you, Mustafa.