Jason Feifer's Path to a Resilient Mindset

Hey, before we get started today, I just want to say thanks for tuning in and if you enjoy listening to the podcast, do me a favor and leave a review. First of all, I'd appreciate your feedback. And secondly, your input will allow us to connect with and inspire more people. And with that, let's get started.

We're worried about a linear progression. Something bad happens, therefore the next thing that is going to happen will also be bad. Therefore, the next thing that will happen will be bad. Right, but that's not actually how life works, right? Life is not linear. The next thing that happens isn't always just the logical progression of whatever was set in motion. Life is reactive. You make decisions that might not have made sense for you before that now do make sense.

This is Reclaim in Advance, a social impact project where we host vulnerable conversations with modern day high performers exploring the lowest points of their personal or professional life, how they recovered, and their life on the other side of hardship. My hope is that you'll realize you aren't the only one who goes through tough times and there is a way out. Through these conversations, you'll gain inspiration from the grit and honesty of our guests and you'll learn practical tools and science backed frameworks that empower you to take on new challenges, regardless of how difficult they may seem at first. So if you're ready to join in, let's get started. Jason Pfeiffer is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, a keynote speaker, podcast host, and author of Build for Tomorrow, and I met Jason while I was taking my kid to an open gym class here in Brooklyn. And that's how I was able to get involved with Entrepreneur magazine. He's a friend, a mentor, and I'm glad to have him here on today's show. Let's dive in. Jason. How are you today, Terry?

I'm doing well.

That's good. I remember the last time that I interviewed you for a podcast, I forgot to turn my camera on and you were so polite. You didn't mention the whole time, oh.

I don't remember that.

Yeah, well, I didn't remember to turn my camera on. A lot of laughs this year. So I'm glad to be here in person with you today.

You know, I feel like you just work with what you've got. That's my general M.O. so if someone shows up, I take whatever they have shown up with.

Yeah, I dig that you're good at improvising and meeting people where they're at, so I appreciate that, but just get some background on you. I clearly Know who you are. So who is Jason Pfeiffer?

Oh, who is Jason Pfeiffer? Well, Jason Pfeiffer, professionally, is the. So I'm the editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine, generally, the thing people know me by. I've had a long career in media, and being at Entrepreneur was a real turning point in my life in that it gave me a new way to understand my work and who I could serve. I had always been. I had been a magazine editor. I started as a newspaper reporter, and then I became a magazine editor. I moved to New York. I'd always dreamed of living in New York. And when I got to Entrepreneur, which was in 2015, I really thought of it as a media project. And then in 2016, I became editor in chief, and people started inviting me onto podcasts like this. And at the time, I was so deeply uncomfortable with what people expected of me and the way that they saw me, which is to say they thought I was an authority, and they were treating me like an authority, like I was gonna show up and I was gonna have ideas for them, and I had no ideas for them. I was a guy who made magazines, and I felt completely fraudulent being in front of people and proposing myself to be some expert in entrepreneurship. And I remember there were a lot of times where somebody would have me on their podcast and they would introduce me along the lines of, we've got Jason Pfeiffer. He's a thought leader in entrepreneurship. And I would try to reel it back in. Well, I'm not really a thought leader, and I'm really more of a storyteller. I'm a media guy. And so I don't really have advice, but I can share advice that other people get. And it was awful. It was just like falling downstairs, you know? Like, I just. I was undercutting the reason that people had me there. And my. I was telling this to my wife, and she said. She said, well, you know, if they want you to be a thought leader, then be a thought leader, which is a stupid term. I hate thought leader, but I don't even think people use it anymore. But she was right. She was right in that if people expect me to be a thing, then why not rise up to that occasion? Why not fulfill the vision that others have of me and see what the opportunities are on the other side of that. It took me a long time to find the confidence to do it and to figure out, well, who am I to people? What do I have to say? What can I stand behind? That was a project years in the making, but going through it transformed the way that I think of myself. It created infinite new business opportunities. I mean, now I'm. I have two books, one of which I did with my wife, the other which is a business book called Build for Tomorrow. I travel around, I speak a lot, I advise startups, I'm building some companies of my own. I write a newsletter and make podcasts and whatever. Anyway, I make a bunch of stuff and I hope that some of it is useful and in service to people. But that was a thing I had to learn to do and that I was uncomfortable doing until I found my way to do it in a way that felt honest and that was at the right intersection of what I felt like I had to offer and what I felt like people needed from me. And that's a hard intersection to find.

All right, well, thank you for that. And that's very aligned with the theme of this podcast, which is telling stories and in this case, challenging stories that you've had in your personal or professional life. So when you feel ready, we would love to hear that story.

Yeah, can I just sit in silence for 10 minutes first? So, yeah, so what you're prompting for here is just like, what was the biggest, hard, defining moment? Right? So this was it for me. The big hard defining moment in my life was getting sued. I was sued in 2015. It was a totally frivolous, ridiculous lawsuit. But if you know anything about the justice system in America, anybody can sue for anything and the court will take it seriously. You will have to fight it. I could sue you, Terry, right now because I don't like the question that you just asked me. And you will have to pay money to a lawyer for what could be a crazy amount of time to fight this stupid lawsuit. So that's what I learned. And I learned this by getting sued by a wealthy, vindictive guy who just didn't like something that I said. And I'll leave the details of it aside, cause it's almost beside the point. But what you need to know is that it went on for five years. It was a shocking drain of my finances, an incredible strain on my family. I'm a really level headed guy. I don't get worked up about things very easily. I can't think literally of the last time that I was mad. Like mad. I don't generally feel much anxiety. I'm a really level headed person. And this was like, can't sleep, can't eat. And it went on for years. It was awful. So. But so much came out of it and I learned so much of it. So I don't know where you want to go from there. That's what happened.

That's a lot. What I'm curious to know is five years is a long time. And often when we have these setbacks in life, we think, oh man, if it wasn't for this thing, I'd be so much further ahead. Do you think this held you back or propelled you forward in your career?

So interestingly, it propelled me forward. And that's because I have a theory of life that has come out of reflecting upon this moment, which is that life is not linear. Life is reactive. By which I mean the reason that we are worried when bad things happen is because we're worried about a linear progression. Something bad happens, therefore the next thing that is going to happen will also be bad. Therefore the next thing that'll happen will be bad. Right. You know, I get sued. Let's just use the real example. I get sued because I get sued, my reputation is ruined, and then my finances are ruined and everything is being drained into this lawsuit. And then that creates a financial strain on my marriage. And then my marriage falls apart. And now my professional and my personal life are in ruins. And then what happens after that? And then, you know, and. But that's not actually how life works, right? Life is not linear. The next thing that happens isn't always just the logical progression of whatever was set in motion. Life is reactive. You make decisions that might not have made sense for you before that now do make sense. In my case, for example, the moment when I got sued, I had actually just left magazines and I decided to try my hand at being a full time freelance writer. I'd lined up with some freelance editing work. I was. I was in contract to write a, like a ghostwriter celebrity memoir. And I had a bunch of stuff I was really looking forward to and like, redefining my career. And this was before Entrepreneur magazine. Entrepreneur magazine actually at the time was a freelance client of mine. I was doing some freelance editing for Entrepreneur. And when I got sued, I became afraid of. Well, of being financially ruined. And I felt like this was not the time to be without health insurance and without a steady salary. And also our first son was five months old. So we were also now caring for an infant. And I thought I need stability. I was. I was ready to embark upon a life of no stability, of freelancing and of trying and cobbling things together. I thought I need stability. And Entrepreneur had actually been asking me to join the staff. And I Had been saying no because I didn't want it. I didn't want this. I didn't want to be inside of one organization. I was ready to do something else. But when I got sued, I basically, I felt like I needed to run undercover somewhere. And so that's the reason I took the job at Entrepreneur. I. You know, I mean, I'd like to say that it was. It was because I was, you know, just excited by the mission. But, like, that came later. Honestly, at the time, I just needed a job, and I was afraid. And that is the reactive moment. The first one, at least. Right. Because the next one was that I took this job at a. At a. At a magazine. And what I could have done is I could have continued a linear path. Either just I could have taken that job and then taken another job at another magazine and taken another job at another magazine, or I could have just thought about it in the narrow framework that I used to think of it. I'm there to do a media job, and I will fix the magazine and I will write stories. But at every juncture, there's an opportunity to react, to do something that is wholly different than what you would have planned to do, but in reaction to what just came before. And that is the thing. I think that that's the thing that had propelled me was this constant reaction. I was talking to some friends about this recently, Kelly and Peter, and they were telling me that they have a phrase that they use every time something goes bad in their career. And that is, we don't know if this is good or bad because it seems bad now. And if the story ended, I get sued and I die a week later. Well, the lawsuit was only a bad thing. There was no time for it to be anything else. But the thing is that if you're fortunate, life is long. There are years and decades left to live. And if that's the case, that's a lot of time for the bad thing to cause a reaction which can create a good thing. It doesn't mean that the bad thing was good. The bad thing still sucks. Being sued sucks. We can curse on this show. Go for it. I fucking hate everybody involved in that lawsuit. I fucking hate them. They are fucking awful people. I will always be angry about that. But some really good stuff came from it because. Because I reacted.

I want to talk about reactions, and I'll tell a story.

Sure.

I was. I was here in Brooklyn, and there's, like, this car, like, flying down the road, almost hits somebody. Almost hits, like, a pedestrian. And the guy who almost got hit, shoots back, it's okay, I've already forgiven you. And I was like, yo, that's like the best, like, fuck you ever. So this person was, like, programmed to have that reaction. Like, you don't just wake up necessarily having that in there. So I'm wondering, how have you been programmed to have, like, this more positive reaction to adversity? Does it go back to your childhood? Is it something you developed on the way? But, like, how is this, like, this ingrained in you?

Okay, well, first, like, why do I react that way? I react that way because what else are you gonna do? I mean, I, like, my general attitude is, like, doing something is better than doing nothing. You gotta do something. I remember when the pandemic began. And so here I am, I'm the editor in chief of this national business media title. And we had a decision that we had to make internally of how do we talk about this? Who are we to our audience right now? And we all agreed, talked about it internally, but I felt very strongly, certainly a driver of this conversation was we go positive. This is a moment of sheer terror. And when you read the news, it is nothing but awful. We're gonna go positive. Which is not to say we're gonna say, like, the pandemic is good, right? But instead, what we're gonna do is we're gonna focus on positive things that people are doing. How entrepreneurs are discovering new opportunities. What can you do now? I mean, I remember saying, look, when lots of people are in need, that means that they're in need of solutions. So, yes, you are being impacted, but also people need you, and they need you to come up with things. And that was the message that we took. And a lot of people were really appreciative of that. But I remember seeing comments when I would do an Instagram Live, or I'd get emails from readers, and occasionally they would. They would say, well, how could you be talking about what people could do at a time like this? Or, how could you be saying that positive things can come from this? And the answer that I had was, well, what the hell else is the other option to just sit around and just give up? To just say, well, things are bad. So I guess that's. It makes sense to me. It just fundamentally doesn't make sense to me. There's always something next. Unless we are at the true end of the world, unless we've reached an apocalyptic scenario and the whole world is going to end, then no matter what happens, something happens next, you're not at the End of the book, there's another chapter. So what's in the chapter? What happens next? Something has to. And you can take control of it. And I don't know, that's just always been my attitude. Where does it come from? I mean, I guess probably where it comes from for me. And look, I'm going to say this, but it's like the exact opposite could also be true for people. Right. For me, I came from a very stable home, great parents, very stable family, and, and my parents were really supportive of me. And. And as a result, I was able to take risks. My, my. You know, two of my defining moments in the earlier part of my career are both quitting jobs with an idea of what I wanted to happen, but no guarantee it would happen. So why was I able to do that? I look back on it now and I think the reason I was able to do that is because I knew that I had a support system underneath me, that if I needed some help making rent, that my parents were going to help. Not that I wanted to freeload off of them, but I wanted to quit this newspaper job and see if I can make it as a freelancer. That was the first time I did it. Or I want to quit this newspaper job and move to Boston and convince Boston magazine to hire me because I've been freelancing for them for years and there's a job opening and they're. They're dilly dallying on who they're going to hire and I want it to be me. These are the reasons I quit these jobs. And in both cases it worked out, but also I knew that in both cases, if it didn't work out, while I figured out what my next move would be, I had a supportive family and that was helpful and that enabled me to take risks. And I think the same has basically gone on throughout my career. I mean, not that I rely on my parents now for I can pay my own mortgage, but in that I just know I can take a risk. And I have a support system which now includes my wife, who's incredibly supportive, and my friends, who are incredibly supportive. And that emboldens me. But now it could be the opposite. Right? It could be that I grew up in a totally different family and, and by surviving some awful experience, I taught myself something about resilience that I then. Right. Like, you don't need to come from some one background to learn this, but it's certainly what I learned. Yeah.

It's funny because through this podcast, I realize how much of our behaviors actually do go back to our childhood. And then I'm like, I gotta be a better dad. And it's funny because even looking at you on social media, the way that you raise your boys, I'm inspired by it. Like, I remember at one point, I saw, like, one of your sons was like, had a cell phone charger plugged in, and it was like, in his mouth.

Oh, yeah.

And I was like, okay, that's hands off parenting. And you also mentioned, like, on the.

Week, I posted a photo of that on LinkedIn. And a lot of people told me that was dangerous.

I know. I was thinking it. I was like, I'll just text him. But also, you let your kids, I think you said if they wake up before you, they can grab their tablets and whatever snacks they want. So I tried that, too. And I'm like, the world didn't end.

The world's fine.

I can now sleep in on the weekends. Yeah, things are just going better. So I think sometimes we have these things stuck in our heads. It has to be this way, so on and so forth. But there is a benefit to taking risks, and sometimes you're forced to take a risk. I mean, you got sued. That worked out very well for you. I got fired. That worked out very well for me, too. So to your point, it's the reaction that really matters, because the thing happened, whatever it was, it happened. You can't do anything about that whatsoever, but you have full control over your reaction, and that's gonna impact everything that comes next.

Yeah, that's right. And oftentimes, the thing that's gonna come next is better in some way than what might have come, because it's gonna be informed by more life and because it's going to be the result of harder choices and closer looks. My wife just went through this in a much smaller way, but she's been working on this project for years, years and years. I'm so excited for it to come out, which is nowhere near right now. But anyway, whatever. It's a. Just to be vague about it for now. She's working on a. It would be categorized as a true crime podcast, and she spent years developing these sources. It's just an incredible crazy story. And she's working with this very accomplished production company, and it's going to be distributed by a giant company. Anyway, it's great. And a couple weeks ago, some key people who she needed to talk to for the story got spooked and pulled out, and they wouldn't talk to her. And they were key to the way that she was thinking about telling this story, and so she was freaking out. And we talked about it and we said, well, okay. I said to her, well, what? Like, they're gone. So the question is, what is the best version of this story that you can make with what you have? Which is a version of this mantra that I have for myself, which is, I will do the best work with the resources available. I love that phrase. I will do the best work with the resources available. I don't have all the resources. You don't have all the resources. At Entrepreneur, I'm very proud of the magazine we make. It's a really small staff. Could it be a more robust magazine? Could there be, however you want to define it, more ambitious reporting? Could it be more complex design or whatever? If we had more people, yeah. But you know what? We don't have more people. We have the people we have. And so let's make the best version that we can make with that and not sit around and try to compare what we do to what we could do if we had double the budget. Because we don't have double the budget, so why even think about it? And that was basically what I was telling her. I was like, look, okay, so they're gone. So what's the thing that you can do with what you have? Because you have a lot. You don't have that over there anymore. Those people are gone. They're not going to talk to you. What do you have? And it took her some time to think through it, and she talked to her team. She's got this team of producers. And then she realized, wait a second, there's a whole other area of this story that they hadn't been thinking about because they were so distracted with the stuff over here that they no longer can do. And they think it's a much better story. I mean, basically, it's like there was a crime and they were going to focus a lot on the lead into the crime, but they realized that there's actually a fascinating, wonderful story to tell after the crime, and that is more available to them than the stuff before the crime. All the people who don't wanna talk is like, before the crime. And now she's really excited, and now she feels like it's actually a better project because this thing had happened. And one other thing to say on this is I had a conversation a while ago with Ryan Reynolds for the magazine, for Entrepreneur magazine. And one of the things I really loved that he told me was he really loves.

That was a very casual name drop. Be like, yeah, so all right, so the rock calls. I'm like, hold on, I'm talking to Ryan Reynold.

It's a perk of the job to be able to just chat with these folks. So Ryan was telling me about how he loves budget restrictions. And the reason he loves budget restrictions is because it always forces a focusing on the thing that actually matters in a project. The way he said it to me is he's like, look, if you have a movie with an infinite budget, how are you gonna spend that money? You're gonna spend it on explosions and aliens coming down from the sky, like the biggest stuff that you can think of. But why do people like a movie? It's not really for that stuff. They've seen that stuff. The reason they like a movie is because of the characters and the dialogue and the story. And you don't need budget for that. You just need to be smart. I mean, that was Deadpool for Ryan. They kept cutting the budget for Deadpool. The. Or whoever it was, the studio did not at all believe in that movie. And they just kept cutting the budget for Deadpool, which just forced Ryan and his team to be smarter and smarter about how they were doing that story. Of course, they created something that was a massive hit. And I found that to be true in basically every way myself. That when you cut down what I have available to me, it doesn't stop things. It just forces me to be smarter about the decisions that I make and that ultimately can lead to good.

I like the way you're framing this because a lot of our listeners, they've had some challenges in their life and basically what you're saying is, okay, what can you do with the resources you have left to tell the best possible story of your life or create the best possible of your story of your life? And I appreciate that. But you and I are very solutions oriented and we're talking about wives. So I'll talk about my wife often when she's upset about something. Nothing huge. You know, it could be something about work. I just hop right into, into solutions. And that's not always helpful because often people aren't ready for solutions. They want to be, you know, seen, heard, recognized, so and so forth. So I think a lot of our listeners are thinking, okay, this all sounds great, but I'm stuck somewhere and these guys are on the other side of it already. What would you say to them instead of just solutions, which we've talked about already, to get them out of that place where they're stuck and then guide Them towards a solution that we're itching to tell them.

So I think that you. Look, part of the reason that you're stuck is because you look at every option. Every option is problematic. Right? I mean, like, when you're feeling stuck and I felt stuck. I mean, look, when I got sued, it's not like I got sued and then woke up the next day and said, I know what I'm gonna do, and I know how it's all gonna work. I had no idea. It took years. It was terrifying. I mean, the amount of money that I. That I. And my. It was just. And it didn't all work out on the lawsuit side, like, you know, in the end. I mean, in the end, it, like, went away. There was a. There was a great ruling that. From an appellate court because we had to appeal things over and over and over again. Where. Where they said that. They said that I was owed all my legal fees. I mean, frankly, we thought that they wrote that. That I was owed double my legal fees. It's kind of a confusingly written judgment at a loss for legal terms. But. But. But no, that was. I mean, it was incredible pain, Financial and personal pain. I mean, you know, it's like we had a lawyer friend tell my wife and I that we should seriously consider getting divorced so that she can house all of our assets in case I get completely destroyed by this. I mean, you know, these are like. These are hard things to contemplate. Yeah. So I didn't know how it was going to work out, but I just knew I had to make a decision. I had to do something. And I. You know, and the first of those decisions was, go get a job at Entrepreneur. Well, I mean, you know, some of the first decisions were legal decisions like, you know, how do we fight this? But. And where does the money come from? But then I took this job at Entrepreneur, and then I was at the job at Entrepreneur, and now it's like, okay, well, what's the next decision that I have to make? I make some other decision. But let me go back to. Let me go back to what I had said, if you're feeling stuck, and I certainly did at that time. I've felt stuck many times. You see options. You don't see no options. Something you could do, Right. I mean, if you're feeling stuck about something right now. And I said to you, well, what can you do? Which is a great Kara golden from Hintwater question, what can we do? Right? Like, don't tell me what I can't do. Tell me what it can do. You can do something. Something is available. It might not be the option you want. Something is available. I love that question, what can we do? Instead of what can we do? But if I ask you that question, you will have some answers in your head, and then you will probably. And the reason you're feeling stuck is because you will then instantly start thinking about the problems that all of those different directions create. Well, I can't do this because it'll create that problem. I can't do that because that's going to be a problem. So that's fine. That's fine. Because the question isn't, is this perfect? Nothing's perfect. The question is, is my new problem better than my old problem? And how I like to structure decision making is to realistically identify problems and then compare the solutions for those problems against each other. Which are the harder solutions? I'll give you an example. So I was standing at the swing set at a playground in Brooklyn maybe about a year ago. And as I'm sure you know, you go to a playground in Brooklyn and you're pushing your kid on a swing, and then there's like some other bored parent next to you pushing their kid on a swing. And sometimes you get to chatting. So I get to chatting with this guy whose name I don't remember, so we'll just call him Roberto. So Roberto starts telling me that he's going through the classic Brooklyn dilemma. The classic Brooklyn dilemma for anyone who doesn't live in Brooklyn is, do I stay here? That's the dilemma. Because it's expensive. And especially if you have kids, it only gets more expensive. And you are increasingly running out of space because wherever you are, your kids are getting bigger. Everything feels smaller. It was already small to begin with. You're either paying an absurd amount of money in rent or you just spent north of a million dollars for 750 square feet of real estate. It's just crazy. Crazy. So he's trying to figure this out. His wife really wants to move upstate, and there's some school that she really wants her kids to go to up there. And he really wants to stay here because that's where his friends and his network is. But also it's because it's where his business is. He's like a contractor or something, and it's all word of mouth. And he's established himself here. And they're stuck. And they're stuck because they just keep speaking the problems at each other, right? She's like, if we stay here, then it's Too expensive and, and the schools are bad and et cetera. And he's like, yes, but if we go, then I lose my business. And I. And so. And you're just speaking problems at each other. That's not useful because there's no way to measure those against each other. So I said to him, okay, do this first list out all the problems. What are all the problems for each of these decisions? So if you stay here, what are the problems? You know, too expensive school. If you go there, what are the problems? Could feel isolated, starting over socially, you know, business has to start over. Okay, now tell me what it would take to solve each of those problems. Okay, right, you can think your way through that. What would it take to solve each of those problems? All right, well, if we're staying and it's too expensive here, then to solve that problem, I need to make more money. And if I need to make more money, then I need to either rethink the work that I do or I need to something change about the business. Okay, if I'm going there, if I'm moving there, then okay, well, one of the problems is that I'm going to feel very isolated because I don't know people. So what would I have to do? All right, well, I guess I would have to join some clubs and just go through that. Now, which are the better problems? Now you have something to measure against. You're not just speaking problems at each other. You have laid out the problems, you've acknowledged the problems. They're all real problems and they all have solutions. They're not easy solutions, they're not fun solutions. Could be huge pain in the ass solutions, but the solutions, something solves a problem, right? So now that you see what it would take to solve all of these problems, you and your wife can sit down. I'm speaking now to Roberto on the playground. I'm like, you and your wife can sit down and say, which is the better set of problems? Which is the better one? No matter what we choose, it comes with problems. So which is the better problem? That's the only way to make a decision. That's it. Right, that's it. You acknowledge that problems exist. You can track your progress through problems. You don't look for a ideal solution because one doesn't exist. You just decide which is the problem that we would rather solve, and then you do it. And in doing it, guess what? It's going to create more problems and you're going to have to solve those problems too. But if you've made an Intentional decision about which problems to solve, which are the better set of problems for you, then you're on the path to creating something that you want.

It's funny because I'm listening to you as a podcast host, but now I think I want to move to Westchester County. You wouldn't be the first, because that is a problem that my wife and I are going through right now. But I think about you and how we met about six years ago, just a few blocks away from here.

Yeah. We're recording here in Park Slope, Brooklyn, right now.

And, yeah. And when I met you, I was like, holy cow, that's Jason. And, you know, still do hold you in such high regard. I appreciate that, but had no idea what you're going through in regards to this lawsuit. You just carried yourself so well.

Oh, yeah. And, yeah, that would have been. Yes, the lawsuit would have been going on.

Yeah. And that's what this podcast is about. Just showing our listeners, like, hey, you see this person who's, like, crushing it online? They're doing very well, but they went through some shit, too.

Yeah.

And if they made it through it, you can as well. So thanks so much for sharing your story of the shit you went through and inspiring our audience. And I know a lot of them are going to want to learn more from you, so what's the best way for them to do so?

Yeah, well, I really appreciate that. And I have to say, before I answer that question, it's an interesting point that you made, that when we met, I was going through that lawsuit, and probably by the time we met, I had done a halfway decent job of separating these things in my head where I would go about my life as if I wasn't being sued. And then there would be these moments that would come roaring back where I would have to be in court and I'd have to keep going back and forth from being a editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine, being invited to these things, and being treated as important to. Then, you know, like, defendant walks in, putting on. Yes, exactly. Like putting on a nice shirt and going into court and being just the smallest, smallest, most insignificant creature in this fucking hellhole of a place, you know, where, like, I mean, my experience of it was that literally zero people in that building care about you. The judges definitely don't care about you. I think the judges kind of loathe you, to be honest with you. The lawyers definitely loathe you. But you're stuck. You're stuck. You can't opt out. It's scary. It's scary to Have a system that just sucks you in and you can't do anything about it. Your literal liberty is just gone. It was awful. As you can tell, it informed a way in which I think about and understand the world now. And that is one in which I generally don't trust large systems anymore because of it. It left an imprint. I certainly don't trust the justice system at all. But I figured out a way over time to just move through the day, focus on the things that I could control and leave the stuff that I couldn't control to the times when I needed to engage with them. And that wasn't easy. But again, it's just like, what's the other option? You know, like which there's no, you don't have another option. You have to do that. And by the time it ended, I felt like I had like ingested, just moved through my system. And I had learned a lot about my own resilience, about my family's resilience, about my wife's incredible support. I mean, my wife is generally an anxious person. Oftentimes the dynamic is that I'm dealing with a lot of her anxiety. But we just switched roles. We just switched roles and then she was the stable, non anxious person who could just see clearly. And so anyway, when you met me, I was going through some, some version of separating those things out and becoming ever more clear eyed about the things that I can control in my life and how important it is to just focus on that and to throw all the rest of it out into the ocean. Just out there in the ocean with all the shit, you don't see it. Did you know you were trying to wrap this podcast up? But I'm just gonna say this one other thing. Did you know, have you seen, you've seen movies with, you've seen movies that take place on a boat and then like a giant wave crashes into the boat, right? Like this is like a common movie thing. So those waves, I looked this up. Those waves are called rogue waves. A rogue wave is a wave that's over 100ft high. And here is the craziest fact about rogue waves. This is a true thing. At any one time, including right now, as you and I are talking, and right now, at whatever time people are listening to this, whoever's listening to this, right now, at this moment, there are 10 of those around the world.

Holy shit.

That crazy. There are 10 of those around the world right now. These heaving, angry, loud, vicious acts of nature. And they are, they are there and nobody sees them, right? The Only witness is a fish. And they're huge. And they come and they go. And it's like the thing that I really like about thinking about that is these are when one crashes into a boat, there's a story to tell, but they happen all the time. Giant things happen all the time. And they don't always require our attention. They're not always things that we need to pay attention to. Doesn't mean that they're not big. They're big, but sometimes it doesn't require our attention. There's nothing that we could do by paying attention to it. So sometimes the big things, they just belong out in the ocean. The big thing in your life that you can't control, just throw it out into the ocean along with those hundred foot rogue waves. And at some point, at some point it'll come in, it'll come into shore and you have to deal with it. But then is the time to deal with it. So then you can set aside whatever else you're working on and devote your energy towards dealing with it, because it's here now and it requires dealing with. But what you don't want to do is spend all of this time and energy dealing with it when you don't have to deal with it. I mean, this is the crazy thing about the lawsuit, right? Like the lawsuit was a hellish five year experience, but I didn't have to deal with it every day. We'd file a motion and it would be very expensive. File a motion. It cost me tens of thousands of dollars and then nothing for months. And then I'm just waiting for a judge to make a dumb ruling on it. And what am I supposed to do in the meantime? I gotta move on. I gotta do something with my life. So that has to go out into the ocean and it'll come back. But for now it's gone. It's gonna be over there with the rogue waves and that's where it belongs. And I'm gonna focus on the things that are on shore. Cause that's where I stand. So that's what I learned. And so that's the moment that you met me in.

Amazing. Just hearing you unpack that. And I know we're gonna have another conversation about it. I do want to wrap this one up, but thank you for this.

Yeah.

Thank you for your transparency. Thanks for your guidance, thanks for your wisdom. And I'll ask again.

Yeah. Can you self promote? Can you self promote so we can be done with this? Yeah, sure. Look, it's real simple. I write a newsletter. It's called One Thing Better each week, One way to be more successful and satisfied and build a career or company that you love. I love it because it helps me formulate ideas. Some of the things that I said during this time together were things that crystallized while I was writing the newsletter. So I would suggest that you go check the newsletter out. Just go to onethingbetter Email. Onethingbetter Email. That is a web address. You just plug it into a browser, one thingbetter Email and you can sign up and you know, whatever. I have a whole bunch of other stuff like a book, but you can just learn about it all through there. I'd rather you just go to the newsletter anyway. Thanks, Terry.

Thank you, Jason. It's been great. I appreciate it.

Yeah.

And that's our show for today. And if you're looking for more tools and tactics to help you level up and overcome setbacks, head over to Terryrice co Reclaim, where you'll gain access to two free resources. The first is the High Performance Playbook, where I share my top performance techniques. You'll also gain access to the Forge system, a program that gives you the framework to create a powerful vision for your life and the daily habits needed to make it happen. And if you're interested in joining the Reclaim and Advance movement, here are a few ways to get involved. First, subscribe and leave a review. This is the best way for us to spread the word to new people. Second, if you have a favorite takeaway from this episode, please take a screenshot and share your takeaway on social Tag me at Terryrice so I can see it and share as well. And lastly, this one's pretty simple. Just do one random act of kindness. It doesn't matter how big or small, but this is your chance to start a ripple effect that can have a positive impact on those around you, including yourself. And remember, success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It's the courage to continue that counts. I hope you'll continue on this journey with me and I'll see you next time. Reclaim in advance is hosted by me, Terry Rice. Megan Dome is our managing director, and our editor is Dan Lardy. Thanks for listening.