Validating Your Business Idea With Pat Flynn

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To me, success as an entrepreneur is freedom, right? It's that freedom.

Today we're talking to Pat Flynn. He's helped millions launch their business. He'll teach you how to validate your business idea, get valuable audience research and land your first customer. This is the launch your business podcast because we know starting a business is challenging, but it doesn't have to be confusing. Each week we'll give you the tactical advice and the necessary tools to scale your business without feeling burnt out. I'm Terry Rice, business development consultant and staff writer here at Entrepreneur magazine. Let's dive in. Today we're talking about making sure your business idea is viable. And I firmly believe that entrepreneurship is a good idea for most people. Even if you're just doing it as a side hustle, you get the freedom, time and resources to pursue fulfillment on your own terms. But although entrepreneurship is A good idea. You also need to have a good business idea. That's just kind of how the world works, Right? And it's super important to spend a lot of time here because I've come across so many people who are bright, capable, and willing to roll up their sleeves to put in the work. But at the end of the day, their idea just wasn't viable. And sure, there are some natural barriers that exist. Maybe there's a high startup cost or some industry red tape that will take you forever to get through. That's all part of the journey. But there are some avoidable challenges that we want to look out for. And it's pretty basic. Making sure your business solves a problem for a defined audience. That's it. If you can just check that box, you'll know you're at least off to a good start and won't end up second guessing yourself as you encounter various challenges along the way. Okay, so how do you do that? Well, fortunately, today we're joined by the guy who literally wrote the book on how to make sure you have a good business idea. Pat Flynn is the author of will it fly? How to test your next business idea so you don't waste your time and money. He's also the host of two podcasts, Smart Passive Income and Ask Pat, which combined have over 70 million downloads. And one of the biggest things that I admire about Pat is his commitment to empowering others as they start their own business. Let's get into it. So, Pat, I've seen so many entrepreneurs with a good idea, but they just don't know where to start. And as a result, they remain stuck. So let's say your best friend wants to start a business and you think they would be great at it, but they have a, we'll call it a self limiting belief in regards to moving forward. What would you say to them?

So if I had a friend and they were interested in starting a business, Terry and I knew that they could do it, but they were kind of questioning themselves or, you know, they had said it, you know, for several months in a row, but they haven't taken any action yet, I would kind of just go, hey, well, what's stopping you? And try to get that truth, because sometimes we don't even know what that is. And you might need some outside help to kind of gauge, well, where are the faults? And so I would start there. And for everybody, it's different. It might be, well, I'm just scared of failing. I'm just, you know, I don't actually Think I'm qualified to do this? Or I tried to, and it was very difficult. So I don't even know where to go from here. And then I could guide them in that direction. I think this is why mentorship and things like that are really important, because you can have somebody on the outside kind of see what's going on on your inside. It's very hard to read the label when you're inside the bottle.

Okay, so you start by getting this. This outside perspective. Then what? What's the next step?

Then my next job would be to go, okay, well, what might their next step be like, their literal next step that we could put the blinders on and just focus on. Right. Cause sometimes it could be so overwhelming to feel like you're starting something new and there's a million steps ahead. Well, let's just focus on that next one. And I like to do what's called just in time learning, where whatever that next step is, that's the only thing I'm learning about. And that's what I try to have other people do too. And in many cases, the first thing I want people to do when they're thinking about starting a business is. Is to talk to people that business is relevant to. Who are you serving? And if they can't even describe who that is, well, then we know that's where we need to start. Well, who is it that you're serving? Who do you want to help? And if they say, well, I want to help everybody, well, then there's an even bigger problem, because truly successful businesses don't help everybody. They help a certain somebody, and they become the solution for that certain somebody. So when you niche down, as I often say, the riches are in the niches. That's when it becomes much easier, because then you can go, okay, well, who am I serving? And then go have conversations with them. Try to find them online, offline. Put yourself in situations, immerse yourself in that space, become one of them so that you can understand truly and empathize. What are they needing help with? What are their biggest challenges right now? Because when you understand that, everything else becomes easier. The actual products you create, how you talk to them, the marketing, the sales, copywriting, all this other stuff just seems to fall into place when you truly understand the sort of brain space of the person or people who you're trying to serve.

Yeah, that just in time learning approach is crucial because I've noticed people tend to stockpile just in case information, and it just takes up time, which prevents them from making real Progress. I always say clarity is the precursor to confidence. So that definitely aligns with what you're saying. And along those lines, your book and methodology is called Will It Fly? Can you break down what that means for us and how that might have changed since 2020?

Yeah. So the Will It Fly methodology, Terry, is the way that one can help confirm whether or not a business idea that you have is actually worth pursuing. I know a lot of people who want to start a business. They try to keep it secret and they kind of build the whole thing. They spend a lot of money, maybe even their life savings, and they spend all this time only to launch it and have it fall flat or have it realize that, okay, well, there was something already better than that out there, or what have you. So it's really important to do this process. And it starts with, number one, understanding who is it that you're serving first. Right. What are their problems, pains, needs, desires. And once you kind of understand what they're going through, then even before having conversations with them, you can kind of find what I like to call the market map. Meaning in this market, in the space that you're getting into, much like how you would if you were traveling somewhere, you'd want to see a map so you can figure out the lay of the land, what's there, what landmarks are there, who's there already, and where might you be able to land your plane in a way that, that still continues to serve that area, yet not either be too competitive with somebody or just kind of a rehashing of what somebody else is already doing? So this market map exercise is very tangible and something we could all do right now, even if you already have a business. In fact, when I've run people through this exercise who already have a business, it often surprises them because they're realizing that there's a lot of parts to this that they haven't even really realized yet. And this is why it's a huge advantage if you're just starting out now. Because if you're just starting out now, you might think, oh, I'm too late or I'm too small, or this is going to be hard. Well, it's going to be hard, but you can make it easier because you're smaller, you have more of an opportunity to connect and see things from a bird's eye perspective before you land. So what this market map exercise IS is a three part process where you find the three Ps of this target market. The first P is discovering all the places, where are the people who in this target market are, where do they exist, what places? Online, offline communities, websites, podcasts, social media channels, et cetera. Where are they? Make a column in a spreadsheet that lists all those places. The second column is a list of all the people who have already spent time to earn the trust with that audience. So these are, yes, people who might overlap with those websites and whatnot, but also the top social media profiles. Who are people following on YouTube, who are the top LinkedIn accounts, who are people talking about related to this space, who are already the go to resources. Make a list of all those. And when you see that list, I don't want you to go, wow, look at all the competitors I have. I, I want you to think about this list as, wow, look at all the people who have, number one, proven that this market is actually existing and works. But number two, also potential partners or people that you could collaborate with, people who you could work together with, who you could serve first and potentially be rewarded from. And then the third list would be the list of products. And you can even write the fourth p, which is the prices of those products there, too. That'll give you a sense of, well, what is being offered to this space already? What kinds of things are they buying? What kinds of things are they saying about those things? So you can look at Amazon reviews, for example, to go even deeper into this, to see what people like or don't like about certain things. And it gives you a sense of what the prices are about, what people are paying for a certain thing. And just that exercise alone, just kind of getting a lay of the land of what's out there is going to open up your eyes to so many things. In fact, this is the moment where a lot of people who run their idea through this market map, they go, wow, I don't want to do this idea anymore, because I don't like this space. Or it just doesn't feel right anymore now that I've dove it into it. And that's actually a great thing to realize now before you actually spend all this time and money and effort later. So this is what we're trying to do. We're creating essentially litmus tests or trying to get little green lights to move on to the next step, to move on to the next step and take an iterative approach so that when we, when we get to a red light, if you will, we can go, okay, something didn't work out between the last green light and this red light. What is it? Does this mean I need to walk away or does this mean maybe my messaging was incorrect or what?

Okay, we're going to hop into a quick break here, but when we come back, Pat is going to tell you how you can launch your business and land your first customer. Let's take a quick moment here to talk about chatterboss. Chatterboss is a company that helps entrepreneurs make more money, save time and avoid burnout by providing top notch executive assistance. And I got to tell you, I've been using the service for the past several months now and I have no idea how I got by without them before. My assistant, Megan handles everything from prepping my newsletter, designing social media posts, sending out invoices, and even finding local activities for my four kids. But here's one of the most important things. She's not just an order taker, she's also a thought partner who presents new ideas and even challenges some of my bad ones. But here's what makes chatterboss as a company so unique. You have one assistant who can handle your entire remote team. This includes other specialists within the ChatterBoss network as well as independent experts that can be found elsewhere. But either way, you have one point of contact who knows you, your business and can anticipate your needs while you're focusing on other high impact activities. Get started today and save $50 off your first month by heading to chatterboss.com launch that's chatterboss.com launch okay, we're back and our guest is Pat Flynn. His methodology is called Will it Fly? It's a great way you can confirm whether or not your business idea is worth pursuing. But it's not just a way to see if you have a good idea. It also helps you realize if you're the right person to pursue that idea. And as you've heard, it involves a lot of research. So if you don't enjoy doing that research, that's a good sign. You probably would enjoy running a business based on your idea. And that's fine. You've just saved yourself a lot of time and frustration and you can restart the process with a different idea. But assuming it's a go, Pat is now going to share how you can go from idea to execution and even land your first customers.

So from the market map, this is where you then now go to those. Remember the places that we listed? Go to those places and immerse yourself in that space and start having conversations with those people. Start understanding what they might need help with. Ask them questions like what are you struggling with right now? Or what are your what's your number one biggest challenge related to this? Or what's something that you attempted to do but it didn't go so well? And why do. Why do you think it didn't go so well? And again, just those conversations alone are going to give you another layer of understanding within this community, such that you can then eventually, just by almost magic, sometimes you start to find potential problems that you could solve because people are talking about them, they haven't been solved yet or not in the way that you could potentially solve them, and you could come up with something that you can then test. Now you don't just like go, okay, I found a problem, I'm going to create the solution now, and boom, I'm going to launch it to the world. No, you still utilize those places and those people potentially that you could partner with to get some more feedback to start to build your prototype. There's a lot of p words here, but you could build a prototype of a solution and go back to those people that you connected with and say, hey, you had this problem. Well, I built something that I think is going to help. What do you think of this? Is this kind of the thing you're looking for? Is this what you imagine? What would you say to something like this? You're not selling it to them yet, but eventually you will. Eventually you're going to have them potentially either pay to get early access to something or get on an email list or some sort of transaction that has them vote with more than just their word that this is something that they would actually want or purchase from you. And the best vote is a vote with their dollar. So a pre sale, for example. I did this with a physical product. I pre sold it, launched it on Kickstarter, and it did very well. You can do this with an online course. I did this with an online course in 2017. I pre launched a podcasting program, had about 100 people come through paying for something that didn't even exist yet. And guess what? Those people got special access to me and I built the course with them. So by the end of the course creation process and they've already gone through it as I was building it, I have now these amazing testimonials of people who have gone through the process who now can be used in the marketing messaging when I promote it to the public now. And all those people felt special. And everybody coming in will know this is a real thing that has already helped people. And as you can see, this is a very sort of in the trenches way of building a business with the people who are going to be your customers. This is what is the definition of audience driven. All decisions are being made as a result of what you find out by the audience that you are serving. And that's such a beautiful way to progress.

So it's clear that being audience driven helps you avoid mistakes because you're building solutions that are clearly aligned with your audience's needs. And since you're already in conversation with your audience, you can ask them if they'd be interested in trying out that new solution. But from my perspective, here's one of the best parts. This will help you avoid imposter syndrome, because that's so common, right? But guess what? You won't need to fake it till you make it, because they know you're still making it. So problem solved. But even with this framework, why do you think some people might fail still? And how can we avoid that same mistake?

I think a lot of people fail because we are expecting results to happen overnight and because we don't put in the work. And you got to put in the work upfront. And I know you hear about people who just landed on something and they're now millionaires overnight. Well, we're hearing about it because it's news, and it's news because it doesn't happen very often. Right? You have to realize that you got to put in the work, you got to grind. And as Gary Vaynerchuk says, you have to have micro hustle, but macro patience, micro hustle on the little things, those conversations and the testing and the prototyping and the different iterations and getting out there and making connections. Micro hustle with that. But then macro hustle with the fact that knowing that you're going to have to do this for a while and then understand that the results are going to come. You know, they're delayed, they're a little bit later. But you can increase the chances that positive results are going to happen if you use your audience that you're building to serve as the people who are going to serve you and to build something for them. It's a beautiful feedback loop. Right? And so I think if you're expecting results to happen overnight, you're already failing. You have to know that you have to put in the work to do this. And secondly, you have to realize that you have to fail. The whole purpose of this will it fly strategy is the fact that you are going to get to red lights. You might launch the product that people said that they wanted and it doesn't work out well. That doesn't mean it's a failure. It just means, okay, that's a stopping point. You go back to the last green light where they said they wanted something, and now you have to find and do some research and investigate to go, okay, well, why didn't this thing that I created not work for everybody who said that they would want it? And you can discover through those conversations, go back to them and say, hey, you know, I created this thing. You said you wanted it, but you didn't. Why? Oh, it's too expensive is what. What they might say, well, if that's the case, that's always just code word for the value that you presented. Wasn't what I thought it was going to be, or the value exchanger was not up to what I thought it was, or it's just a positioning problem, if you will. So that's what that means. Or they might say, well, I was a little bit confused about exactly what this was. Great. Now you make it more clear the next time you promote it. So again, unlike what most people will do, which is they build something, they climb to the rooftops and they yell, here's my product. And then there's like nobody there. Well, they don't even have anybody to go to to understand why nobody bought it. So again, micro hustle, macro, patience.

Okay, we're gonna hop into a quick break here and when we come back, Pat is going to share how to know that you're onto something and you've bu Sustainable business. Just get started. If you've ever looked for tips on launching a business, just get started seems to come up a lot. And while that's vaguely motivational, it does not provide any real direction. Because the next logical question for anyone would be, well, how do I get started? What specifically should I do? Well, if you're looking to quickly start a business without the confusion, risk and pressure of doing something entirely new, I have got a solution for you. It's called the Solopreneur's Fast Track, a step by step process on how to start a business using the skills you already have and actually enjoy using. So let's say your favorite part of a previous job was email marketing. You'll learn how to start a business offering other companies advice on how they can improve their email marketing. Or maybe you are really good at integrating complicated tech tools. You can help other organizations do the same thing without the need to bring on a full time hire. So the main point here is that everything you need to start a business is already within you. You don't Need a cool website or fancy tools. And by completing the course, you'll also discover a simpler approach for attracting clients without using complicated funnels or cheesy sales tactics. You can finish it over a weekend and start making money in as little as 30 days. You'll gain the clarity and confidence you need to start your business and receive a one page business plan so you can immediately apply what you've learned. Get started today and receive a 20% discount by heading to terryrice co. Fast. That's terryrice co. Fast. Micro hustle macro patience. That is such a good takeaway because if you have too much hustle, you'll burn out. And beyond that, you'll project lack and scarcity to everyone you come across. But there are times when you need to hustle. Even if you're tired or have to make sacrifices. You also need that macro patience because sometimes you'll have to grind for a very long time before you see any real progress. And if you expect things to happen too quickly, you'll become discouraged or second guess yourself. But when do you know that things are working and that you have a sustainable business idea? Pat's gonna break that down for you right now.

Well, even before you launch it, you should know that you at least have some traction, if you will, from again, these conversations that you're having. If you're having conversations with people and this idea that you have doesn't match up or it doesn't really feel like it belongs, then, well, you're still getting traction, you're understanding that that's not a good idea, let's move on to another one. Or dive deeper into these problems and challenges so that you could solve those problems and challenges. So you should have traction even before you even create your product. You should be creating your product so excitedly because you know this is the thing that they need help with. Again, removing the guesswork is really what the game here is. And when you remove the guesswork, your confidence will come through. And when your confidence comes through, when you sell this thing and show it and share it and have people go through it, it's going to come through on their side and it's. And everybody wins, right? We want to do this in a way where everybody wins. And that starts with you really honing in on solving problems, making things easier, removing inconveniences, or as I like to call little frictions in a person's life. How might you do that? That's where you have initial traction. Traction also comes on the whole sort of grand scheme of things. After A while, I think that you can have successful launches, but then you still might feel bad because you've heard of other people who've had bigger launches and you're like, oh, how did they do it? And I didn't do it. Here's the thing. If you want to get started and you're launching your business, start small so that you can prove these things not just to your market, but also to yourself to gain that confidence. One, get one customer, one result. Just start there. It makes everything so much easier. Get one person, one result. You'll then have a testimonial, a proven way of doing something. You'll, you'll, you'll. It's almost like a petri dish. A little spot, a little space to experiment with. And if things get out of control there, well, thankfully it was just only with one person. And when you use the next experiment or do the next petri dish, then you'll have that much more information that you can use to make that experience a little bit better and have things not get out of control. So once you find the solution that works, though, you take that pipette, you take that, and you reproduce it elsewhere, right? And that's how it works. So in my experience, talking with people, when people compare themselves to other people, it's always a bad thing. It never is a good thing. You can get inspired by others and motivated by them, but you have to realize that you're in a completely different timeline than somebody else. You have completely different experiences, completely different backgrounds, complete different education, complete different thoughts and personalities. So you cannot compare your pathway to somebody else's. You have to compare your pathway to where it was last week, to where you were a month ago, to you versus you a year ago. And just make sure you're making incremental improvements there. And again, if even 1% incremental improvements over time turn into exponential growths, just like James Clear talks about in his book Atomic Habits. So always try to make those incremental improvements over time. But if you were to go, pat, okay, well, sure, I'm going to launch my business, but tell me when. Generally can I feel like this is a real thing that's going to take off, because I promise you, you're even going to have that first customer. You're going to have a great launch and still feel like, well, I don't even know if this is real. It's so different for all of us. We're used to working 9 to 5. And then here's this, like, weird ethereal thing called the Internet that we're building a business off of. And it just doesn't even feel real even when the money's coming in. It took me about a year and a half to get to the point where I felt like, wow, this is what I'm going to be doing, and I'm going to. I believe in it. And I'm not doubting my decisions anymore to go down this route, because you will doubt your decisions. But I think that's all just, you know, your, you know, reptilian brain, fearing the unknown. Right. Because there might be something like there on the other end that could eat you. But the truth is, like, there's so much great over there on the other end. And that nervousness that, that, that, that, like, butterfly in your stomach, that's all a sign that this is something amazing that you should lean into that. And that's actually what I lean into now. If I'm doing something and I'm not a little bit nervous about it, I actually know I'm not pushing myself hard enough. Because all the growth that you'll have as a business owner, a new business owner especially, is going to be outside that comfort zone. So if you are playing it safe, you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough. And that combined with some either mentorship or masterminds or friends around you who are doing the same thing that you can all lean on each other for. That's the formula. That's the formula.

Lots of great takeaways there, but a few things stand out. First, I really like your point about just starting small and then delivering on the promises you make, because when you're first starting out, there's so many things you can do, which is why it's so easy to get overwhelmed. So thanks for that. And we got a solid answer in regards to how long it takes to feel like you've got something going. And I agree, about 18 months is a good timeline for gauging whether or not your business is working. But look, before we let you go, I'd love to get an idea of what success means to you as an entrepreneur.

Right. It's that freedom. It's not a certain amount of money. It might take money for you to have and open up those possibilities. But to me, success is having the ability to create what I want to create, when I want to create it, and for who I want to create it for. And it's the ability to take time off on a Tuesday to go to Target midday when everybody else is at work, because that's just when it's most convenient for me and there's nobody in the store and I can go and find the Pokemon cards as soon as they can come out. So it's like, that's success to me. And it's the ability to then have time and space to relax as well. Success to me is not hustle, hustle, hustle for 12 hours a day and then going to sleep and rinse and repeating. That's my definition. I know of what it's not. For some people, that is a definition of success because that's their definition of success. And I think it's a very inherent thing that we each have to define for ourselves. And that's really important because if you just base your success off of what somebody else is doing, well, then what are you doing this for?

I agree that freedom can't be understated, and I want you to be able to enjoy that freedom without worrying about sustainability. So that's what we're all about here, giving you the actions, tools and mindset to thrive even in the most challenging situations. But one of my favorite quotes is knowledge uninvested in labor is wasted. So block off time on your calendar to apply what you've learned and I'll see you here next week. Apply what you've learned on today's show. You'll find the show notes and more resources at TerryRice co. Podcast. Again, that's TerryRice co. Podcast, and the best way to support this podcast is by subscribing, telling a friend, and leaving a review. Also, you can get more tips by following me on Instagram @TerryRice or follow me on LinkedIn. This episode was produced by Josh Wilcox of Brooklyn Podcasting Studio and edited by Dan Lardy. Special thanks to my wife, Dominique, for keeping our kids relatively quiet as I recorded. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.