The Scary Guy Podcast - Season 1 Episode 3

The hard part. You don't eliminate hate with hate.

Hate.

This is The Scary Guy podcast.

Are you going to do a proper introduction or not? Would you want me to do this?

That is proper as it gets for me. I mean, you can go ahead. Listen, you could go ahead and do that. The problem is, I'm going to tell you, Gary, the problem is with Michael McCormick Williams. No, I got to I'll say that. Rock on!

Yeah, rock on!

Um, he's a good friend of mine and I love him dearly, and I only know him as Michael McCormick. And I've been to his, his university and did some work there, and he's been over here and hung out with Catherine and I on many occasions. And so it's hard for me to introduce somebody that is a very dear friend to me, so why don't you introduce him?

Okay, well, I think we've established now that we are talking to Michael McCormick Williams. So that's the first 10 minutes of our podcast down now. Yeah, and we've established that 3 names is actually okay, otherwise we'd be forever calling you The Scary Guy.

Okay, excuse me.

So 3 names is fine. How come you can do 3 names but everybody else, you pare them down to 2?

Well, I've only— I don't have any name.

Are you just—

what the fuck? I think the funny thing is, is Scary's never called me a proper name before. That's true.

I've never called you nothing civil.

Yeah, nothing civil. So that was the shocking bit. I'm happy that he can remember two names, okay?

Anyway, Michael McCormick Williams. Go ahead, Scary.

So Michael is a senior lecturer in communication at the Fachhochschule Vorarlberg. It's the University of Applied Sciences in Dornbirn, Austria. Nice to meet you, Michael.

Nice to meet you too, Gary, and Scary.

So as a lecturer in communication, is that what drew you to Scary? The use of words as communication?

Well, as I said before, I mean, he did come, you guys both came to the university and I'm like, hey, I really have to take advantage of this. This is so unique. And so I grabbed my two little girls, Kate and Elena, and I took them to see Scary. And they've been for— we have all been forever changed. So I think after that, I think, I mean, then we lost touch. I think Scary, we've known each other, what, over 10 years?

Yeah.

But we lost touch. And then we got— when his brother Tim passed, then I sent my condolences. And then we got in touch again. And then we just started you know, uh, staying in touch.

Yeah, I think I invited you over.

Yeah, yeah, and I've been over many times because I have the tattoos to prove it. So you've been branded.

You also went through some training, which was really important too.

Yeah, yeah, the one-on-one training was—

before you get to the training, before we delve straight back into the training, I just want to take you back to the first time that you came across Scary Guy. So Did you see the film on TV? Did you see something on the news or did you just see the advert?

I just got an email and said The Scary Guy and I'm like, I have nothing to lose. So I saw him, but what I took away from it was it just really resonated with me.

Which bit?

I think that just, well, I mean, teaching communication for me, it's It's basically a sociological theory of structure and agency. And what Scary brought to the whole thing was basically taking those two things and making them coherent to an everyday layperson. And, but what really struck me was that, I mean, there were just some seminal truths that were coming out and how to treat people and how to take in information and these type of things. Uh, that, that it just resonated with me so much, you know, that I just, uh, you know, I, I took that into consideration in my, my teaching and also trying to deal with, you know, uh, my kids and, and people.

So was there something within your, your background, having said that you grew up in the United States, you moved to Austria, you've been around and you've lived in different places and, and integrated in different types of communities and learned obviously different languages. So have you found that communication and the way people behave is different in different places?

Yeah, to a certain extent. I mean, it's, it's after moving around so much, you, you get to, uh, you get to read people quite quickly in different cultures because you don't have, let's say you're in a, in a culture that you don't know the language. So then you have to go by other cues and other cues that, you know, their body language and, you know, tone of voice and this type of stuff. So people, people, I mean, do communicate differently. I think, I think, and the language does have a lot to do with it. It does form your thinking. And that's, I think that's a key component of what, you know, Scary Guy is doing. You know, is that this really does make inroads into your, you know, your thinking, you know, and words, as you said, words are energy and they really do have an impact. And so, and also this learned behavior. So you really have to unlearn that. And that's what really resonated with me because I'm in education and obviously I've learned some bad habits too. And so my students, and then so we have to meet somewhere. To make this a workable situation, we have to meet somewhere in the middle and have a symbiotic relationship.

So can you remember that after seeing Scary for the first time, then your first time back in your classroom, in your lecture theatre, can you remember the first thing that you either deliberately incorporated back into your teaching, or was there something you thought, do you know what, I must have inherited that from Scary, absorbed it, and it's come out naturally?

Well, I mean, I think maybe it just gave me license to be more of me, you know, since we're both from the States.

That's good.

So it's, you know, I think we're both from the States, so I think we do have this genetic disposition to be, as they say, out there. And it just gave me the license to do it because it was effective, you know, in the way Scary Guy goes about his, you know, gigs that he does or his performances or whatever, however you want, edutainment that he does, it does have— it has an effect, you know, it does pay off. And I said, and so I was like, okay, fine, I think I can be more effective that way instead of having these preconceived ideas of what education should be and things like that. I rather, you know, shake up the students a bit. And then I— and actually I do get— I mean, it does shock the students, you know, some of them, but they usually come around after a semester because they know it's not mean-spirited. It's just I have a very limited amount of time with them and I want them to do the best they can. And so sometimes to some of them it's shock therapy. Yeah, yeah. And to others it's like, yeah, it's— and it's all in contrast. I mean, the same with The Scary Guy. It's all within this context. You know, you have this certain context and he's bringing something left of center and it kind of awakes, awakens something in people.

Yeah.

Did you say left of center?

Okay. Right of center. Would you rather have that or?

I want to know what left of center means. I never saw myself in the middle.

I thought we were not going to get political here, but fine.

I never, I never saw myself in the middle of anything. Except for trouble.

Yeah, yeah, you know what, left to center, I mean, you came, you came at it as in a different—

off-center, off-center.

Yeah, yeah, weird.

Not gonna go there.

Okay, a lot of people label me weird though, that's okay.

Yeah, but that's a badge of honor.

Yeah, to me, if I don't get at least one weirdo thing out of it, I get that too, but But again, it's the end effect.

If it's just weird to be weird, that's self-defeating, but it's weird to get you somewhere. And that's the payoff. Could be.

It works.

Question for you, Scary, for our listeners that are discovering you over these podcasts and haven't come across you before. So you're going around the world and you're giving your presentation. And of course it's in English because that's the only language that you speak.

Yeah.

Um, and I've seen it, so I know that it still works across the world in English. Just for the listeners that are listening in these various countries, have you found any differences between the audiences that you've been to?

Yeah, I found the differences. Well, the most— the biggest differences I discovered were in universities and on the East Coast in America, believe it or not. That sounds—

now that Sounds weird.

No, but that, that was the truth. That was the truth. When I was in a New Jersey college, in New Jersey, um, giving a presentation to a lot of 20-year-olds, college students, and, uh, I had them stand up in the middle of my, my show and start screaming obscenities right, right in the middle of the show, right at me. That was the only time that's ever really happened is in America, in a higher education. All the other places I go, in Germany and Austria and France and Belgium and Sweden and all the other places, I've never ever had a response like that, ever. It was only in America, in higher education, that I've gotten really, really severe negative feedback during my show. But they were all done in English, and all the other countries seem to be fairly, um, I don't know if they're agreeing with everything I'm saying because they don't, they don't stand up and voice their opinion like they did in America. But I can tell you right now, they, um, they listen, they listen to everything we say. So that's, that's the difference. I think, I don't know. I never had any negative feedback in Austria when I was there.

Well, I think it's what, what people bring to the whole event. You know, if they have a certain agenda or they're, again, if they're stuck in a certain mindset or, you know, learned behavior, which you're trying to shake them out of.

Right.

And that doesn't, you know, I guess in that, that instance in that, uh, New Jersey university, they weren't willing to sign up to that, which is, which is okay. Then why, why are you showing up?

Probably to protest.

Oh, okay, great.

Yeah, I mean, they probably had it already in their minds that they were going to be negative about something, so let's go to this guy because he's going to be different anyway and he can't I've had it even said to my face in America that, well, a major media corporation had said it, that I didn't, I shouldn't be involved in teaching students in schools. That was, that was blatantly, um, spoken out loud by them in a news interview that I, that I can't, I should not be in front of students ever in classrooms teaching them anything. So I suppose maybe if anybody's going to be negative, they're going to go and be negative and find it, find a target. And that's exactly what they do. But I don't know that any other country's immune from that. I just don't think maybe they have the nerve to speak up or they don't speak English as well to be able to speak their, their dissent out loud. I don't know. I didn't get any of that in any of the other countries. I only got it in America. I got a little bit in the UK, but not a lot. The UK is pretty, um, open to listening to what I have to say.

It's interesting, is it? Because listening is a key element to communication. I'm assuming that's a key element that you teach, um, to listen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have, I have a discussion course in the second semester, and it is moderating, you know, uh, decision-making discussions, and basically it revolves solely around listening. It's not getting your point out there. Who's the alpha male? No, it's definitely group dynamics, but it's about listening. Because if you don't have that element, what's the point?

Well, what is it, Michael? Why is it so difficult? Because you're an expert in this field. Why is it so difficult for some people to listen? And they just want to talk and they want to get— maybe it's— they don't know, maybe you know, that they just haven't been heard, or what's the problem with society today? And I'm not saying everybody's got it, but I notice more and more everywhere I hear people speak, in news and social media, everybody's so quick to speak before they even know what they're talking about. And so what is it, in your opinion, do you think, where people have such a difficult time listening? And let's say it's, it's a different— it's a difference of opinion. People have different viewpoints, like you pointed out. But if you have a different viewpoint, and you know I have a different viewpoint, and you have a different viewpoint, and I know you do, the natural tendency is to not even hear the differences. So why is it that we're like that today, do you think?

And because I think we're living in this, to use a German word, Zeitgeist. We're living in this time of broadcasting. Everybody's broadcasting. Everybody has a YouTube channel. Everybody is profiling themselves on Instagram. Everybody's doing it. And I see that. I mean, I do it to a certain extent too. I have my own little corporate identity. Through different media platforms. And I see it with my kids. It's more about broadcasting than entering in a conversation. And that's the problem. And because, oh, I have a point to prove. And obviously, I mean, everybody knows this. I mean, when you're in a heated discussion, you're not listening to the person. You're thinking of what point am I going to get so I can cut them off at the knees? You know, you're not really listening. So you really have to catch yourself. And I do that. I mean, sometimes I'm in a heated discussion and I really just have to catch myself from lining up my next volley to really listen to that person. And listen, I mean, really, and that if you don't come back with a quick retort, then I guess majority of society thinks that's weakness. And it's not. We've lost the art of civil discourse. I think we've discussed this before. We have lost that art of entering into civil discourse with people who disagree with us.

Yeah, we're past it now, aren't we?

Yeah, well, I mean, we've lost the narrative on this one. We've lost the thread of— because this is how we see each other. We see each other as enemies. You know, and not like, you know, and you would think with all the scientific discoveries, especially with, you know, with the space exploration and stuff like that, hey, we're humans on the planet. We're not different nationalities. We're humans on the planet.

You know, we have more and we have more in common than we've got on the planet than we do that's different.

And it's almost, that's right. It's almost the smaller the planet gets because of the communication. I mean, look what we're doing now with, with Zoom links, with Skype links, with internet, with FaceTime, with everything else. It's almost— because we, we can communicate with all these different people, people don't have time. You would have thought everybody would see that we're all the same and not that we're all different, but it's almost like the world is full of sound bites. Everybody wants to give a sound bite and nobody then wants to listen. But I've discovered through listening to podcasts, you're spending time listening because you can't talk back to the podcast. So okay, you do gravitate to podcasts that suit your needs, maybe, but then if there's something that you think, I can learn that, but I'm doing it in a safe environment because no one can see me listening to this, I can disagree with this in private, or I can have some kind of discourse in my own brain with this, then come to a resolution and then go and talk to somebody else about it. Whereas normally a conversation is, if you're in a group of people and you're the person that doesn't disagree, so your group of 10, you're the one that doesn't agree with the other 9, it's very difficult sometimes to speak up.

Yeah.

Well, it's pressure.

And there's things that happen all the time around the world. You know, when we look at it, we boil that down to when we do in the schools and talk about bullying, and it's always about the bystander, but it is very difficult for a bystander to make any difference at that point. It's only when a group of bystanders get together as a group that I feel that then they can make a difference.

Can I say something? Can I say something before you add to that? Because I think— yeah, sure, it's a great topic that we're talking about because I think it's impacting the way people, uh, get along with each other today in the world instantly. It's an instant society we live in. But speaking of instantly, I heard from a young lady Gary, I don't know if you know this, and Michael, from France, who's a friend of yours, Lauren, who listened to the whole podcast. And I went, that is really cool. She listened to the whole entire podcast in France and, and then contacted me and sent me a message on Instagram. So it's— that worked really well. And then when Gary came to me in the beginning of this whole process. Hey, let's do a podcast show. I wasn't all that excited about it. I thought, nah, I don't know, you know. But it is, it is the hot thing to do. Everybody that's anybody has a podcast show and everybody's putting them out there.

Yeah.

So I just thought, uh, it doesn't really, it doesn't sound like it's going to be much fun. And it's turning out to be really, really cool. I think it's going to be one of the more, um, important things that we do in our lifetime, and that's just because it is allowing people to listen. Now, I interrupted your train of thought, so, Gary, do you remember what you were talking about?

Yeah, well, yeah, well, yeah, well, I just wanted to, you know, uh, hang on to what, what Gary was saying about time, you know, that, and yeah, that's the positive part of the podcast is that you, you, you have to listen, you know. Well, you could scream at the podcast, but that's not going to do much of anything, but, but But you have to listen. And that's what that was. You know, these are fundamental philosophical questions. Heidegger in Being and Time or Time and Being. I mean, this huge philosophical tome that he wrote, he was talking about time, you know, and that's the one thing that really defines us. And what we've done with all our technology is basically, you know, we haven't gained time. We haven't used it to our advantage. We've just filled, filled our time with, with this idiotic, but I mean, with this superficial, you know, activities, you know, and not using it. But I mean, your point of connecting with my friend, you know, through, you know, Instagram and stuff like that. And it's like, yeah, this is, this is what we should be doing. I mean, I tell that, you know, I don't get to see my kids you know, so much. And so I use, you know, social media as a way, and WhatsApp and all that, as a tool to keep in touch, you know. Of course, you can use anything as a weapon, or anything, you know, you can abuse anything. I mean, my gosh, we've had this, you know, debate since, you know, the beginning of time, right? You know, it's like, oh, fire, you had fire, oh, that's going to ruin everything now, you know.

That blasted wheel.

Yeah, the wheel.

Yeah, the wheel. The wheel.

I mean, oh my God, what were they thinking?

What were they thinking?

No, no, we can make a fire cart and roll it over to their house.

Yeah, that's right, that's right, the good old days of carrying it in your hand, you know. So yeah, the time, the time element is really important. But the other thing I think, getting back to what Scary has taught me, is, you know, uh, seeing people, separating people into two images of behavior and the person. And by doing that— but I mean, that takes training. That's learned behavior. By doing that, then you kind of have this— then it gives you a little bit of— cuts out a bit of space for you to— and time for you to see that person not as an enemy, not as, you know, whatever adversarial, but to see them. And even if you do disagree with them, you know, and you see them as, you know, a behavior that they're learned behaviors and obviously as a person and a lot of learned behaviors adversarial. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, I'm talking about the UK. I mean, uh, the great GK Chesterton who was, um, a mountain of a man, literally and figuratively, in literature in the UK. He wrote, the Bible tells us to love our neighbors and also love our enemies, probably because generally they are the same people. But I mean, that is— this is the paradox. Oh, definitely. And with your behavior and seeing the image of behavior in person, this kind of puts it in a clearer focus.

Well, yeah, and what it's done for me personally is it allowed me to slow down and listen. I wasn't a very good listener for many years. I was more of a talker and more of somebody that wanted to get my message. If I could get my message into you, then you would get better. And be fixed, and then I would feel better and I would be fixed. See, so that's how I live my life. Now, did I know that during that time period? No, I didn't see it that way. I just, I just said, as long as you spoke words that I could agree with, then you were my friend. But whenever you spoke words that I disagree with, you were my enemy. And that's how I saw it, and that's how I think a lot of people see it today. There, everybody sees it as a good versus evil, enemy versus ally relationships. And it all has to do with the fact that none of us, like you said, I don't think are very good at really listening. And what the separating people into two different pieces— and I do that every day, I have to remind myself because that just happened to me on Twitter. I told you what my incident was on Twitter where somebody labeled me a weird one, you know. And my first gut feeling when I, that I read This is words I read. He didn't even hear him speak them, you know. I just read them and I went— you could just feel the hair on the back of my neck because he was calling me a name, you know. And I could just feel my energy come up like this. I want to say, oh, I was okay. What can I do to get that key in my words, you know? And I think, wait a minute, that goes against what I teach. I go, I can't do it, you know. I want to do it. I want to get back into the old fist fighting routine and hammer it out and call the guy some names back, but I don't. I just decided to just leave it alone and go back to my teaching, which was everything that he creates is a reflection of who he is, and none of it is about me, even though he said my name in the sentence. And so I just believe that so wholeheartedly that the energy that person was creating was his energy. So it's a reflection of him, it's not mine. But the natural instinct on social media was to go to the fight. Go to the battle, argue, fistfight, whatever it takes, you know, to be that, like you said, the alpha male. I was an alpha male. I want to be the alpha male. I can't let that guy beat me up. You know, that's how it felt.

Well, it's this binary, this false binary relationship. It's either, you know, on or off. It's either good or evil. And that's not even the true reality. And what you're teaching is breaking that binary. Because that's not true. We're not all— you're not all good or all evil. You know, we're not all, you know, we're not one way or the other. And even in a, let's say, a belief system, okay, like you say of Christianity and you have this, you know, good and evil. But if you look at— I mean, do it— you start drilling into the characteristics of the devil, then, you know, or Satan, okay, evil. Yeah. But he's the angel of light. And highly intelligent and things like this. So it's like, well, it's, well, you know, is that evil? You know, I mean, it starts falling apart once you start looking at, you know, things more closely, the binary falls apart. And, but the other thing is, you know, when it comes to this whole broadcast mentality that we have, you know, reason why is because we're rewarded. We are rewarded for that. Just think of, I mean, I have one of my, uh, I think Was it one of my sons, Jonathan? He didn't speak, you know, for a long time. And then, okay, of course, and then, you know, society, parents, you know, doctors, that's a red flag. What's wrong with him? Is he deaf? What, you know?

No.

You know, so, so, you know, is speaking, you know, and broadcasting yourself and, you know, especially in Western society is, you know, is rewarded. It's constantly rewarded and it's, and it's not getting us where we need to go.

Well, you know how we're rewarded today, don't you?

How?

By the number of likes.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And then we're programmed— check this out, dude, this is unbelievable. Talk about brainwashing. They've got us to believe— I am— I sincerely believe, because I see people post it all the time, hey, you guys, come and like my this, like my that, like me, like this. And the number of likes There's this new platform called TikTok. I'm sure you've heard of it, you know, and that's all they're about is getting people to like their, their pages. That's it. That you are ranked and rated as a human being by the number of people that have hit the like button. That's it.

Yeah, but it's all— it's also a business model if you want to, you know, make money at this.— and get, you know, get, get, you know, it's a marketing model of, you know, how many likes you had, then you can have this advertisement, or you get more money for the advertisement that's on your, your channel.

So I'm a failure is what you're trying to tell me.

Oh yeah.

Well, I didn't want to say it that way, but I mean, I don't have—

on one platform, I don't have that many. I only have 2,600 likes, you know.

I don't, I don't think this is the platform to discuss this.

And I think on another platform, I have—

you listen to this, don't like us, we don't want any likes, no follows, no views, please.

Because 89,000 likes later, I'm like really successful, and I'm going, will it— will I be able to sell a t-shirt now? You know, that's what I think in my mind. Who's going to buy my stuff?

If no one watches this then, or listens to this, then we've got a very successful product because we know that no— I tell Yes, years and years ago, years and years ago, we, um, or I posted something about what Scary was doing. I don't know what country we're in, and it was a clip of one of the TV news had done an interview, you know, it was a soundbite from Scary, but it was about what was going on about behavior and everything else. And I think, and I don't know what social media platform it went out on, but it must have had 20, 30 views maybe. I don't remember. Underneath that, someone else had posted came up on my timeline, "What color pants are you wearing today?" which had got 1 million views.

So it's like, okay, 1 million views.

Okay, okay, just a suggestion, you know, when you do post this as a podcast, put a kitten in the visual, please.

Exactly. A kitten wearing green pants. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, please. Because I think then we'll get the hits.

Or Or those little hearts on your cheeks. Oh, it's so sad.

It's bad, isn't it?

Just terrible.

Let me, let me sit, make— take this back to her and I'll, some edit. I'll edit all this round, uh, later on. I want to go back to, um, good luck on the post.

This is too cool.

This is good. This— there's two types. There'll be an editor's, director's cut and obviously—

I'll give you a like on this, don't worry about it.

That'll be fine.

Yeah. No, don't trust that man.

It's the trailer. I want to go back to the bit you talked about time. With the long— with the COVID-19 and the fact that almost everywhere around the world, they've had to adjust to this and be locked down. A lot of families, for a lot of them, it's the first time they've ever spent that much time in each other's company. Do you think, going back to the time issue, that in a way that this period of time in the world could actually benefit people? Are there people taking advantage of this and actually recalculating their life?

Oh yeah, I think, I think you can, you know, unless it's a dire situation that you lose your job from this, you start to reprioritize, you know, things. I mean, I, since I, you know, I don't live with my kids, I really cherish the time I have with them, and I try to make I try to take as much time as I can, whether it's, you know, via cyberly or face-to-face. You know, it's just like, hey, you have time? Let's go for a quick coffee then. You know, so yeah, and you just can't get that back. You know, really, it's how people prioritize it. Why do you have kids then? I mean, you know, if you're not going to enjoy their company.

Talking to the converted, but it's something that seems to be— it's, it's that busy, you know, like, you, you know, you— because you mentioned time, so it's— yeah, it's the fact that everyone wishes their time away, whether it be on their schedule, their calendar, their— I'm off, you know, everything is pre-programmed. So they're always looking forward to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.

Yeah, yeah. But then there is a sweet spot. There is a sweet spot. I have this with a, uh, a former student of mine who who I've mentored. Now we're trying to write a book together. And so she's a close friend of mine and she's just, I call her, what do I call her? A pit bull squirrel. Because I mean, I explain it this way. She's a pit bull because once she grabs onto something, she's going to see it through. But then she's like a squirrel because her attention goes to something else. And so she has a conceptualization of time that's way different than mine. It's like doing 1,000 things. And I'm like, no, that's— I mean, because I, you know, there, there is, you know, scientific evidence. There's been studies done on the importance of downtime, the importance of doing nothing.

Yeah.

You know, big time. There's, there's— yeah, but there is, I mean, there, so it's basically getting a sweet spot, you know. And that— and I see, I try to get the sweet spot in almost anything I try to do, you know. Let's say it's a— if it's a course and stuff like that, hey, yeah, I could give them so much material it would choke a horse, or I could give them hardly any material and then so they're, you know, they're, you know, it's, it's just too much for them or too little. So no, you have to find that sweet spot. And this is the same, you know, of how much material do you give them so they master the material and not cover everything.

Right. So they stay focused. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's with time also. And I think with this, you know, I think this is the best case scenario that the whole COVID-19 has been a reboot for people's conceptualization and priorities concerning time. I hope so.

I hope so.

I hope so. Yeah. But again, it's, it's, uh, again, it's about agency and structure. It's basically the, your agency, your own self-will, and the structure of the context that you're in. Because I'm just so happy that I'm living in Austria because, I mean, they pretty much closed— they closed down pretty quickly, and now they're up again. And everybody was like, OK, fine. And really, it was like a ghost town here. A ghost town. And everybody's like, yeah, OK, let's do it. Now, that says a lot about the culture. I mean, that's the thing that, I mean, I had a problem with, you know, living in the United States. It was, I mean, I never regret growing up there because as I tell people, you know, as I tell my students who were looking for jobs and stuff like that, I said, I know this is the right thing for me. You know, I've done so many other jobs in my life that I know being a lecturer is the right thing. You know, because I've done other things and this is not, you know, this is not the worst gig I've ever had. But the thing is, is that people, I mean, the cultural thing, you know, that the problem I had with the United States was it was just too individual to its detriment. You know, again, and here sometimes I guess in Austria it's too group-oriented. Then you're, you know, so, but again, in this context, it worked out well for us. You know, we're not going to feel the hit as much as other, other countries.

Yeah, well, I think countries are starting to come out of it now, I think, but I don't know if they'll ever, ever fully come out of it because they still have the virus. Now, I just heard the other day that the virus was getting weaker. The scientists have determined that the actual virus is, is diminishing and that it could actually go away without a vaccine. Did you hear that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you change, if you change habits, it will, it will die out because it needs a host. Yeah, it needs a host.

Weaker and going away. So anyway, I hope that's true too. I just think it'd be more, more human if we were more human.

Well, that's deep. Let me write that down.

That's the Holy Grail.

Yeah, that's a quote for the ages.

Use that in your next lecture.

That's the type.

That's the podcast title would be more human.

If we could be more human, get rid of the rest of it.

Another element of time I wanted to address— I've been scribbling down notes as we've been going along. We were talking about behavior, and you were talking about separating the person from the behavior, and Scary was then talking about the weird email that he'd received. And, um, everyone's going to want to know what this weird email is. So, uh, if you want to know what the weird email is, please write in the comments and if we get a million comments and a million likes, then we will tell you what the email was. Okay, we need the likes to get the email.

I get a million likes and you're gonna buy a t-shirt.

Yeah, okay, we'll do that.

And, uh, a t-shirt.

What I wanted to get was one of the important pieces that I've taken from the years and years of working with Scary is the element that Scary said that the first— his first instinct was to go back at this person, pre-programmed to do that. But he didn't because he has that physical— if you have a physical awareness of your thoughts— but he had that awareness of his thoughts, so he knew what was going on. Would you say within communication, awareness of what, what you're saying and what's coming back at you is another key element? So you've got listening, is awareness of what's going on because a really cool tool that Scary gives to everybody, and I'm assuming he did that for you when you went to see the presentation, is to give a tool for everybody to be aware of what they're saying and what they're hearing, which is the 7-day, 7-night challenge. Yeah, yeah. So for 7 days, 7 nights— so if you haven't heard it, 7 days, 7 nights, you don't say one negative word about another human being. And for 7 days, 7 nights, you don't call anybody a name other than their own. So you're then actually aware of what you're saying. You can't automatically say anything back. That's another way of giving you time, isn't it? Time to reevaluate who you are, what you're doing, and what your behavior is.

It's pushing— it's basically pushing you in a, in a different area where, where most people haven't inhabited. Me being more reflective or reflexive, if you want to be sociological about it, that, you know, that, as you said, the time element, it pushes you in an area. It's like, okay, fine, I have to watch myself. And I've tried to do it and I failed every time. But it's a good— even if you're not successful, the process is is actually the goal here.

Learning.

Yeah, yeah. Doing it. I mean, attempting it is having this process and it's learned behavior. Again, it's like training. If you keep at it, you'll get better at it. And I just think, I just reflect upon myself. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, half my vocabulary is gone now.

I've been mourning the fact that half of my vocabulary has been gone for 20 years.

And you should hear what other half is left, so I dread to think what the other half was.

This half was not all that good. It's just horrible.

But yeah, but I mean, Gary, if I understand the question correctly, I mean, into the whole listening, but right-sizing the message to the person, the context. This is why, you know, this is like the context that you're in. You have, you know, and you have to read the room well. And that's, you know, I tell the students that too. I mean, in the presentation course too, it's, it's, I tell, I basically tell them, stop broadcasting and start communicating. Have a conversation with these people. Stop just because this is not actually the most efficient way of informing people. This is more of an event that they'll remember.

Yeah.

Because all their five senses are being, not attacked, but being present in this, and it's not an email or something like that. So you have to come into conversation. Again, it's, this is, One of the core beliefs, personally and professionally, is, you know, bringing people into, you know, relationship. Relationship is key. And that's why, you know, you need to take the context into consideration.

Yeah, Neil, you know what's happening now on a lot of these social media platforms is that the broadcasts are getting shorter and shorter.

Yeah, the attention span of people. I mean, we've known that from Sesame Street.

Can you imagine that? You know, on TikTok it's 15 seconds or 12, 10 seconds, and they, and they don't— and they broadcast it and it's in your face and it's done. And then you get the next little snippet and the next little snippet from another person and the next. And you're sitting here like, my brain is being inundated by 10-second pieces of information that are completely useless. And I'm going, wow. And this is what people are used to creating.

Yeah. And this is what they're growing up with. Yeah.

So then, yeah, they're, they're, they're just learned behavior.

Yeah.

Again, yeah, again, it's, it's, it's a misuse of the technology.

Well, and it's just, how are they ever, ever going to know how to really truly sit down and communicate with each other and work through problems, problem solve? How are they going to ever, ever know how to do that if we raise generations of people that see 10 and 15-second pieces of broadcast information for the pure gratification of that moment? I don't understand how they're ever going to know how to communicate. I just don't know.

Well, I think that you're going to have a minority that are going to be reflexive, meaning they're going to think about this and then act upon it. They're going to say, ah, this is unhealthy behavior. I need to fast from this. And I know people who do that. You know, they take time away from, from social media. Yeah. And my, my, um, my son does this. My oldest son Patrick does this. He fasts from social media, which is, you know, it's a good— like, anything is— that, that's good. I mean, obviously too little or too much of anything is bad.

Yeah.

You know, so find— again, finding the sweet spot, finding everything in moderation, including moderation. That's right. Oh, another quote Yeah, let me write that down.

Write that one down. That's a good one. Everything in moderation, including moderation, because every now and then you have to go to excess.

Yes, that's right.

Just to know what you don't go to excess, then you'll never know what it's like to recover from a true hangover. Or be totally silent. Check that one out.

Oh yeah, what, during the hangover? I usually am. Besides my own groaning.

I, I can't afford a hangover today because they last for like 4 or 5 days now. The older I get, the harder it is on my body, and it's like, oh my goodness, I'm not 20 anymore.

It's, it's 2 days with me, so I guess with you it'd be 4. Okay, great, I know my future.

See, you just said, um, scary, totally silent, and it's a word that I'd written down on my piece of paper right at the very beginning of the part. I just wrote some single words down around about communication, and silence is one that I've seen to be extraordinarily powerful. Oh, it's huge, the silence. The amount of communication that Scary is able to put out without saying a single word, and the amount of communication he then gets back from the audience. Who again are not saying a single word. It's extraordinary to watch that go down, you know, the facial expressions, the body movements. You can feel the energy change just in moments of silence.

And I think, well, that's the, that's the universal language. That's why he's successful in different countries, because this is, this is the universal language that they're picking up. No. And that's true. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's— but silence is— I mean, there's been studies on that too. I mean, going into negotiating, you know, negotiating certain, you know, like a contract or stuff like that, and just the use of silence and getting more money. Or that's why— I mean, I used to teach a lot in Finland, and Finland is stereotypically known for being a very silent country. You know, the typical Finn is very quiet, which I found fine. I had absolutely zero problem with that. I don't need to fill the air with, you know, uh, ephemeral verbiage, verbiage, you know? Uh, and yeah, there's, there's a lot of strength in silence because then you're giving space to be reflective, you know? And that's, that's important. That's what you need to be human.

Let's try it. Perfect.

That was good. I was seeing that.

No, now the listeners went, oh, what happened to my speaker?

It's like, no, is it over?

Everybody that's used to watching TikTok and Twitter and all those other ones, they just went into like serious withdrawal.

They're going to need to see a counselor, particularly if I edit that video clip of us, everything just suddenly going Yeah, no, no.

Yeah, everybody freeze.

Certain expressions like—

yeah, definitely they have technical problems in their show.

They really should get a better modem.

It's crazy. Life is Oh, okay. Did I mute myself in the middle of a word?

Yes, you did.

Was it a word that followed weird?

Life is real. Did you like that? Wasn't that pretty cool?

I can read this.

No, wasn't that really— I love the mute button. I don't know if you know that, but it is so powerful. And for those of you that have been picked on and bullied on social media and you're sitting there depressed, and upset and angry and frustrated and hurt and sad, man, just block them and delete them. That's what I always tell kids. I said, get rid of that person off of your social media. Don't go back there. Don't be subject to the same old routine over and over and over. Just be— you don't need to be liked by that person. They don't— they're not going to. They're going to continue to beat you up on the social media. Then ban and block them. That's what I tell them.

I think— I mean, I tell my kids this. I mean, it's like if they're in relationships and stuff like that, you know, everybody's like posting this stuff on Facebook and Instagram, whatever. I said, you need to leave a certain space for personal life. And that needs to be off of the net. Yeah, you need to, you need that, you need that. Or I mean, or you, you go into this whole, uh, you know, I mean, social theory of, you know, uh, of, uh, Foucault and this panopticon that we're all looking. Yeah, you know, what's happened to me during COVID-19, it's happened. What?

Well, I'm constantly chasing the next message on my phone. I don't know if that's happened to you, but I'm up till 2:30 in the morning during COVID-19 because I'm not doing anything. You know, I'm watching TV till midnight, I'm looking at films, you know, and well, you know, and you get into the same pattern. Then I'm up and then I'm going, okay, what did they say? What did they— how did they respond? And I'm monitoring it and I'm chasing them And I don't fall asleep till 2:30, 3 o'clock. And then when I fall asleep, I'm still thinking about what they just said on the social media. I'm going, well, that's almost, it's almost sick. I'm almost sick from it. I'm losing sleep. Think about it. That's, that's, I wonder how many people are like that because of this whole thing. I mean, you know, it's really, really harmful for your own mental health.

You need to leave some space. For stuff that's offline. You need to leave some space. And that, then I think that goes with the whole theme of this entire podcast of the silence and listening and space and, you know, making healthy choices that, that, yeah, I mean, we're not, we're not saying, okay, you got to get rid of all social media. No, we're saying you just have to use it wisely for your own, your own, you know, psychological, you know, welfare.

Well, if you don't learn to use it wisely, it's going to use you.

Oh yeah, definitely.

It'll use you. It'll eat you up. It'll chew you up, and it'll, it'll consume every waking moment of your life. You will have the biggest ulcer by the time you're 30 if you're in your 20s. No, I'm serious. People will get so bent out of shape because they don't know what to do about this, and it's just very, very— I'm not I, I'm with you.

I'm—

I don't think it's the social media as the problem. I think humans are trying to figure out how to communicate within that world, and how are we going to come out on the other side of this is yet to be determined. And that's, that's the difficult part. That's why I was really excited about having you on, because you are dealing with people in the communication world and you teach communication. You teach it at a university in Austria, and I think it's important to know from your vantage point what's going on in the world with people because you see it, you feel it.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, and, and well, just on a, a pragmatic level, just having things, putting things online. I mean, I had to make a decision. They, they closed down the universities, you know, One day, one day they closed it down. So I was like, oh, I have to, you know, I have classes that I had to flip them over into an online forum. And it just became a huge bottleneck because the most efficient way of communicating, especially for what I do, it's not a whole bunch of exams. It's a lot of, you know, assignments, but it's basically, you know, performance. They have to either present or run a discussion or or pitch something, and the most efficient way is face-to-face. And the feedback that I give, the most efficient is face-to-face. So I couldn't do that, or, you know, it just slowed down things and gave like at least 3 times as much work because I have to write them back now. And I remember the first week of having these online classes, I spent the majority of my day just answering emails. And then, then you're just— and then you're just finished after that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we're coming to the end of this, this interview and this time with you, and I'm really grateful that you've taken the time.

It's all right. I, I appreciate this, man.

Yeah, it's just really cool. And, um, what I wanted to ask you is, um, what do you think we've learned from this episode? What do you think we could say that we've actually learned as a— as the three of us here put this forward, that we could actually— what would you want to say that we've learned? Because now you're a professional educator. Well, I want to know, what do you think we could— we could all learn from this today and sum it up that way?

Well, I, you know, I think Gary really, you know, hit upon it. I mean, it's the whole time element. I mean, and from the whole context of COVID-19, having that being thrust upon us, and from what you teach and what you— I mean, it gives us an insight that we can slow down or at least You know, uh, gain more time when interacting with people.

And that's the key right now, isn't it?

It's valuable.

I think we need to learn how to slow down.

Yeah.

Slow down, even though we're not moving. Think about it, you know, no, seriously, we're not. We're the whole world has been kind of in its own little prison and, and that's just in its own little space. And now here we are talking about slowing down. And it's really what's going on inside of our minds and what we're doing with the information that we're getting off this, these little tubes, you know, these little screens every day. And we need to slow that down a bit.

Yeah, but we need, we need the tools. We need the tools to do that. We need the tools to filter this inundation. And I remember, remember getting a cell phone. I was the last one in the family to get a cell phone. 'Cause I was like, I don't want to be reachable all the time. That was my attitude. You know, that was my freedom. I don't want to be reachable.

And now it's the opposite.

Yeah. I was going to say—

And now it's the opposite because I came around. I came around and I thought, okay, fine. I have to reframe this. I have to reframe this because this is not healthy. And I reframed it like, this is a tool that I can reach out to my kids and continue my relationship.

Yep. That was cool. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on and spending an hour with us.

And, um, I appreciate the invitation.

I hope when, when all of this COVID gets better, we can come back to your university and actually visit you in person again and maybe convince your university that what we teach is important and, and coming share it with more of your university students. That would be really cool. I just really think that would be exciting.

I'd love to do that again. I think that is the one lesson that we've learned from COVID that human contact is highly important and the quality of it is even more important.

Well, I need a Michael hug anyway. I think I need I know that sounds weird, but I'm sure Gary will edit that out.

Well, time has flown. I think, I think we definitely hit the sweet spot on the podcast. And if technology didn't exist, we wouldn't be sitting here talking to each other. It's been a pleasure to meet you and see you. And I can't wait to come to Austria and see your beautiful city in the beautiful country again and spend some time.

Please. Yes, we're open for business.

Looking forward to it. Thanks again.

Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. Right, cheers.

Thank you for listening to The Scary Guy podcast. This is a Vision Heart production. A wa wa wa wa wa. A wa wa wa wa wa.