Webinar: A Call to Action - Protecting Our Common Home

Good afternoon everyone. I'm Heather Goldstone, Chief Communications Officer at Woods Hole Research center. And welcome to this first knab webinar of June 2020. This webinar series, which we launched back in March as we all transitioned into Covid restricted life working from home. And so I welcome you today from my home, as I have for the past few months, rather than from Woods Hole Research Center. And we thank you all for joining us for this really special webinar. For those of you who may not be familiar, Woods Hole Research center is an organization of world class scientists working with a global network of partners to understand and to combat climate change. And some of our partners are other scientists with whom we collaborate around the world in studying some of the world's most consequential ecosystems. Some of our partners though, fall well outside the scientific realm. We work with leaders in a variety of sectors to help bring science out of the lab, out of academia, into the real world and into the hands of those able to make the change that we need in order to address the change climate, climate crisis. And that is something that you will very much hear about today in this webinar marking the fifth anniversary of Pope Francis encyclical Laudato SI with a discussion of faith based climate action and how that has grown and evolved over the past five years. Before we get started on that, as we've been doing each week, for those of you who are returning to our webinar series, we we'd like to get to know a little bit about each of you. As I've already noted, we understand that these webinars are happening in unprecedented circumstances and normally if we were coming together for this kind of discussion, you'd be walking into perhaps an auditorium where you could see those around you. And in this webinar setting we can't do that, but we would like to get to know a little bit about those of you who are with us today. And we have people still streaming in to join us. Almost 275 people with us right now. So glad to have you all with us and what I'm going to do so that we can start to get a sense, just a little sense of who else is in the room is I'm going to launch a poll here and ask you each to tell us how old you are. An easy question that we should all know the answer to. So I've put that poll up and we'll give that a moment or two for, for everybody or most of you to have a chance to vote. And we're getting there. We're at 65, 70% have given us their answers so far, slowing down a little bit. Word about 80%. And so far the vast majority of our audience today in the over 65 age range, almost 75%, about three quarters of people, close to 20% in the 51 to 65 year age range, about about 5% in the 30 to 50 age range and a handful of people under 30. I'm going to end that poll and share those results up on the screen with you just for a moment so you can see those numbers. So of course, that's only one way to get to know each other. One of the great things about these webinars is that we are not restricted by geography. So a silver lining in our current circumstances. And that means that we can have both panelists from around the country and around the world and that we can have all of you joining us from around the world. And we have seen people joining us from around the world. So I'm going to launch another poll here and ask you all to tell us where you're joining from today, where you live. Seeing so far mostly in the US Northeast and Canada, US Midwest and the western parts of the United States coming in about third there, some from the south, but also folks joining us today from Europe, from Central and South America, from Africa. We'll give this another minute. It looks like the voting has slowed down, but again, I will share these results with you because hearing those numbers as they fly by can be a little tough to take in. But it is great to have some such a global audience for our discussion today. Thank you to everyone who is joining us from around the world. So as I already mentioned, today's discussion of faith based climate action rather is inspired by the upcoming fifth anniversary of Pope Francis encyclical on the environment, Laudato Si, published in June of 2015. And I have to say at that time I was working as a science reporter and covering the impact of that document within the science community and also within communities, faith communities and climate action communities. And the thing that really struck me out of all of my reporting, the encyclical itself was historic in a number of regards, one being, as I was told, that an encyclical had never quoted scientific documents like the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change before. So that was a step out of the usual. But I also heard from faith leaders, not only in a range of Christian denominations, but from a range of faith backgrounds that in a lot of cases this was the first time they had read an encyclical and, and that it had really struck a chord with them, that this document struck a chord well, outside the Catholic Church. And so it is with that initial impact in mind that we turn our focus to what has ensued over the past five years in terms of faith based climate action and cooperation between the faith and science communities. And I'm going to hand over the role of moderating today's discussion to my colleague Dave McGlinchey. He's our chief of External affairs at Woods Hole Research Center. He is a man of many talents. He is a lawyer, he is an author. And I have to share, he also recently gave the sermon at a local church on this very topic on the moral case for climate action. I can tell you that faith based climate action is something that is near and dear to Dave's heart. And I'm happy to turn it over to him to moderate the rest of today's discussion.

Thank you so much. Heather, can you hear me okay?

Sound great.

Great. Yes, as Heather said, I did deliver the homily at a local church on faith based climate action. And when I was invited to, I thought it was gonna be a few minutes at the end of the service, but then I found out I had to actually deliver the homily, integrate the reading of the day, and it became much more daunting. But they didn't run me out, so it must have gone okay. Thank you, Heather. Thank you for that excellent introduction and framing. I think the impact and the importance of Laudato Si. It was a remarkable document and. It's still having impact to this day. And I'm going to share my slides now. Okay, well, like I said, thank you so much and thank you to everyone who's attending today. I hope you're all safe and well during this turbulent and difficult time. This is an issue we're talking about today that is near and dear to my heart. I'm very pleased to be a part of the conversation. This is going to be a conversation. I'm going to take about five to 10 minutes at the outset to frame the topic and the context, but then I want to make most of this a dialogue with our two excellent guests. So, first of all, Heather introduced the Woods Hole Research Center. I'll just take one more moment to do that. We are a scientific research institution founded in 1985 to study climate change and to integrate that research into decision making and policy making. Our founder, George Woodwell, was among the first climate scientists to testify to Congress back in 1986. We were deeply involved in launching the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and have been intertwined with domestic and international policymaking ever since. Broadly speaking, our scientists study how climate change is affecting the world, how it will affect the world in the future, and how we can manage natural systems like forests, soils and wetlands to help mitigate climate change. So why is this science based organization working with faith communities? And the answer is, as Heather described in her introduction, lies in our approach towards impact. We're a small organization, we have about 75 employees, and we're only able to get our science out into the world through partnerships. So here you see a sampling of the partnerships we're involved with. They include national country governments, universities, other nonprofit organizations, and private sector companies. And it was this approach to outreach that led to a remarkable meeting in May of 2018 convened by Cardinal Sean Patrick O' Malley of Boston. In this photo, you'll see Woods Hole Research Center President Phil Duffy next to the podium. On the other side of the podium is Cardinal o'. Malley. Next to the Cardinal is one of our panelists here today, Reverend Mariama White Hammond. And you can really see an array of of faith leaders of all denominations and faiths coming together. And this group came together because they identified a shared moral and ecological emergency. The day they met, they also released a powerful statement that identified this overlap, identified the overlap between the scientific community's concern about climate change and the religious community's concern about climate change. Going to read you one brief paragraph from that statement, which I thought sums the whole thing up rather nicely. Motivated by the climate crisis, we come together as people of scientific competence and people of faith because continued inaction is both scientifically irrational and morally indefensible. This meeting led to a coalition with enormous potential called the the Faith Science Alliance. I'm very excited about the impact that this group will have delivering climate science to audiences that are more likely to be receptive and to listen to a faith leader than they are to a climate scientist. But of course, this is just one example of a wide array of environmental and climate change activism by faith leaders. This important work to raise awareness of the moral emergency of climate change stretches across years and decades and countries and faiths. The example of that that prompted our webinar today, as Heather mentioned, was Laudato Si, the second encyclical issued by Pope Francis, published just a little more than five years ago this month. And the direct message was startling to many people who didn't expect such blunt environmental language from the Vatican. But as you can see in clear and unequivocal terms. The Pope, Pope Francis, identifies the importance of the climate, the importance of a stable climate to the global community. One aspect that surprised many outside observers was the scientific depth of the document. Heather mentioned that it actually cited the international, I mean, the IPCC assessment reports. And I've pulled language from laudato si here that focuses on three areas of particular interest to the Woods Hole Research Center. If you're familiar with our work, you'll recognize these themes. The document identified emissions from permafrost thaw.

As.

Of critical importance to maintaining a future and stable climate, the enduring importance of tropical forests to sequester carbon and stabilize the climate, and also the multitude of climate risks that we face from unfettered climate change. But fundamentally, this is this was a moral document. It focuses on the fact that climate change impacts will disproportionately affect developing countries and will disproportionately affect the poorest communities, those that are least able to adapt, least able to relocate, least able to rebuild. And it correctly notes that, sadly, there's still widespread indifference to such suffering, which even now is taking place throughout our world. That was true in 2015, and that is all the more true and all the more urgent in 2020. So we're going to talk about Laudato Si. We're going to talk about the disproportionate impacts of climate change. We're going to talk about climate justice. And to do that, we have two leaders on these issues. Michael Sean Winters is a journalist who writes for the National Catholic Reporter. He was deeply involved in the organization of the 2018 meeting that I mentioned, hosted by Cardinal O'. Malley. His perspectives on issues of climate justice and religion are always piercingly insightful. You can find his writing@ncronline.org that's National Catholic Reporter, ncronline.org He also asked me to place a link to some relevant writing in the chat section of this webinar. I'm going to do that in just a moment. Reverend Mary Ellen Mariama White Hammond is the founding pastor of New Roots AME Church in Dorchester, Massachusetts. She's a fellow with the Green Justice Coalition and was named one of Grist's 50 Fixers for 2019. She spoke at the Woods Hole Research center in January of last year in what I can confidently say was one of the most emotional and inspiring talks ever given there. To be fair, most of our talks are by biogeochemists, so it's not the highest bar in the world to clear, but it was a Remarkable and important conversation. She also spoke in 2018 at the meeting that Cardinal O' Malley hosted. And Michael Shawn, when he heard her there, said, I would follow that woman into battle. It would most likely be a metaphorical battle, but it still captures what I think is the essence of Reverend Mariama speaking. I've had the pleasure of working with both of them. They're both dedicated and genuine people who are working tirelessly to make the world a better place. I'm deeply honored that they both were able to join us today. So if we can pivot and unmute our guests. Perfect. Reverend Mariama, I'd love to start with you, if you can hear me. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, I can hear you.

Great. So I'm asking this question in the context of the upheaval across America right now. As a nation, we're struggling with the weight of pervasive and historic and enduring racism. I was hoping you could talk about the connection between climate justice and social justice and how we can start to address some of these inequities and some of these injustices.

Yeah. So first, I want to thank you for being here. It's good to see my friends at Woods Hole, even if we're kind of seeing each other through the screen. And Michael Shannon, it's good to see you. It's been a little bit, so it's good to be here. I think this question really aligns with the spirit of laudato. Si. And what I think was powerful about it. Yes. You know that the Pope talked about science, but what I think that really deeply resonated with people is that the Pope made a connection between the deep injustice we see in how we treat each other and the deep injustice in how we treat all of the rest of the living and present beings in our planet. And I think it's so well articulated something that many of us are spiritual leaders, but it's not just spiritual leaders that. That we just are not living in right relationship. And that's the bottom line of really all of it. It is only when you have extremely unhealthy relationships that one human could put their knee into the neck of another human and keep it there as their life literally flows away. And that other humans could sit there and watch that happen. If you can do that, if you are a society that produces people that do that, then it's really not hard to understand why we would be so short sighted in the way we live with all the rest of the creatures on this planet. And so I think we are pushing ourselves to the limit at which this planet will tolerate our behavior. I think we like to say we're saving the planet, but I just want to get really clear. The planet will continue to exist. Most of what we're doing, unless we start a nuclear war, which is also, unfortunately, within our ability to do, the majority of the planet will stay intact. Yes, species are dying daily. Yes, rivers are being polluted. But I think what we are doing is pushing it to the point where the earth might say, you know what, if it's between you and me, I choose me. And that's what we are doing. And I think what was beautiful about what Pope Francis articulated is the fact that we are so unhealthy that we're doing that even to our own species. No, giraffes don't say, oh my gosh, you have four extra spots. We are going to, like, deny you the things you need to live. No other species behaves like us. And so what I appreciated is the naming of us as the problem. Not the planet, not the birds, it's us. And the recognition that, you know, quite frankly, we have tech, we have plenty of what we need to get started. It's not a problem. We have solar power, we have wind power. What we lack is the will to change. And I think that's what we're seeing in this moment. Where I will say I see some silver lining is that Covid has brought us to such a deep place of vulnerability that those of us, maybe even who usually weren't inclined to self reflection. There are some people, as a pastor, I can be truthful. There are some people that really are just somehow beyond self reflection. There's a small number of them. They exist, unfortunately, we get to see some of them broadcast on television. But most of us have some capacity to look inside ourselves. And this crazy, unsettling, uncomfortable moment is causing us to look inside. And it's not gonna erase all the injustices. But I do see people wanting, hoping, demanding, and hopefully transforming ourselves to be something better, because that is what is required of us. And if we don't get it together, the planet will help to get rid of the problematic species that's causing drama for everybody else. But we don't have to push it to that point. We don't. We can rise to this moment. In some instances, I see us doing it. We've got a lot more work to do. But I think that Laudato si really made those connections and said we can do this if we choose to.

That's powerfully put, and you're absolutely right. Laudato Si identified fossil fuel emissions, identified deforestation, identified human activity as the problem. It was unequivocal about that. And that was, I think, surprising and blunt. With that, I want to turn to Michael Shawn and look back. It's been five years since Laudato Si was published. It was clear it was unequivocal. How far have we come? How far has the Church come since then? And where does it need to go?

You know, when you say the church, I want to narrow it to start the conversation with the Catholic Church in the United States. And I think people have this misperception that the Pope says jump and every Catholic in the world says, how high, Holy Father? These things are received over time and in America, to give you a sense of where the learning curve started, the day we knew when Laudato Si was coming out, and I was part of some conversations about the need to really have a press conference at the National Press Club to explain to journalists what an encyclical is, how it differs from other types of teaching, how this fit into the tradition of Catholic social teaching, which goes back to the 19th century and then to the biblical notions of justice and things like this. So we had an archbishop and a cardinal and they reserved a room that had seating for about a dozen reporters. And it was 7am and of course there were 80 reporters. But that idea that whoever was booking the room thought, oh, you know, people, encyclical climate change, a dozen will be enough. So of course they had to commandeer additional rooms and livestream it. And after the press conference, one of the participants called me and said, how did it go? And I said, well, I think it might have been a little better if you had actually used the words climate change. So they're going for like a half hour and just had it, you know, so what, what Pope Francis has done is really introduce not only this, this subject matter, but also the way he, he taught in this encyclical was quite different. So I want to say, I think it's taken the Catholic Church a certain time to, to absorb this teaching. But in the U.S. church, I think there's an additional reason why we have been slow. And that's because there are really powerful and very wealthy interests, some of which are Catholic, that do not want to see an agenda of climate change take hold in the Catholic Church. And there are other issues that they want. The Catholic University of America, two years ago, three years ago, had their business school, had this big two day conference honoring Charles Koch of the Koch brothers, who led and funded efforts to cast dispersions on laudato si to question the science. So this Pope has faced headwinds on a variety of issues, but really none more than this within the U.S. church. Added to that, I think there were issues with activists learning how to engage the Catholic Church. And we can get to that later in the conversation. But I do want to tell you, every year in September, I lead a seminar on Catholic social teaching in Warsaw for the rising generation of Eastern European church leaders. So seminary rectors and directors of caritas, which would be like Catholic Charities and things like that. And every year we have a session on La Vacosi and they are so eager to learn more about it. And the first year we did it, we had this really very charismatic Argentinian priest, Father Zampini, who was working in London, who I'm glad to say, and he just wowed everyone with his presentation. And it wasn't just us. The Vatican hired him like a month later to come be the point person on laudato si for the universal Church. So as is often the case, personality is as important as anything. So the Pope has put some really key people in good places. I think you have some good things happening. I think you're seeing efforts to get the curriculum of Catholic schools to reflect the teaching of laudato si so that, you know, so that children sometimes are the best way to get to the parents, right? You know, so they go home and say, mommy, Daddy, why don't. Why is the oil truck here delivering oil in January? So I think there's progress, but I think it's been slower in the United States than other countries. And I think that's largely because of the resistance to this Pope from very conservative, very well funded libertarian and conservative Republican organizations.

Before I pivot to another question for Mariama, there's one question that just came in. Could you repeat the name of the point person for laudato si for the Vatican?

Oh, Father Augusto Zampini. Z A M P I N I. He works on. In Laudato Si, the Holy Father introduces this notion of integral human ecology, which is, I think, essentially what Mariama was talking about. Like this all hangs together and it's about us behaving well, behaving badly. And even more than the moral connections, the spiritual connections, that the moral has to be built on the spiritual. And if that's not there, it's all going to fall apart. So he works in an office called the De Castry for Integral Human Development that Pope Francis brought together several different offices. Cardinal Turksen from Ghana is the cardinal prefect and he's the one who hired Augusto, but just a really remarkable guy. And he goes around the world giving presentations to bishops conferences, to universities. And since he's been there, you've seen some new energy and excitement.

Great. So, Mariama, I was hoping to take a step back from Laudato si and talk more broadly about faith based approach towards climate action. You are involved in numerous interfaith initiatives. You have experience in those. I'm curious as to what you've seen across different faiths as to how this issue is taken on. How widespread is that, how enthusiastic are the different religions?

Yeah, so I mean, I think it's, it is just as Michael Shahn pointed out, like there are politics within every religious organization. I'm sure that that is to anybody who actually is part of religious organization, that is no surprise, but probably to nobody. And so, you know, it has, there are some spaces where it's taking off more or less, you know, so there's a question of what religious leaders are doing and there's the question of where it's permeating down to congregations. Right. I'd say where you probably see the best sort of, sort of saturation from my perspective is in the Jewish community, you know, which is not to say every synagogue is doing it, but many of the synagogues that I know have like a climate committee. So I, I'm guessing, I don't think anybody's put this out, but per capita the Jewish community is probably where you see some of the strongest level of activity. I've already been invited to multiple Sukkot, which is a Jewish holiday where you build a structure outside and use all nature based pieces to do that. And you have dinner. And so I've seen people, multiple people sort of saying, how do we take rituals that already were there for us and expand them to help us think about how we make this a part of our faith. I know great sort of Muslim folks who are working. I know, I think there's less ability to get all the way down to the congregation. And I think that's in part because particularly in the United States first, I think many Muslim congregations are far more diverse in terms of the number of different folks from different communities that they are catering to and have been very much under attack, both their individual members in terms of what's been going on with immigration and other sets of things and sort of the institution as a whole. So I think when you look at where people are, some of that has to do with who has more space and are more financially secure and have some more who have full time staff, for instance. Right. To be able to engage more. But I would say there's not any faith community that is not engaged in some way where some members are not engaged. For instance, I'm in a predominantly black denomination, the African Methodist Episcopal Church. We've done some really great work in terms of over the last three years putting out the kind of statements that are powerful and that we weren't doing it before. We still have much more work on getting down to the point where you show up at any local African Methodist Episcopal Church and people are like, yeah, we have a green team that's not across the board. And so we have a lot of work to do because I think that what's powerful about faith communities is how deeply rooted we can be in our local communities. And so, you know, I think all of our religious institutions need to do a better job of asking how do we create more opportunities for some bottom up local folks to get in there and get active on this issue. But there are pockets of excellence in every tradition while there's still so much room for us to keep moving forward.

So I'm going to pivot back to Michael Shawn for another question and then after that we're going to open it up to audience questions. We've got some lining up in the Q and A, which is excellent. Please submit them there. Michael Shawn, you spoke about the difference between the global Catholic church and the U.S. catholic Church and the obstacles to progress with the U.S. church acknowledging those. Can you share some success stories? Who's shown leadership? Who's set the path forward in terms of what can be done in the United States? Sure.

So right in Boston, if you are driving on 95 to 90, I guess it's 128 at that point. Just in Braintree, just before it separates and joins 93 going north, you will see the Chancery, the administrative headquarters of the Archdiocese of Boston, and they put in a 1.5 megawatt solar installation which was enough to I think take care of about 100 homes for a year. And I was having dinner with the Cardinal one night after they had put that in and I said, oh, how did that go? And he said, it's saving me $30,000 a month. I thought, oh my God, this is going to take off through the Archdiocese because especially with the COVID 19, I think every church, its budget is going to be much harder this year. And here's an area where if you develop the right business plan, there's A way to convert to sustainable energy, that there's no money up front for the religious organization. Cardinal Malley was able to do that. But in Massachusetts, that smart program that the government set up, the money ran out before they had the plans. In two parishes that wanted to do it. The third parish, there was much local opposition. The church wanted to do it. So I think part of the answer to this is if you look at that chancery installation that Cardinal Shawn did, that was all union labor. And if you're having trouble with local officials getting permits or permission from a zoning board, your local building trades union, they know how to help there. And so if you have projects that have labor at the table at the very beginning, you've just brought in a very powerful ally. That's not true in parts of the country, but I think that's wise. And it also helps us address an important problem, which is you go to a state like Pennsylvania of benefits you're gonna have, it's gonna be a hard sell for a whole lot of people.

Who.

In the Archdiocese of Atlanta. And I'll hold it up. This is the Laudato SI action plan. This was devised by Archbishop Wilton Gregory, who's now the archbishop in Washington, who made a little news yesterday showing his displeasure that President Trump was coming to a Catholic shrine. But he. A group of scientists at the University of Georgia reached out to him when he was in Atlanta, and they developed this action plan, which has things families can do, things parishes can do. And that has been used now at the Archdiocese of Boston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Savannah, at the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, which was, of course, Dr. King's church. So that was hard work that went into that. And they came up with, I think it's 42 pages that has some tailoring. It gives broad suggestions. But if you don't know how to start, you pick that up and it points you in the right direction, and then you tailor it from there. And then the other thing I would mention is the California bishops. And in these links that you're putting up, Dave, there's some reporting on that that we have at the National Catholic Reporter. They issued last year kind of a localized version of Lavatosi with very particular goals for both church and the wider society, aiming at things like integrating the teaching of Laudato's investment. It's not just divesting it from fossil fuels, but what are you putting your money in? And also institutional operations. The Catholic Church has a big plant. We own a lot of real estate. And I think I Wish looking back 5 years been a focus the first year. And I mean, I'll admit that didn't dawn on me that first of Catholic cemeteries, there are things that you can do that will save the church money on its, you know, after salaries, every church utilities is your second biggest budget item. So I think that's something that we've, we're seeing some progress on and there's room to see more.

Yeah, and that's true. I mean, across many different sectors, making it a practical solution tends to overcome ideological challenges. And one thing you brought up there actually addresses one of the questions we have in our queue. Somebody asked a great question about suggestions on how to turn laudato si into actions in education. The Archdiocese of Atlanta plan that you cited is a great example of that. So I'm going to share a link to that person who asked that and anyone else who's interested linked to that and I think it's an excellent resource. The one I want to flag for Reverend Mariama is how do you share your perspective on climate change? How do you, you know, how do you talk to people through a faith.

Based lens ago, rather than focusing so much on the teaching and the beautiful words we had actually addressed it as an invitation to, to convert our physical plant and lead by example. And I think that's starting. But that really should have been a focus the first year. And I mean, I'll admit that didn't dawn on me that first year either. So I'm coming late to the game also. But you know, there's a lot of Catholic schools, there's a lot of Catholic cemeteries. There are things that you can do that will save the church money on its, you know, after salaries, every church utilities is your second biggest budget item. So I think that's something that we're seeing some progress on and there's room to see more.

Yeah, and that's true. I mean, across many different sectors, making it a practical solution tends to overcome ideological challenges. And one thing you brought up there actually addresses one of the questions we have in our queue. Somebody asked a great question about suggestions on, on how to turn laudato si into actions in education. The Archdiocese of Atlanta plan that you cited is a great example of that. So I'm going to share a link to that in the chat. I'm putting it in right now. So for the person who asked that and anyone else is interested, I've linked to that and I think it's an excellent resource. The next audience question though on our list and the one I want to Flag for Reverend Mariama is how do you share your perspective on climate change? How do you, you know, how do you talk to people through a faith based lens who aren't necessarily ready to receive that message? How do you talk to people who are not as up to date in the science or perhaps, perhaps skeptical about the, the basis of what you're describing?

So for me, in my faith tradition, I just start from the basic tenets of our faith tradition. I usually say to people, well, let's start from Genesis. It says that God spent six days creating the earth. And in those six days we were the last part of the sixth day. It talks about the sun, it talks about the waters, it, it talks about all the plants, it talks about all the animals. And at each point God said it was good. And it doesn't say humans were so good. Screw the rest of it. Like, that's not what it says. And so if that's where we're supposed to start, then who are we to live our lives as if the things that God says are good are not good and we have the right to treat everything else like crap? And then I talk about how we, you know, there is this notion of dominion and this idea that like humans have control, but this, but that notion of dominion. And we could, there are multiple ways to attack it, but the way that I mostly is dominion in only the way that God has dominion. And God's dominion is so loving when we don't even deserve it. And so we are not reflective of that way of being with animals, with plants, with water. We're supposed to be caretakers, not, you know, I come in here and I cut it down and I, you know, throw it here and I do whatever I want to. And so for me particularly, and with some of my more conservative religious, I say, so if that's what God says and we're not doing it, it's sin. So now let's start talking about what we need to do to correct. And so, you know, for me, again, I would say God wouldn't put at the very beginning if it wasn't important, you know, and let's begin to talk through because there's so many things in our text that relate to the natural world, but because we think it's all about us, we don't even pay attention to the things we, you know, the 23rd Psalm, one of people's favorite book, Bible verses, full of these conversations about nature and our connection and the still waters. But all we can think about is ourselves. And that kind of narcissism is why we can't get ourselves together. And I think lots of us feel like whether we may have different analyses as to why human beings and what we should prioritize in terms of what human beings need to shift. But I think we don't have to look outside of our text. And I, quite frankly, I've talked to leaders and I've read in a number of traditions, I don't know of anyone yet that says, you know, there's nothing in my text I can work with. There's nothing in our core beliefs. It's all in conflict. And so for me, it's like, let's just start from what we say we believe, and then if we were really living that, would this be the result?

Michael Shawn, there's a question about divestment, about where the church puts its money. The questioner asks notes that the Church of England has been vocal about divesting funds from fossil fuel investments. Do you know of any similar movement or interest in the Catholic Church in any geography?

Yeah, well, the Vatican announced, actually, we broke a story two weeks ago at NCR that the Vatican for some years has not been invested in fossil fuels. In fact, they went on to say, though as much as we'd like to pat ourselves on the back, they basically have a really conservative investment strategy. They invest in bonds, and I think that was it, or financial securities. I think there's been some. I think the divestment issue is as long as there's a market for fossil fuels, and especially when it's as low as it is now, it's largely symbolic. Now, we're religious folks, so symbols matter. But I think the investment part of it is actually more interesting. Can you get, and this gets back to what I was talking about, the unions before. If religious organizations go in, and this is an industry, the solar industry, that labor has had a hard time breaking into, and we insist on it, we will not only have a more just economy, but we're going to have a more just. The objective of putting in the solar panels is going to be more just for the environment. I like to say to people at this point, the Green New Deal, there was a lot of skepticism about that. And I said, well, whether you think we need it environmentally now after this. Covid19 we need it economically, we need to start putting people back to work. And this is a way to do it so not just look at it as a kind of negative. We need to get our money out of that. But we're at a moment in time where the Government has to take direct intervention and put people to work. What better way than converting the infrastructure? Imagine, to take another example, if we had had leadership at the federal level. After the hurricanes Irma and Maria hit Puerto Rico, devastating that poor island already, you know, sunk in poverty islands, energy infrastructure where the electricity is so expensive that when the ships come into to dock in San Juan harbor, they have generators on board the ships because they don't want to plug in to the harbor. It's that insane because it's all diesel which is brought into the island and they refined it on the south side and most of the population centers are on the north side. You have to go over the mountains, you have a storm, all those electric wires go down. It's insane. And what did they do? They rebuilt the system that they had. This is the definition of insanity because there was no federal leadership. So there's a bunch of opportunities there that we have to seize. And that's again, but I think religions, and this was very much part of the Lotosi message was we need to bring people together to do this. To my mind, a project that has an entrepreneur and labor both working on it. That's a good thing. And a religious leader and civic leaders and local. Mariama was talking about the roots that a church can have in a community. You bring that to the table, you start putting all this stuff together and you can start seeing positive change.

Mariama, Michael, Sean mentioned the potential for federal leadership. What do you see as the ability of faith based groups to influence policy development to mitigate climate change or support legislation for better climate policy?

Well, I have two answers for that. I mean, I think that there are some religious leaders that have an ear at the federal level. I'm not among them, but my denominations probably, I mean, we're probably a little too dark to be heard, but I think there are some religious leaders who I think have an end and they should use that in to raise this issue for me. I have reached a point that I, you know, I just don't believe in hitting my head on a brick wall multiple times. I'll try, I'll try to push it down a few times, but I think there's some point where I recognize my limitations. And so I have chosen that given who I am and what likelihood my voice is to be heard at the federal level is not a good use of my time right now. I was very much engaged previously, but I think that religious leaders who are in red states and religious leaders within denominations that are respected by the current administration should do that work, and for those of us who do not exist in that reality, there's so, so much work that can be done at our state level. As an example, Massachusetts talks a good game about how blue we are. We have a terrible record on environmental justice. We have a terrible record on how much of the money that we give towards clean energy is actually going to low income communities that need it the most. We're not directing the biggest of our clean energy investments to the communities that are struggling the most to pay their electricity bills. That makes actually no sense. So there is much justice work to be done at the state level such that if you are not among the groups that can be heard at the federal level, do not despair. There is still much work to be done.

Well, you say you don't want to bang your head against that wall, but I got a text during the opening, the opening comments you made from one of our attendees saying, mariama White, Hammond for President. I think we're late in the game for that in terms of, but I'm on board still.

I know that everybody else was doing it. I should have just, you know, jumped in last time.

Michael Sean, there was a question about the recent bishops roundtable and, and the question focuses on the idea that the US Bishops don't seem to have the necessary sense of urgency and impact. And I think the questioner was hoping that a pro life community would see this as a pro life issue. And the question is, if the science doesn't move them, what will?

It's, you know, there's been an attempt to cast this as a pro life issue. I think it self evidently is a pro life issue. And yet again, you cannot underestimate the degree in American culture to which political categories have kind of swamped religious categories. And so, and sadly, I think a lot of bishops either are just terrified of that fight, agree with what has happened. But it was pretty disturbing. It was last November at the bishops meeting in November when the president of the conference, Cardinal DiNardo, he was going out, he said, well, yeah, no, I think we all view this as important but not urgent, meaning the environment. So I don't think there's a whole lot of consistency for Catholic Democrats or Catholic Republicans. There's a, you know, everybody's at the cafeteria in the Catholic Church now. And that's unfortunate because I think what you saw in Laudato Si was how all these things do hang together from our core commitment to the idea of the ideas Mariama was talking about, about how we relate to creation, but also the core idea of human dignity, that you treat other humans with dignity. And so I'm not hopeful it's going to change anytime soon. There are, I think, currently 20 open bishoprics out of 170, you hope more than half of them will be kind of Pope Francis Y type guys. But the Catholic Church moves very slowly. Anybody who's looking for, I wish I could say snap, you know, and it's going to be better. It's not. It's going to be a slow, long slog, but there's progress. There's, you know, we at the National Catholic Reporter, we just started a section called Earthbeat to really just focus, you know, journalistic attention on this issue of the intersection of religion and environmental issues, because that's a lot of it. A lot of times it, you know, a lot of it. There are people with bad motives, I think, or at least what I would characterize as wrong motives. There's also people who just don't know. And people are busy and you got to get their attention. Our church is in the best and the worst sense of the word of bureaucracy. So it moves slowly. You have to convince a lot of people and bring a lot of people to move in the same direction. And that's never easy. On the other hand, once it's happening, it's not just one person who could be gone tomorrow. The organization is now moving in that direction. And I think we're incrementally getting there on this issue.

So I just want to note that we have quite a lineup of questions here, and I apologize, we won't be able to get to all of them. I'm trying to consolidate the ones that I can.

So I just can say I'm going to put something in the chat that there is something called the Green Seminaries Initiative. Boston University is doing a lot of work on that. I was on the subcommittee working on that. It's not enough, but there are people moving forward. So that's one question then.

Well, let me pull up another question for you then. Looping back again to your opening comments, I think this is putting you on the spot a little bit. But for the people on this call who want to take, who want to do something about the intersection of ecological injustice, systemic racism, what, what can people do? What. What would you recommend people do as a first step or a next step?

Okay. So I think there's, there's a lot of things to do. So one of the things. And if people want to, they can shoot me an email. I. We have the Green Justice Coalition has an Equity tool. And one of the reasons we created is that people would say, will you sign on to this legislation? And we'd be like, well, how it's going to impact our people? And they were like, we don't know. And we're like, okay, so here's a tool that tells you the questions we're going to ask. Make sure you know the answers to those, because we can't decide. And one of those questions is, how are you working with labor? Does this create good jobs? So I think that there's a series of things people could be doing. They start from, if you already are active on environmental legislation, what is that legislation doing around equity? If it says nothing about equity, let me let you know, generally, it's probably not going to be good for poor people, right. If it says nothing about labor protections, then guess what? It probably won't be good on it. And so how do we take the things that people are already advocating for and make sure they are infused with lots of good, strong justice language? I've been working in conversation with AFL cio. They've been. They're doing some really good work to bring all the unions together to think through what's good. Just transition language. It's not out yet. But I can tell you that people at the forefront of the labor movement are working on this right now. They recognize that things have to shift, but that what they don't want to see is that their people get screwed in the process. Right. So how do we make sure that as we shift from where we are to something new, one, that people who are doing okay for themselves don't find themselves struggling? And two, what about if we prioritize people who are struggling so they actually are doing better on the other side of that? And I think that's one of the things we could look at right now in Covid. Right. There's about to be a bunch of money coming down. I'm part of a coalition of folks who are saying, how do we make sure that the money coming from COVID does three things. One, it actually is good for public health. I don't know. You know, maybe we should make sure that people are not going to get more sick. And, you know, all of us know it doesn't always get down like that. So public health, key public health, public safety. But second, how do we look at the most vulnerable people and make sure that the majority of benefits are going to them because they're also the people most likely to get Covid? And finally, how do we recognize that this shock is just one of many shocks that unfortunately we're in for because we're not doing anything about climate. So how do we make sure that we address Covid in a way that does not exacerbate our climate situation? And one of the things I've said to people all the time, let me tell you, you can make a squeaky whale on the local level, will get the oil right. If you call your town manager, I bet you not that many people are calling your town manager. If you call the people that are in charge of trash in your town and say, I want to have some conversations about how much trash we're collecting, what are we doing to recycling it? And then another question, where are we shipping our trash? Are we sending it to low income communities so that they can get stuck with our toxic waste? So, so I just think that there's so many places that we can start asking tough questions. And I'll tell you, I believe in the statewide and the federal and the big organizing. But you as an individual, if you can even get four friends, can show up in some of these small town city agencies that nobody ever calls and start holding their feet to the fire and making some pretty serious change. But again, I think you got to ask this hard question. Who's getting the benefits and who's getting screwed or the crap, the leftover stuff. And if you ask those questions and you start digging, you will find all sorts of opportunities not only to shift our environmental relationships, but to have some deep and tough conversations about equity. Because racism doesn't happen randomly. It is lots of decisions, policy decisions that get made about who we send our trash to, where we allow our pollution to go. And when you start asking some tough questions right in your own backyard, you have an opportunity to begin shifting some of those dynamics that have been with us for centuries.

Dave, I just want to say there that also that. So Mariama, I think it was talking to, you know, not to question climate scientist types. Okay? The point I want to make to them is when you go to a religious leader, please don't walk in with all the answers. When that first weekend when we had the meetings with Cardinal O' Malley and there was a young, he was a 20 something, he got up and he said, if this is not the most important moral issue in your agenda, you're not morally serious. And I'm looking around the room and there were several people in their 70s there who were very morally serious, who were for whom this was new. And that kind of language is, you know, you're insulting don't insult, walk in and be respectful and listen to their concerns. Also, you know, that's coalition building is done with the ears more than the mouth.

No, that's a great point. And I mean for those people who were new to this, that's what we need. We need more people to be new to this if we're going to, if we're going to solve this. We're coming up on 2:30. So I want to ask a quick hit question to both of you before we hand this back to Heather to close us down. First of all, you both inspire me. I'm just overjoyed to see your faces and to talk to you and appreciate everything you do. Very quickly. What you know, when we met in 2018, we had a lot of conversations about sea level rise, how that was going to impact different areas, different neighborhoods. What science would be helpful, what climate science would either be eye opening or useful to faith leaders in Catholic church or in any faith.

So I'll just name a few things that have really touched my heart. I was in a lecture where someone talked about the phytoplankton in the ocean that produces a good percentage of the oxygen we breathe. And I always knew that, you know, trees and plants. I was totally unaware. And I think science that tells us a story about who we are and tells us about connections we didn't even know we necessarily had can open our hearts up to be more committed to being in solidarity with, in relationship with, fighting for things that we have tended to see as inanimate objects as that thing over there. And I think that's why we are able to treat them in, in my opinion, unholy ways. And so I think in as much as you can, help us to see the richness, the depth and the life of creatures and communities that we disregard, I think it would be really helpful in activating a whole nother group of people who right now feel like it's all about us.

I'll quickly invoke a great Massachusetts native, Tip o' Neill, and say all politics is local. So are all lessons. So I think as much as it is critical that we try to save the Amazon, what might have a better effect? Changing People's Heart is a curriculum for high school students that looks at the shoreline of Massachusetts and says, look, there are towns. We had that religious sister from Hull who had to evacuate one winter, right? Remember, was it Superstorm Sandy? I mean that speaks to people. Cause that person sitting next to me had to leave her house at three in the morning. And we drive by Hull and we see the sign on the way to work. I mean the local, local, local, local.

Thank you. Thank you both. Heather, back to you.

Thank you, all of you. I'm so glad that we were able to have this conversation today. In this particular moment. It was not planned to coincide with what is going on in our country, but I think much needed and very appropriate. As Dave said, inspiring. And as I've seen many people say in the comments, also practical and actionable. So thank you. We've had almost 350 people on this webinar for most of the hour. Thank you to everyone who has joined us. If, as many of you have said, there are aspects of this conversation that you would like to revisit or share with others, please know that it has been recorded and it will be available on our website and our YouTube channel by the end of this week. And as you have registered for this webinar, we'll let you know when that recording is available. Thank you again to our panelists, thank you to our attendees, and. And stay safe and healthy.