Ep 1: Breaking Barriers: Women Leaders in Internal Audit

Welcome to Inspiring Women in Audit, the only podcast celebrating the achievements and journeys of women in the internal audit industry. In each episode we spotlight the extraordinary stories, insights and expertise of these dynamic professionals. Our aim is to amplify their voices, inspiring a new generation of women auditors to share their knowledge, experiences and unique perspectives. Remember to check our show notes for links to our social media channels and to subscribe to the Inspiring Women in Audit newsletter. This podcast is brought to you by i4 Global Results Limited the audit communication Experts dedicated to transforming your audit reporting and your audit results through communication, optimization and collaboration. Now let's dive in to this episode of Inspiring Women in Audit.

Hello everyone and welcome to Inspiring Women in Audit, the podcast that is dedicated to empowering and uplifting women within the internal audit industry. Our podcast series is designed to spotlight the extraordinary journeys, insights and expertise of these women. By amplifying their voices. We aim to encourage women in the audit profession to share their knowledge, experiences and unique perspectives. So join us as we celebrate the contributions of inspiring women worldwide, fostering meaningful connections and driving transformative change. And today is the inaugural episode of Inspiring Women in Audit and I'm excited to have Janitha John with me as my very first guest. Now, Genitha is a seasoned executive and non executive director, CEO, chief audit executive and former chairman of the IIA from 2020 to 2021. She's a thought leader in the audit industry, a Beacon Award winner and a prolific speaker at industry conferences, speaking on subjects that she is passionate about such as esg, creating meaningful relationships with audit stakeholders and how audit can truly add value within the organization. Topics that are near and dear to my heart as well. And Denitha, I want to thank you for joining me and being my very first guest on the Inspiring Women in Audit podcast. Thanks for your support and thanks for your encouragement and welcome.

Thank you so much, Tracey. And I must say a big congratulations on the launch of this Inspiring Woman in Audit initiative. It's really such a remarkable achievement and a significant step, I see, in terms of promoting gender diversity and empowerment within our audit profession and I have no doubt it will pave the way for greater inclusivity and representation. And I must tell you, thank you so much for inviting me. I am deeply honored to be invited as the inaugural speaker for this inspiring initiative and I'm committed to sharing my insights, my experiences, my lessons learned throughout my journey in audit and hopefully impart some sort of knowledge and inspiration to our aspiring young women out there who are embarking on their professional paths. And sometimes it may not Just be young woman. It may be others as well. So once again, congratulations on this wonderful initiative and I look forward to contributing to its success and impact in the days ahead and to celebrate the achievements of inspiring women in audit and paving the way for a more brighter, inclusive future for internal audit. Thank you and congrats once again.

Thank you so much, Sunita. And I know you've been involved in this in various aspects around the world as well, and so that will probably come up at some point in our conversations. And the goal really is to bring women in audit around the world together. And it doesn't mean just women either. Of course. We are happy to have everyone participate in this new initiative that I'm launching. And for those of you who don't know, I met Janita in person for the first time in Dubai at the IAA conference there sponsored by the uae. And we were both, I think, the only two women that had speaking slots on the stage that weren't in a panel discussion. Yeah, so that was, that was very exciting and I was very, very happy to meet you finally in person. We'd been connected on LinkedIn for a while. This is the power of LinkedIn that can connect all of us together. And now we finally get to meet in person in conferences. So it was, it was a wonderful experience and I'm so glad you're here with me today.

Thank you.

So I'm going to dig in, I'm going to dig in, if that's all right.

Yeah, that's perfect.

I wanted to see if you can tell our listeners a little bit about your journey in the field of audit and what led you to become the chairperson, the chairman of the board of the IIA in 2020 and then where you are today, because I know you've got a lot of experience.

Thanks, Tracy. You know, I never really thought of becoming, or it was never in my path to become the chairman of the IIA Global. But, you know, my career path was really, everybody talks about it's, it's never a straight line and it's, it's. You talk about climbing the corporate ladder, I can assure you it's never a corporate ladder. And some, lots of people refer to it as a jungle gym. So for me, in the very beginning it was, it was a toss up. I've been, you know, becoming a chartered accountant. I didn't really know whether I wanted to stay in accounting, whether I wanted to move auditing. So in my early roles I actually juggled a bit between accounting and auditing and probably two, three Years down the line, three years. I think it was down the line when I realized auditing was my passion, you know, and, and that's where I started realizing that there's so much more I can glean from this profession. And when I talk about my career, I don't talk about titles, I talk about the framework of experiences I built over time. And it's more of a journey, not a destination. I think you would have read my bio some time back. I mean, I come from a very poverty stricken background. My working life started very, very early in life at the age of 14 because my dad had become blind at the age of 46. My mom was a housewife. It was quite difficult to run a household where I had five siblings. So the eight of us trying to actually make ends meet. So we all had to start working and try to fend for ourselves and become independent. But I really had quite a bit of experience in terms of challenges, in terms of opportunities and I jumped and I took every opportunity and I swam during my challenges and I, So when I, you know, en route to becoming a chartered accountant, a CPA as many others refer to it when you see in the U.S. i, when I say struggle, you know, it was, it was when my dad became blind, I had to leave university and. But I knew I always wanted to become a Chartered. That was it. Numbers were my game and I was going to get. And I had this very analytical mind and because of where we were from a financial background perspective, it was extremely difficult. So I had applied for a lot of bursaries. I knew I had to do well at school first to actually get all these bursaries. And I ended up with an A aggregate in school and I then was able to pursue my chartered accountancy. I had four or five different bursaries and scholarships. In fact, we actually bought our first TV with the bursary money as well. That was way back in the 90s when TVs came out. Nonetheless, I pursued. I had to work part time, I had to go night school, did my qualification and decided I needed to leave articles because you earn a pittance of a salary. And I wanted to move in the corporate world. I went into property investments, stayed there for a little bit again headhunted, moved into Toyota. Toyota. I was a systems audit manager in internal audit. So I was an accountant in my first job post articles as a financial accountant, then moved into auditing at Toyota and then they were busy with SAP implementation and I thought, oh, okay, that's interesting. I became seconded to the SAP implementation team and I started doing configuration. Nearly became a SEP consultant by the way, but then had an opportunity to join another company in an audit role.

Okay.

So in, so I did SEP configuration, I did internal auditing, Toyota, I did SAP configuration, then moved on into heading up operations as accounts operations manager and a very young executive. I became an executive at the age of 28 and, and it was actually been bullying cash management. So back again into the accounting and stayed there for a little bit and I was heavily pregnant with my. By this time I had married, got my husband, wonderful husband and I was heavily pregnant with my first baby. And I received a call in the same company where I was accounts operations manager to join internal audit. And I was not allowed to travel because it was a late stage of pregnancy. And I remember this chief auditor, Mr. Gladman Nika, he called me and he said if Muhammad can't come to the mountain, the mountain will come to Muhammad. So he came to see me. I lived in a different province and that was it. You know, I went into internal auditing and I never turned back since made the move to the other province. And I became very much known as a change agent in internal. So I was taken into different organizations and moved into different organizations from the perspective of changing and transforming internal. So initially it started off in the utilities, environment, electricity, energy. Then I moved into telecommunications, heading up the internal audit team there. Then I moved into health sector and then from the health sector into financial services which was the banking environment. That was my biggest opportunity. And that's where I spent ten and a half years in internal audit. And I'll give you a little few story here in that I, when I, when I joined the utility company as my first position group internal audit manager, I was actually chosen to do a Harvard senior executive program where two people have the opportunity here to go forward. And I was one of them. And in this Harvard program the one thing that resonated with me was you give yourself a thousand working days in a class, in a thousand working days you should have accomplished what you want and move on. Doesn't mean you move the company, but move on into different jobs, different opportunities. And it so happened I started living that. But when I got to the bank and when I spoke to the CEO and the chief operations officer and I said look, I'm only going to give you a thousand working days, that's four years and that's it, I'm not going to stay longer than that. But the chief operations officer said, no, you know what, we've got different franchises, retail banking, corporate banking, investment banking. So you've got to give me a thousand working days for each one of them.

Oh wow.

And so I, so I paid as long as I did in the bank and then when it was my time to take on the chairmanship role in the iia, I will, I was not able to do both of it and at the same time, remember I, at a very young age I decided to become a non executive director. I became a non executive director from the age of 32 and I sat on different boards, different organizations and wherever I worked as an executive in Internal Audit, it was a prerequisite that I am allowed to actually sit on external boards because this was something I enjoyed doing. And that's where I pursued Chartered Directorship and I became a Chartered Director with the Institute of Directors in South Africa. So I started off serving public sector first as a non exec director and then I was actually headhunted for private sector positions as well. So I struggled. So my 28 years of corporate experience, 17 years of being a non executive director have really given me so much energy, so much exposure, so many learnings, both positive, negative, you know, and it's, it's, it's never smooth sailing. And, and when I, you know, when, when I chose to do my CIA and I did it the other way around, I actually became, I got my QIA alpha and I was interviewed by all these heavy hitters in Internal Audit, you know, the likes of Phil Tarling, Larry Harrington, Charlotte, you know, it was big names, big hitters in Internal Audit that interviewed me and, and they actually saw the potential. So I wasn't told whether I had passed. But you know, all of them congratulated me, spoke to me, kept in touch with me and by that time I was already serving as a volunteer as, as a volunteer in the profession because I saw the merits of doing that, you know, to, to network, to share our purpose, to, to really advocate for the profession and enhance the profession. And I started off serving as, well quite early in my time as, as a head of internal or the Kingdom profession and, and I did my CIA and then I joined the, the executive, then it was called the Executive Committee and yeah, and then no looking back, you know, on the Executive Committee I was really a vocal person. I shared my views, shared my opinions, asked challenging questions, asked difficult questions and, and that's when I landed being the Chairman of the iia. It was such a fantastic, fantastic experience. Yes. Albeit the time during COVID But I must tell you that I may have not been the most traveled person, but I was the one that had the biggest reach, no doubt, because I was able to do and reach people virtually. And I've made a schedule of that Bible. So, you know, in terms of. I had a reach of about 30,000 people across 33 different territories in the IIA, and it was fantastic. And that's when I realized that the world is so huge, there's so much more than South Africa. You know, the world is borderless. And if you ask me where I am now, I am actually, like I mentioned to you, I'm sitting in Saudi Arabia. I am doing some consulting work here in Saudi Arabia with big companies in Saudi at the moment. I trained quite a few internal auditors. I'm now doing some board training on esg, board effectiveness, as well as on lessons in. In corporate failure and some strategic aspects as well. I actually leave here on Sunday night to get to Qatar where they're having their international conference as well. And I chaired in quite a few panel sessions at that. That event. So where I am now, I'm doing a lot of consulting work globally. This. I do a lot of work for the Institute of Directors in the Caribbean as well. I spent some time consulting for six months in the Caribbean. And, yeah, so there's a lot of work out there and a lot still to be done in terms of enhancing the profession, enhancing the entire governance ecosystem, working with people who don't really see the potential of audit and enabling people to do that. And that's where I am at the moment. I'm loving it, absolutely loving it.

Well, it sounds like you're loving it. It sounds like you've been all over the world virtually and in person. I love that you're still focused on helping internal audit create more. Right. To transform and to create more and to help organizations do more and create more as well. And I think it takes a certain mindset to do that, which I can see when you talk about your background and where you started from and where you are today, that takes resilience and it takes persistence and motivation. Internal motivation. Right. It doesn't come externally because I think the external motivations only last for so long. So how do you maintain that resilience, persistence and motivation, despite the three decades that you've been at this and despite, you know, the challenges that internal audit has been facing.

So, you know, when you talk about persistence and resilience, you know, I look at the mottos that I live by in my life, and one is persistence pays profits, so stay determined to the cause you know, make sure you are ambitious and you really, you really go for things. So really persevere and I'm going to take you through some of the aspects that you, that I'll talk about. And when you talk about resilience, another one is use your, another one of my mottos is use your setbacks as setups for success. Because yet in life we're going to experience challenges. Yes, we're going to have obstacles, but it's about how you change those challenges into opportunities. So, and the one other thing that I've really learned is, and I'm going to tell you why, the strategies, the combination of strategies is that my other motto, my third motto is your competence makes you more confident. So competence leads to confidence. So when I talk about my strategies in terms of well being, in terms of my resilience, in terms of motivation, we work in a very demanding field. Internal audit is not a popular job. We work in fast changing environments. So you have to have a combination of strategies. Now, continuous learning, when I say competence builds confidence, continuous learning is key. You've got to stay updated in terms of what's happening in the industry, in terms of regulation, in terms of best practices to give yourself that opportunity. Invest in yourself, like Larry Harrington will say. That was his theme, by the way. Invest in yourself. My team was reimagining resilience. And that's about how you actually change those challenges that we face on a daily basis into opportunities. Adaptability. You've got to be able to adapt to new technologies, be tech savvy. In terms of the business environment, what is happening, networking, I cannot stress how important that is. You've got to build a strong professional network within the audit community, the outside community, the accountants, actuaries, connecting with peers, mentors. Because what I see happening is, you know, there's a convergence of different disciplines in organization. And when I talk a little bit about combined assurance, integrated assurance, I mean today I had a call from somebody in the uae. Can you come and actually help us with implementing combined assurance in our organization? We struggling. So it's about that networking, work life balance is so key. I'm going to talk about it a little bit later on as well, you know, because as women you want to prioritize your well being. You want to have a healthy work life balance. You've got to be selfish with your time, you've got to set boundaries, you've got to take breaks, you've got to engage in outside activities, you know, not just work related. So you end, you end up being Mentally and physically strong. Because like I say, we have a very challenging, fast paced environment. Auditing is a wonderful opportunity in terms of growth and exposure, but equally so, it can drain you. And you must never feel shy of seeking support now, seeking support from colleagues, from supervisors, from people that you work with, or even professional consultants, you know, counselors. Asking for help for me is a, is a sign of strength, it's not a weakness. And, and celebrate your achievements. I think you and I spoke about this at length when we were in the UAE as well. Having that positive mindset, making sure you care for yourself, introspection, self reflection. So utilize, reflect on your experiences, your time with your loved ones, be in the moment and extract those lessons. So really, if you try to incorporate all of those strategies into your routine, your resilience and motivation will really be in a space of comfort. It'll help you navigate the challenges, it'll help you thrive in this fast changing environment that we call the internal audit. So yeah, I generally talk about my trials, my truths and my triumphs. It's all because you're able to reflect. You're able to have that introspection, you're able to have that healthy work life balance. You're continuously learning, you're putting your hand up to take on new tasks, new challenges. I mean, I don't know if I mentioned you. I only learned how to swim when I was 39, 14 years old. You know, guess I'm giving away my.

I want to jump, I want to jump in there because I learned to swim when I was 43.

Okay, there we go.

So I was wondering what motivated you at 39 to learn to swim?

And it's a funny story actually. You know, we were taking a local flight between the two provinces that I was born in and where I'm currently based in South Africa and now having two daughters. And you know when the, when the hostess comes on and says and gives messages, she used to always have, they used to always have a fun take on it. And there's actually an ocean component in the flight. And this hostess mentioned, those of you who can swim, we want you to sit on the left. Those of you who can't swim, we want you to sit on the right. And this alarmed my daughters, my babies. And they then said to me, no, mommy, because we used to go for swimming, you're going to join us, you're going to learn how to swim. And they didn't want to have separation from the mommy when sitting on a plane. It was just meant as a joke. But Obviously frightened my kids. Yeah, Yeah.

I think it would have frightened me if I was on the plane at the same time, too, because I'm thinking if the plane goes down in the water, I really wonder what the survival rate might be depending on circumstances, and would it really matter if I could swim?

What motivated you to learn how to spend each morning?

What motivated me was, I think, on some level, survival. I had some people in my life who were not supportive and I wasn't sure how to. At the time, I wasn't sure how to break free. Three of these relationships, and three of them were work relationships and one of them was a personal relationship. And when I decided to swim, I'm not sure what the actual motivation was, but when I was swimming, I was so afraid of drowning and I was in the wrong class. I was in a beginner crawl course and I was way over my head. Everyone knew how to swim who was in the course. I couldn't swim at all. And so every time I went to the lessons and I went to all of them, it was, for me, all about survival. And so I had to focus on not drowning in every class. And what that enabled me to do was to break free of all of those relationships. So I like to say that year I lost a thousand pounds because each of them weighed about 250 pounds.

That's a lovely story, actually. And literally and figuratively, you actually swimming enabled you to do so much in your life.

Yeah, it really.

It really did.

And because of that, I was able to launch my business and. And create, just create, soar. And. And so whatever it takes for anyone who's listening out there, you know, whatever is weighing you down, I think it starts with one decision and then the persistence and the resilience and the belief in yourself. Yeah. And out of all of that came a whole different mindset for me. So when you were speaking about those, your. Your trials. I haven't. I have it written down. Trials, truths and triumphs. I was thinking it's a mindset, right?

Yes, absolutely, a mindset.

And. And when you look at, are they obstacles or are they opportunities? And I think that is so, so critical to being successful and to soaring today. Whatever. Whatever your success looks like, you know, the persistence, what was your pays?

Profits.

But profits. Profits will be different for everyone. It could be their relationships, it could be financial, it could be. It could be work, life, balance. It could be where in the world they're living. It could be what their position is or what their function is at the company. Are they still an Audit, are they doing something else? So I, I look at it as, however people define their own success, it's absolutely fine, just go for it and believe in yourself and have the mindset that you can do it. Get up every day and believe that you can do it. So we've digressed a little bit, I think, from my original question to you.

But these things, I think like you say, is not just monetary, it is the self gratification you feel personally when you achieve something. You know, when you, it's, it's, it's that success when it hits you, it's, it's that self gratification. So really for me that was what it was. It was nothing to do with monetary aspects. It was really persisting, staying the course, staying determined and achieving what I wanted to achieve, no matter how difficult it was. And you know when you talk about ridding yourself of extra pounds and weight and really things that drag you down, I mean when I left the bank I was headhunted for a position and that was a different position. It was in the private sector and it was to be a regulator of external audit. And there I actually encountered the dark side of power. It was amazing, something that I didn't see in my 20 some odd years of experience. But the dark side of power still prevails in organizations today and institutions today. But you need to be able to pick it up and move away from it as quick as possible. It was difficult. You have to let it go and you got to make those tough decisions. It was a crazy time. But you will experience things like that. But you've got to have that ability to really see it and find it before it's too late and believe that.

Even if you don't have the parachute in your hand at this moment, you can build it on the way saying absolutely, that's, that's also a mindset because I, I truly believe if you don't think you can, you can't. And, and I know I personally get really frustrated when someone says to me, oh, oh, maybe you can't or maybe they won't let you, or maybe they won't be there, or maybe this or maybe that. And I think what if they will be there? What if they say yes, what if it is possible? We won't know unless we ask or unless we try.

And that's how we make more, you know. And I'll tell you another while linking back to that. Now you say that you've got to ask, you've got to, you've got to take that step and ask the difficult questions. You know, when you say about work life balance, for me, it was never about work life balance. It was work life integration. So as women, we generally fear asking the permission to do something. You know, I had such a. I had great individuals that I worked for. And I was able to pick up the phone and say to the CEO of the bank, my daughter is playing piano today or she's playing netball today. I can't come in for the meeting or I need to go out or step out. And he will say, go for it, Mom. There will be some that will say to you, no, you can't do it. And you need to decide how you actually gonna integrate if those things don't work out. If there's people that are old school, try and educate, try to change behaviors. Sometimes it's tough to do, but then you need to walk away from a situation that doesn't allow you to integrate your work life. And I think I'm glad that Covid happened, because Covid actually forced organizations to do some of these things that they wouldn't have even attempted to do.

It really, really did. Because I remember before, before I left the company I last worked for, I was working remotely anyway, and it didn't sit well with management. And there was a lot of discussion and a lot of pressure. And now you have to fill out a timesheet to track your time, which was never satisfactorily filled out, I can tell you. And I think then. So that was perhaps 2012. 2012.

Ish.

And then when I look 10 years later, where we, where we are today. Yeah. And we've all survived and we've thrived even. It's just incredible. And the opportunities it has created for families, for parents to create a better life for their family, for their children, for themselves to be integrated. I think it's fantastic. I think it's fantastic.

I think back when, when I became a chief audit exit quite young, I. My, My staff voted for me to be one of the most prolific leaders. And in their motivation, they had actually written the fact that I allowed them to work anywhere, anytime, as long as the quality of the output was not impacted.

Yeah.

And timeliness was important. So they knew where I stood, where I came from. So again, if, you know, go back to the stuff, don't. Don't sit back and be fearful. Ask the question. It's only when you ask, when you know the answer.

And really to have done that when you were first a young cae, that takes vision. Right.

It's Difficult. It's challenging, but you've got to have the tenacity to ask.

Exactly, exactly.

Right.

So given all of your vast experience, is there one project or initiative that is near and dear to your heart, within the bounds of this audit industry that we're talking about, that you can share with us?

There's just so many of them. I have done so many things in terms of projects and initiatives and changing mindsets and leading teams. But as I mentioned to you earlier, the biggest one for me was when I became the chairman of the IIA and launching my theme of reimagining resilience, which I see now. Resilience is a word that's used extensively in the audit profession. In fact, it's used in companies, business models as well. And Maya was reimagining resilience with tact T, A C, T, T. Obviously, for the audit profession, I felt it's so important to consider embracing technology, being agile in the things we do and the way we do it in our mindset, in our tools, in our practices. Collaboration is an aspect for me that became a strategic attribute for internal audit. I'm sure you heard me speak about the concept of innate intelligence, where I talk about IQ and EQ and CQ and AQ and tq. Many people will actually know me for that. I know when you're at school, you get examined and you get a number. Your IQ is this number and this is how intelligent you are as an individual. When you get into the corporate world, it's your eq. EQ is how your mind works with your emotions, how your mind works with individual intelligence. And then the CQ aspect is so key for me because we, we need, and the CQ for me stands for collaborative, Cultural, Connective, Collective Intelligence. Each one of us are hired in organizations because of our uniqueness, our own experiences, our own competencies. But how do we harness the intelligence of all to create value for our organization? So CQ is something that I elaborated a lot on when it came to collaboration within the TACT space. Because to be resilient, you've got to be able to tap into the skills of others. And then the last ET was around talent, making sure you up to speed. Like I said to you, from a continuous learning perspective doesn't mean sitting in a lecture room, but actually putting your hand up, taking on difficult aspects or challenges or different projects in the organization and expanding and growing yourself. I think with COVID people were able to learn online, pick up certificates online, challenge each other online. And the last one is Tenacity Tenacity is, as auditors, we've got to share our views and opinions without fear, favor or retribution, you know, and increasingly we're serving the public interest more. I know we were struggling in terms of understanding the public interest aspect, but when we talk about esg, we talk about sustainability, these things are all coming to the fore. And as auditors, we've got to be tenacious. So reimagining resilience with tact became quite important for me from a project or initiative that I've led. And I'm actually very proud in terms of how it's being embraced within the audit profession. I look at the new standards now as well. A lot of it is actually referring to some of these aspects that we gotta be appraised of. We've got to stay attuned to. So there's a lot that I've done. I mean, another one is sharing my experiences. A very challenging experience I had when Patty Miller and Larry Rittenberg were actually doing the book Politics and Internal Auditing. I was actually one of the case studies there. And reason being, I had a difficult time with my then chairman of the audit committee. And I was not one that was going to relent because I felt that it was a governance failure if my voice was not heard in an audit committee meeting. And that's where I was stopped, in an audit committee meeting. And I decided that I will not let it go. I decided to use my recourse and I stepped up. I wrote a letter to the board chairman and I. And I mentioned what happened and he actually mediated a session between my audit committee chairman and myself. And, you know, my audit committee chairman then, we such good friends today that we still keep intact. Actually, he was, he was at the World bank, he's based in Washington, and we still keep in contact with each other. And the one thing he said to me was, iron sharpens iron. So again, being brave, being tenacious, raising your voice, being heard, no matter how difficult it is. And those are the lessons for me. So reimagining resilience with key project. Many things that I was involved in that I'd love to share more of, but I'm sure we'd have other opportunities to go through that as well.

So run us through tact again. So was there's technology, collaboration, agility, talent, tenacity.

Yes, you do. So it's the agility, collaboration, talent and tenacity.

I think that's brilliant. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. And I, I think, you know, when, when you do, when one does stand up for oneself. And one does ask questions and one does ask to be heard. It helps internal audit innovates.

Absolutely. So really, for me, that's. That is so important. You know, the part leading to innovation, you've got to have those attributes that are going to actually help you get, and that's going to create the efficiencies in internal audit. That's going to create the smarter way of thinking, smarter way of working.

So, yeah, and that's what I think we need to do, because auditors, to be curious, I think, is a great trait of auditors, but I think they should also not just be curious about what's happening with the audit work that they're performing, but also how that work is being performed and the different ways that we can become more productive and optimize what we're doing and work smarter, not harder.

You're good. That's it.

All right. International Women's Day is coming up. Fast approaching. May I ask, what's your perspective on diversity and inclusion within the audit profession? And are there more steps that we can take as an industry to support diversity and specifically, as with this podcast, to raise women's voices within the industry?

Yeah. So look, for me, diversity and inclusion are very crucial aspects of any profession, including the audit profession, obviously, because it fosters a more equitable, inclusive workplace. It brings about a range of perspectives and experiences that enhances decision making and problem solving. And we know in the audit profession, right, like I said, it's a very challenging environment. We normally do very complex analysis and decision making, and you can benefit from diverse viewpoints. Now, when I was at the bank, we actually started an initiative called the let's Connect initiative. And we focus on four aspects, starting again with a C, like you see, and I love the C. And we had four pillars around consciousness, community, conversations, and connections. So it was actually around how do we create more gender consciousness in the workplace? How do we create that community? What types of conversations need to take place between various parties? And how do you cultivate the connections that you have in an organization? So, you know, there's so many steps that can be taken, and I really implore women to raise their voices. It's promote diversity initiatives. Whether it's around recruitment, retaining, promoting women from underrepresented communities and groups, mentorship programs, participate in them for organizations to look at leadership development opportunities, create that inclusive environment. So you want to create that sense of community, you know, where you understand the culture of various people that work for you, they respected, they valued, they're part of your Promises you have training that is all inclusive. Addressing unconscious biasness. That's that whole aspect around people have views that are inculcated in them from a very young age. And it kind of sticks with them. You know, how do you get people to be a lot more conscious about what they're doing, how they're recruiting, what type of people they're looking for, how do they do succession planning? Again, another aspect that women need to have their voice heard on is flexible work arrangements. That's why I said to you, you know, with COVID it actually forced organizations to show that it can work. It did work. Okay, but there's more that can be done because what it does, at the end of the day, it increases the retention rate, pay parity, equal pay, practice of make sure that that is being done in organizations. Do your regular audits and help identify and address disparities. Like in South Africa, we have government getting involved in terms of BE charters, Black Economic Empowerment charters, to ensure that there's pay parity in the workplace itself. Not just from a gender perspective, but also from the perspective of job and positions that people hold. Getting leadership support when you have that tone at the top. I often talk about tone at the top, tuning the middle and the rhythm on the dance floor. Getting leadership support for some of these initiatives. It's so key. When we launched our let's Connect initiative, I had a work. And it so happened that my let's Connect launch was done on International Women's Day, by the way. And I had all senior execs, chief executive officer, I had people, non exec directors, I had board chairman come in and talk to people that actually attended. We had a lot of women invited. We had men coming in, men who promoted the he for she campaign. I think you've heard of that. We've got something called the Lionesses for Africa. And I think increasingly what we have to do when we network and we are visible is how do we start enforcing a she for her campaign? Because you talk about this glass ceiling and sometimes I've seen women actually holding back other women rather than putting their hand down to say, I'm going to help you. So supporting career development is also an area that's very important. So there's lots of little initiatives and measures that organizations and people can undertake. But it's really having a strong voice to bring these aspects forward. And I have, as I said to you earlier, I've had very challenging environments where you've had women. Actually, no, I'm not interested. I've seen it well, I'm a big.

I'm a big believer in women supporting women. Of course, everyone's supporting everyone. I don't want to leave anyone out from that, but. But also I do. I do think women supporting women on some level. One of the reasons that I started this podcast, so Inspiring Women Audit, comes from a couple of things. One is my belief in us raising each other up, whether, no matter your gender, no matter where you come from. But I spoke in 2019 at the Women in Audit Leadership Forum hosted by the iia, and it was a wonderful experience. It was a small conference, for lack of a better word. It was virtual, but it was. It was a wonderful experience and it ignited something in me that has been now simmering for five years, right, on how to. Or almost five years on how. How to promote women's voices. And then when I was doing the Audit Room with Trent Russell, very successful podcast series that we launched, I guess about three years ago now. And it was very easy to find men, for lack of a better word, to come and join the Audit Room as a guest speaker. It was more challenging to find women. And I did a lot of research online to find women to bring into the Audit Room. And then there was maybe a little more resistance sometimes from women than men. And I'm not sure why that was, but I want to create a space for women to have their voices be heard, a safe space.

And I must tell you, I loved the Audit Room podcast. I love being part of it. And I really congratulate you and Trent for actually taking it up and getting it done. And like you say, you saw a lot of men there. And that's why I said to, you know, there's so many campaigns that he for she and whatever for me, we need a she for her. Why not? And this is it now. This is it. And that's why when we had that initial chat, and I know your idea, you submitting for five years, but when you and I chatted in the uae, I thought to myself, you know, fantastic, because in my visits and in my sessions that I've had around the world, everybody's been talking about it, there's not been any action. The one aspect I've mentioned to India, they've launched a woman of Worth, the Wow initiative, which I thought was fantastic, but again, it was launched during COVID so I just want to touch base, see how they're doing. Then there was also interest in the EU as well. So there are women, a lot of women around the world that want to actually get involved that want to share experience, you know, and I think this is fantastic. This is great. I mean, I'm sure in this we can find a lot of emerging woman leaders as well in the position, some of them that have emerged as well, but have been in the background for such a long time. So really, I mean, look out and stay tuned. There's a lot more to come on this. And once again, congratulations on launching it.

Well, thank you. Listen, I've got another question that I want to ask you before we start to wrap up.

There's such a huge paradigm shift in terms of what's happening in economies, what's happening in organizations and geographies itself. So if you ask me for three things that I want to leave people with and leave women with in particular, it's around aspects of personal mastery, agility, adaptability, innovativeness. That needs to come through. So when you say three, I am going to say to you, to be a successful leader, okay, you've got to name it, you've got to claim it and you've got to aim at it. So your name it is become self aware. Know your environments, know your spheres of influence, right? Know what value you bring, what you need to be at your best. So I always say you the harbinger of yourself. You're the one that's going to market yourself. So self awareness is key. What's your passion? What's your value drivers? What's your strengths, your achievements? There are moments where you feel motivated. Do you have a mentor, for example, where do you feel valued? Where do you feel appreciated? That's around naming it. That's the self awareness aspect. Clarity is around where you've got the self realization. How do you engage with people? How do you express yourself? Your communication abilities, and I know you love around, you do a lot around communication. You can't be impactful, you know, does it impact you? Does it hinder you? It's a little bit of introspection still. But you need to identify what's your barriers, you know, and, and give yourself a chance because it's okay to make mistakes. You've got to be forgiving at times. And I talk to my daughters about this, you know, sometimes they, they take it so hard and they so hard on themselves, they put themselves under so much of pressure. Be aware of resistance, be aware of what's working, what's not working. Like you said, you know, zap yourself, take away the stuff that rid yourself of things that make you feel heavy and look at negative aspects that you experience, but use those setbacks as opportunities. And then when I say aim at it now you've got to become a lot more self regulated, okay? How do you flex your talents? How do you sell that? How do you intentionally aim at it? How do you want to live that purpose that fulfills life? You know that saying, what's it, get up, dress up, show up. Okay, Be deliberate, be deliberate in terms of creating your own life experience. Create meaningful relationships, you know, have your own personal development plan. And it's not going to be a straight line, it's never going to be a trick straight line. Okay? So it's your name it, claim it and aim at it. It's an old cliched aspect, but really it works. And it's, it's, it's about your ambition. You're in your core. How are you able to bring these things to the fore? Like I say to people, I've learned, I've grown, I've evolved. And I'm so grateful for every person who's crossed my path, whether it was positive, negative, you know, I have learned from these were all defining moments in my life, all defining my team.

Tunitha, what do you think are the most important skills for success in the audit industry today?

So here, you know, there's a lot of aspects and I think we've spoken a lot through it as well. Success in the audit industry requires a combination of technical expertise, critical thinking skills and effective communication, attention to detail, etc. But I've sort of, you know, I like formulas, right? So I call it my C to the Power 6. Communication, balanced, impactful reporting. Know your audience, engage your audience. Understand your stakeholder expectations. How do you calibrate those expectations? Expectations. Who's your recourse? How do you deliver on those expectations? How do you continually improve? And there's so many people out there that can help you with impactful reporting. So One of the Cs is around communication when we're looking at skills for success. Another C is your character. Like I mentioned, auditing is not a popular job, okay? It's challenging. So you've got to be captivating in your, in your engagements. Be respectful, have a resolute character, be honest, have that integrity, you know, not that adaptability, but not too flexible. You can't be too flexible as an auditor. Another C is the critical thinker. So have that ability to see the big picture, but also the ability to get your hands dirty. I often talk about drone mentality and that drone mentality enhances your technical knowledge in an environment and in this day and age. You've got to be a collaborator. I've said to you, imagining resilience with tact and collaboration being a strategic initiative. How do you align with others? How do you harness talent of people in the ecosystem we work with? How do you leverage combined assurance and three lines model? Another C is your client and customer excellence. So you define what their expectations are. But how do you maintain a positive relationship with your clients? How do you understand? How do you demonstrate your understanding of their business operations? How do you bring forth your business acumen and address their concerns and deliver on your on your value added services? And then the last C is that continuous selling. It's so critical for us to learn, unlearn, relearn and continuously learn as individuals. So that for me are the most important qualities and skills for success in the audit space itself.

Tracy, I love that see to the power of six. And truly I think for me they all hinge around self awareness and communication skills.

Absolutely. And as I say, communication is so key because that's where you're able to share your knowledge, get your voice heard and learn about people's characters. You know, and having that, that, that type of character, that learning, the disposition, the resoluteness, all of it comes with communication.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Sunita for taking this time and spending it with me on my very first episode of Inspiring Women in Audit. I'm grateful to you, I'm grateful that we met in Dubai and very, very happy to have you in my life, to be frank. So thank you.

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