Ep 7: Creating New Traditions: Leading Excellence, and Diversity in Internal Audit

Welcome to Inspiring Women in Audit, the only podcast celebrating the achievements and journeys of women in the internal audit industry. In each episode we spotlight the extraordinary stories, insights and expertise of these dynamic professionals. Our aim is to amplify their voices, inspiring a new generation of women auditors to share their knowledge, experiences and unique perspectives. Remember to check our show notes for links to our social media channels and to subscribe to the Inspiring Women in Audit newsletter. This podcast is brought to you by i4 Global Results Limited the audit communication experts dedicated to transforming your audit reporting and your audit results through communication, optimization and collaboration. Now let's dive in to this episode of Inspiring Women in Audit.

Before you jump into the podcast, I'd like to share some wonderful news with you. When I interviewed Zahra, she was the Group Chief Audit Executive at asiad in Oman. Two days after we recorded, she was appointed as the Deputy Chairman of the State Financial and Administrative Audit Authority for Auditing Institutions, Investments and companies with a Special grade. It was my honor to interview Her Excellency, as she is now known as and now let's dive into the Podcast welcome everyone to Inspiring Women in Audit, the podcast that is dedicated to empowering and uplifting women within the internal audit industry. By amplifying their voices, we aim to encourage women in the audit profession to share their knowledge, experiences and unique perspectives. I'm your host, Tracy Marquardt, and I'm excited today to have my guest, Zahra Al Lawati with me now. Zahra is the Group Chief Audit Executive at Oman's flagship logistic group, Asayed. I know you're going to correct me with that pronunciation, and I'll let you tell us more about the group during the conversation. And azara has over 14 years of experience in internal auditing. She serves as a Board Member and Chair of the Audit Committee at the Small and Medium Enterprises Development Fund in Oman, and she was selected for the Global Leadership Accelerator program by Maritime CEO sponsored by the International Maritime Organization with only 30 participants chosen worldwide in 2021. So that's pretty amazing. She also holds a number of degrees, a Master of Science in Audit Management and Consultancy from Birmingham City University in the uk, a Bachelor of Science from the University of Queensland in Australia, and is a graduate of the Advanced Management Program from IESE Business School at the University of Navarre in Spain. She holds a CIA, a CFE and a crma, and if I'm not mistaken, there are a couple more there as well. On your LinkedIn profile, you've been invited to participate in a roundtable discussion for the first Risk and Focus Report 2025 for the Middle east issued by the IAA Global. You're a regular speaker at industry conferences and I just wanted to take a moment to celebrate you, Zara, that you are the first woman to hold the position of cheat of group Chief Audit Executive at your organization. Now that's quite a list of accomplishments. So I want to welcome you to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Tracy. When making it an unless, yes, it does sound quiet to let it be, but that takes quite a number of years. So much sleepless nights and a lot of efforts to get there. I'm very, very happy to be on your podcast and I think this movement that you're creating is really vital, especially given the accessibility of social media. We can do much more compared to maybe 10, 15 years back. Yeah. And I'm always happy to support to also be, you know, part of such great movements, especially if we can make any, any amount of change in the, in the industry. Absolutely.

Wonderful. Well, thank you again for joining me. And I want to start by asking you about your journey to internal audit. I always find it fascinating how we get where we are today and sort of what inspired us. So what drew you to internal audit back in the beginning and what keeps you motivated to stay in the audit industry?

Okay, so I get asked this question in interviews usually because it's quite funny how I started this career. I actually studied science as a bachelor's. I earned a full scholarship from the government and that was 24 years ago and it was in the field of science, biology actually. And I graduated, worked in the field as well for three years and I loved it so much. It actually gave me sense of achievement. When you're working closely with a humanitarian kind of field like biology and helping people actually tangibly, but then not always. You don't always get the career aspirations with the same self senses. So for me then I decided I would always try to get that craving covered. But then I also want to have the career growth and Oman Those days, back 20 years ago, it wasn't very easy to get that career, you know, growth in terms of in the government sector. So then I just decided I'm generally passionate about, you know, commercial, the business side. Those days were the economic crisis in 2008. 9. My husband comes from that industry as well. We used to chat a lot and then I just shifted completely and moved to the banking sector. So my the shortest answer, I think internal audit chose me rather than me choosing it because they did an assessment and they then out of the assessment, they said you would fit more in risk management and internal audit. And then that's how I got into internal audit. And I think I've been loving it ever since. Maybe not as much in the banking industry, I would say, because I'm again very passionate about tangible change and tangible impacts. And in the bank as internal auditors, it is maybe lesser. It has that impact, of course, but sometimes I feel it was lesser given that these industries, the financial, are very, very sophisticated already. So auditors can have their small, nice touches to be paintings. But when you work in different industries like the public sector in the country for government organizations, you know, moving the mindset from a subsidized setup to commercialized setup, I think I found my passion there when I moved to the shipping company back in 2015. And then from there I got my role as group chief audit executive in 2017 to lead decentralized function. So it chose me. But I was happy for the choice and I think I'm sticking around for some time.

That's super. I love that you say that audit shows you. And I always say, you know, once, once an auditor, always an auditor. So no matter where you go in the future, should you decide to do something else, you'll always have that in your becomes, you know, part of our DNA, I think.

Yep.

Yeah, that's super. So I was wondering if you could, number one, maybe give us a little bit of information just about the organization that you work for, just to give context to the rest of the questions. Because then I want to dive in and ask you about internal audit there. But first, maybe you can just give us a short introduction to your organization.

So this sounds slightly overwhelming when I explain our organization. So back in 2017, the government decided to create holding companies out of government supported companies. So because these companies were there to bring the commercialized aspect, but then because the country wanted to grow in certain industries and aspects, they said that we will be funding these companies. But then, you know, when you're funding a company, the commercial feel and drive kind of gets the backseat because you're always covered when it comes to that. So then asiad was formed as a logistic holding, part of the, as a logistics arm of the government as well, having all the, you know, logistics related companies under its umbrella. So when I say logistics is not only directly logistics, but also enablers to logistics and anything that is moving actually. So moving on ground, moving in the sea, moving as fairies and all, but not in the air. That was, you know, a different holding in that time. So then the. The companies we had under. So we had the shipping company, Oman Shipping Company. We had Oman Dry dock company. We had the ports management company, which oversee. We oversee three smaller ports, not the major ones. We also have the postal and express services and the free zones. All of this is under the centralized internal audit. Internal audit in our group is the only fully centralized setup. And that was a very, very challenging establishment of the unit at the beginning in 2017 when we took over. But the learning has been immense, immense since then. Absolutely.

I imagine it has because there's quite a few, I would say, you know, different pieces to that, logistics and transportation. Because you have not just moving goods, but, you know, getting people around the country as well. So. Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Well, can you tell us about the role of internal audit at Assad? I know you align internal audit with the business and the business objectives and that you want to bring positive change to the organization. So what does that look like for you in practice?

Yeah, so just take a step back here before I answer the question. For me as a person, adding value and making change is the key drive. So what keeps me awake at night or what makes me get up in the morning with that motivation, what will keep me surviving with eight different executive management and different CEOs in the beginning is the power that I had from the very beginning. I would say the empowerment from the audit committee, from the board as well as from the executive management. And for me, I'm extremely thankful because I think that's more of a luck that you get that support from all the stakeholders. So for me, this value add is very, very important. And wherever I am, whatever work I do, it's always important that I can see something is happening. So when it comes to internal audit in our group, we have again, these are, when I say government related businesses and companies, we call them public companies. Right. So it's actually the money of the people. So the more good we do, the more the government will be benefiting and then the more because we don't have the tax system that can take directly and then put back to the community that, you know, tax is not there. Now it's a corporate tax and withholding taxes is of course there. But then it's an oil country, so we have been relying quite a bit on the oil revenues and all. So for me, when I joined the shipping company, at the beginning, I'm on shipping company. What are the assets that we are having? How are we managing these assets as internal auditors? Tracy, That I can go check all the Policies have my non compliance, beautiful list and brag about all the problems I could find in the business. And unfortunately still many auditors have that mindset. But for me, I would on the contrary check whether that policy is hindering management from achieving their business objectives. Maybe I have too much governance that is slowing decision in the organization because governance has to be a right. So governance is, is an element of transparency, basically transparency and openness. So if I have, that doesn't mean that I need to have five different committees and seven different committees to approve one transaction. So I would always assess the time that we took to make that decision and did that impact what if I entered earlier and then I will make an opportunity loss. I lost this much because we entered late. And as auditors I think why not? We can do that. It's okay. It's not only about hindsight, it's not only about going back into the old files and folders. And you did this right, you did this wrong. I mean we're stopping doing this with our kids nowadays and moving into the more forward looking approach. But you are strong, you can do better. And I think as auditors, why don't we do that? It is better for me and I'm very, very glad that the IIA has now had, you know, after revamping the standards, there are now a lot focusing on the business aspects. With an internal audit it will take time for the mindset to shift and change. But for me this is very, very important now. For example, what kinds of audits we do in this big group. Of course it has to be a risk based audit plan, right? Because we cannot audit many areas in a given year. So we do around 30 to 35 audits a year. But we have a quarterly review of the plan depending on the emerging risk. Especially we are in this region now, the issues in the Red Sea, the war in Gaza, many aspects. And we are in the transportation segment, so our vessels are around the world. So we have to do these assessments every now and then and see where us as auditors, yes, the management will have the headache, but then we should share some portion of that headache as well. Otherwise we will not have the same feel that they have to make the changes. So we need to have that feel to make a change as well. So when it comes to the dry dock businesses, we do the commercial audit, we look into all the projects that are there, how much the margins are there, where can we do better? The utilization of the yard, we do production audit, we look into all the technical parts and aspects we do all HSE related audits for all of the companies. When it comes to shipping, we do the technical audits. I have also sailed on an LNG liquefied natural gas vessel in 2019 for four days from Singapore to Gali and Sri Lanka. Just to have a feel, I'm here giving them my report. But what do I know about sailing? I'm here giving a report about the seafarers, about what they need and what they don't need. But no, I have to be there to experience it. So for me that has been one of the highlights of my career and I think it gave me a lot of perspective and I think Tracy, it's also happening a lot. When we reach the chief level in our functions, we stop being hands on. So we stop putting our boots on, we stop putting our helmets on. But I discourage this. I on the contrary, encourage all chiefs to be there to go and visit. For me, I would always visit the warehouses in the remote areas. It doesn't need to be a field work audit but our presence does matter in multiple aspects for us to have the feel of the people on ground but also for the management to feel that there is real care from internal audit. And internal audit is not only here as a fault finding mission, it's rather here to support. I always tell my colleagues, guys, I report to the audit committee, use this prop how I have whatever you need, we can transform it into an action. If I was convinced that this is really, really important for the business and we have done quite a bit of that. So this collaborative approach for me it is really, really a value add. And I can see tangible, you know, my favorite were tangible outcomes on graph. So yeah, I think that's, that's how it is. And now we're looking into the integrated logistics services, all the products that we have within the group and see how we can align them and make money out of them, given that's a key objective of any organization. But then how are we also serving the bigger picture of the, of the country through being the logistics arm of the government?

It, it's, it sounds like you've got a lot of things going on. Number one, very, very, very open minded. Not just looking for, you know, what went wrong, but looking for, you know, what went right and what could be even better and optimized in the future and making sure there isn't. There's a balance in governance I think it sounds like, and you know, having, you know, being on, on the ground and, and keeping kind of your fingers on the pulse. If I can say that, you know what's happening and making sure that you understand the different aspects of the business, so very, very well rounded and. And open to kind of what's going on and to seeing what's going on. That actually leads me kind of into my next question, which is, you know, how are you received by the business? It sounds like so far that what you've talked about very positively. Your internal audit is received very positively, positively by the business because, you know, some audit functions are less welcome by the business than other functions. But how do you then nurture those relationships for yourself and perhaps also address for your team as well? Yeah.

So I think the answer, Tracy, is not very straightforward. It is a challenging ride, of course. I mean, we are human beings, and I think every chief audit or whoever will be listening to us. You know, when we get the qa, comes and do the audit on us. How do we feel? I feel, and I see, you know, the smirk and the smile on my colleagues from the other departments who sit on the floor. Now it's your turn, guys. And as human, of course, you know, nobody would want their mistakes pinpointed to them. So I also, from a psychological perspective, I think we need to have that awareness as well, that psychologically, it is natural for people to be defensive, natural for them to be apprehensive of us. Who are these people? And then also try to cover up some of the. Maybe I wouldn't even put it in the report, but they'll be covering it up anyway. So I think it hasn't been an easy ride. And given that we are covering all of these verticals with multiple executive management, some of them have that control, focus, approach. And they will always be supportive. Yes, they will be feeling that weird feeling about them getting an audit report, but then they will be supportive, looking at it from a brighter side. But some of the executives will be like, who are you to tell me what you're saying? And all of that. So I think we need to be very persistent, very resistant and resilient, because being resilient and just. And not to be intimidated. And for me, this is a message to everyone. Hearing us as well is for us not to be intimidated. As internal auditor auditors, there is only one solution, is to be knowledgeable. The more knowledgeable you are, the less intimidated you will be getting. And being like, for example, auditing. And he's a very, very good friend of mine, Captain David Stockley. He used to be the chief operating officer in our shipping company, and he used to intimidate people. He has been a sailor for years and you know, he has the character, he has the personality, he has everything. And then comes this little lady who just joined the company a year and a half ago and auditing his field of 40 years experience. So for me before doing that, it took me over two weeks to read and benchmark and understand what is the technical management in any shipping company. And access to information is always there. Again, if we take our checklist and do, no one will blame us as auditors. But that long lasting relationship with the business has to come from the knowledge that we exercise. Because also with the knowledge, Tracy, it's very important that we will also be understanding to the management and we will not have that close mindedness. No, this is a control gap. Close it, I don't care. It's a control. Some gaps we can tolerate, some gaps we can transfer, some risks we can accept as long as we follow the process of risk acceptance. So not everything is going to collapse if they did not agree to our audit findings. I think this is very, very important. I try to instill the same mindset into my team and luckily given because I am leading the team, I can at least showcase these characters within the stakeholders internally. But is that easy? And can I claim that yes, everyone is following? No, of course not. Many of them are still typical auditors. Not many. Some are still typical auditors, maybe are still in default finding mission and all. But maybe sometimes that balance is also important because the digging gets you some information, extra information sometimes, right? Because you cannot claim to be only friends and only collaborative. We're still auditors anyway. We still have to deliver bad news. We still have to deliver very hard news. We still have to put people under the spotlight. But if I have the collaborative part as well, that balance kicks in. So they will see that at least the intention is not bad or it's not just to expose whatever and whoever it is more of I care for what you care as well. So. And I think it's about pitching. And again IIA Global is coming into this during the May awareness month. They try to make us work into how do we pitch for our functions. What is internal audit? How is internal audit? How are we hand in hand with you? And we can do all sorts of presentations, cake cutting, cookies with IIA and all, but if we don't act it on ground, the cookies will be only delicious very, very momentarily.

It's, it's so, it's so true because I've been talking about branding for a very long time. Maybe not using the word branding, but talking about marketing. Because I believe internal audit can market itself very, very differently. So it's about building the relationships and then nurturing those relationships because we can't, we can't have a great audit result, a great audit report unless we have those kind of strong, trustful relationships. And as you said, yes, we need to maintain some, some independence there. We can't just be friends, but we can be very professional and very supportive and very collaborative at the same time while maintaining that objectivity and reporting sometimes some of the difficult or giving some of the difficult news there.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think for, for internal audit to be very, very focused on building those relationships and, and marketing what audit does as a, as a value add to the business and showing, showing the benefits. Because I know, you know, audit typically talks about risks and not as often talks about the benefits. And as human beings, we both of those things appeal to us when we're making our decisions and when we're getting on board with an idea or a concept and supporting something or championing something. So I think having the skills to do that and have those conversations, and I love the word collaboration, so, you know, doing it that way is going to get us a long way along, much further along than kind of the other attitude of this is just a control gap and you have to close it, as you said. Right?

Yeah, I think exactly. I mean, again, when management sees us supportive in the sense that our data analytics can help them see something they haven't seen. Right. They will. Then here will be the very smooth transition from assurance provider to advisory, which every auditor, whoever I meet and discuss with, at least locally, we always have that confusion. Where is our line? Where do we draw our line? But it depends on how do we position ourselves in the organization. By default, that advisory will just kick in and we wouldn't even feel that as an advisory. It'll be just normal colleague chat. And guys, from a governance perspective, how is this perceived? We're submitting this to the board, for example. Can you just review if we have missed any critical information? You guys have access to the board of the audit committee. I would like to make an impact with my communication. Is this analytics enough or you think we need to add? And by the way, we're giving a lot, a lot of feedback and advice when it comes to them and to these items. And we don't call it help or support. It's a complementary thing because I know something that they don't know. That's it. It's like the Organization is like a jigsaw puzzle. So everyone, you know, puts their relevant piece so that is how we can complement each other. And yeah, again, maybe saying it seems easy and smooth and as if I do it as a stroll at the park. Not at all, not at all. But because I focus on making this happen. That's why the struggle is even more, because I don't like isolating myself from management. I don't like isolating myself from the business. If anything happens as a risk in the region that is impacting us, I will be initiating, proactively initiating the discussion with the relevant people, asking them, so how is this going to impact us? Once you show that kind of feel, they also, by default, come and try and you will be inclusive. It will be more of an inclusive kind of a discussion. So I think, yeah, internal audit has a very, very solid and strong position in the organ, given its independence, thanks to all the regulations, to the laws. I think many organized, many countries have these matters more from a legal perspective as well, like their governance sets, how internal audit should be positioned. And I think we are just using very, very little of the power we have. And I don't know what we are saving the rest for. I think let's all get up and just use it.

It's interesting, you know, because if, you know, when you say, you know, there's, there's other power there that you haven't used and the question is, do you need to? Because by building those relationships, by understanding, like you said, spending the time to understand the business, listening to people, having those, having those conversations, going out and talking to them about, you know, what do you think the risks are? What's your perspective? What are the business objectives that you have? That's where you can really build, build bridges where you don't, you don't need a power stick, if you like.

Yeah, yeah. And for me, I look at it at this power from a different perspective, a different angle, in the sense that, okay, we have our reporting line to the audit committee, we use it as an ego straight. I report to the board, I am equivalent to the CEO, but that comes with a lot of demand and expectations. And if the audit committee does not ask for these expectations, but what is our role in showing and bringing that there? So my independent reporting line is giving me the power of, not the stick, but maybe the carrot. I can take much more to the audit committee because they are members of the board. Right. And many governance systems. So them understanding my point of view can accelerate and can support certain stuff at the Board level discussion or sometimes can mitigate certain risks from happening. Because as internal auditors, we're shedding so much light on diverse aspects in the organizations. So I think, yes, I think maybe it's never too late and it happened now, but it happened in an era, Tracy, where technology is faster than anyone, anything. And we are going to play catching up very soon because the evolution of the organizations will become so, so strong and so fast. And we are witnessing that already. Maybe not in our day to day, but the dynamics are changing. So are we as internal auditors ready for that at that speed? Can we go with that speed? That will depend on each audit unit to assess their readiness.

That is the question, right? Is how quickly can you adapt to technology changes, not just using them as tools, but also what the business is using for technology and identifying those emerging risks. I did a presentation last week where we were talking about emerging risks and reporting and how do you report emerging risks?

Yeah.

And I will tell you, in the research that I did for the presentation, I found one audit team that actually reports emerging risks in their audit reports. Only one? Only one. So I was, I was quite surprised. I was quite surprised. So then that becomes a question of is that the place to report it or not? However, that's a different question. We won't go down that rabbit hole. But I did want to ask you about your audit reports. I love everything about audit reporting. I may be the only one in the world that thinks that audit reports can be sexy. I think they can be compelling, I think they can add value. I'm wondering, is there anything you can share about your audit reporting? So how are our audit reports received by the business? Are they welcomed or not? And what is it that maybe you do differently that our listeners could benefit from? Yeah.

Again, I think if you look into our audit reports from 2017 and how they are today, they have gone through some level of evolution. I would say because it depended at that time we were more of classical auditors. We had all of these companies new, so we were doing more of health check, compliance related. But once we came out from that compliance audit mindset and more into the forward looking business objective mindset, our audit reports completely shifted. And before I get into the examples, Tracy, we have to keep in mind one very important thing. Our audit report is our voice. Right. It's a communication and communications is always both ways. So it's not only about sending a very sophisticated, cool document, but it's also about receiving. So imagine you have something that is so high level, so, so Brilliant and wonderful, but it is full of big words and jargons and too much text and very little visual the receiving. You will be proud at one end, but then the receiver will not be receive it the way you want it. And then the impact will not happen because you know, implementation comes from the other end of the communication. It's not from our side. So, so and then for me, where one of the root causes that I wanted a transformation of my audit report was, you know, a photo was being circulated in social media. So you have a road that was paved. No, that was broken and then paved and then broken again. And then related this to internal audit findings. So it's broken, they come, we'll fix it just for them, they'll leave, it'll be broken again. And then I went back to meeting guys, I want statistics of all the audit observations that we have reopened because if there are anyone that will reopen, then this photo describes us. And I would not never want to be associated with something as horrible as that. And then here where we started formulating our reports, now we do them in a PowerPoint format, more of a presentation format rather than word document and jargons of words. It's very, very extremely visual. We try to capture a lot of data analytics in our reports. So if there is something that I can see in graphical form or in a photo form or in a pie chart bars process flow, that's always, always 100% done unless there is something I cannot translate it into. So minimizing words and more descriptive of the analytics. And also it's very important that sometimes we have functions, for example that are adding significant value to the organization, but they are very chaotic when it comes to documentation, when it comes to following the SOPs and being very religious with the policies. So as auditors, how do we deal with these areas? I would assume typical audit report will look like all of the non compliances to the SOPs, all of the documentation chaos. Screenshot of the shirt folders, the screenshot of all the email communication as evidence. But then how much importance we are putting to the other side of the value add that this function is already giving to the organization. So one of my audit reports look more like we were teasing each other internally saying this is more of a management report than an audit report because half of it was showcasing the change from when they started until the date of the audit. And what value add has happened to the organization through them or the other criteria that that we looked into it. And the group CEO was actually delighted to see that because this function was very much his focus at that point from the beginning and he had his heart in it. And then he said something and then I moved into the chaos part. Of course, I had a small observation at the bottom highlighting all of these issues. And he said, you know, Zahra, creativity always comes from chaos. And I think that's what you guys found out in this review. So. So I do urge all the auditors, even if the management or the chief audits or the heads of audits are still inclined into the classical way of doing audits, but the auditor is on ground. These are the people who can produce the data analytics and convince their superiors that no, maybe we can do things differently, you know, So I think, yeah, through, through. And again, it's not only the hindsight background, it's also the forward looking, wherever we have the chance and opportunity and access to certain, you know, publications or license websites that we can get real time and market data from. So we do utilize all of that as well.

So there's a lot that goes into it, very visual. Also, it sounds like there are some positive aspects that you bring bring into the reporting. And I, I have encountered still in 2024, some resistance to including positive information in an audit report. Whether it's because they don't feel qualified or they don't want to impact the perception of independence, those kinds of things. Or are we even qualified to say what's done well? And then there's the old adage of, well, if I say it's done well, then we go back and something's wrong. They'll say, well, you said it was okay. Right. So there's all those factors in there. But I think there is a balance that can be achieved and moving towards some positivity in our reports is a good thing.

Yeah. Also what we do is we show the improvement from the last audit, for example, what improvements happen. So I just show the progress. But then sometimes I have green, yellow. No, I would have, for example, let's say amber, yellow, yellow, green, but yellow again because I mean, no organization can remain static. And the progress is not always in one direction, especially in the time that we are living in. And again, depending on the industry, many factors that are external factors impact the performance internally. And for us, when we give our opinion, whether positive or negative, it's always taking into consideration everything. So I think at least showcasing the improvement from the last audit can be a start perhaps. So that does not impact the independence, but then it does show that internal audit is also, you know, bringing the Improvements and indirectly perhaps praising management, which auditors don't do at all.

But I think that's a great option if you've gone back and you're auditing something again, is to showcase the improvement. So that's an excellent takeaway from that. All right, well, listen, I'd like to switch topics a little bit and talk about diversity in Oman, in your industry and at asiad, particularly since you're the first woman to hold the group chief audit executive position. Can you give us your perspective on diversity? Are you in your part of the world, in your company?

Yeah, I think, Tracy, this is a very, very important question. And I think it is these kind of forums which you have started where we can actually showcase maybe a more realistic view of any region we're talking about. So the perception is one thing, but reality is always. Not always, but mostly different. I just go back to my participation in the Maritime Shield program. 30 ladies from 30 different countries. We basically were from each and every continent as well. And what we have noticed, that regardless where we come from, the problems and the challenges that women feel and face in any corporate setup or work environment is almost identical. I wouldn't say similar, but almost identical. Of course, when you talk about the maritime, it's a hot topic always. Every day is about the number of female seafarers because working on board vessels is not an easy thing. And people are there on contracts of four months at a time. So females cannot, you know, it's not that environment that a woman can endure from a natural perspective of who we are as women. And for me, I always support, support the thought of differentiating the strength of a woman versus the strength of the males because I believe we were made different for reasons. And of course we do see those reasons are materialized on ground. Right. So it is. But if a woman chose to be a seafarer, I believe that the entire world should support her. If a woman chose to be group chief internal audit of eight or 10 different companies, everybody should support that. But for me, we should not bring quotas. At least that is my personal opinion. And I think it is quite sensitive sometimes to discuss these things when it comes to Oman and our, our organization, our country, women makes minimum 50% of the workforce, minimum. And some functions on some units they can reach 60%. And some industries, like for example, the teaching industry, schools and school teachers, of course, that is also worldwide. They're majority. And this building I am in, we have six plus one floors. 60% of the workforce are female. Of course, when I talk about the Whole group, we have technical related jobs that are, you know, the blue collar ones that are, these are 100% male. Am I not okay with that? No, I'm fine. Because again, it's okay. But again, if a woman want to be a welder and my dry dock, we don't mind that. Absolutely fine. But then when we talk about the hierarchy, once you go up the ladder in the organization, the number of female lessons, of course, and I think that is also again, worldwide number of female having board seats in many, many organizations, that is also very, very limited. In Oman, we are tomorrow actually celebrating the Omani Women's Day. And that's when the government has been very much focused on giving the women the same rights as the men. And you know, it is not allowed to even discuss the gender of the candidate when you are appointing that there are equal opportunities. But again, moving up the ladder is the choice of the woman as much as it's the choice of the male. So I can move up the ladder through my effort, through the qualification I obtain, through my persistence, through my knowledge gain, through how I position myself as a person, as an individual. We also learned the SHE or maritime program. Tracy, one thing that's very interesting and I think we all know that women have a tendency to be more shy in showcasing their achievements. But guys don't have those tendencies. That's why they're more vocal. But we are less vocal. Not because we don't have achievement, but we don't want to. We feel as if we're bragging and we don't like bragging. And last year's Women's day, there were 200 ladies in the room. And I said, show of hands. How many of you in this room has a LinkedIn profile? Maybe two or three. And I said, you guys need some working to do on. And at least I started with my female team members. Now they are trying to be. One of them is becoming quite active. I will share her profile link with you, but it's all about encouraging and making that first step.

And it's really, it's a, it's, it's about stepping, stepping out right into this, into the bright sunshine of LinkedIn. I think it's so, so important. LinkedIn is million dollar real estate, in my opinion. Yeah. So depending on what you want to do, you use LinkedIn as a tool to help you get that. If you want to be seen, if you want a different job, if you want to be seen as an expert, if you want to become a thought leader, if you want to Find out what everyone else is doing in the industry. You have a presence on LinkedIn and you have more of a presence or less of a presence. But having a presence I think is absolutely critical. So I love that you encourage those 250 women to have LinkedIn profiles and for any, anyone listening, male or female, have a LinkedIn profile. Speaking tomorrow to three or four hundred audit students. Yeah, digital professionals, students in the digital, you know, future digital professionals, I would say digital trust professionals. And that's one of the nuggets that I'm going to drop because they're global, they're all over the world. Get a LinkedIn profile, study LinkedIn profiles, use ChatGPT to say what should a good profile include? And then go and do that for yourself. So very, very important. But I do appreciate also that, that you are a walking example of how diversity works and the success of diversity. And it has to do, I think, not just with gender, but about what we want for ourselves, what we want for our families, what we want our role in this life to be. So, so thank you for that, for sharing that perspective and I, I wanted to jump over because we're kind of on the back of that. What advice would you give to women who want to rise into leadership within the internal audit profession?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's very important for women. Again, some of the requirements of the internal audit profession maybe doesn't come naturally to us as women. We're not confrontational. We try to, you know, pacify any heated situation and we try to, you know, be friends and keep the room and that, but that's not always possible and I think we need to build a little bit thicker skin if a female leader wants to reach ahead of internal audit, whether it's called cheap head, md, whatever, vp, but heading that comes with a lot, a lot of accountabilities and ownership related matters and responsibilities. So you are, in the face of it, everything that comes in on my desk when I report it to the audit committee. So we report seven to eight reports at a time every quarter and I am the focal of all of them. Of course I haven't done the field work of all of them, but how much homework I need to do, how much convincing I need to be convinced of these matters to be able to hold them there. So I think knowledge is again, I'll go back to knowledge because it is very, very important that I equip myself and not only in the knowledge of my industry, but why don't I also be knowledgeable about side topics other Topics, other word related. Even if it's boring, politics is always boring. But it's okay, let it be boring, but learn from it. Get to know what is going on in the world because everything is connected and interconnected. For example, if someone talks about something in the industry that is a benchmarking thing, let us get interested about it and see where do we stand compared to that. Again, for women this doesn't come always naturally. For men it does, even if they're not interested. But they're interested somehow I really don't know how, but that's how they are, you know. But for us it's very different. And so I think it's. My advice is you will definitely have to step out of your comfort zone in many areas. In many areas, I sometimes have trouble sleeping the nights where I have a very strong or heavy audit committee coming up tomorrow or a heavy meeting with some executive to close something that I know we have perhaps a disagreement, but then how do I persist and how. My resilience is there. So my advice and my takeaway, it's not an easy ride. Don't expect it to be an easy ride. It will come with a lot of sweat and tears. But then us as women, we have a different perspective when we are there on the table, right? And I think this is very, very important. So whether it is from an audit lead position or any other executive position, we women have to be out of our comfort zone to make it a success.

Absolutely. So I've heard words like persistence and resilience and getting outside your comfort zone. And I know from my perspective growth is at the end of your comfort zone. So we can't get better, we can't improve if we're always just doing the same thing and staying in our comfortable little space. We have to get out there, experience things, run into challenges, figure out how to resolve them. Collaborate, there's that word again. To resolve them and to grow and to step into that role, taking the ownership and accountability. So I don't think it's an easy road, but I think it's. It's a road that can be enjoyed and bring so much to those around us. Right. When women step into those leadership roles and internal audits. So that's one of the reasons I'm here, of course. So is helping women see that they can do this. Not pain free, maybe not too, but.

It'S an enjoyable ride actually. Like you've said, once an auditor, always an auditor. And why is that? Because the learning and internal audit is never ending. So it's hardly routine. It becomes in some industries maybe routine. Yes, but then it is more of a vertical growth. I mean, horizontal growth. It's not a vertical growth. So for auditors, sometimes people are like, susara, what next? You already report to the audit committee, what next? I'm like, I don't have to have a next. I'm happy where I am. I'm learning, I'm satisfied. So again, here comes the female versus male baby mindset. For them it's always, what's the next? When it comes to the ladder, I'm comfortable, I'm happy being comfortably sitting at the top of the ladder and watching the world. No problem with that, you know, as long as I'm satisfied, content and learning.

And it's all, it's just about learning. I remember in my, in my younger days, I remember it was, you know, and because I was working in the States for a while and it was like, go to the next, go to the next, go to the next, go to the next. New title, new salary, all those different things.

Yeah.

And I, I think it, as I, as I age and become hopefully a little bit wiser, I realize that there's more, there's more beyond the title and salary and to have an enriching experience and to provide opportunity for others to have such an experience as well. So. Yeah, super. So listen, I've got, I think I've got a couple more questions for you. One is can you share one piece of advice or a lesson learned that we could all benefit from.

Professionally speaking? Again, I think I go around the same things and I think being closer to the people in the organization. But again, doesn't matter if it's internal audit or any other unit. Put any ego you have at home and then go to work, you know, being empathetic, trying to put yourself in the shoes of others, in the position of others. What if you were in their position? You know, how would you have reacted? It gives a completely different perspective. And we always say when people wear different hats, they act differently because circumstances make them act differently, you know, and then not everyone has the privilege of being independent in organization. So we also need to be again, empathetic with people who are working in certain circumstances, certain cultural pressure and levels. And here comes what value I can add here. And sometimes while being so rigid in our work, again, whether it's audit or not, rigidity may be at the short term shows good results because you will be focusing on that. But then the long term can be damaged. So I think that empathy and Understanding the other party is always, always very important. And as auditors, this makes a very successful auditor or an audit function because it will be more of together pushing the board forward rather than the resistance of push and pull. So the understanding. And it's not about, oh, my God, what if I did not write that observation down? We have to also sometimes assess. Sometimes things do. Your knowledge and expertise will add to the assessment of what you are going to put in the report or not. And sometimes by omitting some immaterial findings can have much more positive impact than adding it just for the sake of making something, you know, for making yourself like, wow, look what I found. You know, so, yeah, empathy and less ego goes a long way.

I love that. I think empathy is not a natural skill for every person out there, but I do believe it's like a muscle. And we simply have to exercise this muscle every day, Every day, every day. And, and, and it, it does. It does work. I can. I can say. I can honestly say it does work. And it's just. It's just putting yourself in people's shoes and understanding that there, There is an emotional side to it for them, most likely because we are all human beings. We can't. We can't stop the feelings. It's the question of what we do with them or if anything. And if we as auditors ignore those feelings. And I think that can create more of a barrier than an open relationship with everyone.

We cannot disconnect ourselves. You know, anything has two elements, the science part, but also the emotional and psychology part. And as auditors, one thing you said, Tracy, really, really important, you said that empathy is like a muscle. The more you train it, you know, it will get better and better. And I think assertiveness and internal audit is also like a muscle, because I witnessed that firsthand. So when I first joined the internal audit world, I was more empathetic than assertive. So even a fraudster was in front of me and crying. I would immediately sympathize. But then through the internal audit journey, I realized that I need to actively work my assertiveness muscle differently. So I think we lack this assertiveness also sometimes in the function. You know, we take things like, again, black and white. If it's there, it's there. If it's not there. But then what is the bigger picture? What is the bigger context of what I am reviewing or looking at? What is, you know, the impact that I want to create through this? So, yeah, that struck me when you said it's like a muscle Because I know there are some skills you're not born with, but they can definitely be nurtured and grown as well.

Sometimes, sometimes it's just how our brains are wired. But if you can see the gap, that's when you can actually make a difference for yourself. And by making a difference for yourself, you make a difference for those around you. Absolutely. When you see your impact on others.

Yeah. And just step back, not immediately build a conclusion. Just take a moment, take a moment, ask yourself 1, 2, 3 questions and then act upon them. So I think in the function and the career of internal audit, assertiveness is also key, is very, very important.

I think that's great advice. Think about it. One, two, three. And then, then act on it. Super. All right, last question. Sarah, what legacy do you hope to leave in the field of an internal audit? And what impact do you hope to have on future generations, especially women?

Okay, so the legacy. I want to be remembered that I was a nice person, especially that I'm heading the audit function, but also that I could manage to help management create and make change in the organization. Because it's very difficult for internal auditors to be seen as catalyst of change when it comes from a business objective. Because we're catalysts of change with an internal audit. We're catalysts of change, of how do we market ourselves. But how can I be seen as a catalyst of change in helping management make better decisions, more informed decisions through my role? This is the legacy I would definitely, definitely be happy to be hearing if and when I leave the audit world. But also the advice I would give the ladies is get out from the fault finding mission approach of internal audit. Internal audit is an academy, is a school. There is no function in any organization that has the exposure that internal auditors have. So make use of that. So if you are auditing, for example, the finance function and you are not a chartered accountant or you are not an expert in finance, take that opportunity to learn the stuff that you are unsure about. For example, if you're auditing, I have the team led always by a female member, auditing operations, supply chain, but also hse. And for her to be successful and for us to continue entrusting her in it was because of her continuous learning agility that she had. So again, maybe learning agility is something that can be also nurtured. Lack of muscles. So now we have three muscles we need to focus on. So learning agility is very, very important. Never stop learning. Never stop acquiring knowledge, whether through certifications, reading articles, subscribing in newsletters. And so I think that extra effort and extra mind is very, very important for the woman specifically.

Fantastic. Zahra, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. It's been an absolute delight to learn more about you and to learn more about your environment in which you operate. And congratulations again on your success. I think you're an inspiration and I hope that all of our listeners are inspired by your messages and I look forward to staying in touch with you again as we go forward.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Tracy. It's been an honor for me to be selected by someone as teamed as you in the profession. And yeah, I just put everything aside. I want to do this podcast with Tracy. That is a big honor. Thank you so much. Thank you to you and the team. Thank you.

Thank you.

Sara Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us on this episode of the INS Aspiring Women in Audit podcast. We'd love for you to stay part of our growing community, so subscribe wherever you're listening. If you're enjoying our content on platforms like itunes or Spotify, a quick five star rating from you would mean the world to us. It's a small action that supports our mission immensely. Don't forget to explore the show notes for various links and join our vibrant community on all our social media platforms. Your interaction and support play a crucial role in amplifying the voices of inspiring Women in Audit and spreading their inspiring stories even further. Thank you for being a part of our journey and we'll catch you in the next episode of the Inspiring Women in Audit podcast.