Beyond Limits: Inspiring Narratives Of Disability And Triumph With Kevin McShan Of Let’s Have This Conversation

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority Magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the binge factor.

Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for Today's guest, Kevin McShan. I loved being interviewed by him so much that I had to invite him back on the show. That's one of the beautiful things about everything podcasting, right, is that you have this opportunity to meet people, do a swap trade out. But I just, I loved everything about him. He made me feel so included, so valued as a guest. He really took the time to research me. He made me feel seen. So that's why I wanted to bring him right here to you and make sure that you see and hear him. Kevin McShan is one of the most engaging and captivating professional speakers and and disability advocates I have ever met. He's also a journalist and that's where his expertise has come from. And in areas of employment, equity, diversity and inclusion make him an effective, in demand transformational speaker for human resource professionals and organizations looking to build an inclusive culture. He worked with the Ontario Chamber of Commerce on the Discoverability Network project in the region of Windsor, Essex and and in this role he was responsible for linking business to the Discoverability Network website, an online job matching portal for employers and job seekers with disability, which it was the first in Ontario's history. He's worked with the Ontario government to champion employment opportunities for people of all abilities and he's the proud recipient of the 2012 Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal for his commitment to promoting equality and individuals with disabilities. So I take it you're going to hear here that obviously Kevin has some kind of disability. But here's the thing, none of it is an excuse. He has been an amazing contributor to the podcast market and the podcasting industry, advocating for diversity, inclusion and the we are able movement. But the impact that he has had just by being there, just by showing up every day, just by overcoming that microphone and all the issues that he may have around making a podcast happen makes you feel if you're still sitting back and not launching your show, there is absolutely no excuse for you, right? There are no excuses left in the world. So I want you to really listen to this. There are some things that come across in this interview, how long it took him to get paid on some of his jobs. And there are people out there who are complaining that it's been 30 days and they didn't make a dime on their podcast yet. So I really want you to listen to Kevin because the no excuses model here really applies. And he has some beautiful advice for you from a professional journalist perspective that he has learned the hard way, because in the sports journalism world, where he comes out of that is not an easy thing. So inclusion is a gateway to independence. It is the one thing he said to me that just really resonates. So I want you to listen with that openness in mind. So let's go. Kevin McShan, let's have this Conversation is the name of his podcast.

Kevin, I am so glad to have you back and be with you again. Let's have this Conversation. That's your show, you know, and I think people forget that it's a podcast. They think it's a show, but it's still a conversation. It's a conversation with you and me and the audience.

Yeah, absolutely. First and foremost, Tracy, I want to extend my most heartfelt thanks for having me me on the program. And, you know, I started the program about three and a half years ago because I, you know, Tracy, I looked at the world and I said to myself, there has to be more that binds us together rather than finding ways to bring us apart. You know, if we spend more time and energy sort of bringing things together and finding more what I call bridges of unity, I think we would be in a much more a healthier place from a societal perspective. So my show is all about bringing people together from different industries as, you know, talk about what really moves the needle of progress forward because, you know, we're all on earth for an infinite amount of time. And the good thing about life is that we all have an acclaration date at some point. And, you know, the last line on my biography, choice, it says that the tragedy of life isn't when it ends, it's refusing to live while you still have and a bridge. So I want to bring people together to have meaningful conversations that moves the needle of progress forward.

You know, I love that visual of bridges. It's something that I think is so critically important in innovation and technology and all the different areas where we do things where we don't. We just, like, this is the goal, go over here, and we don't help people get to that place. And sometimes we need to mentally move to that place. Sometimes we need to emotionally move to that place, and sometimes we need to technically move to the place. Like, we need to know the how to.

Yeah. My mission and vision for the show is to really start the conversation. You know, I view, I interview people sometimes that I don't necessarily agree with all the time. The great thing about taking a journalistic approach to this show is that you have the ability to challenge or push back or promote things from an objective point of view because, you know, you want to give people a platform of information to make meaningful and informed decisions. So I hope I do that through the lens of the program for sure.

So, you know, you said that that's it. Too many podcasters don't think of themselves as journalists, so they don't think about that objectivity necessary and that journalistic integrity necessary. But you've obviously thought about that. Do you have journalistic training, or is this something that you sort of developed as the show went on?

No. So, trustee, I originally started my career and I graduated college as a sports reporter. So I graduated college in 2010, and out of college, I'll tell you a quick story. So, Tracy, I was born as you know, with what's called bastard, quadriplegis, reproposy. So when I graduated college and when I went to have interviews with news directors, they would look at me and they would say, at the time, you have a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm. We think you would be an asset for our organization or for our newsroom. But because of your disability, we view you as a liability. So I took that as fuel to prove those that wouldn't hire me wrong. So what I did was, outside of college, after I graduated, Tracy, I spent four years as a volunteer sports reporter at a local television station without a paycheck. I worked for four years as a television sports reporter and a general assignment reporter. And through my advocacy work and advocating for folks with disabilities through sports and news and all the other things about inclusion, the Ontario government saw me and I had a chance to work with the Ontario government to coin a special master to look into the benefits of hiring inclusively and why that's so important. Through that, I worked with the Ontario Trillium foundation, and after that project over, it was called we are Able, and it was intended to hire folks with disabilities and show employers the benefits of that. And through that experience, we hired a total of 30 people and we gave 31 local presentations through employers, and we told them all about the benefits of hiring folks with disabilities and the Final piece of that is my signature accomplishment in the inclusive employment space. So through that experience, I was appointed as the first lead ambassador for a project called the Discoverability Network, which was Ontario's first online job matching portal for individuals and employers to get connected. During my time with the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, we were able to get a total of 70 people employed in our local region. And I was the local ambassador for the network. For the first year and a half of the endeavor, we got 70 people either a job placement or an internship, and we also connected the network with 15 total employers. So I've had certainly a story of resilience and redemption in some circles, and that's partly how I became a motivational speaker. And we can get into that as you wish. But to go back to your original question, I started my career as a sports reporter. I didn't say that way after the four or five years that I volunteered as a general assignment reporter. But, you know, life has a way of taking us through many different directions and paths, doesn't it?

It does, you know, and I think, though, that having being a reporter is hard. Like, I, I, I'm very sure it's hard in general, right? You gotta build rapport with, with whoever your source is if you're trying to get information or whoever you're interviewing. And I think it is, there's a lot of similarity to being a podcaster because we have to do that in a short period of time. We've gotta do it in this one hour that we have together. Do you use any skills that you learned as a reporter? As a podcaster?

You know, what I try to do as a podcaster is be a relatable podcaster. Whatever is, I look for ways to humanize people as a podcaster. You know, the first lesson they ever teach you in journalism school is localize everything. And in the podcasting world, I look for connections to how does this issue that I'm talking about give the audience intellectual or factual value? And conversely, how can I use their experience to leverage getting a personal connection out of them? You know, one of the strengths I believe that I have as a reporter is making people show their more personal side. And if you can infuse that as a podcaster, because podcasting is all about having conversations and authentically connecting with people. So if you can humanize people, I think that's the biggest lesson that I've taken from my journalism training in terms of having a conversation with people.

You know, I think this is, I always like to analyze everybody's Binge factor on their show. And I think that that's really. You are right about that. This is your strength, and the strength of let's have this conversation, the show itself is the fact that you are. I'm going to say you have a way of disarming people, like, getting them to, like, let their chips off their shoulder down a little bit and just be human. Right. And answer the questions. But you must prepare in a really great way. And I would love to hear about your preparation, because I feel like you already see me before you interview me, like you are already seeing into me as a human being before you interview me. Every question you ask shows me that you saw something in me that I might have put out there, that I might have said, that I might have been there, that you're listening. And that feels really connective and valuable.

You know, I think the number one quality that any authentically good podcaster has is the ability to listen. So I appreciate the compliment, but I. Part of my process is I research people, and then I come up with what I call the 12 questions of consequence. And I structure questions, 12 questions that I do from researching people. And sometimes I follow them to a T, depending on who I'm interviewing and the time constraints they give me. If they give me time constraints. But sometimes if I listen to something and I know that it will have rhythmic value to my listeners or watchers if I go off script. So listening is important, but my process starts with creating what I call the 12 questions of consequence, and we have a conversation from there.

I love that consequence. So you're really thinking about, like, what's the result going to happen for me asking this question? What's in it for my audience? What's in it for me to learn? Is this something that this person has a value, the consequences, such weight to it. Kevin, that is beautiful.

Yeah. You know, I think that everyone. People always ask me why I'm so resilient and why I'm so positive about life. And I'll share this story, and then I'll tie it back to your question about consequences. You know, Tracy, I was born, as you know, with what's called spasta quadriplegis reproposy. And I actually found out at the age of nine, Tracy, that I would not be able to walk without assistance because of the severity of my CP for the duration of my life. And I always tell people that the motto that I live my life by is that inclusion is the gateway to independence. And everyone has a story to share. And one of the reasons I went into journalism initially was because I believe that every individual, regardless of race or socioeconomic backgrounds, they deserve a platform to share their story from an objective and non biased way. So having a sense of consequence also allows me to have a sense of humility and again, humanize the person. Because, you know, if we can all sort of operate from a position of diversity and using diversity and inclusion as a strength, I think that our perspectives on life would be so much better. That's sort of my philosophy as a podcaster.

I love that because, you know, for me, I've done so many interviews and I know you have too. Like, the more interviews we do, if it was the same all the time, it would be incredibly difficult for me to keep my energy up. For me to be able to keep doing this, I have to be interested too. And the diversity creates that. I think that's so important that you're pointing that out, that that diversity and creates this richness of energy for you to keep exploring.

You know, I'm gonna tell you a quick story. So I only have a two year college diploma and some people say, why wouldn't you expand your education? And you know, for me, four year college wasn't sort of in the cards because of my life circumstance and my disability. So I use podcasting as a vehicle to learn because no matter how many degrees you have on a wall or how many years you went to school, you can learn something from somebody that you haven't sort of aligned yourself with. Everyone has a sort of different life experience. So I think podcasting is a great way to learn, grow and prosper. And you know, sometimes I use what I learn from other people, interview my next guest or a guest that I have down the line. And I reference questions sometimes that I ask other guests, ask them their perspective on starting a conversation. So I'll give you an example. I work with, outside of hosting my podcast, I work with businesses about amplifying the need to hire folks with disabilities because as you know, the rate of employment for folks with disabilities is significantly lower than their non disabled counterparts. So what I try to do on every one of my podcasts is ask whoever I'm interviewing. No matter what sort of line of life they come from, what is their view of diversity and inclusion? And how can hiring folks with disabilities create a competitive advantage? Because, you know, life is all about creating your competitive advantage so that you can help other people prosper in their own life. You know, you said something earlier about not being bored. And you know, the way we stop from Falling victim to boredom is by learning. You know, I believe that networking, Tracy, is the heartbeat of life, because every connection you make is an opportunity to make difference in the world. So I view podcasting, networking and building relationships is sort of my lifeblood, or heartbeat of life, if that makes sense.

Well, because you're such an expert in the diversity and inclusion area and you do advise, I think this is a really good time for us to talk about how to make sure that we're creating diversity and inclusion in our guest, that we're selecting for our show. Because I have a lot of podcasters that are listening here right now. You interview two to three people a week, so you've got a lot of people you're putting into your model. How are you out there looking and saying, is this filling my goals of diversity? Is this adding to the inclusion that I want to create in the world, the impact that I want to have? Are you doing that with an intention in mind? Is there a process that you use that you could share with us?

Yeah, so my process is a four tier system. The first thing that I look to is what's the inclusion angle and can I use this, Can I multipurpose this for when I give speeches to businesses? So can I repurpose the content in clips to give to audiences about how important it is to hire folks with disabilities?

So you're thinking about, like, that ultimate outcome of how you're going to use it as important when you're making your selection process.

Yeah, that's right. So how can I add value to the audience I speak to? What's my level of interest in their own story? Can I humanize myself to make the conversation more authentic? And what is the relevant value that I'm adding to that person by extending an invitation to my podcast? So those are sort of the four tier system that I use when I go recruit a guest for my podcast, and also how I can use it if I agree to be a guest on somebody else's podcast.

I love that model. You called it recruit a guest. It's like human recruiting, right? Yeah, you're right about that. I love that term.

Yeah. I spend a lot of time talking to business owners, so I recruit all the time. Right. Whether it be for podcasting or putting myself out there as a public speaker. So it comes full circle every day. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about some of the benefits that you've received as a podcaster. And so you started on this journey about three, three and a half years ago, something like that. And you have Undoubtedly gotten some speaking engagements, made connections and other things. What if some of those, I'm going to call them residual benefits because they're not always monetary, Right? But they do sometimes lead to monetary. They lead to a client, they lead to something more. But what are some of those residual benefits that you found from podcasting?

Well, you know, there's a great platform that we found each other on called PodMatch. And you know, the great thing about PodMadge is if you interview certain people, they give you a commission for interviewing that person. So getting some extra money in my pocket is always a good thing. But I also use podcasting to create, as I said, strategic partnerships for speaking. So I'll give you an example. So I had the CEO and president of Visit Detroit a couple of years ago on my podcast and we Talked about the 2024 draft coming, the NFL draft coming to Detroit. And as a result of helping them promote the fact that the draft was coming to Detroit, they invited me as my personal support worker to attend the Lions game, their luxurious suite for the day. Usually those leads go for about $13,000 a pop. I got in for doing a 25 minute interview and making that connection with that particular organization. And this upcoming February, it's all going to come full circle because I'm going to give a speech to their staff at Visit Detroit and then Detroit Sports Commission about how to build an inclusive culture and using resilience as a pillar for that sort of strategy. So it comes full circle. So there are residual events, both personally and professionally. And certainly I've used it to get speaking engagements and continue that conversation as well.

I love that. That's such a great story and such a great opportunity. So let's talk a little bit about resilience. Resilience is something you have strength and spades on, but most people don't realize that we do need some resilience as a podcaster. Right. It's not the easiest road.

You're right about that. You know, one of the reasons I love podcasting so much, Tracy, is what I call the six year stretch. You know, it's only six years out of college to get my first paying job and, you know, to hone my journalism skills. Before I even got into podcasting, I started doing YouTube videos about the Detroit Lions, about sports in general. And through that, other people have saw the work that I did and said, you're really good at podcasting. You should really think about it as a career. So I used to the experience of my resilience because six years so I graduated college in June of 2010, and I didn't get my first paycheck from an actual job until February of 2016. So in the interim, you know, I'm a person that always loves to grow. So I would post commentary from a podcasting perspective, whether it be my own personal sort of analysis on sports. And the reason I started my own, the let's have this conversation podcast is I wanted to prove to myself that I could cover more than sports. So I started the broadcast, as you said, in May of 2020. I have now recorded, as of today, 841 episodes in just under three and a half years. Wow. Almost 500 million people have launched the show on YouTube at at least. Almost 10,000 people have downloaded it on Apple podcasts. So I must be doing something right.

You are definitely doing something right. So now I said this on Kevin's show, but Kevin is among the elite of the elite. Those who get over 750 episodes are elite podcasters. There are less than 1% of 1% that do that. So it's amazing what he has done.

Yeah. And just before we move on, I'll give you my sort of turning point in my life. So, as I mentioned, I found out at the age of nine that I wouldn't be able to walk for the duration of my life. And I have an identical twin brother, and my brother and I were both born with cerebral palsy, and my brother grew out of his cerebral palsy, but I never did. So the turning point in my life happened. It was the summer of 1998. Just comes back from Times Valley Children's Hospital. And the doctor who had performed all of my pediatric surgeries for my disability put my parents and myself in a hospital conference room when I was nine years old. And he was going through the benefits and what they were hoping they gained through the surgery. But at the end of the meeting, he stopped by parents, and he said, unfortunately, we've done everything we can do for Kevin from a medical perspective, and he won't be able to walk. So the next day, I had to go back to school and process what that meant for the rest of my life. And I credit Tracy to my middle school principal. Her name was Dr. Carol Crueley, for changing the trajectory point of my life. So she called me down to the office the day that I started my fourth year of elementary school, and she had everybody assigned to my file, from teachers to social workers to therapists. And my parents were there, and she left a big space in the middle of her office for My wheelchair. And I had went through the story of what the doctor had told myself and my parents the day before, that I wouldn't be able to walk for the rest of my life. And Dr. Grooley, of course, always already knew what I was going to tell her, but she let me tell the entire story and it was a cathartic experience for me. But she stopped me at the end of the story and she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, the only limitations on your life are the artificial ones that you place on yourself from a personal perspective. And that sort of been the changing trajectory point in my life. So I wanted to share that with you this afternoon.

Oh, now you hear why Kevin makes a great inspirational speaker. Because, look, I mean, I think about that so often. So often I see my clients, I see people out there, I see great entrepreneurs out there with such promise. But they've put these expectations and limitations on themselves. They're not what's actually going on out there. They've actually allowed those limitations to be set for themselves. And you're saying, no, I have limitations, but that doesn't mean it's limiting. I'm going to find a creative way around it. I'm going to figure out a change. I'm going to be resilient. I'm going to take longer than other people to do this. I mean, Kevin, I cannot imagine the amount of, I'm going to say, second guessing where our brains go into overdrive, right? Over the course of the six years that you were waiting to make your first paycheck, where you didn't have doubts, right? They happened all the time in there. What strength did you tap into to be able to push that down? Because that's the voice we let get to us.

You know, this is very simple to me. I view life through lenses, choices. You know, I believe that we're all coming in a deck of cards in life and it's incumbent upon all of us to make our deck of cards work for us. And I always tell people, you can either work for your circumstances or you can make your circumstances for you. So I firmly believe that we're all given a life compass in life and it's a coming upon all of us to sort of point it in the direction that we want it to go. So, you know, we all have our own definition of expectations. Because, you know, in my view, if you don't set your own expectations, it's really hard to reach the level of somebody else's. So throughout the course of my life, I've always tried to stack the deck of cards that I was dealt in my favor. You know, I always tell people that resiliency is the test to adversity once adversity strikes. So your resilience spirit is answered to the test of adversity. And that's how I look at life. So I hope that answers your question.

No, it really does. And I think that what you're saying is so critically important for us to remember. Like, sometimes we haven't actually stepped into that adversity and met the challenge that was put in front of us. We just like defeat and accept it and. And don't. And let that circumstance make the best of us instead of making the best of it.

You know, I always tell people, the worst that someone can tell you is no. And then you go, what I call, you go back in the lab, and you. We get one thing that keep going. In life, everyone's portrait of success is different. And the way I paint a picture of portrait of success will be different from you because your life experiences are different. And, you know, I interviewed yesterday, actually a guy named Justin Groff, and Justin says, Justin's a certified personal trainer and a master trainer, and he does competitive bodybuilding. And he says to me that in our interview yesterday, you said the worst thing that you can do is give yourself a forensic audit against somebody else, because you're always chasing somebody else's expectations. And the lens that I look at is if you look to always emulate someone. And I'm not discouraging people from getting professional mentors because I think they're vitally important, but if you don't pour the foundation and paint your own standard of expectations, it's really hard to develop that resilient spirit we've been talking about.

I think mentorship and inspiration is very different than modeling someone. Right. Like, that's an emulation, as you put it. Yeah, I think that's so true that we are looking for mentorship and inspiration, but we have to synthesize that into what's going to work for us, what our ultimate goals are, what we want to do out of life. How able are we to be able to take advantage of something? And that's what you really, really are doing all the time with the questions that you're asking with the model of your show is you're really demonstrating that?

Well, you know, I believe that if you don't celebrate what your defining moment of differences or what your strengths are, you're really diluting the rest of us by not working on yourself. Because I believe that one of the greatest things we could ever do is tap into the diversity of perspective because everyone's life and professional experiences are different. So it's a common upon all of us to work on ourselves and be a little bit selfish so that we can pour from a cup of strength when we want to influence others in a positive way.

Oh, that's so, so important. Kevin, I am so glad you came onto the show. It would be remiss of me if I didn't touch on a couple of tactical things that people want to know about how you do something and your YouTube off the chart in terms of success rate. I mean, 500 million views, amazing. What is the key to success on YouTube? Because there are a lot of podcasters trying both right now. What really is. Is there a difference between what you do on YouTube than what you do in your podcast? Or is it the same?

No, it's the same. So the way that I got the 500,000 views is paid marketing. I use this site called Spritzee. And the great thing about Spritzee is it's not a, you know, one of those robotic buy so many views and you get this number of subscribers and sometimes they fall off. You know, by using Spritzy and my own sort of journalism training, it allows me to create an audience of people that wouldn't normally see my content. Because the great thing about Sprucey is that they actually market to actual people instead of robots on your right.

And that's what we all want here. We want some real humans to take a look at our stuff.

So yeah, I use Spritzee and I also.

Use my own sort of differentiating factors. So I do my show as my own version of 60 Minutes. So I usually take as, you know, two to three minutes, sometimes four if I'm really sort of excited about this guest. Really giving you a synopsis before I bring in the interviewer because I believe if you have contextual, factual information to a podcast before you say I'm interviewing this person about finance, well, how does that relate to my life? And so I used my introduction to that. But you know, the biggest piece of advice I can give people for success on YouTube is find what makes your content portionable from other people and be consistent about creating and distributing content. Because once build an audience, they're going to expect that you create a content on a consistent basis. And especially if you want to be a full time YouTuber. Consistency is the key to everything.

Consistency and actually doing more. Right, because you doing two to three A week is has helped you with the podcast and helps you with YouTube as well.

Yeah. And make sure that you diversify channels. You know, big mistake that people make is they post something on YouTube and they're just hoping that the magic YouTube guys will come.

So I like the way you put that.

So divide your content into shorter content or bite sized pieces of content. Make your content into sections on YouTube. So for instance, for my podcast, I believe I have six to seven sessions, whether it be fitness or whether national news, politics or people and their stories. And I really try to separate my content into different sections to make it more digestible for people. And the keynote, having a great YouTube channel too is having a great trailer video so that you can grab people's attention in the first 30 to 90 seconds. Because in journalism and in podcasting, people's attention spans are shorter. But in a podcasting sense, if you can tell people what your podcast is about in the first 90 seconds of them clicking on your YouTube channel or listening to a podcast, it goes a long way for sure.

Yeah, they'll stick around and they want more and that's how they binge on you. Well, Kevin, I am so glad we met. This is my favorite thing about Alex Stampalippo's Pod match, who I love because he has introduced me to so many amazing people and you are one of them and I am glad you are in my circle right now. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being a amazing 800 plus podcaster. Let's have this conversation.

Well, Tracy, it was delightful to engage in a conversation with you and talk about life, resilience and everything in between. I love the space of podcasting and the connective tissue that brings us all together. So I appreciate the opportunity to engage in conversation with you. You're doing great things with your podcasting endeavors and it's was a real honor to engage in conversation with you. So thank you so very much for having me.

I told you six years before, he got paid on his job, a job that he was doing really successfully. And we're whining about our podcast not making enough money. Reality is, is that we're having impact. We're moving things forward in our business. We're filling our YouTube channels and our social media and our websites with stuff. There is payment, it's just not a check being written out to us every single day. We're impact that is making a difference. Someone like Kevin knows that. He really knows what is going on in our world of podcasting and the difference you can really make with it. And he is not missing a day to make his voice heard. I want you to get inspired by that. I was. It made me feel like, wow, I really need to double down and be much more committed this year. And I really took that and took his advice of the 12 questions of consequence. Really made a more concerted effort. And I've been doing this for over 3,000 interviews that I've done. So if I could learn something from Kevin, you can certainly learn something from anyone that you come across. Someone who you're interviewing, someone who you're listening to, like my show here. And I'm so thrilled that I was able to bring Kevin to you. Thinking carefully about all the amounts of input and everything. What we can't do is let it paralyze us. Right? Because paralysis is no excuse. Kevin taught me that today. No excuse. There is nothing that I can't do. I can't try. I can't experiment with. We are able. If Kevin and people of disability are able in the way that they are, then we are absolutely capable and able to do and take our shows to the next level and keep moving and keep doing all the things. So I am so grateful to have met Kevin McShan. I'm so grateful for. Let's have this conversation. I am so grateful for having been a guest on his let's have this Conversation, which will be linked to this episode and the blog post for this episode, which, remember, is now co located on Podcasters United because I didn't want to be limited by who I could reach and only reach my clients. I want to reach more of the podcasting industry. So we're moving this over to the nonprofit. That's where this is located right now. You can find that. Find links to Kevin. Reach out to him. He's always grateful to be on someone's podcast, so invite him on your show. I'll be back next time with another podcaster. I'm sure they'll be fantastic, but this one is really memorable. So please go listen to Kevin McShan's let's have this Conversation and come back here next week for another instructor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.

Sam.