Designing Your Product For Online Sales – Interview With Tracy Hazzard From On The Shelf Podcast With Timothy Bush

Hey, everyone. Welcome to on the Shelf, a program that is dedicated to helping you get your products on the shelf of a major retailer. I am your host, Tim Bush, and our program is presented by TLP Consulting, where we have been helping our clients get on the shelf for the past six years. Now, I know you're normally used to me going on and on and on by myself, but that is not the case today. Today we have Tracy Hazard from Has Designs. Hey, Tracy.

Hi, there. Thanks for having me.

Of course, of course. This is actually our first interview, so don't judge me too harshly.

No problem.

So Tracy is going to tell us a little bit about what they do, and then she's going to speak today specifically about the difference between selling your products online and selling your products in store, and how design plays a big part of that. So, Tracy, why don't you start off with telling people what Has Designs is and what you guys do, and then we'll kind of get into the meat of it.

Sure. Has Design Consulting is. Well, gosh, it's my husband and partner and I, and we've been on and off doing it together for 20 years, believe it or not, designing for 20 years. And it is a kind of a specialty consulting firm because we really specialize in mass retail. So we are ghost designers on things that you buy at Costco, Walmart, Target, Sam's Club, pretty much every major retail we've been in before. And you just don't know that we've designed it because our brand is our client. And 50 products that are on the market and they do about $750 million for our clients.

Well, so kind of like a ghost author where you pick up a book, you think it's written by somebody, but it was really written by somebody else. You guys are kind of that when it comes to design.

Yep. Ghost designers. Yeah. We've even worked for some major celebrities. So, you know, even they don't always design themselves.

Wow. Wow. How fun. So over 250 products or $250 million in sales is what you were saying?

No, 250 products that generate about $750 million in sales.

Wow. I didn't want to short you by.

$500 million. Well, that's fantastic. And people can find you where?

Hazdesign.com H, A, Z, Z, D, E, S, I, G, N. And you guys.

Also have your own podcast as well, right?

We do, because we, you know, because we handle everything from Brainstorm all the way to box. Really? We don't ship anything. We don't do Anything, all that logistics and all that stuff that you do, it's. That's like, you know, we take where we stop, you start. And so we have a podcast because part of the process over the years we've learned is 3D printing. So we have a podcast called WTFF, which stands for what the FFF. And FFF is fused filament fabrication or 3D printing. And we love it. It's been a great new way to design quickly, iterate fast. And sometimes for those that need a small run test and can't afford tooling, it's also a great way to do that as well.

I am, I am super 3D printing deficient.

So there are a lot of people who are.

So at some point, maybe we'll have to do a show on that. But today we're going to talk about selling your products in brick and mortar and selling them online and kind of the differences between the two and what advice you may give to some of our beginning entrepreneurs out there that either have a product idea so they're still in the planning phases, or they have a production product and they're looking at ways to take it to market.

Well, you know, from the name of your podcast, on the Shelf, I am assuming that your listeners want to be on the shelf, and who doesn't? Because you're talking about tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of units of something. So who doesn't want to be there? But you got to start somewhere, and today that starts online and it's a very big shift. So Tom and I probably, we were designing. The majority of the products we were designing maybe even five years ago were always going in store first. Maybe there was a test in store, but it would go in store first. Now it almost always they want to say, do you have online sales and how is the online sales done? And then they'll consider bringing it in store. So you have a different design problem.

Now and how does that. Well, first of all, I agree with you. In fact, most of the time when I'm talking directly to a buyer and I'm introducing them to a new item while we're speaking, they're actually punching in that item online and looking it up on Amazon to see what the reviews are and what people are saying about it and how many stars it has and how quickly it comes up. So Amazon has almost become a selling social media for products, and buyers are really using it as a vetting tool. One, to make sure that pricing is solid, and two, to find out are there any major design flaws because those are going to show up quickly by customer information and review.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, because of that, actually, I think my level of clients, I mean, typically our clients, you know, already have a significant product line and we're expanding it or taking them into new areas. So they already, you know, maybe $100million of sales already or more. So that's my typical client. But they're at a disadvantage right now and they have not turned their ship. So there's a huge opportunity for someone new to come in with a great new product and kill it out on online sales and get a store placement from that. And that's because the big guys who are already doing this and they really just want that in store shelf sale, they don't care about. They want to do factory, direct ship. And because of that, they don't spend the time to promote their listings. So they may throw it up online, but they don't really do the whole back end work that you can do now as a seller yourself. And so because of that, they aren't really getting their listings to see that kind of traffic that someone new who put some marketing effort into it can do. And you could actually get your placement because of that.

Right, right, exactly, exactly. So are there things that people can do differently? So if you had somebody like you were talking about, one of your clients that maybe wanted to turn that ship and make that shift, can they really go to online the same way that they're going to brick and mortar?

No, they can't. And that's the problem right now. A lot of them want to just do that. They're like, we have excess inventory of this and let's put it up online. And my answer is, it's a black office chair. Everything's black. It doesn't look good on a photo. You have to think this through. So there are a lot of design differences. And it can be, you know, as simple as just photographing different and making sure you have good details. Or it can be you kind of need a different model, you need a different design. And that's what we look at closely when we advise our clients. And just in general when we give out tips and advice, and that is that your listing online is a little thumbnail and that's all you've got. And if you follow Amazon's model, it's got to have a white background, it's silhouetted. So if your product's white, you can hardly see it. You know, you have troubles there. So thinking carefully about how that listing looks compared to all the other ones is so critical because that's the number one way someone's gonna click. They're gonna see something that interests them, that looks different and not so rad. It doesn't have to be so radically different. It just has to look stylishly different. And that's the first simple thing you.

Can do now in conversations you and I have had in the past. That's kind of where you guys shine, right? I mean, that's kind of where you guys. That's in your wheelhouses, taking a product and really changing it to make it stand out. Am I remembering that right?

No, that's exactly what we do. I mean, we don't believe in me too products. We believe that a product needs to be extremely special, and we call it me only products. I mean, we hold 35 patents, so we understand the inventor and those that have something special and how important that is. But it's not just through patenting. It's also through having something that is a unique proposition visually and really resonates with the consumer. And for the most part here, the consumer is a woman. And so that's really where we start to shine, because there aren't a lot of women designing out there. When you talk about going factory, direct the factory. Tom and I have made some years to make 10 trips to China a year, and I don't think either one of us has ever come across an engineer or designer in China that is a woman. And if they don't understand the US Market and they don't understand women, then they really cannot resonate and connect. So there's a great advantage to designing yourself here.

Okay, well, let me. Let me ask you this, because I know a lot of my listeners have their heads down right now going, oh, my gosh darn it, I just spent everything I had to bring this product to market. And now you're saying it might not do well online because of differences it may have or similarities it may have with other online products. Is there anything that they can do to their product as it is without having a complete redesign for online? Is there anything they can do to it to make it stand out?

Yeah, I mean, the first thing is a photograph. So you can take a better photograph of it. You can take it from a better angle. You can shine a light on it so that if it has a metallic finish, it shows up, and it doesn't just look black or white, it looks pearl. So you can do so some things like that to make it shine. In this case, you really should hire someone to Take a great photograph for you who understands what they're doing, because that is your critical point to the market.

Okay. Yeah. And so we always, you know, one of our things is always listen, especially with packages and packaging and photography, you know, if that isn't your current business, then, you know, don't do it. Right. You know, step away. And this is not the place to skimp on. To skimp is in your packaging and your presentation and your photography. Okay, so got it. Number one, good photography. So the iPhone is out. Don't set it on the counter and take an iPhone picture.

Yeah, this is just not a case where you want to skimp there because you have that problem. So you just don't want to skimp. And another thing that you can do though is consider it's not all that difficult to push back on a lot of your manufacturers or suppliers and think about making a skim a different color for online. And, you know, this is a method you can go about doing. So when we start online first with a client and then go online to in store presentations and sometimes we hold their hands and sit and make buyer presentations. So we know exactly how it works. And when we do that online first, we actually design the product different for online than we're going to present to the store. So for instance, we did a gaming design product at one point and you know, the colors are brighter, they pop more, maybe a little more oriented to a very specific demographic of a gamer. First person shooter games are very hot. You know, maybe it's more suited for that. But then when it sells well, then you go into the Target, for instance, you would go into Target and you would present to them and say, this one's selling really well. But you know, for the Target customer, because this is going to be in store, we think it needs to be this set of colors and this difference and we show them their variation. And that also really works because the last thing that Target wants to do, although they want to know that Amazon sales are happening, they don't want to compete head to head with it. They want their own thing. So it kind of gives you that opportunity to have a variety already ahead of time.

Excellent. So I'm going to, I'm going to spin back to what you said is push back on your manufacturer. So if you're ordering 5,000 units and you're at a 5,000 unit minimum, how would you recommend that they push back to get them to do, let's say out of the 5000, let's do 1500 in a separate color Is that something that they can do? I mean, what would you suggest or what advice would you give them on pushing back that way, you know, if.

They'Re not being flexible on their minimum order quantities. And I find that a lot of our manufacturers that we work with are very flexible on it, to be honest with you, because they understand that a lot of things are going test first, online first, and the minimum orders are lower. So if they're not willing to negotiate on that, they're, they're very willing usually to mix materials, mix colors, whatever is necessary to make that full minimum order.

Okay, so you're saying if somebody's real rigid, you might want to look for a different manufacturer?

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's, that's the case. You know, we don't find that with the kind of people we work with. We, you know, because we, we nurture our manufacturers as we go through the process, which is a whole nother subject. But, but yeah, we, we find that they, they so eagerly want the business and they want to do what's right. And if, if mixing up the colors are going to help it sell, or mixing up the finish types are going to help it sell, even mixing up packaging. So doing a different package set for one store versus another. So if you were taking your 5,000 units and running it for various stores and giving them each a different package design, they're willing to do that too.

Okay, all right, well, and that brings up another point. But before I say that, so one good photo, hire somebody to take a good photo too. You know, maybe have a different color for your online than you're going to take to your brick and mortar business. And three, you mentioned packaging. Now a lot of clients come to me and they ask me, hey, if it's going to be online, do I have to have a pretty package or can it basically be brown box with a, you know, with a black stencil on it? What is your thought on that?

You don't have to have it packaged beautifully for online. I mean, you need to have it packaged. If it needs instructions or whatever, it can happen, but I think it's more, it's a better sign that you're a real company having and not just a one off product. And so when you're going to go and then present later to your buyers in store, you've got that already done and already ready to go. So I think it gives you credibility all around that you're a better brand. And it also makes it a little easier for people to refer you. It Feels professional.

Got it. One of the things we always say is that, you know, selling into retail or selling your own product into retail is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And you kind of have to be all in. You know, you have to make that decision. I am going to sell to retail. I'm not going to just dabble in it. And I think you're right. By finishing out your packaging, whether you're selling online or in store shows that you are all in. This is what you're going to do.

So that being said, I would give you the caveat that because it's a marathon, if it's going to compromise the quality of your product itself, because you have to, you know, allocate money for packaging online first. Especially in the first three months when you're just building your listing, the packaging isn't as important because you're practically giving away those. Those, you know, samples anyway. You're practically giving away those first units. So, you know, it's. It's probably okay if you need to wait. Just plan it in and make sure you do it before you start presenting to in store buyers.

Got it, Got it. Good advice, good advice. All right, so anything else?

I want you to think about your niche. So think about, you know, it along the lines of. And I know this sounds strange for a designer to say this because, you know, the design of the product should be the design of the product and it should work for everyone. But sometimes you really need to think of that niche market because you're online, you have the opportunity to reach someone very specific, very narrow. That's how you're going to do it with your advertising. You dial in a demographic and the bloggers that you want to reach and the reviewers that you want to really use your product. And it's very focused. So think about your product being very focused for that market, and it's okay for it to.

Have descriptions or have alternate packaging or even alternate colors and design that are targeted on that very particular niche market that you would never do when you went into the mass market. So when you go in store, you know, you would of course, make it more generic. And so I think that that's one of the things you just sort of really need to think about, do I have and can I resonate with a very targeted market? Because if you can gain traction with a really targeted market and have that design be reviewed really high, then that's going to help it sell in the general market, even if you have to make design changes later.

Great, great. Perfect. Good Advice.

So I always say I call it mmp. Lately that's what I've been calling it. It's market message and profit and pricing rather. And I know you just talked about pricing, which I thought was a great episode by the way, because pricing is really an art, it's not math. I keep telling people that it's not math, it's art.

But if you have considered that in that order before you design your product or before you finalize your design, before you start making a run, then it's going to be an easier product to market and sell.

Yeah, I think, I think you're right. And you know, I think so. So often entrepreneurs or inventors are so focused on just getting it produced, like just getting it so they can hold it in their hot little hand and say, here it is. And they're not necessarily, I find all that. They don't really, they're not really looking at, hey, this is going to be huge, this is going to be massive. So I should have thought about pricing before, I should have been looking at this or that. You know, they're just trying to do that one step of getting it produced and then all the backfill starts to happen and they can really get into some problems that way.

Well, and I, and I see that, I see that happening a lot, especially with inventors. You get focused on the making of it, that the invention itself is the thing and the market itself today is the thing. So if you don't know you have a market for it, you really shouldn't be making it yet.

I'm speaking to the choir.

I know it sounds simple, right? But yeah, but it's not. Hey, one quick thing I want to mention, just because you brought it up about pricing so that people have a real conceptual concept around it. Some of my clients that go online first, but they don't create a pricing strategy for everything. They just go online first and online. Especially if it's on your own website, you know, you can get yourself, hey, it cost me $10 to make it and get it here. So I'm gonna sell for $20, I'm gonna make you make 10 bucks. Woohoo. I'm, you know, I'm rocking. Because they haven't done their entire strategy that includes specialty and club store and big box and online. They forget that at some point they're gonna have to put a 50 point or a 45 point retailer in the middle of that mix and they've created this pricing history online and they're really stuck at that point. So when you're talking about pricing, I just want to make sure we put that out there, make sure you do your whole strategy first. And even though it could be two years before you go to retail or big box, you want to have that strategy and work that into your online focus as well. I think that.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, is that you have to have a bigger picture of the whole thing. So I just actually spent like two hours on the phone with.

Kind of a mentorship role for a friend, and they were trying to decide, finally, wholesale pricings for a kit that they were selling. And it was just that, you know, now they're selling a case, and it was just so confusing to them as to how to price this. And, you know, and it was because he hadn't thought out his whole strategy of how his whole business was going to work. He had just been doing, you know, individual. Individual services that was involved in this kit, providing those services himself. And when he was looking at, well, the kit cost me this, and I kept saying to him, it's not about what the kit cost costs you. It's about the overhead cost to make that kit. It's about the program cost for when it gets on the shelf. It's for, you know, I mean, there's so many things that factors that go into it, and you have to look at that and say, at the end of the day, is this a profitable business for me? Is this a profitable product for me? Because, you know, if it's not that, then why are you doing it?

Right. We always call it the not. Can you do it? But should you do it Exercising?

Yes. Should you do it? I know I say that so many more times to people. It's like, should we really make this product? And, you know, you can hire me, but should you? And, you know, that's a bigger question. It really is.

Yeah. And it's a. It's one that I find that people, they don't like to go through that sometimes because, you know, they have blood, sweat, and tears into their product. And, you know, it's like going on Shark tank and having Mr. Wonderful tell you that your product needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot.

I know, I know. And I feel for people. And I. And I get these inventors all the time, and I want to say, oh, your products, great. But, you know, sometimes you really just shouldn't say that to them. And, you know, and it. There's a nicer way to say it than it should be shot. But. And I try to do that. But you really do need to, you know, because sometimes though, I found like, I do this with Tom. He jokes it's kind of like brick over the head. Thing is, I'll say, you know what, this is terrible. We shouldn't make this. And it's just not working. It's not, you know, it's not what we should be making. And he'll go back and the next time, it's amazing. It's perfect. It does exactly what it was. So that constructive criticism taken well can really make a product successful.

I agree with you. And there's no nobility in leading people on.

It just leads to complete disaster.

Exactly. So one last, one other thing about designing for in store, because I just think it's really good for people to understand it's not just about, you know, getting the best price. And it's about also making sure that you have a good brand and a company behind it. You've talked about that a few times on the podcast already. But it's. If you have, if you've given it away too cheaply because you just, you know, doubled or tripled your cost of goods when you went online, you've already established yourself as not enough value. And if it's selling for more online and a buyer sees that, they're going to say, wow, there's a greater value here than I expected. Normally we sell these things at half that cost and this is still really selling well. Now you created a value for that. And so I always encourage a lot of it is about how you market it and not about what it is. So go out there and put out the best value proposition you can.

Are you guys hearing that? I mean, I'm not going to make her repeat that, but if you guys didn't write that down, you need to hit rewind and write it down. In fact, you need to hit rewind and just take notes on everything.

Tracy said it's the same advice. You know, my father told me that if you don't go in and ask for it, you know, ask for the right salary. When you go for your job interview and you ask for that money, you're not going to get it later. So if you're putting it in store, that's your ass. That's your time to go in with the price. You can always have a sale and bring the price down, but you can't raise it later.

You definitely cannot raise it later unless, you know, there's an economic meltdown. And gas is now, you know, fuel is now twice the price. But, yeah, no, most big box retailers are looking for value year over year. They're not looking for next year. You're going to raise your price.

Well, and we build that in when we design our products for our clients, because, you know, you want. We have an office chair at Costco that's been. It's $99, which is an incredible value. And it's really hard to make a chair that can sell for $99. But we built it in from the beginning that it would have longevity, that it wouldn't be just seasonal. So what happens is that we built in the ability to decrease the. To keep the price by decreasing our cost of goods, by being able to leverage the tooling and reduce the amortization of that and just do various things to be really efficient, because at some point you're. Your buyer will come in for either a price break or demanding to keep the price the same when you know everything else costs, the materials and cost of shipping and everything is going up around you. And now you have to keep your price stable. So you cannot go in there in the bottom. You don't have any room to move. You're going to lose your spot.

Yeah. And, you know, I think most. I'm not sure I've mentioned it too much in podcasting, but in all the things that I write, I'm always giving the advice, hey, if you have a really great first year at Costco, that's not the time to go out and buy Cabin and Vail. You know, you need to take that money and reinvest it in your product and bring your cost down so when the buyer comes back to you. And by the way, you're up against people every year. Just because you're in for one year doesn't mean that next year you're going to get the nod for that particular. You know, you guys have been in Costco for several years with your chair, but I'm sure every year somebody's knocking on their door saying, hey, take ours instead of theirs. And you have to have something to show the buyer, say, this is how we're supporting Costco. This is how we're supporting the member, and this is how we're showing value year over year. So you're absolutely right. And it's.

No, that's it, exactly. We've been in. It's now in its fourth year and its fourth iteration. So it just went into its fourth iteration. So we've won it back three times. And, you know, every year, the test from some other customer, from some other vendor comes in and my client panics. And I sit back and say that we have three advantages. One is that we actually already know how well we designed it so that we can continue to be better pricing. And we also know that we understand the consumer who's buying it. So when we do our next model, we already have a hint as to who that is. So they have the job of trying to look different than ours or being an exact knockoff. And we have the advantage of saying no. We just know what that customer wants next. So we kind of go through those things and we have an advantage because we built it in to begin with.

Smart. Super smart.

One of the great things about selling at Costco is that once you're in, you really have to kick yourself out. So either your product is poor or your logistics are poor or you're not able to show value year over year. But once you're in and the product sells well, it's generally going to be the manufacturer that screws it up, if anything.

Yeah. I mean, you still have a target on your back for, you know that everybody else wants that spot, so they're coming after it aggressively because they know it's going well. But you really do just have to screw up to lose it. So, you know, so it's on you.

It is. And that's a heavy burden. And, you know, I used to, I had a good friend of mine, a former colleague that used to sell audio video equipment into Costco and he won the business over Vizio. But every year Vizio was just breathing down his neck. And you could tell when that time of year came because he just wouldn't take phone calls. He was so stressed. I mean, yeah, that accounts for big business. And you know, the thought that, you know, Vizio, huge companies breathing down the small company's neck. But he won it year over year over year because he did the smart, you know, he did the smart things. And they were always looking at what Costco's best interests are as long as well as their own.

Yeah. Unlike other, you know, other of the mass retailers, you know, they direct source, but Costco doesn't do that for most part, except in some food areas and some other areas like that. But, you know, for the most part, most of their, like decorative accessories and all those other products, there's no direct sourcing that can happen on top of you. But that happens at Target and Staples and Sam's Club and, you know, and Walmart. Of course it happens. And so, you know, you're competing against your customer at the same time at almost all those other places. So Costco is actually kind of nice in that respect.

Yeah. And we didn't mean to turn it into a, hey, Costco event, but we.

Do love Costco here.

But we're both big fans of Costco. All right, well, any last minute pieces of advice that you could give the folks out there remembering that, you know, not the hundred million dollar clients that you guys are used to, but people that are really starting out and hopefully at some point will be the hundred million dollars and even more. Any parting words?

Yeah, I mean, I think that you need to recognize if you need design help. Especially, I mean, if it's not. If you're really all about the function or the taste of your food or whatever that is, or you need packaging help, you have to recognize that those are your weaknesses. Because you can, yes, try to learn it. But design is not one of those things you should learn. It's not like learning how to code a WordPress website or something like that. This is. There's no templates out there. There's no clip art. It doesn't work like that for a designing product. And experience means a lot.

You just can't teach that. I wish I could. I try really hard in my blogs and while I'm out there in podcasts trying to talk to people about the importance of design, but I can't really teach them how to do that themselves. It's not a DIY thing. So if you don't have it, then seek it out. And try to seek it out from someone who understands your market. They don't necessarily have to understand your product, but they need to understand your market. So if you're going to go to a graphic designer to create a package for you, make sure they've done retail packaging and really check that, because I've seen some horrendous packaging come out that while they look pretty, the information is so unreadable, it's so not usable when it's on the shelf, it doesn't attract attention and you've paid good money for that. So you need to make sure that you're hiring the right person for that.

I think that that's probably the best piece of advice. And if you guys can go back to something Trisha said early in our conversation, but understanding who is buying your product and are you speaking or do you even know how to speak to that person or that demographic if you're honest with yourself about first, who's buying my product and second, do I even know how to speak to that person. If your answer is no, you need to go find somebody that knows how to do that. You need to go find somebody, because you can put the same amount of money in and speak to the right people. And you can put the same amount of money in and speak to the wrong people.

Yeah, so we actually, you know, it's. We do. All our clients are not $100 million clients. I should be really careful with that. We take inventors. Yeah, we take a lot of inventors over the. You know, each time for the years. But they're serious about it. They're. They're serious about the tactics and getting to market. And the reality is a lot of them come to us because they've done it wrong, like spent tens of thousands of dollars doing it wrong and. Or trying to do it themselves, and it just not happening. And so.

You can waste a lot of time. That's what I say is, you know, when we design something, for the most part, we can do products within three to six months pretty quickly. You know, for some of our clients, we design hundreds of products in a year because they go from trade show to trade show. So we're constantly filling it. The design process is fast and easy for us. The development process is too. But the issue with it is, is that if you take time to get to market, you've lost that market nowadays. So paying a little bit more, but getting it done faster is money, you know, is money in your pocket getting it actually done rather than you trying to do it yourself. And some of them learn the hard way.

Sage advice, folks. I hope you're listening. Well, listen, if you need to get ahold of Tracy, you can find her at has. That's H A Z zDesigns.com if you want to check out her podcast. She told you before, it's wtfff.

And you can find me on social media has design. And I actually answer myself. So you'd be surprised how often I get LinkedIn or tweeted. And I actually am answering that.

There you go. So she's available, and you can have those conversations directly with her.

If you want to find us, you can find us on Twitter @TLBConsult, you can find us on Facebook @ TLB Consulting, and of course, you can always find us on our website@tlbconsulting.com if you want to reach out to us via email. Our podcast is now on itunes. So on the shelf on itunes, it's available. And if you liked what you heard, please hit subscribe and go check out Tracy's podcast. Tracy, thanks so much for taking the time. We stretched it out a little bit there, but. But all really great information, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to talk to our.

Listeners. Well, thanks, Tim. I really appreciate you having me. And we'll talk.

Again. We will. We will. I think we brought up several topics that we need to discuss, so hopefully we'll be able to hash that out.

Later. Sounds.

Good. All right, everybody, thanks so much, and we'll see you on the shelf.