Engaging Binge Podcast Listeners To Super-Share Your Show By Making It Remarkable With Dr. Peter McGraw, Host Of Solo

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all noise with the Binge factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I'm bringing you to today a guest who has pivoted his show very successfully into a second show that's way more successful than the first. Not only is it personally successful and personally resonates for him, it was mission an interest area for him, but it's really in complete contrast to his first show and we're going to hear a little bit about that. But also what I love about this and I'm so glad I can bring to you someone who enjoyed the process of podcasting, enjoyed what they were doing, figured out some things, learned some things, and now pivoted it into an amazing show and has taken those learnings and really started its own thing. Right now it's on its own trajectory and I think that that's really interesting. And so he's staying challenged in the process of being a podcaster. Full disclosure here. Dr. Peter McGraw, my guest is also one of my clients and I don't like to bring you lots of my clients because I don't want this to become all about us. And I really have asked him not to talk all about us here. But I wanted you to hear because what he's doing behind the scenes, I can attest to, is really working for him and has really seen some phenomenal growth in his show. So I can say he's not just saying that. It's absolutely true. And then one of the other funny stories is that when his first show is called I'm Not Joking, and he was interviewing as a behavioral scientist. So Dr. Peter McGraw, he's a behavioral economist. It is an interesting model that he was doing where he was interviewing comedians and talking about the business of comedy and other things like that. And it was a really interesting show with amazing cover. And of course, in the blog post for this episode, we'll share this with you or you can go check on your app I'm not joking, Dr. Peter McGraw, and you could check it out. But the funny thing is I was interviewing Stephanie McHugh, who's been on this show before. You may have heard her. She's an earlier episode where she was talking about how to add comedy and some comedic elements into your podcast. And when I asked her to be on the show, she said to me, I was just on a podcast. And I said, well, which podcast were you on? And she says, I'm not joking. And I said, oh my gosh, I'm so proud. That's one of my clients. And her answer to me was I chose to be on the show because I loved she called it the Icon. She loved the COVID art. She loved the visual description of his show. It made her want to be on his show. So there's the power of it. And so Peter doesn't know this, but he's been in an example of every presentation I've given for probably the last year because of that model. So he's a part of the presentation of what really great cover art looks like. He's an example of Best Case and his new show called Solo, and it's got a longer title than that, it's the Single Person's Guide to a Remarkable Life, also has a great cover art. So it's a little bit different because it has to incorporate such a long title, but it's still got that great essence of who Peter is and the style that he likes to bring into things. So Dr. Peter McGraw, the host of Solo, is a behavioral economist, sought after professional speaker and a global expert in the scientific study of humor. He directs the humor research lab hurl, hosts the podcast I'm Not Joking and is the co author of the Humor A Global Search for what makes things funny. Dr. McGraw is a professor of Marketing and Psychology at the University of Colorado Leeds School of Business. He teaches MBA courses for the University of Colorado, Boulder, University of California, San Diego and London Business School. His work has been covered by BBC, cnn, npr, Wired, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Harvard Business Review. He recently published his second book and this came out of his podcast I'm Not Joking Shtick to what the masters of comedy can teach you about breaking rules, being fearless, and building a serious career. I love that title and all the links for that book and everything will be in the blog post for this episode so you will want to check that out. Anyway, everyone, I'm so excited to bring Dr. Peter McGraw to you and let you hear some more about what it's like to go from one show to another. So we go from I'm not joking to Solo.

Peter, thanks for joining me. I am so glad we're finally connecting and talking because I've been following your shows for a while, and I just love the interplay and the way you've sort of merged into this new model of show. So, as I mentioned in the intro, your show is called Solo, and you're a behavioral scientist. When in that process, did you decide that the first show wasn't quite a right fit for you, but that second show was going to be where you wanted to take it and where you wanted to go?

Yeah. So I'll try to keep this brief because it's unfortunately a very long story. So the first show is called I'm Not Joking, and it's a look at the lives of funny people. And I launched that show for two reasons. I launched the show. One reason is I had a book idea, and I wanted to trick people into talking to me deeply about the ideas.

You wanted to trick them? It didn't take much tricking from what I heard there, because they happily talked to you.

It's true. Yes, it's true. It's just one of those things, like, it's a much more compelling situation to do a podcast. People really bring it when they know that it's going to be out there in the world, and they're much more present, they're much more thoughtful, they're much more entertaining. They're much, I think, better in a lot of ways. So I use. I did 100 episodes of I'm Not Joking, and many of the guests and many of the stories made it into my recent book, Shtick to Business. The second reason I did that podcast was I'm used to being on the other side of the microphone, so to speak. I'm used to being the person being interviewed, and I wanted to see what it would be like, could I develop the skill to be a proper and, dare I say, good interviewer. And so. So in that way, the podcast was very, very much for me. I joke oftentimes that I had one listener, and that was me. And so I made a podcast that was meant for me. And I'll be honest, Tracy, that is reflected in the listener counts of the podcast. Like, it never blew up.

It never got to where it should be. No, the thing is that you have some really interesting conversations, and I'm not joking. You're getting, in some respects, comedians to be serious about some things, and that's an interesting model. And I always thought it would take off. Like, I really thought there was an audience that wanted to hear that. But finding them, I think, is the really hard Part, Right?

Indeed. And because I never was motivated to build it into something big, I never did like I did very little promotion of the podcast. And frankly, it's in a competitive space. Right. So comedians were. Are at the forefront of podcasting. They picked it up very, very early. Comedians don't like gatekeepers. And the nice thing about podcasts is there is no gatekeeper, there's no booker, there's no club manager, there's no one saying you get to go and you don't get to go now, Solo. Or as I call it, Solo the Single Person's Guide to a Remarkable Life. It has the longest title probably out.

There, but it needs it because otherwise I might assume it's about Han Solo or something like that, right?

Indeed. Yes, that's right. That podcast came out of an idea which I was going to be doing what I call a mini retirement or a semi retirement. And I was going to write a book about turning 50. And then I realized it was not going to be a book about turning 50, it was going to be turning a book as a 50 year old bachelor. Right. So how do you live the bachelor life and how do you live it well? And then some things got changed up in terms of the timing of the retirement, semi retirement as I was calling it, sort of an extended sabbatical. And I decided instead of writing the book, I was going to launch it as a podcast. So originally it was actually called Stag the Bachelor's Guide to a Remarkable Life. And I decided not to do that for two reasons. One is it just didn't have the right look and feel in today's era, so to speak.

Yeah, it seems a little. Yeah, I understand where you're going with it. It didn't seem as respectful as it needed to be for the tone you wanted to set.

Even though I'm a progressive guy, I'm not one of these. I don't know the right way to sort of put it, but I'm not the sort of libertarian, brash kind of person who that kind of podcast might. Might have wanted the fight and might have wanted the controversy and might have wanted all those things. The other reason is that I actually think that being single and being single by choice is as much of a challenge for women as men, if not more. And so I wanted to have a big tent and so I pivoted to Solo.

Yeah, Stag is a little male oriented. A lot male oriented.

Right?

Yeah.

So, yes. And so. And I'm very glad I did it. I'd say probably 2/3 of my listeners are women. That's my suspicion, based upon feedback and so on. And it's completely different than anything I've ever done before. And it's a podcast that is designed for listeners. I want lots and lots and lots of listeners. I feel like it's a valuable offering.

So isn't that interesting? Your first one was really designed for you.

Yes.

And the second one was really designed for the listeners. And that's actually what has happened in your shows, that they showed up.

Yes.

And your show has been growing at a great rate, which is why we're having this conversation right now.

Indeed. Yeah. So I have done very little promotion of the podcast also, in part because I like making things, I don't like promoting things. And yet by my guess is it's organic search, that is people are typing stuff into itunes and Google and so on about this. And then what I know for sure is the word of mouth is out of this world. So my listeners tell other people. Yeah, like not just two or three people, dozens of other people.

See, that's fantastic. You have a show that is really getting shared and that's really working for you. Now, you overlapped the two shows. So you started solo while you were still doing I'm Not Joking. And how was that for you? And when did you make the decision to end? I'm Not Joking.

Yeah. So I sort of knew that I was going to do a hundred episodes of I'm Not Joking. What I decided to do was I was going to wrap I'm Not Joking at the launch of the book Shtick to Business. But that was April 1st of 2020. I launched solo the last week of 2019. I launched five episodes as a soft launch and then I got it going in earnest in January. So I had about a three month overlap in the two. I would not suggest doing that to people.

It's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work to get a new podcast going and then continue doing it.

So it might have been okay if you just had all the others in the can and you were just launching them. But yeah, having to do both at the same time was a lot of work.

And I cheated a little bit. Like, I have a couple episodes that were on both. Like, I did them. One of my most popular episodes is what Kristen Newman Was Doing While youe Were Breeding. So Kristen is a comedy writer. She wrote a book called what I Was Doing While youe Were Breeding. It's a very fun, funny book about her single days as a solo traveler. And the book's a little risque and fun and cheeky and so on. And so I interviewed her both for I'm not joking.

So that's nice. So you had this nice little overlap there, which is actually always a really good tie in to share the new thing that you're working on because you have followers, whether you realize it or not, or you think you only have a handful, but they are following you because they like you and so they want to know what else you're doing. So by not sharing that, you're missing out on that cross traffic. So you do want to at least do that. There won't be 100% of them that will come over, but a subset will.

Yes, it was a tough few months there, but it was necessary, I'll be honest. I didn't want to hide Solo anymore. Like it was there, it was ready to go. I had been working on the ideas for a long time. I had made the pivot in my mind that I was willing to put this part of my life on display, which frankly, was a little bit scary. I did it with a bit of trepidation and it's been very nice to see people respond. And now that they have, I'm now getting serious about promoting it.

That's true.

How big can we make this thing?

That's right. So you mentioned that you started out not feeling as competent as an interviewer as you were as being the person on the other side of the microphone. So how do you feel you've done and what did you do to increase your skill set along the way?

Okay, so it's still a work in progress, I'll be honest, Tracy, and in some ways I feel like I've regressed a tiny bit with Solo.

So I'm Not Joking is a pretty standard interview style podcast. And I'll interject some stories here or there, but for the most part, the way I sort of thought about it is the ideal episode is somewhere between 90, 10 and 60, 40. That is, my guest is speaking somewhere between 60 and 90% of the time and I'm speaking between 40 and 10%.

Of the time, which is good for almost every interview show, I should say.

Yes. And it works out well. And it, depending on the guests, you know, it's sometimes closer to 60 and sometimes it's closer to 90. Solo feels closer to 50, 50. It feels more like a conversation, but it also is. I go into an episode with an agenda. I go into an episode with a message that I want to make sure gets through.

So now you're Actually, this is. I just want. For those of you who haven't yet listened to the show because you were just finding out about Solo right now. So I want to kind of. There's a special. I'm going to call it a pre intro that you do on the show, and it's. Are you scripting that out? Are you planning that? And that's setting the tone for it. Do you do it before the episode or do you do it after you've recorded the interview?

Yeah. So, okay, so I will tell you this for. I'm not joking. I barely did any prep, honestly, Like, I had a standard set of questions that I would ask. I obviously, I got the bio together and I did a little. I probably would say I did 30 to 45 minutes of prep for any one episode of. I'm not Joking.

For those of you out there listening who don't have a show, that's actually really typical. So this is kind of very common with interview shows and podcast hosts. So what Peter's doing isn't like, he wasn't falling off on the job. This is common.

And it was easy and I could be flexible and I could let the conversation go where it needed to go and so on. Solo is because what I do is. So I have. I kind of have three flavors of episode in Solo. One is an interview with an expert that's designed to impart some wisdom and some ideas. The next one is an interview with a remarkable single and a glimpse into their life and how they're doing it and so on. And then the last is something I call Solo Thoughts, where it's just me talking where I work through an idea more deeply without a guest.

Now, those are somewhat new. You've just. You haven't done a ton of them throughout.

I've done four. I'm working on the fifth right now.

I have to say that after having listened to the show that I like your solo thoughts.

Oh, that's nice. Thank you. I don't. No one's actively complained, but I need to look at the listener counts to get a sense of how are they doing. I will tell you this. They're useful for me in terms of developing ideas, and I felt bad because I was starting to crowd out my guests too much. This is where the regression has come in, is sometimes I have such a strong opinion, in part because I am the subject matter expert in some ways.

Right.

And I want this to be a useful show, one that has takeaways and is inspirational and so on. And so at times, I'm worried that I ask a question and then I go ahead and answer it. That's a weakness as an interviewer.

But you know what? I think this is a struggle a lot of podcasters face. So you're not alone there either. And I think that your choice to do the solo thoughts is actually a really good model because it allows you the vehicle to do it so you don't feel like you have to do it in the other shows. So you've given yourself that structure that allows you to do that.

Yeah. And it feels good. And now I am doing a lot of prep. I mean, I might do so a solo thoughts episode I might work on for six to 10 hours in order to get those ideas completely right.

And are you outlining scripting? Like how are you structuring them?

Yeah, I'm basically writing out what I say, but I'm not writing out in such a way that I'm fully reading it.

It doesn't sound that way. So that's good.

Yeah, that's very nice. And then an episode might take, depending on the episode, it might take me a half a day to prep it. I'm doing reading, I'm taking notes, I'm carefully crafting the sort of where I want the conversation to go. I'm much more heavy handed and I feel a lot more pressure because I actually have listeners. Like when, you know, the thousands of people are listening, it really does raise the stakes.

Right. We want to really deliver them something of great value. So wonderful. Well, there is some interesting models around asking questions and I think listening to Peter's first show and you actually set this up in the very first show that you do. In the very first interview that you do, you actually mentioned that you must have had a pre conversation with your guest about what was going to be the first question and then you reveal the first question. And I think that that's such an interesting model of it is like that's where you were and now hear a much more comfortable thematic questioning going on. So you're not asking the same questions ever. There's a thematic questioning and I actually think that that's really a sign of you becoming a much better interviewer.

Well, I mean, I am working on it. I pay attention to interviewers much more now. When I listen to a podcast, I often am trying to pay attention to not just what the guest is saying, but how the interviewer is behaving. It's a skill. I will say I do one thing very, very well and that is I tie up loose ends.

You don't leave that question unasked. The follow up.

I think it's annoying for a listener because these are conversations. You might have three things going on and there's something that came up that then you digress and then you digress again. And if you never come back to that thing, I think it can be disappointing because as a listener, you're like, well, I want to know what that person.

Yeah, there's nothing worse than being the listener on the other end going, ask this.

Why didn't you ask that question?

Yeah. And so I'm pretty good at keeping track of the conversation. And that's something that I do in my own personal life a lot.

Well, I want to do our five things. So we have the five best ways I want to do it right now because a couple of things I want to follow up on is you're starting to hint at that. And I don't want to go down that rabbit hole until we let you do your five things. So the first way we ask is about the best ways to. To get great guests. And I assume you're being very picky about your guests.

I'm starting to be. I would say this. So what I'm looking for in a guest. So I have leaned very heavily on people I know. I've leaned very, very heavily on people I know. So. Because that is like, I know they have the charisma. I know that we have a good rapport. I know that they're going to be sort of supportive of the ideas in my perspective. So I do guest co hosts.

That's what you call them.

Right. I call guest co host. So. And almost always the guest co host is a woman. And I do that to provide a little bit of balance because it's a lot of male with me talking. And so my guest co hosts are almost always women. And it's to provide a little bit more balance.

So then you're both interviewing or asking questions of sort of almost panel like, but of the third person who you bring in.

Indeed. Now I'm leading it. And then my guest co host is sort of. It's almost like the person on the couch. So, you know, you've got Conan and Andy Richter, you know, like, so it has a little bit of that feel because I don't need my guest co host to do too much prep.

But I think that's really interesting that you're providing that because you're bringing in that female perspective, but also because you don't have two men in that process. We're also not getting confused by the voices.

Indeed.

Because that can happen. And the other side is like, who's talking and which one is this? So it gets confusing.

I've gotten that feedback a little early on. Yeah. And so sometimes I try to use names a little bit more.

Yeah.

To help differentiate if I have especially two other voices that are similar. Three People also is a more energetic podcast. It's a funnier podcast. You can riff off each other a little bit more. People can pick their spots. There's less pressure to perform when it's three people. So I'm looking for charisma, I'm looking for content knowledge. I'm looking for someone who's inspirational. So when I do my remarkable solos, I want someone who's truly remarkable. Someone who you look at their life and you go, well, I may not want that life, but wow, that's neat.

To get insightful at the end of the day. So having that connection matters is what you're saying. And so like having that. So now, as you're starting to reach out and go further, how are you going to keep up that sort of rapport building?

Yeah. So one thing that I'm starting to look more to start reaching for bigger names, that is people whose name is going to help grow the podcast, whose social media following is going to help grow the podcast. Now, the nice thing about those people is they're sort of naturally charismatic.

They're already out there, they already built there.

So I have. I actually had an episode that just came out called what the Buck? And it's with Michael Buckley, who's a former YouTube star and now life coach. And I found him via Twitter where he was tweeting unapologetically about how much he loves being single.

So you found some synergy and thought there.

And Michael brings it in the interview like, he's so energetic and so thoughtful and so well prepared. And then when the podcast comes out, he immediately promotes it. So now I'm starting to look for that sort of next level guest. And eventually I want Whoopi Goldberg and I want Jennifer Aniston and I want Chris Isaac and I want David Lee Roth. Like, I want super famous, wonderful, remarkable people who are very comfortable with their single life.

I'm going to go down a little rabbit hole here for everybody listening, though. So what Peter's tapping into is Michael Buckley is a super sharer. Right. So because he's a YouTube star, he understands the power of influence, power of sharing. You want some name recognition of all those names he just dropped.

Right.

Who wouldn't love to have Jennifer Aniston on their show. Right. It sounds really great. I'd totally listen to it. Right. So you think about that as that. But a lot of times those celebrities are terrible at sharing.

I think you're right about that.

Because they have team. It has nothing to do with it. They don't do it themselves. And this is a personal topic. And so their teams are hesitant to share it. Like, what if that upsets her? So they may not do as well with sharing that on your behalf. So having a balance between the ones that you know are super sharers and the ones that really bring you, like, great the listeners, it's really in it for the listener and not for the sharing value. You might need to have a mix of both.

Okay, well, I'm not turning down Whoopi Goldberg.

No, I wouldn't turn her down. I certainly wouldn't turn her down. And she'll probably share it.

Yes, that's a really interesting point. I mean, I don't know how other podcasters do this. Like, I have to admit, I'm a little haphazard when it comes to if someone's available and they're good, I'm going to grab them. And then I've been doing also these little sort of mini series. So I just wrapped up a miniseries on singles in the marketplace. So I did an episode on the rise of single living demographically and culturally. I did an episode on selling to singles. So about entrepreneurship and businesses recognizing the buying power and unique needs of singles. And then I did one on best innovations for singles that's going to coincide with Singles Day, which is the biggest shopping event in the world. Mostly driven by China.

Yes, driven by China. I would say that that's really the case.

And so I have a document with all my ideas, crazy ideas, potential guests and so on. But what you talking about, these super shares is interesting as I think about my remarkable singles and my experts.

Yeah, well, as we're growing shows, we need to think about these things about like, yes, we want some really great sharing going on and that's a primary interest. But sometimes the sharing and the celebrity status just don't go together over. I just know this from years and years of doing this. Some of my worst sharers were the biggest celebrity names that I had on my show or on in my articles. And it's the case of their structure of how they share things has nothing to do with them not being great people and wanting to share it. So. And they make great guests.

You know, one of the Things about getting a big name person is then you can use that person to get other big name people.

Now that will work for you even more. Right. So there's a reasoning for it, but it may not be. You may not get the results from that one single show that you expected or that one single celebrity and remembering that you're using it as a whole package here. So great. Well, let's go into the next best way. So the best way to increase listeners, you're now tapping into that. You're now thinking about you've got a show that's structured to be a really high share show and people are showing you that they're going to do that. Your listeners are showing though. But where are you going to tackle, how are you going to increase listeners?

Okay, so I am going to. I'm doing two things right now. One is I'm actually going to do some old school advertising.

Whoa.

Yeah. So I'm going to do. Well, I'm going to do it new school, as in digital. And this is terrible because I teach an MBA course in marketing management and I talk about how you have to create value and you have to communicate value. You can't just build it and they will come. And so you need to find a way to cut through the clutter, to connect to people and so on. And so I have, for the first time in my life, actually, I'm starting a digital advertising campaign for my new book, Stick to Business, and then also for Solo. And I'm going to do it, I'm doing it hesitantly on Facebook. I'm going to do it then. And then I'm going to do some Reddit for solo and some LinkedIn for stick to Business. So I'm going to use Facebook as my testing ground because Facebook is a great way to test ideas and to do some really good micro targeting. That's the first thing. And then the second one is I'm going to start trying to find podcasts that I might be able to go onto and do that cross promotion well.

And I think that that's a great model for you because many podcasters, they may have a subset of their listeners that are going to be great solo listeners out there, but the rest of what they're doing is dealing with relationships or self worth or whatever that might be.

Right.

So you've got other things out there that they are, they're dealing with on their show. That's only a subtopic for you.

Indeed. I want to ask you about one thing I'm doing and if you Think it's a worthwhile thing. So my 50th episode is coming out two days from when we are taping this.

Wonderful.

I'm doing a press release. Good on it. And I'm just using Fiverr, some folks who have distribution networks. But I have a press release about sort of looking back and looking ahead of the 50 episodes. It's not costing very much. It took some time to write up the press release. It's going to take a few hundred dollars to distribute it. And I'm curious what your reaction is to that.

So sometimes it really works well, especially if you're tapping into a topic that people want to discuss right now. And we're living in a world and a time where some of are forced to be solo and maybe they need to look at the bright side of it. So it is a topic of interest to people to write about or to explore. So just you pushing yourself out there as an expert in that and a visible expert in that. It could be just timed really well to do that. A lot of times press releases don't do well because they're not going to the right type of media where they're going to be interested in the subject. So it's a little too broad brush general. And maybe it hits and maybe it doesn't. And if I am a writer, maybe I'll remember that you when something comes up. But that's a big maybe because you get thousands of press releases literally a week. And so yeah, so the timing of press releases is really the hard part. But if you're really targeting an audience and press list that is ideal for you, then you can do really well with that. And you've got a topic and a timing because it's your 50th episode. So you're giving them something relevant reason to be out there in the press. You're not just pushing stuff. You have a relevant reason. You've got an anniversary and then you also have then a relevant topic that I may be interested in or hadn't considered up to this point as a writer. So it's the press list at the end of the day that is going to be critical to its success.

Got it. Okay.

And so if you are dialed in with that and like you know that there's these publications you'd love to be a part of. That's where I would. I would do a targeted list. Like I almost always pull my own press list rather than use a blanket run out. So I do use a service to write a proper press release. Write most of it myself, but they format it. And you want that. You don't want to do it yourself. Press releases have to be written in a certain way.

Yeah. It's not a good use of time. The other one is to think about this as I've got this three part series coming up that's going to coincide with Singles Day. That might be another opportunity.

See, now this is. You're in advance of Singles Day. Now that's an important thing to be far enough in advance to be in their head about what they're going to write about on that day. Because I want to write about something timely if I'm a writer. And so it's coming up, you remind them that it's coming up, you remind them the power of it and then talk about why your show, why you. So first it's about them. This is the same lesson we teach here on this show. About your podcast. Right. Your podcast is first and foremost about the listeners, about what they're going to get, about the value that they provide. Your press release shouldn't be written any differently.

Yes.

Right. It should be written in saying, why is this relevant for you to be writing about right now? Here's the power now, why am I the expert that should be sharing this with you and should be a part of that? That's your second part. And the third piece is then what we could do together, how we could collaborate and make that a better future.

Tracy, you're so good.

There you go. Okay, we got on the air training here on top of everything. Love it. We fit that in. Okay, let's keep going with our five things. The next thing is encouraging engagement. And here's something that I want to point out, and the reason why I really want to get to this segment with Peter here is that you have questions from, I'm assuming, listeners. The way that it's set up. So you're getting questions in, so you're encouraging engagement somewhere along the way and they're asking you questions. So how is that working for you? And how are you getting that to work?

Okay, so, you know, to step back. I have this goal, you know, a theme. I want to cover these things. I didn't answer. This is me wrapping up stuff. I actually do the teaser within an hour of finishing the podcast.

So it's good.

I save the files, I make notes, I write out the teaser, I tape it, you know that it's there. So honestly, I do a lot of just conversing with my listeners, like people I know who are loyal listeners.

Where are you doing that? How are you doing that?

Honestly, I'm doing it via phone, text and email.

But you're getting your listeners to reach out to you, so somehow you're engaging them.

Yes. So I will tell you this, Tracy. This is the most bizarre thing I've ever had happen with. I make a lot of things in my life. I've never had a project that has received so many unsolicited text messages, social media messages and emails from people I know, used to know, and never have known before.

So you've hit a nerve of something in a good way, not a negative way, but you've hit on a nerve of something that people have been tapped into and ready to talk about.

It's incredible. I also do a monthly Zoom call. I have a very small email list that people have signed up for. I do a monthly Zoom call and now I call it the Solo Advisory group sag, which is a joke, a bad joke.

I get it from your other days.

Yes. That I can email with questions about the podcast, things I'm thinking about doing. And by the time this comes out, I will have launched an invite only Slack channel.

Nice.

For my listeners who want to have a deeper engagement and conversations and build. I want to build a community so people can go to petermcgraw.org, the solo page, and they can fill out a little brief interview and apply to be part of the solo community.

I love that what you're creating, though, is a really easy way for people to get in touch with you. They have a question, they can just send it in and it's not convoluted and difficult. And you've given them also multiple ways within to do that. Slack is a quick and easy way. I type in my app and I'm reaching out to you. Zoom. I have to plan it and join, but I can have a deeper conversation with you there. So you've given them different modes to engage that fit them.

Yeah. So that's well said. I have to admit, I'm kind of throwing it against the wall.

Seeing what works.

Seeing what works. So, for example, I set up a forum on my page like I wanted to be able to own it and it was a total failure. Like it was a complete. And it wasn't. It wasn't.

Because you have to drive people there. It's harder.

The UX wasn't very good and you needed a meat in the room to make a forum work. And so it's coming down, is going away.

But Slack has already got people in it, so it May make more sense there to have it almost be forum like there. Interesting. Well, I love that you're trying all of these things. You can see the behavioral scientist in you coming across. Right.

Yeah.

So now we talk about producing in a professional way. And full disclosure here. Peter's one of my clients, so we're not going to talk about us as your producer. This is not this point where you're supposed to be saying how great we are. I want you to talk about the parts that you do and that you consider to be making a more professional show for everyone out there.

Well, I mean, I will tell you, there's some things that we collaborated on that do matter. Like, I love the introduction to Solo.

It is great. It is really good.

You know, it's funny. Like, I'm going to give a shout out to him. There's a Canadian musician called Brad Sucks, and he's one of my favorite musicians. And I got to know him via Twitter, and so I reached out to him and I said, hey, would you mind if I use some of your music for the intro? And so that's actually one of his songs. It's one of my favorite songs.

So it resonates. It's a really great. It sets a great tone. So you really picked well there because it sets a great tone for. I'm gonna call it the upbeatness of the theme that you're trying to set with Solo.

Yes. And then we found a really good voiceover artist who just had, again, an.

Upbeat, happy and the female energy because she's. You have a woman's voice. Yep.

Yes, that's right. And actually, one of my guests, Mary Dom, she has shown up twice. She's a really fantastic writer. One day, we spent almost an entire day workshopping and fixing the copy for the intro. Because I don't know if you remember this, but the voiceover artist did the original. While it looked good on paper, it didn't sound good.

Yeah. This is a common thing, Peter.

Right.

When you speak it, it doesn't always sound the way you wrote it and intended it.

So the intro, I think, is really great. I think the teaser matters. So I keep the teaser short. It's probably a minute. I don't think it's ever more than two and a half minutes, I don't think kind of thing. But I think it's a good setup. And I tease. I'm like, if you're going to get anything from this episode, you got to hear her answer to this. And I teach you well.

See, now, this is a strategy that you use, Peter, that I want to point out to those of you. This is one of the reasons I'm like I always say to everyone, there are reasons I'm telling you to go listen to his show. It may not be the show for you, it doesn't matter, you're married, whatever. But go listen to solo because you want to hear how Peter does this. And this is one of those cases. So your teaser at the beginning, which is what he's calling is like, it's kind of like a pre introduction because you still introduce your guest as a normal part of your interview process. But this is the pre intro and that pre intro teaser portion of it. You do do what a lot of people say not to do, which is you tell them what the heart of what's going to happen. But I think it's a really good strategy as a writer. What do we do? We tell them what we're going to tell them. Then we tell them. Then we tell them what we told them. Right. Like this is the thing. So you're following that model in your teaser, in your pre intro, and it working for you because it's telling me why I should really listen. You didn't tell me what it was. You just told me like the heart of what I'm going to get from here. And I want to hear that. So this is a really, really good way to go about it. And I think it's really, is one of the most professional ways to go about your show. And this is you're producing a professional way. That's the heart you've added.

And the last thing is I do some light editing. I'm not afraid to cut something out that didn't land. I mean, there's sort of the normal.

Editing of your content editing. It's not about like taking out ums and ahs. You're talking about taking out something that just didn't fit.

It didn't fit, it didn't land, it got off track. I don't take out more than, you know, anywhere between a minute and five minutes worth of material, but like three minutes of something that's sort of off track is all you need for someone to stop listening.

See, producing in a professional way, you're controlling, you're curating for the listener here. That's right, yeah. Really important. Well, thank you. That's such a good, important information. The best ways to monetize it. You're at that stage, you've started to have a lot of listeners. You're starting to look at that what are some of the ways you're looking at monetizing your show? It's a million dollar question, right?

I don't know yet. So I don't. I'm happy to do sponsorships as long as I believe in the product.

You've done a couple.

I've done a little bit of sponsorship. I have a mask company called Rapture Masks. W R A P T U R E. I really believe in the product. I use the product.

It's a friend's business, so there's a nice tie. When you talk about it. And this is. You do a host mention ad and when you're doing it, it's obvious that you think it's a good product.

It's fantastic. Yes. And then I have. I've done one actually with the Michael Buckley, which is a candle company, which is Wax Crescent, which is one of my listeners and guest co hosts. So she started this company as a solo entrepreneur. I did that one mostly just to help her out. And also I think her candles are fantastic, especially her mandals, her candles for men. And so.

Oh, I think there's a gift in the process. Right, everybody? Right now, I'm writing that down. Mandelsta.

So I'm open to sponsorship. I have a long list of things from like a Patreon model, which is support the podcast, that kind of thing. Merchandise, coaching, post Covid events and so on. I think the only thing that I'm a little hesitant to do is ads. I'll be honest, it's the one thing I'm a little hesitant to do, is to sell ads. Now, I could.

I think it might be a little early for you. So I think the hesitancy is at the right point.

Yeah, it seems. And I can imagine some certain products and services that I would be happy because I feel like they would provide such value to the listeners, but I haven't cracked the monetization. I want to turn the question around to you, Tracy. And knowing what you know, as the expert in growing and building podcasts and making them not only useful to listeners, but also potentially valuable to the people, you know, because as you know, I mean, I spend thousands of dollars a year making this podcast and tens of thousands of dollars of my own time making this podcast.

Right. That's where the real value, you know, where the real value is spent and made. So.

And it's charity right now. And so how do I move it from not for profit into profit?

It's service. It's service out there. Right? Yeah. So you're serving a Community. And that's really important. Well, before I answer that question, I'm going to ask you the binge factor question. Okay, so your show is proven, because you have had the listener base, it's proven that it's already a bingeable show. Okay, it's bingeable. They're sharing it. They're listening to all your episodes. Why do you think that is?

Oh, I think that this is a terribly underserved market. There's 128 million single adults in the United States. Minimum 15% of them are single by choice. Half of them are not interested in dating. This is a group of people that is huge. And the world is not speaking to them. And when they do speak to them, they speak down to them.

So that's it right there. So what I usually do is psychoanalyze your show and say why, I believe from having listened to so many shows and understanding binge listeners intimately, why your show is a bingeable show. And that's it. It is the tone that you are setting, Peter, that is making the difference. It is because you are not talking down to them. You are not criticizing them for their choices or making them say this is the only choice. You're saying this is your choice for now, it might be your choice tomorrow, and that's okay too. So you're setting this positive tone that we don't hear enough. And I think we're craving that. And your market in particular is craving that. They're feeling sold to, they're feeling pushed at. And that's the number one reason why I don't think that you want to start an advertising model anytime soon. That isn't something that you highly curate and believe in.

Indeed. I have got goosebumps listening to you there, Tracy.

So, yeah, that. Oh, good. I'm so glad. It's a show that is truly hitting a nerve and a topic, but it's hitting it at the right tone and that's why it's resonating and binging. And the binge sharing is the really part. When I say a show is bingeable, it means people are listening to it, but it doesn't always mean they're going to share it. So we have a lot of self help shows that people don't share. So you can imagine that if I'm a recovering addict and I've got a great show on it and I'm really serving people, but they're not sharing it because they're loathe to admit that they're not feeling positive about it. So you've hit a tone at which they can feel comfortable and positive sharing about it, because someone's not going to come into it and come back into it and then have backlash against them for having shared it.

Yes.

So that's what you created. You created a positive environment for no matter who they're sharing with the stage of life, the stage of singleness, whatever that might be, they're feeling good about being able to share that with their other singles in their lives and not feeling like they're going to get a backlash for having shared it.

Indeed. Yeah, that's well said. I also just think, to be honest, it's a lot of blue ocean. There's not many other options.

Right.

And sometimes that can be bad because it means there's not of interest out there. But you hit a blue ocean where there's deep waters and lots of interest and lots of people swimming around in there going, what am I looking for? Where am I going to find guidance? And you've tapped into that. But I think that there is a play for you in terms of monetization of that tight curation. So as you start to curate more and more guests that are more valuable, that are sitting in that thematic control that you have, you want to do the same thing in with your sponsorship and affiliate models, because that's really where what people are looking to you for. They wouldn't be there listening to you and sharing what you're doing if they didn't believe in that. So the minute you start losing that and it's done by like an ad server farm, you're in trouble.

Right, Right.

You've lost that personal connection to your audience that they come to value from you.

Yeah, I mean, it certainly is. The way I've kind of framed the podcast is. It's the podcast I Wish I had 25 years ago when I was start starting to doubt this. And it's certainly the one I wish I had 12 years ago when I knew that a family, marriage and kids weren't the path for me. And so the idea is this. I have experience and I have advice and I have perspective, and I want to share it in a way that's going to be helpful. And so I think what you're suggesting is, as I think about my offerings, it should have that same tone, which is, here's something that I believe can help you.

Yeah, I can stand behind this. I can believe in this enough. I've used it myself, or I see the benefit of it from what I'm hearing from you. And I chose this because of you. That's really everything that you've been talking about about your show right now, because it's so personal, because it came from a personal place, because it's tapped into something that's personal in your listener as well. That's why it's working. So you don't want to mess with that. When you come into the monetization, they want you to make money. They want you to stick around for them. They want you to keep doing this. They don't want you to quit at 100, right. So they want you to do that. So there is a reward value there that they are going to reward you for that. Patreon models don't always work, and I'm going to just be honest. It's very small percentage of them work, but some cases they do because it's the only way they can send you value back, because your core business or whatever it is just doesn't work. And they want to bring you value because they want to make sure you'll show up for them tomorrow. And so it's a small, tokenized way to be able to do that. Right?

Yeah. No, I mean, so I was saying, as I like to give advice, I like to take advice. So I really appreciate your. So if people were watching the video, I'm, like, scrolling down notes.

He's taking notes here.

But I think that the issue is this, and this is very real for me. And I've had some part of my kind of advisory group help me with this, which is I want to start a movement, right? This is not a business first, it's a business second. And so I'm willing to give this a lot of Runway before it becomes something that pays for itself. But I always do say people will pay for value. If you provide them true value, they will happily do it. In that sense, I'm not in a rush to monetize it, frankly. It's why I don't have a good answer to your question, because I don't.

Have it all working, which is okay. And I'm glad you're not in a rush, because I think that's really the case here. If you're building something deeper, full of power, full of movement in it, the patience is going to be what is rewarded. At the end of the day, the fact that you waited long enough to understand what was going to be right, what was going to be the right choices to make in that process. This is an unusual show. Everyone out there. What I do want to do is I want to have as great a close as Peter does. Before we end here, I want to ask Peter, what recommendations do you have out there for other podcasters out there who are thinking about starting a movement about doing something versus the personal versus the business show love for you to answer that. And then I want to close with the way that Peter closes, which is an actually beautiful close where they're having that final conversation all the way up into the end. He does a great job at closing. And I don't know, maybe that's the comedian study background of you or the behavioral scientist. I'm not sure what, but I want to make sure we cover that.

Wow. Okay. Well, I'm appreciative of that. So I have one very strong piece of advice, and that is I'm a big believer in the value and the power of writing. And so although podcasting is about speaking and about conversation, I spent a lot of time writing a one pager for this project. I actually write a one pager for every major project that I do. And the idea behind the one pager is that it starts off as an internal document, but eventually it becomes an external document. And so this is about what is the project, who is it for, what problem does it solve, how will it solve it, and so on. And it's a way to develop the title. The language so unapologetically unattached is a phrase that I use a lot. Marriage being overprescribed is a phrase that I use a lot. Solo is not anti marriage. Another phrase. There's a lot of these ideas and things that I talk about. I talk about remarkable singles. All of that language was developed in the one pager, which then turned into the copy. This idea of being single affords you opportunities, opportunity to make art, to build a business, to travel the world, to get fit, or simply sleep in when you want to. That was all in the one pager. The stag one pager became the solo one pager. And so I think anyone who is going to put in the time, the effort, the expense of starting a podcast, it's worth it to get the one pager nailed because it's going to provide a backbone and to provide the language that you're going to want to use to build it anyways. And so I feel very, very strongly about that. I have an entire chapter in my book, Stick to Business called Write it or Regret it that's built about the power of writing in personal and professional life.

I'm so glad you mentioned your book here, Stick. I love that title. Stick to business. But this is the thing, Peter, you're tapping into there. And that's why I'm so glad I was able to have you on the show to really talk about this. And it's the right stage for me to have you on the show. I could have invited Peter on at any time. It's not like I didn't know him and had access to him. But this is the right point in time for you to be here to talk about this. Because what you're also talking about is you're setting out your hypothesis for who you think that audience is, what message you want to deliver to them in that one sheet. And in that process, you are setting up the tone, the languaging. But it's not set in stone. It's a working document. You get to adjust it as you get feedback that it's going on. And you're testing your premise against effects of the show and the results of the show. And in this case, it worked for you.

And if someone emails me, I will share the one pager with them.

Okay, well, we'll make sure that Peter's email is in the connection, so you'll see it in the bio. We'll make sure that you have a right place to just connect directly with Peter in the show notes for this episode@thebingefactor.com and that way you can connect up with him and find out what he's up to. You can also find shtick to Business, a link directly to that in the show notes. And of course, if you're in your app, it'll be right there as well. So you'll be able to click through and find Peter everywhere.

Sarah, you are a pro.

Well, thank you, Peter. I am so excited about this solo being a success for you because I heard it early on when our team was working on it, and I thought, he's onto something. But my instincts and then how something works out, you never know. But it is working out for you, and I'm so glad that it is. And honestly, Peter, this is something that I want all of you listeners out there to gather that organic growth of Peter's show is a better indicator than if you dumped a lot of advertising money early in and forced it to work and just happened. Because you never know if it really was the messaging, the show structure, what's working. You can layer those things on as he's doing right now.

Yes. I like to call it product market, founder fit. And I feel like I love that Solo has that.

Well, we're tapped in this is why we're resonating Peter, because I talk about product market fit as being the number one thing, but I love that you added founder or host in this mix as well. Yeah. Host fit in this particular case. Well, Dr. Peter McGraw, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate you being here and sharing so honestly with our audience and with the successes that you've had and what you're struggling to work with right now.

Tracy, you, as I said, you are a pro. I really appreciate you and thank you for the support. Cheers.

I love how that show went. I love how Peter grilled me. Right. So at various times, he's like, well, what do you think? This is the kind of rapport I love to have with my clients. It's part of what I love so much about this podcast industry, as I love this collaborative discussion model about what's working and what's not working and that everything in it is an experiment. So I really hope that we're bringing you that again and again throughout this series. I hope that I'm bringing you that in terms of bringing you forth these interesting guests like Dr. Peter McGraw here as to how they've started and how they are right now at this point, and the fact that they're still on a trajectory of learning, of growth. They have plans of what they want to do next for their show. I'm not bringing you those that are saying, oh, I'm at the top of my game. I'm done with things. I'm not doing anything more. I want to be bringing you people who are in the trenches with it, like you, and then they may be struggling on this one area over here. Like, Peter is about his. Does he do sponsors? What's the monetization model, and what does that look like now that he sees the trajectory, growth in listenership, but he's got the listenership and the binge ability of his show all figured out over on the other side. So. And you may not be there. You may not have the solution yet. And you can get inspired by Peter's story and by the types of advice he's given out here and the tips that he points out for you as well. So I love that about this show. This is why I keep doing this, because I learn something new every single day, and I really hope that you're learning something as well. So you've got to check out solo, and you also need to check out. I'm not joking. And see the difference between the two. So don't forget to look those up and check them out. And as I mentioned in the episode, you can go to the blog post for this episode@thebingefactor.com and of course we'll connect you up. And don't forget to check out Peter's book. You got to love the idea of talking about shtick and comedy and business in the same sense. So absolutely, you got to check that out. It's a great book. Thank you all for listening and coming to the show and coming back week after week and sending me messages. So I really do appreciate your messages about the types of shows you're looking for. I've got some more on the horizon here. We've been putting a concerted effort into searching out for the right type of shows that interest you. So if you're not telling me what you're interested in and you're sitting back and you're listening here, but you're not saying to me, tracy, I want to hear more from wellness podcasters. I want to hear more from these types of people. Then I want to hear someone who is taking sponsors. You got to let me know what you're looking for and I will go out there and search for the right shows and the right host to bring you some tips, some tools, some lessons learned so that you either don't make the mistakes or jump straight to what's working. So good luck on your show out there as you're formulating it, and be sure to tune back in here for the Binge Factor as I bring you more great hosts and more great guests. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazzard.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.