Growing A Steady And Successful Real Estate Podcast with Marco Santarelli of Norada Real Estate Investments

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I'm very pleased that my next guest is able to be on with me today. I actually for better part of a week thought maybe this interview or this guest would not happen today as he's been traveling across the country, actually out of the country. I'm going to bring him on here as a panelist in just a moment. Marco Santarelli. And because I didn't think this was going to happen, I'm not as prepared to introduce Marco as I have some of our other guests today. So I will let Marco introduce a bit of himself. But Marco is in the real estate industry and has incredibly popular podcast called Passive Real Estate Investing. Does tremendously well. Very highly ranked on itunes. He's been doing it for about three years. Very popular show. So without further ado, I'm bringing Marco on. Hello, Marco.

Hey, Tom, how are you?

Great. All right, finally got you. Are you on laptop or iPad or phone? What are you on?

I'm on an iPhone.

Hey, I'll take it. It works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your video proportion is a little different than everyone else today, but that's all right.

Do you want me to flip the phone this way?

No, I don't. No, that didn't actually, that's not quite as good if you want to go back to where you were. There you go. That's a little more close up on you. Well, thank you so much. You're a well traveled man today. You're in Toronto area, is that right?

Yeah, I just landed 2 hours ago fighting traffic to get here. I'm at my. Actually one of my relatives. I'm not sure. I'm tired.

Yeah, well, I know you're tired. Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate whatever time you're willing to spend and we don't have to keep you terribly late. I mean, it's already late there in Toronto, but.

No, we're good.

But I really wanted to have you on because we've had all different kinds of podcasters today. Our special event for International Podcast Day and I think you're a great model podcaster in many ways, because after three years, you've got a show that is still very popular. You're doing, in general, one episode a week, and you have such a popular show that it's in the top ranks of itunes. And actually, I meant to go and check it. I'm going to do it now while we're talking and see where it's at. But last I checked, you were like number three in business investing category on itunes, which is phenomenal for one episode a week. I guess I'd love for you to share with the audience, really your purpose in your podcast for you as a business person, and then also how your podcast, how you see it serves you best because you've really stuck with it.

Yeah, and that's the key is the consistency. Because I read a stat when I started doing my podcast that most podcasters stop after seven episodes, and I didn't want that to be me. If I had to quit, I'd make it to eight.

But, yeah, I stuck to it. And I try to do a weekly episode, and for the most part I do, but every once in a while I skip one because I'm traveling or, you know, my schedule because, you see when I post them, it's like usually like half a week before it needs to go live. And it's just my crazy travel schedule. But yeah, I mean, I started it three and a half years ago, and the purpose of it at the time was put out good content to educate our clients, which are real estate investors. And because we operate on a nationwide basis, we don't meet face to face. So all of our clients are talking to us on the phone and they talk to us via email. And I noticed that a lot of the questions we got were frequently asked. So I just thought, well, let's just start covering all the foundational stuff on the first five or ten episodes. Like the difference between passive investing and active real estate investing and what is a turnkey investment and what all that kind of stuff. And that was the purpose of it. And I actually toyed with the idea of should I do YouTube or should I do a podcast? For a long time, I actually really struggled with this, and I talked to a lot of people about it, and I decided to podcast because I didn't have a lot of time back then either. And I figured, well, if I do YouTube, it's going to be more work than podcasting because I'm now dealing with video and audio. I think I made the right decision. But in hindsight, I Wish I started podcasting six years ago, seven years ago. Because it's not too late now, of course, but.

And I checked, you are number two right now. Today as we are recording this live, your podcast is the out of the top 200 in the business investing category on itunes. Yours the number two show right behind. What is her last name? Barbara. The woman from Corcoran. Barbara Corcoran, you are behind, behind a nationally known television personality who has a podcast in the category. You are way ahead of all sorts of organizations. I mean, seriously, big, well known organization. Tim Ferriss show is number nine and you're number two.

Yeah, Tim Ferriss is usually up there. Gary Vaynerchuk, Dave Ramsey.

Yep, Dave Ramsey's right behind you at number three. So this is impressive and that's part of why I'm pleased you could find a little time to spend with us today. Because I think it's important for people to understand you don't have to be a big celebrity or have a podcast that's produced by one of the big media outlets in this really crowded category to be top ranked. I think it's about providing great content which you're doing. Like you said, all the what you might think of as the 101 series or the frequently asked questions. I mean, that was the lead into it. And I know you've gone far beyond that in your show after three and a half years, but I think the great content is drawing in a big audience in a high area of interest for investors and individuals across the country.

Yeah, content is critically important. There was a time when I was always asking for ratings and reviews. I actually haven't done that for a long time. But I think that helps play into driving the popularity of the show because at last count, at least on the US records like US iTunes list, because every country has its own ratings and reviews. I think we're close to 800 five star reviews.

You are. I actually look at this stuff periodically. You have 757 on US iTunes ratings and reviews. 712 of them are five star, 22 or four star. And there's a small insignificant handful that are less than that. That's amazing. You can ask for ratings all day long. You're not going to get ratings like, like that in those numbers if you don't have a show that people like and find a value.

Yeah. And I'm still to this day not comfortable doing a podcast. I mean, I'd be a lot worse doing video. I have a face for podcasting. Right.

I wouldn't say that, But I think that's important for people to understand. You're not comfortable doing it. Okay. That's a real honest moment. And I think would be. I don't know if reassuring is the right word or. I think that it would help new podcasters to understand. You don't have to be comfortable.

It helps, but you don't. No, you can do it without being comfortable. And after three plus years, I'm still not comfortable because I overthink the questions I need to ask when I have a guest, I overthink what I'm saying, and that causes me to stutter. Sometimes I think I strive too hard to make the show perfect right from the get go, meaning every recording, every episode has to be perfect. I mean, I'm just a bit of a perfectionist, but I think most people need to understand that it doesn't need to be perfect. It's probably better if it isn't perfect, because a lot of people like podcasts because of the humility, the honesty, the authenticity. Maybe the authenticity that. Thank you. Yeah, the authenticity of it. So I'm glad I'm not perfect with it, but.

But I do think, though, like you said, the authenticity, it's. Something is resonating. I mean, your voice, quite honestly, I know you say you're not comfortable with it or nervous about it. You have a excellent voice for podcasting. In fact, if you remember, I don't know if it was a year or two ago, I forget how long it's been, but your voice seemed ideal for another podcaster who started a podcast. And I asked you to do a voiceover.

Oh, yeah. Forgot about that.

Yeah, let me.

I thought that was a joke.

No, but it worked very well now. I mean, it's rare that I do that to you because I know that's not really your gig and you don't have time probably to do that very much, but it was just what you're asking for. I thought Marco's voice is really ideal for what they're talking about. So. So that works.

Well, yours is great. Yours is great, too. I mean, I don't know what it is. It's probably. It's not my voice, it's the microphone.

Oh, come on. No, no, you got a good mic and that's great, but no, your voice is very good. And I'm sure, I know people are comforted by it and you speak with authority on your subject. I mean, you know your business reasonably well. Well, something's working for you out there, and I just think it's important for people to know that your show, it's not like what you've achieved was. Or not achieved is the wrong word. What you set out to do was such a far fetched idea. It really saw a need in the market. You got all these questions and you're trying to help serve that community in a way that was more efficient for you. Maybe where you didn't have to necessarily take all those phone calls, where you have a resource, people start asking you questions, say, you know what, you might want to go listen to the podcast, but that may have been how it started out. But there's a big community across this country that is benefiting tremendously from the wisdom that you're sharing and the guests that you're bringing on and connecting them to. Clearly it's working. I mean, number two on iTunes, amazing. And no paid marketing. I want to make sure that's clear, isn't that right? You don't pay anybody to boost the show or to market it or put it out there directly as the in terms of the podcast, is that right?

No, I thought you meant sponsors. I do have sponsors though, and I started taking sponsors on two months ago. I think it was two months, sure.

No, I know you have sponsors and you've actually always put in your own promotions and ads for some of your own one company and service or however you want to describe it. But no, what I meant is there are companies that are pitching services that if you pay them a sum of money, they guarantee they'll get you at the top of the charts on itunes. And I just wanted to be transparent for the listening audience to understand that's never something you've done. You've gotten there organically through your content that you're producing.

Right. And I don't think those services work. I've never tried a service like that. In fact, I've never seen a service like that. You told me about it.

Yeah, no, in fact, I had another client who was actually coming on at 8pm he's my last guest of the day in 45 minutes. Scott Carson, who's actually in a related field. He's in distress. Real estate note investing.

I know who Scott is. In fact, I was just reading an email from him today.

Yeah, Scott is another. He's become a really good friend and he's, you know what business he's in, but in a different facet of real estate, investing in properties that are distressed notes or, or you might call bad debt or mortgages that are in trouble, does a very good job with that. And he forwarded me an email from this company, and they had actually reached out to me and solicited me for this service. And I took a phone call just because I wanted to do a little research on it. I wanted to know about it. So they actually are pitching very expensive program from just a couple thousand dollars a month, all the way up to 10 or even $15,000 a month, depending on where you want to get into the rankings in your category. They'll say the lower levels guarantee you in the top 100, the next levels in the top 50, and it goes top 25, top 10, whatever they claim. And I've never talked to anybody who's used them, but they're actually in business selling this service that if you want to get to the tops of itunes charts, they can get you there. And it's a paid marketing program. I think it has a lot to do with pr, among other things. But does it work? I don't know. I've never talked to anybody who's used it. I mean, they're in business. Presumably somebody's paying them to try to do this, but I never got any case studies out of them. But here's the thing. We deal with enough podcasters that are at. I mean, there's several people that we know firsthand who are at the top of their ranks in their category on itunes, and none of them are using any paid program. It's just organically the content they're creating, not only for their podcast. I think the blog posts are helping to generate awareness and organic traffic for people to learn about your show. But ultimately, if you produce good quality show, good quality content, you don't need to do that. And that's what I've seen, and I think you're a great example of that. And that's. I'm thrilled that you could be here and mention, provide some of your testimony that what I've been saying to people is actually true in that regard.

Right. Yeah. It's great. I'm glad to be on here and talking to you about it.

Thank you. So you're feeling good about the podcast. You're planning to stick with it. It's serving your business. And I know you say sometimes you struggle to record things with all your travel schedule, but it's working for you. Right. So you're planning to continue with it?

Yeah, it is more work than I thought it was going to be. I say often that I've created another job for myself, and essentially I have, because it is a lot of work, because I do spend A lot of time on it and in prep and with the interview and sometimes even post production. But it's worth the time. It has become actually maybe not our primary marketing tool, but a strong marketing tool at this point because it does generate leads and business. And I don't pitch it as not an infomercial. It's not there to generate business, but because people really like the show and they learn a lot from it and they understand what we do and how we do it and that it fits their investment goals. Then they reach out and ask questions, and they're smart questions, like they're intelligent questions. They're not level first level, low level questions. They're actually more advanced because they've already gotten the foundation. They understand the basics and the concept and benefits and all that stuff. So now they're asking more specific questions catered to them. And it just saves my team or investment counselors a lot of time because they come in as semi sophisticated or at least educated real estate investors.

That's fantastic. I do think real estate investing, to be fair, is very large market of people in the United States. I mean, and as an area of interest, and everybody's maybe too absolute, I'd say most of the people that I know who have made a lot of money investing have made in real estate investing in one way or another. I mean, I think a lot of the way that our country's tax laws are structured and the way things are built, real estate investing is there are advantages for investing in real estate that there are not in investing in other things where you might put your money to make more. So I think it's a very popular category and that probably has a little something to do with the popularity of your show, but it's certainly also a crowded niche on itunes as well. So it's not like you're like the one podcast in a big market with very little competition either. So again, think it speaks to something that you are providing and the authority that you have built around yourself is resonating.

Yeah, there's a lot of real estate podcasts out there today. There were a good number of them three years ago, but there's a lot today. And I even I bump into people every once in a while saying, yeah, I'm thinking about doing a podcast, or I'm in the process of recording episodes for the launch of a podcast in the real estate space. And there's always room, but even though it's getting crowded. But if you look at financial planners, people are talking about stocks or stock trading or Insurance or anything like that. There's tons of those, too, so there's a lot of room. And if you put out good content, people are gonna maybe check out a bunch of shows, subscribe to a bunch of shows, listen to them for a while, maybe a few weeks or a few months, and then ultimately they're gonna stop listening to the ones that they don't get a lot of value from. So as long as you put out good content and put out good value, people will continue to subscribe to yours, and then you come out at the top.

Do you mind sharing with everyone? Because I wouldn't want to do it on your behalf without asking. Your average episode gets how many downloads per episode? Do you mind sharing that?

I don't know if I know the.

Answer, and I think I know pretty close.

I mean, we can share that information. I just don't trust and believe the numbers. I see. I'm not. You could probably explain the technicals here, but, you know, I'm currently with Libsyn and I'm in the process of migrating to a more expensive kind of premium platform. Yeah, right. But it's syndicated in so many places. I just honestly don't know if, when you're syndicated through Stitcher and iheartradio and all these other places, if those actually clock stats with Libsyn, they are supposed to.

Yes. And I personally, from my experience, believe that they do. Now, I do agree with you. There have been a lot of changes, especially at Libsyn, in the last year with their podcast download statistics tracking system. And there's been a lot written about that, which I'm not going to rehash now. But according to the stats your typical show is getting within two months is. And most of it is with very quickly after it publishes, you're getting anywhere between 10 to 15,000 downloads an episode, which is for a weekly show. I mean, that's a tremendous number. It's very good. And makes sense that you're starting to monetize now with sponsors because you have a very focused audience in terms of their interest areas. And the response to advertising is probably in terms of conversion is much higher than other places they might advertise, like local radio or anything else where it's not as focused a listening audience. So all that makes sense. And I think that's. Thanks for letting me share that because I think that's also helpful to people to understand what you can achieve.

Yeah, definitely. I don't know what the milestones are, but I think I read somewhere that 3,000 5,000 and 10,000 are like major milestones.

I would agree with that. I think they are. And it's interesting because I also heard recently being able to look at your podcast and how it performs has helped also sort of dispel some myths. I heard very recently people were at a conference in San Diego and were told by representatives of a certain company that in order to get ranked on itunes, like you are high in that category, you have to be getting a very large amount of new subscribers on a regular basis. And I actually don't believe that. I think if you. Your example, at least the download numbers, as long as we accept those for the moment, if you were getting that many new subscribers every month, according to what they said the formula needs to be to be listed as high as you are on itunes, your downloads would be consistently going up and up and up. Right. Right. Episode after episode. So that's not. Logically, you're pretty steady right now. You have all. I think the ratings and reviews play into that rankings significantly. And steady, consistent downloads per episode, I think also do. I don't think. I just personally, from experience, don't believe it has anything to do with you're getting perpetually more and more subscribers. I mean, I'm sure you lose some and you gain some enough that your downloads stay consistent. Sure, that's going to happen. But I don't buy it when they say it's all about subscribers.

Yeah, well, nobody knows the algorithm unless you know, you work for Apple.

Right.

So I'm sure ratings play into it, reviews play into it, new subscribers play into it. Maybe the velocity of downloads plays into it. Who in the heck knows? I mean, and for all we know, there could be some manual curation involved with who places where.

I think we have to admit there could be. Because you're right, we're not at Apple. We don't know.

No, we don't.

But I have learned recently that Apple has reduced its dedicated staff of employees that are dedicated to itunes down to 5 from what used to be an awful lot more people. And really, wow, those five people probably couldn't keep up with manually manipulating those things all the time. I think that's why the new and noteworthy we haven't seen change much at all because no one's focused on it.

I think I brought that to your attention, did I not?

Well, you did, but you're not the only one. I have other podcasters we work with, one who's been in the new and noteworthy in the business section for two years straight. She has no idea why she's not even publishing any new episodes on her show. So that I think is random and was curated and maybe just isn't getting their attention anymore.

Yeah, well, I happen to know two of the people, two of the guys that are on that list, highly ranked on that list. One happens to be a good friend of mine. He flat out admits he said, look, I just got lucky. You got stuck there. And I've been there for almost a year. And he certainly gets traffic from it.

Yep, I agree. Yeah. But the person I know who's on that list is literally getting like 3,000 downloads a month. And you're neither new nor new. Probably like. No, no, no. For two years for. But no, I mean, new downloads. Yeah, like two or three thousand a month downloads of the show on a consistent basis. So it's not the velocity of many shows. I think that's why I think that New and Noteworthy at one time, I think there was a formula to it. I don't think there is any.

So you're, you're also saying that there's not a lot of value in it, correct?

Well, I think the people who are there, I think are getting value. I think they are getting down from it. But it's not like being there is the magic bullet. No, not at all. Not at all.

Okay. Interesting. I didn't know that.

All I can share is, I guess what I would call informed anecdotal evidence. I mean, it's. I don't, I haven't done scientific studies or data. I just have experience to share from people we work with like you. And I think it's always helpful for others to hear that because people get told all the time, oh, the first eight weeks you need to do achieve a certain amount if you're going to end up on New and Noteworthy. That does not happen anymore. Three, four years ago it did. I know it did because it changed dramatically. There used to be 1500-2000 podcasts listed in the entire list of New and Noteworthy on itunes. And we saw ourselves move when we started going up that list over that eight week period of time. But now New and Noteworthy is showing about 23 or 26 something podcasts. It's very, very little. And it doesn't ever, it hardly ever changes.

Yeah, if I was traveling all day and so I wasn't tuned in, there wasn't even wi fi on the plane I was on. Otherwise I would, I would. I know, I couldn't believe it. It was like big jetliner and there was no WI fi. I was Pretty bummed. But otherwise I would have been tuned in and listening to you all day. My question is, have you learned anything new from all your interviews today in terms of what helps to drive new subscribers to a show? Has there been like any aha moments?

Not in subscribers specifically, I'd have to say no, there hasn't been any new aha moments. I think the reality is nobody really knows how many subscribers they have because that information is not shared with any of podcasters. Right, right. Itunes will never share it with you. I'll tell you there have been some aha moments throughout the day for other nuggets of information that I think have been very helpful. One of them that I learned recently and I did share today, and I'm happy to share again briefly is that I think the future of podcast listenership is going to migrate more away from itunes and more toward Google and Google podcasts app Android platform only now I'm sure eventually they'll make it available iOS too, but that's not their priority right now. I think that and what I've learned about the number of employees dedicated to itunes at Apple and they don't make any money on that platform. I think, don't get me wrong, itunes is still the primary distribution network, but I do see that shifting over the coming couple years and I actually there's a lot of speculation. But you wonder, well, if Apple isn't putting the resources behind it and they're not making any money on it, I mean, how long are they going to continue to support it? Because it does take them resources to support it when you submit a feed and there's a problem with it.

Right, right.

They have to have staff responding to that and how long are they going to continue to do it? So there's that. But I also am excited about new distribution opportunities for podcasts in particular, something new that has come to our attention recently and we're working on a system for doing this properly. But you can now get people to opt in to be connected. Like if you want it on your website, instead of just saying people, go subscribe on itunes or subscribe on Stitcher, you could say subscribe through Facebook Messenger. You can be delivered the podcast, we can send it directly to them and they can play an entire podcast through Facebook Messenger. The advantage for you as a podcast host is if they subscribe, that way you know who they are, they're actually your subscriber.

Oh, that's pretty cool.

All their information. So I think that's some of the future what's been happening with the chatbots and Facebook messenger in general. Facebook has opened it up to this ability to deliver content through there, and. And because you know who they are, that's much more valuable information for you as a podcaster. So I'm excited about that.

Yeah, that's interesting. So, well, got to keep an eye. Keep an eye out for it.

But, Marco, I thank you for wanting to listen on the plane. I'm pleased to hear that. We will let you know all of these and every listener, everybody who subscribed to this and even on our people watching on Facebook these episodes that we've recorded today. We are going to put them out as a podcast series, as a video series, and as also blog posts. So all that information will be available to you to check out at your leisure. So we'll make sure you have that as well.

All right, awesome.

Well, Mark, I know it's getting late for you back out there in Toronto. Thank you so much for joining us. I do really appreciate it. And when you told me you didn't think you'd be able to do it, I was like, oh, so disappointing. I wanted to have Marco. So when you texted me this morning, I'm like, yes, we're going to make it work.

Yep, for sure. I didn't want to miss out. I wanted to do this. It's just I. And actually, it's good that we moved the time because even though our flight came in early customs, it took an hour to get through the customs and immigration and then almost another 45 minutes to get our bag. So this was perfect.

Yes. I knew it was going to take longer than you first said it would, so I had some flexibility at this hour, and I sort of held that in my back pocket hoping you'd come in. So thank you. I know our guests appreciate it. I sure do. And I hope you have a great business trip. Look forward to talking with you at some point in the not too distant future.

You too. Thank you, Tom. I appreciate it.

Okay, take care.

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