How Can Podcast Network Branding Transform Your Show? Discovering The Hidden Benefits And Drawbacks

Want your podcast and videocast to be seen, heard, found and rewarded in this noisy digital world, you are not alone. Join the nonprofit community at Podcasters United and podcast industry experts Tom Hazard and Tracy Hazard as they debunk all that outdated and bad advice you've been getting from the podcast gurus and find out what actually works Today. Get ready to finish feed your brand with smart cut tactics proven to cast your original voice to the world.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Feed you'd brand. I'm Tom Hazard with my co host and better half, Tracy Hazard, and we are going to talk about actually address the issue of how can podcast network branding transform your show, discovering hidden benefits and drawbacks. I think there's more hidden drawbacks than there are benefits, but I'm curious what you think.

Oh, you're just going to preview that and just like throw that out there?

I'm just saying my personal feeling on it.

Well, we did do a show already quite some time ago, maybe two years ago, but we certainly have already have a podcast about whether or not you should join a network. Right. So we're going to touch on that a little bit today just because we were kind of tie it back together. But should you join a network is really the very first question you should be asking yourself. And then secondly, is that network branding adding value? And that's really what we're going to be talking about mostly today. So, Tom, tell me, you typically see, I'm going to call it radio networks more often, but you do see networks that have a sort of pervasive branding that they put across shows. Tell us a little bit about what that looks like.

Yeah, the thing that I see the most with certain networks, I would say a lot of networks, not all, but a lot, is that the network wants to put their umbrella brand on top of your show. Or maybe a better way to say it, to bring your show brand under their umbrella of their brand, both in the logo of your show, the COVID art, also in the show listing, where the author field I see often is the network name instead of your name, the host. And that's not a best practice or necessarily in your best interest as the host and the owner of the podcast because it kind of hurts discoverability of people that know you and say, hey, I think Tom Hazard has a podcast. Let me search on his name in my podcast app. And when your name's not in the author field, that has a negative impact on discoverability in your show coming up.

That's just one example, but it could be a benefit. And this is what I want you to consider. If you're a nobody, if no one's going to ever be searching on your name yet because you haven't found your niche or your audience, or you just haven't built your name yet within the industry, then using a network where somebody will search for it will be beneficial because then you will show up amongst their shows. So that's where we really need to consider is like, what stage are you at and is this a drawback or a benefit? And is that network going to bring you a good association? Here's the problem that I see too often and we touched on this really probably predominantly within the should you be a part of a network episode that we did, which is this issue of the networks that are a shotgun approach all over the place in terms of their lack of focus in a particular industry or niche. So let's say Barstool Sports is a great network in the sports industry and they have tons of different shows on different types of sports, different types of topics. They have tons of shows and the Barstool Sports name brings sports fans. So if you're a startup in that, if you don't have a name for yourself in the sports industry yet and you get an opportunity to join one of the Barstool sports brands, that's going to be a great benefit to you to be able to utilize their name, to get your name out there. So now we're raising our authority by association, but they're all focused in the sports niche, so all the listeners they bring are sports. Now, there might be some that don't care about hockey and that's what your show is about. But at the same time, the largest area of sports fans in general are coming to Barstool sports shows. So that makes sense. We've seen that happen with sometimes meditation wellness podcast networks, when they're focused on one thing that can lend you a lot of authority and value. When they're just general and they have, oh, it's all entrepreneur's network, it's too general and where you fall through the cracks. Because what they're doing is they're looking for their Joe Rogan, right? They're looking for their top star to carry the network and make them a ton of money. And when you're not the that person, they don't care about you anymore. You're just paying their bills, you're just their subscription or whatever model they're charging you on. And most of them do charge you. Very few of them pay you. You have to have proven that you already have a great show and you're going to bring them ad value before they pay you.

Can I say to me, that's the first big red flag. If a network is courting you and they're wanting to have your show on their network, what's the value for you? You need to really look with a critical eye as to what value are you going to get from this relationship. What value are they going to get? And if they're having you pay to be a part of their network and you are a profit center for them, then clearly I think they're not getting a whole lot of value from you being on the network in terms of monetization. They're trying to monetize through you. If they have a network that is monetized, has lots of sponsors that are interested in, like you say, that sports genre, Tracy, that you were using as an example, the more shows they have, the more money they're going to make because they can sell more ad spots with more shows, more episodes, more listens. Why do they need to charge you anything to be on that? So if they're going to charge you, I often find that you're helping them by being on the network more than they're gonna help you and bring you a lot of listeners. Now, there may be exceptions, but.

Right. The one thing that I do wanna say here is that charging beyond hosting. Okay, let's be really clear here. I have no problem. And I really actually say you should pay for your own hosting. Because if you pay for your own hosting, you are in control of your show. When you don't pay for your own hosting, you are not in control of your feed. You are not in control of that show. Somebody else's email address will be entered in there because they're paying the bill for the hosting of your show. So be very careful about that. That is not what I'm talking about. You paying, Tom and I, we're talking about you paying $501,000 a month to be a part of a network or something like that, or a radio show or something like that, where you're paying them for production or you're paying them to be a part of the network. This is the model of pay to be on a stage. Right. It's no different here. A lot of these networks are those same things. And how many events have you gone to in the last six months and not seen an audience show up? I mean, we were at an event in LA recently and I'm not going to out them, but it was the worst trafficked event I've seen since the pandemic started. It was worse than any event I've ever been to. And this should have had thousands of people walking through that for the fees that they charged for the booths and.

The speaking spots, especially for a big metropolitan city location the event was in. And I don't think it outs the event to say it was in Los Angeles. I mean, you're talking to one of the most populous cities in the nation, a huge community of people in that city. And it's also an easy destination for people flying in from other places. And it was sad how low the attendance was. I have not heard of a large event, Tracy. I mean, I'm talking one that should have at least a thousand people and maybe many thousands. Who has really achieved those kind of numbers post pandemic? And we're seeing a couple hundred, 300. I mean low, low, low numbers.

Right. So if you're paying in and they're not delivering audience in the network situation that we're talking about here, what's your recourse? Can you get out of the contract? Is it going to scale down and will you pay less when you don't have that kind of listener base or that kind of ad revenue that they promised you? And that's another one. There's a lot that over claim their download numbers and they sell you on that. And they say if you pay a thousand dollars a month, we get X million downloads per month. And what percentage of regular shows get that? Is that all on one show? And like they're using the numbers for one show garners and it's not cascading down to everyone. It's kind of like this idea that 98% of. And this is what will happen. 98% of the revenue are going to go to 2% of the shows. That's what's going to happen in any network. How do you get to be part of that 2% is the big question. And if you were a part of the 2%, they should be paying you, not the other way around. Right. Because you obviously had a great show to begin with or you wouldn't be bringing them that kind of listener base. So this is really where that should you be a part of the network is a question. But also the questionable business practices of how they're branding that network makes is some of those red flags that Tom and I were talking about, whether or not there are more benefits or drawbacks to it. And so again, the number one thing I see is if there is A benefit to you to being associated with a network because of its focus and you require that authority build to get yourself known in an industry or in a niche, then you might consider doing it. There could be greater benefits than there are drawbacks. That being said, double check the contracts for lots of these kind of issues that we were talking about, how you off ramp, how you get out of it. The second thing that Tom pointed out though, that I really want to highlight here is the name that author name and field. If only Barstool Sports is the only name there and your name isn't there also, you could have both of them. You can have two authors, so you can have a person's name and a company name. You can do that. And I highly recommend that instead of putting your company name as your author field, do not do that because it hurts you, but instead put your name and the brand, your name and the company, your name and the network. Require that as a part of your contract. Because now you are getting a co authority built. Now it is working for you. So someone's looking for Barstool Sports, they're gonna find your show. If someone's looking for you, they're gonna find Barstool Sports. It's mutually beneficial. So that was one. It's a key factor. If they don't do that, I worry about whether or not there's more for them in it than for me.

Another thing that I would just like to share is just a friendly tip or suggestion to anyone considering adding their podcast to an existing network. That network will make a lot of claims of how many listeners they have, how many podcast downloads their network gets.

How many podcasts they have in general.

Right. And my strong recommendation on this one is ask the questions. Ask how many shows are on your network, what are they? If they're not willing to be transparent about that, that's a red flag.

If they're not, how many are active?

Yeah. How many are actively publishing new episodes every single week?

Ask that question.

And what are the total downloads for the network and what's the range? You could ask for the average, but I think it's a little better to ask what's the range? What the show that gets the least plays or downloads on the network gets, how many per month and then the one that gets the most. If a network is one of integrity and they have real value to you as a podcaster, they're going to share it and they're going to answer those questions. If they're cagey about it and bossing it over Doing anything other than answering the question directly or giving you a good reason why they can't give you an answer, then I would be skeptical.

Also, too often they open overstate the timeline or the number. So they might say we have 5 million downloads and they make the implication that that's a monthly number and that's the lifetime number for the last decade. So really looking big difference. And also, I mean, there are comparison numbers out there. You can go out there and you can see there's all kinds of reports on barstool sports that I mentioned. Because when they got bought, what were they doing in terms of numbers and dollars and all kinds of things and information about that. There's information on iHeart. IHeart's listed as to how many shows they have. They're one of the largest networks. You wanna look at that? But they claim to have about 350 shows, but the reality is less than 50 of them are actively posting. Most of them barely made it past one season. And so that's not a great his ratio either in terms of the network. So that's also something to consider because when they're taking those numbers and you're taking a look at them, you're really dividing by 50 shows because they're the active shows, right. And so really be thinking about, are these numbers, do they actually make sense and are they jiving with what's happening in the industry as a whole? So really be thinking about this. But we're talking about network branding and how it can transform your show. Can it really help? Now, here's the other problem that I have is, and Tom mentioned this, your logo, your cover art, we call it here in the industry, the icon for the show that appears in all the search apps. Too many networks make a programmatic decision, meaning that their brand is all over this and the styling is basically like your picture and the name of your show. And that's it. When listeners see that, they know it's programmatic. They've seen it before. You don't have any differentiation. You don't have any solo value anymore. It's just at that point, they look at it and go, do I like this network? Do they put out good shows? And does this show name resonate with me? Like, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. That's not playing at the field you want to play at. That's not attracting listeners. It's detracting. Right. They're less likely to click it because of the network branding going on here. That harms the listener base for your show, it harms the overall long term value for your show. We see that most often with radio shows. We don't see it at iHeart. They don't do it. The iHeart logo is really small on the bottom. And NPR doesn't even do it. They've got a really small logo on the bottom. New York Times channel, like network, they have it, it's small, it's not overpowering. But being associated with the Wall Street Journal channel or network or the New York Times network, those are valuable. Right? So you do want that ingredient, branding on your cover art, but you don't want it to take over the meaning of the show. And so really good networks know this. That's why their logos in the bottom corner, it's small networks who are trying so hard to make themselves as the players, who are really, I mean, it's a sign of them struggling if they're working so hard and over branding everything. To me, it's a sign that that network's actually, they're having to say they're more valuable than they are in reality.

The Internet radio platforms, which are a network, a form of network, really existed largely before podcasting or before, I would say, the last 10 years of modern podcasting. And they often are pitching themselves to people that say, well, I'm thinking of starting a podcast. Oh, you should start a radio show. Do a radio show. And it's also a podcast. And they make it seem like you get all the benefits of podcasting, being a part of their Internet radio network. And all too often this is just a little friendly advice from longhard Experience is very often those networks are doing a very bad job of syndicating your show as a podcast. Yeah, they do it because that's what they said they're gonna do. But they don't try very hard. They don't do a good job of it. But they feel that they have the need to check that box of yes, it's a podcast. If somebody asks them, and especially if you started your show with them, they don't do a good job with the branding of the show. They don't do a good job of the description of the show, which is really critical.

Among other things, they always put their name in the author field. They don't put yours like all of that. They control your hosting. You don't. So when you leave them, this is the problem. When you leave them, you, you will fight with them to get your show back, even if it's in your contract. They will be like, we don't know how to get it off of there. We don't know how to do it. We don't know how to separate it. They make it impossible for you to get your show back, and they make you jump through a lot of hoops when you do. We actually have a whole podcast episode on radio shows versus podcasts. It's a whole podcast. We'll link to this episode in the show notes on our website, poditize.com in the feed your brand section. So you'll be able to actually listen to that whole entire show about the complications of radio shows and what happens there. Last thing that I really want to mention in terms of benefits and drawbacks is the website issue. And that's what radio shows do. They're all focused on their website and where they house and have the home for their radio show and where they drive all their traffic, because that's where they make ad revenue. Most online radio makes ad revenue off of banner ads, ads on their website, not audio ads on their show. They make more money off the website itself, so they want to drive traffic there. It's part of their value, which means that they're taking your authority value from your website. They will not allow you to have blogs, say some of them don't even allow you to have your podcast on your own homepage of your website. You can only link out to them. So that's really where that is a huge drawback if you're not allowed to maintain that, the integrity of your content and keep it with your brand, with your company. So be very careful in any contractual issues with networks on that. And there are many networks who do not allow you to have your podcast contained on your own website. So just keep that in mind. That is it to me. At the end of the day, you've lost authority value. That is too great. Unless they're paying you like Brene Brown. A couple million dollars would be worth it. $140 million for Joe Rogan. Totally worth it. You can have my brand, right? If you're making a hundred bucks a month, at the end of the day, is that worth you losing all the residual value? No, because that's sales, that's connection to clients, it's your future value, and that you're working really hard to speak your way to right? On each episode that you create, you've lost all that value and they didn't pay you for that. So those are just the big issues that I have with network branding and network model. Really, really listen to it. The last thing that I want to bring up here is that most of these networks talk a good game, but when you investigate, when you ask someone who's been on the network, you even make some phone calls. It's not like they don't tout who's one of their shows. Usually they're all over their website. Call those podcasters, reach out to them. Their email address is right in their feed. Right. Like it's right in their show link. Click through to them. Go to their website, ask them. Check out how their show looks on the Apple app or on Spotify. Spotify. Ask them the questions. Go do some checking. Don't emotionally react to the sales pitch they give you about how great their network is. Check the references and don't check the ones they give you. Check the ones you see on the website that are similar to you.

There just has to be a balance between the value for you, the podcaster, the value for the network, and the value for, for listeners. As long as there's a balance between all three of those, that's acceptable to you. I'm not saying it has to be equal arrangements. You're the owner of your podcast. You can agree to anything you want to. If it's worth it to you, that's fine. I'm not saying it has to be 33, 33, 33% of value everywhere. That's probably unrealistic in some ways, but you really do need to just make sure that you understand what you're getting into.

Yeah, you could easily get lost in the network and we want to really make sure you know what your recourse is. You know what happens now. We have networks on potitize that we already have networks on there and what we really like. The reason that they came to work with us was the idea that they could create independence for their podcasters to be able to see their show statistics, be able to own their show, be able to stay hosting and they have control as a network to be able to do ad models and mix and match ads and everything like that. That's why they chose to come with us, because we built our model so that the podcaster can't lose out in the process when the network works on our system. Lots of systems don't work that way. Lots of other hosting companies don't work that way. We chose to work that way because we know that then we'll get the right networks, the networks that make it a win win for you and for them and for their advertisers. At the end of the day, we wanted to build that model and that's why we chose it, and that's why we have such deep insights to when it doesn't work. Because when it doesn't work, that's the first thing. When they see our model, they go, oh, no, no, no, we need to be in control. We don't want them to see our statistics.

That's the biggest red flag. When a network doesn't want the podcast owner or host to have visibility to the specific plays of their podcast, it means they're usually trying to make them believe their show's getting more plays, more reach than it really is.

Right. They're sharing aggregate, not specific. So this has happened in two different ways. One where a show then got spun off on its own and they were shocked at their numbers and very upset. And then the network lied to them and told them that, oh well, your statistics got lost in the process, which we know not to be true, and the historical numbers don't match that. Right. And then the second time that happens is with producers. So not only do we see that with networks, but we also see that with producers who promise you download numbers, promise you they're going to get you certain types of promotion levels. And when they don't achieve it, they typically, when you complain and you decide you want to go out on your own, they spin your show off, put it in a brand new feed and say all your statistics were lost when.

We set it 0 your reset.

And what they did was they harmed you. They actually removed all your listeners by giving you a new feed, everything. They harmed you in that process. And that is just not ethical. And Tom's, in my mind, it's not something. And if we see that happen with a producer or a network on our platform, we would fire them off of it.

So, I mean, obviously listeners, you're not hearing a lot of really good, rosy success stories about networks from us. And I have to say I'm sure there are lots of good networks out there that are providing value to the listener, value to the podcaster, and value to themselves. And it's an equitable situation. It's just that we've picked up the pieces of a lot of bad network relationships for podcasters and helped them recover their shows, their audience, their authority. We've seen a lot of problems.

So look, this is a huge challenge if you're out there thinking about starting a network. Like one episode I was referring to about networks and about ways to be successful as a network was really what our podcast episode was focused on. Go listen to that. Because this is a Cold start problem. This is a problem of I want to start a network. I need the shows to get the listeners and I need the listeners to get the shows right. Chicken and egg. Cold start problem. Right. So what stage are they at is really the big question you have. And maybe you want to be along for the ride. Maybe you want to be in early on and you want to be a part of it. But know that you're coming in at that stage stage and you hold all the cards and you can negotiate a better exit. A timeline. Branding opportunities. Change the course of how that network works and make it more mutually beneficial.

Sounds great, Tracy. Sounds like a good place to drop the mic on this one. Do you agree?

Absolutely. So benefits, look for yours. Make sure you know what they are. And we'll be back next time with another episode on these kind of deep dive topics into whether or not there are parts of the podcast industry. There are tactics that work and tactics that don't. That's our core here. And if you're interested in talking about something, make sure you reach out to us. We're everywhere on social media, Odditize and edyourbranch. You can look in both places. And Tom and I are kind of everywhere. Like, it's really hard to miss us, right? Hazard with two Z's, it's really hard to miss.

All right, thanks for listening, everybody. Well, see you next time on feed.

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