How Evelien Kong's Transition From TV Producer To Reppin's Podcast Host Highlights The Growing Preference For Podcasts Over Traditional Media

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors, and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the Binge Factor.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I have Evelyn Kong today and her show Reppin. Like Rep Repin, it's so well produced and it's no surprise she's a TV producer. But so often when I get media people who come to me and get pushed through, it's not that their shows aren't well produced, it's just that they don't get podcasting at the end of the day. And what I can hear clearly from her show is that Evelyn gets it deeply. And I'm so excited to have her on the show to really talk about what's the difference in this model and why so many don't that sort of disconnect and that understanding that podcasting is a different media type than radio, than tv, than movies. Right. It's just different. And so she's got her challenges and she's going to talk about them today. But I love that I can bring you this perspective today because it's been something that's intrigued me. And you know how I get. I get really excited when I can interview someone who's helping me learn some more and getting me insights into a different part of the industry. And that's what Evelyn's doing today. So Evelyn created Repn to share the raw, unfiltered conversations she has with your favorite stars, with a mission to present representation in a way that goes beyond race, gender, and orientation. I have just been fascinated by the show. There's something so interesting about the way she interviews. There's something so wonderful about the way she pulls out conversations and the way things flow in the show. So you're definitely going to want to.

Listen to the show.

Plus, I'm going to point out as we do this interview, some areas that you're definitely going to want to check out that are very cool and interesting. So let's go straight to the interview with Evelyn Kong. Rep it.

Evelyn, I am so excited to have a TV producer who's come to podcasting. And I heard you say on one of your Episodes that was pretty recent. As you were kind of talking about your thoughts about how difficult it is to get people in your industry to understand podcasting, that that's a challenge. Tell us a little bit about the difference between TV and podcast now that you've had, what, 70 something episodes under your belt as we're recording this.

Yeah. First and foremost, Tracee, thank you so much for having me. And I'm so happy to hang out with another female boss and thrilled to be here. So thank you so much. Yeah. I've spent most of my career in television and the difference between podcasting and television is not at all different and completely different at the same time. And if that makes any sense at all, bear with me. In terms of content and creating content, that passion and that sort of process is more or less very similar. But in terms of getting other publicists or talent reps or other people to understand the value of podcasting does take a little bit of work. I mean, there's obviously, as you know, there's a deluge of outlets and places and platforms that you need to support and hit and, and podcasting is on that. But there's still, I think, looked at as very indie. It's an indie genre now that there is a proliferation of celebrities. Obviously it's opened a lot of doors, but not necessarily for the indie podcasters that are not established celebrities, if that makes any sense.

It totally does. And I think there's this difficult model of explaining value to, even at an industry level. I get, maybe I want to be associated with this celebrity, but that's still a branding choice and it's not a value choice, which is still crazy.

I'm sure you and I, you've also felt this challenge as well. I mean, there's a lot of legwork when creating anything, anything. Any creative endeavor, TV show, a film, a podcast. This was a lot more work than I even anticipated. And I'll wholeheartedly admit I was a little bit. I underestimated the amount of time and effort that a podcast takes. And I will speak for myself because I am very much a stickler for details. I'm sure you are too. To hit a certain barometer and hit a certain sort of quality, it takes a lot of work. But going further in terms of the differences, it's a difficult challenge to explain the value of first appearing on a podcast and then appearing on a podcast that is not established by a well known name like Conan o' Brien or Joe Rogan. There's much more of a headway. So to Kind of cut through all of that noise and then also try to explain to the reps and their teams what the show is, why it's important to speak to this particular outlet. That is always a challenge. Even in television. Even in television, like with huge names and studios and networks that I've worked with, that is still something that is like the tough mudder of production.

Oh, that's such a good way to put it. I love that you said that, because it is. It's like a slog. Like, you have to go through this and, like, barrier. Yeah. And you're like rolling around, around in the mud and you're like, oh, my God, now it's this.

Like, now what? You know, it's exhausting. Yeah. Now I have to climb on this and then struggle through this and go under here. I mean, that's just what production is. But I think with podcasting, it is that and more, because you have to prove the value of not only your platform and the content, but you have to prove that in some ways, depending on what your show is. In my case, I do a lot of people from entertainment, I have to prove that I'm worth their caliber of talent to be able to duke it out for that sort of notoriety, so to speak. And that's not necessarily bad. On the good thing, though, I don't have to deal with hair and makeup, the glam team, which is great when I work in television. That's a whole nother layer that I need to consider because that does take time, and you want to be able to give everyone the time and the space they need to do their job.

That's so funny. So when I first started my first podcast, and that was now eight years ago, I did it because we didn't want to do videos, so I didn't have to have my hair done because video wasn't casual. Back eight years ago, it was still YouTube. Videos were highly crafted. It wasn't live stream casual. So it was just a different model. And that's why we chose podcasting. It was simply that it was like, I'm not having my hair done every time we need to record. It's just not happening.

Exactly. And it's funny that you mentioned this because that was also one of the reasons what that drew me to podcasting as well is I don't need to deal with hair, makeup, and all of the lighting and the backlight. I mean, it's just so much. I think it takes a lot more time than anyone thinks. But I do think, and this might not Be a popular opinion that the pandemic sort of equaled the playing field in many ways because there was no other way to communicate. There was no other way to ingest and consume content. So this was what it was. And now this is sort of much more acceptable and palatable.

But I still like my husband and his had a potatoes with me, Tom Hazard. And he just yells at the tv. He cannot take it when these remote reporters don't even have a microphone. Like, you and I both know this microphone that we're using is not expensive. You could buy an $81. It's not expensive. Would you get a microphone and stop using your AirPods? It's like, awful. And he yells at them.

They are the enemy of all podcasters.

Yes, thank you for saying that, too. Let's talk a little bit about your production model, because there's so much in podcasting that is completely done off the cuff. Cas. No editing, all of that. Yours is edited. Yours is highly produced. And I think that you have a bigger burden than others because you're a producer, right? So, like, they looked at that and the people who you're trying to ask on your show, and they have a higher expectation. You have a bigger burden than I do.

It's just.

It's absolutely there. So what do you do in that production process that maybe is similar to TV or different?

First of all, God bless you for pointing that out, because so many of my friends were like, just put it on. It's fine. People are gonna be fine with jump cuts. People are gonna be. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not going to be fine with that because my name's going on it. And you know what? At the end of the day, you're right. I can't put it out there because people know my track record and pattern. And I can't say I've been in television for years and not put something out that looks halfway decent. And yes, to your point, the bane of my existence is bad audio, too. And this is what I've learned in production. A bad picture is more forgiving, especially.

On a mobile device.

Right? Yes. Bad audio is. It's insufferable. So my production. I do not ever skip out on doing homework for my podcast. I research and read as much as I possibly can. I'm sure you do, too. And just look at everything and you prep and you sort of understand or you get a better handle. I can't say you have. You can understand, because that's the whole point of these conversations is to understand one another a little bit better. But my production technique or process is very similar to television. I am a stickler for prep and research. I never cut corners there. I spent a lot of time doing that. And then what I generally do is, and there's a million billion ways to do this, this is just my method to my madness is that I sort of jot down, sketch out very roughly some general areas that I would like to hit. I don't write exact questions because I feel like then I get too tripped up on like wording things or trying to remember the exact question. I just sort of have all that information marinating. And when you do so much research, inevitably, whether you like it or not, it's in your brain. And then I just kind of go in and have an idea of the general direction. But I'm also very open to like throwing it out the window and sort of going with the flow and feeling it out. Because at the end of the day, I think authenticity and an actual conversation is much more engaging and interesting than being just reading questions.

And if we could just get those reps and all those other people to understand the value of that and the connection to their celebrity, the guest on your show, that's where the value of podcasting is. That doesn't happen in other places.

Exactly. Because to your point, and just to extend that, and I'm so glad you said that as well, is because you can, and people do go on millions of outlets out there that just say, hey, watch my show. This is my clip. It's on at this time. But the long lasting legs is when a viewer watches it or listens to a show and genuinely likes this person that they're hearing, they're invested in this person and understands them a little bit more, or you root for this person. And I think there's a longer term gain when you establish a relationship and a connection. And I think that's the value. I think you get a lot more and much longer bang for your buck, for lack of a better metaphor, because.

Too much ends up on a cutting floor on TV and.

Right. But you know what? Like, I feel like when you get to know someone and you like them, it goes a lot further than just somebody coming onto a show and saying, hey, I'm on this show and I'm doing this and it's really fun and it's gonna be on this time. And you're like, all right, cool, that sounds interesting.

And then you forget that was the sound bite.

We're done. Yeah, you're out But I think when you have an opportunity to actually establish a more of a rapport through the outlets that are available and you're saying something more substantial and inspiring, it's much more lasting. So I think that's a real value in terms of podcasting especially, and I love that, that I actually think television does not offer and I think podcasting does.

Well, I think the interesting part, and this is me as an observer, I'm not an industry insider, but as an observer and a watch, a consumer of all kinds of media types, that TV always seems to be pushing its agenda. The show has its agenda and its direction where I feel that a lot of podcast show have a general set like yours is repin and it's really talking about how you represent yourself and how you represent your communities and the missions and the things that you have in your background and you have that view of it, but that's just an underlying theme in it. It's just the vehicle to get somebody to click on the show. The rest of it is going to happen naturally. And that's what the beauty of podcasting is, that naturalness.

I agree. But here's the thing, and again, this might be an unpopular opinion. I think there's a lot of times that people, and I'm not saying that this is just specific in podcasting, but just in media in general get into it for, for self fulfilling reasons. I think there are some podcasters obviously like yourself, and hopefully I can include myself into this list where it is just about genuinely having a connection and having a conversation. And yes, there's many podcasters out there that do it, there's many outlets that actually do it. But I think it's a lot to kind of weed out in this sort of oceans of shows and platforms out there. And I'm looping in podcast with television, with magazines, with all the stuff that's out there. Yes, a lot of outlets have their own agenda and they have their own marching orders to get. But I do think there are obviously some wonderful outlets out there that also allow the space to be able to actually have a connection. And I think those are the ones that are so amazing and well worth the efforts to really find.

Yes, but there are harder to find and that's part of the problem. Right? They're harder to find. Yes, because too much of the, and I call it the I heart model because they actually specifically say that they do this and so it's like they're out there stating it. So I might as well actually call it that. But it's a pretty common thing. I mean, I was watching the Lucy and Desi documentary and some other things and they did it too. It's like you don't realize. It's like we have this advertiser and now we need a show for it. Like that's how it's built. And so, so when you do that and they have such an extreme, I mean, I heart does have an extreme high failure rate in shows that don't make it past season one because it doesn't fit the model. So the advertiser says, that's not what I intended. Even though it might be a great show if it got to continue, it doesn't have that opportunity because it's got the burden of that advertising model. I really think the Indian podcasters, those of us on that independent model, have the advantage because we don't have that burden. We can actually create a show that feels right for us and right for our audience.

Amen, sister. All to all of that. Because here's the other thing that I love about podcasting, that after doing television for so many years, there's so many layers that I have to go through and upon notes because each person has their opinion and some are better than others. But this is all just opinions, right? But with my podcast it was sort of like succeed or fail, it's completely on me. So it's obviously far more nimble because there aren't that many layers. I'm sort of the creative control of it and there's plus and minuses to that, like every other situation. But going to your point also in terms of having specific outlets with very specific points, not to get political, but there are obviously news outlets that are imposing very specific points of view and this is happening on both sides, doesn't make a difference what side you are, doesn't matter. And I think the cautionary tale here is for the audiences to really slow down and question the source and also look at the source's history and patterns and also ask yourself, are they spoon feeding you something? Are they allowing you to make your own decisions and choices? What's happening there? So I think it is very challenging for you, for me to do it. It's very challenging for audiences to find the shows and due diligence. And it's a lot. It's a lot all the way around. But again, I'm grateful when I'm able to have conversations like this with you, who also is so aware of it and is having the open ended platforms and genuine conversations.

I want to point out that One of the things that you say about your show is that it is unscripted. And I think that that coming from the TV side, that that's a clear distinction that needed to be made by you. Because there are those TV producer shows that are very scripted. Right?

Very scripted.

And I tell my audience this all the time. I can actually tell the difference.

It's.

I can tell because I listen to so many podcasts, part of my job here. But I know when a show is scripted from the moment it starts.

What are your dead giveaways, Tracy?

My dead giveaways is the pace. So there are people who have great paced voices, but the pace of reading is so different than that. There's not an energy fluctuation over the time. And so actually, the dead giveaway for me is I can speed it up and instantly know.

Ah.

Because when you speed it up, it has this level of, like, there's none of the pauses in between. So you don't have what you would consider dramatic pause or thought. Yeah, you don't have any of that happening. And it's, like, consistent, and it doesn't modulate like you would expect emotional levels to happen. It just doesn't do it. And you instantly know, oh, it's a scripted show. And then I'll slow it down and really listen to it and I'll go, gosh, you can tell she's reading it or he's reading it, and that's not a good thing. And I really believe that that's a key to what's going on in your show. That is so wonderful, is you are going with it. You're going with your insider understanding the direction that you'd like it to take. And I'm so glad to hear you don't prep questions, because I imagine on TV that happens a lot when you have a celebrity who's doing the questioning and then someone who's doing right. You expect that there's probably a producer behind that doing all the prep, but you can hear it. It comes across. They've got cue cards, right?

Yes. Yes.

And you don't do that. And I can tell no.

Thank you for that. Look, again, this is my method to my madness. There's a billion ways to do it, and a lot of people do it successfully. My way is not certainly the right way. It's just the way I'm comfortable with it. I will say this. I have been in enough situations.

Where you can be super organized and super planned out, and I am very prepared. I don't walk into any shoot Cold. Not knowing the material or not knowing who I'm speaking with or at least what they look like and sort of the content needs. But 95% of the time it never goes as planned. Right. And you just sort of need to go, okay, okay, that's done.

I didn't expect them to say that. And now I gotta go there.

Yeah. Or how to redirect it. I've had some interesting, interesting and colorful, well known personalities that I've worked with that are not always easy and. Or not very cooperative sometimes, or just cranky pants, but either way, you just need to kind of be able to think on your feet. But if you know the material and you know your research, you just go back to it. It cannot go into something cold. And there's a lot of times that I'll watch other shows or podcasts or interviews and you can see the person doesn't even know the character's name and are like glancing off to remember their names. And I get like spacing out here and there because that happens.

It happens to all of us.

Yeah, it happens to all of us. I've actually called people by their show names by accident. But you know what? If you know the material, though, it shows. So whatever happens, the inevitable craziness or chaos, you're in control because you know what you need and you know the content. So I think that's so critical. But I, Yeah, I don't script anything in my show.

I love that you don't do that.

So let's talk a little bit about. Because you were talking about this, it's like why you're doing this. And I think that that's really important, especially when you have to put so much effort and it is a lot of work. So there has to be some kind of. And I call it the return on investment, because typically we talk to a lot of marketing and podcasts, business podcasters here, but you've got to have a return on investment for your time. Something that you're getting back from it. And what is the sort of more logical thing that you're getting back from it? And what's the sort of unexpected thing that you found that you just were like, I love podcasting because of this.

Okay, these are great questions, Tracy. Thank you for that. I'm gonna answer your second question first. What was surprising about podcasting? What I didn't anticipate when I started this show was how much recognition, acknowledgement, and sort of understanding and perspective it would bring to my own personal upbringing. And as an Asian American woman, And as a daughter of an immigrant. And it made me realize that I was missing a huge part of my community, which is, you know, I have a lot of great people around in my life, which I'm very grateful for. But I didn't have a lot of Asian people in my life that I could relate to. And I think only through these conversations has it sort of slowly dawned on me that this was something that I was actually starved for. And I can give you many instances. I don't know if I've ever shared this publicly, but there was one instance where I grew up in one of the boroughs of New York. I was one of the very few Asian kids and mostly Italian. Anyway, long story short, recently I'd gotten Covid like everybody else, and I was texting with someone who was a guest on my show, and we became friends. Yvonne Chapman from Kung Fu, an amazing actress who plays Jalan. And I said, oh, my God, I got Covid. And she texted me and she says, do you want me to send you some jook? Which is kanji. And I have to tell you, it might not seem like a big thing. And it was incredibly kind, but it blew my head off because it was the first time in my entire life, and I'm a fully grown woman, that a contemporary, a friend, said to me, hey, do you want me to send you this? And juk is congee, which is equivalent to American's chicken soup. It is something that Chinese people and Asian American people eat for breakfast. It is a comfort food. It makes you feel better. It's full of protein. And it was the first time that I had a friend innately understand, like, that was something to do and that wasn't weird, and I didn't have to explain it to someone. And she just offered it, and it blew my head off. Cause I realized, like, oh, my God, I've never had that in my life. And she understands me, like, without me having to explain it.

And you met through the show?

Yes. We did not know each other before. We did not know each other before, and we've become friends. And she's a wonderful human being. I'm truly world class. But that was the time where I was realizing, like, I was missing all this community. Because if I say I'm going for dim sum, it's like a novelty thing, or it's a special thing for, like, me and some American friends. But if we were going for Asian foods, like, she just gets it. So I think in many ways, and there's been other significant conversations where I realized with Mike Bo, actor Mike Bo, who is on again, the kung fu and the company you keep. He was talking about how he realized and he was able to unpack it, which I wasn't able to. Anything that he saw. Asians were being portrayed as the undesirable social outcasts. And when he said that, I actually, literally, it was like a lightning bolt hit me in the head. I am older than him, so I even had less representation than he did growing up. I didn't realize that that image had actually imprinted on my own personal identity. So I very much identify as a dork and an outlier because, I mean, dating in my day and age was, like, impossible because I was the only Asian person. So I felt like the undesirable, awkward person. And only then was I able to sort of make that connection. So I think it's really helped my own understanding of my own experiences in ways that I didn't expect. And in terms of return on investment, the reason why I'm doing it is, frankly, I'm scared shitless. Tracy. The world is a very complicated and terrifying place right now, and I don't think anyone is listening to learn. Everyone is listening to respond. And I think people are moving at the speed of light for many reasons. It's a hard world to survive in, but we need to really stop and slow down and look at what we're putting as priority and putting value. And I think that you cannot go by things that you see on TikTok or on Instagram as fact. And that is the stuff that's superficial, much like skin color, much like race, much like orientation, all the way down to the celebrity. It's still superficial. You don't know these people. You think you do, but you don't. So it's time to really look at one another and say, well, do you actually exemplify the values that you think you hold?

I think that's so interesting that you're saying that, because I think that that's the complaint that people have about podcasting is that there's no way to like. It's not an immediacy respond. There's no commenting going on. It doesn't work like that. It's a little bit more of a passive media type than any other. And yet you chose that one as the vehicle for this message and this mission that you have that I think is needed.

Thank you. It is a lot more work than I thought.

Yeah.

I wish I had this conversation with you before.

That's what a lot of my clients say. So you're not the first person who's like, why did I know this beforehand? It's so much work.

It's so much more work. I mean, if I didn't care about it so much, I would just throw it up there, but I just can't do it that way. Yeah, I mean, look, I think podcasting takes time. It takes investment also on the other end, in terms of audiences, and I don't want to ever take someone else's time for granted. And that's why I sort of edit it down, because I don't spend time talking about my soup or my pizza or my weekend. And that's fine for some shows, and it's right for some shows, but for me, if you're listening to it, it's going to be 100% down to the best nuggets. We're gonna get right down to business. Because I'm a New Yorker and a producer, I wanna get from A to B, and I wanna get the most from my time and most from my money, and I wanna make sure I deliver that to my audience as well. And I hope I am.

Oh, I think you really are. So every time on this show, I psychoanalyze the podcast and podcast host who's on my show, and I give them what I believe their binge factor is. And it was really hard to do this for your show. And not because it doesn't have a binge factor. It's not that at all. It's that you shifted your show. And so it was sort of late last year, you started to shift your show and you created this new model. So I decided to do it mainly on this new model section because I really think this is where you're going moving forward. And I think that that's worth commenting on.

Maybe.

Yeah, maybe. Because that's also something that I do see. Sometimes people try something new and then they discover this just doesn't work for me anymore and I'm ready to move it on. So I'm going to comment on it from that direction. But what I really see as the binge factor in your show is that this isn't the short conversation, this isn't that superficial level. It comes across in every choice that you make on the show, from who you're going to have on to how you edit it, to you deciding to break it into pieces and maybe doing a lessons learned afterwards, that you've decided that this opportunity to deep dive into what makes this person tick and how is that coming across is such an interesting model to do. However, when you choose to do it with celebrities or actors, that's an even harder choice to make because how do you be sure that they're not still acting for you? Right? And so it requires this time commitment that you've given it, this in depth conversation and then continuing that forward. And I think it's some really smart choices that you've made. But what I love even more and what makes it bingeable is the fact that when you do the lessons learned or you have a conversation with someone, you're actually tying your episodes together. You're creating a thread through them that works. And so you just did this on our call here today on our interview where you're referencing Yvonne Chapman and Mike Bo and things that you gathered and learned. And when you do that in makes me listen to your entire show all the way through from beginning. And then once I binge on you, I'm your friend too, and I get to know you over time without you having to just give me all of you and tell me your story and spill that all and give me what you had for lunch. You don't have to do that because I've grown to love you through the show.

I thank you for all of that. And it's funny that you mentioned that because I'm going to be, and here's a little sneaky peeky, I'll be actually evolving that a little bit more. I think I'm going to be doing a lot more of the learned lessons, more through social media and YouTube and because of many reasons. One, I'm happy to tell you again, this is another little sort of sneak peek. I have enough episodes for the year banked and the lineup that I have is just incredibly diverse, very powerful. I think I have some episodes that will be very tough. There's a couple of episodes coming up that's gonna be very, very tough, but critically important. And I'll say this, I'll share this with you and I haven't shared this with anybody else on any other show. I have a special two parter coming up and it's going to be with Sarah Cruzan. And Sarah Cruzan made headlines because she was a child survivor of sex trafficking. Now, it is a devastating and painful story. But here's the thing. At the end of the day, when you just listen to the atrocities that she's had to suffer, you know what she's doing, she's advocating for others. There's a law in her name to protect children from abused homes from facing life sentences. In short, when she was young. She did not. The world and society failed her literally at every turn. And in a world where she knew no kindness, no love, no security and no help, she is providing all of those things for everyone else right now. And to me, even though it is a painful and devastating episode and there is a disclaimer at the front, it is a story about remarkable persistence, heart, goodness. Because I've met with Sarah many times, and she is a lovely, light, funny, articulate, sweet woman. And I don't know about you, but I get pissed off and cranky when I get stuck in traffic from road rage. So now it sort of puts things in perspective and it reminds me personally what a person can do if they choose to, and what a person can live with and manage. Because even the most difficult traumas, and we've all gone through difficult things in varying degrees and in our own ways, and I'm not gonna say they don't leave us scarred and battered, but in multiple instances, people have shown me that you can move forward with them, and I think that's the takeaway. It's not to say that you're not forever changed, and it's not to say you're not, like, beaten up and sometimes you feel like shit, but you can still move forward positively and you can still give back. And all of the lessons that Sarah has shared is, again, not exclusive to someone who's gone through trafficking. It's about being able to pick yourself up and to keep going. And I think that's invaluable.

That's what I think is so great about what you're talking about here, is that when you do your lessons learned, it's like this application to you, and the audience is getting to know you in that process. But I'm also starting to see the path where I could apply that to me. So you're actually almost giving me a roadmap at the same time as a listener, and I think that's really important. So I applaud this idea of you putting that more on social, because there's not enough of that on social. There's these sound bites of like, oh, hey, this is my hack, and I'm so inspired. But what?

Why?

Like, yeah, how, like, it's all missing there. So I really do like the idea of it because I do think that will lead to listeners who really then say, okay, I hear that and I need that. I'm going to go listen and I'm going to get that.

Thank you.

And I think that's a good roadmap. For just podcast listener growth in general, which is obviously an important part. I stopped asking this question early on. Well, I. Probably after 100 episodes, I stopped asking it because I was like, okay, 100 times the same exact thing. Which is I would ask people, like, how are you growing your listeners? And they would say, like, this is the thing I'm not good at, like everybody. Or this is my. My bane of my existence in podcasting. Like, it's the same pro. Everyone's struggling at that. Doesn't matter how qualified, how great a show they have, they all feel like that's the struggle. So I was like, okay, I need to not ask the question that way anymore because it's not worth it. But this is what I do think is really the question that we do need to ask is when things weren't working and it wasn't working and it required a shift for you, what was that signal? Because I don't think we listen to that often enough.

Honestly. I'm still going through growing pains and evolution, and I think after so many years in production, I know you don't ever hit that, like, cruising altitude necessarily. It might work in some genres, but I don't believe that it works in production. And I think sometimes when you hit that cruising altitude and you're just cruising, you kind of need to figure out.

Like, maybe that's the danger sign when you're starting to cruise.

It's like growing right as a person if everything is just like this all the time. And, like, it's like you're reading your example of people who are scripting their podcasts or not so prepared. You can hear it and it sort of goes this, and there's no sort of ebb and flow. And I think like everything else, everything's a heartbeat. You either hear it's real and you feel it or you don't. Again, I'm going to put this on my lessons learned on and sort of my own insights on some more social media now. So I'm going to be pivoting that a little bit. But if it doesn't work, then it might just go away. And I'll be very honest with you, and I have said this before, I am not comfortable being the host. I'm not comfortable being in public. In fact, I have had numerous conversations with my friends and Marlee, who's my amazing publicist, that I've spent most of my career avoiding the Internet. There wasn't a photo of me. There wasn't anything of me. It was like, nothing technically.

Look at a Show as well. Because that's just what we do. I have an audit process. It's kind of like this model of looking at the show and the choice not to put your name as the host of the show now becomes evident. Like I was like, this is one of the questions I was going to ask you maybe off air. But I like, yeah, it was a choice. Obviously it wasn't just.

Yeah, no, if you listen to any one of my episodes in the first season, that's 12 episodes. I never said my name.

Yeah, I did notice that. And even still you rarely say your last name. You just say your first name.

Yeah, well, I mean, look, the conversations are casual and they're intimate. So I'm not gonna constantly just. And I wanna keep it that way. I wanna keep it kind of casual cause that's what these conversations should be. They don't always have to be heavy handed. But I'm not comfortable being in front at all. But I do understand it's a part of the job at this point. But after doing, you know, so many decades in television where I am behind the scenes, that's an area I'm very comfortable in. And I did not start this show to be in front of or to be talent. I'm actually quite uncomfortable speaking about myself and I think I'm kind of boring too. So this show is really about spotlighting people you think you know and what we can learn from them and sort of trying to get to provoke thought and for people to look at where we each can learn more and really examine or reflect on where we put value and our priorities. So I don't know why anybody would want to listen to me. And again, I'm not quite private and I'm actually quite shy. So this is a very new thing for me.

Yeah, I think this is the part that maybe coming from the media background didn't prepare you in quite this way, that a host doesn't have to be a host in our traditional mindset in media. And I think that you embody that really well. And I think of this as the same thing. My job isn't to be a hostess, you know, like it's not that sort of like, oh, I'm here to make you look good. No, I'm here to experience the story with you and just guide. So like, I really think that the host is like the wrong name for it. I don't know, we need a new name, like podcast guide or something. I don't know, it just needs a new name. A Sherpa, like who Knows what?

Oh, I can go with that.

Yeah, exactly. I think that would fit you. And so especially, it just doesn't really fit the model of the way a lot of podcasts run. Yours especially. I know the way that mine runs. It just doesn't fit that. And that's why we just almost need this, because we have to break that mindset for ourself in order to figure out what this role that we're taking on is.

I really wish I met you, like, three years ago when I first started. First of all, I would have learned that it's a lot more work than you think. And again, a lot of people get into entertainment and media for a lot of different reasons. I've certainly seen my fair share of people who want to be celebrities and be in front. I'm actually quite adverse to it. So I really appreciate that you also are coming from the same school of thought. And I'm just really down to kind of learn and hear some stories and hopefully remind people of the amount of good people that are still out there, really exemplifying the values and showing up and fighting for it and sort of really making the changes that we all can make and should make.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. And I think that that's really the value of what you're bringing in. This show is just show. Hey, I'd like to tackle media from a different perspective. I'd like to tackle conversations from a different perspective. And choosing an interview show is, as you put it, it's harder than people think an interview show is, actually. It's got its own challenges, and it's not just scheduling. Although I imagine scheduling for me is a whole lot easier because, you know, half the people I interview are, like, dying to get their podcast publicity out there, so they'll show up at whatever time I tell them. It's not as hard for me as it is for you. That's a challenge. The deciding how to get a conversation out of them is. That's different from what you hear on talk shows. That's a challenge. So you've kind of built up this challenge for yourself, and you've tackled it with such great. I want to say gusto. Like, that's a very Italian thing. As you said, you grew up near the Italian community, but it is. It's like gusto. It's like. And as my dad would say, sass. Like, it's. That's what you have in the way that you're tackling this show. And I think it's making the interview, guest rise to it. And showing them something new, showing them a new way that they can be out in the world.

I really appreciate that. That's what my hope is. I hope I'm getting that across. I don't know. Because oftentimes, as you know, you're just sort of sitting in your area doing this show and you're just sort of eyeball deep in trying to get things right. And to your point, scheduling brunch with friends is tough. So scheduling a podcast, yours even, it's tough. I mean, even this one, we needed to reschedule. Cause we're all so busy and you've got a family. I don't even know how you're doing that. God bless you. And I'm on shoots. So my production is fluid. So it is a little bit crazy. I think the biggest challenge, and there's many, there are many, many challenges that any production faces, certainly is an independent podcast, is that I am duking it out with the Tonight Show, Good Morning America, you know, huge radio stations and all of these. And here I come, you know, this like little thing. And even though I have been in entertainment, it doesn't give me that much of a leg up. I just sort of understand how the industry works a little bit, but it doesn't give me like I can just pick up the phone and call them. It takes quite a bit of convincing and pitching and I get a lot of no's, but I also get yeses. And I think it's an interesting dynamic. And I've had thankfully, very thankfully, a lot of guests say they've never done an interview like this before. And this is the reason why is because everybody is put in their own respective boxes. And until we see each other beyond the labels that we are all straddled with, doesn't make a difference what color you are, doesn't make a difference what gender or what job you have. We're not going to get that far if we don't actually stop and listen to one another and see one another based on our character. That's the bottom line. So if I'm talking to Mary Beth Evans from Days of Our Lives, you know, she's an eight time Emmy winner. I had a great conversation with her, but like I grew up watching her and like fangirling like was a huge Days of Our Lives Stephen Kayla fan. But it was a time to kind of be able to talk to Mary Beth beyond Days of Our Lives, beyond her immensely iconic character, Kayla Brady Johnson. Whatever Deborah wrote Johnson.

However many marriages in There, however many.

Many marriages and deaths she's gone through, it was time to really understand, like, who she was as Mary Beth and how she sort of lives her life. And it's amazing to see that she is a woman that continues despite her iconic status in daytime and her enormous success. She gives back constantly. Gives back to foster families, gives back to many organizations she believes in, and she's always made time for that. And I think that's important to see because the sense of community, I think, is also lost. Everyone's kind of out for themselves and it's like, wouldn't we just be happier and more fun if we just helped each other out and doing this together? I sort of don't understand that. So I just want to have that opportunity to see one another beyond sort of the labels that we're all put in constantly. And I think one of the challenges is getting those notable people to see that and to trust that. Trust is a big thing.

Evelyn, I can't thank you enough for representing podcast hosts in a totally new light and a new way and pushing the media industry to kind of get out of the way and let podcasting take its form.

Right.

And so thank you for taking on that challenge. I am inspired by Repn and I hope that the listeners out there. You gotta go check out the show. And I especially want you to listen to Evelyn's sign off that she has her guests do. It's really well done and it builds a little great sequence in the show that she's able to use on social media and in other places. So it's a smart tactic as well, but it really sets the tone for the show. So my last question for you is, do you do it last? Do you do it or do you do it first? I love that choice for you because it kind of. They've experienced the show and then they do it. So it's not at a superficial level anymore.

Let me ask you this. What would your answer be?

I am. So thank you for asking that. So I'm Tracy Hazard and I represent the underserved voices that really, really want to get their message out. And I give them the how to. I'm that how to girl that just says, here's how you're going to break through. Here's how you do it. I'm going to give you that answer because I want you to succeed.

I love it. Oh, my God. Will you come do a behind the scenes with me?

Yeah, absolutely.

Awesome.

I would be honored. That would be. I'd be completely honored.

Oh, my God, that would be so much. That's such a great answer for you.

Thank you. Thank you. And really thank you for bringing this part of podcasting, because I think so often the celebrities and the media and the producers and the way that these shows happen don't serve podcasting growth in general to what it can be as a great media type. It's not progressing it to the next level. It's kind of trying to shove radio and TV and like talk to. It's like trying to shove too much into it that it doesn't need to be.

Yeah. And I have to say thank you also for your community building, because again, I believe in sort of building a community together and having it be not only cohesive, but happy and empowering the others, because if one succeeds, the other succeeds. And I think the places for authentic conversation, which is a two way zone, is rare. So I really appreciate that you invest your time and your preparation because I know that you've prepared and you're not just sort of winging it and phoning it in. And I think that really is a huge testament to your character and it shows me that you actually don't bullshit your way through life and that you actually do the things that you say you're going to do, which, believe it or not, is quite rare. So thank you so much for all of that. We need a lot more of that in this world. Aw. Yay.

One of my favorite interviews, Evelyn Kong repping.

Thank you. We need to go for drinks, adult beverages.

When I asked her why, why she's doing the show, what was in it for her, what was that return on investment? And this is the thing that I think so often happens, it's like the return on investment you expect. So what you expect to get out of it for your business, for your mission, for whatever that might be, is one thing. And very often that happens unless there's a significant mismatch in like, I expected to have million followers. And that doesn't occur. So but very often that does occur, that you get what you intended and the return on investment is there, but it's that intangible, that thing that you didn't expect to get out of it, which is what turns a podcaster into just a podcaster, into a passionate industry podcaster who wants to share their show with everyone, wants everyone to podcast. We're contagious, those kind of people, right? Evelyn Kong is one of those. Right. What she has gotten out of podcasting and the way that she's seeing this opportunity for conversation and storytelling and just really crafting this authenticity in a way that doesn't happen in the media type she's been working in. That's her brilliance. That's what she's bringing here, is that view of what that industry could do if they got podcasting. I mean, I'm kind of hoping they don't get it too soon for our own sort of jealous reasons, right? Like, because I really hope us independent podcasters can stay valid for a while before the rest of the media gets in, gets wise to it. But I am also really grateful to someone like Evelyn who's bringing this professionalism, this opportunity view, and seeing creatively what she can do with it, because that's going to rise the boat for all of us, right? It's going to show us the opportunity of what podcasting could really become. This place for this opportunity to share stories, be yourself, to get deeper than the characters you play or get deeper than the surface of your business. Going deep. That is really a theme of what she was talking about. And everything that she does and how she produces her show is meant to do more of that. She's editing, but she's not editing to get sound bites. She's not editing to craft this conversation. She's editing to move the story along, to move the conversation along, to keep the audience engaged, to get the point across. She's not editing for that other sort of more artificial model that gets imposed on podcasting a lot of times when we see professional producers step into the industry. So she's really just doing it in such a different way. And I value that. And then, as I mentioned on the show, like, this is the great part about the show. This is my personal intangible, my return on investment. Investment is I learn so much from so many amazing, diverse people where I can just get perspectives on things that hadn't occurred to me. And that input gets translated into how can I make better services, how can I help my podcasters, how can I help the industry move along, and what can I do with that? And that input is so valuable to me that I can't stop doing my show. And it's so interesting because Evelyn was like, you could do this if you could do that. And she's got these amazing, great ideas. I have this feeling we might be doing some more things together and absolutely looking forward to being friends with her. And that is such the value of podcasting that you are not going to understand till you get started and you start recording and doing interviews and building rapport and just getting to know people. On a deeper level, it's going to change your business, it's going to change your outlook on the world, and it is going to change you at a fundamental level when you start to internalize that and figure out what you're learning along the way. Just like all those lessons learned that Evelyn is bringing into her show as well. So you're going to want to check out Repn. There's some really amazing things about how she does some of her segments and she gets them to do this close that we talked about. And there's just some really interesting ways at which she does her intro as well, where she's giving a sound bite from what somebody says. And this is where a good producer who does it themselves, it's so valuable. And you're going to hear that in the show as well, and then really listen to the way she asks questions because that is so, so valuable. It's going to teach you to be a better interviewer, but also you're going to meet some really interesting people. One of my favorite podcasts to listen to is and also because I'm kind of a geek, a space geek, as you all may know that from those of you who've listened enough. Michelle Hearn from Picard the Star Trek. She comes on and her episode is fantastic and I just love the rawness of it and the way she says things. And it's just a beautiful insight into Michelle Hurt's personality. There's a lot of episodes like that, and so I'm sure you're going to find a celebrity that you are just so fascinated about. Want to hear behind the scenes on. But also find some that you've never heard of before and check it out because it's going to inspire you in getting to know people's stories. So go check out Repining Evelyn Kong and really enjoy a great new podcast that you're going to want to subscribe to and become a fan of. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracie Hazzard. I'll be back next time with another Binge Factor and another great, inspiring guest who's getting us all to become better hosts.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.

Sam.