How Podcast Stories Of Healing And Change Can Change Perspectives With Lucy Copp, Host of Life on the Outside (Podfaded)

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all noise with the binge factor.

Hey everyone, Tracy Hazzard here on Feed you'd brand and I have another very interesting center of influence podcaster to bring you, Lucy Kopp. She's got a very different podcast from many of the ones that we talk about here. Her podcast is called Life on the Outside and Lucy is a producer and writer living in Los Angeles. She has volunteered for the past four years inside the California prison system with an organization called Partners for Reentry Program. Her work inside a prison includes co facilitating a parole preparation workshop called INSIGHT, which is an active program in over 20 California institutions. Three years into her work, Lucy created Life on the Outside in an effort to hold space for the conversations and stories shared by those returning home from prison. I loved the show. I didn't expect to. I mean, I have to say that I was like, you know, is this really relevant? Are you all listeners? This isn't a business style podcast. Is it gonna bring something to you? But the minute I started listening to it, I knew there was something special here. And the specialness is what Lucy Copp brings to it, which is the storytelling style that I think you can learn from, whether you're talking about these deep, sensitive stories that she's bringing to you of people coming out, being a lifer inside to what their life is like on the outside. So it's caught a compelling transition story as well to maybe something that you're bringing a before and afters to what's going on in your world or your impact business of transition and helping people through pivots or making transformations for themselves. Her storytelling style is really, really unique and of course she has a heavy entertainment background, so she's bringing that in as well. So I'm excited to bring Lucy Kopp to you because of all of these things and really highlight her as a center of influence in creating a more storytelling side to podcasting. Let's chat with Lucy.

Lucy, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited about your show because life on the outside is, was enlightening to me. So I have to say, like, I mean when somebody comes on my calendar and schedule, I start looking at their show and going, okay, let me pick a couple episodes to check out. I actually binged your entire series.

Oh, that's awesome.

Because they were so compelling and so outside of my own personal experience. So I have couple of really good friends who had being in prison situations, but you're talking about pretty cushy prison compared to some of the people you talk to. And so their life on the outside is not all that different from the way it was on the inside. It didn't change that much. And so to hear the stories here, it's got to break your heart a lot of times.

Yeah, I think just generally a lot of it is heartbreaking. I also find a lot of joy in the stories that are shared. I find a lot of hope, a lot of just resilience of the human spirit. I don't want to make a podcast that breaks people's hearts every time they hear it.

For me, I guess it's just like, why does it have to be so hard for them? You know what I mean?

Like, you're just sitting back rooting for.

Them, but you probably are making a lot of the editorial choices as you edit the show and edit the details. Thinking about, how do I create this journey to a positive feeling? Is that what you're thinking about when you edit it?

I do. I do. I mean, we don't focus on the crime a ton. It comes up if it comes up. I do think it's important if they're comfortable sharing what brought them into prison. I ask, but, yeah, I mean, there's, you know, a general arc to the story, and I think naturally, just what comes through is this kind of resilience. And, yeah, it definitely is heartbreaking, and I hear that a lot from people. But what I hope also comes through is just, like, the amount of strength these people have to get through the system and heal a lot of their deep, deep wounds, too.

Yeah, absolutely. I did find it particularly interesting when someone said, and I don't remember which episode it was, but someone said that he didn't want to talk about his crime at all anymore, that he needed to move past it, and I thought he should have the ability to do that. Yeah, he did his time. He shouldn't have to be. He was regretful, and he had all of that, but why should he have to talk about it? That's such an interesting perspective that you don't get. And it may be way so many things in our lives, like, you could see that applying to so many things you're beating yourself up over.

Right. In this era of true crime podcast mania. And I'm a fan of true crime podcasts. You know, I think it's really interesting that our approach with this podcast is to put the crime not at the very crux and core of what this is about, but to the side. And it's still important, but it's not the starting place at all.

Right. The stories are so I'm gonna say they recognize the changes in themselves over time. And I thought that that's so insightful that you can have this view of what you were like before, what you were like inside and what you are like now that you're on the other side. And I thought that's wow, remarkable that they have the insight in themselves to look at them that way. Look at themselves that way, totally.

I know it, it blows my mind that they've just become masters of sort of their story. And actually the people that I interview, they were all lifers. So it's a name that's commonly given to people who are sentenced in prison. And what's unique about this group of people is they don't have a date to get out. They have to earn their freedom, which means they have to go before whatever state you're in as a lifer, you go before your parole board and you are either found suitable or you're not found suitable. And part of being found suitable is knowing your story, having the insight, having the remorse. And so people that are granted suitability and are released, which are the people that I ended up interviewing, do have this really amazing story to tell and they've workshopped it and they've practiced it out loud. So they're actually a great group of people. They have amazing stories and they can tell it so beautifully.

So let's talk about how you got started here. I mean, what made you want to do this?

Oh, well, I was working in film and TV in LA and have always been drawn to media and storytelling and then sort of in between gigs. I've always like, enjoyed volunteering and wanted to be part of community. And I'd done some prison volunteer work in college. So I started going into prisons in California across the entire state with, with actually this 77 year old Catholic nun is just such a badass. And she has this kind of mock parole workshop that helps men in these facilities. Basically gives them the opportunity to tell their story and they don't get a lot of opportunities to practice. This was their opportunity. So I found my way into this workshop And I think I was just totally drawn in, and my world was blown open. And this thing that was this, you know, mysterious system and this intrigue and this curiosity just became about the people and the work they were doing on the inside to heal themselves, to make. Yeah. Just to live a better quality life and make something of their life. And so just as a me, being someone interested in media and storytelling and life on the outside was my way of, you know, also doing something that I really enjoy doing, which is storytelling. Storytelling and interviewing people, but coupling that with this volunteer work in these people I'd been meeting. So that's where the podcast came from.

And what made you decide it was ripe for a podcast?

Well, I mean, podcasts as, you know, like, they can be so diy. I felt like I had the ability to start it tomorrow.

It didn't feel like overwhelming production and totally did.

It took me a year to start it, but did think about a documentary film. But there's something. Again, probably a lot of your listeners know this, but, like, there's something so intimate about a podcast, about just hearing people's voices. And this is a topic that can be controversial, can bring up things in people, and I think it's just easier to hear their voices and to not see an image of them or a picture or whatever.

I think you're right, Lucy, because, you know, here's the thing. Like, as I was listening, it could have been my aunt or my uncle or my brother. It could have been anyone like that. Like, I didn't have a preconceived notion of, oh, that's not in my circle of friends.

Right.

That person. That wouldn't happen in my world. It really sounded like it could have been anyone I knew.

Yeah. Yeah, it can be. I heard someone say once, she was a parole board commissioner at facility, and she said after a hearing I went to, she said, you know, we're all just a situation away from ourselves. Being incarcerated. That's so scary.

Right. Oh, my goodness.

Wow.

Yeah.

I don't know that we are all a situation, but, yeah, I mean, we could be. Right? We could hit someone driving our car, which is. The last person I interviewed was a DUI murder. And that was really tough to listen to. Most of them are gang violence, but, yeah, you're right. It shouldn't feel as far away from our life and world as it does for most people. Right.

And I think that the podcast intimacy of it actually helps with that. So I think if you think you're like, Orange is the new Black, like, we've made it into entertainment, we've made it something farther from ourselves. But the intimacy of the podcast really helps that, bring that right in to. It could be anyone. I know. It could be me.

Well, yeah. And we are hearing a lot more stories like this in mainstream Orange is the New Black and we have more films and documentaries. Always the concern though is who is in control of the narrative, who's telling the story and what story is being told. And for people who are vulnerable, who are marginalized, you gotta be really, really careful. We should be careful about how their stories are being told. And part of the reason I take my out so much of this podcast, I'll go on rants too, that I'll just edit it all out, you know, I'll be long winded.

I shouldn't have said that I'm changing the narrative, right?

Yeah. But it's really for them to tell their story on their terms.

And so let's talk a little bit about your process because your show is produced in a really different way than many shows. So we just turn it on like we're doing here and we start talking and occasionally there's something interrupts us. The dog barks and we edit it out. But it's not really like heavily post produced. And so what are you doing on a pre production side to plan it out and what are you doing on a post production side to really, you know, develop your story?

So there's not much production. I do book a studio in downtown la. I have a nice relationship with them. It makes it a lot easier. I do audio engineering, but this just takes away a lot of my own stress. And then I know a lot of people in the community. So if I someone is put in touch with me or there's someone I want to interview, I'll do like a really informal. Like I wouldn't even call it a pre interview, but for all intents and purposes that's what it is.

In case someone's just really nervous about it.

Yeah, it's just a feeler for me and for them. I will ask a lot of people and they will be unsure and so, you know, we'll just have a call and talk it through. And that's basically all I do in the pre production phase. And then if they decide to do it, we meet in the studio, we pick a day and time, we record for about an hour, a few minutes under or over. And then as you're alluding to, I edit it a lot. Depending on how the interview goes and how chronological we say how on topic we stay. Sometimes it's a lot of editing. Sometimes I don't have to do as much.

And sometimes you do rerecords, like you record yourself saying something different and just to lead in it and change the lead in.

There's been a few episodes where I've added a little bit of narration here and there or something up top. I haven't really, and this is something I want to explore, but I haven't done much intro or outro or really any of my own voice at all. I've basically stayed out of it completely.

That's what's really apparent. I mean, it's really surprising in it that there isn't a lot of you questioning and drawing it out. One of my favorite things is like, you know, every so often I think it's John Oliver or something like that. Like one of those shows where he'll show this montage of interviewers, like leading them to answer in the way and like making them repeat what they said.

You don't do that at all.

Right. There's such an absence of your question in a way that it is almost like a stream of consciousness story is what it feels like.

Yeah. To be honest, I actually do want to explore leaving my questions and more. I think part of this, and this is my first podcast, and part of it has been my discomfort with my voice and my questions and I stammer and we're all our own worst critics. But yeah, there was definitely an intention with taking me out. I do want to keep my questions and more. I think it's useful. I think it makes it more dynamic. And the truth is this is a conversation. They are not just telling their story into the air, they're telling it to me. So we'll see how that goes.

Well, I want to hit just a couple of our lessons because I want to talk some more about your show. So some of the lessons that I look for from every podcaster and because your show is so different, looking forward to hearing how your experience has been. But we're looking for some of the best ways to do things. So what have you found is some of the best ways to get these interesting guests. So normally I say books, great guests, but in your case, they're really just interesting.

Well, I would go back to like the pre interview or whatever you want to call it, that first conversation, and to not have an agenda going into it. So if someone's tipped you off on someone you might want to talk to, if you have time, meet them for coffee. But I think A phone call is fine. And I think you just want to be totally open. I mean, what's interesting to me is, like, what do people want to say? Like, what have they just like, if you gave them a microphone, what do they want to tell the world, whether about themselves or what they believe in and what they've learned? And usually all of us, there will be something. And I think that's where you get these really animated, exciting, hopefully vulnerable stories. So even though this is a very specific re entry after long term incarceration podcast, I just leave it totally open. And when you leave that kind of space, I think you can hear different interesting things. And then following your curiosity, what did they say that really, like, made your ears perk up? Oh, I want to remember that thing that they said and, like, make sure I follow up on that.

So in a way, establishing that rapport and that pre call does sets the tone for how it's going to be and so it makes it easier for them to decide, is this a fit for them or not?

Yeah, totally. Totally. For me and this group of people in this podcast, it's all about trust and rapport. The last interview I did a few weeks ago with a woman, and she started off and I could tell she was nervous. She was sitting upright, she was giving these very buttoned up answers. And what I showed her back was, I think I might have even said, you know, and we'll cut it out, but like, hey, you can relax and just don't worry, this is totally a safe space. And she goes, really? Because I feel very uncomfortable. And for the rest of the interview, she was herself, she was swearing, her arms are flying around. It was amazing. It was like a little bit harder on the audio, but authentic.

So who cares, right?

And she felt good and she was like, out there and it just totally changed the energy in the room. So I think you also have to expect that people are come into it wanting to please you. And that is not what I'm looking for. Like, need to please me. Like, what do you want to get out of this?

Interesting. Well, one of the other things most podcasters struggle with is increasing listeners. So how have you been able to find listeners? You have a really unusual show and many podcasters rely on these great guests to push it out to their audience. I can imagine you're featured are really excited necessarily to send it to many.

Of the people you know. Yeah, some are, some aren't. Some don't know what a podcast is when they enter the studio. Some don't know what it is. When they leave the studio, it's all over the place. I don't know that I would share anything wildly. You know, there's like, cross promotion, ad sales, whatever. What I've really been interested in right now are live events and how to make your podcast. My podcast, a living, breathing thing in the world that people can engage with and interact with. And I think a really good assumption, no matter if you have one listener or 18,000 or 1 million listeners, is that there are a core group of people or person that are so dedicated and love your podcast and are like, really like fans, like hardcore fans. And if you operate from that place, what could you give them? What else could you give them? I guess I'm more interested in engagement than audience size. Obviously, I want more listeners, but.

Well, we're going to. I'm going to ask you that in a minute, so we'll get there.

Oh, sorry, sorry. Okay. That's okay.

So we talked a little bit about how you produce it, but what do you consider. Because you've got a background in production and in all types of media, you know, what do you consider to be the most critical factor to producing in a professional way for a podcast?

I mean, the audio quality, I guess. I don't know if that's stating the obvious, but just having. Yeah, having good audio. And then I think the rest of it comes down to taste in terms of how you're editing and doing sound design. But when I listen to new shows and I hear poor scratchy audio or it's a remote interview, which is fine, but it's over the phone, I can get by it.

But it better be really engaging.

Really engaging. Yeah.

And it better improve by the next episode. Right? Yeah. We only have so much patience for that. I agree.

Yeah.

I think that that's the number one thing that we hear back from the listener side of things, is that, gosh, they just wish you would improve your sound quality. So if you can record it better, and that's what you said you went into a studio to record. So recording it in a better environment to begin with is helpful.

And then the next thing I will say, I think the next important thing is to have, like, an identity. Like, what is the identity of your show? What is the outro? What is the intro like? And that comes down to the music you use and the way that you pull people in from the top. I'm your host, yada yada. I think listeners want to know what to expect from episode to episode, so.

They want some kind of comfort at the same time, right? Like I'm in the same place even though the story might be different this time, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Well, let's talk about that encouraging engagement thing. So how do you encourage engagement on conversation on this? Do you post on social? Like how do you do that and where do you do that?

Yeah, Instagram is my biggest outlet. I don't do Twitter much or Facebook much. I do do a lot of Instagram. I think people are more interested in the Instagram sometimes than actually listening to the show.

That doesn't surprise me. That's why I'm laughing here because yeah.

To be fair, I think it's a really strong Instagram. I love humans of New York in the way that they profile people and then share little story, you know, excerpts about their life. So it has that feel. And then I work, you know, after every interview I have a really good friend who's a professional photographer. We'll go out with the interviewee, we'll take a walk in a park, we'll go to a diner, we'll go to a museum. And she'll shoot a whole roll on 35 meter film. And I have these great photos to use. The interviewee has great photos they can use for whatever purpose they. And it just creates a ton of content.

Wow, that's so powerful that you do that. And I think that's what so many of us miss when we do these remote interviews. Like you and I are not in the same room. I wish we were. For some respects this, you know, for some shows, this is what we've got to do because we are all busy. But I love that that's a priority for you because I think that adds for a powerful engagement afterwards. You're really showing like I got to know this person. I met them. You're their real.

Yeah. And then, you know, I think for a lot of us people who have guests or do long form narratives, our guests become part, part of this project and they can share it and they're the ones that are going to go talk about it. And I think we need to see them as like collaborators in this. And so I send them all holiday cards. Like I make sure they know this isn't like a one and done. I got your story. Thank you. Goodbye. This is like whether you like it or not, you're part of my life now and I really care about you.

You touched me and I care about you. I love that. Lucy, that's so great. So you're just looking at that and you're building a lot long term relationship as well.

Oh yeah, yeah. Because I want to do live events and I want them to be involved and I want them to continue to share their story if they want to. So yeah, thinking about everyone that is part of the show as a long term collaborator I think is really useful.

Talking about the next thing that on my list of lessons is, you know, the best way to monetize it. It sounds like these live events might be in some ways a way to monetize it, but also to move them to have an impact and mission forward. So what are your plans for that?

So I would love to do. Have you ever been to the Moth or heard of the Moth? So it's like stand up storytelling. So my idea is to do like a stand up storytelling show. So it would be like live recorded podcast, but I'd basically have two or three people share part of their re entry story and we'd have a really small audience. I think it would have to be ticketed and I would call it Live from the Outside. A little play on the name. I like that.

Yep.

Yeah, I just think it's a great way part of it. The mission of this podcast too is to like bridge this divide between like people who are returning from prison and the rest of us who just don't know that this transition exists at all. And I think a live show is a great way to like bridge that gap.

That's amazing. And I think that would be a really interesting way for you to take it to that next level.

Hopefully monetize it in some way. I don't know.

But. But you know, I think that that's, you know, taking your time on that and figuring out what makes it authentic and right for you. That's also a choice and I think a brilliant one for you because you could end up cheapening what you've built with the show so far.

Yeah. And I think and for anyone else who has a podcast anywhere similar to what this is, I have to be really careful with like exploitation. So I actually don't really pursue like any kind of like big ad sale type of things or like I'm not gonna get like blue Apron on there. I really don't want to make money. Like when I make money, I don't really think it's gonna be from this podcast and I don't need it to be. I just need a small grant to keep it going. You know, I need to the production costs. But I have so many other ideas for shows. It doesn't have to be this one, and I don't think it should be this one that makes my living. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with that, but I would like a lot more listeners. That would be amazing.

Well, we'll have to try to make that happen here, so whatever we can do. Well, did you expect it to end up a binge listenable show? I mean, as I mentioned before, like, I got into one and I had to listen to all of them because each story was so compellingly different. So did you expect that? No.

I mean, I think it's useful that they're kind of evergreen stories and no, I didn't. I don't know what I expected. Yeah, I mean, I like that, you know, in five years from now, these stories will just still have so much like relevance. People have always gotten out of prison. People always get out of prison. They feel timeless in that way.

But, you know, I think it surprised me too when I found out people were binge listening to my first show and I was like, I didn't know it was a thing and I didn't know that I could be binge listen to. It makes it feel very rewarding, like it was worth doing. Then at that point when you hear.

Yeah, I guess even when you say that, I'm like, what? Did you really?

Did you really?

Yes, I listened to them all.

On a weekend? Yes.

Yeah. My younger brother's best friend. I did just learn this, but apparently he's obsessed with it and he re listens to episodes and that blows my mind.

Isn't that amazing? I love that. Well now, you know, you talked about that. You've got lots of other ideas. You expect to not be making money off this show, but maybe something else in it. Has there things that have already happened from the show, some way that you've maybe been asked to speak somewhere or asked to do something that surprised you?

Oh my gosh, so many things have changed, to be honest. Yes. Little things. Like friends are asking me about how to start their podcast. I'm just getting a lot of like, oh, I, you know, I've thought about this, but like, really, Tracy? In a much bigger way, like starting this podcast. Since starting it, I've pivoted entirely away from film and tv. And I call myself, you know, like an independent podcast producer. I'm starting to create my own brand called Just Voices. Like, this is what I want to be doing. And I think starting this project, like, yes, it's about the stories and the social issues. It's also about me Figuring out, like, what I want to do and like what my career's going to be, which has been like a long journey.

You know, it's so surprising to me because I have a pretty decent sized segment of our client base at Pottatas that has become in from the entertainment world because we're really close to LA and I do a lot of talks up there and I have a lot of connections there. So all of a sudden they're coming to us. And the one thing I've been hearing from the people who've done documentaries or done a lot of TV and film over time is that they're feeling the creative freedom on the podcast side is kind of addictive. And so I have a few, which I found so surprising that it was strategic for them. They said, I'm starting this show in a podcast format, even though I know it's going to make a great streaming show in the future, but I'm starting it here because I want to do it my way and I want the audience and my listeners, I want to build that so that they won't be able to change it when the network gets involved. And I was like, whoa, that's such.

An insightful way to go about it.

Like you wanted to retain your creative value and prove that it works.

Oh, yeah. And this is happening a ton. Like we are seeing, Homecoming was a podcast that got adapted into a TV show and we're going to see this more, more and more and more. There's just like this. Yeah. I mean, I think TV producers, film producers are starting to dig into the world of podcasting to look for their. Their next big, you know, Dr. Death.

We used to look at books. Right. Not as many people are writing them.

Yeah, it's gonna be podcasts. I would love for Life on the Outside to be a Netflix series. You know, like, I think it's all of our.

Let's put our petition in for it right now.

Oh, yeah, I've put it out there. I've put it out there. But yeah, I've actually even been hired by people to do their, you know, producing, audio engineering. And all my resume says is life on the outside. It's really given me a ton of opportunities in the podcasting world.

Well, let's give some advice. What advice do you give when someone wants to start a show?

I think there's just a few questions I tell them to ask themselves, like, why are you the person to tell this story? What is the story? Is it out there? Even if it's like a chat cast Just what is it that you want to say and should it be a podcast? Honestly, are you set on it being a podcast and why? I think we have everyone starting a podcast.

Just because it's trendy.

Just because it's trendy. It's not always the best format. It's just a blog post to keep it real. Do you really need a podcast? So why a podcast? And then why are you the person to share the story and then do your research? Is this already out there? The other day in a yoga class, I was thinking about a podcast about grief and then I was like, oh my God, like, for some reason, like, the title Good Grief was like, popped into my head. I'm like, oh, that's such a good name. That's so good. And then there's like 18 podcasts called Good Grief.

So, like, no, not gonna be right. Yeah.

Like, is this already being created exactly the way you envision it? Like, yes, we are original thinkers, but like, a lot of things have been done before. Those are my first pieces of advice not to get people down. But I think that's true.

Let's be a little bit introspective at the beginning and let's think a little harder about this. You know, I think that's so important. What you're pointing out is like, am I the right person to host this show? And why am I the right person to host this show? Those are questions that I ask my clients all the time. Why are you the right one? What relevant experience do you bring here and what perspective do you bring that's different? And when they can answer that, then we go, this is a show for you then, right?

And you might have a brilliant idea and you could also say it's brilliant, but I'm going to be the behind the scenes person who produces this thing. I'm not the storyteller, I'm not the narrator. So I. Yeah, I think it's just being realistic about like, what your role is. And if your role is like at the center of it, then there needs to be a reason for that. Maybe it's your story. It's like how this came, how this topic came to you.

Wonderful. Well, Lucy, I so appreciate you being on the show. I appreciate all the work that you're doing. Everyone out there. Life on the Outside is a monthly show, so you gotta catch it. But take a listen because it's so beautifully produced, it's got great deep stories and you're going to learn something about how you might want to create a tone and a beautiful show that accomplishes something maybe you didn't imagine it could do.

That's so nice. Thank you, Tracy.

Thanks everyone for listening to Feed. You'd brand center of Influence. I was so really excited to bring someone so different to you today and really give you that perspective. And as you know from if you've heard the show before, I've mixed things up a little bit and I hope you enjoyed that and I'm going to try to do that more going forward. So please give me some feedback and let me know if you liked. But I really didn't ask the same sort of how do you start your podcast questions at this time that I really mixed it up and let them have a little more say in how it goes and give the very nuances to the difference of in this case, Lucy's wonderful show Life on the Outside. So please let me know if you like that and if you like more of that by reaching out to me on social media, anywhere, any. And of course you can always reach me on the website at feedyourbrand. Co, where you'll find all the links for all the things that we've talked about. Links straight to Lucy's show A Life on the Outside. I'm so proud to bring people like Lucy Kau to the forefront and make sure that you hear their success stories and what they're getting from podcasting and how it's moving them forward and moving their ability to bring their messages to the world. And I'd love to keep helping you do that by bringing you new center of influences every single single week. So as always, suggest someone or suggest yourself. Love to hear from you about that as well. So thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazzard on Feed. You'd brand.

You'Ve been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and video casting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feedback your brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor. Com guest and apply.