How Successful Podcasting Relationship Building Strategies Gain More Show Guests With Jason Cercone Of Evolution Of Brand

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the Binge Factor.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazard and I have the Evolution of Brand. I have Jason Cercona and I'm so excited to have him on because his perspective in podcasting guest mastery is just essential. He has such a great view of the guesting model that goes on both from a host perspective and from coaching a lot of guests perspective. So he understands how to create a compelling model between the both where both of you win, where hosts win and guests win. And it's all a beautiful relationship building model. And so I'm so glad to have him. I'm glad we he reached out to me, we connected via Pod Match. And as you guys know, because I've been talking about it, because I have gotten almost all my guests in recent months, months through the Pod Match model, I have met some incredible people that I should have known all along in the podcast industry. And because there haven't been enough events and I don't always go to all the podcasting events, I tend to go to a lot of the other entrepreneur events. I haven't gotten a chance to network at that level. And so my ability to build relationships has been enabled by this Pod Match model. And so I'm so grateful for that. But here we go. Jason Sercone. Just gotta tell you a bit about him because he is a podcast veteran, he's been doing this as long as I have and so I really am so excited to have him on the show and really glad that I could bring him to you. So Jason Serkone is a podcast guesting strategist, author, voiceover talent and experienced podcaster. He helps value driven coaches and consultants establish authority and become thought leaders in their niche via strategic, impactful podcast guest appearances. He's also the voice of Evolution of Brand, a podcast featuring authentic entrepreneurs and professionals sharing brand building strategies to help you succeed in your professional pursuits, as well as a contributing author to the best, best selling Pod Match guest Mastery book which we'll talk about in the interview. So let's hear it from Jason and let's talk about the evolution of brand, but more importantly, you're going to get and I am giving you Jason's and the Evolution of Brands binge factor right now before we ever start our episode, which I never do. I make you all wait till the end usually. But I'm giving you his binge factor right now because you are going to get a masterclass in relationship building through podcast guesting by listening to Jason Sercone today.

Jason, I'm so glad to talk the guesting side of things and I'm glad you have the both views, right? Because, I mean, there's a lot of hosts out there who are not professionals on the guesting side too, and they don't always have the same view you have about how difficult it is and how hard it is to find good shows and maximize the opportunity. And so I'm really glad for us to dive into that today.

Me too, Tracy. I love talking about both sides of it, and I think the biggest reason is because both sides need to have respect for one another and what each wants to accomplish. And when that happens, that's when the real magic happens and that's when really good content comes to life.

Yeah, I agree. I think that mutual respect is so necessary and an understanding of what the drivers are. And the thing that always fascinates me is though, how it shifts over time. And I want to talk with you about that as they're starting. So when you were starting your show and when you were starting out guesting, like there are two different stages than where you are right now as this mature podcaster who's been doing this a while, got over 100 episodes and you probably guessed it on at least 50, I'm sure by now, right?

Yeah. Well, I mean, the show that I do now, Evolution of Brand, that's maybe my fifth podcast in the lifespan of my podcasting career. When I first started back in 2015, guesting wasn't even something I thought about because no one was really talking about that. There may have been a few agencies here and there, but my end of things was podcasting. We need to start a show. This sounds great. And I used to host a radio show in college, so it seemed like this natural transition of podcasting is the next step if I want to get back behind the microphone. And then once I got into the podcast space more full time and started working with people and helping them launch shows, it was connecting me with entities that were referring guests. And that's when I started to talk to the guests and talk to those agencies and really develop a love affair with that side of it. Because I realized that the host is obviously a big cog in the whole production and they're doing all of that heavy lifting with producing the show and building assets, putting it out into the world and then promoting that show. But they don't have that show without the guest's expertise. If they're building a podcast that's built around the host guest dynamic, they need that other side. There has to be that back and forth that creates compelling content that people want to sink their teeth into. So that was why I dove in. And I knew that evolution of brand needed to be this podcast that had information that helped leaders and professionals grow their brands. But I had full respect for what the guest wanted to accomplish as well. And I knew I had to get the best possible conversation out of them. So my audience had great content to tune into, but also that guest had content that they could share with their audience and position themselves as a thought leader.

Because if they don't share it, no one wins, Right? Like, it just doesn't work for anyone, right?

Yeah. And I've heard so many arguments that get well because they're on so many different shows and. No, like, to me, the biggest reason why a podcast guest doesn't share the content is because the communication just falls off after the interview. And a lot of podcasters get really upset when their guest doesn't share. And I get it. As a podcaster, I can understand that. But I usually ask, what was your communication with that person after the interview ended? Because more than likely there was a month to three month gap from when that content got recorded to when it got released. If you don't talk to that person at all, guess what? They have a life outside of your podcast. They're doing other interviews, they're running their business, they're building their brand in a number of different ways. So if you just let it slide and then they don't share, some of that's on you, right? You have to have these conversations. I'm not saying you drop everything, but podcasting is all about building relationships.

So what do you think podcasters should do better? Like, what do you see? Like is works and what doesn't work?

Well, like I said, ghosting a person after the interview is over from both sides, that doesn't work. But I think coming at this from both sides, you have to treat it as a high level networking experience. You're getting an opportunity to build a relationship with somebody that is like minded and may have connections to a Lot of other people that can help you in your plight. If you're not thinking on that level and you're treating it more like a transaction where you show up and I'm just going to talk for a little bit and have some fancy rhetoric that maybe the audience will buy into. You miss that opportunity to really build a powerful connection with someone that could help you make the next big breakthrough in your brand. So I think you have to come into it with that mindset. If you're a podcaster and you're bringing a guest on your show, you have a limited time with them, maximize it. Ask them compelling questions, get the most out of them, give them the best possible interview you can. Maybe the best interview they've ever had. Yeah, that should be what you're striving for, because that is going to create content that when your audience hears it, they'll say, damn, that is interesting. I wonder what else they're doing. What other content? Who else are they talking to on their episodes? And then they go right into the binging. Right?

Yeah, you definitely want to encourage the binging.

Right?

Like, that's the idea. But I find that podcasters, too often, it's not just the ghosting that it's that they assume that they did the recording and that's it. That's the limit of their job. Everything on the sharing side is now on the guest job. And a lot of the guests, I find, are not social media savvy. They're not sophisticated at creating clips and doing all this. And it's on us as the podcast host to create those things, to give them the assets. And I'm doing that in, like, air quotes for those of you who are listening. Right. The assets to the show, give them what you want them to share. If you're not giving to them, then you're also not doing your job as a podcast host.

I agree. And that's a big part of it, too. There is an opportunity to go deeper and something that I ask everybody that I'm a part of, if they're willing share the raw file with me, share the recording with me, I'll clip up some additional content and put it on my network. And for me, I'm doing that to promote myself as a thought leader, because I'll pull the best clips, but I'm also going to point people back to that show. So every time I post that, I'm going to say, this clip was part of my conversation with Tracy on the Binge Factor. Go listen to it here. Because the goal is not just to have a little one minute clip. That helps, but I want people to go listen to the full conversation. But on your end, as the podcast host, you should be creating something that your guests can share and it helps to ask that up front. Where do you do the most promotion for your brand? Because this is a mistake that I've made and I realized that I'm creating content that they're not using and it was because I was making the assumption that they'll just post this on Instagram. Well, what if they don't use Instagram?

Yeah, exactly.

What if they need a horizontal video instead of a reel? So I ask the question, where would you like to promote this? And then I'll create a piece of content that you can use and then I. Does that guarantee they're going to post it? No, but I have a better opportunity of getting it posted as opposed to assuming they'll put it where I think they'll put it.

Right.

And then it just collects dust on a shelf somewhere.

Well, and that's something that I feel like we do this. So I do this is that when I'm hosting, of course we have all the assets we give out and honestly, I show them. So I mean, I've shared this on the show before. I know you went through my booking process, right, where you go to my booking page and you get the confirmation page which shows you examples of the posts that we're going to provide you content for. Right. So we provide those to you. So we do that. But when I guest on a show, I also though clip something different, do something, because I have to do it in my brand. And I think that's really where you, what you're headed towards is that sometimes what drives the guest is a little bit different than what drives the hose. And you may need to do both. And you might need to have something that's a little more guest focused and a little more host focused. And this is why we do an asset. We call it ego bait. And I. People have heard me say this before, so. But you may not have. But we do egobate. So you're going to get in a quote, quote graphic. That is going to be something I said about you and your show where I'm saying it's amazing, right? Like basically that's the net result of it. So that you can share that. You're more likely to share that on social media than if I shared a quote of something you said on my show. Because that's probably redundant to the messaging you're already saying. But when I say something about you is amazing, you want to share that because that's like a testimonial.

Right?

And so you're more likely to share that. So that's the first flip on it. We have to look at this from both perspectives as the guest and as the host.

Incredibly smart. I think that is an awesome approach and to speak to what the guest needs to be doing, I feel like a lot of the mentality is that you're bringing your expertise to the show. Your job is to talk about what your specialty is. Hopefully you're doing it from a value standpoint and not trying to go into sales mode the whole time, because that's a major turn off. And a lot of people, if the show even were to go live, someone may listen to that saying, well, this is just an infomercial. I don't want any part of this. And then they turn it off and they may never come back. So doing it from that standpoint of value and bringing it to the microphone in that capacity will serve you and the podcaster better. But from the guest standpoint, if you're just doing that and then ending it, you're costing yourself opportunities. Because this is content that's designed to showcase what you are specializing in, what you're passionate about, and it can be used to show your audience that they've put trust in the right resource.

Right.

And the only way that they may find some of these podcasts is if you share it and you say, I had the opportunity to have a phenomenal conversation with Tracy on the Binge Factor. We talked about X, Y and Z. And I feel like this speaks so much to what I'm always telling you guys, go listen to that podcast. And that's a little on the nose. But the point is, when you put that in front of your audience, it gives them more reassurance that they've put their investment in the right person and they know they're going to continue to get value from you.

Right. And like, here's the thing, all of you listening out there, I invited Jason on the show because I wanted his brain. I wanted to hear what he had to say. So if I want to hear it, I know you're going to want to hear it. That's my job as a host. Right? Is that what he's talking about? This high level networking means that I want to hear this. If I'm bored to teach tears, it's the same messaging again and again that your listeners are. That's not serving anyone well.

Absolutely right.

And this is why we have so many people quit their podcast, right? Because they're born to tears, right? I mean, what a shame. It's like, it drives me crazy. It's like you go on a show and then as a guest, and then all of a sudden they're gone again. You're like, no, it drives me absolutely crazy. I'm like, it was a good show. You guys should have stuck it out. What was wrong with you?

Yeah, and that's the thing. I mean, and this is my personal view on this. I'm looking at the pure creation and production standpoint, as we are into 2023 now. There's so many people that are jumping on the bandwagon. So as more podcasts come out, that degree of error, it keeps getting less and less. And it means that you can't just skip a few weeks and expect to maintain your audience. You have to remain consistent. Because if your show is worked into somebody's life, and every Thursday when they go to the gym, they listen to your PODC podcast, and now they arrive at the gym and they go to download it and it's not there, or they go to pull up their podcast and they're subscribed and it didn't pop in. Guess what? Well, binge factors out there. I'm going to go listen to Evolution of Brand today. And now that's in the rotation and. Exactly. And as more shows come in that appeal to that person's consumption habits, if you're not there and you're not keeping them invested in your content, you lose them. And if you want growth and you want to maintain your visibility as a podcaster, you can't do that anymore. It's so hard. That margin of error has shrunk to such a small degree. You have to be wary of that.

Let's talk about this sort of idea of how you counsel your guesting clients, how you counsel them to choose good shows, because I think sometimes it's hard to tell. You might hear a dynamic guest. They sound really. I mean, a dynamic host, and they sound really great on the show, but then it's a horrible experience on the back end, and you won't know until you do it right. But is there anything that you do and teach them in reviewing shows and trying to decide where they should put their energy and guesting time?

I have a process that I look at when I'm reviewing shows, but for me, I like to have a conversation to make sure that they're serious and make sure that this isn't some fly by night, we're going to see if a podcast floats and maybe we'll keep doing it if it does. But if it doesn't, get X amount of done. Because you can tell when you talk to somebody how bought in they are to creating a piece of content and then building on that content over time.

Well, and I think that's especially happens with a new show. Like, I like to give new shows the benefit of the doubt.

Me too.

But like you say, you want to kind of find out how like, really invested in it, Are they. How bought into it, Are they. Are they going to be committed to doing enough shows to make it worth a while? But I think a new show. I don't know about your statistics on this, but our statistics say that the first 10 episodes of any given show will be the most listened to of all time. So if you said, I'm not going to go on a show until they hit a certain number of episodes, then you discount the opportunity to actually be one of the most listened to episodes. But it is riskier. Right. So you got to have a little more time on your hands.

Agreed. And that's the thing, when it really comes down to it, what are you giving up maybe half an hour to an hour of your time. And I'm not saying that you don't do a vetting process. You don't make sure that it aligns with. That, to me, is the biggest part. If you can find podcast content that is so in tune with your message, audience size doesn't matter. And episode count and download numbers. Download numbers are always irrelevant. But the episode count vanity metrics. Oh, yeah. I was gonna say we could go on a rant about that for hours.

But my listeners have heard that from me, so I'd be happy for them.

To hear that somebody else. Yeah, it's almost one of the pillars of my business is bitching about download metrics. But we'll leave that.

I'm so glad you said that because I'm gonna say right here, before you go on, is that any guest that asked me for my download numbers is immediately ruled out as a guest.

I don't blame you. I don't even look at that information. That's how irrelevant it is to me.

Yeah.

And I always challenge new podcasters to not look at their metrics for the first six months, and they all look at me like I just sprouted a second head.

25 episodes, six months, exactly.

My advice, you have to get better at this. Download metrics will do nothing to make you better at this. If anything, they're going to make you upset. They're going to make you think you're not good at it.

Yeah.

Because you have to build your audience, and you build your audience through compelling content and you have to get better at your craft to make that happen. It's a progression.

Spoken like a true industry expert. Jason, thank you for saying that.

You're very welcome. I'm happy to throw that knowledge out there to anybody. But when you're evaluating whether you want to make a guest appearance on a brand new show, if the content aligns and if the person that's hosting the show has some credibility, you can look at their website, look at their social media. If they're speaking the same language as you, it makes sense to connect with them and put your name out there. Because like you said, Tracy, that show could blow up at any point. And if you're in the beginning part of that catalog, you're going to be one of the elements that helps it explode. Maybe, just maybe it's your episode that makes them explode. So, no, you don't want to base it off of the fact, well, they don't have 50 episodes yet. It's not worth my time. It could be, because even the smallest audiences could be comprised of the people that you want to hear your message. But you won't know if you don't take that shot. And again, what are you giving up half an hour to an hour of your time getting to geek out about things that you love?

That's right.

Pretty good.

So I agree with you. I think alignment is that one thing that really matters most. But sometimes I'm going to say the hosts do a really bad job of describing their show. And if you're just going on search or the charts or any of those other tools, that's where it starts to fall apart. And I really hope by the time our episode airs that our new tool will be out so that I can kind of share that as a preview to everyone. We call it POD Lister, but the metrics that we went on there, I think are really aligned for what you're saying here. And that's what I want to dial into, because what we based our POD Lister algorithm on is based on this idea of alignment and how you can find that better. Where you see the indicators don't have to listen, but you should listen like, so it'll build a better list for you and then you can listen to those. So instead of having a hundred to listen to and 90% of them are already POD faded, you go for the ones that are active, you. You know, you dial in that list better so that you can be a little more accurate with where you're going with that. And one of the ways we did that was because podcasters are so bad at describing their own show because they wrote it before the show started. Right. We were just talking about that. Like, you write your description, like, before you start your show, so you don't really even know what it is. And then a lot of them don't go back and ever fix it.

Right.

So it didn't really accurately describe what the show has become. And so that's really where you can miss a great alignment of a show if you don't take the time as a guest to listen. So I love that you're advising them to check the alignment.

That's the biggest part to me. If it's not aligned, it's a waste of time for everybody. And I'm old school. I know that there are a lot of AI tools, and it sounds like you guys are putting one together as well, and I think it helps. I don't discard this as technology that can better our experience, but there's still that element of human nature, especially when it comes to listening to a podcast, that can help you decide if it makes sense for you, because you may. It's funny because I know in my training courses that I have built within my program, I have the process built out of how I would vet a podcast to make sure that it makes sense. Listening is like step seven, I think, in the process. Yeah.

You don't listen until you've already done the review. And make sure all the other things.

Are, like, there's all this other criteria that I want to look at. And maybe those first six items, all I could check every box and say, yeah, they did all this. But then I listened to it, and they're miked terribly.

Yes.

Or what they're talking about, like you said, Tracy, has nothing to do with the show description. That doesn't align. So it has to check off all of those boxes. And if you don't listen, you'll never know. And I start off my podcast with a question. It's the same question it has been since episode one. I just had episode 136 launched today. As we sit and record, every episode has started the exact same way. And I know if someone has taken time to listen to my show before they came on because they're either thrown off by that question and you need to repeat it, or they already have their answer. Teed up and they blow me out of the water with it. And there are people that can think on their feet. I understand that. But you can tell when someone's a little thrown off and you know they haven't done their due diligence. And I don't do that to throw them. I do it because I just want to get the conversation started.

Well, I got caught once and I am a listener because I always listen to everybody's show. I usually listen to three shows. Like I listen to your intro episode, your teaser, what you did the beginning. Because I like to see the progression from where you went to, like, your latest one. I like to see if there's a difference in there. And you did some really cool things in your teasers. So I definitely want everybody to go check that out because there are actual clips from your first few episodes in your introduction episode. And I think it works really well. It's a really well produced one. So I heard that. But I got caught once because the person's show was like a 90 minute show and that's like a lot to listen to. And so I listen on double so speed. And then as it got to be like 40 minutes in, I was starting to like lose my mind as it was. And I had to go on the show because they were a client. So, like a client invited me on their show and I'm not gonna say no. And so I skipped ahead and a little bit and then caught the last 10 minutes or less, five minutes or something like that. And I missed a thing that he did and it was this crazy thing about there's an animal outside your. Like, it was weird and I missed this as a part of it. And he asked me this and I give the most off the wall, like, stupid answer. And he looked at me like, what? And so then I had to like, make up a reason for why I have that animal.

And so, like, it was just the most uncomfortable experience ever. And so from that point forward, I was like, if I can't listen to the whole thing, then I can't be on their show. Yeah, that's a problem.

Well, and that's another thing too. It's completely up to you and completely up to the producer. And I always think back to this conversation that me and a friend had with another person. We were at Podcast Moving a couple years ago, and this guy knew my buddy who has a very good Instagram presence. His name is Travis Brown. And I'm sure a lot of people listening may have heard of him. He does amazing reels and that's a big part of how he's built his brand. But him and I were talking, and then someone approached him, and we were talking with this guy, and he was talking about the length of his episodes, or. I'm sorry, he was talking about how he just was. Wasn't getting the most from a show and needed to figure some things out, and just the times just wasn't working out. And the first question we asked was, how long are your episodes? Two hours a week.

Oh, God.

I was just like, well, there. I think we just solved this problem in one question. Just start shortening your episodes. Well, I can't. What do you mean you can't? I can't. I can't shorten my episode. They gotta be two hours long. No, they don't. Especially if it's causing you stress.

Yeah.

So, I mean, that's. Again, it's completely at your discretion. But that's advice I give anybody that's producing a podcast. Don't do it to a point that it's going to cause you to burn out and quit doing your show.

Right.

Two hours, that's four episodes if you cut it up. And I don't think anybody would lose the experience if you were to do that. And you save yourself a lot of time and a lot of stress. So, again, when you're podcasting and it works on the guesting side, too, you have to be aware of the time you have to dedicate to it, and it can potentially allow you to hear things like that.

Very true. I don't guest on shows that are under 30 minutes, and I find it.

Reason.

Yeah. My reason for it is my message and personality. And the way that I do things just doesn't come across as well in sound bites.

Okay.

Like, people want the answers. They don't want me to just whip out a sound bite in seven minutes and, like, have that be done. They want to hear why and they respond better. If I had the time to dive into that. So that's what I found is that I'll drop a nugget, but then they didn't get the answer, and it frustrates them on the other side. And I get outreach in a kind of weird way from the shorter shows. So I rarely do it now. I'll do it if I'm promoting something or, like, if we've got, like, a promo for an event that's coming and they're going to get more of me somewhere else, I'll do that, but I won't do it as, like, is that the end content. And also because I find most of those hosts are just selling stuff. They're phoning in a model of podcasting and they're not really devoted to it, and they'll take anyone on.

I've heard that done. I've been fortunate that I haven't stumbled into that myself. And I've been coached and told that you should only bring people on that you want to be a client. And I think to some degree there is some value in that. But at the same time, I value the relationship. Now, if this person could become a client for me, that's great. But they may know five people, that would be perfect and they could make an introduction for me. I don't want to discount that because a person just doesn't line up with the type of ideal client that I'd be looking for. Like I said, I mean, I've heard of people doing this straight. This is my sales pitch and this is where I'm going to do to get somebody in front of me. I think it's a terrible approach.

Yeah, well, that's what I find. I find the ones that do, the short ones are funneling, and that's why they don't, you know, and so it's really a waste of my time.

It's like the courtesy to get.

Yeah, it's like I'm giving you 10 minutes, but just so I can talk to you and sell you. And so that's why I kind of like, I just. It got to be too many of those being in that icky model that I was like, enough. I'm done. When the more you guess, the more you know. Right. Like, the more you find out what's working. Well, yeah.

I mean, even with a strong vetting process, it doesn't mean that everything's going to go great. I mean, you can really tee up what you want to talk about and know how it's going to relate to that podcast or into that audience. But. But maybe the chemistry just isn't there.

Yeah.

For me, I feel like those green room conversations that take place before the interview, that's a great indicator of how things are going to go. Because if you instantly turn on the mice or turn on the screen and just start talking and everything is good.

You'Re gonna go like, it's gonna go good from then on.

Yeah, it's gonna pour on in. That's gonna pour into the actual conversation that we're recording. But some podcast hosts get so hung up on this bullet point list of questions that they have to ask they forget the fact that they could just have a conversation and no one else knows that these questions exist except them. So if they don't get asked, who cares? Have a good conversation, make it compelling.

Yeah, that's another no for me. Like, so if someone asks me for my list of questions as the host, I say no. And if some host asked me to give me, give them my a list of questions to ask me, then it's a no. Like there's just a lack of professionalism on both sides if that happens.

Yeah. I've only had one time that someone said, here, I want you to ask these questions. And it was after I'd already built the format. So I said no, this is already in the books. I mean I, if I think of it, I might work this in, but I'm not going to go and reformat this. I've only had one person ask, could they see the questions I was planning on asking? I know that's a pretty common thing. I don't mind sharing those questions, but I also put my tag like, listen, I was glad to share, but it doesn't mean we're going to get to all of this.

Well, and I don't ever write them down. So like I don't have them. So. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Like I have bullet points. I've got my little, my little list over here of things that I like checking out about your show as I'm researching things that I want to ask you about. Like I wanted to ask you about what your thought on new shows were and we talked about that. Right. Like, but it's just a bullet point so that I don't forget to ask you a question about it. Not this list of questions that I prepared at way ahead of time. So none of my questions are pre programmed so it would never work for me. And that's a sign of not an alignment. Right. Like, it's just that that guest not going to be frank, authentic, think off their, on their feet. That's what I want. I want them to answer those questions today, not answer the same thing that they answered everywhere else because they rehearsed it.

Yeah. And I think, you know, what you're doing is it's a model that I feel more podcasters need to follow because when it comes to growing an audience, I always think on the level of a television show or a movie, what gets you invested in that type of content? Typically it's the characters, it's the story, it's what sucks you in and then you get emotionally Invested in that. And then you start telling others to, go watch this movie. Go watch this show. Podcasts are the same way. When people start listening to a podcast, they listen to that first episode, the conversation was good, and they'll say, what else are they doing? This one looks interesting. Oh, wow. That one was good, too. Now all of a sudden, they're in binge mode. They start going through the catalog, and as they're getting more invested in that type of. Or into your content, that's when they start telling their colleagues and they start telling their friends, listen to this show. I'm learning a ton. It's entertaining as hell. And if you don't have that type of content in place because you're not focused on having this compelling conversation that gets good stories out of people, that gets them talking in a way that they've never talked before, no one has a reason to get invested, and therefore, they don't tell others. It's hard to grow in that respect. So you have to be thinking of Tracy. You've probably heard this, and this is my favorite thing to hear as a podcaster. I've never heard that before.

Yeah.

Let me tell you a story. No one's ever asked me that before. That to me, I know I've done my job, and I know I'm about to get a piece of content on my show that's gonna be fresh. They're gonna be excited to talk about it because they've never gotten an opportunity to do so before. That's what you should be striving for, each and every interview you conduct.

Yeah, I love that. Let's talk a little bit about evolution of brand, because this is the second conversation I've had in a couple of weeks as I've been doing some interviews in the new year. Like, I kind of do a bunch of them at once, so been doing a little grouping of interviews here, and it's the second time we've been really. When you're saying that, you're really talking about personal brand because you're talking about guests. And so I'm assuming that your version of the word brand is personal brand. Like, how that evolves.

Yeah. And it's funny, the show itself has evolved over time. I mean, from the beginning, the idea was to bring entrepreneurs and professionals together to tell their stories, talk about the obstacles they've had to overcome, and provide some tactical strategy that listeners can then put into action in their own brands. So everybody can use each episode as a blueprint to grow their own personal brand, to grow their Business, brand to grow both. So we've covered the gamut from both sides and what was happening as the show continued to evolve. And I did myself get more into this guesting element and all of these people that are on my show are guests. And so it just naturally would lead to this conversation about how you can use podcast guesting to build your brand and use it to establish thought leadership, establish authority, put your brand on the map. And I've made the comment on the show many times, it was never designed to be a show about podcast guesting. It's just sort of naturally taken on this second element to where we're still having the inspirational stories, we're still covering a lot of the brand building strategies. But many of those strategies have podcast guesting interwoven. It allows me to still speak more to what I'm doing and also give everybody, when they sink their teeth into the show, something really good they can learn from on multiple levels. So in a way it's niche down, but it still has broad appeal, if that makes any sense at all.

No, it totally does. And I think only if you're a real podcast listener do you understand like that. Do you understand that those shows that do that are honestly amazing and they have so much to teach you and yet so much entertainment that they bring as well. Right. Like things that compelling make it rememberable. Like that's the part that I think is so important about what you said before is about if you're going to maximize your appearance, that guest needs to tell a story, they need to be compelling. And that's really where I feel like so many of the agencies that are out there doing the sort of pre program model of like they take a guess, they get their one sheet filled out, the programmatic things are actually starting to hurt you. And because at the end of the day, you actually look the same as everybody else and that compelling thing that you can do doesn't come across in that programmatic way.

I agree. I will say this, and this is not a knock because I know I've worked with many agencies and they've referred some great guests, but what I've noticed is not one of them has ever reached out to. Say, jason, I'd love to have a conversation with you and learn more about your show. Yeah, it's just an assumption that the person they have aligns with what I want for content. And if you say yes once, they're thinking you're going to say yes every single time. And again, like I said, everybody has their process. So this isn't a knock. I just know that my approach. I want to get to know what the creators of these podcasts are looking for, and I don't have to waste their time saying, hey, I've got this person. They're perfect. No, they don't know. And I'm just assuming such. I would rather know. Okay, give me a profile of your show. What are you typically looking for from a guest? What are your expectations? What sort of expertise do you want to feature on your show and have front and center? Then when I bring somebody into my fold, I can say, okay, I know I'm going to talk to this podcast, this podcast, and this podcast, and not going to talk to this podcast because there's no alignment.

Right.

And again, I'm not behind the scenes at these agencies, so maybe that's being done to a degree. But I know that having the conversation on the front end, I think if anybody were to ever reach out to me and ask to have that conversation, I would in a heartbeat say, absolutely, yes, let's make that happen. Because then I don't have to filter through all kinds of different guest requests and guest recommendations that don't align. So there's a big element in that communication piece. And again, as podcasting continues to grow and evolve, that's going to be needed. It's going to be so vital because we don't want everybody sounding the same.

No, we really don't want to put.

People center stage so they shine.

That's the number one driver here as a host. Right. I don't want the same content. I actually get dinged for it. Like, it doesn't help me. Something that's really interesting happened, and I think you'll be fascinated by it. But I was reached out by a former podcast guest. So she'd been a guest on my show before, and she was just giving me an update and how she was doing and what was going on. And she said that she had an opportunity to pitch Grant Cardone to have him on our show, and he was a perfect fit for a show. Be a great guest on her show. It's a big ask for her, but it's perfect. And they turned her down. His team turned her down, not because her show wasn't great, but because she didn't have a blog. And I thought, that's the most interesting thing I've heard this year. And it actually is. One of my criteria, honestly, is like, if you don't have a blog or you don't create posts for your podcast episodes, so that there's an actual post with a link back to me, even if it's not a full blog, then I won't go on your show. And so it's actually, I never even listened to the show. Like, you're already been screened out by the time I look at it and make a decision about.

That's in my. That list. The criteria I was talking about. That's one of them. Yep.

Yeah. It's like, if you add a social media channel and it's like, oh, yeah, I have social media and here are all the is. But you've never posted in them. Like, that would be a no as well. Right. Like, so it's no different for me. When you have a website, but you don't have a blog, it means you're not posting. And so that's a no for me. And I just. It was finally at this level where someone like Grant Cardone's team said, we've done this enough. It's not worth Grant's time to guest on his show that doesn't have a blog. Aha. That. What does that say? He's been doing this long enough to know what works and what doesn't.

That's very smart. Yeah. Well, yeah. In that process of looking, I mean, that's where you can look at social media. You can look at websites. I have it defined as the presence outside of the podcast. And that's website, that's blog. Do they have an email list? I mean, you can gather that information from the website, but when you look at these items, it gives you a snapshot of how they're going to promote you as well.

Right.

And if that promotion is in a good light that you feel works for you, then, okay, you can check that box. And the website and the blog, it's just more potential for SEO. Having it on your website gets them to where you want them to be. So maybe they start looking around at other elements of your website. Yeah, like not having that is a big miss.

Yeah. So, anyway, so you wrote a guest chapter in the Pod Match Guest Mastery book. What's your chapter about? Give us a teaser.

When you read the book, we all got asked the same questions, and I like the approach we were given this outline of. Here are the questions that you answer. We're given S amount of words that we. Your X amount of space and column inches, whatever you want to call it. And what was great about it for me is, okay, everybody got the same question, but everybody's perspective is so different. And that's what makes this book really Cool. Because we're all utilizing PodMatch to grow our brands, to make these connections, to get interviews for our show, and to be on shows. And on the guest mastery side, mainly what I covered was how to maximize your time on podmatch, but also understanding from a broader scope of what happens with these interviews after they go live. And that's one of the soapboxes that I've been standing on for several months.

Now, is you and me both.

You have to think about the big picture. It's not just this one time transaction between host and guests. There's so much more to it.

It.

And if you're not thinking on this level of what happens after the interview, how will I continue to be valuable to this person? What kind of relationship are we going to build? You miss so many opportunities. It's probably not going to be a strategy that works for you if you're not willing to commit that time or bring in somebody like myself that focuses on those items so you can continue to build on that initial interview and get the most from it. So I did talk about that in my chapter as well. But yeah, highly recommend Pod Match, Guest Mastery and the Host Mastery book too.

Yes, both of them are very good.

I think for any new or aspiring podcaster or anybody that's looking to bring podcasting into their world as a content strategy, those books are tremendous resources.

No, I totally agree. And I love Alex over there. We, we do a lot with them. So I'm glad that's how we met. So it's likewise. And that's it. It's like it was an easy say yes for Jason because we looked at, I just look at his profile there and knew instantly he's got a good blog, he's got his social channel, our messages are aligned, our visions are aligned. I only had to check out one episode to know that part and I knew I would do my research later. It was just an easy, easy selection. So I actually think his AI is working really well now. We chose in our Pod Lister app not to use an AI at this stage. We decided not to because our algorithm is based on a lot more. It's kind of like thinking about like credit scores of a podcast that are based on more than downloads. So, like, it's just kind of giving you a bigger picture of the value of a show. But I think that it's the value creation side in that repurposing, in extending the value from the interview, in networking, relationship building, in social, filling my social media afterwards as the guest, in filling my press page on my website and. And doing those things, we so often don't realize that one hour could be worth so much more in terms of what it can do for us afterwards. But we aren't looking at it from that perspective. As guest.

No, I agree. I think we come into this with this mentality and it's really the expectation of just connecting with someone to create a piece of content. But think about, especially now, the world we live in. Like this. We're connecting through Zoom tonight. There are a number of different apps out there and platforms where you can connect virtually. And before the pandemic, I was doing virtual recordings and it wasn't really something that I didn't even think twice. I'm like, well, this is what I'll continue to do. But now this whole level of connection is so much more normalized. Job interviews are conducted this way. So many different partnerships and JV opportunities, you name it, everything comes together. And on most of it, many people like I've worked with, clients I've never met in person.

I think 99% of mine are like that. Yeah.

Yeah. So now you have this ability to where this networking opportunity is what the world does now. And podcasts are the greatest introduction to that that you could possibly ask for because 99 times out of a hundred doesn't cost you any money. It's only going to cost you your time. You get to join somebody who feels as passionate about what you're passionate about or as passionate as you are about whatever your area of expertise is. You get to geek out about it for a while. And at the end of the day. Exactly. And at the end of the day, you not only have this great piece of content that the audience is going to get to listen to and hopefully learn something from, maybe gain some new perspectives, but you also have this beginning of a great relationship and who knows where that can go as long as you continue to cultivate it. But if you don't have that mentality coming into the initial conversation, you cost yourself that opportunity. And I know we've all experienced this.

It.

It sucks. It's very short sighted.

Yeah. Before we go, the last question that I really wanted to ask you is I wanted to get your take on the idea that there are some people out there who have been pushing this from the beginning. And I've never been a fan of it, but there are, I think, some indicators. When do you tip over being a guest, deciding that it's time to be a host? Is there any indicators that someone's going to really Move from guesting to hosting, and it's the right choice for them. Is there any indicators that you found, because you used to coach them the other way, where they were hosts and you were trying to get them to gu more?

Yeah. Such a hard question to answer. And I'll pull the line out. No one's ever asked me that before. I think it's at your discretion. And that's the thing, the general mindset of podcasting. And like I said, when I First started in 2015, the guest side wasn't even really a blip on the radar. And the initial podcast that I did, me and my buddy that did it, we didn't really even think about guests. It was him and I riffing. And then we did every now and then work a guest in here and there. But coming at it from the other side, someone's fresh to this. Ooh, podcasting, yes. This is a new thing. I need to get in on this. The first thought is, well, I need to start a show. Running a podcast is a lot of work. Spoiler alert. It's not just something where you pick up a microphone and turn it on and, oh, you gotta get a podcast. Like, no, there is preparation. You gotta get the right equipment, you gotta have the right recording environment. Then once you find a person to talk to, you've got to vet them and research and make sure you're lined up and you know what you're talking about. And then you've got to do all this back end work. It's a lot. And that's why I usually tell people, if you're wanting to find out if podcasting is the right platform for you to be on, start with guesting. Find shows that align with your mission and with your objectives. Start building a network. Make guest appearances. Tell your story. Get more confident in telling that story. Find your voice. And you may discover one of two things. Or one of two things is one, you are loving being a guest and that's all you need because you have enhanced your network and made all these great connections. Or two, you want to continue to do that and also add your own show to the mix. So if you feel that this was enough to get your feet wet and get you excited, now you have this network of all of these people that you've connected with and you were a guest on their show. So you can say, hey, I'm starting a show now. Why don't you join me? You can take that step. But many people discover, this is enough. Being a guest is enough. I don't need all that heavy lifting.

All that heavy lifting, exactly. Well, and I think the sort of, lo and behold, when you've got your own show and you go, woohoo, this is really great for me, and it is working. You've got this amazing network of people you had invited back on as guests, and you find out that podcast swapping is actually easier and you don't have to work that hard. You can keep guesting.

Yeah, absolutely right. And that's, again, I don't think the. The level of work that goes into the creation of a good podcast, one that's consistent, one that is there each and every week with fresh content for their audience, is fully appreciated. I feel I will use this platform to say anybody that's listening to a podcast or is a guest on a podcast needs to understand how much work goes into creating that episode. And when you have a. A bigger understanding of this whole process, it'll help you appreciate a lot more what's going on, but will also tell the story, whether it makes sense for you to do it yourself, because it is a big undertaking. And we talked about pod fade before. So many people walk away. And I think one of the bigger reasons is because it looks sexy. Having a podcast is fantastic until you have to do the work.

Yes.

And then you get seven or eight episodes in, it's like, oh, my God, no one's listening to this. And I'm putting so much effort into it, the hell of this, I'm done. And again, if you're staring at your metrics at that point, it's too early. And you haven't gotten good at it yet either. So you haven't even discovered if you could be good. So you have to have the right mindset, and I think that mindset can be crafted and cultivated as a guest first.

Well, Jason, I am so glad you are part of our podcast ecosystem in this community and you are prepping some great guest thought leaders out there because we need more great guests on podcasts to keep that compelling content flowing. So thank you for coaching them and bringing your perspective to the podcasting world.

I appreciate that, Tracy. It's a pleasure. I live and breathe podcasting, and not only helping people become thought leaders, because I know it helps them, but I want the podcast ecosystem to be a better place and continue to evolve itself so more people fall into this and absolutely fall in love with it like I did.

I told you it was going to be a podcast masterclass and guesting. Right. I mean, Jason has such a good perspective on this, and I Love that he started out that model of just podcasting and getting his feet wet and getting to know what this podcasting was about. Because when he got the aha of how great guesting is and how great it could work, he knew how to take advantage of it. He already knew what he needed to do on his end as a host, he already knew what he needed to do on his end as a guest to make that work better. And so that's why I think his dual perspective is really advising his clients and serving them so well. So I'm really glad he could come on and kind of give that perspective. And there's so much in that relationship building model that I think I hear again and again from podcast hosts that do wrong. You do wrong by your guests very often hosts out there. And I really hope you're listening to me. If you're new or thinking about how you're going to shift your show, being really aware of how great the guesting model can work for you, instead of of soaking it for everything it's worth, think about how you can make it a win win. That's what Jason is teaching the guest side of it. And we as hosts need to embrace as well if we can make the guesting win win. Look, I could look at Jason, I could look at a lot of people I've had on my show and say, he's selling a competitive tool. This is not a win win for me. And ban everyone who might be selling something similar. I don't do that, that because I think if we all collaborate together and our brain share together, our mind share on this, we're going to all tap into building a better ecosystem in the podcasting market that is going to serve my business, his business, the all of you, really well, right? So it's in my best interest, but it's in his too. That's where we talk about a win win, right? And then everyone I've talked to like, this is what I really love. Look, Alex Sanfilippo, I've had him on the show a couple of times. We have have Jason, we have so many people who come on this show and what have they done? Shared generously. They share their knowledge, they share their viewpoint on the marketplace, they share their nuggets of wisdom. The key things that they give to their clients, they're giving to you freely here with the knowledge that you're going to know that when you struggle, when you didn't get all of it, when you're missing a piece, when you have a question, you're going to find them and you're going to come back. And it's one of the reasons I do what I do for my guests so well, which is make sure that every one of you can find them so, so easily. Right? You go to the bingefactor.com you go to the blog post for this episode. You get everything you need to go directly to Jason. You don't go through one of my landing pages. You don't go through one of my fancy affiliate links. There's none of that there. There is. Get direct to Jason. Find out all about what he's teaching. You. Go to his podcast, Evolution of Brand. Right? I'm giving you those two direct paths to him because if he's right for you, if he's what you need, then please go get that. I want you to succeed in this marketplace, whether you're on the guesting side of things, you're on the podcast side of things, you're thinking about podcasting and you want to get off and get moving on it or you're unsure. I want you to find a way to find surety. I want you to find confidence in podcasting. And if that means you got a guest first, then you got to go to somebody like Jason and find that out. So Jason's has tons of tools on his site. He's also got the books I will definitely link to, the Pod Match guest Mastery book and the host Mastery book he mentioned in here. They'll be in the episode as well. So if you want to download those and go straight to those or you can't remember their name when you're offline, go right to the blog post for this episode. As always, thank you for listening to the Binge Factor and I appreciate those of you who reach out to me and ask me for things, ask me for people, ask me for tools. It makes it so easy for me to evaluate which podcaster should I bring onto my show next for you. So thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazard and I'll be back next week with another Bitch Factor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.

Sam.