How To Choose The Right Host For An Effective Podcast Swap

Want your podcast and videocast to be seen, heard, found and rewarded in this noisy digital world, you are not alone. Join the nonprofit community at Podcasters United and podcast industry experts Tom Hazard and Tracy Hazard as they debunk all that outdated and bad advice you've been getting from the podcast gurus and find out what actually works. Today. Get ready to feed. Feed your brand with smart cut tactics proven to cast your original voice to the world.

Hey, welcome back to feed you'd brand. I'm Tom Hazard along with my co host and better half Tracy, who is back from some travel and boy, we have a great topic we want to share with you today. This has to do with picking podcast hosts to do a guest swap. So, Tracy, you are the undisputed expert in this. You've done a tremendous number of interviews in your podcasting and I guess, columnist career and I know you have wonderful words to the wise to share. So I would really want to turn this mic over to you and I'm going to be the sidekick to you on this episode.

I think ask me the questions, the burning questions. Right? Because that's what interviewing is all about. So I want to explain first, what's a podcast swap? Like you may have heard this term, it's a term that's thrown around the industry what a podcast swap is where someone else has a podcast show, you have a podcast show and you swap and guest on each other's show. That's the idea. So it's not a podcast swap if they're a YouTuber only. It's a podcast swap if they have a podcast show and you have a podcast show and by that an active one because obviously they're not gonna have you as a guest if they. So if they pod faded doesn't count because they're not going to invite you on. So we want to have someone who's already got an active show and you have an active show and you're going to swap and be guests on each other's shows.

Makes sense to me. A podcast swap. I like it.

So why do you think this works, Tom?

Why do I think it works? You're really providing each other value. You're getting exposure to each other's audiences. Why it works. It probably works on many different levels, right? It works to give you exposure to their audience, that they get exposure. Exposure to your audience. So from a selfish perspective of being a host, you get value out of it. And they probably feel, well, that's conventional.

Wisdom right there, obviously. Like you have shows and you're swapping but here's the real key to it. The real key to it is the fact that they already have podcast listeners and you already have podcast listeners. So you're not inviting a guest who's a TikTok influencer. You're not inviting a guest who has Instagram followers. You're not inviting a guest who has YouTube followers only. You're inviting people who are like, for like. Podcast listeners listen to on average seven plus shows in their playlists. So they're more likely to click, subscribe and listen to your show too. So you're more likely to actually get more listeners when you podcast swap with another podcast host than you are to get listeners from having a TikToker on your show. You might get TikTok followers, but you're not likely to get podcast listeners from that because if they're already listening to somebody else's show, they already are interested in podcasts.

I agree. That makes the most sense because it's an easy ask. It's not such a leap for someone who's not a podcast listener to then think, oh, I need to go listen to a podcast. What app do I have? Do I do that? If they don't do it very much, so really easy. And this is something that we've seen happen where we have some customers who will post something on social, let's say on Instagram, a clip from their podcast, a video clip from it, and they get 200,000 views of that little video on Instagram, but then they have a lift in their podcast of about a thousand listeners in that month, not 200,000. And why is that? It's what you just said, Tracy. Not everybody is going to come from that social over to listen.

We see it a significant jump in listeners happening and in growth to your subscribing base, because where they go back and binge listen to all your episodes right when there is a podcast swap. So any host who's been doing this for some time will tell you that the best lift in listeners happens when another podcast host is on their show. It's just what happens naturally. So that's what I'm proposing to you to think about to put that into your strategy. So in the early days, if you're just starting your show, I recommend one podcast swap at minimum per month. When you're just starting your show, you could do more, but at least one is going to help you with that show listener growth that you desperately need. But we're going to talk a little bit today about how to be more effective about which podcast hosts you choose, because that matters too, right? We want to choose the right host for our shows. Not just any podcast host, but the ideas at minimum to create that. Now I personally my show, the Binge Factor has only podcast hosts on it, right? Like it's just that. However, I dial that in a little deeper and I invite in someone who I think might make a good partner for us. So if there's a partnership possibility in terms of the services that they offer dovetail nicely with our services or the advice that they give is very similar to mine or things like that, then I will more likely to invite them on than I am just any podcast host because my show is geared for that. But that makes it actually a little more aligned because if they're going to listen to my guest who has a podcast show who's getting and they're getting advice from them about podcasting, they're more likely to click through and listen to me just by that swap that happens or in addition to that other show, they're going to listen to us too. So that's why I do it that way. The partnership model so let's thinking about what are the three characteristics that I look for in the right podcast swap. I want to make sure we have a matched audience. If I'm looking to attract because I have a community that is only for women, I really want to have women on my show. Like it's just, it's not being sexist about it, it's just a match for what I'm trying to do. So be really clear in your audience, a target, especially if you're just new, starting out and you don't know what it is, have a target in mind and be thinking about is this matched? And you clearly sometimes can't go by what people write about their show. You have to listen to it, check it out. Is this a good match for me with the right type of people that I'm going for be attracted to? This could be. How much money will they spend? I want really high end clients and that's the goal of my show. So I really don't want to go on a show that's all about doing it yourself and bootstrapping things. Right. So making sure the audience match is there in some way shape or form is really critically important to my. That's my number one criteria.

I like that. And as you say it, Tracy, it occurs to me I bet there's a lot of podcasters who don't put in the time to actually listen to the show of someone that they're considering having on their show. And I understand a lot of times people don't have as much time as they'd like to, but it's a pretty important step in that process. Would my audience be interested to listen to this show? Do I? Or would I even be interested to listen? Do you think it's gonna provide value to your audience to have that guest on your show and they go listen to theirs? Or is the show not all that interesting? Is it a dud? Is it not a good.

And the reason why I say if you're gonna do this, you have to listen to the show is my number two thing is that you should have a matched view or perspective. And I want it to be like it can dovetail. It doesn't have to be exactly the same style. It doesn't have to be the same energy. It doesn't have to be all of that. But if I don't believe in what they're saying, I can't have them on my show. So it has to have some matched perspective or intention in the right way. So there are people who will never get invited on my show because their advice to the podcasting industry is not in the best interest of the podcast host. It's just not. They're selling them something. They're selling them smoke and mirrors, and I know it. They're lying to them to get them into their programs. They will never come on my show.

There's a list, and you know that because you screen them out, right?

There's a list of those people that are no nos on my show. So if they ask, they're an automatic no. My team knows because I know that what they believe in and what they're doing out there is not in in integrity with what I want to put out in the world. It's just it. But you can't always tell that if you don't listen. So that's the two. And then I like to make sure that they have similar promotion or publication integrity. And that is, in a sense, that we believe in people who publish every single week. If they're not at least publishing weekly, then first off, they don't have enough guest opportunities for you to be on their show too. So either you'll be out for six months before you get on their show, or it's just not at a pace that is reasonable to do any. So that's the first thing is the publication schedule matters. But to me, if they aren't then pushing it out on social media, adding it to their website, and they don't have to do all. But if they're not at least doing one of those things, then they're not serious about their show. And if they're not serious about their show, then they really don't have listeners. They can say all they want. But I know for a fact they likely don't have listeners, because I see it. I know I can tell the difference by watching what they're doing on the outside, whether or not they have listener growth. And I don't want to be in someone who's not going to promote me. If I'm going to do all this work to promote them, it has to be mutually beneficial. And that happens by checking their website, checking their social media, and seeing how they promote their show. Now, they may not be doing the best practices. They may not be doing it exactly the way I'm doing it. But I also think that maybe they'll learn something from me. So if there's an opportunity for that, as long as they're making an effort, I'm more than willing to share with them my model, and hopefully they can learn from that.

This makes perfect sense, Tracy. You have to give value and you have to get value out of it. And if that's not in alignment, then you shouldn't do it.

And that's what we're looking for. We're looking for alignment. That's why I say matched audience, matched perspective, matched promotion. Right. Or match sharing. You can call it that. So that's it. But what do I want in differences? I want a difference in energy. They probably have a lot of listeners who've been listening to them. And maybe it's that they haven't decided to buy from them or they haven't decided to join their platform or their courses or their programs. They haven't stepped into it because maybe that host has the right information, but not the right fit in terms of personality. And so me being so different and so such a different energy level might be actually a draw in contrast. So that's always good for me. I like it when there's an energy differential. I also like it when there's a style difference. Right. My style's less technical. Right. I just don't go into the whole thing. No, we do it here. You guys hear us? I know my nitty gritty details, right? But I don't do that when I'm being interviewed. I'm giving them the why, the perspectives on things, and then that other stuff comes in as backup stories, other things there. But I'm not going to dive into it. So if their show is all really technical, sometimes me providing that, why that those purposes can really help that host to have a better show and helps to draw people to listen to my show in addition, because now we're providing both pieces for them, and that's really a great way to make sure we're both winning.

I think that's an important thing, especially for a lot of new podcasters to understand, Tracy, is that I think a lot of times I've heard hosts say, but if I invite them to be a guest on my show, are my listeners going to like their show better than mine? They get a little hung up on that, and I think that's a mistake. Right there's. As you said, most podcast listeners will listen to many different shows on a regular basis, and they like yours. They may like another one also. And I don't think we should get hung up on whether they're going to like us better than that other show or maybe this guest. Oh, my gosh, I'm going to lose all my audience to this show because I'm going to like them a whole lot better. They're much more experienced than me. What do you have to say about that?

So competition, right? This fear, this risk of competition is the wrong attitude to have if we're going to lift all boats, if we're going to increase our industry and promote everyone at once. Our good friend and great podcaster, host of the Note Closer show, Scott Carson, he says coopetition, right? We're cooperating and we're competition, competing together. That's okay. I'm not the flavor for everyone. I know it. Sometimes my overexcited energy is just too much for people. There's gotta be some more laid back, Zen kind of coach for them somewhere else, and that's okay, right? That doesn't mean that I'm wrong or they're wrong or that we're competing against each other. It just means that there's more room for everyone in that model and that's what we're looking for. So that competition model mindset, it's not going to be good for you. And if you are in that mindset, I don't know why you'd have this style of show create a totally different style of show. And that might be a, like, debate and argue with your competition show. And I did that. I have a guest on my show. It's actually, I think it probably is aired already, but it may be airing in the next couple of weeks where I aired someone on the Binge factor, who I completely disagreed with and he said. Swore to me that I wouldn't air it, but I did.

Really?

I think you can guess who it is.

No, I'm actually not thinking of it.

I'm going to look it up and make sure it's aired. Just real quick.

I had your show up, actually, in the podcast that I have it still.

Yeah. So I'm just going to double check it and make sure.

But that, I think, was very good of you to have someone on that you completely disagree with. And I think it's important that you had the. I'm sure you did it in a. At least a respectful way, but that you're transparent about how you disagree with the person.

Yeah. I think that this is really something that we have to really look at carefully is if you're gonna disagree with someone, you have to narrow them in and have to focus them because otherwise it's just not gonna work for you.

Let's see the most recent episode.

No, it's not. It hasn't aired yet.

It hasn't aired yet.

Yes.

Okay.

But I'll put it in the chat for the blog post for this episode so everybody can find it when the time comes.

That's important for people to see that probably. Did you expect that? Did you know you disagreed with the person or you didn't know it until you conducted the interview?

I didn't know it would be so contentious on the interviews. I just. I didn't expect it to be that kind of.

Yeah, I just didn't expect it to be that fair. Yeah.

I'm interested to listen to that one personally.

Yeah, it definitely hasn't aired yet. In fact, I don't even see it. Yep.

When did it air? What is it?

It aired on 10, 12 of last year, so that's why it was actually a lot longer. So. It's Albert Corey.

Oh, I know who he is. Okay.

So anyway, so we'll put that in the chat. We'll put that in the blog post posts for this episode so everyone can access that. But I really felt like it's good to put a perspective on it. But I framed it and I told him I was gonna do it. Right. Like it was straight with him. So if you're gonna say, hey, look, I think we disagree on it and I think we should present that idea to everyone. Go ahead and do that, but be straight about that.

Yeah.

And he's not competing with us. He just has a different view on what goes on in the world.

Sure. I think that's I think a very good way to do it. And you never want to publish something and frame it in a way is gonna shock or surprise the guests you had on your show. I think.

Yeah.

Cause you don't. And I don't think many of you.

But on the flip side of it, I'm not willing to be on his show. That's what came out of it.

Is that what came out of it?

Yeah. I knew that he didn't invite me, but I. Why would he When I disagree so vehemently about everything. But I just. I wouldn't go on his show because I don't wanna step into that audience. It's not a match for me. It's a waste of my time. And I just don't think. See that it would be worth my while. I learned that really quickly interviewing him.

Right.

And so that's one of the reasons I'm gonna say this to all of you. I invite first rather than wait for an invitation from them.

Because then you probably. Is it. Cause it's harder for you to say no when you've been invited. And you wanna make sure you're inviting for the right reasons and not just having someone else frame what shows you should be on or something.

Right. Because very likely your guest is gonna feel that law of reciprocity weigh. They're going to be like, I need to invite her on. And I don't want to be in that position where I have to say yes because of.

Or you don't want to be the person to say no and have really. What ends up being a uncomfortable conversation.

Exactly.

To put it.

So I always invite first try or really schedule out so they come on my show first and then I'll cancel on the back end or just didn't book yet. That's usually happen. So I just do it that way because I prefer to give first. It's who I am and how I show up anyway. Right. And then I have a busy schedule. And look, I get asked on hundreds of shows a year and I don't want to be on a hundred shows a year. I don't want to dilute my brand that way. I want them to be a right fit for me. So I just will like, hey, I had done my show where promotion is happening. I'll get on your calendar. And then I just never do. And they don't remember. And so I don't really worry if they push hard and come back to me about why they want me on the show. Teresa, you never booked on my show. And I really Would like you on it. Oh, okay, great. I'll do that. Very rarely does it happen the other way. That's okay, right? Like it happened this week. I was interviewing D.P. newton and I love him and he's got a great show. And I really, honestly, I was shocked he wanted me on his show. Cause I didn't think it was like a. Quite a right fit for me. And we had so much fun on the show that there was no way I wasn't gonna invite him on my show. And it was just a random. I didn't seek him out first. Like, he just. He met me through podmatch. And so he did invite me on and I agreed to go on his show and then because I was intrigued by it when I listened to it and curious about why you wanted me on there. And we had so much fun that I. There was no way I couldn't invite him on my show. It wasn't going to not happen in the other way. So that was a good fit. But it rarely happens where I am. I don't invite first. It's just my model. But you do your own, right. There are lots of people who, they're like, I need you to have me on your show, or they push into the first place. And I just. I just feel like that's. That's not the right energy for it. So I want to be invited on the flip side of that, because it's a right fit for us and the swap is right for us. So I just do it that way. The other thing is that I really have to be careful. That, and in the case of some of the people that you might have on your show, especially if you're doing this competition model, is that we don't get into a place where we're being associated with someone without integrity in the services that they provide, in the coaching that they provide, the messaging of what they provide. I don't want to have them on my show and have to discontinue their episode in the future. And I've done it before where I'll delete an episode because or delist. I don't delete ID list so it won't appear on the podcast app anymore. But I didn't and I remove it from my blog role. So I untag it everywhere in our blog. This is the technical way we do it. But the page is still live, so if they've linked to it, they can send people.

So do you actually. No index, no follow the post even. Do you do that?

I have done that. For a couple of people, someone who got in trouble with the sec. I. I did that, but I didn't delete it because a broken link is a negative on your website, so I don't delete it. And that's something that I make a very clear.

Sorry, I'm getting a little technical on people.

Yeah, we're getting technical.

For a blog post, you can have. Make sure Google doesn't actually send traffic there. There are some things you can do. So they say, hey, this page is here on my website. Don't pay any attention to it. It's kind of like the wizard behind the green curtain. Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

So here's something. Here's my numbers. And I didn't give you this at the beginning because this is not who I am. It's not how I show up in the world. I don't brag about me. It's not how I start. When I start in a podcast. When I'm being interviewed on a podcast, I'm about the audience that's there and what value can I bring to that audience and that host. But that doesn't mean at some point in the process, I want to make sure that you understand my credibility. And there might be a story to that. So I recently gave a speech about AI but it was really about how asking good questions and being a great interviewer and. And having done a volume of interviews over my lifetime here. And this is really only in the last eight years that I've tracked this number. I don't go back further than that. In the last eight years, I've done 3,003 interviews. That's my number quite a bit. 180,000 minutes of interviews.

180,000 minutes in eight years. Okay.

Of those interviews. And I do, on average, 375 a year.

275 what? A year.

Interviews. Either I'm interviewing someone else or they're interviewing me.

That's more than one a day, Tracy.

I know I usually have six to eight a week.

That would do it.

So that's. My range is usually somewhere in there. So it'll be like, it could even be 8 to 10 on a weekend I'm home and then nothing for a week while I'm away. Like, it just does. But the numbers add up. But in doing that, there's a clear distinction and number. And here's what I find that podcasters do over time, when you hit over a hundred episodes and a hundred interviews. Now, maybe not all your episodes are interviews, right? So when you got it. But when you clearly hit over a hundred interviews, you will start to be more discerning. It happens every time. It's the number one thing I hear from everyone with a hundred episodes or more. I've decided to get more specific about the kind of guests I want I reject more than I invite on. This is the common theme. That happens over a hundred. Why not start that sooner if it's gonna happen anyway? And the biggest growth in your show happens to from 25 to 100 episodes. That will be the largest growth curve you will have. You'll have steady growth after that, but the largest growth curve will happen between 25 episodes and 100 episodes. If that's going to happen, then why not start to dial in as early as that? Your criteria. Test your criteria each month. Get a little tighter on it and a little tighter on it and a little tighter on it. Could be a really great growth strategy for you and your shop.

No wonder you don't have time for me to take you to lunch most days. Holy mackerel, Tracy. That's a lot.

End this call and we're gonna. I have an immediate interview with someone from France.

Wow.

Yeah, I'm busy. That's it.

Cool.

Yeah. All right. It did clear my schedule for your birthday. Oh, mostly. I cleared it for lunch. Mostly.

Oh, mostly.

Mostly. Not the whole day, but I cleared it for lunch.

Been married for over 30 years and I don't get a whole day.

You don't get a whole day. Sorry. It's your birthday. Yeah.

So for everyone out there, just really think about this. Podcast swaps are a great part of your guesting strategy. They can be a really effective growth for your listener base, especially when you do a little bit of work. Doesn't have to be a tremendous amount of work. Check the fit on the audience, the fit on the perspective, and the fit on the fact that they're actually going to promote you. And if they're going to do those three things and those three things are a good match, then take the risk. Have them on your show, invite them first. They'll reciprocate. Because if it's a good fit for you, they'll realize really quickly in that interview it's a good fit for them and you don't have to work hard to pitch them at all.

Sounds like some great insight, Tracy, coming from someone with 3,003 interviews and wonderful. Thank you for sharing that perspective. I even learned a few things today. We've been podcasting. Actually, we started podcasting together when we started doing it and I wasn't aware of all those numbers.

That's because you didn't also seek the guests. I did about 90% of that work of the guest seeking over the years in all of our shows. Yeah. So I refined it over time.

You have. Well done. All right, thank you so much for listening everybody. We will be back next time with another great topic. Until then, this has been Tom and Tracy Hazard on feed.

You'd brand heard something valuable today but didn't get a chance to write it down. No worries, we've got you covered. We partnered up with podcasters united.org where podcast hosts like you can get free resources, free masterclasses, the largest podcast tip library assembled and free promotion opportunities. While you're there, don't forget to follow us on YouTube and on social unitedwepod so you can get feed you'd brand live. Until next time, keep podcasting.