How To Create A Podcast Network That Actually Provides Value & Makes Money

Want your podcast and videocast to be seen, heard, found and rewarded. In this noisy digital world, you are not alone. Join the nonprofit community at Podcasters United and podcast industry experts Tom Hazard and Tracy Hazard as they debunk all that outdated and bad advice you've been getting from the podcast gurus and find out what actually works. Today, get ready to Feed. Feed your brand with smart cut tactics proven to cast your original voice to the world.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Feed you'd brand. I'm Tom Hazard, your host, and today we're going to talk about how to create a podcast network that actually provides value and makes money. And when I'm talking about value, of course, at Poditize, we're here for the podcasters first and you as podcasters, what we want to make sure you're well aware of if you're considering joining a podcast network, you're being courted by one pitched to join, one that you really know what you're getting into. So we see a lot of podcast networks that unfortunately take advantage of podcasters, and there's a lot more benefits for the network getting you to join them than there are benefits for you, the podcaster by joining the network. Now, there are certainly some very good and appropriate podcast networks out there. I'm not trying to bash all podcast networks. It's just that we've seen a lot that are not acting in the podcaster's best interest. So this episode will be a little bit of a cautionary tale of what to watch out for. But for those of you podcast network owners or organizers out there, this is going to be valuable for you too, because you can really understand more about what is going to motivate a podcaster to join the network, what is going to keep them in the network long term? You need to be providing value. So let's talk about that to me. And in our experience here at Poditize, a podcast network really has three different parties involved. And a good podcast network needs to be providing value to all three. It needs to be a win, win, win. So if we were to create a diagram of three circles and they cross in the very middle, all three of them, there is a space there where the network can be providing value to the listeners out there. Ultimately, we need listeners, right? We're trying to reach more of them and that will, you know, what value are you providing to the listeners? And then as a network, you need to be providing value to the podcaster. What's in it for them? Why should they join your network? And then obviously, in Order for it to work and be sustainable, the network has to get value out of it, too. So you've got to find the space where all three are benefiting. So I'm going to start with a few, I guess, examples of things that are out of alignment with a win, win, win scenario that I just described. Okay, One of those is, are you, the podcaster, required to pay the network in order to be a part of the network? That should be a big red flag.

If that's the case. In my opinion, the majority of the time when you, the podcast, are required to pay to be a part of a network, that means that the network is looking at you, the podcaster, as a profit center. And there's really no reason to do that if they're operating the network properly and going to monetize it in different ways. Okay, so that's one thing. Why do you need to pay and make sure that you get full disclosure on. On what it is, that fee that you're paying? What is that money used for, and how is that ultimately going to help you? What's the return you're going to get for that investment, and is it worth it? I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of what some networks charge money for and what some of those expenses might be. But in any case, that's a red flag. All right. Now, is the network requiring you to move your podcast hosting to a different hosting platform? Some do, and there are some good reasons why they might do that. Number one, it might be for monetization. Are they using the ad insertion system of that platform to monetize all the shows, and are you sharing in that in an appropriate proportional way? That could be a good reason to change podcast hosts. But make sure you are very clear that you still have control of your own show. Far too many networks get you involved, get you signed up, they move your show and then they technically own it in the eyes of the podcast ecosystem. They have your listing with Apple and Spotify and, you know, all the other apps. And the worst part is they actually control your show, and you're not even able to log in to see your own analytics for your show, your download analytics. And so that is another big red flag. I mean, certainly a network would need access to your show in order to perhaps put ads within it, you know, agreed to that. But if they say, well, it's in our account, and I can't give you access to that because there's all these other shows in the account too, and they can't let you see other people's shows. Another big red flag. A proper podcast host and a proper network can have a way for you to have login access to see your own show, and they can access your show among all the others that they have. So again, something to be concerned about if there's not full disclosure. I mean, I've seen too many podcast networks or people have been on them and podcasters have no idea how many downloads they're getting, how big their audience is, Is it growing, is it shrinking, is it flat because they don't have control of their own show at the podcast host level? Okay, so that's another thing. Also, is the network going to take credit for your show from a branding perspective? Very often you will find the network will put their own network name as the author name of the podcast because remember, they have access and control over your show. If this is, you know, feed your brand, joining a network, and Tom and Tracy Hazard are the hosts of it, our names are in the author field, but we see all the time these networks remove the hosts of the show, their names from the author field and put in the network name as the author. There are also other features of some of the apps, in particular Apple, where a larger owner, a company or a network can actually be designated as the network and your show is a part of that. So anyway, those are things just to be aware of. Look at the network. You know, if this is an existing network, you've got to go and do some homework and look at how they're doing this with other shows. Are they putting their logo on your cover art? Some of them do that. Are they putting the network name as the author name? That's not always in your best interest. I think they're might be a scenario where that would be okay, but generally not recommended and not a good idea. Here's another thing that I often find is that networks will pitch you to join them and say, well, part of the value we're going to provide you is we're going to get you great guests. They're going to do that work for you. I hear that a lot. And unfortunately, even though I hear it a lot, I don't see it actually happen in practice. I hear all too often from the podcaster, yeah, they really didn't get me many guests that were worth much. And you know, that value was never fully realized. So again, be clear, what's in it for you, the podcaster, for joining the network? Another thing is I think you need to think about what's in it for you, A lot of times the podcast network will say, oh, well, we'll monetize your show right away. And like, oh, that's great. Well, what they're looking to do is get as many podcasts into the network as possible and then run programmatic ads on them. Ads, you have no control over who the sponsor is. You are getting a even further reduced fraction of the revenue from that. Because usually programmatic ads, the podcast hosting platform, is taking a cut. Now, your network is taking a cut, and then you get a smaller piece of that pie. And it's usually very small advertising dollars to begin with. Getting more and more shows, including yours, into the network is in the network's best interest because the more shows they have, the more downloads there are, the more money they are going to make. But for you, the podcaster, is the amount of money you're going to make worth the distraction that's going to occur for your listeners to be forced to hear ads, usually at the very beginning of the episode, that are not really relevant at all to what you talk about, your subject matter. Okay, so those are some of the cautionary things that you really need to be careful of. But now I want to sort of flip this and talk about the network itself. What can you, the network or the network manager, organizer, owner, those of you out there listening to this podcast, what can you do to make a network that truly provides that win, win, win value? And I decided to shift now to that perspective because one of the things, the first thing I'm going to talk about is not just value for the network, but also provides value for the listeners. And I don't see this happen enough with most networks. Basically, the network will co brand your show with their network and then, you know, they're hoping people recognize their brand more, start searching on it. If they like some of the shows, hey, I might want to see more shows from that network. That's sort of some of the concept, right? But when it comes to listeners, you know, they're searching for what's in it for them. They're searching for their needs, their interests, their desires, their challenges. When they're searching a podcast app looking for content, or even searching in Google looking for similar content. And when you have a network that is really out to promote itself more than the podcaster, the listener could be subscribed to one of their shows. And you know, it takes a lot of work for the podcaster to go and try to find other shows on that network. Now, there may be links in the description of the episode There may be that episode webpage link that may take people to the network page. This is another thing you need to be aware of if they're going to do that, because many of you podcasters have your own website, and you've heard Tracy and I talk about this for years, that we highly recommend every podcast have their own website, and that's great. When you get into a network, are they going to replace all those episode webpage links with pages that go to the network page? That's probably what they want to do. Is that in your best interest? Probably not. So that's something you need to make sure you understand going in. Is that a requirement or is it an option? Can you still have those links? Go back to your webpage. So sorry for that momentary tangent, but coming back to listeners, a network that really is providing value to listeners, trying to attract more of them, will not only have your show with its own listing that people can subscribe to separately, it will also put out a network feed, a whole actual show listeners can subscribe to, that contain every episode that publishes of every show in the network. And there could be two, three, four, five episodes publishing every day, depending on how many are in the network.

An ideal kind of network would be, you know, has a small number of shows, and there's maybe two or three episodes of different shows publishing every day of the week. And the advantage for the listener is they can subscribe to one network, one show feed, and get your show and get others as well. One of the best examples of this I've seen is a network of podcasts that are about veterans, and for veterans, you know, people have served in our military or armed forces here in the United States. And, you know, a small network of five shows, each one publishes a different day of the week. The listener gets a different show pushed to an episode, rather pushed to them every day on their device. And maybe they listen to all of them and maybe listen to two or three of the five, but they're aware of all of them. And that awareness that makes it easy for listeners to listen to multiple shows in the network, and it expands the listening audience of your show beyond what you get yourself. So that I see is a real win, win for everyone. The listener gets an advantage, the network gets an advantage, gets additional downloads they can monetize through that feed. But you still have your own independent feed, your independent show with its own listeners and its own subscribers, right? So I think a potentially good thing that serves everyone and the difference of monetization that is really going to provide value to the network and the podcast. And there's nothing wrong with monetizing and having ads in your show and in the other shows on the network. Podcast listeners, by a very Large percentage, over 65%, the last data that I have seen is that podcast listeners don't mind hearing ads when the ads are relevant to what the content is that they're listening to. So when it's in alignment, they'll listen to the ads, they'll. They don't mind it. And in fact, when the ads are in alignment with what the content is, they're listening for the value that they're to get by listening to the podcast. They will convert at a very large percentage of the listeners will convert and click on a call to action, especially when the host of the show is inviting them to do so is endorsing whatever the ad is about. So rather than programmatic ads, there's a lot more to be achieved. Being a part of a network with ads that are within each of the shows, cross promoting different shows within the network, but also monetization that is really at a higher dollar value per impression. Or maybe it's more affiliate based, based on people that click through. It's based on conversion. But advertisers will pay more when it's not just a basic national brand. Running an ad at the beginning of an episode, you actually have an ad that maybe is read by the host and it's within the episode. And each podcast in the network has to do that every month. Or they have other ways of, you know, running ads within the episodes, not distracting people in the very beginning of the episode, but running them more in the middle. And actually into the last 25% of an episode, we are seeing all kinds of data and experiencing it that ads that run in, in the latter part of an episode actually get listened to more genuinely like people are, you know, they've listened through your whole episode. They're engaged, they're liking the content, and when you have an ad there, they're actually going to listen to it. Whereas when it's in the very beginning, they're not really paying attention. All right, this isn't the show yet. I got to wait for these ads. Then we get to the good content. We're finding conversion to ads in post roll spots, which to us apologize means anywhere in about the last 20 to 25% of the episode are getting a lot higher conversion. A wise network that's monetizing with different kinds of sponsors, that's not just easier for them with programmatic ads but is doing it in an intentional way getting sponsors uniquely for that network. Like take the Veterans network I was talking about. There's lots of companies like, let's say, USA Insurance, that is actually any insurance company whose, you know, ideal customer profile are either people in the military or their families. And so there's very targeted advertising that the network can charge more for the podcasters can make more for than just normal programmatic advertising. So my point in this is, is the network doing that kind of engagement of getting sponsors for the entire network? Because if you're now considering joining the network, they're monetizing it. You already have some amount of audience that you've grown that's valuable to them to help grow the total number of listeners of all their shows, then that's their value. They continue to get more listens for the network and they're going to help monetize it. That's value for you, and monetize it to a higher dollar amount per play than the typical programmatic ad. So these are kind of the questions you want to ask. But if you are a network organizer, a network manager or network owner, if you're not already doing this and providing that kind of value to the podcaster, why should they join your network? You know, and again, when it comes back to what I talked about earlier, if a network is requiring you, the podcaster, to pay to join the network, you really want to ask, well, why is that? What am I getting for that money? Because there's actually a lot of value my podcast is bringing to your network and you're going to make more money out through monetization, why should I have to pay now? I suppose there is reality of if it's a brand new show and it doesn't have an audience yet, and the audience is going to grow faster because you're part of a network that has a lot of other established shows that could be value for you. And maybe you do have to pay something to get set up and, and into that program. But is there a sunset to that payment? Once it's monetized and the network's making more money on your show, you shouldn't have to pay anymore. So these are some of the kinds of things, including, you know, the website presence is really important. But ask the network, hey, let's just be honest with each other. And for you, the network organizer, you should be honest with the podcaster. Here's the value we're providing you. Here's the good reasons why you should join our network. We're going to monetize the show or you're not going to have to pay for hosting anymore. Or we're not only going to monetize the audio show, but we're also going to organize the videos of everybody involved. And, you know, There's a shared YouTube channel that's going to make money and that's being shared amongst all the people. You know, there are many, many potential advantages and maybe they're going to actually putting dollars into marketing the network outside of the podcast ecosystem to get everybody more listeners. Okay, there's value there too, but what is the value? Gotta know what you're getting into from the start. Make sure it is that win, win, win between the listeners, the podcaster, you, or the network organizer. And if it's really out of alignment with a real harmony between those three parties, I would run the other direction very, very fast and not join a network. I've seen too many problems, let's say. Again, I'll come back to cautionary tales just to provide a little more value before I end this episode, but there's a lot of Internet radio networks out there who are, in my opinion, preying on podcasters because they're generating new content and they want new content to keep their Internet radio network fresh. They often will offer to, oh well, we'll turn it into a podcast also. I see a lot of people a podcast this way and they just don't realize how very little value that they're going to get out of that. Because while the Internet radio network will put your show out as a podcast, they generally don't do a very good job at it. They're not experts in it. And it's not, you're not going to grow your podcast effectively because you're not in control of it. And it's not really their primary interest. Their primary interest is to provide more content that people are going to go to their website, their Internet radio site, and that's what they want people to consume your content there. But in the real world of podcasting, that's not how podcasters listen, not how most of them do.

Most podcasters want to listen on their mobile device, their mobile phone, their mobile watch, or, you know, obviously through those when they're driving or at the gym. You know, we're seeing a lot of listenership these days on smart watches. It's been an increasing trend the last couple years. So I think they're really kind of old school, even though the world of radio, Internet radio, is decidedly more modern than old school terrestrial radio. But they're really different animals. And you definitely need to know what you're getting into, especially in those radio contracts, some of them, you don't own your show. And again, I have more people like have no idea how many listeners they have. The radio network will always say, oh, well, we have millions of listeners. Well, they probably have millions of people that have listened at one time or another. But what do they have on a monthly recurring basis? And what is each show getting in terms of listenership? And they usually don't provide the kind of information because the numbers are not setting the world on fire. And again, they're looking for more content to help make their network more valuable. They want to use your content to help them rather than be truly mutually beneficial in a collaborative and cooperative way. Bringing shows together with common or complementary subject matters and topics for the benefit of the listener. Also an inherent benefit for the sponsor, because all those shows, you know, they'll get sponsors that are in alignment with all those shows. And you're not advertising Dawn Dish Soap on the front of your podcast. And you know, unless I guess it's a podcast about washing dishes, which I don't think there are any, quite honestly, I don't know how that's in alignment with what you talk about in those kind of large national brand campaigns are paying very, very little for programmatic ads only. So more targeted ad advertisers to more targeted topics means higher rates, the advertisers pay. Then there's more money in it for everybody and you get some mutually beneficial reality. And then you know the tricky part of the website, you can monetize web traffic, but there's going to be this tension between your own website for your brand and your show and the website for the network. And if you can strike away that's mutually beneficial, that that's great, it can probably help you get more exposure too. But it's all about win, win, win. You gotta just go with your eyes open. And so my recommendation for the podcast networks out there is to continue to find ways to move the value you're providing in the direction of being in that sweet spot of, yes, you need value, otherwise you can't run your network providing value for the listeners so that there's a good reason why they're gonna listen to the network shows or more of the network shows, or have an easier way to be aware of all the episodes publishing of all shows on the network. And then obviously the podcaster got to be some good reasons why they would join it. And you better have really good reasons why the podcaster needs to pay to be a part of your network, if that's part of the deal. I feel the networks with mark integrity don't do that. And they're seeking podcasts to join that are a fit and providing them value for coming on and being part of it. So there you go. That's, you know, my thoughts about podcast networks that actually provide value. When you think about it, it's pretty much common sense. If you ask the question, what's in it for me as a podcaster? And what's how is it also benefiting my listeners? And then for the network, if you ask yourselves, okay, how am I providing value to the podcaster to give them real value and get them to join and then how am I making money too? And we all have to keep the listeners in mind. If you just keep all of them in mind, figure out the harmony there, that will work, then that's a network worth being a part of and worth existing in our industry here. So that's podcast network value according to Feed your brand for today. You can find the blog post for this episode@podcastersunited.org as usual, reach out to us anywhere on social media and or@poditize.com also if you have some questions. But we will be back next week, hopefully with Tracy back from her jury duty experience. Hopefully next week. Until then, everybody have a good one and we'll see you next time.

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