How To Know When It Is Time To Change Course from the On the Shelf Podcast with Timothy Bush

Foreigners.

Welcome to on the Shelf, a program that is dedicated to helping you get your products into a major big box retailer. Tim here with you as always, hoping that you're having a great week and things are going well for you. Guess what? The band is all back together for flash topic 8 and I can't wait for you to get in on the discussion. Not all the usual suspects are back though. Tracy Hazard is back, Joe Tarnowski is back, and Jamie Robinson is back. But we have a new addition filling in which is Tracy's husband, Tom Hazard. And he adds a tremendous amount of information and experience and expertise to the Flash topic call. I know you're wanting to know what the topic is and I'm not going to tell you. Instead, I'm going to let you listen in. So let's get right into it. Hey, welcome everybody back to Flash topic number eight. Super glad to have you with us. We are missing a couple people today and we have added somebody. So let's roll around some introductions. First of all, I'll tell you who's not here. So Bill Carmody is not here and so there won't be any back and forth with him and Tracy today. Also, Tsalakalov is not here. He's traveling internationally. Really the entire month of June and July, so he hasn't been around. But we do have Tom Hazard with us. Welcome, Tom.

Thanks so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. So Tom, for the listener's sake, obviously you have the same last name as Traci. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you and who you are and how you kind of fit into, has designs and what's going on there.

Okay, well, I'm an industrial designer. For those of you that may not know, it's a degree from an art school. It's not an engineering type of degree, although it's very closely related to engineering. And I've been a product designer and developer and I do do light engineering for my whole career, which is scary now more than 25 years. So let's see. Yeah, I met Tracy in college and art school and we've been working together one way or another ever since. And in our design firm, Tracy does a little more of the, I, I guess sort of visionary and research side of things and setting some of the direction where the market opportunities are, things like that. And then we both work on the concept for what the designs might be and then I do a little bit more of the execution and follow through of, you know, once we come up with a concept. Here's what we want to do. I'm the one that's actually going to do more of the actual. Making the decisions on how something's going to be made or work and actually creating the CAD files, the data to get things made. We're consulting together all along the way, but we have a unique, I would say, complimentary skills, and enough that cross over in the sort of brain trust to make the best products. So, in a nutshell, that's awesome. That's it.

So let me ask you this. So if your company is the Rolling Stones, who is Tracy and who are you?

Wow.

Good question. I would think. I don't know the Stones as well as the Beatles. Can I switch to the Beatles?

Yeah. Well, let's switch to the Beatles, then.

All right. I'd say she's John and I'm Paul. Maybe that would be she's dead and you're. Well, no, not from that perspective.

Thanks, Tom.

Yeah, that wasn't what I meant. But it's interesting. I mean, I think that it's an interesting example because they were truly partners and wrote music together, but they had also different particular talents and even interests somewhat.

And I'm not at all disagreeing with that one. I think that's actually pretty accurate. Although. Yeah, I'm dead.

Well, I was way more interested on whether you were gonna be Keith and she was gonna be Mick.

But anyway, I don't know Keith and Mick as well.

Yeah. Also, I'm the front girl usually. That's why you guys hear from me. Right. So it's a little combination of being the girl out front, the voice and active member. Cause I do speak all over the place for HAS design. It is a visionary of how we write and how we design and how we work behind the scenes.

But I also do think it's interesting that there was kind of this power struggle, I think, between John and Paul. And John, I think, definitely when he was alive and the Beatles were real, was definitely the frontman considered the leader of the band. But I think Paul did a lot of the writing behind the scenes. Right. There are probably as many ways you could shoot down this analogy as you could adopt it.

But there would be no HAS design without both of us. This is what we've discovered over the time. Not one of us can take it on without the other. And so that's why we're really careful about what projects we take, because we're so busy.

Right.

Well, there's no question that Paul had his own thing. Right. Anyway, I thought that would be a fun analogy. And I like your answer. And so for those of you, let's just round out. Of course, Joe Tarnowski is back. Joe, how's it going?

Very good, thanks. I can't believe this is number eight already.

I know it kind of seems like eight's a lot, and then it kind of seems like eight's not a lot. Decide whether this is a lot or not, but I have been seeing a lot of your face in video on LinkedIn recently. It seems to me like you discovered that people want to hear you say stuff. Yes.

Actually, it's funny because there are a couple of reasons why I started doing that. As you know, LinkedIn is relatively new to native video in the past. I think it was only a year ago where LinkedIn started letting you actually upload video to the platform as opposed to, you know, like putting a YouTube link. And because of that, they're trying to catch up. So I found out that they actually share native videos with more of your network. Actually, I attribute some of this to you because I've been mostly behind the scenes in my marketing efforts and. And putting out content, but not myself. But having done the podcasts with you and having fun with that kind of made me want to take it that next step and start putting myself out there and encouraging our teams to put themselves out there. So part of the reason was for that people really like hearing opinions and thoughts. So part of it was for that, and then part of it was also to kind of put myself out there. So it'll encourage the rest of our team members to put themselves out there in that way as well, so that they become the faces of their individual categories. And they're starting to do that. And the results have been great. I mean, the amount of views and responses from the videos in that format, those quick little hits, is a lot more than other types of posts. And so our category members, teammates who are doing that as well, are getting a lot of results, a lot of feedback, a lot of leads coming in when they do it. And it's been fun, too. I'm not sure if you guys saw the one that I did wearing the men's facial mask.

I missed that one. How'd I miss that one? I'm going on LinkedIn right now.

You have to check it out. We have a personal care session coming up, and a big component of it is men's grooming, and men's grooming is blowing up in the category. So I found one of our customers gave me some men's Face masks. And I was like, you know what? I just couldn't resist. And something simple like that. I got a tremendous number of views from it, a lot of engagement. So that's just encouraged me to do more. And it turns out that it's not just things when I talk about the category, but they in particular, some people told me they especially liked when I talk about things that may not be directly related to the category, but helpful. So, for example, I did one piece based on fishing and how quiet downtime can help you with creative breakthroughs. Or I did an analogy with Alexander Hamilton after I saw the play, and content marketing and how he really was the country's first big content marketer. So I've been having fun with that, and the more I do it, the more ideas pop into my head. So it's been a lot of fun.

That's awesome, Joe, and well done for taking one for the team and having it work out so well. I know that the rest of the teams have been coming along slowly, but I definitely enjoy hearing your commentary, and it makes you want to click the link for some reason. And after you're done with your pitch, you just have to click the link. Oh, good, good.

Because that's the goal.

Jamie, how are you doing?

I'm doing well.

How are you?

I'm good. What's new with you?

Oh, well, I just moved my entire life and family, and that is the worst ever, especially when you're doing it in the thick months of June and May in Florida. So, yeah, that's fun. And rain. Yes, it's been a lot of rain, so just trying to get back on track, but everything's going well.

It's hard. I mean, we're getting ready to move ourselves on the 18th, so it will be just a little bit hotter, a little bit wetter, and that should be super fun. And two days after we move, I travel for, like, seven straight days. So, of course, my wife is very excited about that.

Thrilled at the timing, I'm sure.

Exactly. Exactly. All right, guys, so our topic today is a hard topic. The reason I'm bringing it up. So I'll tell you what the topic is, and then I'll tell you why I decided to talk about it. The topic is, when is it time to change course? And changing course can mean a lot of different things, but you hear, so off course, stay the course, never quit, don't quit. And then you read books like Five Feet from Gold, and you think about J.K. rowlings, who got turned down seven times on Harry Potter. Before she struck it rich. And you think that if you want to change course or actually abandon a project that you don't believe in yourself, and people are trying to tell you what they think, but whose opinion do you really trust? It's kind of like a bad stock, and you're just trying to figure out, when do I get out? Or when should I get out? Or getting out is not going to make me my money back. Should I stay in for the long haul? And so I'm interested to know when you guys think that it's time to change course. And like I said, a course change could be a complete redesign, or a course change could be an abandonment of a product or project, or it could simply be just changing course in how you're marketing it or what you're doing. So, like I said, it's a little bit of a scary topic because, I don't know, it just feels like sometimes when you want to change, it's like you are. Like you're giving up. And so I'm interested to know what you think we're going to let the new guy start. So, Tom, Tom, I'm going to throw it over to you and let me know just what comes in your mind first about abandoning your project or changing course or trying something new or stopping what you're doing. What are your thoughts?

Wow, that's actually a great subject for us to talk about, because Tracy and I have been in this quandary ourselves in our own businesses for the last two years, and we have also gotten all the same kind of counsel that you read about in Napoleon Hill's books and at all the business networking conferences where everybody says, stay focused, do one thing, get it done, finish it before you move on to the next thing. And I don't know that I'm quite wired that way. I hear that. I understand it. I see that that may make a lot of sense. Maybe it's because Tracy and I work together and we're two people that are co owners of our business and now actually two different actual corporations because we spun one off, because we didn't do what Napoleon Hill would suggest. We didn't stay focused on one thing and take it all away, because we've been podcasting for many years and we set up a team to do that. So it didn't take over our day jobs. I mean, our daily work we're trying to do every day. Other people in business said, hey, can you do that for me? Can you do that for me? And it got to the point where we're like, wow, that's a business opportunity in and of itself. And Tracy and I wrestled with that. I'm like, yeah, I think we ought to do it. Podcasting's growing. It's a big market, but it was.

Really an about face, right? I mean, it's like a totally different shift and business. So I'm going to just interject here, because what we usually do recommend to people are small, small changes, right? Small pivots. That's what design is about, right? You keep tinkering with things till you get it just right for the marketplace, but you don't make radical change to everything, because when you make radical change to everything, you have to start everything all over again in your process. So it's more costly, it's more time. So we recommend abandoning quicker, more often than we do a complete radical change of something. Because small pivots, 1% change can have a magnified effect later thinking about it, like a trajectory. So it can have a magnified effect later.

Let me draw it down a little bit more for you guys and, Tom, we'll use your example as an example. So let's say I'm not talking about identifying a business opportunity and then turning towards it and driving towards that. I'm actually talking more like you've identified that business opportunity. You turn towards it and you're driving towards it, and it's not working. It's not developing like you thought it would develop, and you still know it's a great idea. The indicators are all still there. And the reason that this came up, and maybe I should have backed up a little bit, but I have people, and I know that you guys talk to them, too. People that are just holding on to projects or products, and they need to let go.

Okay.

Or they need to change course. And so I'm trying to figure out through our group what the indicators are, and if together we can't come up with some really good advice for these people as to when to just say, like I said, a bad stock. When should you sell it and just be done? Yeah. So with that kind of caveat on it.

Okay.

Throw it back to you.

Okay. So we do see this a lot, especially with inventors. And we tend to attract inventors. Maybe it's because we are inventors, I don't know. But we tend to attract them, sometimes more than we'd like to, but they often. And I have to say I was guilty of this early in my education and career as well. I fall in love with my own idea. And I think a Lot of inventors fall into that category that they think their idea is the best thing ever because they birthed it. And there's something about that that makes them think that no one else has thought of it before. It's the best thing. And, oh, my gosh, I'm going to make tons of money and I need to pour everything into this at all costs to make it happen.

And also, just to interject here, they also get that reinforcement from the environment around them about how amazing the idea is because people love them.

Well, yeah, that's usually the friends and family factor, which is very dangerous. Either their friends and family say, wow, that's amazing, because they are really impressed because, I mean, let's face it, I think the average person in this world, there's so much stuck in their lane of life, they don't stray outside of it and think, well, yeah, I can create something or I can take the initiative and make something happen. And so when they see someone else do it, they're really legitimately impressed by that. And I think that that can give an inventor or an entrepreneur a false sense that they've actually got something unique and that's going to win. Your family is always going to tell you either they love it because they love you and they want to give you positive reinforcement, or they're going to tell you it is the worst idea in the world. Don't ever do it because they're afraid you're going to go bankrupt chasing this idea. So friends and family is never a good way to get feedback. So you do need perspective. And this is, I guess, the first piece of advice I would give anybody who is trying to decide maybe it's a unrealistic piece of advice because they're so stuck in their world, they may not see it. But the thing is, get perspective. Outside influence, from outside your friend and family circle, outside of your current business circle. Get other perspectives because you have blinders. You don't realize it, but your perspective is clouded. The old cliche, you can't see the forest for the trees, that is the reality of it. How do you know? I mean, I don't know that you can know. I wish back 25 years ago, in one of our first businesses, we had a business that was based on a single invention, and we went and patented it. We did it, get the patent. We manufactured the product initially in the United States and then went to China to do it as we needed to and built a whole company around this one patent, which became several products. But we were, I think, guilty Of a lot of this issue of being stuck in our world. And I wish we had known at the time. They always say you don't know what you don't know. I wish we had known there were communities of other business people, conferences, organizations that can help educate us in the realities of business, that we could go out and get some counsel and perspective. And had we done that, I mean, I think we were pretty successful for what we did. It could have been a whole lot more successful had we educated ourselves in different ways. So I guess my best advice is get some outside perspective and help and counsel and just. You've got to not be so arrogant that you think you know everything. That's the biggest problem. I think that gets in the way of people having clarity and good direction on where to go, whether to stay with it or abandon it. Like you were saying.

Yeah, so you're saying that. So let's say things are going horribly, but you go out, you reach out and you get some outside influence. And all indicators are that it's still a viable project, it's still a good product. It's just taking some time that would give that person the confidence to keep going, is what you're saying. Or vice versa.

I'm going to caveat that and say it depends on the perspective. Right. So if the perspective is that the consumer, whoever's going to buy this, and so even if it's business to business. Right. Whoever is the person that's going to buy it, wants it. Okay. If you hear that, if that's the reinforcing message is that it is desired in the marketplace, then you keep pushing forward. So three feet from gold actually gives me anxiety. I can't stand the book. Can't stand that chapter. I don't like the other book that's all about it because it drives me crazy that he never went to get an expert who knew anything about how gold runs in veins, how to mine gold. He didn't get an expert. Drives me absolutely insane that he wasted all that time and then gave up because of that. So I recommend getting an expert advice. Yes. But I also recommend getting that expert advice in a place at which you're getting consumer desire feedback. Because if you're getting desired feedback that this is wanted, then you should keep pushing through. Sara Blakely went to, the story goes, hundreds, I don't know, it's probably magnified from actually how many she saw, but hundreds of banks and investors and other things, and they all turned her down for Spanx pantyhose with the feet Cut off because that's what they were at that time. And tight. Hold you in and squeeze everything.

She got turned down, but all of them were men. And every woman she talked to and every person she met on the other side of it said, I want that. Where can I get it? So she was listening to the right core people to keep going and whereas everyone else was telling her no and she should quit. Right. So it's what indicators you listen to. And if they are consumer desire, then move forward and move as fast as possible to keep getting that momentum going and keep checking that.

Got it.

I've got another brief example that might be helpful is that back in our first experience in business, we invented a product that was a accessory for the handheld computers. You remember the Palm Pilots. That was a big thing in the late 90s. Sure. And we embarked on building a business from scratch to sell an accessory to that to consumers. It was to end consumers and it was a growing market. Everybody thought it was the biggest thing in the world. That of course ended up fizzling shortly and early in the new century. But it was a very difficult thing to do to try and build a company around selling a single accessory one at a time to individual consumers. But at the time we thought that was the big market. And what Tracy's saying is in terms of going out and making sure the market wants to buy your product, I agree with that. But I don't think we could have done it in that situation because what ended up happening is we got very lucky and a market found us. And it wasn't a business to consumer market, it was a business to business market. And it found us because all these companies kept saying, wow, this is a great product. Can you print my logo on it? And can I buy thousands of them to give away to trade show? Oh, sure, I can do that. And we ended up pivoting the business and building the entire business around that market that was the lion's share of our business. Became a seven figure company, didn't get to eight figures, but it became a seven figure company doing just that. And the business to consumer side of it was maybe 5 or 10% of our business in the long run. So I think we got lucky. So we could not have predicted that. But the point is you can't always go and do that research and know either. So I don't really know what conclusion to draw from that. Tracy, what do you think?

Yeah, I think you just messed me up. Well, the reality is you messed up my advice.

Well, no, but the reality is how do you know whether to go forward? I mean, you could get lucky and there is another opportunity, but I think that that's.

I think luck is rare.

I agree. It is rare. And luck is not a plan.

Yeah, well, let's think about it. Like, let's think about this. And Jamie, I'm going to get your take on this here in a second. Remember, though, what we're trying to end up with is some key things that we can give out to people that might be struggling with a product that's not doing well and wondering whether they're going to throw in the towel or not. So what we're trying to boil it down to is do this, don't do that. This has worked for me in the past. This hasn't worked for me in the past. And, Jamie, you and I have been with multiple people that have thrown in the towel or stopped using services or changed their mind. So how would you know it's time to change course, in your opinion?

Well, when you first put the subject on the line this morning, actually, my first mind is. And that's what flash topics do. They. You do this this way so that it's like, idiot. We don't really have a lot of time to think about it. But my first response to that was, I spend a lot of time in marketing, and with all of the tools out there these days, I have a lot of information that I can go to or I can reflect upon and say, okay, this is working, or this is not working. So I don't make a lot of, I guess, uneducated guesses. But I will say that there's a lot of times where I say my gut is telling me this or my gut feels like this. Especially when it comes to product and a certain type of consumer, the analytics are not always going to reflect what your gut is thinking. Well, what my gut is thinking and the gut is a lot on experience and knowledge and all of the other fun stuff that goes with being in business for a while. I recently attended a seminar and I was a little taken aback because I felt like people were taking advantage of the people who were attending this seminar who may not. Well, they were a little ignorant and the approach that they were taking and they were asking for a substantial amount of money to have them come back to another seminar for information that was readily available online. And so there's people out there who will take advantage of your ignorance. So I think that is another situation that people have to take into consideration when it's time to throw in the towel. Or who they're asking for help from, or who they're asking for counsel from. Because people will take your money and sometimes they'll give you good information, and sometimes they won't.

That's so good that you say that, Jamie, because it frustrates me, too.

I feel like there's just a lot of. Because when you all were speaking, when you were talking about it, and Tracy, you were saying that they should go and they should get information, they should get help, they should seek professionals who can actually counsel them and tell them yay or nay. But I think that the best source for that is consumers. If you have a product that no one wants to buy, no one is going to buy it, and you're not going to be successful. No matter how beautiful you think your baby is, no matter how great the process was when you were inventing this product, if no one wants it, no one is going to buy it. So if you don't have that consumer support, then you're going to fail. It's simple as that. I think that is your best resource for deciding if or not it's time to throw in the towel. Consumers and their response.

Okay, David Oreck used to tell me all the time, because we were tight, right? Of course, he would always say, if you want to put an advertisement out there and you want to know whether it works, he said, go as far as you can, give away as much as you can, do it as big as you can afford, and see if it works. If it doesn't work, then you'll know that it doesn't work, period. But if it does work, he said, then you can start to pull back a little bit at a time to see where the threshold is. But he goes, if you never do everything that you could have done, then you're never. And it fails. You're always going to ask yourself, well, geez, if I would have added this or if I would have gone big here, if I would have given this away, you're going to be left with all these questions. So kind of to your point, when you're putting it out there, I think one of the things that people can ask themselves is when things are bad, did I do everything that I could have? And here's a good example. And Joe, I think this is going to lead right into you. But I have a lot of clients that never go to a trade show because they think they can't afford it. And so when things are slow or things aren't kicking off as fast as they could, my recommendation is always hey, go to a ECRM session or go to a trade show, put yourself in front of a large number of people to see what the response is. A lot of times they don't want to do that because they don't want that expense in that way. I'm saying you're actually part of the cause of your own issue if you're not doing everything that you can. And we should all make it very clear, you can't build a product, order a container, and then put it online and not do anything with it. And then when it doesn't sell, wonder what's happening.

Right. Do you guys agree with that?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

This is not a build it and they will come world.

We're not Kevin Costner people. We're not Kevin Costner. We're not building a baseball field. Joe, what do you think about that?

So, a couple. Well, a couple of ideas. I know everybody on the panel seems to cover the grounds as far as external feedback. And I think also there's an internal component as well, and there's a macro way of looking at it and a micro. But when you thinking in terms of, okay, I'm an entrepreneur, I got this product, I'm really putting everything into it. I think one thing that they should also listen to, including in addition to all of the external feedback that we've been talking about, is when your passion dies for it. If you no longer feel that spark, that fire, then one, you're not going to have the energy and the grit to kind of stick it out and look for those opportunities to make it work. And it's just, I'm a big believer and you need to, like Simon Sinek wrote, and start with why you need to find that reason for being. What is your reason? What is your thing? And follow along those lines. And if what you thought was your reason for being is no longer the case, then it's time to find something else. But on the other hand, if you do have that set, why you always find a way or find that opportunity or make that opportunity. I could use myself as an example. My why is content. I love creating content and connecting people through content. It's something I've done my entire life. The first part of my career as a journalist, as a trade media journalist for 24 years, and I loved it. And I bounced around doing a lot of different things within that time, but it always focused around that content portion. So even when I wasn't happy at a particular job, I still managed to find another thing to do within that realm. Because content is what I was passionate about. And then ecrm, we're switching from journalism to content marketing. It was a whole new world. There's. You have that. That doubt or that, oh, can I really step up and do this? It's a little bit different, but basically it's still about content. So those opportunities will come as long as you have that passion, that fire for your product or your. What are you looking to do? So in addition to all of that external feedback, what the customers are saying, the sales and all that, I think internally it's really important to still have that passion and that fire for what you're doing. Otherwise, when that flame dies, it's time to look for something else. We'll find that other thing you're going to be passionate about.

So you're saying when you're no longer. When your fire goes out, that's a huge indicator that you might want to pivot or make a change or do something different?

Absolutely. Just myself, I've never worked anywhere. I've done anything that I didn't truly enjoy.

I find sometimes people don't realize that the fire has gone out there. They're kind of in denial that it's gotten past.

Yeah, that takes a lot of introspection. But you're right, Joe. You're so right about that, though. You can see it happening because they procrastinate more. Like, that's how I think it manifests itself.

Or like those things that Tim just mentioned, they don't look for those other ideas or step out of their comfort zone and try something new that might revive their business or pivot into another area. They're not going to be open to newer opportunities, that maybe it's something completely different or maybe it's just a little slight pivot into a new area. But if they're not really passionate about the business, they're going to shut themselves off in being receptive to those opportunities.

I agree with that. I think it's a very.

So, Tom, you were. So you were saying, though, tomorrow, you think sometimes it's hard to. Because a loss of passion happens over a period of time. Right. You don't just wake up today and you had tremendous passion yesterday. And today your passion is in the toilet. It happens over a course of time. So you're saying that people might not even recognize that loss of passion.

Yeah, I agree. I think that for a lot of people, not for everybody, but for a lot of people.

And I'm laughing because Tom's really one.

Of those.

Self reflection is not a really good Strong skill. And so even just understanding that you're at that point and you've lost that passion. I mean, the hardest thing for people is having a mirror put up in front of them and seeing what they didn't realize there. What do you mean? I'm not passionate about it? Of course I am. Well, no, you're really not, because you're spending more time doing other things because maybe you're not having as much success as you expected to. And doing the same thing over and over isn't working, but you're not trying new things. I mean, there could be many symptoms that show this, but I find myself that Tracy and I always say that she hits me over the head with a hammer now and again when I'm not really seeing things like that. And I think over the years I've gotten better at self reflection, but it's still not my strength.

Yeah, we'll let Tracy answer that.

That's why he has a partner. Because sometimes you need a partner to be looking in those blind spots. You can't.

Yeah, I think one guideline you mentioned, it's hard to find out whether you're losing that passion or not. I think one simple guideline is on Monday morning, do you look forward to jumping out of bed and getting going or do you wish the weekend lasted a little bit longer?

Well, I think that when I look at it, and I didn't even give myself that long to really think about this, I've been super busy. I whittled down to this topic this morning. So here's my two things. And it kind of ties, I think, a lot into what you guys have all been saying. But I think in order to first know if you're going to have success or could have success, or success is possibly in the future for you, you have to have a plan, an executable plan. And that plan has to be diverse. So you have to be working it from a multitude of different angles. And so part of that might be trade show, part of it might be social media, part of it might be Amazon, part of it might be big box retail. So you have a diverse way that you're attacking this problem, so to speak. And I think that to Tom's point or to Joe's point about passion, if you're unable to to self reflect and find out whether your passion is gone or not, yeah, I think that you can say, are you pumped to get up in the morning? But actually more analytically, are you still executing on your plan or has over time the execution of your Plan stopped or dwindled or you're only executing in one direction instead of multiple directions anymore. To me that's a huge indicator. When I have a client that all of a sudden starts pulling in the multiple areas and is focusing on one area, I know that they're in trouble. I know that they're no longer executing from a place of strength. Most likely there's some fear going on. And so when people get fearful, they start to pull, pull things close and they get.

They contract. That's the word that I use.

Yeah, that's a great word. They contract and like I said, they're no longer firing on all pistons, they're just firing on one piston and the car's not going anywhere. So my advice to big boxers out there, if things are slowing down or you're wondering whether you should pivot or you're wondering whether you should go this direction, that is go back to your original plan. If you made one, if you didn't make one, shame on you. Start making a plan. But if you made a plan, go back to that and see are you executing on all the original things that you said you were going to do. And if you've narrowed it down to just one area and you need to start branching out again or re executing on your plans, for instance. Tom, if you're not good at self reflection, I have a feeling though that you're good at making an executable plan. I mean, we don't know each other that well, but working with you, I have a feeling you can tell me if I'm wrong about that.

Oh no, we believe in plans here.

We believe in plans. Go ahead.

Analytically, you would be able to take a look and say, am I still executing on my plan? And if not, why not?

And honestly, we feel that some of the best plans have gates and points within them where you review. And if you haven't met all the criteria, that then says, okay, you should go forward. Then you take a step or two back, you revisit the issues that are not matching the plan pivot course correct. And only move forward after you've achieved the these milestones or these indicators have been presented themselves.

I mean, these are based on long term product development processes that major corporations use to create and keep innovation going. Right. So how do you decide when they're spending millions of dollars on innovation, do they keep going? Right. Because it's easy to spend more money. In your example of pistons and everything, I always think that there are also the opposite of that. Which companies with a lot of money tend to do this shotgun approach where when things go wrong, they throw everything they have at it and then they have no idea because it was so random that they have no idea what actually worked to duplicate it again. Right? Yeah, you see that too.

It happens.

And so having a plan makes it so that you have to evaluate and you have to sit back and you have to have this gate that says, if I don't know why all those things I threw out at work, I better figure out which one did and then move forward. And so for us, we also treat it as a go, no go point.

That's interesting. Now we're narrowing down on some real advice now. So big boxers, does your plan multifaceted and does it have gates that you have to actually accomplish before you can pass through? Because Jamie and I have seen, and I'm sure Jamie will speak to this, especially in the world of social media and marketing. Let's just throw dollars at it. You want to get followers. Let's just throw dollars at it. You want to get, you know, you want to grow your brand, just throw dollars at it. And they're not always the right dollars or in the right way. What do you think about that, Jamie?

Absolutely. Money, contrary to popular belief, I guess, doesn't solve everything. And in the social world, what's most effective in thinking for consumers? Consumer based products. A person is better than a robot. Me speaking face to face or person to person to someone is far better than some app trying to do the same thing. It's not authentic and it communicates to the consumer that you don't care enough to have that conversation. And so therefore I'm just going to keep it moving. And you know what? Your brand stops and I'm never going to buy anything from you and I'm going to tell my friends. So it just kind of deteriorates it when you could have just been authentic from the beginning and did it correctly. So it's very, very frustrating for people in our position. I wish that people would just operate on their first mind and do it the way that they think it should be done. Not necessarily traditionally, but authentically. That's my favorite word. Instead of trying to do all these new bells and whistles that this app or that app or this platform is trying to push towards us to be the new and improved version of something that's not necessarily broken.

Feature creep.

Right. Well, this is exactly when we were talking about what experts. Right. So it frustrates me that people don't get the right experts. Right. We were Talking about three free from gold. Obviously you wanted to get someone, he should have gotten someone who knew just the direction that gold veins run. Like, how silly is that? Oh, gold runs in a vein. I don't know any information. They didn't seek out any kind of information from any expert. And you're right, Jamie, that so many of them take advantage of your ignorance and then they sell you something. But for me, if they're not giving you the advice you need and the expertise you need, and if it's not available in a free format, then they're not the person who should be giving it to you. So, for instance, Tom and I, we were talking about this plan, right? We operate our plan, we give it away to everyone, because if they're not going to follow it, they're not going to be good clients. So we don't make them pay. And then we give them the plan. We give them the plan first. And so it's a part of the point is like, you're going to follow this because we know this works. It's worked 250 times in the last eight years successfully. So it's still working today, even though its basis was 25 years ago. So it's based in really great product development principles. It's going to get you to market, it's going to get you to spend the least amount of money, and it's going to get you there the fastest with the best chance for success. And we know that. And if you're not willing to operate on that, then you're not going to be a good client for us, and we're not going to be able to accelerate you. So here it is. Take it. Right? And that's what we really think. I really think that the expertise that's out there that is being given away, Joe, is giving away tons of it free on LinkedIn. I mean, tons of it. If it's not coming to you in that kind of way or coming coming to you in a really reasonable group, I mean, there's groups that you pay fees for. I just started one, right? So there's groups that you pay fees for because there's admin costs. But if that group is a bunch of people just like you who don't know what they're doing, then get out of it. And if that group is all about selling you something, then get out of it and find yourself a safer place to be, a safer place to broaden and learn, because that's what you need to do.

I have a question specifically about that. Tracy is how do you know what you don't know? Say you're in a group and it's with a bunch of people that really don't know. And this is based on this recent seminar I was just speaking about. I knew being in that room that most of the people who were attending didn't know the information that the gentleman was presenting. But I also knew that the information that he was presenting was readily accessible with a couple keystrokes in Google and for free. And I wanted to. It took everything I had not to jump and be like, don't give this man $2,000. I promise you. Just go home and get online. Of course, I couldn't do that. That would not have been right. But how do you know what you don't know?

So I have been conditioned from practical birth by my father. And I love that he has put this practice into me. And it is what I try to get other people to do. And they don't. They don't. Because the first thing that pops in front of them, they tend to do. But my practice is absolutely Google everything, right? Absolutely. Go out there and search. There's a book for something I'm going to pop on my Amazon Kindle and I'm going to look for it. And even if I don't actually read it, I'm going to know that it's there. So that's the first thing that I always do. It's my number one thing that I do when somebody contacts me and says I have a great idea is I first Google what you say, because I'm going to check it out. Because you think you're the only one, but I guarantee you you're not.

Yeah, that's true.

Right. And so I do that, and it happens all the time. Like, we've had that happen to people and they're like, now that you open up my eyes, I see there's 20 of these on the market. And I'd be like, yeah, I know. However, I still think you have a seed of amazement that could really sing. And here's why. So it doesn't mean, for me, it's not an indicator. Just because it's out there doesn't mean that there's not brilliance in whatever someone is selling or whatever idea they have. It now has a context in is it really different and could it really work now? It gives you a framework. What my dad had taught me was that you read at least three things or you research at least three disparate things before you make a decision about buying something, doing something or accepting that as word. And so because that way you have at least your mental capacity has been broadened enough for you to be skeptical by having done that, by having read three perspectives or viewed three perspectives, if it's videos or whatever that might be, it's force a skepticism into your consciousness. And so it will make you sit back and go, do I really think I could do this for $1,000? Is it worth. There are some things that are actually. Because if in the end of the day you're not getting advice for $2,000, but if someone's actually doing something and saving you time for $2,000, you might want to take them up on it. But you will have made that decision for the right reasons, not because someone was selling you.

There you go, 100%.

Yeah, I'm a big fan too of research, getting all of the different angles that you can. But I mean, obviously I've built most of my career on research as a reporter, but that's just the way my mind works. If I want to learn something, I read as much as I can on it and I talk to as many people who have knowledge about it and get as many different opinions and viewpoints as possible. And then this way you get enough exposure, like you mentioned, then you can make an informed decision as to which direction to go.

I just want to say that to Jamie's point about that, sort of like the automation and the bots and the things that are out there and the tools. The thing is, I completely agree with you, Jamie, that if it's not working on organic level, if it's already not getting good feedback, already not converting on a like one to one basis, or I'm sending my messages via LinkedIn and no one's responding and I'm doing it personally, no bot is going to make that better. And there's a scale for things because you have to refine your messaging, you have to refine how you talk about your products. You have to do that in person because you have to actually get feedback, not wonder why people didn't respond. And so I am always a fan of going organic. If it's working, then go semi automation. Because if there's stuff that's time consuming, you certainly want to save yourself some time, right? And move to semi automation. And if it's still working there and still converting, then you move to some kind of automation and test it. And if it really continues to work, I usually do all three in some capacity, but I've dialed it in and said the time that I'm spending on the organic might be my highest value clients that I'm going to be seeking out and attracting and let the rest of it run on autopilot because I don't want to leave people behind. So there might be reasons for it. But I love your method. If it's not working one on one, it's not going to work any better later.

Screw the bots.

The thing is, most of the people that I've run into that have a really good handle on their business, their business is consistently improving and increasing. At one point, were deep in the weeds and when they were really getting things rolling, they were deep in the weeds and understood every little aspect of their business and had their hands on everything. And it wasn't until things really started to take off that they started to climb a little bit out of the weeds, a little bit more out of the weeds. And they didn't necessarily replace it with automation. Sometimes they replaced it with hiring somebody that could also be a personal with people. But if you find yourself in a beginning business that's not taking off the way that you want and you're not in the weeds, people get back in the weeds.

No one else is going to do it for you.

Get back in the kitchen, make some more recipes, whatever it takes, right?

All right, guys, let's wrap it up with one thought. So I want to know two things from each of you. And Joe, we're going to start with you. I want to know one, just narrow it down to one piece of advice like we always do on this subject. And then two, I want to know what you're reading right now.

One piece of advice. I'm going to go back to that passion thing. You know, if you're not excited about it, if it's not really something that you look forward to getting up in the morning, jumping out of bed and getting to it, then it requires some work. You got to fix it somehow. And as far as what I'm reading, you might get a kick out of this. I am reading Michael Pollan's new book. Right. Michael Pollan is the one who wrote the Omnivore's Dilemma, the botany of Desire. He has a new book that's called how to change your mind. What the new science of psychedelics teaches us about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression and transcendence.

Wow.

I've seen him on a couple of interviews. Quite an interesting story.

Yeah, it's. I'll just say this really quick, but it really. I read about half of it already. And what's very interesting about it is he kind of dispels or takes away all of the stigma that was associated with the whole psychedelic counterculture. And he really focuses on the use of psychedelic drugs as a way of helping people who are already, well, just enhancing their lives. And the reason why I found this really interesting is all of the direction that and the momentum that the whole hemp and marijuana and CBD industries going there was recently the first CBD drug that was approved by the FDA on Monday. And so that's already got tremendous momentum. And I'm wondering if psychedelics could be the next thing down the road.

Could be interesting.

All right, Tracy, one piece of advice and what are you reading?

Prove it first. This is always my advice. I'm sure I've said it on your show. I think we probably did a whole show about it. I know I've done like 10 podcasts on my own about it. Prove it first. Prove that the market wants what you have to sell because everything else will actually be easier. The path will lead its way forward. People will reach their hand out to you and say, I want you to come and present to me. It makes it all easier. If you prove that the dogs will eat the dog food.

The consumers want what you have to sell. That's my top piece of advice. And anything you can do to make that proven proof clearer and broader and not your opinion is the important thing. So whether it's data or actual testimonial feedback, use videos, whatever it takes to make that and make it sizable, too. Not three people say this. And so that's my big, big piece of advice. And then I am reading right now. It's called profitability and it's profit Like P R O P H E T by Tony Botto and Betsy Westhaefer. Betsy is one of a good friend of mine and I got to read the preview copy, but now I'm rereading the final copy because there were some new stories in here. It's based on this idea that the pharaohs and religions of the world listen to prophets, right? People who were foretelling innovation and change in the world. And a lot of times they didn't get listened to. So how do we as leaders start listening to our profits before they leave our company and go start a new one and disrupt our entire industry? And so that's what the book's about. And it has some really great stories of ways in which people listened and didn't listen. And I'm fascinated by it. And it is definitely less of an entrepreneurial book and much More of a C suite style book, but it is worth a read.

Awesome. All right, Tom, one piece of advice and what are you reading?

So my piece of advice is a cliche. For me, hope is not a plan. And that's going to.

That's my mantra.

It's our mantra here for years.

But it does lead into what I was saying earlier is that get some outside influence experts, some other eyes to help you gain perspective, to get out from behind your own blinder. That was really a big focus what we said earlier. And so to me, hope is not a plan. Sort of leads into that. And I agree with you, Tim. You need a plan, no question. But even if you don't know what needs to go in that plan, get some expert advice, hoping you've got it right and that think I've got it right. Do I have it right? Guess what, you don't have it right. So get some advice. And then I'm reading a great many different things. I'm not reading a specific book right now. I'm doing my research and reading a huge amount of articles into different app platforms for creating your own app as a business for one thing or another. It used to be you had to hard code an app, hire a company and spend 50 to $100,000 to create a mobile phone app. And you don't have to do that anymore. You can actually do it yourself for most things. With some plug and play things, it's kind of WordPress for apps and still have it on the app store and itunes and Android and all that. So I'm looking at that not only for our own business and doing that research, but I'm also looking at at it to offer it as a service to others for one of our businesses. So I know that's not as exciting as the other books you all are reading, but that's what I'm actually spending whatever time I have reading and researching right now.

Got it. All right, Jamie, one thing on what.

You'Re reading, my one piece of advice would be to no bots.

See, you're laughing. And now that's not going to be such a great piece of advice because I was going to say remain authentic. And I swear that has shown to be the best way of approaching your marketing is to just do it person to person instead of listening to Joe Blow, the new guy who's telling you about the new bot that Facebook added yesterday and everybody's doing it today. Not to say that some of those tools aren't profitable and they'll help your business or whatever. But just think about it first and remain authentic.

I love that advice, by the way. That is fantastic advice.

It's what works.

I feel like this is all being driven by something that we both know about. But that's for a whole nother podcast.

Yeah, we'll save that for another day. But the book that I'm reading, I mess up his name every single time, but I could probably spell it better than I can, but it's Te Hedesi Coates. His last name is Coates. C O A T E S. Because I'm having a lot of political anxiety and I'm reading his latest book. We were eight years in power and I'm just trying my best to remain positive and put on a good face and make my business work and make my clients businesses work. And it's just a lot. So that's the book I'm reading right now.

Awesome.

All right.

So awesome. Really awesome advice. And Tracy, by the way, you were talking about give it away free. Nobody gives it away free. Better than flash topic, because you don't just get one person's advice. You get advice from a lot of different people doing a lot of different things in a lot of different ways. And I don't think anybody could come across better advice in a more well rounded way. So my one thing is kind of putting a cap on it that we've all kind of talked about is work the plan. Have a plan and work it. And then understanding when you stop working the plan or the plan is no longer working, that's when you're at that crossroad. Anybody that's having difficulty right now, look at your plan and figure out if you're working it or have you contracted. You're just focused on one simple thing and it better not be a bot.

So work the plan. The book I'm reading and I just started is called Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday. And so I'll be excited and hopefully we'll all finish our books by the next time we get together and we can all do a quick little book review. But of course, as you can tell, ego is the enemy. Understanding what role ego plays in your decisions and how you respond to people, and when you own your own business and it's very personal, then when things happen, if you respond to them right away, it could be your ego responding.

Well, you know what, it's really funny that you say that, Tim, but the interview I saw with Michael Pollan was the fact that that's why he's a proponent of the Psychedelics is because it frees you from your ego. So after you figure out that ego is your enemy, I think you should read Joe's book.

You were talking about the he was on Bill Maher. Yes, that was it. Yeah, I was thought about the same thing as soon as he mentioned it.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think that I've had to learn and like I said, I'm interested to see what this guy says. He has a lot of stories in there, a lot about himself, too. But in my life, I've had to learn and it's been really steep learning curve. My first response is not always my best response and I always have to think of the why. Why am I saying it this way? Why am I upset? Why am I jumping out and want to rip somebody's head off? Why? Why? Why? And I have a feeling that my ego has something to play with that. So ego is the enemy is what I'm reading. And I'll be happy to give you guys a report on that next time. But listen, really tough topic and I think that you guys all handled it expertly as always. And so you have my undying gratitude and many thanks for all the to the big boxers. I can't wait for this episode so that we can put it out there and people can really learn and possibly make some really great choices about the future of their business, their products, the things that they're doing based on the advice that you all gave. Once again, Tom, thank you for joining us. I look forward to you being on the topic again soon. Tracy is always. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thanks so much.

I really enjoyed it.

Joe, as always, awesome to speak to you. And Jamie, I know we just spoke a couple days ago, but always great to speak to you again and again, thanks everybody. We'll see everybody next time. Wow, Big boxers Flash topic number eight is complete. And I hope that you got a lot out of it. I mean, I hope that the information that was provided gives you some tools in your toolbox for when the time comes for you to pivot when the time comes for you to make those decisions. It's not always easy to say, I'm going to change course. I'm going to sell that stock. I'm going to stop selling that product. This thing is slowed down. I'm going to cut that service from my menu because inherently we feel like we're failing in some way or we didn't do something right or it's just our fault. And here's the thing, it's our fault if we don't do something. Sometimes the bravest, most courageous thing you can do is cut something is close down. A part of the business is change or pivot into a new direction. Takes a lot of guts. You know how I feel about each and every one of you, because we're all entrepreneurs together. We're all in that club of people that put it on the line every single day. And when you have people counting on you and when you're the sole breadwinner or your company is the sole breadwinner and things aren't going exactly your way, I know that fear can get in there. What about if I can't pay the bills? What about if I can't take care of my family? That's why it's so important for you to make those decisions carefully and not be afraid to turn something off or change directions. And here's why. If you continue to struggle, you're never going to have the time to take a look at what you could be doing. Instead, you're too busy trying to bail out the boat that you don't even see the bigger boat that's parked just next to you, waiting for you to climb aboard because you're too busy just paddling, paddling, you know, bailing, bailing. Sometimes you really have to stop that and just say, I'm going to let this little boat go and climb onto the bigger boat. Big analogies there. Big boxers. And it is a tough topic, but I know that you guys are going to make the right decisions. If you ever want to talk through that, you ever want to bounce it off of somebody, I'm here. We're here to help you out with that. Listen, if you haven't had a chance to go to the new on the shelf now.com website, please go and check that out. Sign up for the newsletter. Sign up and get on the mailing list so that you can get emails and information when or talking about what new topics are coming up or what's going to happen or new guests or what we're going to be talking about next so that you can shoot in some questions or you can be part of it. The more interaction and the more that you can be part of what we're doing, the better the podcast is going to be. And I know that we have to get you that information ahead of time so that you have a moment to actually send us something that's relevant to what we're going to be talking about. So that's on me. And we're getting that into place. But in the meantime, go to ontheshelfnow.com and become part of that. You can also go to on the Shelf now on Facebook and join our closed Facebook group so that you can be part of that conversation as well. We would welcome that. If you want to reach out to us, you can always reach out to me on tlbconsulting.com and on the shelf now.com either one of those will go directly to us. We have a new Twitter account called on the Shelf Now. Please each and every one of you go to on the Shelf now and hit Follow so that we can get our new Twitter handle up and running with some relevant followers and start using that platform as well. As always, I appreciate each and every one of you. Thanks so much for listening. Look forward to our next Flash topic and our next podcast in general. Until then, we look forward to seeing your products on the Shelf.