How To Strategically Analyze Your Podcast Metrics That Helps Elevate Your Show With Marion Abrams Of Grounded Content Podcast (Podfaded)

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority Magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the Binge Factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I have a podcaster who has worked behind the scenes as a producer and then has her own show as well. So I've got the host of the Grounded Content podcast and she has been a behind the scenes producer of Spartan up, which is a pretty big deal podcast, so you might want to go check that one out too. Marian Abrams is my guest today, and Marian is a podcast producer, coach and consultant with deep experience in podcasting and content creation. She built Spartan's podcast from an audience of zero to over 35 million views and downloads and has worked on a range of projects from social media advisor on a gubernatorial campaign to creating the documentary film Floodbound to directing TV ads for Vermont Lottery. On her podcast Grounded Content, she explores what works, what drives customer actions, and where the lines are between persuasion and manipulation. Today, Marian continues to work with Spartan and is a podcasting coach and consultant, helping thought leaders, business leaders and podcast hosts to design and elevate their podcast presence. I'm super excited to bring Marian on here. We are highlighting a bunch of new coaches and other things because obviously here at Pottiti, which is the core company that runs the binge factor and it is where I am CEO, we are running and we are exploring certified strategist program for coaches. Now, it's not for everyone. Marianne might not be one of them, but we are looking at how we can support the coaches and strategists and all of those people out there who are with better data, better information, better background. And so I've been inviting them to come on my show to talk about their shows because almost all of them have shows just like Marian does. So that's why Marian's here. Marian Abrams, Grounded Content Podcast Host.

Marian, thanks so much for joining me. Grounded Content, you know, there's nothing I love better than great content and I love someone who's really pushing that as the primary reason someone should be starting a podcast and listening to a podcast. You have a great background in all kinds of marketing content and areas. What Are you bringing to podcasting that comes from that corporate learnings?

I love this because you think about podcasting and before we even got on the air, you talked about some of those old school things that maybe need to be updated. Podcasting didn't exist when I went to school for film. Podcasting didn't exist when I started working on documentaries and commercials. Facebook didn't exist before I started working there. And so when I think about helping people, I think what I bring is actually future proofing. Because if you get in touch with kind of the essentials that are consistently true, why you're doing things, who you're speaking to, what you're telling them, what motivates them, how you want to change that behavior, all those kinds of things, when you dig into that, then the rest is just tools and tactics and that's how you future proof yourself. I think that's the unique perspective I bring, is that broad perspective that goes a little deeper.

It's universal, right? People don't change their behavior just because technology is there. They adapt to the technology or the technology adapts to them. And so it's not going to change the way we want to consume. That's what I keep thinking. And that's why binging, it's always been a part of who we are. That's why this show exists, is to kind of point that out that this is the pattern we've done forever. We just didn't always have the ability to do it so easily.

Yeah, you're right. And I mean, we adapt, right? Certainly attention spans change and YouTube changes how we look at things versus television and broadcast TV. But if you look at the essentials, like, what are you trying to gain? What's your purpose in having the podcast? Who are you speaking to? Those kind of questions and then put everything against that and ask why all the time. Like, don't take any of the things you hear for granted that they're true. Look at your own case, look at your resources and ask why. And those essentials, those do not change.

So what made you decide to start your own podcast? So you'd been helping others, but you did the Spartan up podcast. Let's talk about that in context with this because I want everybody to hear about that. What made you decide to start your own in that process?

Well, should I start with Spartan up first and get through that journey? Okay, so Spartan Up, I had, as you said, this background in a lot of different areas in what we now would call content creation or content strategy. We didn't call it Content. Then you called it film or you called it photography or story or whatever. And so when 2014 came around and I was working with the founder and CEO of Spartan Race, before Spartan Race was even a thing, one day he was promoting his first book and I had been helping him with that. And he said, let's do a podcast. And so that was really as simple as that. And at the time, I didn't even really think that that was anything different than just doing a video series. Like I thought it was the same skill set that I had been using because we had produced. I had done this great 20 week series of webisodes with this guy, Chris Davis. And Joe decenna, the founder of Spartan, he had invited this guy Chris Davis to Vermont. The guy was like 500 something pounds. And Joe brought him to the farm. And over 20 weeks we tracked his progress with short videos week after week as he kind of bumped up against Joe's take on things. And by the time he left, he was doing a 16 mile Spartan race in the mountains. He completed the thing. It was unbelievable transformation. So I sort of thought, well, how different would a podcast be than creating ongoing serial content in video? And that's what we started with Spartan up. We're now 800 and something episodes in. We've got over 40 million views and downloads. And I learned a lot in that process. But now to get to the question, why did I start my own podcast? There was a bunch of reasons, but one was I really went through this personal transformation when Covid came and I thought about how we tell stories and how the sort of ecosystem is changing. And I realized so many people are now out there telling their own stories because all these tools are so much more accessible. Are they going to need me to help them tell the story? Because that was my business. And so part of that was, how do I sort of adapt and become more of a coach and consultant? But also it's important for me. Maybe I need to be making my own content. Like, this is the skill set that I have. Everybody's, you know, if you knew how to be a chef, everyone's telling you, okay, you're a chef now. Make your own content about cooking. And I thought, well, this is what I do, I make content. And it was really frightening for me to get out there, but I realized it was time to kind of put myself out there and try my own voice at this. And it's been a really great experience for. For a million reasons, including that I can coach my clients better.

Isn't it great? You're learning things all along the way as you're podcasting. Anyway, that's my favorite part about podcasting. It's why I was looking forward to interviewing you, because I want to hear what other people are doing. I want to hear what their backgrounds have brought to podcasting. And you have such a unique background there. Now, you call your podcast the Grounded Content, which I love that idea. This is one of the hard things, I think most of my clients, I'm sure a lot of your clients, have struggled with, which is the name of their show. But how did this one come to you?

I really went through this process of thinking about, what is it that I bring to the table? And this is what I work with my clients on. What is it that I bring to the table that other people don't? Right. And it's easy for me to feel insecure or uncertain because I'm in the hills of Vermont, I'm in a small town. My perspective is, in some ways, kind of an outsider's perspective. Even though I've worked with some big companies, but I'm not in those companies. I'm outside of that. I have a little bit of a different perspective about my relationship with nature, my independence, what the media is doing. And so rather than kind of feeling insecure about that, I said, that's actually what I bring to the table. How do I double down on what makes me different? Again, I had to hear myself coaching my clients to convince myself to do this, because otherwise, who do you think you are? It's so egotistical. What do you mean all that? But because I had so many clients say that, and I was used to convincing them, I sort of turned that around in myself and said, you could do this, like, double down on you. And so it was really like, what are the through lines? The through lines are content creation and helping people create content. But here's the part that I felt was really important and not being addressed was, where's the line between persuasion and manipulation? And I had worked with clients. I don't want to go on and on, but I'd worked with clients who had kind of found that line too late after they crossed it. And so I really wanted to just make that part of the conversation.

I think that's really important. I think identifying that unique feature, that unique thing that you bring to it is so critically important. I call that the binge factor here.

Right.

Obviously, that's what I call it. And the reason is, obviously, we want somebody to consume everything you have. So that's why the binge part of that before I get into your binge factor? Because I'm going to get into it now, but before I do, did you realize. I mean, I'm sure you realized it on Spartan up, but did you really think that people were going to binge on your show? Were you consciously building that in?

No, definitely not. I mean, it's funny because some of the things that I did well on my show came from my years of experience, but, you know, it's almost like the cobbler's kids have no shoes or whatever that expression is. There are so many things that I didn't do on my show that I knew I should. And I kind of made it that place for me where working with clients, I really needed to be on. Right. And with my show, I kind of made it a little more fun for myself. And so there were some things that I knew I wasn't planning as thoroughly as I should or executing perfectly, but I made it more of like an experimentation playground for myself and a place that would be creatively satisfying and satisfy my curiosity rather than a place where I always had to follow best practices. So I really should have thought about binging. And by the way, I love your title because grounded content is like, who I am. But look, nobody's gonna search for grounded content once they find me. They're gonna know who I am. But binge factor, I would search for that. Like, what is that binge factor? That's what people wanna know when they're launching a podcast. So I think it's a really smart name.

Well, I like to have a name. This is kind of my view on it, is I like to have a name that is aspirational to what you want out of it. So you'd like to have that binge factor as much as I'm featuring people who have it. So it's also an ego play to the people who are guesting on my show. They want to be associated with the binge factor, so it makes it easier to get guests, like, at the end of the day.

So I want to be on the binge factor.

Right, right, exactly. So, yeah, so that's kind of why I chose that name, is because it has that kind of dual side to it. Because as you pointed out in some of your episodes, not all of the reasons we do things is to get millions of downloads like Spartan up can get. Right. Not everybody can do that. And so our strategies might be simply about our guest outreach. And so for me, that's a critical part of proving that to my clients and proving that to people who are listening to my show that this can be a strategy for you. So let's. Let's talk about your binge factor, though. What I think is really interesting about the Grounded content podcast is that your perspective that you're bringing to that and the way that you ask questions come from a really different place. Normally there's these typical questions that you would get and how to start a podcast. And let's talk about equipment, especially somebody who has a background in creative. I would have expected that you were focusing so much on the creative process, the equipment that it was, and that's not the case at all. It's very in your head. It's thinking through these things and being purposeful and intentional about them. That's really your binge factor, and it's the edge that you're bringing to your own show and to your client's show.

Yeah, I love those words, purposeful and intentional. That is so much of it. Again, it's something I try to explain to my clients is they think either I should ask the questions that I'm supposed to ask because everyone asks them, and then I say, no, nobody's gonna listen to you if you're doing it the same as everyone else. And then they say, oh, okay, so I should do it because it's different. No, you don't do it because it's different. That's still about them. Right. It's really about, like, what is your essential you that makes you you and that unique perspective that you bring and how are you intentional about that, Especially if you have a business goal. Like, you guys are very smart. You're using this as a proof case and also using it to build your business. There are so many ways to get value out of a podcast, but if you don't sort of pick one and work on it for a while, it just is such a frustrating process because you can't see your progress. You can't decide what works and what doesn't.

So, so true. And that's where I think grounded has so many meanings that you put that in is you want it grounded in your business. Grounded to create a great foundation for things. Right. So it has those multiple meanings, which I think is really great for you, and I think that's why it's working. I love the title, and I don't often, like, a lot of times I'm like, oh, that's a great name, but I don't really mean it. But this time I really mean it. It's a Great name.

This time it's true.

It's working and it's true, right? Actually, usually I note, say anything if I don't like it because I'm not good at hiding that I don't like it.

To your point, right, what is the value of your podcast? What does it do for your business and what does it do for your listeners? And calling out a bad name really doesn't relate to that. Where on my show it might.

Yeah, exactly.

I might have to say, like, why would you use that name? Are you sure that's really a good idea?

We were talking before about webisodes and short videos and video series and things like that. And podcasting is really so much more long tail content. How do you address that difference? Is there a different creative process? Is there a different thing you think about when you're creating more long form content?

That's such a good question. And this is the stuff I love to sort of think about. And a podcast, it's long form content, but it's also more self contained. Usually. I mean, there's things like serial, but for most of the podcasts that we're doing, people could listen to the episodes in any order. They could listen to one, they could listen to 10 to the binge factor idea. Whereas the webisode is really like a serialized content. And so the things I like to really think about always is. And again, this is where it's like the grounded thing. There's no hard and fast rules. What's the value of your show to the audience? And value doesn't just mean like facts. Value could be just like, I'm lonely and I feel like I have a friend when I listen to the show, or I need a laugh or I want to learn about something. What's the behind the scenes of how something really works? Or it's like, I need this information for my business to perform better. But really for a podcast, that's the number one thing, is what's the value for the listener and how do you provide that? And then I like to really look at the data to decide how to execute on that.

What data do you look at? I consider listens to actually be vanity metrics. Like, if you've listened to the show enough, all of you out there listening, you've heard me say that again and again. It's like getting on the scale every day and you go, oh, okay, I moved to ounce, right? You get like focused on something that's not actually as useful. But what metrics do you think are useful?

I love that because so many people think that their data, they should just look at like, did I win or didn't I win? You know what I mean? They're like, how many downloads I had? Is that good enough or not good enough? And that's really all they're looking at. What I like to do is look at a couple things. I like to look for patterns. And so there's a bunch of ways to look for patterns. But one of the biggest things that I just like to remind people, because your listeners are mostly podcasters, is you pointed out podcasting has a long tail. And so if you look at all your total downloads, the earlier you published it, the more downloads it's going to have. Because it's got that long tail, it's continuing to accumulate downloads over time. So if you want to compare and look for patterns, you want to pick a consistent time period. So, for example, how many downloads does every episode have at seven days? Or how many downloads does every episode have at 30 days? So first of all, make sure you're looking at a consistent measure. Am I getting too in the weeds?

No, not at all. This audience is going, okay, I get it. Because you can search that way, you can look at it that way.

Yeah. So then you can compare episode against episode. And kind of the simplest rule of thumb I like to tell people is if you're looking at like seven days, that's going to tell you what titles and topics your audience responded to. If you're looking at 30 days, it's more of a metric of overall success. Now, you do have to pay attention to whether your guest promoted or you sent an email or something else could alter those results. But generally speaking, those seven day download numbers, if you see really obvious patterns. So I'll give you an example with Spartan up, when I work with them, they have multiple hosts and different hosts on different days. So I can really see patterns like, okay, these hosts are getting more downloads than these hosts or nutrition is getting more downloads than mindset. I'm looking for patterns. I'm not looking to say like, did this episode do well? I'm saying what is our audience telling us?

A lot of people look at it like averages. And what you're talking about is really looking at it like 20 go into math geekhood means right where we throw out the top and we throw out the bottom and we look at that middle piece and say, what are the patterns happening within here? Because there's always going to be that one anomaly of an amazing guest who just had a huge social audience and it like went viral. You just don't know what's going to go on there. Or the one that just for whatever reason didn't resonate. And if you throw it in, you can't really tell how your numbers are doing. So that's so smart that you're looking at it that way, that you're looking at the patterns of the words, content of what it's about too, because you want to double down and do more of those if that's what your audience is looking for.

Right. And so then the next piece, right, like we put all our shows on YouTube so there's a whole bunch of data there. But also looking at listen through percentages and so those two kind of pieces give you a really good sense. I like to think of it's like audience research. So those two pieces give you a really good sense of what are the topics and titles that they respond to. And then second, how are you structuring that conversation to keep them interested? It's sort of, I like to tell people, you make a promise, you put a promise out there to get people to come in and then they're going to listen and they're going to see if you keep that promise and then they're going to decide to stay. Right. You can go out there and advertise like crazy, but if you don't keep the promise, you're throwing your money away.

That's the part I love about podcasting the most.

With videos.

They don't give you so much grace. I think the statistics from YouTube is something like you lose 70% of the audience every minute no matter what. Like it's just how it goes with podcasting, at least if you've earned it from a few episodes, that idea, I'm going to stick with your show. They already have the promise built in. And so the listen through rate is really high. Typically most of my clients, their shows are 70 to 80% listen through rates on average.

Absolutely. Most of the shows have a really good listen rate. And if you look at that, there's the chart that you can see in the back end and you can see it in Apple or you can see it on YouTube. And that shows what that listen through experience was on average. And you're right. On YouTube, no matter how good the video is, there's that dip right away where people get there and they say, oh, this is not for me. And that has to do too. I think with the way YouTube works and the algorithm and we're really lucky in podcasting, that's One of the few places that really is not yet algorithm driven. If people are there for you, they get your stuff all the time.

Well, it's because they haven't figured out how to algorithm voice yet without transcribing it.

Well, they will, unfortunately. They will.

They will. I know. I hear Google's working on that. So it's coming. But so far they haven't figured it out completely yet. So we're all safe in our RSS feeds and thank goodness. Well, some of the things you talk about are create fade and which we use pod fade here in the podcasting industry. I love that you talked about it as create fade tube, because that's more on the content creation side of it. It's where you lose that ability to like, sit down and record. And that's a. There's three types of pod faders to me. Ones who get overwhelmed with the production side of things because they're trying to do it themselves, or they run out of money and can't use their team. Those things happen. That's an understandable fade. There's the fate of someone who's done 600, 800 episodes, so they're a little burned out on their topic. It happens. Usually those people start up a new show, though. That's what I find. And then there's the pod faders to really just run out of, like, ideas. Guests, they lose momentum there somehow and then they get behind and then they don't keep recording. And it's such a shame. What tips do you have for create faders?

So first thing I want to say is a lot of people start a podcast without really thinking about why they're doing it. And I actually think, like, if you start a podcast just because you're like, everyone told me I should start a podcast and you start a podcast and you get nine episodes, it's okay to just say, this isn't for me. That's okay. Like a lot of us try new things and we say this isn't for me. I think that is fine. But I think there's a bunch of things that you can do to kind of re spark. And some of them are surprising. One of them is sometimes you gotta double down. Like everyone says, oh, if you need to fade, you must be burned out. Right? But it might be that you really need to just double down and go in a hundred percent. Like, you're doing one episode a week, go to three episodes a week, you're doing 10 minute show, do a 30 minute show. Because sometimes you just need to get re Energized, Right.

And you need it to do it for you. Like by diving in, it's doing it for you. You find that pace. That's why I hate when I hear that people quit before 25 episodes. Because I really think that your pace, your stride, starts happening at 25 episodes, and that's when you really start to see, where do I fit in and settle into that place where you're comfortable with it? The media type?

No, I think it's so true. And even myself, as someone who has coached and worked in this space for 30 years for my show, I'm kind of going through a new transition now, right? Where I just becoming a little more flexible and. And a little more comfortable and giving myself a little more grace. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, but I asked a few podcasters when I gave a course who had more than a hundred episodes, and I said, what changed for you from the beginning till now? And a lot of it was really about giving themselves grace and realizing that the audience was there for them and that they could do shorter, they could do longer, they could do guests. No guests. That they could bring their voice into the conversation much more than they had been, and that that was valuable. I mean, you talked to so many podcasters. What do you see?

I do think it's the case. That's kind of why my number is at 25 episodes, because it's sort of a pace of doing it. So if you're doing one a week, that's going to get you about six months in. So it's enough time span for you to get comfortable with it. When I started back in 2014, when we started our first podcast and really started airing it in 2015, we did five days a week. So we crash coursed ourselves into it. And so a month was 20 episodes. So there you go. We were in it all the way at that point. And there's a feedback earning that happens at 25 episodes. So I think it is when that feedback happens, when someone says to you on Twitter or Facebook or wherever, they reach out to you and say, hey, I listened to this episode and I loved it. And I'm really curious if you address this next or if you would talk about this next. When they're asking you for something, then you're like, I'm showing up for someone. So the next for us, the next month of episodes at that time was we had this person in mind. We could hear her voice, we could see what she was looking for, and we were podcasting for her yeah, it.

Helps so much to have somebody in your mind that you're talking to.

Right, exactly. And so that was. Gave the audience a face, and then more faces joined that, and it built momentum till at 100, you do need a pivot. It's something that you have to consider and sit back. And at 100 is when I usually advise my clients and also look at every one of my shows, because for me, that's usually a year, because we usually do at least two episodes a week for most things or do a short and a long. So we're kind of getting at that stage. But I take a look at it at the end of every year, and I really take a look at the idea of what's working, what's not working, and how is it feeling for me, and how can I keep making sure that I have energy to continue on it, or is this time to be done with it? And sometimes it is time to be done with it. It's not working for your business. Your business has shifted, and shifting the show isn't going to make it any better. That's usually when I start a new one, you know, so that's why I have eight personal shows, even though I'm starting my eighth next week. I mean, I am recording it next week.

That's pretty impressive.

Yeah. But I don't record all of them anymore. Like. Yeah, so you just have to get to that place. But that's such a great viewpoint, is to really looking at when these pivot points happen, when these times where you need some advice. And that's really where I think you bring some great value, Marianne. Because when thinking about audience and content, first, coaching, there aren't many people who focus just on that piece. There's so many people who can help you produce your show, edit your show, get it started. I'm telling you, I've met a ton of them, and they make a lot of mistakes, actually, because they started one show and then they said, oh, I'm going to do this for other people. And it doesn't work quite the same way for other people. But when you're really focusing audience and content and being intimately in there with your business, and I think that's why you have such a greater chance for success for your clients. Yeah.

And I think everybody brings something different to the table. And I don't want to be too judgmental, but there is a part of me that just screams out when I hear somebody say, like, well, yeah, like, I worked in such and such a business and I completely transformed to this new business, I started a podcast. I loved it so much. Now I'm a coach. Oh, really? When did you start that? Six months ago. And I think, like, I do see that there's value in being just ahead of someone in their journey, but I have to believe that 30 years in this sort of broad spectrum of different kinds of content creation in different contexts really gives me a sort of adept to help my clients in a different way.

You've been doing that all along. It's like that coaching part is different. You might, as a consultant, it's a little different because you have to provide that to them. It's part of the contract. But it's not any different. I know I went kicking and screaming into the idea that I was actually a podcast coach. I really hated the idea of being a coach of anything. I didn't want it. It didn't fit me. And it wasn't until, like, about two years ago that my team kept saying, you have to start calling the call that you have every week a coaching call, because people understand that. And I was like, but I'm not coaching people. It's like, let's see, Tracy, you've launched a thousand shows and you're doing this, and you're providing advice and you're answering questions. I think you're coaching. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I am coaching.

Right.

But it was that aspect of not wanting to be someone who started it six months ago. Now, of course I started it six years ago, but still, I didn't want to be in that place. So I totally get that. But it is so true. When you bring that deep experience through and you're continuing to stay at the core coaching on that, what tactics you use, what media type you use, it needs to change. Because if you're not changing, you're not future proofing, as you pointed before.

Yeah. And that's the fun of it, right? Is like, that's what keeps it exciting. If those things didn't change, I mean, you think you burn out after a hundred episodes. Imagine if, like, the platforms weren't constantly shifting, if there wasn't exciting new things to learn.

Let's talk a little about promoting before we go here, before we go into our little section of the three questions. But promoting, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Do you take a look at that with your clients? And how do you evaluate the promotion side of podcasting?

So, super quick, I have what I call the five P's, right. The first one is purpose, and that's Kind of what we talked about. Why are you podcasting? What's your business goal? Second one I call pov. We also talked about that sort of, what's your voice? What's your positioning? Who are you? Right. The third one is process, and that's one we didn't talk about because it's not as fun, but it's super important. And I kind of boil that down to balancing. How do you look at your resources and your goals, and how do you make every decision about what's the advantage it's going to bring you, and what's the cost in terms of resources, whether that's financial or your time or your team? Right. And then the next P is practice. I know you'll like that because you get better at this with practice. A lot of people don't realize that. And then the fifth P is promote, because podcasts now, it is totally different than 2014. Right. It's a very crowded space. And if you write a blog article, it could be the best article in the world, but nobody's going to find it unless you put it out there, unless you tell people about it. And a podcast is really like that. Now, you can have a really wonderful podcast, but if people don't know about it, they're not going to find it. And so I think of promotion as there's three pieces in terms of growing your podcast. The first piece, it's almost like customer acquisition. That promise you put out there, we talked about that. That promise you put out there, how do you put it out in the world and invite people to come to your show? How do you go to where your listeners are and bring them in? Then the second piece, I think about, like, customer service. You made this promise. You brought people there. How do you serve them when they get there? How do you make sure they feel like they got what they were expecting, they got what they came for, and they stay? And then the third piece is retention. Once they get there, how do you get them to come back for the next episode? And so most people who talk about podcast growth talk about the first piece, but they don't talk about the second two pieces. And so I really like to think about that part of it.

And I think that it's okay if you're shifting over time, like you're getting your show started live in peace, one for a while, that's okay. Then tack on two, then tack on three. Right? Like, you can build on that. It doesn't have to happen all at one time. I love that sort of segmentation. Of that. That's wonderful, Marian. So let's talk our three things guests. You have some great guests on your show with really different viewpoints that you don't hear on everybody else's show. I love that about you. How do you find these guests? How do you vet them? What do you do to get great guests on your show?

This is such a tricky question because what I do for my show, of course, is really different from what I do say for Spartan up, which is much more client oriented. And so what I do for my show is much more personal. And it's really has a lot to do with. I am super curious about how do we drive customer behaviors and how do we do it in an ethical way. And most of the people that talk about this, they sort of have their thing, but nobody's sort of challenging them and asking them the real life questions. It's not because I'm contrarian or anything, it's because I just. I really want a real answer.

Right.

I'm just tired of sort of pat bs and so I'm very fortunate that I've crossed paths with a lot of people in 30 years in this content space. So a lot of the guests are people that I've touched in one way or another and always thought, wouldn't it be great to ask them these questions? So there's definitely those people, right? That's a big part of it. I think that's something that happens too. Right. You get 25 episodes in, you use up your pool, and then you start to look on the horizon and you get a sense of that filter, and I like to call it, you have a filter for your guests, right? Who's in, who's out, who's a good guest.

If you're segmenting and looking at your stats that way, then you're also making some judgment calls.

Yeah, right. Who's in, who's out, who's an appropriate guest. And then once you have that guest, right. Like when you're designing your questions, do you care? Does your guest care? Does your audience care? Like, ask yourself those three questions. That's the key filter, right?

Oh, that's wonderful. Such great advice. And I was thinking that it ties to your original. Like if you're using that sort of segment one of promotion, that may be your guest strategy right there. Right. I need more guests that have the audience that I want to reach. So that's the kind of guests I need to invite on for a period of time. So you might be using it as part of your promotion strategy as well.

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting that this is one of those things. And I'm really interested to hear you told me at the beginning that you were going to give me some tips about things I could improve, which I'm excited about. But one of the things I hear a lot of people saying is that, oh, you got to have a big name guest on your show and that's how you're going to grow your audience. It doesn't usually work that way. A big name guest is really valuable because you can get other big name guests. Right. It gives you that authority, that credibility. But generally speaking, if you, Tracy Hazard, if you have Gary Vaynerchuk on this show, that's super cool and you'll probably have a great conversation. And he's a podcaster, so I would love to listen to it. Right. But his audience, if they want to know what he thinks, there's a thousand places they're already looking. They're probably not going to come here. Right. Your audience is going to love it and maybe you'll get a couple of new people and maybe some of them will hang around. But also, if you get a big name like Gary Vaynerchuk, he's not going to promote your episode.

No. The bigger the name, the worse they are at it.

Well, and I feel like they're doing me a favor by coming on my show and so I don't expect any more from them right now. The tiny guest, they will be super enthusiastic and they'll promote the heck out of it. But they don't have an audience. It's that mid tier guest and specifically that mid tier guest that is a good fit for your show. Because the other thing that happens is say you have a podcast about a specific subject and you invite maybe a pro wrestler on your show and you're going to talk to them about what they like to read. Right? It's about what do famous people read? So you ask them these questions, but you don't know anything about their career as a pro wrestler. And so a lot of people make the mistake and say, I'm going to have this pro wrestler on my podcast and I'm going to promote it to their audience and they're all going to come and they're going to love my show and they're going to stay. You know what's going to happen? They're going to come to your show and they're going to say, you asked the dumbest questions. You don't know anything about wrestling because you're asking about Reading, Right. And they're going to say, this is a stupid podcast. I'm leaving.

But if you could get Reese Witherspoon on your podcast and her book list and her book community would all be all right, fit. Well, you talk a lot about listener focus and really understanding who these listeners are. So let's talk about listener growth and engagement, going where they are. You mentioned that before. As part of the promotion strategy, identifying your listener seems to be like some of the most important things. But not everybody knows their listener when they start. How do you help them through that? Sort of, how do I get more listeners and how do I get them to engage?

If you're listening, not watching, there was like your hands were on one side for one of those on the other side. And I feel like all these things are really cyclical, and so you have to do a little bit of one and back to the other. And so if you really have no audience, you may want to run an ad or you may want to send a blanket email because you need to feed somebody into the system to start to get data. It's sort of like you need to publish enough episodes to see how people respond. Even people saying, no, this is not for me. You may not have that data to look at. Now, you can go with your gut, and that's really helpful. And early on, especially if you already have a community, that's really helpful. But I think of all the data as audience research. Every episode you publish is audience research. And so it is that, like, go with your gut, try some stuff, see what works. Try some new stuff, see what works. Because the other thing that's so important about data and that can stifle creativity is always remember, there is no data for innovation. There is no data for something that's never been done. Right. And so don't get too hung up. Yes, look at data, but don't say, oh, the data doesn't show that that's successful. I'm not going to try it. Well, you haven't tried it yet. You have no data. So don't get all hung up and not try new things, whether you're talking about promotion or your content, but in this case, we're talking about promotion. So try things. There are things that will work. And as you pointed out, what works will change.

What works will change. Absolutely. So monetization. Do you have clients who come to you and are asking about monetization and monetization strategies? Let's talk about it as a sort of general topic rather than say, how are you monetizing your show, because that doesn't really matter in this particular case, because obviously you're educating a potential client base. So that's your monetization model here. But what do you think about monetization in the podcasting market?

So I'll tell you, I am not an expert in this area, and that isn't because it's not important. It's very important. And I think it's important. That's that first piece in the 5p is that first p is purpose. And for me, that's your tactical, practical purpose. And so I don't always think about it as monetization, but I think about it as purpose. And so maybe you're trying to sell your book, maybe you're trying to sell your coaching program, maybe you're trying to grow your email list. Maybe you're working on customer retention or brand depth or brand lift. Maybe it's about building your own authority. Maybe it's about networking and meeting the guests who are coming on your show. So I think about it as tactical purpose rather than monetization. Now it's just looking bigger picture, and maybe that's because a lot of my clients are a podcast for a larger business. Think about Spartan up, for example. We're not worried about day to day, how many sponsors we have and what's our cpm. We're worried about how does this show benefit the larger brand. And so it's important and in a way you could consider it monetization. And in fact, we just booked a title sponsor for the show. So not only are we now in a place where that show is profitable and beneficial for the brand, but I think thinking about it in terms of purpose rather than strictly monetization is really helpful. But I don't think it's an either or like that people poo the idea of monetization, I think it's really important. And I think obviously there are a lot of things other than sponsorship, especially selling your own products that can be really valuable. But I think really focusing on business purpose rather than monetization is how I work with my clients.

Yeah, I think that's such a great perspective on it. And I'm actually really shocked that now that you said Spartan up just took their first title sponsor because of the number of listens. I can't believe people weren't, like, banging down the door.

But we've had sponsors. We've had lots of sponsors weekly, but really, for the first few years, if you think about it, it's really like branded content. So Spartan is like the sponsor of the show.

Right. You don't want to muddy.

That's exactly, yeah.

Oh, that's so important. Well, you've been podcasting for a while. You've been supporting podcasters for a while. What's the one thing you think you probably repeat the most to everyone? And that's the best piece of advice you could give?

It's not about the freaking microphone. It matters. Okay, yes, you want to sound okay, but it's about what you say. Come on, people. And so you think about it. Why do you like a book? It's not because the print is really nice. It's because of what the story is, what the book is about. So it's not about the microphone. Don't get hung up on the microphone. It's about what you say.

I love that this also comes from a woman who has a background in film. And so cameras and equipment have been probably a big part of your life. And yet that's the thing that you're saying is not the focus of it. It's the tools that make it happen later. But that's not the focus. Oh, such great advice, Marian.

It's not about the paintbrush. Right. It's not about the pencil. You get the idea.

Absolutely. Well, wonderful, Marianne. Thank you so much for coming on this show and sharing your wisdom with everyone. Grounded content podcast. This is for podcasters everywhere, so all of you should be going to subscribe and listen to it and check out her back episodes, because don't forget, we learn a lot from the beginning, just as much as we do from the currently releasing ones.

Thank you so much, Tracy. I just want to ask you a ton of questions, but I'll hold my tongue. I'll let us close.

Well, then maybe I'll have to come on your show.

That's right.

We'll have to do a swap. Right. Because that's super valuable to everyone.

That's super valuable. Yeah.

That's what I love so much about doing this show, where I can really get into how other people are doing things, what they're getting at. I love Marianne's discussion of stats and really that synergy that we see on vanity metrics going across the industry here. And I love when I see that because it helps to reinforce what we're doing, how I'm coaching people, how we're developing our business structures. So it really helps tie into all of that. But then you get new perspectives on things like how she looks and analyzes the stats, and when they're looking at that from a really big podcast standpoint, like the Spartan up show that she was working on or is working on, then you really have a sense of that's what matters at that level. Does it really matter to you? Starting out? It's not a bad way to look at it, right? It's a really kind of good way to sort of analyze is what's happening in this so I'm not reacting to my stats so quickly. So all of those different things I love that I get to do the show. I get to explore people's brains and their podcasts and find out more about them. I'm so grateful Marian Abrams came on to talk with us today about the Grounded Content Podcast. Just such great perspective from someone who's such a seasoned podcaster and so experienced in the production side of everything. So I'm looking for others like that. Anyone out there who knows someone. Maybe someone you've been working with as a coach, Maybe someone who has a great podcast that you can't stop listening to. I'm looking for that Binge Factor everywhere I go, so make sure that you come and find me at thebingefactor.com, check out the episode and blog posts for each of the episodes that we've got going on@thebingefactor.com, so you can see some best practices there. But you can also explore how to get in touch with great guests like Marian Abrams. So everyone, I'll be back next time with another great podcaster here on the Binge Factor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, Please go to thebingefactor.com and be be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.