How To Strategically Improve Your Podcast To Have Good Returns Of Investment Time With DP Knudten Of NONFICTION BRAND

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors, and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the binge factor.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Pinch Factor. I'm Tracey Hazzard and I have DP Newton Today Nonfiction Brand Podcast. It's not often that I get to be interviewed before someone comes on my show. Very often I interview them first and then they come on my show and then I go get invited onto their show. Right? It goes the opposite way. But in this particular case, DP invited me on his show first. We had so much fun and there was no way I wasn't gonna interview him on my show. It was gonna happen anyway. But we had so much fun on it and I got a different insight. So it means that DP and I could just kind of have almost have a continuation of our conversation. So I do want you to go back and check out when I'm on his show. So look at them both and what I'm going to try to do and hopefully the publication date is in time is like make sure that you have the link to the final of everything and they're airing at similar timeframes so you could hear the differences between him interviewing me and me interviewing him and the continuations of our conversation. What I really loved is that he's got this fabulous studio, he's got an ear for sound, and we just hit it off and had so much fun on everything. This is what he calls himself, D.P. newton, chief collaborator, collaborator creative. And the collaborator is really what I felt in everything that we've done together. It felt like collaboration when I was on his show and and you're going to hear it today. It's going to feel like collaboration on my show. DPs worked on some of the biggest brands in the business, including Coca Cola Athlete's Foot Closet made during his tenure at DDB Needham McCann Erickson and creative shops in Denver, Sarasota and Madison, Wisconsin. He is the author of nonfiction Brand Discover craft and communicate the completely true completely you brand you already are, and co author of R O T O M A, the ROI of Social Media, Top of Mind and the creator, host of the popular podcast the Rotoma podcast and nonfiction brand. He's also a keynote speaker and clinician in branding, social media, creativity and culture for groups throughout the U.S. dP is just so much fun and I know you're going to enjoy this as much as I did. And we just have such great continuations and conversations. So if it sounds like we're picking up in the middle, we actually are. And you might want to check out our other conversation too. Let's hear it from DP Newton, Nonfiction brand podcast.

Dp. I'm excited to be back with you and I love looking into your studio as I seeing this. For those of you listening, you might want to go check out a photo and or check out the video and see because it's kind of like this nice little depth peek into your studio space.

Well, it's actually a peek into my brain, to be honest. This is the square footage of our house that my wife allows me to have. So this is the me part. So for those of you who are listening to the podcast and can't see the visual behind me, I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 guitars, some on the wall, some in stands on the ground. I've got some recording equipment over there. I've got this, that, and the other thing. It's literally a peek inside my brain because as a longtime creative, I've found that if you want to be creative, make sure your creative tools are right around you all the time. And we can go into the reasons why for that. But let's just suffice it to say every creative, I think you could almost say, is on the proverbial spectrum. Because one of the things on the proverbial spectrum is the idea of object permanence. If it's not in front of you and you don't see it, it doesn't exist. Well, if you're a creative, you need to be reminded all the time that, yeah, you're creative and the tools you use exist and you should use them, especially when you're stuck. And we can go into that ad nauseum.

No, but I so agree and it's great to see this insight into you because I listen to your podcast. I hear very good sound choices and the fact that you're a musician, that you have all these tools, that you understand sound so well, is apparent in that. But sometimes, and this is the thing, when I get sound guys, and it's usually men, and when I get some sound guys, they overdo it. But you don't.

Well, let me talk about that because while I appreciate technology I love the human aspect that makes it actually single. Technology is a level up tool that I use and I can get down into the nitty gritty about microphone choice and all that stuff, but it still comes down to the fact of, do I sound good? Yes, I want to sound good, but do I communicate well? Because that is the key. And as you know, how many podcasts have you listened to that have fantastic content but crappy technology and you can't stand to listen to it anymore?

Well, you can't stand to listen to it. But I also think there's this sort of new idea that there are a lot of hosting platforms, podcast hosting platforms out there that have their AI tools and I find they overdo it. Like it just removes everything that's good and authentic about your pauses and your dramatic license that you're taking with your show. Your authenticity starts to disappear.

You can smell the AI. I tell you, I have this battle right now currently because I'm a copywriter, not an art director, but I work with art directors. I'm a creative director and copywriter background guy. I have this fight because everyone, we're all playing with ChatGPT to see how it can work for us. And, oh, this is an easy way to do a blog post and oh, isn't that great? Until you read it and go, I can smell the silicon. There's not a human carbon based life form involved in this. And I can tell, and let me tell you, we, our senses, our auditory senses were developed not by technology, but by the fact that saber tooth lions went and cave bears went and some things were like a little bit that meant you were going to die.

We need our sense.

Our heightened, yes, our auditory senses are fantastic threat detectors, but also fantastic BS detectors. And I know what you mean because what you were saying was some guys, and they tend to be men, are so into the technology, and not only that, so into the radio voice, that what they do is while they're on their podcast, they're actually doing their radio voice as well because they've got cans on or headphones and they're listening to themselves and they like the way they sound. And I find that so obnoxious. I love people like, okay, let's talk about Hollywood stars. Based on his vocal stylings. Why is Owen Wilson a Hollywood star?

Why is Jimmy Stewart? Jimmy Stewart, how did he ever become a Hollywood star? Even the quirky vocal stylings of modern stars, like, what's her name? Sarah Carlson. She has a bit of a lisp and she's a Hollywood Star. How does a Hollywood star have a bit of a lisp? And the answer is, because it's not about the lisp. It's about the authenticity she is able to present on screen and over auditory channels.

I heard you say somewhere that you're surprised when people go, wow, you sound just like you do on your podcast. Like, that's surprising to you because you're like, yeah, of course I do. Why shouldn't I?

Yeah. Well, until I listen to some of these people on their podcast and go, hi, I am reading off a script the intro to my own podcast, which I have done for five years, as opposed to, hey, guys, it's me. We're doing this thing. You know who I am. This is who I am, what I do and how I do it, and being completely authentic.

And I do want to caution everybody out there, right. DP and I have been doing this for a long time. He's got four years in. I've got about seven years in. So. Or eight years in now. So, like, I mean, we've been doing this a while, so we can say that. And you're sitting back going, but I'm just starting. The reality is, is your podcast listeners will grow with you. So you are a little nervous in the beginning. Please don't read a script. But if you're a little nervous in the beginning, you'll ease into it pretty quickly and your audience will come along. They will be happy with that. That's okay.

And guess what? They will love the fact that they were early adopters of you. It's like you're the band that they discovered before they were big. And, oh, yeah, I'm glad you like them now they have a top 20 podcast. Well, I was there on episode one, and I know everything about them. You and I have both done this. I don't know about you, but I found my favorite podcasts. Maybe at episode 70, I could go back to episode one and listen all the way through. And I hear that podcast host develop. And I love them all the more because I get to take their journey with them. And I can tell, oh, they got a new microphone and they sound better. I don't know what that microphone is, but they obviously were listening enough to know that Audio matters. Oh, that's pretty cool. They changed their music. I don't know if I like it as much as the old one, because I associate that old music with the person I knew way back then, but that's how much of a relationship you have with the listener.

Well, just so everybody knows, we're changing our music right about now. We'll probably, by the time this one airs, the music is going to shift on it. And I was like, I was really hoping everyone would go, that sounds a little bit more like Tracy. So you never know whether you're improving things or not. But you're right, there's an association and.

That'S the whole thing. We started talking about a change. I made 200 episodes in. I'm like, I'm getting kind of bored with this. I want to try something different. And I had a format which was designed really for one thing, which was how much time, money, bandwidth and effort I had available to me. And that format was I would get someone like Tracy on as a guest. We would record for a solid hour, but I would divide it into two episodes that would run on consecutive weeks. So there'd be week A and week B. And I would literally, I'd keep my eyes on the clock right around half an hour, I'd say, hey, it's about time to wrap up this episode. But don't worry, we'll be back next week with Tracy for more of this fantastic conversation. You know, I do my outro stuff pause, pause, pause. And I would literally say, pause, pause, pause. Because that would be a cue to me while editing that. Here's the end of the first episode. And then we go right into where we left off.

I love that you do your own verbal cues. Like that's just an awesome way to do it. You have to do it because it makes it easier for who's ever editing it, including yourself. Cause you're not gonna remember. You think you will, but you will not.

Right? And so if you do that kind of like my podcast ends with, as always, I'm your host, DP Knuton, and she is. And that's where I get a little radio corny. I do a little radio corny on purpose. Cause it's self knowing outro. Like, yeah, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. This is our outro. And it also allows the person, Tracy in this case, to be able to say their name in their voice. Which is exactly what my podcast is about. Using your own voice to get your own personal brand out there. And it's a great way to wrap up things. So anyway, for four years, 200 episodes, I do that format half hour episode, week a half hour episode, week B. And the nice thing was I didn't have to do in a full hour edit. I would literally, on Saturdays, it was always every Saturday, I would get the audio and I edit myself. I would do the editing because I care about audio and I care about audience experience. And so I would literally, for the longest time, hand cut out every. And by the way, you can spot a person who has a podcast by how few ums they do because they.

Don'T want to cut it right.

If they cut it, if they edit themselves over time, after you've edited out literally 100 ums in a half hour episode, you go, God, I got to get over that. And the beautiful thing, the really beautiful thing is if you're a speaker or you want to do more public speaking, doing a podcast and doing your own podcast editing makes you a better public speaker because you are so aware of your quirks. Like, one of my quirks is I'll start sentences with, well, you might say, I love Empire Strikes Back. And I'll say, well, my favorite. Instead of all of a sudden, I'm now sensitized to that well, because my mother always used to say, well, David. So in my head I hear my mom every time I hear, well, I learned to stop saying well so much. I don't cut out all of them because that would be completely artificial. But it's like cilantro. You put too much cilantro in anything and it tastes like some kind of weird herbal soap. A little bit is nice, but too much cilantro is bleh. So I allow myself maybe one well in a half hour episode. And I will only have more in if I can't possibly cut them out because of the way I said the sentence. So anyway, I played around with a new format, get someone in for a full hour conversation between 45 minutes to an hour. And it broke me. It literally broke me. Because all of a sudden, the two and a half hours I'd spend on a Saturday editing became more like four hours because it was twice as much content. I would have to find a new guest for every single week, which now doubled my outreach needs for locating people, which was never terribly difficult, but still it doubled it. So all of a sudden everything was doubled. And the format did not work for me when the format I had worked beautifully for me for four years. So literally right now I'm kind of in a hiatus as I restart. I'm going back to the future, back to the old, back to the old style. Even the episode that you and I recorded, I'm going to take the end of the. And she is Tracy, and I'm going to plug that at the end of the. Around the half hour mark in the episode so you will have a week A and a week B, because that's what works for me. And if I can give anybody in your audience a recommendation, don't do what works for other people, do what works for you. I know people who have five minute long episodes because it works for them. I know people who do three hours because it works for them. If I were to try to do a three hour episode, if I had a great guest like Tracy, no problem, we'd fill it. But I know Tracy and I have both had guests where five minutes in, we're looking at the clock going, oh, my God, I'm ending this.

Yeah. You're like, why did I start this? Yeah, exactly. Well, as you can tell, DP is not one of those guests on my show here. We won't be shortening this episode at all.

Yeah, you put a nickel in me, man.

Well, I think I was the same way on your show. So we'll go there. You mentioned before, and you said it this way, and I love that you said this. This is like what you can do, but also what you enjoy is the best format for you. Right? It's. There's no one size fits all, for sure.

I mean, one of my favorite podcasts to listen to is Smart List that has Jason Bateman and Sean Hayes and Will Arnett. So you got three really top shelf TV and film talents and stuff like that. And their format is fantastic because one, there are three friends who like each other and you could tell they give each other crap right and left. They have different personalities that are so clear and fun that you feel like you're the fourth member of their team.

But I think also that you're pointing out, though that they aren't playing a character. And that's the difference on there. They're themselves.

Yeah, absolutely. They are absolutely themselves in their format, their recipe. Hey, we're all Hollywood professionals. We have a lot of friends. A lot of them are really interesting. A celebrities, one of us each week. And this is beautiful. See how they do this? There are three of them. They have to come up with a guest each only once every three weeks. So let's say I'm Jason Bateman and my guest is going to be Dax Shepard of the Armchair Expert, another fantastic podcast. Well, I don't tell the two other hosts who it's going to be, but I start reading their resume in a very cagey way so that it hides the obvious stuff. But this person has been a fantastic A list TV star for over 10 years. Let's just say they love family. So you're going, okay, 10 years. Family. Who loves family? What was that show? Parenthood. Who was on Parenthood? Dax Shepard. They mentioned something about his name might ring a bell. And you go, oh, oh, oh, yeah. Because Dax Shepard is married to Kristen Bell. And I bet you it's Dax Shepard. And so before they even get through the intro, you're like totally buying into the podcast. These guys, what is their prep if it's not their guest? They show up and get in front of a mic. That is their prep level. And you can tell because half the time they're giving Will Arnett crap. Cause he just came off a golf course.

Yeah, that's right. They do give him a crap a lot.

And that's part of the fun because you're listening to guys who really, really care about each other rip on each other, which is like, that is catnip for any guy. And a lot of women as well, who just like to see men enjoy their. Each other's company. And then you get to meet incredible guests. They had Paul McCartney on their podcast.

That was one of the best episodes, I have to say.

Oh, my God. And what a surprise, because. Oh, Zoe Saldana. Yeah, that makes sense, you know, oh, it's Kristen Bell's. Oh, that makes sense. But Paul McCartney. And then you hear these really top level celebrities just turning to little boys meeting their hero. And that's compelling audio. And you can hear the love.

But that's because they're not playing a character. And that's really, I think, where we get so wrong in our heads about this podcasting thing, or we take too much baggage from our radio history or from our television history. And they've said, no, we don't have to do that. We're stars. But we don't have to take the baggage of what we know in production. It's not going to play here.

Well, you look at people who've come out of the woodwork with great personalities like Esther Perel or Brene Brown. They are who they are and people love them. You know, Esther Perel has this little French accent. I think she's French, perhaps. Her content is fantastic. But the fact that she wraps it all up in kind of a croissant.

Makes it all that much more fun. Brene Brown, she's kind of from Texas. She's got a little bit of brassiness to her, a little bit of I don't care what you think, but I do, but not really.

And I think that there's a big difference between seeing her on stage, which I think is actually a little too cultivated. And the podcast is not. And I think there's a great difference there. I think I've enjoyed her more than when I saw her on stage. And this goes right to what you talk about on your show. So that's why I want to hit on this. I mean, nonfiction brand, right? That means that we're not pretending. We're not playing a character. We're being ourselves. We're being authentic.

Right? And again, do not confuse being authentically true to your nonfiction brand. That which is who you are, what you do and how you do it, and that dreaded acronym tmi. Too much information. You listen on my podcast, you're going to probably not hear the names of my children ever. You'll hear me mention my dogs frequently. There's a reason for that. My young women daughters don't deserve their dad getting up in their grill and using them too much as well. We've all seen parents who use their children as currency or stories about their children as currency, embarrassing stuff about their children as currency. I find that odious and disgusting. So I choose not to do it. That doesn't mean you don't know I have daughters. I just mentioned them.

I'm kind of the same way. I try to respect their privacy. Every so often, there'll be something and I'll be like, one of my daughters does have a podcast, and she told me this, but it's related to something. And I do get permission first because that's the one thing I did. Don't talk about me. With something that I heard really early on. When I would even talk to my parents, I'd be telling a story and they'd be like, don't talk about me. So it's not something that kids, you know, they don't need that.

Right. And I'm thinking of a certain individual whose whole life is based on basically the currency of their past family. And I'm not talking about comedians who are dealing with trauma on stage. I'm talking about an individual. This is very much like a podcast intro to the Smart List podcast. An individual who is well known for encouraging women to absolutely go for whatever their passion is, and they have no problem throwing their ex husband under the bus and use their children and their stories frequently to elevate themselves. This person who shall remain nameless really makes me physically ill because it's trading on things that I don't feel comfortable with even listening to. And however it may be completely authentic to who they are or the Persona they are presenting.

Actually this comes to mind. I was asked to make a commentary about it and I'm curious your thoughts about Meghan Markle's podcast. And someone said that they saw a decline in it was falling on the charts and there were some technical reasons which I pointed out to them, to why it was falling on the charts, which had nothing to do with her show. But after I listened to it, I realized what the problem was. It's that it's a Persona. Oh, overproduced, I guess would be the way I would describe it.

Podcasts are different. I grew up in theater, I was an actor. Acting classes, all that stuff. There's a phrase that's used a lot called the willing suspension of disbelief. If you go see a live theatrical event in a traditional theater, you suspend the fact that, oh, that house has three walls, but one of those walls is open and we get to see in the house. You suspend the disbelief of that being a house because your experience watching the show is predicated on you suspending your disbelief and engaging. So when we watch movies, even we suspend our disbelief. I don't believe that Benedict Cumberbatch can wear a cape and those things Dr. Strange does in a Marvel movie. If you're a Marvel fan, you suspend your disbelief in even the physical laws of gravity. I mean, half the time because it's so crazy. Podcasts, with rare exceptions, there are some and I don't know about what your feelings are about those really produced ones that are like, here we are in Abraham Lincoln's Oval Office on the day the 13th Amendment was passed. And it's then you've got reenacting actors do it. I find it corny as crap. I love the content. But it's like, Mr. Stanton, how dare you say that about the southern states? It's like, oh, come on, that's a 40 year old actor trying to sound like he's 75. And. But you suspend your disbelief to a certain extent, but it doesn't work as well on audio. Meanwhile, you see Daniel Day Lewis play Lincoln in Steven Spielberg's movie Lincoln. And you by the end of it.

You'Re like, wasn't that Lincoln?

Yeah, that Englishman. That's now what I think Lincoln sounded and looked like because it was so compelling. Audio is different. Like, I don't know about you. When I listen to music and I hear Auto tune, it makes me disrespect the person using it. Other than T Pain, he was the original guy to use Auto tune as kind of his sonic signature. But when you Hear something that's too perfect, it loses me. I love authentic human produced music.

Well, I think that we don't realize, and I think this is one thing where we tread on this, because obviously I own a production company, and in the production company, our rule of thumb is not to over edit. So unless someone asks us to take out something, we only take out technical problems, ums and ahs and those kinds of things. We don't take out content unless someone asks us to. And we make that rule because we don't have a right to make production decisions. You're listening to your own show, you're making some decisions. You're making cultivated decisions. But what I find with Meghan Markle's show and some of those other, what I consider to be overproduced shows is that they're so concerned with the way something got said that they edit it out and then don't do a retake or don't add anything back in. So they aren't really fixing it. And so now there's these almost like gaps in the story, and that's what's.

Missing again, you can tell. It's like they're hermetically sealed podcast episodes, and I hate that. Meanwhile, the ones where the mannerisms, the pauses. And by the way, pause is a content piece.

Yeah. Please don't edit out all your pauses. I love that.

Oh, my God. So some of the things I will do. Are you familiar with Audacity, which is a audio program?

Yeah, Audacity script. We've used or tried them all here. So.

Yeah, Well, I like Audacity. Audacity, for one thing, they have a setting called truncate silence, which is if you've got a silence gap, that is. I'm just going to use inches to describe it. That is 5 inches long. It will truncate it to 3 inches. You still have a substantial gap. So if you're asking someone, so when your father killed your mother, how did you feel? Pause, pause, pause, pause. And it takes them 30 seconds to gather their emotions. That's a little too long a pause. But if. How did you feel? It didn't feel so good about that. It ruins the authenticity of the moment. So truncating that silence just shortens it a little bit, but does not remove it. I made the mistake early on. And if you go back to podcast number five or something like that, you can hear where I. Over truncated silence, where it was literally. So what'd you think about that? Well, I found it kind of disgusting, really. I didn't think So I thought so too.

Yeah, it is too sped up.

But you know what?

It's also an interesting thing. There's a term in the industry called podfasters, and it doesn't mean you're starving on podfast, but it means you're sped up. Your podcast listening. And because I have to do so much prep in a week, I am a pod faster. And so. But very often I find shows sound so bad because they've truncated their spaces so much that you cannot listen to them on that because you lose all the dynamics, sort of pauses and everything in that process. Your show doesn't. I tested it. I went back down, but I tested it that way just to see.

Well, and that's interesting. Long story. Try to keep it short back. I used to collect copies of recordings on vinyl of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. I love that piece. And I wanted to hear Michael Tilson Thomas with conducting this orchestra. And what I found was that after collecting like 15, the variance between the interpretation and the tempos and everything else was incredibly different. And yet it was still all the same. Someone could go much faster, someone could go a lot slower. And it retained its integrity because it didn't mess with the actual key kind of content pillars of what's going on. So by retaining that long pause, but just truncating it, making it a little shorter, you don't mess with the tempo of the show. The show will have a tempo and you expect it to move at a certain speed, but you also expect a pause in there that might.

A variety in the speed.

Right, Exactly. And I'm really glad to hear you say that. You've listened to my episodes and say that it doesn't get messed up by shortening things up a bit. Because I sweat that stuff. I literally. People don't know how much I sweat to get the audio as good as I can.

This is what I want to point out. So dp, I mean, there's a big difference. I can hear it in a show because I listen to so many different shows. Right. So I can hear a show that. Where someone is really settled into this beautiful pace of they're comfortable with the show format, they're comfortable with what they're doing with what they're capable of. So you can hear that. And it's one of the reasons I sometimes go back and listen to the very first episode and then listen to a current one and kind of bridge through that to see the progress that they've made through there. But there's also a really clear difference to Someone who understands the effect that they're having on the audience. And I think both in the way you ask your questions, in the content that you're developing as you're going through that and drawing out of your guest. This is why people listen to your show again and again. This is your binge factor, dp it is that you are cultivating that with the sound, with the editing, with the guest, with the questioning, with everything that you're doing in that content. You are having a great awareness of the impact that it's leaving on the audience. A lot of us are doing it for us, but you're doing it with an intention of impact.

Well, absolutely. And I'm glad you're picking up on this because frankly, I don't know if people are. I assume they are, but you never really know.

I believe that it comes across. So this is what I wanted to do. Want to say to you tv, when I listen to your show compared to others, there's a reason I would come back and listen again and again. And it's because it is apparent whether I understand that consciously or not.

Yeah, well, I'm so glad to hear that. Because people will say things like, well, how do you run your show? And the answer is, I invite people on who I think could be interesting. I think based on how I met them or what I've read about them. I think I have a PR people would call a peg. I think I have a peg for what we could talk about, but I'm not married to it because all of a sudden, like, I think I'm going to talk to someone because they have a really great voice. And let's talk about microphones or something like that. Like how you choosing a microphone can actually affect how your brand comes across or something like that. And then all of a sudden I find out, no, we're talking about our dads and their effect on who we are as individuals. Because that's what was interesting in the conversation. People will say, well, can you send questions ahead of time? And I go, no, because I don't know what I'm going to ask. I literally don't have anything.

I hate it when people ask me for questions. I'm like, it's a red flag. You shouldn't be on my show.

And the whole thing is the thing I will tell people if they get nervous about that. A lot of people are, well, I don't think really fast on my feet. So I like to have things ahead of time. I'll say, don't worry, I'm going to make you sound fantastic. I'm going to take out all your ums, I'm going to EQ your track specifically to make you sound as good as I possibly can. And if it takes you five minutes to come up with an answer, I'm going to cut out four minutes and 55 seconds of that pause. I might leave in five seconds. Because you're a thoughtful person, I'm not going to mess with your tempo, but I'm going to make you sound good. And that's the key. Sometimes people will suffer through an episode. Not suffer, but they'll listen through an episode and go, well, this doesn't really apply to me, but I'm meeting two people that I kind of am enjoying. And what I will describe to people I've invite on my show, I'll say when they'll ask, well, what kind of show is what are you going to talk about? And stuff. I'll say, you know how when you're in a crowded coffee shop and you're just enjoying your coffee, maybe reading a book or checking your email, and you hear an interesting conversation going on behind you and you start leaning back in your chair so you can listen to it more closely without infringing on the conversation? That's what I hope every episode of my podcast will be. I'm not going to say every episode is, but all of a sudden you hear me get excited about meeting this person and finding out that, oh my God, I've never thought about that, or ooh, you've got a different person. Let me ask you a question. I've always been wanting to ask someone that I didn't know who to ask.

And that's where I find podcasters go really wrong and you don't. Right. You're finally able to go and dive into that follow up question that go a little bit deeper and really uncover what's going on. Because your curiosity is driving that for the audience.

Oh my God. Okay, so people in your audience, I don't know if you enjoy Sunday's Meet the Press or crap like that. I actually enjoy them to a certain level, except for one thing, and that is that you get a person on your set, you ask them a question, they drop a bomb, and you don't deal with the bomb they just dropped because you got to go to the next question. It's like, wait a minute, jettison everything. Like if someone says, well, you know, I didn't support him on this issue, but I did support his presidency, even when I found out that he had Carnal relations with the family dog.

What are you doing? Wait a minute. Let's forget everything we are going to talk about and say you support a person who had carnal relations with the family dog. And you were comfortable with that? Well, yeah, because we were able to get the Supreme Court judges we wanted. Let's talk about that. So. And they don't do that. They'll actually blow past the gold nugget that was.

And this is what. You don't want to have your audience yelling at their phone or their earbuds. Right. You don't want them yelling at it. And that's what I think happens. And that's when they quit the show. It's right there. When you don't do that, follow up, you're not putting your audience first and they know it.

It's interesting you mentioned the Meghan Markle podcast, which I haven't listened to, so I can't really talk about that. But let me talk about the fact that the most recent Hairy interviews, that's the right stage for his authenticity. He came off very authentic and very hurt and very damaged and very honest. Whether you liked it or not, you have to admit this kid, oh, my God, the life he had, right?

But he didn't sound like. While he may have known what they were going to kind of ask in general, none of it sounded like a soundbite ever. And that's why he came off so well in all of that.

I don't know if you're a TikTok fan, but There is a PR professional on TikTok I love. Her name's Molly McPherson and she is a woman who's definitely over the. I'm just gonna be safe and say over the age of 40, but I.

Think significantly over and still doing well on TikTok. Mind you, for all of you afraid.

To be on it and killing it on TikTok, because she has found her perfect stage. In my book, nonfiction fiction brand, I talk about a concept called style stage. You have a style and there are stages out there that are perfect for it. So in her case, TikTok is fantastic because she uses TikTok content and then opines on it from a PR professional's point of view. So when there's some kind of blow up, and there is always a PR blow up to talk about, she will say, like, let's pick one that's fairly recent. Gisele Bundchen and Tom Brady. Tom Brady basically gives up his family to try to squeeze out one more year as an NFL superstar. And to a man like me, who's been married 26 years and family is the most important thing, I just am enraged by that kind of narcissistic male toxicity. She will opine on wherever the latest thing is. Like, well, it was interesting to see how Gisele Bundchen responded to Tom Brady and his tearful attempt for the second time, end his NFL career. She was very classy, she was very kind, and you could tell she was shoving the knife in his back and twisting it because she made her point, which was, you have to do the most important things in your life and see them through the end. Boy, that says everything.

It does. That's really interesting. The style stage. So before we go here, I want to touch on nonfiction brands. We have a lot of people out there who talk about personal brands, and I'm going to say that I really think that your view on the world of personal brand isn't let's stick our face on everything and let's put our signature on every website. You know, like, let's not do that, but let's find where we fit in, providing something for our audience.

What I like to say the kind of three pillars of nonfiction branding are who you are, what you do, and how you do it. These are the things you constantly need to demonstrate via whatever stages are available to you. So podcasting is fantastic for me because I get to demonstrate the way I think, the curation quality of my brain by the people I have on as guests, the way I interview them. It's a fantastic way of getting people, hopefully, to say, wow, that DP guy, he's pretty smart. I should maybe talk to him about other stuff or at least get his book or have him speak to our group or something like that. It's a fantastic force multiplier for me. I'm talking to you from a basement outside Madison, Wisconsin. And that's pretty interesting because back in the day, and as recently as 10 years ago, I'd be talking to a wall in the basement of my home outside Madison, Wisconsin. Instead, I'm talking to you all the way in California and potentially to everybody who's globally aware of your podcast. So that's an incredible force multiplier and why I use podcasting as my number one style stage. It suits my style, and it's a perfect stage for that style.

Well, I think it also builds a lot of trust, right in a really trustless society that we have right now where we don't trust anything anymore, we don't trust what we see on social Media. We don't trust any advertisements, but it's really hard to fake it.

200 plus episodes in oh yeah, and it's interesting. One of my favorite follows is a guy named Scott Galloway. He's a professor of marketing at Stern School of Business at nyu. He's also on the Pivot podcast with Kara Swisher, which is a perennial top 10, I think. And he's also got the Prof. G podcast. He's a really he likes to refer to people as blue flame thinkers when they're really, really smart. I think he's a blue flame thinker and your mileage may vary on him because he's a little bit crass. I refer to him as Chrysandra, meaning that he's not afraid to open up or to predict. But he will be a little bit 50 year old guyish, but he's incredibly smart and one of the things he said was he does a lot of speaking. When people come up to me and they say thank you, I really liked it. I know they've seen me speak in public or they've read my book, but when people come up to me like they're a friend of mine, it's because they listen to my podcast. And I am convinced that's because when you're in a podcast, you're literally in someone's head via their ears. And over time they learn about your eccentricities and that endears you to them. They learn about your vocal style and it becomes warm and homey almost even at the for those people who lisp like, I'm trying to think of some famous Lispers who are very popular, like Jonathan Ross, the British host. He's got a terrible speech impediment. Does not stop him from being a superstar in the uk. Why? Because he's a compelling interviewer who brings out really interesting content from really interesting people. Oh, that's a good recipe for a podcast, especially if you're comfortable with your own voice. As you can tell, I'm pretty comfortable with the way I am. For those listeners who can't see my salt and pepper beard, that is 99% salt. Let's just say I'm north of a certain point in life and I don't give a crap anymore because I know this about myself. I care about people. I want to be respectful, always assume good intent with what I say. Doesn't mean I'm always going to say it the right way. Because let me tell you, when you were as, let's say, old as I am, language has changed substantially. During the arc of my life. And things that were absolutely garden variety things to say as recently as 10 years ago are now flaming hot landmines. I'm okay with that because I'll say, if someone calls me on, I'll say, oh, I'm sorry, please tell me why that's offensive. Or, you know, because I want to learn.

And most often they won't. Like, I very rarely see that. When you've been podcasting as long as you have, and as long as I have that, people will say something even if you tripped over it and you didn't say it in the right way because they trust your intention, they might say it from a friendly reminder and say, hey, you may not realize this, but they will not go after you as easily.

Exactly. And it's different if you're Uncle Joe who's constantly trying to poke everybody and punch their buttons. You're not going to get that grace. But if you have earned chits or deposits in the bank of goodwill because you've done 200 episodes that people found some value in, they're willing to go, wow, that was kind of tone deaf. But I know he's smarter than that, so I'm going to give him a pass on that.

Yeah. And maybe they'll educate you a little bit on the side, but in a nice way, and you'll be like, oh, I'm better off for having learned that. And that's a great way to do it.

Absolutely. And that's one of the things my podcast has been so great for me. I mean, it's always wonderful for guests to come on. It helps them and stuff. But the biggest benefit I get out of it is learning and hearing other people's stories and literally forcing my brain open. A lot of times when we had our conversation about what you guys do with binge factor and all that, I'm like, God, I never thought of doing that. Why haven't I done that? Why haven't I invested in my podcast? I put a ton of time in. I've got, and as we've said numerous times during this podcast, I've got over 200 episodes. Why don't I have 200 pieces of at least 200 pieces of fantastic content on my website, frequently cycling through my social media feeds, shared out with individuals when appropriate, not in a braggy way, but in a helpful way, in a giving way?

Because it's still a lot of work, right?

Yeah, it's still a lot of work. And I've got only enough time to do the way I Do it. Yeah.

But I love that, you know, do what you can and at each stage there's something different. And I love that you're going back to your format because it's working for you. But what's next for the show? What's next for you? And nonfiction brand I think I'm going.

To be turning up my curation invitation bar a little bit. And that's not to say I haven't had fantastic people, but I have hesitated reaching out to what I would consider a list people just because my podcast is not huge and I'm not Joe Rogan and all that. But I have learned a long time ago if you don't ask, you don't get. So I think I'm going to make some really, really big asks of people that are the real thing. I don't want to talk to the guys who are leaning up against Lamborghinis with fat stacks of cash on. I don't need that type of person. But I'm like, there's some TikTok. And again, I'm a big fan of TikTok. There's some people on TikTok that amaze me. Let me just share one with you that you can look up if you're a listener. Look up Anna Lapwood on TikTok. She goes by Anna Lapwood, organist. Her story blows me away. Bear with me a second. She is an organist in the uk. Why do I know the name of an organist in the uk? Well, she happens to be an associate, I don't know, of the Royal Albert Hall. And in Royal Albert hall, one of the premier concert venues on the globe, there is a organ that has something like 1,500 pipes and it's 150 years old. And she plays it and she practices late at night, like 3am because they've got stuff going on all day and it can take six hours just setting up the organ, all the different stops to get the right sounds. And she will practice stuff like Hans Zimmer's score to the movie Interstellar and oh my God, it's fantastic. And she's playing. The whole building will shake because the organ's so powerful. And this story blew me away. So there's a British band called Bonobos which is, you know, it's not a top 40 band, it's not a pop band, but it's very well known, very well respected, kind of in the ambient music space. They were getting ready for like a three night stand at Royal Albert hall and the trumpet player from the group is working with the audio engineer before they started. And it's late at night and they're doing arcane technical stuff, and she's practicing, and all of a sudden he yells out, adagio in D flat minor or whatever, you know, Toccata in D. And it's the old da na na na na, the organ thing that everyone knows. And she plays it, and it's like making the whole building shake. And he goes, oh, my God. They talk to her and say, listen, our final night is coming up. If I wrote you a part, would you play with us? The finale of our residency at Royal Albert hall, they do that. And all this stuff is on TikTok. Anna Lapwood, organist, they do that. She plays. She's practically crying while playing because she feels like a rock star. And she's like, I don't know, she's maybe 30. It's fantastic. And as she said, she did a recent TikTok about it. She said, I felt like my music career just opened up. And within a year, she went from unknown to a Sony Classics music contract with an album, because she was being exactly who she is, doing what she does, and the way she does it on a style stage that suits the personal brand she is. And let me tell you, holy crap. To see that in action. And I feel like I know her.

I mean, it sounds like you already sat down with her and had this story, so I can't wait DP for you to get these stories in. And I love that you're going to reach farther because really, at the end of the day, when we provide a venue for our guests to come across so authentically, just like you have today, like, that's all that matters. The numbers don't matter.

Exactly. And the thing that everybody listening should take away is what are we as human beings most desirous of or hungry for? And that's authentic human connection. We like to think that that influencer on Instagram, I'm connected to them. You aren't, but you can. Literally, you could send Tracy or myself an email, and you're going to get a response. Why? Because we don't get that many. Even though I know that people are listening, I get very few emails because, oh, you've got that show and you're something better than me or at a different height. It's like, no, no, I'm not. And the person you hear is the exact person I am. And I mentioned that people are amazed that I sound the way I sound, because that's the way I sound. But that's the True test of what I would call your nonfiction brand. If people meet you in public and go, you're exactly who I thought you would be, that, to me, is the absolute best gift you could give me, which is, thank you. I have worked really, really hard to be exactly who I am. The hardest thing in the world is to be who you are.

Yeah. Well, thank you, dp, for being who you are and bringing nonfiction brand podcasts to the world and keep going with it, because I cannot wait to keep listening to the future and see who your new guests are.

Oh, I'm going to get Anna Lapwood. I tell you, I'm going to. I'm going to get Molly McPherson.

I'm going to make a clip for you so you can go send it to her so she realizes how badly.

You want her on the show. Believe me, I've got this crush on her, this intellectual crush of, oh, my God, I'm so proud of you for doing this.

Well, listeners out there, if you can help DP connect up with her and make sure that she comes on his show, make sure you reach out to either one of us, send an email, reach out to us on social media, find us, and we'll connect you up.

Yeah.

I just loved doing the show with dp and I think I may have not mentioned this earlier, but he does this, in my not so humble opinion, is the name of his live stream. And so we were actually live streaming when I was on his show. And so that link is provided for you in the blog post for this episode atthe pinch factor.com, so you can hear it that way, even if the podcast isn't live yet at the time. It's not live at the time that I'm recording this, but it doesn't mean it won't be by the time this episode actually airs. But four years podcasting, 200 plus episodes, there's always something to really learn from someone, especially someone who's an authority on branding and in this case, nonfiction, which is business, right? Like, think about it as business or organization or something. You're not telling stories. You're not entertaining with your podcast to craft a storyline. You're crafting a story and a message about you, your business and your organizations, or your membership groups or your community, your mission, Right? That's what nonfiction brand really means. And when we think about that, we really have to think about, is it really working for us? Right? Am I getting enough out of this? And that's where that ROI for the time spent when he was talking about that Roi for your social media, for the time spent on something. He clearly values the roi, the return on investment of his time podcasting, and it's clearly coming across on his show and out to all of you as well. But I think the biggest tell was he thought he needed to mess with his show and in the end it didn't fit him as much and it didn't seem as valuable. And that's always a great lesson. Go ahead, try something. But if it's not working, feel free to revert back. Right? Feel free to refer back to something that works for you. Because at the end of the day, when you're in a nonfiction brand situation, when you're doing this for your business or for you, it has to have a good return on investment for your time. It has to feel good. That should be up there in one of your key measurements about Is Podcasting Worth it for me? I'm so glad DP Newton has decided that podcasting is worth it for him, because it's really worth it for us, those of us who get to listen to his show. So go check out nonfiction brand podcast. You're not going to want to miss it. And check out his YouTube while you're at it. And check out the, in my not so humble opinion, his live streams as well. So thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazzard. I'll be back next time with another podcaster and another great message about how you can get your messages out to the world right here on the Binge Factor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd Brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.

Sam.