How Unstructured Style Of Podcast Can Positively Bring More Listeners With Kate Wallinga Of Ignorance Was Bliss

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority Magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazard shares strategies, tips, and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors, and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the Binge factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazard and I have Kate Willinga. Today, Kate is a podcast host with the kind of in that true crime area, but not it's kind of an interesting model of what she's got going on there. It's a show about who you are, about making everything sound normal. It's from PTSD to podcasting to serial murder. I love her description there, so she's kind of covering the genre, but in a really different way. I love the night title of the show, Ignorance Was Bliss. So let's hear a little bit more about Kate. So Kate Willing has spent her professional life in the fields of mental health and criminal justice. Her favorite, hardest, and most important work was specifically in the fields of correctional psych, forensic psych, and crisis assessment. After a series of major medical issues, she had to go on permanent disability. She spent a few years moping and resenting the world and then decided it was time to get over herself, find a hobby, and build connections outside of the house. Having worked in forensic psychology and crisis assessment, podcasting seemed like the next natural step. Ignorance Was Bliss is a show about how we become who we are, about making just about anything sound normal. From PTSD to podcasting to serial murder, it's about people's stories. Are you sure you really want to know? Kate lives in Salem, Massachusetts with her husband and four kids. She's a storyteller, a a scary collector, and a herder of cats. I had so much fun talking with her. She's just got such an unusual perspective on the world. So I know you're going to enjoy this interview. So let's hear it from Kate Willinga. Ignorance was Bliss.

Kate, thanks so much for joining me here. Ignorance Was Bliss. I like that title so much, I can't even tell you how much I love that title. How did you come up with it?

Well, my origin story is that I broke my back in 2014, so up until that point I was working as a forensic psychologist and crisis clinician. And so my life went from being very full and very Unpredictable to feeling very empty and painfully predictable. And I got tired myself after a couple of years. And so it was on New Year's Eve 2017, moving into 2018, and I have four children. I've been married for a thousand years, and my father had just moved in with us. And I really started to feel like I wasn't playing the lead role in my own life anymore, that I was just a supporting actor to a lot of other lives. And so, depending on who you ask, either I went up to my husband gently and tapped him on the shoulder, or I grabbed him by the shirt collar and pulled him in real close. And I said, I'm starting a podcast, and he's a smart man. And so he said, okay, how can I help? Not even that. It was just, I'll get out of your way, whatever. And so I sort of played around with, what do I want to do? What do I know? Talk about what you know. And so I thought, well, It'll be maybe 10 or 20 episodes about what forensic psychology is. Because when I told people I'm a forensic psychologist, everybody's like, oh, that sounds cool. And I'm like.

I mean, yeah, it is, but not for the reasons most people assume. And there were a lot of days that I would go into work, whether it was in the prison or a locked psychiatric facility, and I would think the only reason I get to go home is because I have a key. That's it. That's the only difference between me and them. And I think a lot of people are uncomfortable knowing that. Right.

And so that's interesting.

That concept of ignorance is bliss. Well, it was. And one of my taglines early on for my show was, didn't you feel better before you knew that?

That's a great tagline. But you shifted your show so you don't really talk about forensic psychology anymore.

I do. It comes up. Exactly. So that's where the title came from, that idea of, didn't you feel better before you knew? Because if I can make something feel understandable, and I can, whether it's depression or parenthood or podcasting or serial killing, I can make it make sense. You may regret knowing it. Once you know it, then you can't unknow it. Right.

So I have to tell you that that's so funny that you said that, because I think I said something similar to my husband really recently. So we are like master bingers on television shows, and so we have to find a series that has, like, dozen seasons. So we decided to binge Criminal Minds and when you binge 15 seasons with 20 episodes or more over a few months, you really know stuff that you really shouldn't do. So I literally walked into a pharmacy the other day, and they asked for my birth date and my name, and I was like, that's too much information to be giving out publicly. As I'm looking around myself, and I saw it on a Criminal Minds episode. So, like, you're right. It's too much information.

Well, and that's a different thing, is I'm not actually allowed to watch Criminal.

You're not allowed to watch anymore.

Anymore, because you know how it is when you have an area of expertise. Like, if there was a show about podcasting, you probably wouldn't be allowed to watch it because you'd scream at the TV a lot. Right. I'm glad you.

Because I literally just read this article today where they were panning the fact that on the Sex and the City remake, and just like that, with Sarah Jessica Parker as a. Or Carrie Bradshaw, her character is a podcaster. And it drives the podcasters crazy that it's really a live radio show. It's not a podcast. And they all pan it and they all complain about it. So you're right. It's totally true.

It's that. And so, like, I watch Criminal Minds and they do little things here and there, and I'm screaming at the TV like, that's not gonna happen that way. That's not allowed. It wouldn't work.

So it upsets everybody.

Well, so how did you decide to pivot the show over the years? Here you're over 450 episodes, something like that.

The last 435 as of right this second. You know, give me a minute. So I did True Crime pretty much exclusively. It started very scripted and very structured, and I realized I didn't much like that. And it happened kind of out of the blue. I was talking to another podcaster on Twitter around episode five or something. It was really early on, and she's an emergency room nurse, and so we were talking about how she did the medical side and then I would do the psychiatric side of a mental health crisis. And I was like, oh, you should come on my show. And she did. And that's when it clicked for me. Like, this connection with the real world.

The interaction with somebody else, that's the.

Thing that was the magic ingredient for me. So it remained true crime, but not as structured for a long time. And after about a year, I realized that I find. I'm trying to say this diplomatically, so Bear with me, because diplomacy is not my strong point. But I find the true crime community can get toxic very easily.

I was just talking to another podcaster about how the romance market is the same way.

I mean, supposedly any group could, right? But with true crime specifically, it becomes very voyeurish and sensationalistic. And it's not that they forget that these are real people. It's that they get off on the fact that these are real people. And I'm like, okay, but let's go back to the fact that they're real people and people die. And also the ripples of pain and misery spread out, so much so the perpetrator themselves. First of all, I'm going to say something controversial here, but perpetrators are people too. And so unless we're really gonna lock em all up and throw the key away forever, which we're not and don't do that, we have to figure out a way to humanize them and to acclimate them back into society mostly. Like, I suppose there are some people that can't, but for the most part, we're gonna assume that also they have families who suffer when their loved one is locked up. Also their victim, whether the victim survives or not, suffers in some way. And the victim's family and so on and so forth. The community, there's a lot of pain and misery here, and there's a way to handle that with respect and with care. But the popular thing to do in true crime is we're going to have two cute little white girls who are going to get drunk and giggle and call the bad guy bad names. Yeah, not my fave.

Well, it's been in the news because they got Adnan Syed released. And that's because of serial podcasts. For those that don't know serial. Like, the name of the show is serial. And so that thing is, it's like, I didn't listen to the show. I mean, I've listened to it enough to know it's how it works and what its style is. But I'm not a true crime listener on a long term. Like, it's just not my thing. And I looked at my husband and I was like, I hope they were right. Like, I really hope they were right. At the end of the day, like, this is really the right thing and it's not someone going, well, like, this was so popular. So I got to make sure that I'm going to get reelected. Let me release, like, you just don't know if your influence was good or bad.

That case was. I can say objectively terrible.

It was, yes.

I don't know whether Adnan Syed was factually guilty. I don't know. I don't know enough about the case. But also no one knows enough about the case because there are so many mixed messages. And the police did a terrible job. The prosecution did a terrible job. His defense lawyer did a terrible job. Everyone involved in that case did a terrible job. So I don't know. And nobody's ever going to know whether he was factually guilty, but he was not legally guilty. I believe. I believe it was the correct decision to let him out. If you're not sure.

Yeah. And see, this is. The thing is, like, you have a more educated opinion. And I look at that and I go, I have no idea. But I just really hope that podcasters are taking it seriously. And a lot of them don't.

Oh, they're not. Right. And so the first convention that I ever attended was a True Crime podcast festival, they called it. And I was gatekeeped there. I had a table, I had merch, I had listeners come up and talk to me and tell me they knew my voice and listened to my show. And I was like, are you okay? Like, I'm so sorry. And, you know, are you not tired of me yet? Because I'm tired of me. And yet they seem to be delighted to meet me. And yet I had other podcasters telling me that I wasn't true crime enough because I didn't do narrative style or. I don't know. I don't know. There were times where it felt like I was either being too serious or I wasn't being serious enough. There was just gatekeeping going on. And my answer was, you know what? You can have your territory. That's okay with me. I could fight for it because I literally have a doctorate in this stuff, or I could let you have your territory. And I'm going to pull back because I realized what I liked. That magic ingredient was talking to people and just connecting with guests and talking about literally anything, whether it's their podcast, their book, whatever it is. And so I pulled the lens back. And so I consider myself a story collector, more just society and culture rather than true crime. And I never regretted that change.

I think it's really interesting because I talk to thousands of podcasters literally over time between my show and my company. So, like, I have so many podcasters. And the business side, the entrepreneur side, the other side of podcasting that's not scripted in any way or not put out by a network is the Opposite of that. They're so collaborative, they can't wait to welcome someone on their show. They want to collaborate together, they want to cross promote each other's shows, they want to go on each other's shows. And guests, like, they have such a different view of the world that it's so interesting that you're seeing this part of the market that is more like, well, you're not good enough. You're not a real podcaster. It's kind of actually like the radio people. So the ones that I do find are like, that are the ones that came out of radio, went into podcasts, and. And they consider themselves OG podcasters. And they have a chip on their shoulder for being og.

That's great that you've been knitting longer than I've been knitting, but it doesn't make either of us a better knitter. Right? It's the same with podcasting. It's like, I'm not going to fight about this. I'm not going to argue about it. And I still do. Some of my episodes are true crime in nature. It depends on what my guest wants to talk about. And I used to have, when I would meet with somebody, I would do, like, background research on them and I would listen to their show or I'd read their book or whatever, and I realized I was making myself, like, literally insane. I mean, arguably I've already done so by releasing 435 episodes in almost five years.

Like, I get you've really taken it to an intense level. I'm going to just say you're like an elite.

Like, it's not an addiction. I can stop anytime I want, for real. But instead, I flipped the script in a lot of ways. There are a lot of things that experts. And I'd use visual quotes, but I really hate them. But experts say to do things like have a release date, like, every Monday is when you release. And I decided, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to release when I can, and I'm going to keep it more fun than stress. And they do things like, say, stick in a genre. And I was like, yeah, not going to do that either. And they say, study your guests before you have them on. And I was like, here's how about instead, if they're an interesting guest and I have a good time now, I'll go buy your book now I'll listen to your show now, I'll hype you, but I'm not going to give you the emotional labor and the energy and the focus and just the neurons firing that it takes to prepare. Instead, I start every recording. I don't call them interviews because they're not structured that way. I start every recording with a blank piece of paper in front of me, and I have some housekeeping stuff that I do to confirm. Do you want to be anonymous? Because once in a while, people do. What are your pronouns? What's your social media questions like that. Where can I find you so that I can direct my listeners onto you? And then I just go. Because I feel like if 12 years of college wasn't enough to make me good on my feet, then ask the right questions.

Right, Right, Exactly.

And that's the thing, is that I don't treat people like they are clients, but I kind of do a little bit. Kind of do. Because the point is, you want to make them want to talk to you. And if I can't do that, there's no number of prep questions I can create that are going to make people want to. And very often, like, my favorite thing a guest will say to me is, no one's ever asked me that before. And when I get that, I'm like, that's the best. And so when I write down things, I stay focused pointing here. I stay focused on the paper and in those talking points in that agenda. And I forget that the moment is here. It's between you and me right now, and whatever you say right now. And if I throw you a softball question, sometimes it's because I think you're nervous or we're just kind of getting started. But sometimes you're going to answer in a way where my brain's going to go, whoa.

And they're like, I can go there. This is. Yeah, this is gonna be a good interview.

Right? You just said those words. What are you doing? And so we play from there. Right?

And so my audience is gonna see the difference in our interview here, because a lot of times I have to do more talking because they're. Even though I'm interviewing podcasters, you think they'd be good at being on the other side of the mic, but they're not. You are, and it's brilliant. And I can just let you go. And so it's a different interview, and I can flow with it because of how you react to the initial. And I love that you recognize that as well.

That's my strength. That's what I realized is my strength was not in prep. My strength was not in quizzing someone, that if I let you be the expert on whatever it is you Want to come and talk to me about? You'll do it. Everybody's interesting. Everybody has a story. The number of people. And I can think of pretty high profile people that have come on my show, actors, authors, podcasters, and the like who have said, oh, I'm boring. I don't have anything to say. I don't know what I'll say on Mike. And I'm like, that is just waving a red flag at a ball because I guarantee I can get a story out of you. And there's been at least a couple of times where people have been like, that didn't hurt at all.

They're like, oh, that was good, that was good.

Although, would you like it to? Okay. But just getting people to recognize that, like, you don't have to feel like an expert to be compelling, that's really important.

I think that's so true. And sometimes, especially someone who's doing a podcast about something or doing a book about something, I mean, they think they need that objective distance. And that's not always the case because, I mean, I don't know who can be a writer, who can be a podcaster. And you're not bringing your perspective into it. You are like, there's not that objective distance. It just doesn't work.

It doesn't exist. Well, my last recording was a couple of days ago. I just took some time off for health reasons over the summer. And I'm just getting back into the flow of things. And so I was worried about, have I remembered how to do this? And the answer is, of course I have. Of course you have.

You've got muscle memory going on. Not just.

But the last people that I had on are. They have a documentary that's out right now, just brand new out now. And so I'm trying to get the episode out in the next couple of weeks to grab that, to help them with that push for initial publicity. And you could tell by looking at them, because I don't release video, but I record everything with video because you can get a lot from somebody's body language and you could tell they were both just tired. And I asked before I hit record, I said, how many people have you talked to today?

And they literally, they started counting down their fingers and they were like, eight. You're the eighth. I was like, oh, my God. Okay. And I made a point to say to them, like, I don't have any prepared questions. And so I always ask my guests, introduce yourself and tell me what you do. Right.

Which I think I just want to point this out, because we also do like to pull back the curtain and reveal a little bit about your technique and what's different about the way you structure your show. And that introduction is surprisingly interesting. Like, sometimes I feel like people will be like, oh, you want me to introduce myself? Like, it's like you put them on the spot or something. Like, they don't know themselves. But I feel like people would react like that. But I listened to multiple ones where they've introduced themselves, and they actually do a really great job of keeping it short, sweet, to the point, and with an energy level that surprised me, which is really important.

That's the thing that I tell people is if they ask, like, how do I prepare for your show? And my answer is, have a face that's helpful. Have something to say and make an elevator pitch. Whatever it is that you've done, whether it's writing a book or creating a podcast, whatever, convince me. Pull me in in the first 30 seconds. And I later go back and I do my own intro and outro for each episode. Just sort of. I'm from the old school of public speaking where you tell them what you're going to tell them, then you tell them, then you tell them what you just told them.

Yes, I love that model. That's our model here, too.

And so I do those on my own after the fact, but I can't introduce it in the moment because I don't know what we're about to talk about. It's going to be a surprise to me, too. And so I just asked them, like, just be prepared to introduce yourselves. That's it. And I've had people who have come on and been like, yeah, my name's Jo and I have a podcast. And that's where they stop. And I'm like, oh, it's going to be one of those. Okay. And then I had another where I had the mother of a murder victim come on the show, and she was having a hard time kind of getting investigation to happen on the case. And I don't know how that if she ended up connecting with me, this is maybe a year ago. And she started and she introduced herself and she talked for the next 45 minutes straight. I didn't say a word because she needed to be heard. She needed to tell her story in the order that she needed to say it. She needed to just know that somebody was paying some attention to her, I think. And it went really well. And then toward the end, I started talking more because I decided before I ever started my show that I Didn't want it to feel like work. So I was gonna inject myself into my episodes. I was gonna tell my own stories of what came up, that kind of thing. But you gotta read your guest, too. And so if somebody is nervous or doesn't know how to get the ball rolling, you gotta be prepared to help them roll that ball. And if somebody has all of these words bottled up and just hasn't been able to feel heard yet, then you gotta know how to just be like, you go, and I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna stay out of your way and let you do the thing. And that's my skill. That's the thing that I am good at. And so part of, I think in our culture, perhaps especially for women, we're real good at saying what we're not good at, but we struggle with identifying our strengths and owning them.

I think that's so, so true. You're absolutely right. Well, I want to right now because I want to highlight your strengths that I see them because I talk to so many podcasters here and you have some significant strengths, and they're the reason your show is so bingeable. And I'm telling you, I. I mean, I'm very sure you have some really good numbers. I didn't actually look at that. I try not to look at your numbers. I want to, even though I know you've done a lot of episodes and I really hope your downloads are good. But I'm not going to look at that as a criteria because there's things to learn from everyone, and so it's not important to me. But I'm very sure you have good numbers. And the reason you do is because people are binging on your show and they're not missing an episode, and that is critically important. So what is the binge factor? And the binge factor for ignorance was bliss is so much of the content is the word that I'm searching for is that it is so energetic, like, it's so passionate. Whether you're like, disagree with them, you agree with them, you get them to have an energy level that is higher than they started with. And I'm sure, like those people, right, you're bringing this energy into this and deep knowledge. You combine the two things together and you're heading them in direction to talk about it, that their passion is coming through. I don't think you've had a dispassionate, at least not from the episodes. I skimmed and I skimmed about 10, so I didn't hear a Single dispassionate guest. And that's hard to do on a regular basis, I can tell you. It's really hard to do. And that has to be you. You're making that happen. And there's a little bit of the energy that's going on in your show is because of the structure of it, because you flip back and forth, because you do your introduction after the episode, there's a different to you having already gone through the interview, enjoyed it, and then done an introduction on it. Right. It's a different energy and that changes things. And it's going to make people listen all the way through and come to your next episode and go back and listen to some from the beginning. So that's your absolute binge factor in ignorance was bliss.

And that's the thing that I think also there's not a pressure to binge, which helps because I think people feel bad better about binging when they're not.

Like when they want to come back.

For the next episode. But because there are some topics I'm gonna hit that you don't care about. You know, whether it's true crime stuff or whether it's tabletop role playing games or leatherworking or. I've talked to sex workers, I've talked to priests, I've talked to serial murderers, like on my show. And you can decide which of those, by the way, is the scariest.

And leather workers, maybe I have a little bit of experience in leather. So, like, I not like that kind of experience. But good for you. Actually textiles. I'm actually a textile designer here. So I've been in leather factories and I know they're kind of scary.

It's wild stuff. And that's the issue. Each one, like, I never know where it's going to go. And that keeps me focused and that keeps the guest engaged. And I've only had one or two where I walked away going, that didn't go well. I wonder why. And usually the answer is there was something going on with the guest where they didn't wanna. Yeah, and that's fair. You can't make that happen. And I learned with one woman, for instance, after we were done, I look at every conversation as like playing catch. And that sometimes you're tossing a kickball or a tennis ball back and forth. And this one woman, I felt like I was playing catch with a bowling ball, you know, And I would pick this thing up and I would heave it over and it would land at her feet with a thud. And I'd be like.

Can you pick that up. Can you toss it back? And she would pick it up. And then like, I try not to ask. There are such things as stupid questions. Like people say, like, there's no such thing as a stupid question. Of course there are. We know there are. That's why we say it. And I ended up asking her, and I don't want to identify too much about what it was specifically she did, but I was like, what got you into this thing? And as soon as I said it, I like internally rolled my eyes several times around my head because I was like, oh, I hate asking the stupid questions. But she was so nervous. And I learned later that I was her first ever interview.

Her first ever interview. You're good to know that beforehand, right?

Tell me, tell me this and then we'll take more time and I'll talk you through what to expect. And one of the things that I think that has made the show roll well and pulled that energy up is that I've learned to explain to people what to expect.

This is what it's like something really interesting. So I listen backwards. That's kind of how I do it. So I'll go and I'll go to your most recent episode because when I'm testing out and seeing how a podcast, it's where you've gotten to, right? Like it's your current destination. So I do listen to that first. And then I'll go back to usually somewhere in the beginning, in the first 100, if you've got as much as you have. And then I'll skim into the middle to anything that just looks personally interesting to me. And I'll just pick and choose. And I was surprised by, in your most recent episode that you had this external introduction. So you had someone who is actually the wife of a guest from a previous episode. And that's how she introduces herself. And she's saying that she was really interested in this episode. She talked about why she liked it and it was this really great introduction. And I thought that makes me want to listen to it even more like than if you had done it. And I thought that was such an interesting model. So then I had to go back and like skim through some and check and see. And I was like, wait, she's not doing here. And then I finally scrolled up to see that you had this one 10 minute episode and it looked like the break point where you were going to explain why this happened. And that was exactly it. You explained to your audience that you were having health issues, that you were going to take a little break, that you were going to do some interesting things, that you reached out to get help. And the fun thing is, is that I think your help really did you write. Like, they did a great job for you. And that's a testament, I think, to how great you are. Like, they wanted to do a good job for you. They wanted to really step in for you. And they did it just fantastic. And it has an interesting energy of its own.

Well, that's always been exciting. So it's been. I think it's three times now since I started the show where I have had to take breaks, usually twice. Medically related, I just had spinal surgery. So that's why for me, there was a problem with anesthesia. And so my throat was messed up. And so as a podcaster, like, that's.

Not gonna work for you?

Me not talking for a month. My kids were like, great. And I was like, not so much. So that was the thing. I had another surgical procedure a couple years ago, and then in 2019, my father died. And so when that happened, I stepped back for a while. And each time I've got this backlog of conversations that I made with people that I don't wanna throw out, I don't wanna not use. They're great content. I just can't introduce it right now. I can't do anything with it right now. And here's what I've learned is that I don't let the genre that I'm publishing in define my community. So there are amazing true crime podcasters out there. There's some of my closest friends, and I appreciate them deeply. There are just some that are not my thing. Fine. And so I don't define myself by that genre, but I had this amazing community in podcasting. It's kind of like anything where if you're really excited about knitting, about model trains, about podcasting, pick a thing. Talking to other people that get excited about the same thing you do is magical. And so when I knew that I was going to have this spinal surgery and they told me I wasn't going to be able to speak for a week or so, but I was like, well, let's expect longer. And I was correct that it took longer. I'm still not 100% yet, but I just kind of put out the word, like, can anybody help me? I will do all of the editing. I just need an intro and an outro for each episode. And I had like 10 people step up and say, we gotcha.

I wonderful.

And it's so Fun to hear because I kind of think when I'm done, I take a couple of notes about, like, here's what I might want to introduce, or here's what I want to remember to point out when I released the episode. But then hearing what they come up with instead is just amazing and magical because sometimes they pick up on things where I'm like, I never even heard that. Good for me.

Right. I think that that's really so interesting because I think it would be hard for some podcasters. There's a lot of ego out there. Like, you know, you know, there's a lot of ego out there. And they'll be like, that wasn't my way. That wasn't my takeaways. But you just are comfortable and flexible enough to say, you know what, I'm just going to give myself some grace, let what I need healing to happen, and I'm going to let this community go. And they stood up, right? Like, they stood up and did some really fun. Like, I have to say, I really enjoyed some of those. And I think you should do it more regularly. Like, not all the time, because I do want to hear what you think. But let them in once a month or something and have. Have it happen. Yeah.

It's always an interesting experiment. And it's one of those. Like, the main reason I don't very often is because another one of the things that they, whoever they are, the experts say you should do is plan things out so that I know exactly when I'm gonna release a given episode. And I don't release episodes chronologically to when I record them.

Yeah.

Because I don't wanna do two authors back to back or two podcasters or whatever. I want it to mix up a little bit.

I do the same thing. I mix them up too. Cause I wanna have like, different types of podcasters, different genders. I want to have a mix of people as well to that engages everyone. So I do the same thing. I'll batch them up and then I mix them up as I produce them.

Right. And so I don't know what to ask for people to do. I don't know. So I've thought about it because it's fun for me as well. But usually what I tend to do is I sit down and I look at my book and I figure out, like, okay, Here are the 10 episodes that I had recordings that I have saved up. I'm going to do this one. And so I don't really have the time generally I have to plan. I do a lot more Planning and a lot more thought and deliberation in terms of the order of things when I have somebody else do an introduction. But, yeah, the people who get really possessive about it's my show and it has to be done my way. And I'm like, okay, yeah.

I mean, I think they're missing out on the opportunities of experimentation, which is what you've done here in a brilliant way. And I think that's really what's working for you. And I want to ask you, though, I bet you early on you had a really different model for selecting guests than you do now. What is that process for you?

My first several episodes, I didn't think that was going to happen at all. And then it was sort of back and forth, whether it was going to be a regular thing or not. And mostly it became this very sort of incestuous pool of other podcasters talking to other podcasters. And that's what it was. Which was fine. That worked fine. And okay, funny story. And I'm not making this up. I got a Twitter DM from random stranger, which happens as a podcaster saying, I am a book publicist. Would you like to record with this author? And I was like, sure, sounds cool. And then as I'm talking to this publicist, there were certain ways that they were using words, and I was like, this rings the bell. Is this Chris? And it turns out, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's Chris. Chris, who was one of my previous guests. Chris, who's a convicted murderer and is doing business using a contraband cell phone from inside a supermax prison in Mississippi. And so now you could have that image in your head whenever you're talking to a publicist. They might be in a supermax prison in Mississippi. And. But I mean, good for him, right? Like, if you're going to do a cottage industry, better that than drugs is what I'm saying. Yeah. And so it started with him trying to get his authors featured in places. And then over time, I don't really know how it happens. I'll get cold calls from agents or from publicists, that kind of thing. And then over the past year, an acquaintance of mine was involved in the development of an online clearinghouse of sorts, of where it's called Pod Match. That's how we met. That's how we met. And it's going into. You can either create profiles for yourself as a potential guest or as a potential host, and I'm on there as both.

Yeah.

Because I show up on a lot of other shows like this, but I also have people come on. And I have met people that I never would have met, never would have crossed paths with at all.

I know there's something brilliant about Alex's. It's. Alex Sanfilippo is a good friend of mine too. And like, his AI is really brilliant. I don't know what he did, how he trained it or what he did, but it's really working for me too.

Well, it's. That one's working well. There's another one called Pod Booker the South. It's similar and they function a little different. They match you up a little bit differently, but either way it's people who are looking to appear on podcasts and sometimes it's people where I'm like, oh, absolutely not. And you have to learn how to guiltlessly say, no, I'm not.

You're just like, pass. I like how simple it is actually.

Pass.

Like just dumb.

Absolutely not. And then there's other people where I'm like, okay, you want me on your show? Then I guess that's a thing that we are going to do now. What do you know what's going to happen?

Yeah, I know. I love that.

It's been super fun just to be open to saying yes to almost everyone with the asterisk that I do have a no list. And I think that's important that sometimes we get so stuck on the grind and on get anybody on and being desperate to get anybody on your show in big names. Don't worry about a good get. Don't worry about the size of the audience or the number of books they've released or whatever the case is. Because sometimes those people, like if I have actors come on, for instance, you can tell when they're in PR mode. And that's more work to break them out of PR mode into sound bites. Yeah, stop giving me exactly the little sound bites and the little. Just answer my question or ask me questions or just talk to me. We're not on Oprah here. Like, you don't get a car. You don't get a car. You don't get a car.

It's not a 30 second radio spot or TV interview.

And so sometimes it's harder. And so don't worry so much about a good cat. Like one of the most. I don't have favorite episodes because I feel like that's choosing between my children, which of course, as a parent I do. I just don't admit it out loud.

See, I tell each one of them they're my favorite child, so they all believe it.

Yeah, well, but sometimes they're all equally my least favorite, so there's that, too. But one of my most impactful episodes came about sort of as a dare. A bunch of us were in an online happy hour of sorts during the pandemic, and this one individual just had neat stories and neat hobbies. And I was like, you should come on my show. And they were like, I don't want to do that. I'd be boring. I don't know what I would talk about, which I get all the time. And another person who was in the happy hour reprimanded me of, well, they said no, so you shouldn't push. And I immediately hopped into this person's DMs and was like, okay, now I really want you on my show, actually.

Because I'm like, that now. It's a dare.

Now to dare. Exactly. And the answer is like, okay, oh, sure. And I told him, I said, whether it's interesting or not is not your problem. That's my problem. Your problem is just show up and talk to me. And so I had no idea, like, just absolutely no idea where this was going to go. And about five minutes in, we're past the introduction phase, and they made a comment fairly offhandedly to say, yeah, I was diagnosed with autism when I was in my 30s, and I hadn't realized it before, and it's changed my life. And I was like, that's where it is. That's where we're going. Because I had so many questions, and I'm not that directed and deliberate in the moment, but I was just caught by that. Like, tell me what that is. Like, why is that a positive thing? Because a lot of people might imagine that a diagnosis of autism isn't something to celebrate. But in fact, understanding and feeling understood is tremendously important. Right?

They had. They were like, I'm not crazy. I have a diagnosis. I feel right. It's a thing.

You know, it makes sense. And the number of. I still now, this was like two years ago that this went up. And still now I get emails and DMs from people saying, I'm gonna call my doctor. I think this is what I have. I understood what you were saying. I think differently about my family. I understand. I've had one woman who said, I never understood my child before, and I do now. So this has changed my life.

And I was just like, feels so good.

Like, you know, like, this is magical.

So that's more than downloads. That's more than, like, you know, you're right. It's Better than a big get. Well, we were like, I keep letting you go here and I really do want to get to this one question that I think everybody's going to really care about and get. And that's what I really want to understand is, so you started this whole thing by telling your husband that you were going to do a podcast. And he was like, okay, so now that you've been doing it as long as you have, what is that big return on investment for you and what is it for him? Like, he's like, oh, she's doing great. This is amazing. I'm not going to interfere.

For me, it's a feeling of competence and productivity. I don't make a ton of money, but I make enough to pay for hosting and a nice new desk which you can't see, but it's lovely and it's self sustaining. So I don't feel like I'm a drain on the family finances to have this hobby of mine. But it's more than that. It's, it's. I tell people that I get paid like part time wages for full time work. So it's more than a hobby. But so I think what my husband gets out of it is seeing that spark that really went dark for me for a while and that's there for me. Like, he doesn't listen to the show. My kids don't listen to the show because they hear enough of me. Like they're all tired of me. But it'll be there eventually. I think all of us can relate to that feeling of I've lost someone and now I realize I don't have a recording of their voice. Yeah. And I'll never. And my kids have like months and months worth of recordings of their mother's voice if they so choose down the road someday. So that's magical. And just connecting with people. I've made the closest friends ever this way. I'm not.

You have an incredible network from what I can hear and the relationships that you build over the course of your shows anyway, I can see you're just like adding to your group.

She just always, you know, it's, yeah, just come into the fold, come hang out. We make a blanket for it. It's fine. It's good, we hang out.

So I'm sure that it's a little bit, I'm going to say challenging to compete in such. The true crime space is bit crowded as I've discovered as I was doing some research over there because I was like, you said that on a show and I Was like, is that really true? Is it super crowded? And I went to check it out and everyone and their brother is starting a podcast in the true crime space because it's trending and it's popular. But they're also quitting at a much faster pace than any genre that I've seen. They're quitting faster because it's a lot more work. I think that's just my personal view on especially if they're going that scripted model, it's a lot more work. But I think that probably garnering listenership is not as easy in the general space. What did you do that you think really helped you build that strong listener base, that community?

I stopped checking downloads.

You stopped it? I love that.

So my father died just past the one year mark my show. So it was New Year's Eve 2017. So it was February 1, 2018, so about a month before I started my first episode. And my father died in April of 2019. So I took this break and I had a bunch of friends do intros for the episodes that I had sort of in the can. And then I thought about like, what do I want to do differently when I come back? And I hadn't given up on true crime quite yet. That happened a couple of months later. But one of the things that I decided was I don't want to check downloads. I obsessed over that. It's too Easy to check 27 times a day and worry about how many downloads you have. And you start to wonder, was this episode better than another? And I don't think downloads are a good metric for that. Being more popular doesn't make it better, it just makes it more popular. And so I decided I'm gonna stop checking downloads. I check about once a month, once every other month, because I'm coming very close to the million download mark. Yeah, I bet you are. When that happens, and it may have, you should celebrate. Yeah, exactly. And so what I did was for the first five times that I rolled over a hundred thousand, so a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand and so on. I did ask me anything episodes and then I did one at 750,000. And so I know that I'm coming closer to that.

Coming up to that.

Yeah. But otherwise I don't check because it just stresses me out. And I start to compare episode to episode and I don't want to do that because it's meant to be. Each episode should be standalone. And so you listen if you're interested in and skip it if you're not. And that's okay. So you build the listenership, I think, by engaging in a genuine way, figure out what you're good at and admit what you're good at. Like I said, women in our society aren't supposed to acknowledge, like, yeah, I'm really good at having conversations with people, But I've described my show to people as if you're at a. Like a party and it's crowded and you overhear a really interesting conversation and you don't really want to take part because you're at a party and you hate parties, but you want to hear the conversation. That's what I'll do.

That's a great description of it. Right.

That's what it's at. And that I'm open to almost anybody. So I do have my no list. I have a list of 15 people maybe, that are an absolute hard no because of behavior that I've seen online or offline, and that keeps you separated.

So that it really distinguishes you separately from. Not that kind of shit.

Exactly. Well. And because there's this tendency to say, yes, I think again, being female in our society, there's this tendency to, like, if somebody comes to me and says they want to be on my show, you want to be like, oh, great, okay, yes. And I've learned to be like, wait, let me check my no list and just make sure, even though I know who's on it, it's still helpful to just confirm, like, oh, I'm not a good fit, not right for you. And so that way, whenever I'm talking to somebody, I'm genuine who you hear on my show. Obviously, I'm different from episode to episode because I'm talking to different people, but that's what I am in real life. And so I think that's what people like is the feeling of. It's just genuine. Like, there are sometimes where I ask questions and they fall flat. There are some times where I say a thing, and my guess is like, no, no, you're completely wrong. Don't expect me to say that.

So you're about to cross a million downloads. Congratulations. Because that is huge. You're in the elite podcasting community. I'm going to tell you that. There's so many that never make it that far, so congratulations on that. And you're coming off of a break that was kind of forced on you. Is there something different in the future? For ignorance was bliss.

Ignorance was bliss. No, it makes me happy as it is. And so that's just going to keep going. Before every episode, I have a Spike of social anxiety. And I've learned, ignore that. Come down and turn on the computer anyway and talk to the people anyway, because I always feel better as soon as we get rolling. So that's sort of my bread and butter of sorts. I just finished my first audiobook, so that was kind of fun to do a narration there. That's a very different style. You have the equipment, but it's a different use of the equipment. When I'm doing Ignorance Was Bliss, I don't have to care about the tone and timbre of my voice, but if I'm reading another chapter of an audiobook, I have to be pretty consistent. So that was a new sense of.

And you can burn out your voice really quickly if you go too long, so.

Exactly. And so things have like, I've had two other shows, both of which have faded for different reasons, in large part because they started to feel like ignorance was bliss 2.0. And I don't want that because I already have that. So I've thought about it. I've been considering doing a scripted show. A couple of different ideas have sort of come across my brain right now. I want to get back on my feet in terms of regular recording and regular publishing, and then we'll see. There's no rules in podcasting, and that's the best part.

That is so, so true. Well, Kate, I'm so glad you came on the show. I'm so glad Podmatch matched us. So everyone, you have to check out Ignorance Was Bliss. There's so many episodes to choose from. You are going to find one that you really want to listen to and check out. Even if you think this is not your genre, go check it out. Because it certainly surprised me. All the ones that I kept going, oh, I want to listen to that one next and that one next. So it's going to surprise you, too. But listen to some great techniques. A podcaster who really knows what she's doing, who's got it all dialed in. Kate, thank you again for being on the show. So appreciate you. I look forward to seeing what happens next, where you go from here. What's going to happen after a million. I can't wait, right?

Well, I have no idea. That's one of the fun parts.

Well, I'm along for the ride and I can't wait to see it, so let's keep in touch.

Okay.

I mentioned during the interview that I can tell when someone's a podcast listener because there's usually something interesting about the way that they formatted their show. The things that they highlight, the way that they do some introductions and other things. And Kate's isn't from necessarily being a listener, but out of necessity. Those special intros where the guests do their own intro came out of a necessity where she really didn't have the ability ability to do some interviews for a time. And so that happened. And so she got other podcasters to help her. I think that's just so fascinating that she found a way to make it work, a way to keep going, a way to keep her show thriving. And I'm fascinated by that. I am so impressed by the style of her show, the way that her show dives into some of these topics, but also the fact that she has passion and excitement for this and this is fun and interesting to her and an outlet for her. It's coming across in the passion of the show. So I definitely want you to check out the show, listen to it, get some perspective on some different things that you can try and different ways to format your show, but also just different energy that you could bring to it as well. So check out Ignorance Was Bliss everywhere you listen to podcasts, including this one. And I'll be back next time with another podcast host and a really different perspective on podcasting here on the Binge Factor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.