https://www.listennotes.com/e/0c53d07d34494dc2a78bd28ff4da746d

Protect your brand, product or invention from the hazards of consumer product launching and go from idea to product to big brand with guidance from retail product design and development experts Tracy and Tom Hazard. Get the insider secrets to put the right things in the right order with the right resources so you can out design, outsource and out profit your way to retail success.

Hey everyone, Tracy Hazard here on Product Launch Hazards and I have a really cool new company to bring to you today. well, they're not new, they're five years old, but new to you maybe. Definitely new to me. So, you know, I love it when I can find a brand that is doing something innovative. It's not just that they have a really cool product and they have made some cool features and added it to it, but when they're really reinventing the model for how things are sold or how things are designed or delivered, that's a sign of a company that has some deep experience and knowledge and growth and we can learn so much from them. So that's the company I'm bringing you today. The company is called Play, P-L-A-E, and Play is the next gen global lifestyle brand where fun meets function. It's designed for the imaginative and crafted for the creative and don't I just love that. They create shoes with premium materials, biometric science, all the stuff that elite athletes get, but they have fresh insights in philosophy and they're the first lifestyle brand to start with kids. They launched entirely online in 2013 and play has evolved taking their wildly successful approach to adults in 2017. We're going to talk about how that happened. On the journey they started asking themselves and the world, do you still play? It's a great universal concept that play is fundamental, but so often we forget about that in the design and development and cutthroat world of product, absolutely, in retail especially. But Play believes that there's an artificial line when it comes to play between adults and kids, and their goal is to erase that line and harness the power of play for everyone. Started by two founders, Ryan Ringholz and Jonathan Speer. Ryan is the founder and chief designer, and he's internationally recognized brand expert and designer. He was the lead designer at Puma. He launched the billion dollar lifestyle division and he went to Diesel and grew footwear to over 300 million. And then UGGs, where he created the strategic plan that grew the business from 250 to 1 billion in five years. He has launched his own men's footwear line and consulted for dozens of the world's best brands. Jonathan Speers is the CEO and he is a 15 year startup veteran. Most recently he was co-founder and CEO of NetBase. a leading provider of social media marketing solutions to Blue Chip customers like Coca-Cola, JD Power, and SAP. And he is an alumnus of HBS and prior to joining Play, served at Altos Ventures, where he mentored and advised numerous CEOs. So they've got quite an interesting team and I'm so glad to introduce you to them and hear how they've managed to scale in such a difficult and challenging industry. listening to what they have to say because their scaling advice is essential no matter what industry you're in. So Ryan and Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you guys?

Doing great. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, glad to be here.

I am excited to talk about how difficult this might have been and how many things you had to do to overcome such an entrenched branded community. So You guys decided to go into, I'm gonna kids sneakers, right? Kids shoes. And that's where you started in. And then you moved into adult shoes, which going from kids to adults is something already that most companies cannot accomplish. But taking on adult shoes in any category, especially in casual wear, is almost crazy. I'm gonna call it. What made you guys think that this was gonna be worth doing easy? Like what got into you five years ago?

Yeah, no, it's a great question. You know, it's funny though, is my career and background has always been in the adult shoe side of it. And so in a weird and maybe twisted, crazy way, however you want to say it, doing kids shoes in the beginning was actually the harder and scarier part for me than this idea of taking on, as you say, adults. Because I've done that many times, I guess, throughout my career, the adult side. And so that felt very comfortable.

So what's scary to mostly everybody else, like thinking about, you know, you're going in against New Balance, Nike, like all of these companies. You're like, oh, no, I'm good with that because I'm in the industry. So it doesn't seem difficult.

Now, you know, that's a really interesting perspective. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's with anything is when, when you're doing something you haven't done before, that is the part that feels the most daunting. And I think for me, I hadn't made, I hadn't designed kids shoes prior to our initial launch. And it was always the vision to have this whole lifestyle brand. But starting with kids because that was the, based on this idea of a new depreciate for your background in design is around design thinking and this notion of kid thinking. And I always found that if you can get as close to thinking like a kid in terms of how you approach a problem, you approach it with the idea that there's no boundaries, there's no limits, and there's no, that everything's possible. And so that was really the onus for launching the brand and around this idea. then if you're going to create something that's rooted in that notion of kid thinking, kid design, then it only makes sense that you would start with kids. And especially if you're going to have a brand that's all about having fun and play and experiences and ideation. And so it really was the natural path it felt for us in launching, even though it feels completely counterintuitive on paper.

Well, so Jonathan, what about you? Were you scared? Were you just like, no, I got this.

I'm not scared by this at all. Well, it's funny. You said something there. You said, you know, we took on something challenging. I have to say, you know, we never thought it would be easy, but we were inspired by what we were trying to do. There's so many brands out there that stood for fight, compete, win. That it just seemed to us natural that there needed to be a lifestyle brand that stood for and stands for play. There was skepticism when we started. not just about where we were starting in terms of product category, but five years ago, it was still a new idea to be selling product only online and to have this Next Gen, what we now call Next Gen brands, Instagram brands, but to be really rooted and committed to the new model of how you go direct to consumer and reach the market. And that was a new idea not long ago. And, you know, was it scary? It was exciting because of what we wanted to build, which felt big. And also because we had a chance to build something in a really new way, which is this online community and social media driven, online driven model.

I joke about it that, you know, there's that sort of saying in entertainment that you never want to act with kids and kids and animals, right? And that's, it's kind of the same in design. It's a flooded market, but all times the kids are very picky and like they have their own mind and most adults don't understand it. And so somewhere along the line, that's where it goes wrong. Some committee somewhere and some corporation decided something that kids would like and they went, no, that's not gonna be us, right? And so, and so especially in today's generation where it's harder and harder to advertise to them, right? When we were kids, we were all watching commercials, you know, Sunday mornings. Saturday mornings, whatever it was. We were watching all those commercials and stuff was pushing our faces and we were like, yes, we want that. That looks exciting. Nowadays, my kids are watching, you know, completely filtered stuff on their iPads and their Kindles and they don't get any ads at all unless they're watching YouTube. So you have a marketing challenge. You got to get to the parents.

And get to the kids. But a lot of what you're saying is really kind of the essence of how the models changed because it used to be so much about push marketing. It was, you know, the designers go off into a lab. some basement someplace and they design for six or nine months.

If Ryan knows that well, so do I.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you've been there, we've all seen it. And, you know, when the consumer finally sees the product after, you know, teaser billboards, when it announces and it's coming in three months, you know, it's all push. And that's what's been, you know, I think in so many ways what we're doing here at Play wouldn't have been possible without these new tools to really just fundamentally reverse the model. and to work with the community from the very beginning. Because we're not trying to do that. We're not trying to invent something and push and hope they like it. We're trying at our best to build something with our audience, with our community, and hope that something we're building together, that really takes fundamentally a ton of the risk out of it, changes the process around completely. Right, so let's tell everyone about exactly.

What you guys are doing and what you've built with Play. So tell us a little bit about the model. How does it work and how are kids involved in the process and now adults?

From a product standpoint, I would say that it's totally different than how I've ever worked in past life experiences. And to earlier your point about this notion of designing in a lab or designing in a cave, you know, locked away, I think one of the things that I learned throughout, you know, progressively through my career, and sometimes it takes a little bit of time to come to these realizations, because I think when you start out, probably not just design, I would imagine this is true. I mean, this is obviously I speak from a design perspective, but I would, I imagine it's true of many types of business enterprises in general, it's very easy to come in with your own preconceived notions and vision of what you want to do. It's really hard to listen to people and to interpret and internalize a lot of what they're saying and to accept it, but then to be able to put your perspective on that and then reintroduce it. And that's kind of the process that we go through with play, and it was unique from the beginning in that We're listening to what our community are asking for from experiences and use cases and environments. And then we're able to go and work with them to collaborate and create together new ideas and new concepts. And then we're able to explain why. And I think that's the other big part of it that gets lost in this whole process in this back and forth and give and take that can happen in this new world of digital engagement where We can create something and say, this is why we did this. And a lot of the products we have in the market now wouldn't have seen the light of day in the old model.

Isn't that interesting? It's like, you know, that we have had to not only upend our marketing, our sales process, but we've now had to upend our design process as well.

For sure.

Yeah, that is a really interesting model. So tell me a little bit about the shoes. Let's talk about the shoes because they're cool. So of course, links will be in the post here and will be in the article to make sure that people you can take a look at them. But let's talk a little bit about the design of them. What's so unique about them?

You know, the big thing is we really focus on this notion and again, you're familiar coming from a design world of inclusive design around the idea of trying to, if you design for an outlier for extreme use cases, you can oftentimes, if not always, come up with a better solution for everybody. And that's been our approach with design and product. and it's led to innovations and new ideas and approaches for the entire construction of the shoe. The way it functions is completely different than any shoes previously, and that goes to your inner space system where for adults, where the soles are interchangeable and can be customized to fit every individual because no two feet are the same. Interesting. And we can, you know, we could speak for hours on that.

Is there some 3D printing involved here or are we just- There is, yeah.

That'S a big part of it.

We'Re gonna get to that at some point.

We can just jump right there now. Yeah, so the insole, the inner space system comes with, depending on the model, but there's two available insole heels that the shoes are constructed so that you can wear them without any insole at all. And so barefoot, which is a zero drop. And for people who wanna have that kind of natural barefoot where obviously became popular during the born to run movement and I think it continues to some degree. And then we have our base insole, which gives you a five millimeter lift. And we use open cell cushioning from Eco Ortholite and Poron, which are the best in the world. And so you get this incredible rebound and cushioning, but also support. And then for people who want to have a little bit more of a lift and a little more arch, there's the cushions, but we call space foam. And that can, that fits in, it locks in like a block and under the heel. And so that gives you another 10 millimeters of lift. So 15 millimeters.

I'm wishing I was wearing your shoes yesterday because I had on, the floor was so hard in this building. I was giving a talk in. It was like concrete floors and I was feeling that you need that extra cushion then.

Exactly, exactly. And then you can 3D print it. So we open source the whole thing. And so you can tune it, all of those options you can tune then to fit how you want to wear it, because at the end of the day, you're the only one who knows if it's comfortable or not.

Oh, wow. So have you really had to reinvent the sort of whole manufacturing and delivery process then on top of it all?

Yeah, absolutely.

Wow. So you guys have taken on a gigantic challenge. I mean, you reinvented everything along the way here. and took on a very entrenched industry. I mean, you're talking about you've worked for some of the companies, so you know what it's like. I mean, Puma, New Balance, Nike. Like, I mean, this is, it's full of big brand names. And the kids market is very cheap and disjointed. Like, that's the thing that I think about when I think about that is like, you know, you, your kids are growing, their feet are growing so fast. So you start, you wonder whether or not you should spend any money on shoes at all. Of course they want to look cool. and my daughter just had her first day of school, had to have new shoes for that. So, you know, there is that part of it. But wow, I mean, you really had to reinvent everything. And so how is it going for you?

It's going fantastic. You know, at this point, we've shipped, you know, in the millions of units and built, you know, I think above all else, you know, we really look at as sort of the sign of our success is a community that is active, engaged, and passionate about what we're doing. both from the brand side, they get it. The world needs more play. And we talk about that all the time. And I think that is really resonating with folks. But then also as a company, the way we try to be transparent and work directly with our audience to try and create the brand together. And so seeing their passion for what we're doing is really kind of the.

Most rewarding of all.

We're in a time where there's a real shake-up and challenge for some of the established brands. And that's tough because there's so much technology and so much change that a lot of folks, legacy brands with a lot of investment in real estate and some of those types of investments, it's no secret that it's a real struggle. But the flip side is that for those of us brands are starting with a clean slate. When you're starting with a digitally native platform right from the beginning, it's just a super exciting time. The time to market is so much faster. The ability to experiment and try things and use data And it requires a lot. It requires really, to your point, before requires rethinking how the supply chain works, but also how you do go-to-market and marketing. But the opportunity is amazing to really be able to create something clean on this whole new platform. So we look at it a little less of the challenge of the other guys and a little more about just this blank canvas as a whole new type of business model. And we get to be at the forefront of helping to create that, and that's just exciting.

You know, I think you guys are right. I mean, you're at a place of giant opportunity because brand loyalty has really fallen off in a very strong way with this millennial generation and beyond. And so we don't see that, that level of, you know, committed loyalty to whatever the brand is. I think that there is some amount of newness that everybody wants to try, but then there becomes a new loyalty. It's a raving fan loyalty that you, you earn. that makes you fabulous. I mean, I look at my business today and my business is, I just looked at the numbers, it's like 82% referral. So, I mean, you know, I have 250 shows on my podcast platform and they all came, you know, 82% of them came from referrals. That's amazing. And, you know, congrats. That's fantastic.

Yeah.

But that's what you guys are having happening too, is that you develop this online only to begin with, this direct to consumer. and then moving into that, you just earned their loyalty. So that in and of itself is a different way to brand build.

For sure. Although I would say that in some ways it's rooted in the most traditional way, which is word of mouth.

Right.

The way that that word travels is a little bit different.

Well, you know, we lost that somewhere in the middle, you know, probably when we were younger, somewhere around there it started to fall off because we just didn't have local stores as much anymore. They were now chains and I mean, I always think about that. I always thought it was such a shame when I saw merchandising shift from being regional to being national.

For sure.

That's when it started. That's when, to me, brick and mortar mass market fell apart. That's when I saw the decline starting to happen there. But, you know, it, you are doing, though, is really interesting. You've been in businesses. You've helped. I, you know, I noticed, I interviewed the founder of UGG boots, and I noticed that you, you brought UGGs. from, I think it was 300 million to a billion or something like that. Or more. I think it, yeah, 250 million to a billion in five years. So, you know, this is something that most brands are struggling with as well. That's sort of scaling side of it. So I am of the opinion that it's relatively easy if you've got a great product and a great market message and everything is your product market fit is there. It's fairly easy to get to a million dollars in sales. From that million to 10 million, it's excruciatingly hard because you've got to put systems in place. But from 10 million and beyond and getting above 300 million is incredibly difficult. What have you seen from the things that you've done, Ryan and Jonathan, that has really helped companies grow in those stages of scaling?

That's a great question. I think that you have to have obviously a resonance beyond just being a a product, a commodity, you know, and I think that's fundamental to having just the permission to grow to that level. And then you have to have really great product and really great design that answers the needs of the consumer group.

Yeah, I think that, you know, I think that's right because, you know, what you're saying is so, you know, in your example, I mean, did you go from kids to adults because they wanted it?

It sounds funny to say, but I can't tell you how many angry emails.

It's starting to pile up yet?

Yeah, I mean, there was somebody had commented, said, what's they, I think there's some explicit, you know, explicits in it, and they said, what is so bleeping hard about making the shoes bigger? Obviously, you know, unfortunately, that's not the reality because we in you know, historically, it had been the case in the industry where the inverse was true, where you would take an adult shoe and they call shrink it and pink it and make a miniature for kids. It turns out that's the worst thing, you know, to do for kids developing feet. And so we redesigned a whole from the kids business, we redesigned the whole platform and construction for kids specifically. So the idea of doing the inverse also didn't make any sense. And so we had a, you know, design.

It was like starting all over again. So it sounded simple to the, on the other side of, to us novices here going, yeah, just grow, just grow size. Luckily for me, I have really small feet, so I probably would have fit in your largest kid size. So I probably would have been okay, but it wouldn't have fit me right. So, you know, it wouldn't have been the right shoe for me. So interesting that you had that challenge. But they were demanding it. They were wanting you to scale. And that's a sign of a really good brand, a brand we want to do more business with.

I think so. And I think the other part of it that I'll say, and I think this has been, I would say if there's been a secret, if you will, a secret sauce to my success not just at Play, but in past lives. It's really finding balance in the product that you're creating. And by that, I mean you need to bring something new, something innovative, something perhaps a little challenging to the consumer, but also have it be familiar in some way. If you do something that's totally new and out there and extreme, you're going to get a lot of early adopters and people willing to experiment with something. And that's great. And that's really, you know, can grab a lot of attention. But if you want something to really scale, you really need it to be, have an element of newness and uniqueness and excitement, but feel approachable and comfortable with something we already know. And so it's like finding that balance, either be aesthetically or color-wise or a feel, like there's lots of ways to get about to strike that balance, but it's that balance is what's critical.

So, Jonathan, what about you? What have you seen? Because you've worked with a lot of startups. What have you seen really helps them go through those pain stages of scaling?

Yeah, I think there's a few things. I think, first of all, for a consumer company in particular, the company has to stand for something. And I think that a company that stands for play, that comes across in so many ways in the way we talk and the way we communicate and in who we are. And I think that's kind of job number one. I think then it's really the product. I think Ryan, I think agree with everything he said. I add some examples that really indicate, you know, he's designed on purpose. So I kind of lost my thread there. This will be one of those my redos if you don't mind, a Mulligan.

Go ahead.

Am I allowed a Mulligan?

Yes.

Thank you. I think the next piece is really approaching product design in a really deliberate way. where products exist for a reason and to solve really specific problems, not just to create a buck. And so some examples where Ryan's just done a brilliant job of that to play. For example, earlier this year, we launched our packables collection. And it's a line of super functional, super sleek, super versatile sneakers and ballet flat for women and even slippers. But they're designed to compress down to fit really, really well in your suitcase, right? Or in your purse or in your glove box. Because so often we all have the challenge now of, you know, we're traveling, we're on the road, we're living out of carry-ons or even just heading into the office and you want, you know, an extra pair of shoes. You don't want to have to bring something bulky.

Yes, I just did that. I just did that, right? Yeah, it's, yeah, exactly. We also, 'cause everything's weight restricted now. So we also want them to be lightweight. small thing, right? So you guys got it all going on there. That's very smart. Yeah, you're tapping into the lifestyle.

Yeah, exactly. So I think by really understanding the lifestyle and creating a product that fits that, this backpack is such a good example because it's, you know, it's a great looking sneaker. And by the way, it happens to compress down and it ships in a bag instead of a box and you can squeeze the air right out and it's just tiny and it goes anywhere with you. And so I think those kind of thoughtful you know, sort of design solutions to challenges people didn't even realize they had. You know, another one, you know, you were just in San Francisco, you realize that, you know, having lace-up shoes can be actually kind of, kind of a challenge, right? Because, you know, your shoe comes undone and then it's dragging and, you know, gosh knows what. You know, it's just knows what.

Oh, it's gonna be awful, yeah.

Yeah, and so, you know, having, you know, laceless solutions, you know, we have our stay lace and other kinds of solutions to avoid needing lace. Those are just really thoughtful solutions again that build that much more reason to try and enjoy a product.

So I'm so glad you're saying that because what you're doing is actually reinforcing something I say on the show pretty frequently is that part of what I believe is that there are models to follow to scale your supply chains, to scale your distributions, to scale all of those things, but a smart product strategy that's super sensitive to your brand and to the audience that you've built. that actually is a better scaling option than the typical, which is, well, if we just throw more products in, we'll be fine, right? And that's what most brands do when they try to get to that next stage. They're like, just let's throw more stuff in, people will buy it because they like us. And that's not true because if they're not thoughtful, as you're putting it, if they're not well designed, if they still don't have that brand integrity, it won't work.

When you start a business or an initial product or idea from the beginning, I think it's easy to to stop and think about what's the reason for being when you start from nothing. But I think as you grow, it becomes easy to get distracted and lose sight of that question. And I think that that question is important every time you make something new. Yeah.

I mean, I'm one of those people who would go in and I was the, I would call it the hatchet girl. Like, to go in and like cut people's lines tremendously because, and not because they weren't selling, like they would get all upset. Oh, but, you know, somebody was buying this. be like, no, they have to go because if you really want to get to that next stage, if you want to get to 300 million, you better start cutting these products because they're not working for your strategy. They're not working for your brand anymore. And that's a hard thing for someone to do after the fact. You're right. It's a lot easier to start with it and try to maintain that integrity and keep to the brand and keep to your audience what they're telling you and really listening to them. And you've built in a system that requires you to listen.

Oh yeah, we hear things really fast, you know, to Ryan's point, including the occasional, you know, why won't you make this with a lot of heat? I was reflecting, you know, I heard you in one of your previous podcasts, you were talking about, you know, great product and, you know, wouldn't it be nice if great product always wins? And so, you know, it's super important, I think, product that solves problems, but it's one piece of the puzzle. So, you know, I think the full set is to have a brand with real purpose that has a reason to be and then product that really solves solutions and is really great. And I think you have to do a great job of the sort of new dimensions that consumers are considering when they're considering what brands to trust these days. Because we're at a time of change when consumers are trying new things. But in some ways, loyalty ultimately is going to be a function of just execution and how well you do It's solving really basic things, but really important things like shipping on time, free shipping, doing a great job of handling return or exchange.

That was also what was occurring to me when you were talking about your packables being so much lighter weight. It's like, you know what, you're also helping the environment in that process because the more cost, the more space that it takes up, the more shipping, I mean, we're wasting fuel. You're doing a bunch of things that are behind the scenes actually saving money internally for the cost of what you're shipping, but also doing some real good to the rest of the world for all of us here. So, you know, you're solving bigger problems that maybe your customers don't even know about.

Yeah, it's absolutely deliberate because a lot of the cost of a product, from the standpoint of the environment, you know, the eco costs really comes down to how the product gets to you. It's the type of factory it's made in and what kind of, you know, energy they use all the way to, you know, the size of the product by doing something in a compression bag. We're able to make a product that ships across the ocean smaller. And unfortunately, everything that ships across the ocean right now is going to consume some fossil fuel. But we can do our part to make that better by shipping smaller packages. And that definitely was deliberate on our part.

I would add to that, the other part that I think gets lost in the conversations around ecological impact is the importance of not making things. and, you know, I don't care, you know, what the laundry list looks like in terms of, you know, how recycled or eco-friendly the materials are or the sourcing and everything. At the end of the day, if you make something, you're making an impact by nature of it. And so the greatest thing that you can do is create something that lasts a really long time and it doesn't have to be replaced. And that's one of the big focuses we've had from the beginning is making something really durable. that can be handed down and resold. And I think one of the things that I'm certainly the most proud of is that we have, if you look at our kids business, which has been around for five years now, we have an incredibly robust resale market. I think just speaks to that impact.

Wow, that's really great. Well, I can tell you, you know, multiple daughters to go through on shoes. So we go through a lot here. And if they make it to the second one, I'm like shocked. So, So that's a, yeah, exactly. So that's awesome because, you know, we really have to, it is really something that I've always looked at early on in my design career. I was lucky enough to work with Herman Miller and it was right at the early stages of them. We, I worked with them on the, with the Aaron chair. And then, so it's right around that time period that they start, you're sitting in one. Yeah. I'm still sitting in the one that I originally bought when they came out. Right. And so still sitting in that. That's amazing. Right. I mean, it's what 20 25 years later, it's 25 years later. And so, you know, thinking about that though, the durability of something, it really got and really not even just thinking about cradle to grave, as important as that sounds, it's hard to deal with. And then you can get into this design cycle of not being able to solve it and it frustrates you and then you don't do anything and that's not making progress in the world either. So I always loved the approach that they pioneered at I mean, 25 years ago, Herman Miller, when they started their Eco Council, which was, I don't care what we have to do as long as we make steps every single week, every single day, every single, you know, every single new product that we're going out, we're doing something more improved over the last time because we're going to get there. We're going to get to where it needs to be or where it can be at this point, its greatest potential of improvement. And I think that, you know, that's something that we all have to do. But today it has a huge cost implication. and in your world of competitiveness on these really low cost shoes that you're competing against. And it is, you know, some almost unbelievable pricing down there. Like I have walked into Walmart and those, we can't buy these shoes because it's like stealing. Like there's somebody, you know, we just stole somebody's labor to make these. There's nothing left in the cost of these. But I have enough knowledge. Most people don't. And so that's what, you know, you're competing against that. But so if you can make efficiencies elsewhere, and keep your costs on par with where you are in the marketplace. That's fantastic because now you're creating a much more sustainable and viable business, not just sustainable for the world, which is good too. Yes. So what's next for you guys? Where are you going next? Expanding products? Are you going to do more? I think you can't talk about it.

I was going to speak to the more from a product and next steps and where are the brands going standpoint. The Nordstrom part is, I'll let Jonathan answer that.

Okay.

From a product perspective, I would say that that's to be determined by the community. As I said earlier, a lot of what we're doing is more about listening to feedback and what people are looking for, what's missing, where there's opportunities. And a lot of times the opportunities lie in between the words. And so it's just paying really close attention and listening really carefully to how people are using products and not just ours but others and where there's opportunities to make improvements or new solutions.

So Jonathan, what about expansion of distribution and other things like that?

You know, I'd say really what drives us, as you can hear from all of our conversation, is really the community and being close to our community and our customer. And so that's really, you know, where 90% of our focus goes. We're delighted by The partnership with Nordstrom on the kids side, you know, so many parents want to go and get their kids measured in person and that's been just a phenomenal relationship. You know, we respect Nordstrom tremendously. But really as it relates to building our business, especially on the adult side, we're super excited about our direct consumer model and growing our online business and it feels like we're still at the very beginning of what we can do there. So it's full speed ahead. We keep creating great product. Keep finding new ways to tell the story and keep engaging with folks to learn from them how to do a better job for them.

So do you guys have any advice for those that are considering upending the business models in their industry or the product models? Or do you have any advice for them?

I think one thing I would say is it's important to look at, to work backwards through the process. I think it's really common to say, okay, I'm going to start a business and I want to make something or do something. And I think if you go the other way around and look at it through the consumer eye, which is very much this idea of design thinking and look at what does it need, what does it want, and then we're backwards to building a business toward that, then you have the opportunity to disrupt an entire industry.

Great.

Yeah.

You know, I agree with you on that. I think we so too often, well, so many product focused companies that we see, so many product focused brands, it's all about the product and it's really not about the need in the marketplace. Or if you've listened to any of my podcasts, I think I've probably said product market fit in every single one of them. And so it always comes up somewhere. And for me, when you have market first fit, that's an easier way to design. I don't know about you, Ryan, but I find that if I understand what the market's looking for. Whoa, I can design just about anything because now everything's on the table. When you go the other way, you gotta hope it fits. And I don't believe in hope. That's what we always say. Hope is not a plan.

I'd say my advice really is it's about the people because there are a lot of moving parts in any new venture, in any new product, in any new product launch. And it's so important to know what pieces you can do and where you need help, where you need complimentary parts. I think it's been the most fun actually since launching Play with Ryan is just the way we worked really well together but we both do completely different things and Ryan's so amazing at design and brand and talking to customers, everything else. And we need that and we need a lot of our creative activity to go into a bunch of those things. And we also need to solve some of the basic stuff so I can help with the boring stuff while he does all the cool creative stuff.

Well, you're so right. This is something I did want to mention so I'm glad you're saying that as a part of your sort of secret sauce that you guys got going on there, you've got a great team because you're balancing out your priorities really well between, you know, sort of a dual focus on operations and systems and growth and the product as well. And so when you have them at that top level and so often you don't, it's like very imbalanced. It's a sales driven organization or it's a design driven organization and there's not a lot of in between. You guys have made it so it balances I think you guys have hit on such a great partnership. So congratulations on that.

Thank you. I think it comes down to mutual respect.

Yeah.

So you need each other, that's right, to be successful.

I mutually respect Ryan.

Well, I thank you guys so much for being on and sharing so much with us today. And, you know, there's so much to learn here and I'm going to make sure everybody has links for play. Remember, I said at the beginning, it's P-L-A-E. Don't mess it up because you want to find them. And there'll also be links in the blog posts for this episode, so you'll definitely find them there. So Ryan and Jonathan, thank you for being on the show.

I really appreciate your time today.

It was a pleasure.

Thank you, Tracy. Our pleasure. Thanks, Tracy. So everyone, I'll be back next time with another episode of Product Launch Hazards. Maybe I'll bring you a really cool, interesting company and brand to talk to, or maybe we'll just bring you some hard nitty-gritty advice.

Never know what's coming up next. You'll just have to keep listening.

So thank you everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazard on Product Launch Hazards.

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