https://www.listennotes.com/e/bdc71a00bc8d4cd695cc49515db8af2b

This.

Is feed your brand with hosts Tom Hazard and Tracy Hazard.

Welcome to feed your brand. I'm Tom Hazard, along with my co-host Tracy Hazard. And today we've got a special guest to talk about self-publishing and profitable podcast book marketing. And I'll tell you, I think this is becoming a bigger Trend. I'm very excited for this conversation and for you all to hear from our special guest, who is Juliet Clark. Tracy, why don't you take it 'cause you and Juliet are like really close buddies, right?

We have a monthly call, but we're friends. And there is no one I trust with my book more than Juliet. Of course, my book still is not launched yet, which Juliet reminds me every time I see her. And that is where so many of you are in permanent potential. So hopefully this call today is gonna kick your button gear, as it always tries to do with me, and get that book going. But there are so many reasons for you to be book publishing right now. And we're going to talk about some of those reasons and how they can help with the podcast connection, making both book authors and podcast hosts more profitable in the process. Juliet Clark is the founder of Super Brand Publishing. She's a six-time author, speaker, and podcaster who spent the last 20 years helping authors, coaches, speakers, and small businesses all over the world build expert Audiences. She started out as a mystery novelist and is best known for her books Gypsy, Granny Heist, Dead by Dawn, and my favorite, Pitch Slapped. Her latest books, the Author's Success Handbook and Author Alchemy, will be out in July and September.

They should be out by now, right?

Aren't they both out or... They are. I think you've got an old bio there. I got an old bio. Yeah, I was like, wait a second. I think that's already out because I remember it when it came out. So, Juliette Clark, I'm so glad you're here, and I'm so glad we're going to talk about this model between, I'm going to say, the partnership that we can create between podcasting and authorship.

Yes, I'm excited about it, too.

Tell us a little bit about the self-published world right now, because I think it's a little different than it used to be.

You know, it's really different. For years and years, there was just traditional publishing. If you didn't get a contract with books that spoke to the mainstream, you weren't going to get published. And then self-publishing came along. Now we have small presses, we have hybrid publishing. So there are a lot of different ways to get your book published. Probably the biggest problem, though, is it's easy to publish. It's hard to get that book marketed. People always assume, well, everybody's going to buy my book, and they're often quite.

Surprised when they hear crickets. Well, I think it's so different. It's like anyone can be a podcaster, but whether or not anyone listens, right? Anyone downloads, anyone reads the book. So we're in the same place.

Yeah, exactly. But there are a lot of opportunities for podcasters and book people to either become one in the same or to use podcasting as their new medium to get the word out about their book. So there are lots of different things, lots of different places where book people and podcasters can play together.

I love it when we have someone who has a mission to publish their book and use the podcast world for their own show at the same time. The guesting side of it, we just had a big webinar between the two, but I love it when they decide that they're gonna own their whole audience.

Yes, I love that too. And quite often, if you start out with podcasting first, your book comes out of that podcasting. So you probably are podcasting at least once a week for most people. I know some people do it daily. I don't know how they do that and keep their sanity. But after, I would say, a year, you probably have covered an array of topics that can be put together into a book. And if you're doing something like a 30-minute or hour interview and it's transcribed, you've got a lot of material to work with if you can collate and put it together into maybe 10 steps to solve a problem or something like that. You've got a lot of room to pretty much have your book mostly written for you through the transcriptions.

I remember, Tracy, we have a customer, John Livesay, who would do that every year. He would take like 10 or 12 of his favorite or best episodes or whichever ones would work as a book and have them transcribed. Well, they always were transcribed, but he would have them edited, I guess, in a different way. to make a new book every year. And it kept him really fresh and he speaks on stages a lot. And it was really helpful for what he was trying to accomplish in business and just was speaking his way through the podcast anyway. Why not do it?

Yeah. And what I loved about what John did, and I think Juliet, this is one of the keys to doing this. And let's talk about some of the ways we can look at our podcast episodes and how we can look at it from that perspective. But he knew his audience really well because they were coming back week after week and listening. And I think that really made a difference. And he could see a theme emerging over time that really made a good cohesive book.

Yeah. And even if you plan in advance, if you're a podcaster, you're out there talking about things that are relevant going on. If you're not, people aren't listening to you. So you can, as you experience these problems and these concerns, you could actually plan your podcast to write a book. So you might see that there's a problem. I'm going to just pull something out of the air. I see a lot where people aren't able to do book marketing well. So if you do a series of podcasts on different ways to market your book, that's your segue into that book. And then just taking those transcriptions and writing segues from chapter to chapter and maybe having some how to. So if you plan in advance and you know you want to write a book, then plan your podcast in a way that give you that content to develop into a book.

Such good advice. I love that. Now let's talk a little bit more about the book marketing side of things because it isn't easy and you have an entire traffic school. You've got all kinds of things on there. And I think the number one problem with a lot of podcasts is the same with a lot of books is that you don't really have defined your audience that you don't really understand who you're speaking to.

That is so true. And I'm even gonna go back a little bit. I don't know about you guys, but I get people all the time that say, no, I don't have any content. And it's like, you just wrote a whole book. Do you guys ever hear that with the podcasters? Like, I really have a lot of content, and they don't acknowledge that that big project they just did with a book is content that you can use.

Well, I think they don't wanna decouple it from the book. They're so afraid to give it away for free in the podcast. So we hear that a lot. And I'm like, But there has to be so many stories that didn't make it into the book. So much more detail, so much more conversation, maybe controversy about what you wrote that's now changed now that you could be talking about. I agree with you. Like, I think they haven't thought that.

All the way through. So I always tell my clients, don't be afraid to share what's in the book. Because when someone reads a book, think about it. If you go through and you do the exercises, you're really engaged in that book. A lot of people will just skim right through it and they won't take action. So by you being out there sharing, there's a very small percentage of people who are going to take action. And those people who do take action quite often get stuck and then they're going to need to go and work with you. So I always tell my people, don't be afraid to share it everywhere, because most people won't even execute on it.

Yeah, that's so, so true. Well, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding, I'm going to say, of both self-publishing for podcasts and self-publishing for books. that the audience is just going to come.

Yes, but we're not Kevin Costner.

We can't build our field of dreams and they will come.

We don't have a field. We don't have Kevin. It's not going to work. I wish that was the way it worked. But yeah, I think they will really come. And where you do start seeing traction, I think, is when you really know who you're speaking to in it and you're willing to like, not look at the shiny objects and let everything else go and say, these are my people. This is how I'm talking to them. This is who I'm talking to. And people will find me and come from word of mouth. A lot of that does happen, but it only happens when you decide that not everyone is your audience.

Yeah, not everyone. All entrepreneurs, all business owners. I hear this all the time. All women. All people with a pulse, I've heard that one before.

I was gonna say the one I hear the most is at least once a year, I get someone who wants to write a book on happiness and they'll say, well, everybody wants to be happy and I kind of have to back up and go, there's some people who are holding on some stuff and that not being happy is working for them. So, no.

Yeah, it's so, so true. But yeah, I mean, I think we find that too, right, Tom? I mean, when somebody's really narrow and focused in their podcast, it does so much better from the beginning. Which is really the part about if you don't have the hefty marketing budget or the marketing system that you need in place, then you really have to have a focused niche and audience because they're out there looking for something. And when they find it matched to them and easy to find, that's so much better.

Well, not only that, the personality involved too, because have you ever listened to someone that, yes, they have the right information, but they're so boring to listen to. So I think there's not only that information match, but there's a delivery match as well. And it's the same with books. If you're an action person and you've written a really passive book, well, that passive audience is going to pick it up, not the action audience you work with. So you really do have to have a couple different levels of match there and really know your avatar inside and out.

You know, Tracy, I think there are a lot of parallels between podcasters and book authors. And I agree when you are really clear on your niche, and you don't have this pie in the sky idea that everybody with a pulse should want to read my book or listen to my podcast, it becomes really clear to the right people what's in it for them to listen to your podcast or to read your book. A lot of podcasts, they completely lose sight of that. And I find a lot of really good podcast shows out there. I can't speak of experience from books, so Juliette, you'll have to tell us, but I see so many podcast shows that the show identity is all about the host, and it's not about what they're talking about. And because of that, they miss a lot of people who would like to hear what they have to say. When they look at the COVID it's just their picture of that person, and that person isn't a celebrity, then they don't know what's about it. It looks like, oh, this is all about them. They're just going to talk about themselves. Do I really want to do that? And they're like, on to the next one. You know, they didn't even give it a try. But if you really make sure you're show identity. And I imagine your book topic is clear, or at least, you know, they have an idea of what's in it for them. And I mean, obviously you can't reveal everything about a book on its cover, but you certainly can pique curiosity and build anticipation. And even if people are not entirely sure, they may want to find out because it's engaging and it appears like it might be in the nitch of things that they're looking for. Do you think, Juliette, that's similar with books?

I think it's very similar. And I'm actually going to validate what you just said about that single person. When I have guests on my show, people watch. When it's just me, I don't know what it is about me, but I don't have as many people follow when it's just me. And probably because there's no dialogue, it's just me kind of drowning on, on a particular topic. So I think you're very right about that. When it, when you make the show all about you, or the book all about you, that's another problem we have with books is when your story goes into TMI and it's not TMI that people actually want to read about. So you have to be able to tell the story and have this dialogue without making it all about you in the process.

Yeah. Someone was just telling me the story. I was having drinks with one of our podcasters, and he was telling me the story about this great book, and it was by kind of a famous person, one of those big VCs. And he was like, the first three chapters were just this, like, all this story stuff that was completely irrelevant to the rest of the book. Because it was three chapters long of this stuff, you probably gave up before you got to the book part. And the rest of the book was like gold. It was brilliantly written. It was like two different advisors, right? That came in and helped him with it. And I think that happens a lot. Like, sometimes we, get over advised.

Well, there's that. But I think, too, like, if you're going to write a book, please, please hire a book developer, because everybody makes the same mistakes. And I did. I didn't have one when I wrote my fiction books. And when I look back now, I can see the mistakes. I just thought if I killed somebody, like, in the first page, all would be good.

That's a tactic. It works.

I know. It's great. They read to know. It just means I'm a sociopath, but.

So, well, let's talk a little bit about the things that where podcasting and book marketing can go hand in hand, because I see sometimes that some of it is too pushy and it's just like, oh, like this is just a podcast to sell the book and it doesn't reveal enough. It doesn't have any personality, has no focus. How do you want people to use a podcast to market their book?

Okay, so that is a great question. So the thing that people forget or don't do is what I call an author platform. And that should be built before you ever write that book or while you're in the process. It takes a long time to get your list built. And most of all, the number one thing I hear from book people is, what do you mean content? I don't have time to do content. I'm writing a book. I'm running a business. I'm the closer, I'm the rainmaker, I've got to bring money in. And if they had started that podcast way out in advance, that is so much reusable content. I mean, you can take when I do my podcast with you guys, I have video, I have a blog, I have all of these tools that I can repurpose and connect with people in different ways, meet them where they're at, and now they're following me. And now the book comes. So now I have the audience. Kevin hasn't appeared yet on my, you know, with his corn, but I have an audience of my own now for that book. So I think that's where that podcasting really comes in because it really doesn't take that much time. You guys do everything. I open up, I record, I upload, and then I get reusable content to be able to connect with people and drive them to the books. And every time I've done that, each book sells a little bit more because the audience is gathering there and it just gets bigger and bigger. So I think that is the most effective place where people could use podcasts. Another place where I think it's really good is if you want to write the book, use those podcasts as the content. And then on the backside, take your book and make a limited edition podcast out of it. If you haven't, if you didn't create all that content at the beginning, Create it afterwards and start attracting that audience. Because most of these people who have the books and podcasts also have businesses.

That's a great story. I wrote an article and interviewed an author at one point, and it was a little early in the podcasting years of things, so it wasn't as popular for you to start a podcast first. And so he was doing the whole guesting tour thing, and we'll talk about that in a minute, but this whole idea of guesting. And it came out of it that he had done all of these interviews, these live interviews where he had been on Zoom or wherever interviewing people that came as part of book, he had extended stories he could tell. And so he did a limited edition of those extended interviews, and it did so well. So he didn't do it from the episode, from the chapter itself, but he did it from the person who was the anchor of that chapter. Right.

Yeah. There's a lot you can do with that, and it's all content. I mean, if you're writing a book, you're a content creator. so expand on that.

And I see happening a lot in like, I guess we have to call it streaming television type media, HBO, Netflix, places like this. I see there are series of shows that are like a dramatic show, you know, something we would all binge if we watch TV or we watch a Netflix series. And a lot of them have companion podcasts. And the podcast is not the same as the episode. And I'm thinking there may be an opportunity here for authors, Juliet, with a book as that you've written the book. That's great. But what if you had a podcast that went a little bit behind the scenes of every chapter and really gives insight into some of the why the author chose to talk about these certain things, or maybe the story behind the story that's said in the book, but something supplemental. And now you've got something that people who bought the book can get more of you. and learn more by going to the podcast. And people that listen to the podcast first are like, this is great. Now I got to read that book. So you're going to sell more books, too. I mean, it must happen with all the podcasts that have been published out there, but I don't see it much. I'm not hearing about it much the way I do when you're seeing an HBO series, you know, like the Last of Us or something. They air an episode and they say, go get more behind the scenes info on the podcast, right? Or you see TV personalities who have a show, they have their show that they've had whatever they've talked about in their episode, and they have a weekly podcast to talk about it also. And that's even just a talk show type of person. So why are authors not doing this more?

That's a great question. And if you guys have watched any TV lately, you've probably noticed that people got tired of them redoing the same old movies. How many times can you see? I'm just Cinderella. That's probably a really bad example, but they're just making, they're remaking all these old movies. And if you remember, well, I'm older than you guys, but back in the 80s and 90s, there were some really great movies. But now we don't see really great original stuff. The stuff that we're seeing on Netflix and Amazon and those places, those are authors with really great books. that now they're making into series. There's a lot of Harlan Coben. I can't wait for the next Jack Carr. I read everything he reads or he writes, but you're seeing a lot of that. And the more you can write your book into something where you could make a series out of it, you could also do with that podcast as well. And, and do the kind of behind the scenes. And I'm really, quite frankly, surprised with all of the AI technology that Somebody hasn't figured out how to put their fiction book and make a series of their own about it for something like YouTube. Like, why do you need Hollywood now to do this stuff with AI?

I agree. You and I know.

I would love to know that my son has a fantasy book that they're working on refining. He's working with his editor now. And we probably are going to try that and see if we can make it into a series that'll get people interested in the book. But that's a great question, Tom. I wish more people would do that. And I think you're going to see more and more of it as somebody just picked up that idea and threw out there and did it.

Well, you know, I think this is a trend. And that's one of the questions that I had for you, Juliette, is that I'm seeing, and this happened to me, I was watching a live stream about, as you know, I'm interested in grants. And so I was watching this live stream about this group that had written a book about grants, but they were really talking about the state of grants right now in the, in the government and the whole agencies, specifically grants for podcasters, right? That's what they were looking for. And I thought, okay, how interesting, how exciting. It was a great conversation and all of these things. And then at the end, they mentioned their book. And I was like, and you know me, I will download and read a book. Like that is like not a problem for me. I'm a huge reader. I was like waiting for the book title so I could figure it out because there were three of them. So I didn't know what name to look up. So I was just waiting for the book title at the end. And I was like, that is the most basic, boring, how-to book. It's way beneath what I needed. And that's what I see too often, is that you've got this fabulous dynamic space that you could be doing something that's more, right? That's blessing what you're doing on the book. And that's great, but then they're not writing that next book. And I'm seeing this where I want more advanced stuff. I want less of the how-to. The AI can write the how-to.

Exactly. There's so many tools that can do that. I don't know why that happens because most of the books, I listen to books a lot because I read all day and I just don't have the bandwidth in the evening. But if I, I will listen to a book and if it's a how-to book that is at the level I want, I will go buy the actual book. So it's a reference item as well. And I do that a lot. I don't know why people don't do that. I think you and I have been working on creating some cool stuff because I'm going to tell you, I feel like the book marketing world is stale. And it's sort of like back when self-publishing came into vogue, traditional publishers, instead of developing new ways to work with authors, they just tried to make self-publishing bad. And so I feel like the whole industry is sort of stale in that way. I'm hoping that AI and different things are going to bring some new book marketing tools out there. Because Amazon is old, Google's expensive, Facebook doesn't target like they say they do.

So that's the marketing side that you're talking about, like paid ads, right? Yes. Paid ads isn't working really well. Email isn't working really well because there's not a lot of opening. Like we're all getting spammed by SMS or text messaging, right? That's not working. Because it's way too easy to get set my AI on my phone to basically report you. So it's going to hurt you in the long run. You just don't realize it yet.

So what is working?

What are you starting to see in the book marketing? What are you recommending to your author clients?

Well, I can tell you what I don't based on what you just said about text.

Okay, good. Yeah. Let's hear what you don't.

How many times in LinkedIn, how many times a day I get somebody sending me their book to read, like, please go by. And I would just sit there and think, am I your target audience? do I even know you? Why am I connected to you? So what am I see that works? Speaking always works. If you can set up speaking gigs and getting out there and being able to have a book signing, I have a client that does this and he's very profitable. I drop ship books all over the place, and usually it's the place, it's the company that he's going that's buying them. So these not out of pocket at all. I think that always works if you can get in the door, but you have to learn how to do it the right way. Getting yourself on podcast. Are they the right podcast? You and I just did this whole thing on guesting and it was amazing. The tips you gave them, but not just any podcast. Like, don't go out there and just, Hey, I'm looking for a podcast. And by the way, that whole thing we just talked about with podcast. pod swaps. You'd be amazed how many times I reach out to somebody and say, Hey, do you want to come on my show? And they'll turn around and they'll go, Did you know I have a show? I didn't even know. And now I'm on their show in front of the same audience. So learning how to reach out and do that, you're going to be able to sell a lot of books, too, on podcast tours, radio tours. I would get rid of the TV. Nobody's watching TV anymore. So don't invest in something big that's going to put you on TV. It may seem like Bright Lights, Big.

City, but it's just it's just really not anymore. But you and I did an episode on that, too, right? We were talking about that traditional media is kind of broken, too. And so podcast media, I really think there's some great things going on because the conversation is current and rich and deeper than it is in the sound bites that are occurring on segmentation style broadcasting, whether it's radio or TV.

I think it's even bigger than that. One of the things we saw in publishing when self publishing came into vogue was now we have all these additional genres and places of interest that we never had before because the traditional was controlling the messaging and there were places they wouldn't go. You see that with podcasting. You can find just a podcast on just about anything you're interested in out there. So I feel like this medium, you guys are in really expanded the genres as well. from just the plain old white label mainstream media type things that are going on. You guys, the podcast movement has really expanded the genres and the ability for people to learn.

Let's go back to one thing you said, Juliet, that I want to make sure that our listeners really understand, and especially those aspiring podcasters listening, or maybe those people that are authors and haven't started their own podcast, because I get every day, even though I don't currently-- well, I guess we have one show. No, we don't really have any shows right now. We're doing interviews. I mean, this show occasionally, like, we're having this conversation with you, but we're not doing any strict interview shows anymore. We're having guests on we want to have on, but I still get pitches every single day, really bad pitches for people to be a guest on my show, and clearly they've done their research on my show. I mean, there's such bad pitches, I don't even want to go into that. But the reason I bring it up is that there is a really compelling good reason why as an author launching your own podcast would be to your advantage, not just for the message amplification about the book, which is kind of obvious, but most podcasts will be more interested in having you as a guest on their show if you have your own podcast. you could have your book and be trying to get on every show possible and paying an agency if you want to to get you on as many podcast shows as possible. And if we listened to all those interviews, you probably would sound pretty similar on all of them, unless the interviewer is really good at asking some unique questions. But when you have your own show now, you've experienced being a podcast host, you're a better podcast guest, and guess what? A lot of people are there, audience will become your audience. So there is a big difference. And there are some podcast hosts that will not have a guest on unless they have a podcast, because they want, like you said, that reciprocal exposure. So just in case any of you authors who may be listening to this episode, because I know Juliette's going to share it through with her list, there are some good reasons why you may want to have your own podcast and not just go be a guest.

Yeah, no, I wholeheartedly agree with that. And here's the other thing. Just like a book, when you write a book, you show, not tell. Same thing with a podcast. You're showing people your expertise in a particular area without being out there being, I'm this or I'm that. I came from the real estate world where every agent is like the best agent in town but has nothing to show you that they actually are. And it's sort of like that. Passively showing your expertise for whatever it is that you do. And you're not out there saying how fabulous you are or anything like that. So I think it's a really great way to get your message out without being like this big bragger, hard sale, like really hard sale. Yeah.

So Juliet and I did a two parter. The second part is coming up. I mean, if you're listening to this on the recording, we probably already did it, but we'll make sure the links to the replay or to, I don't know, are you going to put it out as a podcast? Maybe you'll put it out as a podcast, Juliet, it's totally up to you because it's on your team's side. But we did a two-parter and the first part was really taking podcast guesting and breaking it out into the vetting and pitching side of things, Tom, because that's where everything goes wrong. If you don't get on a good show, then it's not going to work for you. And the biggest part of what we talked about in that, Juliet, is making sure that there's a right fit between that. And then the next part, the part we're going to do next is the podcast promotion side of things and how you can do that promotion repurposing all of the different things that you can do with a guest appearance that we do a lot of times with our own episodes. So we already have this expert, this understanding. And that's why podcast swaps are so much more effective. They're about 56% more effective in our measurements. assistant.

Podcaster know how to speak in sound bites. I got like 10 good clips. And so that's the thing that you're talking about there. And Tom, by the way, you don't know this, but before Tracy appeared on Friday at the event, someone had given me the worst pitch ever. And I literally hit the back, hit the return and said, you should go to this event because you didn't do this very well.

You should show up today. I love that.

I'd love to reply to every one of those to try and help them understand how bad that pitch was and how they could do it better. But I don't have the time. And I also get so frustrated that too many of them like, oh my gosh, how can I unsubscribe faster from this thing?

Right. Well, now what we can do is we can take Tracy's episode and send it. So you should watch this.

Would you like to be effective? You need to go here. Yeah. But I do think that the idea, though, I want to is that when you're marketing your book, you're not selling your book on the show. And I really hope that we got that across. And I think that's really different. So it's marketing your book in general, all these tactics and everything. That's where I think it's gone wrong because you were talking before about this idea that the traditional publishing and book marketing was done in a really different way. Well, they'd already committed to selling those books. so it was really all about how you sell it at the distribution channel and not how you market and get interest to it. That's a totally different model. And you're right. We really need to rethink that. One of the things that I try not to do, Shameless plugs or anything about our own tools and stuff here on the show. But I really think we need to talk about why promo cast is working for your clients. And I'd love to hear it from your perspective, because Tom and I have talked about it. But PromoCast, we're advertising a clip of a podcast and the show itself, we've also used for book marketing. And we've done that where it's displayed on mobile apps and other things, and it's only 15 seconds. So it's not really long. So most people think it doesn't work, but it actually does. Why is it working for your clients? And what do you think is like kind of new and novel about this idea of book marketing this way?

Well, I think first of all, if you go to Google, it's super expensive to run Google ads. So is it really an effective way for your book? We've talked about Facebook a little bit. Again, a little bit more expensive. And I don't, you and I have tested before the targeting is not really the targeting. Like you guys don't know this, but Tracy and I did some testing, I think back in 2020 ish, and we were looking at the people that Facebook was saying was clicking and half of mine looked homeless. I don't think they were writing books.

Or wanting to publish. Yeah, we actually took, like, 'cause you can go in and dial into the audience. And we went in and we looked at all their profiles and we were like, this can't be real. It just wasn't right. I mean, 2020 is very different than 2025 in Facebook, but I actually think it's gotten worse, not better.

Oh, I haven't run ads over there, so I don't even know. Then you have Amazon. And for fiction authors, Amazon is about the only thing you can do because you have to get people interested in different things with fiction than you do nonfiction. But I think the reason it's working is because Amazon has so many ads and it's all genre specific. And when we're running ads through those apps, now you're in front of different people who may not have gone over to Amazon to get a book, but they may have something that's relevant going on in their lives and they see, I'm going to use the example I used with Tom the other day. One of my clients said, well, what if it ends up on the, Archery app. And it was a parenting book. And I said, well, what if your 16 year old sitting here misbehaving and trying to shoot everybody in the place when you're doing archery? And that ad comes up, you might just click and go, I need help. I didn't need help five minutes ago, but I need help now. But I think it's the same. Like a lot of people are into spiritual books, but you might not go to Amazon to buy one, but there might be something there that grabs your attention. so now you're in a lot of different places that aren't Target specific with a lot of different people who do become interested. And I actually buy when I, on my apps a lot, I buy things on them all the time. It's not books. It's golf clothes. I'm ashamed of that because I don't need anymore. But I think the other thing that it does is it hits those stages. So that first month, are people even aware of your book? Are you alive? Are they alive? And they start keep seeing it come through those apps. And the more they see it, the more they're like, I'm gonna check that out. Then they start clicking. Then they start going, oh, do I want to buy that? Do I not want to buy it? But you're in front of whole different audiences than you were before when you were limited to your genre. And I think that's why it's working. Because if you're a reader, like you said, like you see a book, I see books all the time and I'll go, that looks interesting. I usually have to go see if I've read it before. So I read so much. Me too. I have that same problem.

I'm like, how many times have I downloaded it from Kindle Unlimited? Oh, five times. Okay, I think I've read this one before.

That's what Audible, I just got upset with Audible a while back because I duplicated a download and I had to ask them for a refund. And it's like, why did you let me even download it? You're supposed to be keeping track. But I think that's why it has, it's so effective is because now you're in front of broad audiences. It's like going on a podcast. There are a lot of people, different people listening there. It's not just, I need to go in and get a fantasy book.

That's a great point about the broader audience, Juliet. And that's what we have done with promo casts is we're hitting a very wide variety of apps that people might use and putting these ads and promoting podcasts book new books from authors and a lot of these authors, well, some of them we've been promoting, especially lately, have a podcast and a book, and you can actually cross promote in promo cast. But I think there's this tendency in marketing and of course, marketing professionals will always say this, well, who's your ideal profile reader? Who's your ideal profile podcast listener, you know, and gotta define that and try to target only then. you can try to do that, but that's where the advertising gets more expensive because the more you narrow that niche and want to try to hit only those people, the more money you're going to be charged for it. And the reality is it's kind of an egocentric, I think, approach to advertising something that, well, my readers are only this type of person or only that type of person. And do you really know? I don't know that you really do. So when you do this wider marketing that isn't targeted to only spacific genre, you're going to reach more people, you're going to catch more people. And I think you're going to have better results at a much lower cost is the point. At least that's what we're doing with PromoCast.

And to your point about that archery app, us moms, we're probably shopping for six people in our head at exactly every single second and moment that we're watching an ad. So yeah, you may not be targeted at me, but I could be going, oh, that would be perfect for my mom, for her birthday, that is next month, right? So you don't know what they're thinking about at that time, but they're in an app and that's a passive activity for the most part, especially when they're being served an ad right at that moment in time, they have nothing else to do. You're catching them at a good moment to be thinking about something new. That's, I think, where the difference is.

Yeah, I think there's a big difference there. Now, I did have a pushback the other day, someone who's a gamer. said, I would not stop my game and buy something that was on an app. I get that you're engaged in a specific activity that requires your complete focus. But I think on other apps, most of the time we're just messing around like, oh, I have five minutes.

Well, and if you click it, it takes you out to a landing page. It could take it out to your book page. It can take it out to somewhere. So it just saves it. Like it's just, it's like it opens in a new window.

I was going to say the same thing, Tracy, because I've seen a lot of ads in games and I've tried them myself. And the apps that do it, well, they're not talking about distracting you with some banner ad at the top while you're actively doing some shoot them up game or something like our daughter does with in, like, whatever the modern space invaders is. I'm really dating myself, but there's a bunch of more modern ones, like Gallagher Wars or something like that. I'm not talking about pattern interrupting you while you're in the middle of a game that's distracting you and gonna cause you to die in the game. A lot of the games that people play, there are intentional specific pauses where they play these ads. The game isn't gonna go on without you if you click one. It's gonna pause till you go out and look at what this thing is and come back. So, I mean, maybe there are games where the person that was talking to you, Juliette, is Correct. But I find there's an awful lot of games that I think are great ways to reach people. And I've have podcasters that scoff at the, oh, my podcast, I don't want to have my podcast advertised in game apps. I'm like, really? Do you know how many really intelligent people that are podcast listeners and our readers actually play games on their phone? I mean, I know because I'm married to one, honestly. Tracy literally reads What, 250 books a year, maybe more? Lately, Tracy, you go through a lot of books.

And I research and play with tons of apps, too.

But you still find time to play a game. You have times where you want to just, I don't know, zone out and you play a game and you're served up ads and you see things. So you're gonna reach real people. It's not just kids.

I hate to tell you guys this, but a lot of times if I'm playing a game, I have my headset and I'm listening to a book.

So you're multitasking. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't want to hear, like, little Mario's little music and, like, singing. It's a small world or whatever for the next year. I don't want that music. I'm listening to something else.

That's where the visuals become so important. And that's one of the things that I think that our authors, when we go back to this, our authors don't always think clearly about the fact that when we are repurposing, when we are using our content, when we are Book marketing, it has to be as visual as it is textually accurate, right? It has to be bold.

Yeah, it really does. And it has to stand out. And it's weird because a lot of times there's the invisible author syndrome. That's what I call it. Like, I want to be famous, but I don't want you to see me. It's sort of book, you know, literary passive aggressiveness.

We have that same problem in podcasting and they hide their email address. so no one can reach them.

Right?

Or they also use their middle name as their last name because for whatever reason, they're worried about being cyberstalk.

Oh, gosh. Or, yeah, I have someone recently who wants to do something sex-wise workshops, and he's using pen names on his book. And it's like, why are you using pen names if you're gonna be out.

And be bold, doing the workshops in your real name? Right?

Yeah. It makes no sense.

Yeah, that's so true. Well, let's end on this. I think that there is this idea in podcasting as well as in authorship that there's just hundreds of thousands, everybody and their brother has written a book, everybody and their sister has started a podcast, whatever you want to call it, right? Like everyone's done one and no one's profitable at it. But there are people making money. And where do you think that that's working?

I think that's working when you build your platform first. and you start something where you're building an audience and you have that content out there, and then you go to the next phase, whether that is write your book first and build an audience, then go to the podcast or vice versa, which if I were going to do it all over again, I would podcast first, then book. Because I think you're doing something for free that people are interested in, and then you go ask for the money for the book. Because people think just because a book is 20 or $30, it's going to be an easy sale. It's not.

There's a lot competing for your attention, right? Yes.

Yeah.

And I think that's so true that, that selling a book, just like promoting a podcast, it's layers, right? And if you have, you've got your website down, you've got your landing pages down, what it is, you're a compelling offer and you start to layer those things into whatever it is that you're doing on a weekly basis. Because if you aren't doing that consistently, then nothing works, right? You can't just. do the book launch and then be done. Like, it's a continual thing.

I think that's a great point. One of my book developers that I work with also is a speaking coach. And the first thing he tells his clients is this is not, oh, we're gonna launch your book and then move on to the next thing. You will promote that book for the rest of your life. People don't think about that. They just give up because they're not an overnight success. And you guys live in California. How many actors, actresses do you know that were an overnight success. Pretty much none of them. The ones I know, I know from waitressing. Yeah.

Cheryl Crow, one of my favorite artists, she said, I was overnight success 20 years in the making.

Exactly. It's the same way here. None of it. If somebody tells you that they went from zero to a million in a year with this great thing, chances are they're telling fables because all of this is layered. It definitely is.

Before we go, I want to make sure that you tell everyone how they can find you and what's going on. Now, Juliet is a partner in Podcasters United, our nonprofit. So she is always there. She has been fantastic supporter. And we have her scheduled to come back every couple of months or so with some new topic for the rest of the year. So she will be back here and you can absolutely find her here. But you may want to be reaching out right now and find out more about Arthur Traubach's about her books, about other things. So Juliet, where can they reach you?

Juliet@superbrandpublishing.com if you'd like to make an appointment, chat with Juliet@superbrandpublishing.com and our latest promo that I'm doing with these guys is Author Promo Cast. If you want to go check that out, you can go to AuthorPromoCast.com and of course we have Breakthrough Author Magazine, which don't just think it's for authors, we've got a lot of podcast tips in there. So if you go to Breakthrough Author, magazine.com. that is a monthly just dropped into your inbox. We don't sell you stuff. It's all free.

Absolutely. Well, Juliet, thank you so much for being here. This is it for Feed yout Brand for the day, but we will have Juliet back in about a month and a half, I think. And there is some to be some great topics over the course of the year. So make sure you stay tuned for whenever she comes back again.

Thank you.

All right, everybody on the live stream world. We'll see you next week.

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