Increasing Podcast Listeners: Why Amazing Shows Struggle With Listenership And What You Can Do About It With Brett de Hoedt, Host of The Hardest Word Podcast (Podfaded)

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all noise with the Binge factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazard and I am going international today. I've got an Australian podcaster and he has blown my mind with his show. And you know, that doesn't happen like super often. I mean, I talk to people and I enjoy their shows and it's really interesting, but this one just fascinates me. It's not as business focused and it's not business focused really at all. And it's just a fascinating concept and it's so creative and I just love it. So how I found him, I'm not even sure. I think he reached out to me on LinkedIn. Yeah. Oh, that's exactly how it was. He reached out to me on LinkedIn and he messaged me asking if I would join in a Giving Tuesday podcast feature that he wanted to run, which is basically on Tuesdays in May he wanted to run and was going to run in Australia and there was someone else running in the uk, a feature where we would give shout out to start up an underheard podcast, ones that deserved it, that were underappreciated and we would give them shout outs on Tuesday as a gift feature within our podcast. And he wanted to get many, many podcasts to join. So he reached out to me because obviously I have a podcast network with lots of shows on it and so I couldn't get myself organized enough because I record so far out ahead that I really couldn't get it completely organized in time for him and to do it in May. But as I started talking with him and as I started analyzing, I realized this is really a great idea and we're going to do more of it. So you're going to be seeing that coming up on Tuesdays. You're going to be hearing that. And so I have more opportunities for brand new podcasters to be featured too. So he inspired that and that's how he connected up me. So I've got Brett dehood and Brett is a host of the Hardest Word podcast. Now the Hardest Word is of course, I'm sorry, right? Sorry is The Hardest Word. And so it's a really interesting podcast focused around apology. You have to check it out. There's no explaining the power of it until you see it. We're going to talk a bit in this interview with Brett about how he structures it and what he does and why it's working and why it's not working. But this is one you have to check out and listen because stylistically it's so different from so many others that you've heard. So let's get a little bit more background on Brett. Brett Tahut is a former print journalist, network TV publicist and talk radio host. He now coaches people in the art of apologizing, the art of public speaking as well, including in that, because it tends to go hand in hand these days. This led him to creating the Hardest Word podcast, which showcases real people from across the globe making real apologies. He lives in Melbourne, Australia, and he is just so passionate and so excited about the podcast industry and the things that he's doing and inspiring within that. And I'm so glad he came on the show. He might not have as many listeners and I think as many of the other guests that I have on here, but I believe he deserved an episode here because it's so unique, it's so creative, and his listenership should catch up with the creativity and he just needs some more publicity. So here I am. I'm going to make sure that all of you go out there and I'm going to inspire you to go listen to the Hardest Word podcast. And let's listen now to Brett Dehoot as he tells us more about what he's been doing with the show.

Brett, thanks so much for joining me today. You have a very different styled show. It is, I'm going to say, you know, normally I wait till the end to talk about binge ability, but I have to tell you, like, I couldn't stop, stop listening to the show. Like I wanted to hear another one and another one and another one because each one has its own different flavor to it. So the hardest word is sorry. And there is nothing to apologize about your show at all.

That's very kind. It is bingeable for one reason at least. It's very, very small. It's a snack sized little show. Episodes are about five minutes long and that helps, I hope. Binge ability also, of course. It is an unusual show. It's real people from all around the world, and I really mean all around the world making real apologies. So it's a very simple show. I talk to introduce. We hear an apology from someone and then I finish the show and that's the five minutes. We have the most extraordinary range of apologies. I never expected to hear them from people apologizing to a monkey, people apologizing to their laptops and of course their cats and dogs. Yes. But it's not husbands and wives apologizing to each other very much at all. People apologizing to their country. It's. It's a very interesting show and it's. I'm surprised by it myself.

Well, it's got me starting to think that I might owe my sister an apology. So I may be one of your write in soon.

Well, if you do apologize, I need to hear it. I need content.

Yeah. So. And that must be the hardest job that you have. So most of us, it's the recording, we're like intensely recording, spend hours doing interviews and all of that. But yours has to be the seeking out of the right guests and the right Apollo, you know, the right apologies, not a guest in this situation. And so, you know, that's gotta be the most work that you put in. Cause the voiceovers, you know, a very short portion of it.

You're absolutely right. Unintentionally gave myself the hardest format possible for a podcast because I have to extract apologies from people. And I did have a fantasy in my head at the start that once I get some shows up on the air and the website Bill, people will just send me in their apologies spontaneously. That happens 5% of the time. So I spend a lot of time and energy seeking people who might want to apologize. I have literally contacted and connected with people who work with prisoners across the US prison system. I find radio producers in Iran and I've got some apologies coming from Iran, but I spend a lot of time looking at writers, groups and people who might be more comfortable talking on air. So people with sometimes podcasts I thought might be a source of apologies. It is not proven to be so, but there's a lot of time and energy trying to find people who are willing and able to write apologies because they can be very heavy or they can be funny, but they must be sincere. So we need people who can write an apology, record an apology, keep it within two and a half minutes, please, and make it heartbreaking.

How did you come up with this idea?

I like tennis a lot. And I was watching Serena Williams in the US Open final when she had a huge outburst whilst playing Naomi Osaka. And at one point in time she was underneath the umpire's chair and she was she had been accused of taking coaching from her coach in the stands, which is not allowed in tennis. And she was underneath the umpire and in the final, in front of tens of millions of people on television, and she was pointing her finger at him, saying, I demand an apology. I demand an apology. And that sort of was the pinnacle to me of some form of apology culture, because apologies are really, really hot right now, Whether you're a YouTube superstar who's apologizing, whether you're a corporate CEO, like from Boeing apologizing. In Australia, we've had national apologies to Aboriginal Australians from our prime minister. So apologies are very popular. We're demand them more and you hear about them or they get analyzed in the media. Was that a good apology? And I myself am a public speaking trainer, and I help people to practice their skills sometimes to apologize. But when I saw Serena Williams do it, I just thought, something's happened here, to be honest. You can't really demand an apology at the end of a finger in the middle of a tennis match in front of tens of millions of people. And I was, of course, dabbled in podcasting and worked in radio before, so it seemed to sort of come together, and here I am.

Well, and had you been thinking about a podcast or. It just. It naturally lent itself to doing that rather than, you know, writing a column?

I had been thinking of various podcast formats, and for some reason, this one sort of crystallized because I also. I remember I ran it past a friend who listens to a lot of podcasts, and she said to me, just never underestimate people's desire these days, especially to sort of unburden themselves publicly. And that's another part of our culture these days. People are very happy to share intimate things. And it has proven to be. I mean, I wish more people would send me more apologies and intimately share things more often, but it has proven to be. And also, it's interesting to hear people apologize.

It is. And so, you know, this is always the case where we want a really interesting subject. We want something also sustainable as we start a podcast. And you have something sustainable, because there really aren't. There should be an endless list of apologies that many of us owe people over time. I mean, I think that's one of the 10 steps, right? So like, in any program. So. Right. So it's listed there for a reason. So we should all be doing it, you know, so you have built in a great sustainability, and each story is unique and different. So you've built in all the right things to make a really great show. But you mentioned to me before that just because you have a really great show and it's very well produced, like, the production's off the chart, as you already know, and we'll talk about that in a minute. But, you know, that's not enough. There's still challenges in getting listenership. And how have you rose to that challenge, or how have you found it to be just, like, daunting?

I continue to have to rise to that challenge. And it's the same with every podcaster. I first podcast a show in 2004. So in this room, actually, you know, with a lot more equipment and a lot less technology, I was recording a podcast. And in those days, of course, it was literally everyone, even people you think who would know would ask, what is a podcast? In 2004. And now, of course, it's not another podcast. That's the response to having a podcast. So I miss that middle phase, that golden era where you could probably discover an audience naturally. And so it is an ongoing challenge. And I think the days where you can. This is my very cynical point of view, or skeptical point of view. The thought that you can just find an audience naturally is very optimistic because I've actually had some nice national media exposure for the show, given its format, you know, and being featured in some nice and quite popular, you know, newsletters and emails and websites about podcasts. And it gets really great responses from people when they hear it, because it is unusual and it's very intimate. I think that's a key word about it. But it has been difficult to find an audience, and I don't pretend otherwise at all. And whether I naturally will, I'm not sure. But I'd love to see the show grow. So, of course, it's the endless social media, and then you start that YouTube channel with videos that I also get specially made for the show. And it's some media, broad media coverage. It is the reaching out on LinkedIn. And the show is actually, it's. It's. I've had a lot of good luck with it. It's aired on podcast radio in London. It's aired on the Fire Network in Switzerland. And that's people who have picked it up just via link, via my approaches on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, by the way, has worked a treat for me.

Many podcasters say that. So you're not alone. And that's actually how we met. So, you know, that works out really well.

Correct. Proof of the pudding.

That's right. So actually, I want to mention that before we get into some of my, like, general questions that I ask everybody. So what is this Giving Tuesday podcast? So, you know, that's how you met. You sent me a message about podcasters Giving Tuesday, and I loved the concept of it, so I'm going to let you explain it and then we will make sure to have all the links to it. And because podcasters listen to the show, so we're more likely to create an ongoing movement with that.

Well, I do a lot of things, various things for a living. One of them is I'm essentially a publicist and marketing consultant to the nonprofits. And this year, around the world, Giving Tuesday is having sort of a special edition. It's called Giving Tuesday Now.

Every Tuesday, Right. Instead of just the Tuesday after Black Friday, Right?

Correct. And in Australia, we're doing every Tuesday in May. And around the world, I'd like podcasters on those Tuesdays, especially the next, to come up with a special edition of their podcast. And I know that's a challenge because we all put in a lot of work into the normal, and we're airing.

This and May's already passed. So I'm going to encourage my podcasters to say, you know what, just pick any Tuesday. Don't worry about the month. Let's just go for it and pick any Tuesday or all the Tuesdays. Right.

There's only 52 a year.

That's right. Pick any Tuesday.

Now, come on, 52 opportunities, Tracy.

So that's right.

Pick a Tuesday. Release a special edition of your podcast. It is not going to be the usual format because you are going to use it to recommend three podcasts very generously. No self promotion, three recommendations. We want, though, people to recommend podcasts that are underappreciated and are niche and might be downright weird and who deserve a bigger audience because, you know, the big guys don't need any more shout out.

Yeah. And, you know, for all the times people mentioned that their favorite show is Joe Rogan here, I just, I really want them to say something that I've never heard of. And the minute I click on it, I go, yay. It's a brand new podcast I didn't know about. That's the reaction we want, right?

That is exactly what we want. So releasing that space special edition works beautifully because it's speaking directly to people who love podcasts. Your listeners at a time when they're listening to a podcast, you don't have to know the people that you recommend. So three short, sharp recommendations. You might talk about each one. I even played a little clip of each one in my special edition and put it out there into the world with the hashtag givingtuesday Podcasts. It's as simple as that. It's not a quid pro quo. It's just a genuine recommendation. And it might be podcasts that don't match your own genre of podcasts. That's even better. Surprise people with your recommendations.

Yeah. And, you know, pick ones that you actually would listen to yourself. Right. Or do listen to yourself, because people want to know that, too. So that's always really good from a podcaster's perspective. So I'm so glad you started this. I'm so glad you reached out to me and mentioned it, because it's been in my ear all month long, since I first got the email, and I've been like, how do I do this? How do I make this really work? And how do I get my entire team energized? And I thought, what better way? I'll just invite Brett on the show to excite them.

Thank you, Tracy. So that's part of my role, to be the publicist for Giving Tuesday. And as a podcaster, it just seemed like an opportunity to do something, and it's got nice pickup. People are enjoying it. I think they actually enjoyed formally crystallizing selecting three and then talking about it, because I found it a little bit more difficult than I expected.

In every show here, I do the five things. Now, normally, my first one of the five things that are do the Find the best ways to do it. Right. Whatever way you found the best ways to do. Normally it's book great guests, but you don't have guests on your show. You have stories on your show and you have featured clips. So you were talking about LinkedIn and some of the other ways. Explain to us how you're doing that, because it seems a little odd to go ask for an apology. It's like, how are you doing that? What's the best way to do that?

For apologies? I spend a lot of time trying to track down people who write for a living, as well, whether it be copywriting or fiction writing, blog writing. And I try and go where those people gather. And also because I want a really global perspective on the show. I am on Facebook groups around the globe of writers and poets and artists and voiceover artists. And I'm pitching shamelessly to do that and to get the apologies. LinkedIn is a wonderful way also because of its search capacity to find people who write, record, talk poetry. Anyone who's, I think, more, perhaps more creatively skewed, might be more likely to record an apology. But, you know, I'm also surprised who does and doesn't respond.

And sometimes do you get anyone who just writes in? Because I. You had a. I mean, I have to tell you, I know it was a voiceover artist and I want to talk about that when we talk about production. But the one where a woman from Italy was asking for apology From China for COVID 19, I was like the whole time that she was speaking, it was so beautiful. And you just wanted and you felt so the writing was poetic in and of that of itself.

She contacted the show and was. Does live in Rome. Her family though comes from the north of Italy, which of course is absolutely the epicenter in Italy for COVID 19. And she had an apology idea. She wasn't apologizing herself. So we get lots of twists on the concept of an apology. She wasn't making an apology herself. She was waiting and had been waiting for an apology from China for the virus. She's not declaring it to be escaped from a lab or anything, but she feels that China owes the world an apology. And what it's worth. I agree. And she had been so desperately waiting for it and then given up hope because of fear what she'd heard from Chinese politicians that she wrote it herself.

Right. And that's why it was so. But it was so beautifully written that it shows that your process of seeking out those kind of. Those type of people really works because obviously that she must have heard about you from that way somehow.

Yep. And unfortunately most of my apologies, unfortunately. But it's unfortunate for me because it's more work. Most apologies are the product of outreach, outreach, outreach. And we've had a couple of people write multiple apologies and especially early on in the show's history, that was fine with me because they were ready, willing and able. And some people just get it to a greater degree. And a lot of people, obviously I reject apologies too, that are too self serving or they're not quite really an apology. And some are just more poetic than others. And sometimes a lot of people either writing and recording not in their first English, not with English as their first language. And that actually adds a sort of a charm or a nuance or poetry to it. I've actually that surprised me as well. I've learned a lot from doing the show and sometimes with the accent and sometimes grammatical errors or pronunciation errors, it just makes it more real because that's important, that it is real.

Yeah. So we talked a little bit before about increasing listeners. And so that's my second part of my best ways too. And I obviously know you said this is a struggle for you, but you have you found anything that got you out of all the different things that you were talking about earlier, did any of them get you a boost where you thought I might be onto something here?

A couple of things. I've had a couple of large media interviews on radio with listenership that I felt would be very pod orientated on ABC Radio here, which is the number one producer of podcasts in the country as well, an endless promoter of it. That led to some nice spikes. But I must confess those spikes were very short lived. I think a couple of days of really nice media hits, the spike was gone. But I then discovered on one particular apology, which is from a woman to her mother, apologizing for being a Wiccan for following Wicca culture.

Wow.

Which I didn't know much about before I got the apology that suddenly went boom. That particular episode, it wasn't the most recent one. I was wondering what this figure and I googled away and I couldn't understand. That was the product of one podcast new email newsletter and that has proven to be pretty successful on a few different episodes. And people just randomly picked up my show or an episode of the show to recommend and that has helped. But I do a lot of social media, as we probably all do, and certain cultures out there respond to a podcast episode being about themselves. And Wicker culture is one. And you know, I've tried Facebook advertising and social media. That has not worked for me as yet particularly well. It's a mix of things. But definitely getting mentioned in podcast recommendation emails has certainly been worth it.

Well, good. That sounds like a good way. So now your show is highly produced and that's why I want everyone on the binge factor. All of my listeners here, I, you know, I say this every time when I come across a show that's very unique in its styling. I want you to take a listen because you can learn so much even if your show's not the same. You can learn so much from great production value. And you have a producer. We talked about that earlier. But the production tell everybody about why it is styled the way that it is.

To me it should be very intimate because I've realized that's key characteristic for a lot of successful podcasts in this genre. You know, people are usually apologizing about something obviously sensitive, sometimes heartbreaking, sometimes they're funny as well, surprisingly, which is terrific. But I thought that people listening to it are listening for an intimate podcast that has high integrity. And I wanted that to be reflected in the audio. And I've deliberately adopted a tone that I feel is very sort of late night. I used to be on radio.

I would say it's even a little bit of like, I would say here in the US it has an npr.

Oh, yeah.

That's a little bit of the styling of it. It's a little NPR ish. And which is great because, you know, All Things Considered, like, you know that that's the kind of quality of it. And your voice really lends itself into it because you're not this overwhelming bubbly energy. Like, I'm totally a different personality than you are, but you're not so laid back that it doesn't have, you know, that it doesn't have the warmth that is necessary.

Well, thanks, Tracy. Look, I'd love it to sound like that. And I was hugely fortunate to find Brian Wallace, my audio director. And Brian's got this ridiculous skill set. You know, he can literally edit the podcast, but he's also a musician, professional performing musician and producer, and he's worked with some big bands as well. And for some reason, magically, he liked the concept of the show, and I think that's one of the reasons why he worked on it. So he edits, improves the quality hugely, and he also presents and contributes original music to it as well.

Ah, so that's what I was hearing on some of the shows. It was original, not just out of the can.

Absolutely. So I thought that was a good investment because, again, I used to be on radio and. And that's a different me. And took a while for me to realize it's different podcasts. Of course, most people listening on headphones, they might be listening to, you know, on the way to work, but maybe at night in bed, you know, listening as well. I thought audio quality was very important. But look, I just do it on the same microphone I'm using now in the same room I'm using now. So I haven't built a fantastic studio. I haven't built any studio, but the sound is great. I find myself doing it on my. Sometimes on my knees one in the morning. And I've started using my dog's dog bed as a good surround to the microphone. That's a hot tip. Everybody get your dog bed around your. Your microphone.

I just got one that's, like giant compared to my dog. If you can go to Costco, they're very inexpensive. And I just bought one, and it's so Giant. I was like, we could put three dogs of my size, of my dog size on this.

Do you know how many podcasts you could make in that dog bed? Tracy, come on.

Such a great suggestion. I love it. But, you know, I think the music, though, is what adds that professional edge. So when you talk about. When I talk, best ways to produce in a professional way, when you have a show like yours that has that dramatic edge to it, that music, it enhances it. That's an entertainment value that is required.

In a way, I gotta say, that was not my natural predisposition, that. That emphasis on audio quality. That is not my sort of way to operate usually. But I realized I'll have to up the game. And thank goodness I met Brian because we both agreed we didn't want that music that comes straight out of a music library or something. Some of it's great. A lot of it sounds the same. And Brian created an intro. And then actually this season we've shortened the intro. We made another deliberate decision because we used to have longer episodes with multiple apologies, and now each episode is just one apology. But we'd kept the intro the same length. And I'm an idiot. It took me a while listening to it, or normally just out on the street. I listened to a couple of episodes and thought, now that the episodes are too short, the intro is too long for a short episode. So we're constantly refining.

We're gonna refine it. That's right. I actually think it's really a smart strategy to have now reduced to one, because that way you're not cramming multiple topics into. Into your title. So it makes it really easy if I do want to jump around and skip to various episodes when I find your show. And so I think that having those ones, that's probably going to increase the listenership as you're going forward. So I think that's going to serve you very well.

Thanks, Trace. That's a very good bit of feedback for me because that was the decision, of course, to make. And what I wanted it to be is very, very easy to sample for the first time because I know if I'm looking at a new podcast. And of course, thanks to podcast giving Tuesday Podcast, I've come across 25 that I reckon I might be interested in. And I will be honest, when it comes to downloading, I might download and trial the shorter ones first just so that I can get a sense of them more easily. So at five minutes or four minutes, five minutes, six minutes an episode, I feel that my show is easy for people to sample for the first time.

I agree. And it also gives you something just more relevant. And if you pick something more relevant, you're more likely to like the show and then subscribe. So I think that's a way in. So now, once you've produced the show and you go out, how do you encourage engagement from the person that apologized or from the person who sent in a letter? Like, do you send them emails? How do you get them to then share it with other people that see.

You'Re a true, you are a true professional. I'm just making it up as I go. Tracy, you must understand that is something I'd like to do more of. However, given the nature of the show, people are less interested in promoting it. You know, one of the great models I think podcasters use is getting someone with the high profile onto their podcast in the knowledge, of course, that when that episode comes out, that guest with the high profile will promote it. That's a beautiful thing. That's self perpetuating. I don't have that luxury. I don't think very few people who are apologizing want to share it too much. They might want to share it with one person, but they don't have necessarily any sort of social media following. They're not celebrities or famous people or you know, in that way. So I don't get that boost. And I think that's a, happens to be a weakness of the show. But I certainly tell them their episodes on and, and actually I can tell you also very rarely have I got feedback on it. I have not got much feedback on. I feel better. I don't. You know, I would like to do some follow up interviews with some of the people who've apologized and I have done that on a couple of occasions with one of the most incredible apologies, which is from a guy in Ghana apologizing for not saving the life of his neighbor during the Rwandan genocide.

That was the next one on my listen list. I kind of jumped around a little, but I was coming back to that one. So I'll have to now listen to it.

See, I think that's still the mother episode. And that is so remarkable. An apology. You know, you hear his voice and you can hear it in his voice. It is just incredible. A situation that 99.9% of us will never be faced with. Of course he's gone through it and I have recorded a follow up interview with him about his feelings post apology. And that's very interesting as well.

Well, I got it. I got A suggestion for you. Sometimes I mentor on air, and here's one. So my suggestion for you is that you reach out to some celebrity Hollywood publicist, because you're a publicist, right? Because, you know, one of the most memorable things that I think when you go through crisis pr, right, Which I know a few of crisis PR managers, right, you go through crisis PR at some point. But the one that I remember so clearly was Hugh Grant had gotten caught in a sexual act, got arrested, something happened. I forgot exactly the whole story about it, but it was quite the scandal. And I remember he came on Jay Leno and Jay goes, what the heck happened? And you know, and he would just disarmed the whole situation. It was the best bit of publicity that he could have asked for. And so I think that so often we get these celebrities who get into trouble and do things and they do not make a good apology. So, number one, they should listen to your show so they can understand how to format a really great apology. Because some of them in there are formatted beautifully with how they, you know, sometimes you get apologies that aren't really apologies. Yours are a real true deep apology. And so. So you know that I think that might be the best way for you to get one of those celebrities out, because they're bound to screw up. It's gonna happen.

I also remember that apology, and it was seen as masterful management, you know, crisis management and reputation renewal. And it has come to be so. And you're absolutely right. When I started the show, before I started actually working on it, when I had the idea that was something I had, I thought this could be sort of a global apology forum or format, you know, a platform for the world. And. And it's still not out of the question. But as we all know, when you start off, you have those big ambitions for your show. And then, of course, particularly depending on the nature of the show, you might get bogged down in the detail and the promotion and all the complications that come with it. And I would love some high profile people to apologize. You're absolutely right.

And the next time Elon Musk has a faux pas on air, we're going to have a podcast, the Hardest Word Apology come through to his stockholders.

Tracy, the problem is you got to feel sorry and apologize. I don't think Elon's there.

I don't think he did. You're right. Absolutely not. Sure it's going to be a great apology. You're right.

It'll still be good for hit.

Yeah.

Be good for the Downloads.

You're probably not at this stage yet, but the last one of the five things that we always talk about is monetization. So I'm thinking that maybe you did think of a monetization plan when you began, or did you? Not at all.

I have a lot of. I've been self employed for a couple of decades and of course, so I am aware of trying to monetize things. This podcast didn't start off with any emphasis on monetization. However, I have found it to be of interest to my prospective clients who have nothing to do with podcasts or apologies. It just separates you from the pack. Because when you're a communications person offering things such as communications training, it just makes you look a little more contemporary to say you have a podcast, particularly a quirky one like this, that they listen to and they, they find it interesting. So it does, it's good in that way.

So it's building authority as a form of leading you to client or closing clients.

Absolutely. It emphasizes your authority. And I'm a public speaking trainer, so it's very relevant. And I have worked with CEOs and so on and so forth about apologies. And one of the other reasons I was thinking about apologies in general when Serena Williams had that outburst is I started getting inquiries from clients saying we want you to talk about presenting and public speaking. And so. But also can you talk about apologies? Because I think CEOs and leaders are now hyper aware that at one point in time in their career at least they will be forced or called upon to deliver an apology and they know that they will be judged on the quality of that apology. So monetization for me might not come out of the podcast specifically.

I would be remiss right now if I didn't ask you to go ahead and tell us what really makes a great apology. My listeners would be upset if you didn't give us a primer.

Okay, listeners, here you go. Speed is really important. An apology is a perishable item. The longer between the, the offense and I'll get back to that in a moment. The offense and the apology, the less likelihood of success with the apology. So you are going to have to quickly recognize when it's time to apologize. You're going to. This is the hardest part, I think for everyone. You're gonna have to put away your ego. You know, I have a feeling one of the reasons I get apologies from around the world and a lot of non western countries as well as, you know, California and Australia is ego is I think highest in the west. And we're always right and we always want to look right and be considered correct and have other people bend to our will or our way of seeing things. You're gonna have to put away your ego and get Humb to apologize. Another thing is I beg you, and we've seen this with a spat between celebrity chefs at the moment when you apologize in writing or verbally, please, I beg you, keep it short and simple and direct. Don't start saying and you'll be tempted. Because not all apologies are high drama. Apologies might be quickly delivered in a corridor in a workplace, as you know, your colleague walks past you don't tell them, oh, look, I'm really sorry about how I responded to your idea at the meeting. That was really inappropriate. But then don't go on to say, oh, a three year old is up all night and we're so tired and we're moving house and I got this.

Other project, no but in there, right?

No but. And you might be tempted to deliver the but. And it might even be justified to deliver it, but it will weaken the apology. To the people listening to the apology, use the word sorry, ask. I hope you'll accept my apology. It formalizes it. Because don't forget, an apology is a very, very much just a concept and a very old fashioned one at that. And I say this to some corporate clients who have come to me as well. If you're a corporate sort of person or situation, apologizing, don't apologize unless you're going to compensate and make things better. You know, there was a bank that I was looking at there, a public apology, full page in the newspaper over the weekend, an apology of sorts, but no recompense for something they did that demanded the apology. And also they tried to be a little bit cute in writing. They had a bit of a pun in the headline and they had some sort of witty turns of phrase in the written apology. Not a time for humor because the person receiving the apology can feel that that diminishes the sincerity of the apology. So be quick, be full, keep it short and try and make it better. And do that by the way, before you make the apology. If you had the chance to do some act to make things better, do that before you apologize. And by the way, if you need to apologize personally, ideally, don't apologize publicly. Forget the social media apologies. Call the person on the phone or call the client on the phone, or call the customer on the phone, or call the individual person and talk to them. Ideally, talk to them face to face. Or on the phone, social media and text messages, just, they're less sincere forms of communication.

Although I think sometimes that, you know, especially if time has gone by and it has been like you said it wasn't, you know, it wasn't as soon as it should have been, like, you know, decades later, you realize. Right. Decades realize you might have tortured your sister a little too much. And so. Yeah. That maybe a public apology is actually the only recompense that you can make. And so at least there's some amount of humility in your big sister doing that on, you know, so that might be the only thing you can do.

If that's what your sister demands, you must do it.

That's right.

It's sort of true, actually. By the way, when you're apologizing, one of the hardest things is sometimes times it's not black and white. I don't actually think everyone. I certainly don't think everyone who demands an apology deserves an apology. But sometimes if you're apologizing, you will just have to go a little further than you feel is reasonable. And that's what you have to do. Like spending a bit more on a present than you want to. But if it's a good present, it's worth it.

Right. So. Well, before I wrap up, we usually talk all about the binge ability of a show. And so we. We talked a little bit at the beginning of that. And. And so you can all hear the great voice, the beautiful stories. Like all of that is adding to the binge ability factor of it. But I think that what's holding it back from the subscriber binge ability, meaning where I subscribe to your show and I listen to all of them, and you're seeing those spikes on particular episodes, so you're getting a share in that. Topics that are resonating, but then those. That's not translating into that sort of true binge ability, which is being someone subscribing and listening to all of your episodes, is that I think maybe you just haven't hit into the right audience yet. And, and that is that when we start to realize as a society that forgiveness is even better than gratefulness, then we're start. We're going to start to raise the vibration. Right. And raise the bar. And so I think that there is a community of people who are starting to recognize the real. I mean, we've. I've seen some amazing brain and heart scans and all kinds of different things that are showing that when you are in the act of forgiveness that you are Actually, at the most healthy calm that you can be in your actual physical body. So you may be the new therapy.

Great. I can charge $180, 50 minutes. Sounds good.

That's right. Exactly. So maybe you need to just tap into that new audience who's starting to realize the power of forgiveness.

You think we need a sister show where people respond to the apologies they've heard and say, I accept your apology. I forgive you. Yeah.

But I think a part of it is, you know, I mean, you know, as we were talking about, you know, 12 step programs and all of those things, Right. That are out there, that, you know, we get into this stage where, yes, forgiveness is a part of it, but asking for forgiveness is the more important part, and that's where the apology comes in. Right. And so if we haven't asked ourselves for forgiveness, and you have a couple shows that are very much like that, where people are forgiving themselves, apologizing to themselves. And so I think that might start to be the tipping point for you and I. So this is the case, everyone, where I asked Brett to come on and, you know, even though his show hasn't taken off like it should, because I see that all the binge ability factors are there. It just hasn't hit into the right audience yet for it to do that. Speedy takeoff, but it's going to. I can foresee that.

I feel like I've had a counseling session.

That's what people say. This is like binge factor psychoanalysis.

Some sort of podcast guru. And I feel stronger and better for our meeting.

Well, I'm so glad. Well, I want to. To, of course, put out for the listeners and the podcasters who are out there listening to the show. What's some advice that you can give them, you know, if they're thinking about starting, but they're sort of hesitant and they're still holding back, and they're in that early stage of. I've been thinking about starting a show. What advice can you give them?

I would say come up with a format or a theme that is distinct compared to the 1,200,000 podcasts out there. It's just like parenting or anything else. Consistent and persistent. I've had periods, long periods, where I haven't put out content, and that has cost me me a lot because I know what I'm like. If I'm scrolling through my subscriptions and my favorite podcast at the moment hasn't got a new episode, I can start to lose my feelings for that podcast. So more content, more often than you Estimate and perhaps be willing. I think Kurt Vonnegut, the author, talked about killing your babies or being very important. So don't be wedded to the first idea you have. Be willing to change the format. In my little podcast world, I've made significant changes, and I think the show is better for it. And every time I get so an informed. Informed outsider, it informed us. Like you and a couple of other people I've spoken to. They have very different ideas about the show, and they don't hold anything precious the way I hold things precious. So ask the right people who really know broadcasting, podcasting, you know, communications for their advice, and they might not be seeing your show the way you see it, and that will be very valuable.

Well, I think you're inspiring a movement here, Brett. You should be very proud of your show, and I look. Look forward to hearing more from the Hardest Word.

Tracy, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful discussion. Enjoyed it.

I hope you found Brett as inspiring as I did. I mean, he. He's inspired me to put in a new feature for giving Tuesday podcasts. It's now going to be GivingTuesdaypodcast. Going forward, it's going to be a regular feature on our show. I've actually added it into the Pinch Factor website, so you can apply shows. Apply, you know, pay it forward, give back. Right. And suggest shows that are, you know, from people you really believe deserve it. That would be awesome. But, you know, I will look the other way if you apply and ask me to cover your show, too. And so we'll do our best. I have to tell you, I've already been inundated. I just put out one single social post to see what would happen and had hundreds of people reach out to me and recommend shows. So, you know, this is gonna be an exciting and interesting feature. And it's all because Brett, because he reached out, because he goes out there and he's promoting his show and he's promoting the things that he's passionate about, and. And you know what? He's promoting the art of apology as well, and looking at it as. You know, sometimes we have some things that are really exciting, interesting, very unique and unusual, and they do more for us than if we did a business podcast show. So thinking about whether or not that's what you want to do as you structure your show or how you want to shift your show, I hope that you experience the advice that Brett has been giving you here so that you really translate it and make it work for you, because it is challenging as he's pointed out. But I think at the end of the day, Brett's strategy, it may take longer to take action and longer for it to have traction that he's looking for. But I believe in the end, he's on to something. So make sure you check out Brett Dehoot's podcast, the Hardest Word. Don't miss it. I said that at the beginning and I'm saying it again because I don't want you to miss out checking out this show. It is truly bingeable in its humor, uniqueness, alone and worth your time. So as always, all the information about Brett and Now information about GivingTuesday podcasts are all going to be on the website@thebingefactor.com and we're going to have lots more resources for you, applications for you to be on my show, for you to suggest great podcasts. All of that is there@thebingefactor.com I look forward to bringing you more exciting, unusual, new and upcoming and existing successful podcasters and bingeable shows and bingeable factors in the future. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Tracee Hazzard on the Binge Factor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.