Intangible Business Podcast Success Metrics with Jess Dewell of the BOLD Business Podcast

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors, and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all noise with the Binge factor.

Hey, everyone.

Welcome back to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I have a bold business choice for us today. I have the host of the Bold Business Podcast, Jess Duel. Jess has got a really cool show. First off, she's got over 250 episodes and so she's got tremendous amount of experience. She started in 2017, but she brings over 20 years of advising and consulting where strategy and operations intersect both her practical and unexpected. Her views tune into the uniqueness of your organization. Companies working with Jess learn to ask the right questions, think effectively on their feet. Jess is a strategic advisor and specializes in working with companies at the critical point in development where they want to make the right decisions. With right now, in addition to sitting on privately held company boards and facilitating the CEO Infusion Mastermind, she produces the Bold Business Podcast. When not working with leaders to make companies successful, she's spending time with her husband and son in Boulder, Colorado. So in today's talk, Jess is going to introduce us to her bold way of doing business and how to solve big problems without expensive solutions. And that's exactly what she's done and used her podcast for. So I'm excited to bring her on the show and have her really talk to you about how she uses her show, about how it works for her and why she keeps doing it, even though maybe the metrics you would think are not always the real benefits to you and your business and yourself. And we're going to talk a little bit about how we can rethink what those metrics might be. So let's talk to Jess Duel and the Bold Business Podcast.

Hey Jess, welcome to the show Bold Business. I like the bold title.

The bold title is what it's all about. And you could put bold in front of anything and make it much more exciting. I think that's right.

Yeah, I gotta try that with my kids. You know, bold vegetables.

Maybe it'll work.

I don't know.

I did get it to work with cello lessons. I did say it's bold to be challenged. And when you practice, it's Actually facing a challenge. I have a nine year old and he's all about, I gotta overcome things, I've got to conquer this stuff. And I accidentally stepped across that. And so I'm like, so it works for cello lessons.

You are my new guru mom. So there you go. I love it. I gotta try that. So love it.

But you have over 250 episodes.

Congratulations.

Thank you very much. And that's this one, right? I have 150 from another show that my technical producer, Scott and I did. So we are veterans at this and I love the last. I think we're at 10, the last 10 episodes of our program the most. Tracy.

So you know you got a mix here, so tell me about that. Because you've got these episodes that are highly produced. So for those of you listening out there, this is a highly produced show. It's got segments, it's got multiple guests. It's gotta be a lot of work, which we're gonna talk about in a minute. But then you also have these shows that are called Uncharted. And I have to say that I really liked the Uncharted episodes.

Did you? I know. And in fact, the very first client that came through the Bold business podcast funnel actually said, I really miss those episodes and I really want them back, especially during a time when I'm facing uncertainty, as are all of my clients. And so we came up with Uncharted to mix into the highly produced podcast as well.

I love that. I love that. So talk about how this started.

I like to talk, Traci and I really. And more importantly, I like to listen. And so it's easy for me to start up a conversation. And what I was realizing is I have amazing conversations with people and I want to have them all day long. And other people could benefit from this too, especially around this concept of resilience that doesn't have a direct roi. Usually it's an expense that we have to carry along, but it saves our butt in the long run. I mean, there's a lot of things around this. And so I was like, well, why don't I just start sharing? Why don't I just start sharing these amazing conversations? So we started recording them.

I love that. And then how did you get hooked up with a producer, really change it into that sort of strategic show that you have?

Well, he and I, we got to. When we first started doing this, I think Carter was 2, so that's 7. Right. I keep track of how long things have been based off of my kids age.

That's a Common thing. I can say I do the same.

So we're going on seven to eight years now, and he and I, we were just like, well, what if we did this and what if we did that? And we did a lot of live shows for our first 240 episodes. Half of them were livestreamed, so we did them no matter what happened. Off we went, just like you were watching your news in the morning. And I decided I wanted to try something different. I'm like, we're really good at this. Why don't we change it up and see what else we can do? And so I was listening to some of the podcasts out there, and I really liked a few of them, but I was like, you know what? I have to make business even a little more exciting, a little more something that wants to keep people all the way through to get to the nut of that conversation. So we switched up and we added this highly produced program.

I love that. So it's changed a lot over time over the two years.

It has.

So it keeps.

And it's going to keep changing because I don't want to get bored, Tracy. I don't know if your podcast and all the work that you do with your coaching and consulting, but if I'm bored, I'm not going to have a good time. And if I don't have a good time, I'm not going to really be a good contributor. So it's all about me. In that case.

You know what, though? This is such a good lesson for you listeners out there, because, you know, this is the thing. I have the luxury of being able to start up a new show and it not being a problem. So that's what I do when I get bored. I'm like, oh, I'll just start up a new show, and occasionally I go back and revive an old one when.

I get interested again.

Right. So that just happened. For those of you who heard me talk about our 3D print podcast, I just did 25. Actually, I just did 27 new episodes on that one. So, you know, I didn't think I would do it after 600. I was a little sick of it. But, you know, this thing of being able to do it within your show construct of what you've created, Bold Business as a title and as a concept, works with so much pivot. It has resilience built into it. Jess, which is so smart. Yay. Absolutely. And that makes a big difference because you worked really hard with this audience.

It is true. We have a very loyal, not very growth or I mean, we're not growing a lot, but we do get new listeners here and there and we have a very loyal regular audience. So we know that people are finding this useful and valuable. And in fact, I would say when we switched to this highly produced show was the last time that we had a huge jump earlier. I guess actually it was almost a year ago now. We launched it in November of last year, this new style. And so that was like, oh, well, look at that. I guess we needed it.

I guess we needed a refresh. Yeah, I love that that worked out for you. So now thinking about this and thinking about the future of this show, you started to add in these uncharted episodes. Tell me a little bit about the structure of those and how they came about.

They are more like the fly on the wall conversation.

And I would call them based off your audience. I think they'll get this too. We have those pre conversations or in our world we call them the green room, even though we're not in a green room. And it's those conversations that are usually the most telling. They set up to tell me what kind of questions and where do I go during the conversation. And they're a little more at ease. People who come to talk to me are more at ease when they're not on. And so I set these up to feel like, err, they're not being recorded so that we can figure out what is the challenge that they've faced. How did they decide to go forward and what has that result been? There's no coaching, there's no nothing. There's just this concept of I had something to face, I'm facing it. And this is what I'm seeing so far because that's what we need as the leaders of anything, the founders of anything, the starters of anything.

That's right. I love that. And then you air it that way. And so people are getting this like, oh, I get to have coffee with so and so. Which is kind of fun. Right? So that's really working for you. So you mentioned something early on that I want to go back to. You mentioned podcast funnel. So your guesting strategy is a funnel strategy. Let's talk about that a little bit. What does that look like?

So here's the scoop. Until you just said it right now, I don't think I ever thought about a guesting strategy to become a client strategy. I have always wanted to find something out and I knew somebody else would want to know it too. So I went and I found the guest that could help me and Then the people that listen are totally different. And that's where we have the funnel focused.

Aha. So tell us about how the structure works for you.

Okay. So in that structure, we didn't even know what to expect, by the way. I was like, well, I wonder what will happen? How do we do this? What's it going to look like? Does it even make sense? Because a lot of people want it from. I don't want to say notoriety, but a notoriety point of view. They want to be known, they want to be heard. And in the world of consulting, where when you finally talk to me, Tracy, we have to go back. I want to see all of the skinny clothes in the back of your closet. I want to see the old lingerie that you don't bring out very often, and most people can't get that deep, that quickly, that level of intimate detail, to just say, look, here's really what's wrong with my business. The podcast is what allows me to get people to get to know who I am, how I think, what some of those approaches are, so that when they call, which, by the way, happens to me on a regular basis, they ask me a question, and I'm like, okay, so tell me a little bit about you. And then I'll be like, okay, good, let me tell you about me. And every single time, I'm taken by surprise because every single person has said, I already know you because I listened to your podcast. That's right.

I already know you because I binged on all your episodes. Right, Exactly.

So we found out we had a funnel.

You found out you had one. I love it. This is something that I treat. I try to get people who are thinking about starting that. This is the reason why you start, because what you really do is you find out those activated listeners out there who are going to become your great clients. So if you really aren't sure, if you don't have your marketing dialed in, if your demographic and psychographic sounds like, you know, everybody's, you know, oh, I would love anyone between the ages of 20 and 50 who have a business. Right. Or are an entrepreneur. How many times have you heard that, Jess? Right. It's too broad.

Too broad.

Right. And so now we're narrowing it down. Well, if you don't have any way to find that out because you haven't been in business long enough or you haven't gotten as broad a client basis you'd like, this is a great way for you to do that, because they will reach out to you.

They will. And I'll Add to that, there's a third one. That third bucket is, well, I live this. I act to plan. I could think all day long, but I will never take an action. I actually have to go do an action to figure out what I'm supposed to think about so that I can figure this out. I was glad that it lined up that way for us as we explored that. And I approach everything that way. I'll be real, Tracy. Everything. I act, and then I plan. I act and then I plan.

Well, at least you're not hoping, because that's what we say here. Hope is not a plan.

There's no hope.

That's right. That's it. Taking action is not a hope. So I love that. That's so great, Jess. Well, you know, it seems like you don't have trouble diving in. Not too much intimidates you. But there had to be some things that were, like, daunting about podcasting or getting started using a microphone. There had to be something that was like a learning curve for you. What was it for you?

It was the to do list for each one.

Well, but you made it harder for yourself having such a highly produced show.

Okay, well, even before that, when we were live, we had three buckets, Right. We had the pre production, and we had the actual production, and then we had the post production, which we did whether it was a live stream or if it was a recorded to be done later. And that was still. So, yes, there were still a lot of steps, but they took a lot less time. So you're absolutely right. I'm glad we, like, chewed on that first. And we're really good at when do we hand off, who do I need and how do I hand off to and what happens? And if something mucks up the works, can we bypass that somehow or work around it and fix it later for the next time? And because we were so good at that as a team, this highly produced show. Yeah. We used to do eight programs in a month, and it took a certain period of time, which I cannot tell you off the top of my head, because it's daunting and big, and we.

Don'T want to scare everybody out there who don't think about podcasting.

Exactly. And now we take the same thing and we do it for one show. And so the amount of time it took us to do 8 is the amount of time it takes us to do one. So we're spending the same amount of time. We've just changed up how we're spending that time, and that was Kind of an. Also a neat accidental discovery because I'm like, well, if I do this, how much time is it going to take? And you know, really sequentially, it's a six week process for us, from finding the guests to getting the final music and getting it uploaded to Libsyn to be launched at 11 o' clock on Tuesday, on the third Tuesday of the month.

So you're doing a monthly show now, but it's like a compilation of what would have been a weekly show. So any Jess's show, guys, is an hour. So you got a good hour of time that you're getting her. And there's three guests, typically in most of your shows. That's a lot to distill together. So it's a lot to pull, it's a lot to plan. And because you're being so, I'm going to say picky about who you're choosing to express the expertise that you want to talk about, the topic that you want to talk about. That also takes time, and that's actually the time I recommend to all of you out there. Spend the time finding some great guests that really can talk are interesting.

Right?

Like, I mean that if you're going to spend your time somewhere, spend it there because it's worth it.

Oh, I just heard you say one of my favorite things in the entire world about work. Do all your thinking up front.

Yeah, well, so I usually talk about the binge factor a little later, but I want to hit on it right now because.

Do it.

This is your binge factor, Jess. Do it.

Boom. Ready?

Yeah. Your binge factor is the fact that you bring us people that are experts on a topic, but we probably haven't heard from them before. And that you found us hidden gems. That's a huge, amazing skill that doesn't happen often in the podcasting world. Everybody wants, you know, the same old guests. They want to have all the names on their list. You go for, are they right for the content. And that means that we're getting really quality people.

Why, thank you for saying that right now.

Yeah, exactly. So that's Jess's binge factor. That's the word here with me.

And in fact, I'm writing it down.

Because I don't think I want to. Your format of show wouldn't matter. That's why your uncharted works. That's why the highly produced one works. It doesn't matter. But it's because you have these amazing people that we really have not heard from before, but they're talking on a topic. That we care about. And they are so deeply expert.

Yeah. And they're willing to share. I'm not exactly sure how I do that, but they're willing to share.

Well, I think it's your bubbly personality.

You can get.

They feel like, hey, I'm not on microphone. I'm just talking. That's right. So let's talk about some of the things that you do because obviously you're spending a lot of time promoting or doing a lot of things. So we have our lessons learned. So let's talk about our five lessons learned. So some of the best ways you've found to find and book these great guests.

Don't be afraid to ask. I actually spend a lot of time researching and some topics what I found. If people are a little nervous or they're like, well, I don't know if I really want to talk about that. I do have some topics that are hard to fill. And we have waited because it's not the right time and I haven't found the right people, but it might take me five asks to fill one spot. And so I'm asking 15 people to fill one show that's going to have three interviews in it. And I think that that's the lesson learned. There was. I was like, oh, everybody's going to say yes right away. Right.

Okay. So I'm going to stop. All you listeners out there. If Jess sends you a LinkedIn message or sends you a message and says, come on the Bold business show, go ahead and say yes. Just do it.

Exactly, Exactly. Well, because. And you know, you've listened to the show, so, you know, I'm asking him some tough questions. I'm asking them how they apply their expertise in their own world. I'm asking how do they move through a challenge around the topic that we have? And that's actually the part that I really appreciate the most. Only because that's where we're all struggling. It's where we're. If I don't have that problem now, I know I'm going to have that problem later. And I have created this library of 251 shows that is on demand as I need for whatever problem around growth and operations and strategy that somebody might want to take a look at too ignite what they're doing or look at a problem in a different way.

I'm gonna get back to that one when I get to number five here.

Okay, so number one.

But, yeah, keep asking. Love it. And be persistent. I love that. Increase listeners. How do you increase listeners?

We don't know that yet. I know I changed the format, we increased listeners, so we had something different. I also know that by having one show a month that is highly produced and very thoughtfully put together, combined with an article, I mean, these are people, we'd call them blog posts. But I write, I write an average of 5 page articles for each one of those blog posts that highlight the expertise that's gonna be coming on. We also make a trailer intro video. And so we're able to use those two pieces. Plus we're engaging our community, which is not a group, it's the business community out in the greater world. So that's where my socio demographic is. Like, if you have something to on this, I want to know who you are, because I get to learn from you. And so we have those community posts as well, and we spend a lot of time promoting each one of those, which seems to have very much helped us get the right content to the right people when they need it, versus here's a whole bunch of content. Good luck.

Well, so it sounds like you're going into one of my next ones which is encouraging engagement. So you're encouraging engagement and you're encouraging pre engagement in that community which makes them want to come and listen and then they join and then they subscribe because they enjoy it.

Yes.

So how do you encourage that engagement in these pre posts and the trailers and all of the things that you do?

So in addition to all the production stuff that's going on with the podcast, at the same time, we're looking at what are the current trends that are out there and what kind of a question do we want to ask around this topic from our greater community of business owners at different levels and stages of their career and in their business growth? And so we ask a poll and we put that poll everywhere we can think of for three weeks. And then in addition to that, I do a live stream with our guests and the guests come back and they answer a totally different question in the form of this poll for us. And then we're using that to generate, well, what did you do? How did this work for you? Do you have any advice there? And then at the end of the three weeks for that whole thing, we're gathering it all up and we're sifting it into a format that can be shared back out and promote all of the great knowledge that we have across everybody. Because more heads are always better than one.

That's right. I love that. So it's got a whole ecosystem of how you're working it, but also you got to produce like a pro for this. So what do you think are the biggest critical factor? Yeah, what's the for you? Because there's so many moving pieces to your show and so much of the team that does a lot of that for you. So. Yeah, but what do you think is the most critical factor to producing a podcast like a professional?

So for me, it was Scott. Scott Scowcroft has been producing with me since I started all those years ago. What he and I have learned is not only do we have a rapport and we can talk together, so in a pinch we could just get on and we could record a podcast anytime ourselves behind the scenes. He figured out that in this new, highly produced show we had a key element. And my element is the ability to respond. Right. That's like one of my superpowers. So you stick me in a room and I might not know anything about anybody, I might not know anything about any problems, but within 15 minutes or less, I will have a sense of the room, I'll know where the authority is, I will understand what's not being said and I will be able to know what is the right question to keep this conversation going. And it's that responsiveness that was actually a big hang up for us. And finally Scott goes, well, what if I made you an audio of all these clips with space in between and you just listen and then you respond and you listen and you respond because I've already put the arc together, I've already put all the clips that we want in some sort of an order. But we just had to get my part into the podcast as well. And that was his idea was, well, let's not do it like everybody else does it. Let's try this out to see if it works better for my ability to edit you in and your ability to be responsive and actually have something that you're excited about. And we figured it out and I have become a one take wonder.

That's amazing because you know what? That's so, so often producers like to plug you into the their formula and instead he said, this is Jess brilliance. Let me find a system that will work for her. Good for him. Great job, Scott.

Thank you. Me too.

Because that's what I think happens so often. People will a show and they'll quit it because it didn't fit them. And it's because they tried to force fit into a formula they thought would work or a format that they liked listening to but actually wasn't really skilled for their particular style. And so it just doesn't work out for them. So I love that you did that. So good job. I love the professional production side. Our last one on the list of best ways, too. We're going to talk about monetization.

Yeah.

So clearly you found a path to getting clients, right? There is a path to get clients.

But I want more.

But you want more.

But I want more.

So what have you done to monetize? What have you done to encourage that, like, flow through to clients?

So this is in this new season that you've been listening to, this highly produced version. Our third season, we decided we didn't want to have ads tucked in for whatever reason, because I really want the people who want the content. I didn't want to ever, ever be torn of I could make a little bit more money if I just did this. And so I. That's where my quality, my quality value shows up. And so I said, well, that's great. And that works for a lot of people, but that's not going to work for me in this particular kind of content and what I'm trying to strive to do and the problem I'm trying to solve for people. So we went the supporter listener route, which, you know, could be fans or Patreon or something like that. We call them supporter listeners. And it was a great big flop.

You know what? I can't tell you how many people will say at this level, oh, you should get a Patreon. But I've yet to hear one that was successful.

Well, here's the thing. I think it's there. People love the idea of it. I think I put the wrong door. I feel like I have a front door where the garage door should go on my house with this.

Okay, that's a great analogy. I love it.

Experiment number one failed. We took action. We decided to do this. We came up with all this great content. We came up with this great system. We put the infrastructure in place and we called it supporter listener. Well, the people who are listening to our show don't want to fans. They want to solve their own problems. They want to be better at their role. They want to do this. And this was an epiphany in the middle of the night.

Tracy, that's the best time, right?

It is totally the best time. And I was like, oh. So as of like today, after we get done recording, I have what I call a present retreat every week. And this week, it happens to be on Tuesday afternoon where I'm going to spend several hours locked in my office with no Interruptions. It's a completely protected time. And my whole focus happens to actually be, what do we do with this supporter listener thing? What do I have? How do I position it? Because really, we want people who are listening to invest in themselves by consuming our content. We don't want them to like us just to like us. And we don't want them to support us, just to support us and be ad free. That's great and all, but I think really more importantly, it's the investment in themselves. So I have to go back to the drawing board for experiment number two.

I love it. You're going for long term resilience with your show here. And that means we've got to keep tweaking it, we've got to keep it, and we've got to keep it with what's going on today too. Which is what you're also responding to, I hear.

That's correct.

Well, I love that. So here's the biggest weak point for you. Where do you think that in the model of what you've been doing, where you just feel like since the beginning of podcasts, like, I still haven't gotten this yet. I'm going to keep working at it, but I still haven't gotten it yet.

Oh, I don't know if it has to do with podcasts, but it has to do with the fact that I love the underdog. And so I tend to take the underdog route. Right. I tend to take the road less traveled and see what kind of issues I run into. Kind of like with the monetization piece, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. But I'm willing to try it out. I'm willing to stick with it for the end game, not necessarily the now game. And so I think I know that some people, including some of my advisors that sit on my advisory board, say, this isn't good enough. You don't have enough results. We got to change it up now. And I keep giving them a pushback. And so I would say my biggest weakness is potentially letting some experiments run too long.

That can happen. Yeah. When should you change it up? When should you say not good enough? But I think that you're at a right place and I was going to ask you about the return on investment. So, I mean, you're. I'm assuming your programs are not inexpensive. You're a consultant, right?

Exactly. I'm a consultant with long term engagement. Again, engagements. And there are projects that come and go. My average client is like, we have relationships for five years and in Fact, I'm really close to six years right now. I wanted to up that to above seven last year. And so we're on the right path for that.

But I have to see that's the short sightedness. I think sometimes advisors and other people get into is that they discount the idea that this show may actually be continually supporting your client base and creating that longevity for you. So I have one of our clients who's a chiropractor out in New Jersey, Dr. Kevin Peka, and he's got a show that he believes helps him close clients faster, close patients faster because they come in for a consult and then they hesitate because he does X rays as a part of his thing. So it's a little bit. Initial fee is a little higher than your average chiropractor. He'll hear, he'll listen to them. They'll say, my aim is to get back on the golf course or whatever it might be. And he'll say, well, why don't you listen to podcast number 15 where I talk to so and so or you know, where I talk about this. I think it might be of interest to you and hopefully that helps you and you know, and if you decide you're back, you're ready to start with us, we're here for you when you're ready and about, they'll go listen to it and then they'll come back to him. And so he finds his close rate is really high without him having to have multiple calls or multiple patient visits, you know, that kind of consult or it just drops off too fast, you know, because you can't do that in a patient situation.

I'm so glad you shared that. I just wrote that down. That is noteworthy for just a general process because yeah, our sales cycle is long too. So in the world of where your chiropractor is at, that is a pretty quick turnaround, a sales cycle. For what we're doing at Red Direction, where we're talking about long term resilience, we're talking about, you know, organizational structure, we're talking about all of the way people work together. Those are not instantaneous changes. There are instantaneous results, but they are not changes that stick without practice and guidance and practice and guidance and practice and guidance. And so that to get to the point where somebody's ready to do that takes a lot longer. And I love this idea to just re highlight a past podcast because when I know their pain point, it's like, hey, I can make you a playlist by the way.

That's right. And I do this so often because I no longer service my show. Product launch hazards. But when I was a high end consultant for product design, it was my lead generation. People would warm themselves up and they would just call and go, I'm ready.

To work with you.

And I'd be like, you kind of got to tell me about your project first. Because I don't just take any project. So let's have a conversation here. But that's great that you want to work with me. So my sales cycle went from like six months to close clients because we would. Yeah. To basically two phone calls like that. And it was more on. I have more questions than it was them saying, you know, anything.

Oh, see? And I. And I'm happy to let the like in your six month sales cycle to two conversations. I'm totally happy to let that work as long as I don't have to be in it. That's my goal.

Right?

Exactly. I want this. I don't mind if the sales cycle stays that long. My job isn't necessarily to reduce the sales cycle. It's to reduce the amount of time from the initial contact to when I can actually know I can help them. And they're ready to take that step. Absolutely.

So, yeah. So these are returns on investments that Jess has gotten in her show. But they're not always the ones we think about. We don't count them because we didn't go, oh, somebody clicked a link and then paid for something.

Right.

It's not a direct result, but these indirect results are sometimes the most valuable. And if we remove the show, what happens? That's a danger. Right. The what if. What if I stop doing this? And I think that's where a lot of people and you know, this is where I think you could be greatly helpful to them. Right. How you start to make that decision is am I making it out of fear or am I making this as a really smart business choice? Because I really do. My gut instinct is saying there's a really good play here and it's working and it's working for me because you're getting to have those conversations which is actually making you a better consultant it.

All the way around. And so. Yes. And I'll be real. I am not immune to the things I teach other people or that I help other people. Do I have to do them for myself too? Tracy. And I know, I've heard you talk.

About that as well.

I had no idea. And then I had to take my own advice. Was some of the things that I heard. And so to that point, yes. I had to decide actually, at the beginning of the season when we were making these big changes, I was like, all right, yeah, this is going to be. I know what this investment is. And yeah, I know what it helps me do in a non direct way. So how does that show up? What does that actually mean? And we decided, hands down, podcast is solely marketing, period. And so we don't. It's fulfillment for Jessica. Okay. I'll be real. It's fulfillment for Ms. Jess. Right over here. Right at the top of my list is my husband and my household. The second on my list is my son. Third on my list is my podcast and my dog, and they're a tie. And then above, and then you get to four, and it's like way down. So much of a less of a priority. So I was like, well, if I want to do this, because I didn't want to stop, because I like it, because I'm learning, I'm a better person, I'm a better consultant. I can ask different questions and seek out information that can help others. So we made a marketing. It's a marketing investment hands down.

I love that. And that's great. You have some people like brand awareness campaigns. They have different purposes, but let's just call it what it is and then keep going until we find that's not working for us anymore. Right?

That's right. Wonderful.

Well, great, great advice. So I want. The last thing before we go is I want to get a resiliency expert to comment on how to become a resilient podcaster.

All right? So an example I always give about resilience is sometimes we don't know what kind of resilience we're going to need. So at schools, for everybody who has kids, and in our house, we have this, and you may have this in your household, too. We have a fire drill. We know if that alarm goes off, it doesn't matter what we've got. It doesn't matter where we're at. It matters where we go and where we're going to meet that plan. And we practice it. It takes time, it takes effort. But, you know, moving that, especially in a school or a big building, moving that amount of people around is not easy. And if nobody knew what to do, there would be more chaos. So I liken resiliency to the fire drill. I mean, I never, ever, ever had to actually take action on a real fire from a fire drill. I did have to for tornadoes. I grew up in Kansas, so I did have to for tornadoes. But Never for a fire. And so somebody else will have that for an earthquake, but maybe not for a tornado. Right. We have these things that we do. And so to be resilient is to just know what is that process? What do we want to do and invest in recognizing Sometimes it's not efficient, and that's okay. It's the right thing so that we can move forward from A to B together.

Nice. Well, Jess, thank you so much for coming on the show and teaching us some bold business tips and bold podcasting, which I absolutely enjoy. So everyone out there, you got to check out her show, Bold Business Podcast. Jess Duel. Thank you so much for joining me today.

I told you she was bold.

I told you she was going to be interesting. Jess has got quite something going on there in the way that she approaches everything, and she's got a couple of different models working together in the way that her podcast is. And she shifted it over time and done some different things, and she'll probably shift it again. So these are some things to consider. But when you go and listen to Jess podcast, when you go listen to the Bold Business podcast and you hear the current format with that, she was explaining that multiple pieces, the different quotes that are happening or the different sound bites you're hearing from the different guests, there's some things that she's doing that's really smart that you need to remember if you're going to create this highly structured show like this. First off, you need a format, which, lucky for her, she had a great producer who was working with her who found a format that fit her beautifully. Brilliant right there. So that's one thing that you need just really need to have a much better plan for how you do things. Secondly, when you choose your guests and you have different voices on there, sometimes the voices can sound similar. So you don't want to just. If you're looking them and you're doing video, video's a lot more forgiving because I see their faces and, you know, I can occasionally glance when I'm like, whose voice was that? And I can glance at my screen even if I'm not totally paying attention. But when you're only listening on audio, if there's a tonal quality to their voice or if there's something very similar in the way their voices sound, then you really have to be very good. And Jess does this really well, saying their name before you throw to that clip or their name before you ask them a question, if you're going to do it in more of a panel style. So this is something that I always like to do is I always like to close my eyes, listen to their voices as I'm planning out if I'm going to have multiple people on my show at the same time, or if I'm going to pull a panel together of any kind for doing some kind of Q and A session, because it can get very confusing, not only for you as you're doing it, but for your listeners. And that confusion can get them to tune out and then they may not listen all the way through a show. So you know where you might find. You have got some shows that are doing great traction, and all of a sudden you hit this one, you're like, I thought the topic was really good. Why isn't it working? And it's probably something like that where they got confused about who was speaking. It was just. And it was hard to follow because of that. So Jess is doing really well with making sure that she's choosing really specific people. In fact, she's being very concerted about it, spending a lot of pre production time to go out and find them. So also go out and vet them and make sure that they're sounding good for what you want to do, because that's critically important as well. So, anyway, I'm so glad I was able to bring you this show because it's so unique and it's so different in the way that it runs. And after 250 shows, she's obviously got something that's working and a model that is great to follow if you're looking at how you might want to structure what you're doing. But as she pointed out, with big production, it comes big planning. So make sure you're thinking all the way through these types of choices that you're making and you don't take on something that is just going to be so overwhelming for you that you quit. Start smaller, take some baby steps, make sure this is something that you want, because you can always get more complex and refine it. And to do it the way that Jess does, over time, your audience comes with you. She's proof of that. So everyone go listen to Jess Duel Bold Business podcast. You can find all the links and all the connections to her at Red Direction, which is the name of her company. And you'll be able to find all of that at the blog post for this episode@thebingefactor.com always looking for bold new podcasters and where some have gone and that others have not. I would always love to see that kind of difference going on. So if you've got one and you think you've got a really different show or you know one and you're listening to one, you'd like to surprise me, make sure you go to the bingefactor.com and apply. Thanks everyone for listening. I hope you've been enjoying the show as much as I enjoy doing it and interviewing it and connecting and building relationships. I hope you're enjoying that on the listening side as well. So please reach out to me @The Bingefactor or has Design Anywhere on social media. And remember, that's has with two Zs. I'm Tracy Hazzard. Thanks again for listening to another Binge Factor.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd Brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.