Mastering Antifragility: Your Guide To Building A Path To Success In The Digital Age With Courtney Elmer Of AntiFragile Entrepreneurship

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more.

Then stay tuned while Authority Magazine columnist.

And buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that Bingeable factor.

Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the Binge Factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I have Courtney Elmer today, antifragile Entrepreneurship. I love that term antifragile. It's really great. As the founder of the Effortless Life and creator of PodLaunch, Courtney Elmer is a sought after consultant, host and speakers known for helping entrepreneurs embrace antifragility and use their voice to catalyze positive change in the world. Drawing on her background in psychology and personal experience as a cancer survivor, Courtney teaches online business leaders how to build self sustaining businesses that can thrive in a rapidly changing digital environment. What I really love about Courtney's show and about what she's doing with antifragile Entrepreneurship and her business services is that she is diving into that psychology of it. I mean, so much of what we do in podcasting is like going in through the year and tapping into psychological needs and everything that we choose to do in our show from how we present it. The COVID art we choose needs careful intention and thought and she's really thinking that through from how is that being received? Additionally, she's so analytical about her own show, about her own process and what she does. And I just, just really, really loved meeting her. So she's got a top rank podcast here and some of the things we're going to talk about is how she achieved that. And you know, you've heard me be skeptical about being top ranked before, but I really think in the way that she's approaching it has a purpose and has a boost that you must listen to and hear. So without further ado, let's go to Courtney Elmer, Antifragile Entrepreneurship.

Courtney, I'm so glad to have you here. Antifragile. I love that term. It's just entrepreneurship. I mean, to me it always has been. Not for the weak of heart anyway, but sometimes we do feel fragile all the time when we're in our entrepreneurship journey.

Yes, Tracy, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you and talk about this because I feel like so many podcasts out there these days, especially the business ones, especially the marketing ones. Anything entrepreneurship ish is talking about how to succeed. Here's the strategy, here's the tactics, here's the mindset, here's the morning routine you need, and, oh, heaven forbid it's going to take you three hours, but it's worth it, right? And this is what everyone's talking about and touting. And I just feel like there are very few people who are normalizing failure on the journey of entrepreneurship. And that's what I'm fascinated by. Because to me, those failures or those moments of adversity or those dark seasons that we all go through in our business, that's where we grow. That's where the most growth happens. We don't usually see it in the moment that it's happening, but in hindsight, we can look back and say, gosh, that was a really difficult time, but there's no way I would be where I am today without having gone through that. And that, to me, is really what anti fragility is about. Just grow through what we go through.

Yeah, exactly. And you gotta recognize it. And I think that's the part that we sow. We just want to shove it under the rug and pretend it's not there.

Right.

Oh, that was a failure.

Oh, well.

But I think that that's so important, and we were talking before our interview here, that you are about to sit down and really analyze your show and what's been going on with it and everything. And I love that we're catching each other at that time, because that's the part that I think so few people do, is that they look at their top 10 episodes, for instance, or their top 10 guests, and they're like, oh.

Okay, these were great.

But do they look at the bottom? Do they look at the ones that didn't work and then think about what's going on there? Yeah.

I have a whole week blocked off next week at the time of this recording to sit down and just put on Courtney's podcast glasses and look at my show and take that deeper look. Because you're so right. Especially for those of us that have been podcasting for six months or more, a year or more, we're always focused on what's doing well, but we're not always focused on what hasn't done well and asking why it didn't. And there could be a myriad of answers that come from that and little insights that you discover. And what I love about taking a look at the moments where we've failed. Right. I can even put that in air quotes. Because call it what you will, call it a lesson, call it a learning, call it a mistake. For me, it doesn't matter what you call it. We're all going to have those moments. And what's really important is to recognize, first of all, why is this happening and what am I learning from it? What can I learn from it? It might have been the worst thing to ever happen to you, but isn't it also true that for those that are out there wearing this influencer badge status, right, or the experts or the gurus that we all tend to look up to, how much more connected do we feel to them when they're actually talking about the moments where they had a misstep or where they made a mistake or where they failed or where they lost something, as opposed to just their glory story? So I feel it humanizes us in such a way, and it's something that I try to practice throughout my business. Do I do it daily? No. But there are times where I really do pull back and sit down to look at what is going well and more importantly, what's not going well and why. Yeah.

So many people get caught up in. The only time you ever hear about the failure is on the path to the hero story. Right? Like, that's the only time you ever hear it. And I was once giving a speech and I forgot to do the hero moment part because I was caught up in this. Like, what you learned from the bottom piece. And they were, like, raising their hands at the end. You go, well, what happened, Tracy? Did you get, you know, like. And I was like, oh, sorry, I forgot about that because I really do. I think there's so much opportunity in what we can learn from that bottom that we hit.

Yes, totally. I mean, look at the economy right now. It's really slow. Is it where we want it to be? No. Can we blame it for our slow revenue in our business? Maybe. But is that really the cause? And even deeper than that, is it an opportunity for us to look at where things aren't working in our business? This is what I love about failure or adversity or just challenges that we're faced with on the journey is that we would never have a reason to look at the problems. Otherwise, we'd never have a reason to fix the problems. Otherwise, we might not even know there's problems. Unless that challenge or that dark season or that confusing season where we didn't have clarity, like, we wouldn't have known it. It wouldn't have become obvious to us unless that had Happened.

So you started your show in 2020. Was it in response to a marketing problem? What was the reason for it?

Yeah, you know, my son was about 18 months old at the time, and by choice he was home with me full time. I didn't have him in daycare and so sometimes the only hands free time that I would get in a day was to strap him in our his stroller. I'd go for a walk in our neighborhood, you know, and I'd pop my AirPods in and I would just be listening to podcasts because I was a couple of years into building my business at that point, Started my business in 2017 and so was learning everything that I could. I was like a sponge, you know, tell me all the strategies, all the tactics, all the things that I need to do to be successful. And one day it just clicked for me and I'm like, look, here I am listening every week to these experts who are telling me what to do, but I'm not actually giving any mind or paying any attention to what they're doing. And they're sitting here talking about social media and building your email list and doing live launches and hosting workshops and all the things we've heard a million times over. But what was the one thing they all had in common? They were podcasting. And I was like, onto something here because suddenly I started seeing them through new eyes. And I'm like, gosh, if they could build their own stage, grow their audience, and then teach what wisdom and knowledge they have to those people, wouldn't I do the same thing? And maybe it's not so much about the strategy or the tactic or how often I'm posting to Instagram, but maybe it's about the way they're marketing their business. And it was through that long form content. And that just lit a little spark in me because I wasn't going to their Instagram to learn. I was listening to their podcast to learn. And so that is what really got me thinking, okay, I could do this, I could do this now. I did overthink it for a good nine months after that.

You wouldn't be alone if you didn't overthink it. Right?

Right. It's like, oh, do I do it? Do I have the time? Right? I mean, my son, I would work when he was taking a nap, so I would have like 30 to 60 minute blocks to get any kind of work done. But in response to what I was feeling with social media was that I didn't feel connected with my audience because there were topics I Wanted to explore where a hundred word caption just didn't cut it. You couldn't go deep enough. 7 second video. I mean, come on, right? How am I supposed to talk about something, shift beliefs and change someone's perspective in seven seconds? You know, you can do it. More power to you. But I was struggling and so I thought what a beautiful way for me to build a relationship with people. That's really what I wanted and that's why I started it. It wasn't, you know, to have this lead generation mechanism or to have this amazing place to share my message and use my voice to create. It was none of that. It was just, I am not getting what I want out of social media. I don't have the time to create short form content and I just want a way to connect with people on a deeper level.

Well, it seems to have been working really well for you. So let's talk about some of the things that you did so right. You have talked about having a top 100 Apple podcast, which is just amazing. And let's talk a little bit about that. You have some tips for that, some three parts that you talk about about that specifically. But people who listen to the show regularly know that I'm kind of a, a chart. And like, you know when people say, oh, I was the top 5%, like I'm not a fan of the percent. Like, I'm like, everyone who achieves regular weekly is a top 5%. Right. Like, I'm like, I'm like, you have no idea how bad the whole podcasting stat side of things is. But in your particular case, we were talking earlier that it's really about the discoverability side that that has offered you. So let's talk about that.

Yes, and first, I do want to say the percent thing. I'm right there with you. And I think the average consumer doesn't realize how much or how little it matters because if we've got 3 million plus podcasts and you're in the top 1%, oh, whoop Dee doo, you're in the top. What is that, 30,000, 300,000? You know, I mean, it's, it's a big number still. And what I see a lot of people doing is kind of preying on people's innocence in that sense, where they're like, oh, I've got this top 1% podcast. I'm really somebody. And it's like, actually, yeah, if you consider yourself one of 300,000 people, okay. And it's just the numbers are we could talk all day about that, Tracy, but honestly, I agree with you. And I think the charts too, to some degree. The only reason that I give any kind of weight to the charts, I don't think it matters what number you are in the charts. But what I always tell our clients is that it does matter for you to get in the charts when you can. Why? Because it helps you get discovered. You know, it's not for bragging rights, not for an ego boost. It's not to say, oh my gosh, I'm rubbing shoulders with, I don't know, Andrew Huberman or someone, right, who's always like, top 1 of all podcasts of all time. But it's to have another avenue of discovery for listeners to find you. And this is one of the biggest problems, as you and I both know with podcasting is that we don't really have that many avenues of discovery available to us.

No, it's so bad the apps don't help you. They're supposed to. Like, people think I put my podcast out there. There's listeners waiting for them, and they are. But they can't find you because the so bad at allowing discoverability.

Yes. Gosh, I dream of the day that.

Wake up, right, and realize. And until then, we're left with a few, some of them being very labor intensive methods for getting in front of new listeners. And every time I'm talking with someone, I'm like, well, how did you find my podcast? And I'll tell you, it either comes from, I heard you on another podcast or I saw your Instagram content or my friend told me about your podcast.

I love those.

Yet to have someone tell me, I saw you on the charts. You know, even though we're in and out of the charts all the time, but like, it is an avenue of discovery, it can help you, but it's not the end all, be all. I think that's what people really need to realize. Yeah.

Well, what are some ways that you recommend that they start to get better? Discoverability.

Yes. So with our methodology, you know, really, you mentioned it's three parts. It's very simple. So at a very high level, you know, pillar one is centered around creating what we call binge worthy content. I mean, you know all about that.

Yeah, that's my number one thing here.

Right? Exactly. And how do we do that? And a lot of that leans on psychology. We have to understand who our listener is and more importantly, what are the problems that they're experiencing that our podcast solves. And one of the mistakes I see a lot of people making is they're far too general with what they're talking about or teaching about. And this generalization is hurting you. It's causing you to lose listeners to your competition. Because if there are two podcasts about, let's say, making money, right, something very generic, very simple that a lot of people have an interest in. I mean, yeah, we all want to make money to some degree, even if it's just to keep the lights on, right? Or maybe go on a vacation every once in a while. But if me, the average listener, who is cold to you, the host, which means I don't know who you are, what you stand for, what you teach, why you teach it, why it's important to you, or why I should care, then I'm just kind of looking at these podcasts at face value. And whether you like it or not, I'm a human being. So I'm going to judge a book by its cover. And if your title doesn't grab me, if your cover art isn't pulling me in, if your description doesn't tell me exactly what problems that your show solves for me, you've lost me. And that's before I ever listen to a single episode. I won't even make it that far. And this is what most people think. They think if I could just pour such great value into my content, if I had the best content on the planet, people will just naturally find it. They're just going to listen. And what they don't realize is there's like five steps in the listener journey before they decide to hit play. So good luck. You know, this is probably one of the reasons why you don't have the listenership that you want right now. So this is a big pillar. We focus a lot on this, because when you're clear on who you're looking to attract and you can align all your podcast elements to attract that person, it's kind of like a duck call. My husband watches this show on YouTube called Meat Eater. I don't know why my husband's not a hunter, but he's fascinated by this guy because he'll go out in the wilderness, and he's talking about how he's hunting, like, moose and elk and ducks and all these things, but he's got, like, an animal call for every specific one of those animals. And so whatever the episode is, let's say he's hunting elk, you know, and he's got the elk call, and he's not using the duck call for them. He's not using the moose call. He's using the elk call because he wants to call elk and more elk and only elk. And that's what we got to do with our podcasts, right? It's got to be like that duck call, elk call, whatever you want to call it to attract that person. And so if we have gaps in that process, we're going to lose listeners. And what's really going to frustrate you is that you're going to see someone else out there who's podcasting, who has subpar content, who's not putting as nearly as much time or energy because you can tell they're not consistent, right? Their episodes are kind of all over the place, but they. They have more listeners than you, and they're charting and they're really successful. They have more Instagram followers. And you're like, why? Why?

Right?

And it. It hurts because we're out here to make a change. We're here to make a difference. So that's pillar one. Pillar two is a launch and relaunch system. This is really important, and it's something that very few people are even talking about. Whenever you go to start a podcast, what most people will say is, okay, buy a high quality mic, plan your episodes, hit record, find a hosting platform, publish your content, and then just stay consistent and it will grow. And that's about the bulk of the advice that most of us get. And what's so, so, so sad to me about this is that, I mean, you know, Tracy, I mean, most podcasters quit now, what, after episode six, it's.

11 on average across everyone. But for those that in recent years, like, if you think about it, from 2020 on the average is 6. So it's gotten worse, not better. But it's. Overall, it's still 11.

But it's heartbreaking because what happens is these people are gonna walk away from this experience thinking, podcasts don't work. They're a waste of time. What's wrong with me? I did all the right things. I'm putting that in air quotes for those of you that are listening just on audio right now. I did the right things. I published once a week, every week. I didn't miss. You know, I put my best content out there. I gave my best stuff away for free. And then they walk away making it mean something about them that it doesn't actually mean. Like, gosh, I must not be enough of an expert yet, or people don't care about what I have to say, or what I have to say is not as important as someone else. When the reality is it boils down to not having the right strategy to get your podcast noticed from day one. And that's what the launch system takes care of. And I say relaunch because if you've got an existing podcast where you're doing all the right things, you're publishing, you sharing those episodes religiously to social media, your email list, you're still not seeing listenership grow like you want it to. Then you can use this system, kind of like a vitamin B shot, to give your podcast just a little bit of a momentum boost. Let's see if we can get you back in those charts. Let's see if we can get some buzz generated around your podcast, get people talking about it, get people sharing it. This obviously means you've got the binge worthy content piece in place, right? That has to come first. But let's breathe some new life into your podcast. And that's what this piece really takes care of.

And I think it's really smart. And I want to say this because I always recommend taking a look every 50 episodes. In the beginning, I do. So if you're, it's your first year, you do it at the 25 episode mark, right? You take a look at how. How did I do in that first 25. Now's a chance to make some tweaks and changes and then go into your next 25. And that's only in the first year. After that, on a yearly basis, I recommend people look at that and revamp your show, relaunch it. Fix things that were missing that maybe you couldn't afford to fix before. Like maybe you couldn't get the most gorgeous cover art you wanted. It was still a fiver. And now's the time, go ahead and revamp it. Cause you got a little more money in your business. Great. Relaunching. That's my favorite part about podcasting is it's so flexible that you can do that. So I love that you're focusing on that because that really involves. I can take a look at what I've done right and I can take a look at what I didn't do right and fix those things now and then start again.

Yes, we have clients who will do it every year on the anniversary of their first episode going live. And I think it's brilliant. I think it's a beautiful time to do it. It reengages your existing community. It engages anyone who might have found you in that year's time, that maybe they know about your podcast, but they haven't committed the time to listening to it yet. And I think this is what a lot of people forget, that as the host of your show, it's your responsibility to generate buzz for it. It's not going to happen on its own. It's kind of like if you were to open a bakery on like the most popular street corner, you know, in your town and you have the best baked goods on the planet because they're so good, you just unlock the door on day one, flip the open sign and hope people walk in and buy them and the word will spread. That may happen to some degree, but if you were out there on the street corner and you had someone dressed up like a giant cookie, right? And be like, look, we have vegan options, we have gluten free options. Come inside, best baked goods, right? Like, you'd get a lot more attention. I know it sounds like a cheesy example, but this is what I mean by generating attention for our podcast. If we, the host, are not excited about our own show, nobody else is going to be excited about your show.

That's so, so true. You know, it's so funny. It's become so mainstream that I can go, I just was at a family event and everyone walked up to me and said, oh, your aunt tells me you have a podcast. And I was like, well, I have a podcast company. And I said, but I do have a podcast. And they're like, well, what's your show? And I was like, I'm not really sure. You want to listen to it. It's podcast for podcasters. Are you thinking about podcasting yourself? If so, listen to it. If not, then I've got to tell me what kind of show you want and I'll tell you one of my clients. How about that? And so. But I thought it was so great. I mean, these are all ages asking me for what's your show? I'll listen to it. Because they're dying for good content.

Yes. And this is why we teach people to write. We call it a podcast positioning statement, or PPS for short. I'm like, look, write a one to two sentence conversational elevator pitch for your podcast. Now don't make it sound like a stuffy old elevator pitch, right? But an elevator pitch. Because you're going to be in these conversations with people, it's going to come up, especially in business conversations. Do you have a podcast, you know, or tell me, you know about what you do. And it's just going to naturally come up and they're going to go, oh, well, tell me about your podcast. And if you don't have something prepared, then you're going to lose them. What we want them to do is right then and there, pull out their phone and go, oh my gosh, what's the name of that again? Let me go follow it right now. And you're going to have these moments where we get to promote our podcast, we get to talk about it, we get to be our own word of mouth. And we're not doing that enough.

Oh, we're really not. Like, I can't tell you how many times I've sat in the audience watching one of my clients speak or something, and I'll be like, and you have a podcast from the back row. Like it's so crazy that they don't.

Want to promote it. Right, I know, look, I'm guilty of it too, quite honestly. You know, there have been those times where I'm like, oh, Ben, I do have a podcast, by the way. You should go check it out. You know, it's like an afterthought. But I'm like, no, no, we need to be leading with this. And all of these experts like you and I are out here saying like, how much credibility a podcast can give you. Just like writing a book. Would you ever write a bestseller book and then not talk about it?

No, those authors talk about it even when it's not a bestseller. So.

Exactly. So it's like, why aren't we doing the same thing with our podcasts? And then the third and final piece is really, you know, we call it your long term audience building system. Because we all know once you get a podcast up and running, that's just half the battle. Now we gotta figure out how do we grow it over the long term. This becomes a big hang up for people. And what I see a lot, Tracy, is that what people are doing in their marketing before a podcast is that they might have two, three or four platforms forms that they're trying to grow. They're trying to post on LinkedIn, they're trying to stay consistent on Instagram, they might have started a YouTube channel. Maybe they have a live show that they stream out and they're trying to grow their email list. But what's happening is there's inch deep and a mile wide because there's no cohesion to it. It's not working together as a marketing system that generates leads, warms up traffic, converts them, or rather warms up traffic, converts them to leads, and then into clients and customers. It's just, let me see how much content I can post. Because people have Told me that's what I need to do to be relevant, to build a following, et cetera.

But it also is that problem you were talking about before of not really. Of being too general. So when you're so general, you're really not building, that list that you're building is not focused enough.

Yes. And so then what we see happening is that people will say, okay, well, short form content, I'm burning out. I mean, I'm posting three, four, five times a week to all these different platforms. I don't have the time to create that much content, nor do I want to create that much content. And it doesn't seem to matter how much value I put into an Instagram carousel. I get 2 likes, 4 spam comments, and 0 dms from people asking how to work with me. And we've all been there, right? It's like, oh, it hurts because we've all been there. And so what do they do? They think, okay, let me. What I'm doing isn't working. Let me try something else. And so they've heard the buzz about how podcasts can be really powerful marketing tool, and they think, a podcast, that's what I need. Then they'll do one of two things. They'll either try to do it the way I told you not to do it, right? Which is plug in your mic, hit record, and cross your fingers and hope people listen. They go that route, or they start podcasting and they're like, I'm committed. I'm gonna do this. They're publishing every week. They're sharing it out consistently to their social media, their email list, but they've created a carbon copy of what they had in their marketing before, where all they've done is just add their podcast as one more channel. And instead of it becoming the hub that can then create the content for all of the other platforms and drive the traffic to the email list, the offers, and so forth. It's just one more thing to keep up with. And so then the joy is gone.

There's no fun in that.

There's no fun in that, right? And so there's over 20 different ways that you could drive traffic to a podcast. You don't need all 20. What we need to do is figure out the two to three that are most aligned to you, to your business, to the goals that you have for your business, for your podcast, and then dig deep on those. Go deep on those. And like you said, when you sit down once a year to reevaluate your podcast, you can always add more Things in.

I always talk about those. Like a hypothesis, right? Like that's what it is. It's like I hypothesize that my audience is on LinkedIn and that they prefer the long form content. So I'm going to try a LinkedIn newsletter. Like, that's kind of the model. And then I'll say, and I'm going to give it 25 episodes or 25 weeks, and then I'm going to look at that and see if it really did work or not. And so that's, I think that we don't do that enough. We don't say it's okay to experiment and it's okay to say, nope, I can stop. And it's not being, I'm quitting, it's saying, nope. Okay, what's the next hypothesis I'm going to test? Or what did I learn from that that I can now apply? That taught me. Maybe it wasn't. Shouldn't have been on LinkedIn. It should have been on Tumblr or something. You know, who knows?

Exactly. And I'm so glad you bring this up because I tell people at this point in the process, I'm like, look, your job as a host is to test, like, get your scientific jacket out, right? Scientific jacket, what am I even talking about? Right? Like your science jacket, right? You know, your lab coat. You, you know, get your goggles out, get your beakers out. Because we're going to test now, like, this is what we have to do as hosts. And this is, you know, this is my goal when I work with anyone to help them launch their podcast. I'm like, it's not about getting your podcast out there, it is about that, but it's really about helping you become the host of a podcast that's worthy of being in the top 100. And we have to learn how to do that. There's a learning curve to that. It's a skill that we have to master. You wouldn't go to the gym on the first day and squat 200 pounds. Like, you gotta work your way up to that. You gotta master that skill. And it takes some time and it takes some testing and tweaking.

So let's talk a little bit about Instagram, because that is before we go here, I want to make sure we get that in because you have a really great Instagram focus on your social media, and that's your strength, I think. And did that start before the podcast or was it after?

Thank you. So before the podcast, I did have an Instagram account. I was Posting consistently there. But this was in the early days of my business when I was being really general and making all those mistakes and talking to everyone because I wanted to help everyone, right? And so I never saw a lot of traction with it. And so since I've had my podcast, you know, Instagram has always been my main channel where I point people and I'm like, come DM me. Like my DMs are where it's at. And I love it when listeners send in their takeaway from an episode or where they can really engage with me. Because as we know, you know, there's no comment thread underneath episodes, right? Or there's nowhere that people can really connect with you, the host. I mean, they're consuming, they're listening, they're showing up each week. But it's kind of feels like a one way relationship in some regard. So I like to open the doorway for that two way conversation. So I'm always inviting my listeners over there. But what we have started to test this year, which actually at the time of this recording, we haven't even fully rolled out the strategy that we're about to roll out to test with Instagram and repurposing long form into short form content. But I will say that of what we have repurposed, what I do is I like right now, I have my camera set up, it's off screen, you can't see it, but I'm recording B roll from this conversation that we're having. And if there were a couple of moments in that conversation where I really felt like, gosh, that answers a question that my people are asking or that really addresses a pain point that my audience has. What we'll do is we'll send that off to be edited into like a 60 second video. It's a quick moving video. This is not just like cut out a minute of talking about something and put it on your Instagram. Like, this is a mistake that I see people make and they'll make these audio grams and it's like, you know, a minute in the Instagram stories of just some random guest talking about something and I'm like, why am I listening to this? Right? We scroll right past, there's a right and a wrong way to repurpose, in my opinion. And so what I like to do is I like to really, you know, maybe what we were talking about a moment ago with the psychology piece of the content, I might have talked for five minutes there, but all I really need to do is pull out the highlights, make it a complete thought so that someone can actually see that and take value away from it without needing the context of the whole episode and then share that. And for me, it works really well because I work with podcasters, I teach them about repurposing, so it kind of allows me to set an example in that sense. Right. And they see me out there testing different types of content and so forth. But for those that are not working with me yet, they also see me, even if it's unconscious and they're not aware of it, they see that I am not out there creating short form content. I'm repurposing long form content, which goes in a direct alignment and an integrity with what I teach, which is your podcast is the main hub of all the other content you create. So it works really well for us and it makes it so easy to share the podcast in a way that's engaging in a way that people really seem to connect with. And I'm excited to amp this up and start testing this more. But that's what we're doing this far. That's worked really well.

I love that you're doing that. I think that's so. It's recognizing what Instagram is so great at and what that audience is looking for over there separate from the long form content, where it's not just a, like, I'll take any clip, which is what happens a lot, right?

Yes. And I think we have to remember with our audiences too, especially if you serve a community of entrepreneurs, business owners, coaches, consultants, service providers, even product based business owners, the vast majority of them working professionals included in that too. The vast majority of them are not scrolling their Instagram account at night in their bed, looking to learn. They're looking to be entertained, they're looking to be distracted. They're looking for a reason to procrastinate going to sleep. Although I don't know why we're always saying how we wish we could get more sleep.

But it is how it goes.

You're right, it is how it goes. I mean, let's just be real. So there's in there scrolling their phone and they're looking for just that dopamine hit really is all they're looking for. We're being honest. So they are not interested in hearing, you know, a 92nd person droning on, you know, for however long about something that they have no context for. You know, immediately they just tune it out. And so what we have to do is we have to be good platform citizens. As someone once put it, I'm like, I love that. And so a good platform citizen is someone who understands the platform that uses the content they're creating and then reworks it however they need to to fit that platform so that they can best serve the audience on that platform. Yes, it takes an extra step. Yes, it takes a little bit more time and a little bit more thought and intentionality behind it. But if what you're doing right now is just kind of cutting out the best clip of an episode, pushing it out there and saying, okay, check the box. I shared my podcast to social media this week, and that's not getting you new listeners, then what do you have to lose? What's the alternative?

Right, like, yeah, I mean, if it's not working, it's not working. Right. I love that. Now, Courtney, you have a website and you talk repurposing. How important is that website in the repurposing?

Yeah, so our website, you know, I really look at that as something that's as static as it can be, because I don't like to have a lot of places where I have to continually touch and update and retouch and repurpose. However, there is one page that we do keep updated on our site, aside from, you know, doing regular sweeps and updating, copy, making sure links are working and all that kind of thing. And it's our press and media page. Because what I do with every single podcast episode and interview that I do, just like this, it goes on our website and we give that host a backlink, which is helpful to the host. It's helpful for SEO, but it also lets people know if they are looking at, okay, is Courtney know what she's talking about? Is she worth her salt? Do I want to bring her onto my show? Right. They can go to that page and they can click right through and listen to any one of the episodes that I have ever been a guest on on any podcast. And so what's nice about that is, yeah, it gives me a little bit of credibility to show, like, I've appeared as a guest on all these shows, here's all the topics I can talk about and so forth, but also for the host, too, because now suddenly I, as the guest, am going above and beyond to promote my episode with you in a way that's evergreen, in a way that lives on in a way that someone three years could now could find and maybe go back to. And so that's about the extent of any kind of repurposing that we do on the website itself. Our podcast website, though, we do continually update, you know, that One pulls in our audio, it pulls in our show notes, our transcript, that kind of thing. But for me, I really look at the podcast as the source of all the content. And so we just have our, our platforms, which right now are Instagram and soon to be LinkedIn. We're going to start testing with that and experimenting with that. As far as social media goes, I haven't even touched YouTube yet.

I was wondering about that. That was going to be my last question. I was like, how much are you touching YouTube yet? I think that your model on Instagram, as you refine that, that's going to be saying, what we've done over on Instagram, let's see how that plays over on YouTube. I think you're going to find some synergy and success from what I've seen from other people. And that makes it easier, right? Like, it just makes it easier if it works. And so that's always my recommendation to people, is when you're going to go, okay, okay, we're ready for this next platform. We're ready to expand it to the next channel in our platform. Let's go try this. I recommend trying exactly what you did before, then finding why it's not working over there with that channel specifically, and then making the tweaks rather than throwing everything out and starting all over again somewhere else. It's so much harder to tell what's working and what's not.

Then, yes, and exactly what you said, and I'm a huge, huge, huge proponent of this is master one platform first. You know, I've been doing my podcast for almost four years now. We've just started putting together a more serious content strategy for Instagram. And next year, we're looking at adding LinkedIn, but we're testing Instagram first. And yes, I would love to have a YouTube channel, but I'm not going to do it until I have a strategy in place and that I could do it in a way that's a leveraged use of my time and my team's time. The last thing I want to do is create the same problems that I had in my marketing before, where I was just throwing things out there just to see what people would engage with, and then letting my audience kind of dictate what I did or did not talk about or, oh, oh, my gosh, I got two extra likes on this post. That must mean people really, really engage with this topic. Let me talk about that now. Right? It's like, no, no, no. I'm the host, I'm the expert. I bring that to the table. People are naturally going to engage with some things over others. I can use that data how I want to use it in tweaking my content, always with the intention of serving my audience and never with the intention of just trying to be everywhere at once simply because I want following. You know, it's the wrong approach and it's not going to work if that's. That's your approach.

Well, I think it fits your antifragile model. Nothing is precious, right? Like, so it's okay if it breaks. We'll deal with it. I love that antifragile entrepreneurship. Courtney Elmer, thank you so much for being here and sharing your brilliance.

Oh, thank you for having me, Tracy. This has been so much fun.

I totally enjoyed meeting. It was like the meeting of the minds here for me. And I love it when somebody has like the same kind of thought process because then it really makes it great for me to be able to bounce ideas off of it. And we were both talking afterwards and we talked a lot before, so we had a lot of personal conversation that didn't make it into this episode. Sorry about that. But when you can find someone that you can truly mastermind with, and both of us hate that term, it's like there's so many masterminds out there and they've gotten it all wrong. When you can truly have mind share and bounce ideas off of each other and then help each other grow into a new place in a new space, that's truly masterminding. And I found that with Courtney in just one call. My favorite part about podcasting is right, finding someone who you can share the mental space with. And that's what we found here. So I am looking forward to doing more with Courtney in the future and having her back again. But I'm also looking forward to seeing what she does with some of the tips that I gave her offline and the analysis that she's going to do on her show. And I can't wait to see what that turns into next year. So we're going to have to have her back as a check in and see what's going on with her show. I really hope you're going to check it out because there's lots of really great things about the way she runs her show and what she's doing in it and check out that transition that's going to happen as you move forward. So make sure you subscribe to her show. The other thing that I really want you to take away from what she said is that she's always looking at growing. That is the most important thing that you can do as a podcaster here. Get started, get moving, and then keep growing. Her show has become what it is at almost 200 episodes, which I'm Congratulations. Right, Courtney? Because that is such accomplishment. And by the time you hear this, I know she's going to have 200 by that time. So you're going to see this transition that happens over time if you go back and binge listen on her show. And then you're going to see what it's going to turn into the future. That's what you need to embody and take away from Courtney as being the most valuable thing that she has done in her show is she has never stopped its progress. She hadn't treated anything like it's fragile. And that's so important. Nothing is precious. That means that you have the ability to make changes. But also making too many changes at once is too much. Make some really smart, considered and intentional choices and really look back and analyze it. And if you're not the best person to analyze it, go ask someone. That's what we're here for. That's what we do at our core company, Poditize. That's what my partner does every single day with podcasters. Take a look at their show, see where they can make improvements, see what how we can help. This is really critically important for you to get someone else's ears in, someone else's eyes in. And if it's not me, go ask Courtney. That's what she's here for. Reach out to her, DM her on Instagram. That's what she likes to hear. We'll have the show notes, of course, for this episode@thebingefactor.com and you'll be able to go in there and find out just how to get in touch with Courtney and make sure you're getting right in touch with her show as well so you can subscribe and listen again and again and get tips straight from Courtney Elmar. So thanks everyone for listening. I can't wait to be back with you again in my next podcaster, who I'm going to learn from right here on the Binge Factor.

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