Maximize Podcast Engagement with Shaunna Lee: Start Again

Warning, this podcast contains brutally honest opinions. If you're easily offended by the truth about your favorite shows, you might want to skip this. If you crave a no-holds-barred journey into what makes a podcast unskippable, then listen in as we, Tracy and Tom Hazzard, put our expertise and relationship to the test here on The Binge Factor. Hey everyone, welcome to The Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard, and as always, I have great podcasters that come across my desk. One of the main ways is Podmatch, which I absolutely love, and Alex Sanfilippo has been on the show before, so you've heard me talk about him frequently. Podmatch is one of the great ways that I get in touch with some new people who are looking at promoting their show, and what I really love about it is that it is someone who's actively looking at ways to grow their show, so they make better guests. And Shauna's no exception. So I have Shauna Lee today, the Start Again Podcast. I love that. Start again is such a great concept. She's a bestselling author with a wealth of experience leading women through their own start again moments. She offers one-on-one coaching and a self-paced online course. She also writes books and hosts 2 podcasts. Her work centers around body, mind, soul alignment, falling in love, and learning to monetize your gifts. Well, for so many of you, podcasting is your gift. You may not have realized it till you got started, And that's such a brilliant thing. So if you haven't started your show, think about starting now. If you started one and maybe it didn't go quite right, maybe it's time to start again. Hopefully, Shauna Lee is going to inspire you on that front as well. So let's get to the interview with Shauna Lee, Start Again. Shauna, so glad to have you here with me. And start again, like, it's been really weird, but I've had a lot of podcasters who have started again. So this might be a really good topic of starting again in your life, starting again after divorce, starting again if you quit your show prematurely and now you'd like to start it up again.

Oh yes. Well, it is a concept that applies across the board, let me tell you. Yes. Well, thank you for having me.

I appreciate it.

Happy to be here.

I love that. Did you have Start Again as sort of in your business model already, or did that come out of the podcast?

The podcast came out of the business concept. So if I'm really honest, It all started from a really shame-filled period in my life, right? So I was coming out of my third divorce and feeling quite embarrassed about my personal life and how many stumbles I had. And I had this idea to create, and it wasn't my idea. I always say I had this idea, but it really, I think these nuggets of wisdom and knowledge, these whispers from the universe are not ours. They're ours to take action on. And it was to write a book about recovering from divorce. And I thought, no way can I do this. And So I kept hearing it. So initially I wrote the book, So You're Divorced, So What? And it really was the catalyst for everything that came after that. And it was this concept of it's never too late to start a new thing and you're never too old to do that thing that is calling to you. So I had been hearing the whisper to write a book my whole life and I waited till my mid-forties to finally do it. And then shortly after I started getting some practice listening to my intuition and kind of following those nudges. I was hearing podcasts as a way of growing my audience and building my business. And then it just kind of all came together with this Start Again concept.

And I've listened to a lot of your topic episodes, which I absolutely love that you were doing solo topics. So I'm really glad that you didn't wait till you got 100 episodes in to discover that they would be good for you. So I'm so glad you did that earlier because it kind of— a lot of people have that aha later in their show. You've done it earlier and so important. But the solo shows, you talk about this a lot, that you really talk about this concept of just getting a fast start and getting going and getting moving and how important that is. Did you take that advice for yourself on the podcast? Did you get a fast start? Did you just jump in?

Yes and no. Initially, I wanna say, oh my God, no, no, I didn't do that because I heard the whisper. I will say it might take me a little bit to take that first step, but the reason I'm so much a fan of imperfect action, and that's what I talk about a lot on the show, is just do the damn thing. Jump in, do it imperfectly, get started. It's because you build momentum and you build your confidence along the way, and each step prepares you for the next step, prepares you for the next step. And so that I have done, that piece of the advice of my own I do take. But yeah, that first step sometimes takes us a little bit to get there.

What did you find the most daunting part with starting the podcast?

Nothing that I anticipated.

Isn't it the thing that we're like most concerned about doesn't turn out to be the problem?

So I wasn't concerned at all initially about growing my audience. I was more afraid of what people were going to think of me when I was creating these solo episodes. Oh my gosh, what are people going to think about me giving advice on this any one topic? Until I realized in the very beginning, like, you're doing good to get a couple of people to listen to your episodes. So then I was like, oh, okay. Oh shoot. Now I need to grow an audience. How do I get this message in front of the people who need to hear the message. Like, I feel like I'm speaking to a black hole sometimes. It's just sending my message out into the ethers, and I know it's meant for people that it hasn't reached yet. And so that was the one thing that I had not anticipated, that that was going to become so much of my focus and a bigger challenge than I expected.

And I wish people would articulate it just that way. It's like, I need to grow my audience, yes, but what I really need to also do is be there for the person that needs me the most. At the right time, in the right place.

Which is why I wrote my book and it's why I created the podcast because some people read and some people listen. Like that's just how it goes. But I know what the encouragement I have to give, there is a woman out there or many who need to hear that in the way that I'm going to say it so that they will get up off the couch and go take the first step towards whatever it is that they're wanting to do.

Yeah, I think that's so important. And the thing is, especially when we're talking about something that's in deep pain, which might be starting again, could be from a deep pain, or as you put it, even from shame position, that those are things that we consume when we are ready. No one can push you into that. And that may be at 2 in the morning. It may not be on your livestream schedule.

For sure. And I think it's interesting because so far a lot of my book purchases have been gifts for other people. And some of the people, they're like, oh my gosh, my best friend is going through a divorce. I need to give this to her. And the thing about it is for that book specifically, it really is Intended for the day you wake up and you're like, okay, I think I can do this. That's when you're ready to read the book. It's not when you're going through the trauma of the loss that you're going to be in a headspace to be able to even consume it. And so the podcast is the same, I think.

So, so important. Well, growing your audience. Let's talk about that because you said that was your biggest challenge. What ways have you tried? What did you abandon? What did you keep doing? What's working for you?

So far it's been word of mouth. And what is interesting is a lot of my personal circle, my friends and family, many of them are married and not divorced. And so for them to support me feels wrong. It feels like they are celebrating divorce. And I've actually had that feedback a lot. And so my word of mouth through those circles isn't super effective. And so attempted social media. Listen, and I have been in Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn. I have not jumped on the TikTok bandwagon. I'm on Threads. I'm in all the places and that can feel really discombobulated. And I would love to hone in on a focused approach that is actually effective. And I am still searching for what that is, if I'm honest.

Oh, and you know what? You're not alone. That's the number one thing I hear from everyone who comes on this show, no matter how many episodes in they are, hundreds. They all say the same thing, that they really have not figured out the formula to what's working for them yet. I think you're not alone though. There's a lot of shows that I encounter, shows on addiction, shows on divorce, shows on widowhood, shows on that are in a deep pain position, but also something that maybe you're not surrounded with people experiencing the same thing as you at that moment in time. So it is so hard for them to grow an audience. It's harder for them to grow an audience than other And that's why your guesting network, and that's what I want to talk about next here, is just the guests that you have on your show. Your guests are so important because hopefully they have reach into an audience. And so you were telling me before we started recording here that you've got quite a backlog of guest interviews, and it's why you went from having 2 guest interviews a month to now having one every week. So having your solo show and your guest interview show every single week, you have both of them because you had so many guests. So what— Have you been doing as you've been screening through and deciding who's going to make a right guest for you?

So I haven't been doing the make or break yet. I have been essentially leaving it up to the universe. And if they come across my plate, I will interview them. And that was kind of my initial approach. And what I have found is initially I had the overwhelm of my calendar being full. And so then I had to create some automated mechanisms to prevent that from happening, which thankfully I've got a corporate background. So I know how to take advantage of technology to work in my favor. And so I was able to automate a lot of that and really limit and create some boundaries. I went from recording twice a week to only one day a week. So I'm really kind of trying to narrow the funnel at this point. But what's interesting about being inundated with all of these requests, I would wake up literally on a Wednesday morning with 4 interviews scheduled and then 2 of them would, would fall off. And so just naturally things are kind of falling into place. I will say of all the interviews I've done thus far, there's probably really only 2 out of maybe, I don't know, 30 that I have felt like, hmm, maybe that one wasn't quite aligned. And so I'm in the position now where I can say, I'm sorry, it didn't make the cut, or I can just air it and be more selective in the future. And that's kind of the crossroads that I'm at, to be honest, is deciding how I want to do that. But I think moving forward, PodMatch was really helpful in this way that I could really hone in and be more specific about the types of guests that I wanted to have on. And so that was another kind of Qualifying mechanism, the intake form on my website, I can be more selective there and kind of create those mechanisms moving forward. I think I'm to the point now where I can be selective, which is such a good problem to have, if I'm honest, because for a while there I was just, how am I going to get people to want to come on my show? And so it's shifted. The story has totally changed.

That's really valuable. That's one of the— I have a Feed Your Brand episode that I did on that. That's our sister podcast. And we did it on the 4 types of podcast guests. And it's that thing is that sometimes you need a different type of guest at a different stage of the podcast, a different stage of your business. And you're at that stage where that you're at that tipping point where, okay, I need a different type of guest. Now maybe you need a guest with bigger reach, right? One who has the right type of audience for you, but that bigger reach and you're right at that point. And that's your new screening criteria, totally different from what it might've been 3 months ago.

Completely. And I will say it's allowing me to, I am going to have men on the podcast for the first time next season, which is really exciting. Men have some things to say too. And so I'm really excited about kind of opening it up to, so next season will be focused on authors while this season we've been focused on business owners. So I really wanted to kind of, it's allowing me to create themes within my seasons and each month, the way that they have just fallen naturally, there are kind of some themes to those conversations. So it's been really cool to kind of be able to cultivate that a little more intentionally.

Now, are you tying your seasons and your themes to your marketing plans as well?

Yes.

In what way are you doing that?

Naturally, it kind of fell in this way, but it's allowing me to create those conversations that happen around— honestly, some of them have been more focused on life after divorce. Some of them have been more focused on actually starting the business. And so for October, I'm very excited that I already know that that's going to be love month. It's not usually the month we talk about love. It's like Breast Cancer Awareness, I believe.

Yeah, it's really the opposite of that.

So I'm just gonna do my own thing, but so it's gonna be Love Month and I've got a book that I'm writing, a course that I'll be promoting that month. So it'll tie in really well together.

I think that's so important that a lot of podcasters overlook the opportunity to theme them to what you're doing and to what you're promoting in that given time period. And that it's just a highly overlooked way to make sure that there is synergy in everything that you're putting out there and promoting in your email lists and your social media And in your podcast that they tie together. And because we record ahead, sometimes we forget to publish them at the right times, right?

Exactly. And I think actually I was just struggling to get content and that was the missing piece for me. I wanted it to feel like the podcast was playing into whatever I was promoting, but also it was part of what I was talking about in my emails and it gave me appropriate content for social media and I wanted it all to play really nicely together. I don't want it to feel artificially cultivated, but I wanted it to blend nicely and play well together.

Now you have the Start Again Club, which is your email list that you're building on your website. So how is it going? You know, I think this is one of the things a lot of podcasters struggle with, but how do you get listeners off of it and into the email list? Is that working for you? Are you finding any mechanisms where you're able to do that easier?

I think this is one of the mistakes I made, if I'm honest. I wasn't using my podcast guests as a way to add them naturally or automatically to my email list. Because listen, we get so many emails. I want people to opt in intentionally, despite all the regulations that we have in place that require us to do that. I want people to want to be on that list. I want them to want to receive my emails because they're adding value, they're helping them. And not just because I'm going to be another person, another name in their inbox, trying to sell them something. And so I haven't used my guest. What I do is create an invitation in the initial email, like, yay, thanks for being a willing participant and a guest on my podcast. I want to invite you to also be a member of the Start Again Club. So that's what I'm doing so far. I've had a couple, so I wouldn't say it's super successful. I am all ears for suggestions because I hadn't really contemplated my guests becoming my clients thus far. And so new way of looking at things, I suppose.

A very different model. And you know, this is Look, it's no secret here. I'd share it all the time, what a guest funnel looks like, right? And I model that for people all the time. And the reality is, is that what I've found personally is that guests have a bigger ego than your listeners. And so they do not like to be lumped into a mass mail process. They want something special. So if you created a special VIP list with special things that you gave them, some downloads, some other things, some special things that you gave them, you might get that to track for you than you would if you just put them in the same list that everybody else goes into. They think they're above the bucket.

So I totally can see that. And I had been on the receiving end of that, requesting to be a guest and then didn't get a spot on the podcast, but did become a member of their email list. And I thought, well, that's not really what I asked for. So I think overcompensating to not do the same thing.

Right, right, exactly. Well, now this is the question that I want to ask you here is because the number one part I see fall apart. So there are people who are really working hard to do a great job at opting in people to their list, but then they're not emailing them regularly. Are, do you have a regular system? What are you doing in follow-up? What's in your email list when somebody joins your club?

I have a weekly newsletter that goes out and I'll be honest right now, because I'm so inundated with podcasting that that has been what is included in that, but it is very much just adding value, providing reminders. Here are the episodes that went live this week. Before that, I would say I was consistently emailing people once a week at a minimum. I have a few automated email, not funnels necessarily, but there's some automated pieces in place when they first sign up and when they join certain programs. But outside of that, I'm trying to get consistent with my once a week at a minimum, reaching out to them. One, so they don't forget about me so that I can add some value to them, but also so that I can create the habit.

Create the habit.

Exactly.

Well, and that's what I think, I think happens is that you get somebody to sign in and then you're like, I'm going to use it when I need to promote something. And that's not what they were anticipating when they were getting it. They want more connections with you.

Absolutely. And that was part of my reasoning behind calling my email list A Start Again Club. I wanted them to feel like they are part of a club and they are getting preferential treatment. You are getting information that you're not going to see on social media, that you're not going to hear in the podcast. I'm going to remind you of all those things that I'm doing out there as well, but I want it to feel like they're a member of a club and that they're getting something out of being a member.

Now let's talk a little about social, seeing you mentioned that right there. How is social working for you? How do you promote your podcast on social media?

I would say social media is a lot of work for me right now.

I think you're not alone there either.

And I think what I've tried to do is really hone in on which platform makes the most sense for me to be on. I need to go back and look at my analytics for the last month to see if the posts with audio clips are making a difference, because I've kind of been on the fence. Like, does a static photo, does a reel, or a photo with the audio— like, what is actually making people Look at that post and go listen to an episode because I haven't quite figured that out. Right now what I'm trying to use mostly Instagram and LinkedIn for is like a visual business card. This is what I'm up to. These are the things I'm working on, just kind of letting people know, staying front of mind. But I haven't, I've pulled back from using that as an input mechanism.

Yeah, because it's really hard. You're interrupting their social media process with trying to get them to go listen somewhere else. But that doesn't mean that then divorce doesn't happen to them and they're like, oh, I remember Shauna Lee was posting about this and there's a podcast out there. I can go check that out. So like it will help them. I think that's a difficult place is that the media's types don't always match. Podcasting and social media don't always match. And that's why I think a lot of podcasters have opted for video.

It makes sense.

Yeah. What have you thought about video?

Oh, I have avoided it kicking and screaming.

That's what I suspected, but I hadn't asked you that question beforehand, but I was like, I suspect I suspect that she doesn't really love video.

No. And it's not that I'm opposed to being on video. Like I created plenty of my online programs with me creating videos of myself. So that piece is not the obstacle. I like creating a podcast where I don't have to do my hair and makeup. I like the idea of being able to roll up and have a conversation in my pajamas and not worry about what it looks like. And so I think that's really what initially got me over the hump to say, okay, yes, I can do a podcast was because I had that Let me just sit here real comfy cozy and then record a conversation. I definitely see that's the direction where everything's going. It totally makes sense as to why video is more fruitful. I'm just not there yet.

I think I'd hold back if I were you, because as I mentioned, I have a big segment of my client base who have these deep pain position type shows, shows in addiction, shows in divorce, shows in widowhood. Those ones do not do as well on video. It doesn't transfer into listeners. And I think it's because it's a really private thing and we don't want to be watching it on our phone while we're out in public somewhere.

It is true. So a lot of my conversations are not actually about divorce at all, which is interesting. It's a core component of what I do and why I do it, but it's not what we talk about. So it's not necessarily going through the divorce or talking about how hard it is. We all know that. And it makes us feel like Tender little babies. And so it's more about, you got this girl, get up off the couch. You can do whatever it is you want to do. You're free now to do whatever it is. And so it's more about creating the opportunity and the awareness to what is possible.

So that would be the spinoff, right? So it's like, how do you use your inspirational pieces on video would be the way to create it rather than saying, create a synopsis of my show or create a little clip for my show, right? You're really selectively choosing. the parts that you're utilizing out in there. So yeah, I think that could really work for you. That's a really good idea. Speaking of, you mentioned to me you were looking at planning your 100th episode. You're planning nice and far ahead because I think as time— as we speak of this, you've got like 50 published. So what's up? What's going to be happening in the second half and how are you going to celebrate 100?

Well, listen, I can't even believe that I'm talking about 100th episode at this point. Like, this is only my second year into podcasting and I just thought 100 seems so far away. I didn't even think about it until— so I actually have 2 podcasts, but the other one is like just this super fun thing we do with my girlfriend and I, and we just chat about random stuff. But it was on one of those that I was talking about this problem I created of all these people, and I'm going to be at my 100th episode before I know it. And I just said it and didn't even think about it. And one of my friends listened to the episode and said, I think you need to throw a big party when you get there. And I thought, well, that sounds fun. And so we're just gonna plan a big party. I'm hoping that the way it falls into place, and of course I create this reality if I would like, is I would love for that to be happening at the end of season 3. So then it's kind of wrapping up that third season. It'll be a great celebration of, look, I've done 3 seasons of a podcast and I reached 100 episodes. I don't even know if that's normal or realistic for a timeframe. I've seen plenty of podcasts who struggle to get to 20.

So there's an elite 2% that make it over 100 episodes.

2%. Didn't even know that.

Yeah. So it's small, small number of shows that make over 100.

So it warrants a party.

It warrants a party. And you know what I just did on a coaching call today? I was just giving the suggestion that it's a great way to get local publicity. So newspapers, magazines, local media doesn't like to cover a podcast launch because they know that they quit too quickly.

Yes. That's what we encountered with the other one. We did this big launch party and everyone was like, wah wah.

Yeah. 'Cause you'll probably quit it before like we ever finish the drink here.

Right. Right?

Like, that's the way people think. So they won't publicize it. But when you hit 100, you earned it, and they're more likely to cover it. It could get you more publicity and more listeners. It could be a great growth strategy. So you have to tell me how it comes, how it comes out. You'll have to come back and tell us all about it. Well, I don't wanna leave before I tell you what I believe your binge factor is, which is my job to psychoanalyze all the shows, all the people's shows who come on here, all the great hosts. And so I think that Start Again, This binge factor is truly in the play between guests, stories, and topics. And the fact that you have this interplay between the two is what creates this opportunity for me to want to binge on your show, to want to consume more. And by skipping me around, by not doing a whole show that's guests and a whole show that's all on topics, by mixing them in, I'm seeing great guest topics and great guest ideas and stories as I'm going through and perhaps skipping to some of the topics that I'm looking for. So you're giving people an opportunity to say, oh, I don't wanna miss that. And before you know it, you're binging on your entire show.

I love it.

So loving having you here, Shauna. I'm so glad you are podcasting. I'm so glad the Start Again podcast is out there. What can we do to support you or any questions that you might have that we could address those getting started again on their podcast? What advice can you bring to them from your expertise area?

Well, the one I come back to off over and over again is this idea of Baby steps are better than no steps. So we know that as we take one step, we build momentum, we build confidence. That first initial step does not have to be a grand leap of faith. It can be a tiny baby step towards where you're wanting to go because that will build your momentum. So the very first step is the most important one, and it can be as tiny as you need it to be.

Oh, such important advice. Shawna Lee, thank you for the Start Again podcast. I can't wait for your next 100.

Thank you for having me. It's been so much fun.

Start Again Podcast. I love the name. It's just one of the things that's resonated with me. We've had a lot of people, as I mentioned in the show, that have started again, that have like come back to podcasting. It's been a great trend, and I think it is that they may have gotten disenfranchised with the podcasting model and then moved off to do something else and found it not as effective. That's such an interesting find for us. So what a shame for those of you who haven't started yet, for you not to be the first ones to start, to get going and find out if it's right for you. for you. I hope you were inspired by Shauna Lee today and getting that baby step going, as she mentioned at the end here and mentioned early on as well, that getting that motivation to take that first step, no matter how small it is, is so, so important. And really, I feel like there's an overwhelm, right? There's such an overwhelm in every marketing thing we do, whether it's TikTok, it's podcasting, it's live streaming, it's YouTube Shorts. It doesn't really matter what it is. We get overwhelmed in all the details and all the nuances, and we frankly Don't know what we don't know before we get started, right? And so it isn't until you start again that you have a better sense of what it is that you really should have focused on. And I think Shauna's answer was one of the most original answers to the question, what daunted you about podcasting and what surprised you about it? And when I asked that question, most often I get a fairly typical response, but her answer that it wasn't What she originally thought it was gonna be is so telling, right? That's how it really does feel to all of us podcasting is the things that we end up loving about it weren't things that we expected in it. And the things that we were most afraid of, or it took us so long to get started. I hear this from my clients all the time, right? They're like, I was so worried about all this and that turned out to be the easy part. But her finding the audience building more challenging than she thought is actually the really big challenge for everyone. And I can't tell you how many Social media influencers I have who come in with this fabulous amount of confidence in how easy it is for them to build an audience. But when they find out that they don't get an Instagram boost, they don't get a TikTok boost, that there's no algorithm helping them get listeners, they get totally upset with podcasting and they think the media type is such a failure. But that's the chance for those of you who believe in deep community, believe in building a club like Start Again, right? Believe in building people and gathering people around a central idea, a central topic, a central theme, you have a bigger chance to make podcasting work for you. So I really hope you were inspired by Shauna's episode today. And I hope that if you are one of those people and you already have a podcast, you reach out to me and invite yourself on my show because I would love to talk with those of you doing a great job growing and building a community. So thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazzard here on The Binge Factor, and I can't wait to talk to you next time.

Bye.

To talk with you next time. Get ready to binge on our next podcast deconstruction as we uncover the hidden mistakes that can make or break a show. Want your podcast to have that irresistible binge factor too? Go to podcastersunited.org for a treasure trove of free resources and live expert coaching. Don't let your podcasting voice fade out. Renovate your show today before your podcast becomes a money pit and not a moneymaker.