Meet Crowdfunding Launch Expert Will Ford

Protect your brand, product or invention from the hazards of consumer product launching and go from idea to product to big brand. With guidance from retail product design and development experts Tracy and Tom Hazard. Get the insider secrets to put the right things in the right order with the right resources so you can out design, outsource and out profit your way to retail success.

Hey, product launchers. I'm excited to bring you something you have been asking me for. You have been asking me to bring an expert on Kickstarter Indiegogo startup funding. You've been asking me for an expert and I brought you one. I found will ford launchboom.com and I am so excited because he's got so many that he's run through that. He's got some great stats and you know how I love stats. I love actionable items that come from been there, done that information and he's got that for you.

So.

Hey, Will, thanks for joining me.

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me, Tracy. I just want to thank you again for inviting me on the show. Just want everyone to understand that we've been crowdfunding longer than any other agency out there. Since I've started the company, we have launched more successful crowdfunding campaigns on Kickstarter, on Indiegogo than any other agency in the world.

You're not just saying that. You are on their homepage.

Exactly. If you go to Kickstarter, Indiegogo, go to their expert page. You'll learn all about launch boom. You can see a lot of the projects that we've launched and every single day we have entrepreneurs, we have inventors. Anyone product specific will reach out to us. Who's interested in crowdfunding? And everyone always has the same question, Will, how do I launch a million dollar crowdfunding campaign?

Well, before we get to that, I want to step back a little bit. How did you get, I mean, excited and interested in the crowdfunding world? Because it's hit and miss, right? How'd you get started there?

Yeah. So I am a serial entrepreneur. I have built three companies, I've sold three companies. I started LaunchBoom after I sold my last company. It was a company called Pet Box. It was a subscription e commerce company. And one of my advisors who helped me exit the deal, sell the deal, he asked me to help a Navy seal launch a consumer product. And I said, have you ever thought of launching on Kickstarter? And he said, I have no idea what that means. Yeah. So he basically just said, hey, what do I need to do? And I said, you know what, just give me a small budget for Facebook and Instagram advertising. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to figure out what the demand is, who the customers are before we go live on Kickstarter.

Ahaha. We're going to talk about that now because it's the before part that is so critically important. So how do you launch a million dollar crowdfunded campaign?

Yeah, Tracy, that's a really great question. I get that question every single day. And the truth is we never launch any crowdfunding campaign until we understand how to control the outcome. What I mean by that is launch boom. The core of our business is digital marketing. What we do is we've built a systematized process. It's a predictive model. And what we do before we launch any project is we take it through a 30 day test pilot. And all that means is that we're figuring out the messaging, the positioning, and then we're testing everything. We're trying to figure out who the customers actually are that want to buy any specific product that we're launching. And then based on the data, we let the data drive the process. We build more content specific to those best performing audiences. So we're spending 30 days figuring out what the expected return is going to be from any advertising budget to support a million dollar crowdfunding campaign.

That is so, so interesting because what you're doing is you're basically saying, look, only certain things work. Which is, if any one of you have read my articles on Kickstarter out there, you'll know that. That's what I keep harping on, right? Like I keep saying that only certain types of products or certain types of campaigns work really well on Kickstarter and, or Indiegogo or any of these crowdfunding platforms, that they're very specific and they have certain metrics and formulas and other things and you found them in terms of being able to predict them ahead of time. That's amazing.

Thank you. No, Tracy took years to build the system. It's been working really, really, really well since January 2017. But it took me years beforehand to build.

Wasn't easy and it was a lot of trial and error, a lot of testing. But what we've learned is that we can figure out, based on Facebook, Instagram advertising, we can figure out how much demand there actually is for any product. And then what we do is we run it through a 30 day test pilot. I call it test boom because it's more in line with my branding here at LaunchBoom. And what we're doing is we're taking it through and we're actually understanding what the expected return is going to be from every dollar in the system. So every dollar you put into launch, boom. I need to know that I'm getting three or more out in actual sales before I get excited to commit to a full product launch and spend another six to eight weeks behind it. Building the videos, scaling the ads, engaging the audiences with email marketing, and then I only turn on the campaign when I actually can control the outcome. I'm setting a goal that I know I can exceed within the first 24 hours after we launch, whether I launch on Kickstarter or Indiegogo. And when I do this, we outperform the thousands of live campaigns on those platforms and it literally pushes our campaign to the very top of the rankings on those platforms.

So how soon should someone come to you? Because do you start before the 30 days? So this is something that I think a lot of people, if you haven't done any kind of. I'm going to call it funnel marketing, right? Any kind of marketing where you're doing an ad and you're sending people somewhere to do something and possibly doing multiple steps in the process, right? I'm assuming that's kind of what you're doing from Facebook and Instagram to find out the information is that there's some kind of process flowing from there, right?

Yep, that's exactly right. So, I mean, I always tell everyone. So the reason Launchroom is set up the way it's set up, being an entrepreneur, know how hard it is to launch any type of product, especially consumer products. And I know more importantly that it can be really, really risky financially if you're not crowdfunding, right? Because you've got to put all the money into tooling, manufacturing. You've got to come up with a really clever marketing strategy and launch plan.

And you gotta have a great brand, right? You gotta put some money in your branding.

You've got to put money into branding and you've got to really make sure that you've nailed your strategy. Because if you don't, you can be underwater really, really fast. So what I've done with Launch Move is I've created a system that makes it really affordable, really simple to test. Any idea that you may have. To answer your question, I like to work with entrepreneurs, inventors, business owners. Once they have a good enough prototype, it doesn't have to be a perfect prototype, but it has to be a prototype that they understand and know how to manufacture. Because once I have that prototype, I can create some basic images around it, I can build up my marketing assets, but at that point, that's when I'm ready to do my testing. So to answer your question, about three months before a product launch, that's the ideal time for me to get started. What I do is I take it through a 30 day test, the test checks out, I can show data showing a big demand. Then and only then do we go into a full program and we put a larger budget into it. Because what I've learned is that the only difference between $100,000 campaign and a million dollar campaign comes down to having access to larger advertising budgets that more importantly perform better. And based on the model we have today, we know even after the test what the expected return is going to be. So when you reverse engineer the numbers, when you understand what the margins are, when you understand what the average order value of that product is going to sell in the marketplace for, and then you also look at the cost per lead and the cost per acquisition. Because what I'm doing during the test is once I get people to opt in, saying that they're interested in us notifying them once we're ready to launch, I then say, oh, by the way, you can guarantee the best discount today. And I actually have them pull out credit cards and transact with us before Kickstarter, before Indiegogo. So in essence, what we're doing, we're pre selling the pre sale on Kickstarter, on Indiegogo, and we build a huge engaged audience that's hyper focused. So when we turn it on, we literally can sit back and just watch the money pour in.

I love it. I love it. That's amazing. So I'm assuming you actually do need more than a prototype. You need pricing too, right? You need an anticipated pricing. So someone needs to know how much this is going to cost them in tooling. Cost them. They need some of that and a lot of them don't have that. I assume that's why you mentioned to me before we got on this interview that you see about 300 startups to launch ideas a month and only half of them are ready, are even like potentially ready.

Yep, that's right. Yes. All right, so the best way to explain that is. So my test pilot, the Test Boom program, in all honesty, it's probably the most important work we do for any of our clients because the very first thing we do is we send out a messaging questionnaire. This messaging questionnaire is where we get all the information about that idea, about that product. Because then what we do internally is we do a deep dive and we do our own market research and we look at what truly makes that product or idea superior than anything else currently out there. Then we look at pricing. Right, because we have to help them figure out how to price it so it's competitive in the marketplace. So then once we get all that nailed down and we build out the messaging and we identify the audiences we want to go target, then we build and create the assets and then we go out and we test it all. So again, we're even testing pricing, Tracy, during that test. Boom. So by the time we get through that 30 day test, not only do we know who the customers are, but we also know exactly that sweet spot when it comes to pricing and more importantly, understanding what that profit margin is for our clients.

Well, yeah, because that's where I think a lot of Kickstarters in the early days especially, but do fall apart because they didn't dial in and get they have a prototype and they think they know what it's going to cost, but they don't really have an understanding of what it's going to take to make that, what it's going to take to land that, what it's going to take to deliver that, and they don't have that in. So then they discover that the price isn't working, they lower their price and now they're really in trouble because their profit margin wasn't there.

Yeah, you just nailed it on the head. Part of what we like to do, Tracy, even before we even think about going live on Kickstarter or Indiegogo, we like to understand who the manufacturers are, what the turnaround time is. Right. Because as long as we have all those variables up front by the time we launch, we can always deliver a great experience. One thing I'm learning about these crowdfunding campaigns, these backers that come in and buy these products and pre order these products, they're very, very loyal. And the reason I say that is most of our clients aren't just one hit wonders, they're launching multiple products a year. And what we're finding is that if we launching multiple products under the same brand, we're finding that we're getting larger and larger conversions off those initial backers, whether it's a first campaign, second campaign, third campaign. And we're getting bigger and bigger outcomes and better return on the new ad spends to support the new products. So these backers on Kickstarter and Indiegogo, they're very loyal. As long as. As you do two things. You deliver a good product and two. On or ahead of schedule?

On. On schedule. Yes, on schedule. Those are the big publicity problems that we see with Kickstarter and Indiegogo. A lot of the. The ones. But to me, the ones that fail, the ones that fail because of that, they failed because they did not do their homework before they ever would have seen you. Right. That prototype really wasn't ready for prime time. They really didn't get a decent manufacturer behind it. They didn't get those things in order because I have seen them.

You're 100% correct. So I think one of the aspects I'm most proud of my Entire team at LaunchBoom is we have never not delivered a product that we've launched.

How good for you. So you're really screening applicants really well and really looking through that and really making sure that they're ready.

Not only screening, but more importantly, making sure we launch when everyone's ready to launch. Like you said, a lot of people get really excited. They just want to get the product to market and they haven't really thought through everything necessary to ensure that it's going to be successful. The problem is if you launch and you don't know how to manufacture and you upset your early backers, it's probably going to be an uphill battle.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's talk about some key characteristics because you and I kind of had a little chat about this when I first met you and it's that backers are actually not the same as consumers in mass market. Let's say shoppers and backers are two different types of people. And so you kind of had to dial in psychologically as to how you advertise and psychographically in some ways about how to get to that, how to get them to understand it. So that's why maybe some products aren't a good fit.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good point for us. I only work with consumer hardware, physical, tangible products. I have a lot of people reaching out to me with really good software development ideas or they want to go make a really cool. I've seen them, they want to make apps and they're great ideas. But for me to get excited, it's got to be a tangible, physical hardware, consumer product. And then secondly, the reason we're so laser focused on just our vertical of crowdfunding, because you're right, what we're learning is that we have a huge, huge advantage. So anyone interested in crowdfunding the reason a lot of them choose launchboom is because we have huge, massive backer email audiences in our database. So every time we launch a product, we're able to retain a copy of those backer audiences. Now, we can't just send an email for our next client because that's called spam. We don't have permission to do that. But the strategic advantage we have, the moat that protects our business, our business model, is these hundreds of thousands of backer emails in our database. And what we can do with them is we can plug them into our Facebook dashboards, we can create lookalike audiences, we can do direct targeting. And all that means is that everyone in our database has had a good experience. We've never not delivered.

Right. Right there, guys. You may not understand that, and if you don't, that's okay. Let's kind of define it a little bit for you. But what he's talking about is the fact that whenever you're in a new product category, whenever you're in a new marketplace. So, like, we do this all the time. Like, Target consumers are very different from Costco consumers. Right? And so you have to rely on the fact that someone like me, who's designed for them for decades, already knows what they're like and what they're likely to buy. And in his case, what he's got is he's got a database of what they are, and he can create a lookalike audience over here that will show them and say, find other people like them. And that's so valuable because when you're a startup, you have to build that all yourself. You cannot do that. It's so much money to do that. You will waste lots of dollars going through the wrong audiences till you find the right people.

You guys. So Tracy's got a huge point there, and I'm glad you brought that up, because a lot of the work, you know, Tracy and her team have done over the years is they've designed for big box retail. They've done some really big projects. Everything I'm creating from a marketing perspective, ultimately, it doesn't really matter to me what Indiegogo or Kickstarter are expecting. What I'm designing, I'm designing for Facebook and Instagram. So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to create content that has a better chance of going viral, because if it goes viral, your return on that ad dollar is going to go through the roof, and it's going to allow us to draw so much more backer. Support from those monster audiences that are on Kickstarter and Indiegogo. A lot of people don't realize this, but Kickstarter has over 40 million monthly unique visitors every month from around the world looking for cool stuff. And they're willing to give you money now as long as they're the first ones to receive the product and they're going to get a discount. On the other hand, Indiegogo isn't far behind them. They have close to 20 million monthly unique visitors each and every month. Now what's interesting is a lot of people come to me and they go, where do we launch Kickstarter or Indiegogo? And so that's usually a conversation we have once we understand, but we've actually what's interesting is the space I'm playing in, it's changing and evolving very fast. We used to, when I first started, only launch first on Kickstarter and then as soon as that was over, would launch on indiegogo in demand.

Oh, so you could do back to back campaigns. That's interesting.

You can. But what's happened this year, which is really interesting is we've been launching more of our projects first on Indiegogo and running Indiegogo campaigns and skipping over Kickstarter because we're getting much stronger conversions and we're actually, we've run more million dollar campaigns this year on Indiegogo and it's only September, guys. Than we have. Yeah, than we have.

What do you attribute that to? I mean, is it just Indiegogo sort of gained its ground and it's just hit its stride because it was behind Kickstart starting or has started. Just had too many failures?

No, Tracy, like, great question. I've spent a lot of time at Kickstarter offices in Brooklyn, New York. I spent a lot of time with Indiegogo. They've got offices in New York as well as San Francisco. That's where they're headquartered. And in all honesty, the one thing, the reason why I believe Indiegogo is really taking a much more competitive approach to the market opportunity. They have a huge customer support team, a campaign support team, whereas Kickstarter doesn't really have that and that's not a focus for them. So what Indiegogo is doing today, which I think is so much better, is they're reaching out to our campaigners earlier, before launch and they're offering support, they're understanding the products and they're actually driving a lot more traffic internally once they know we're ready to launch. So because of that, it's just, it's adding so much more.

That's a really smart strategy on their part because I mean, their whole financial model depends on your success, right? And the greater your success, the better they do as well. So that's really smart that they're doing that rather than kind of just like, oh, well, we'll leave it up to you and Tracy.

Like, I know we don't have too much time, so it's just really interesting. So Kickstarter back in, I want to say 2016, but don't hold me to that. They actually filed as a B corporation. And so what's really interesting is that they're taking a very different approach with where they're going. They're focused on. It doesn't really. They don't really care as much about having those huge million dollar campaigns. They care more about supporting those social causes that are gonna promote social good.

See, and I would have thought it would been the opposite. Like in my books, like Indiegogo, like, you think indie films, you think, you know, like you would have thought it was the opposite.

No, but you're right. And so indiegogo has taken a totally different approach, which is much more in line with what we're focused on here at LaunchBoom. We love hardware, Indiegogo loves hardware. And they're investing a lot more resources into this outreach team.

Okay? So I have to tell you, Will, you've like converted me right now. I'm about to like bring my partner over here and have a discussion about the new product we're about to launch with you. Because. And you know what, I have to tell you that like, that like, he's going to think I drank some like weird kool Aid or something just now because it is not something that would have ever uttered out of my mouth that we will ever do a crowdfunding campaign, but we may just do that before we hit next year.

Yeah. And honestly. So you asked a question like the key with any million dollar campaign. A lot of people come to me, hey, Will, I need a good PR strategy. Honestly, PR is good, but I'm really leery when it comes to pr because I've worked with hundreds of PR agencies and a lot of it's smoke and mirrors. They sell a good story, but then very little comes to fruition.

Now, and here's why. And I'm going to tell you this because I'm in the media, right? So I write a column for Inc. And because I write product design in the innovation section, right? I cannot tell you how many Kickstarter pitches, Indiegogo pitches I have received over the last three years that I have written this column. And I have never written a story about a campaign until it was over. And there's a reason for that, and that is because our editors hate it. Because if we go on the record with supporting a campaign and then they don't deliver or there's bad, or there's a problem, or it's a fraud, we can't remove that article we wrote. And so they do not like it. They do not want us to write about it. It is kind of a forbidden territory. And also because there's a lot of fraud and a lot of kickbacks that go on in the PR industry. And so quid pro quo kind of things like where I write an article for you and then you are going to write about my clients. Like there's a lot of that that goes on. And so what happens is that they think almost all Kickstarter articles or articles about product launches, startups like that are paid pay to play. And so that's also forbidden at most major publications.

No, it's a really, really good point. PR is good if it's executed properly. And I do have a handful of PR teams that focus on crowdfunding campaigns that I'll introduce my clients to. But the truth is, you want to launch a crowdfunding campaign when you have your own audience that's engaged and ready to buy. If you don't do that today, it's going to be a headache. It's going to be really, really hard.

Well, product launchers, you hear this from me all the time, right? I always say there is no proof in people saying, oh, that's amazing. We love it, it's cool. There's only pro when they plunked down some money on it.

Yep, that's right. And at the end of the day, ultimately, the reason launch boom is the reason the core of what we do is digital marketing is because we can control it. We literally can understand what the data indicates showing us how large a demand is for any product in any category. And only when that demand is big enough, only then do we commit to a full product launch and put larger budgets in. Because the truth is, Tracy, even with your products that you're designing, you should use my test boom program for all of them. Because I can show you the data and be like, hey, this is going to be huge. This is a million dollar campaign. Before you go and put a bunch of time and money and resources into anything, you want to know that you're going to win. So what I've done is we built a predictive model that we can test anything for very, very small amount of money. The full price of that program is $7,500 and 2,000 of that goes into the advertising budgets.

And then so, guys, we're talking about pretty low cost in the scope of things because we normally don't talk price here on product launch hazards. But I'm glad you did because I was gonna ask you anyway because I really want people to have a budget in mind for this because it is a costly thing. So we hear all the time that like, the average budget for running a Kickstarter campaign is 25,000 plus. And so what do you see as being overall is like the ones that are successful, what are they spending?

No, that's exactly right. And so that's why you guys, like, I'm not interested in running a $100,000 Kickstarter campaign anymore. Why it's so hard. It takes a lot of time, a lot of resources, and honestly, it's not that big enough. It's not a large enough volume that's actually going to help that potential product go to market in a way where there's going to be real profit behind it. What's more exciting for us is when we can actually deliver more million dollar campaigns. Why? Because there's huge volume now, with larger volume, with economies of scale, you get better price breaks with your manufacturer. Right. So you're able to make a bigger margin and actually walk away with a bigger profit that you can reinvest back into your business without giving up equity. Right?

Yeah. Because who wants to give up equity that early in the game? It's really hard to make a sustainable business after that, a sustainable brand.

Which is why. Which supports your point where you don't want to write an article about a crowdfunding campaign if it's going to fail, not deliver. Because now that's your credibility that's being tarnished. I get it. I totally get it. Yeah.

Wow. Well, this is just. I mean, this is just so eye opening to me as to where we are with where we are in this world. Yeah, please. Yeah.

I just want to say one last thing. So you guys, for me, prior to crowdfunding, prior to Kickstarter and Indiegogo, every time I'd launch a consumer product, I was the one taking all the financial risk. And to do it properly, to be able to actually sell large enough volume where I would have a chance into getting into big box retail or doing well On Amazon, literally, I would have to put up the dollars. I'd have to put up at least 100,000 or more. And if I was.

Your chance of finding an investor and getting or getting enough credit to be able to do that is hard.

It's really hard. And the scary part was, is if I was wrong, I was the one losing all the money. I was the one upside down underwater. It was scary. Launching products can be scary. And so the reason I built this test boom model is because I would put $7,500 against any idea all day, any day, to have someone come back and tell me who the customers are and what the demand really is, or.

To tell you not to do it. Yeah, because the amount of time lost, like, to me, like, that's nothing.

Tracy, you're right, though. Like, I've had clients where I'm like, guys, the data is not good. Don't do this. And they're like, thank you. Hey, Will, I've got another idea. Let's do it again.

Yeah, exactly. Because, I mean, the amount of dollars you'll spend and in saying, I'm gonna go forward anyway, and you end up tooling for it, and you end up. I mean, the inventory, and then it doesn't move. Like, that's crazy. Now, there is an exception, and that's one of the exceptions I want to talk with you about, because I want to make sure that we're really clear there. You don't. There's a mismatch between Indiegogo, Kickstarter, and women consumers. And so a lot of products for women don't play well in the crowdfunding platform. And so let's just mention that when we talk, like, sometimes that happens.

No, let's just start there. Because, Tracy, you're spot on when you look at the demographics, at least based on the data we're looking at, the majority of the audiences on both Indiegogo and Kickstarter are Primarily males ages 25 to about 45 years of age, average annual median income of 100,000 or more. So that is probably the main reason, Tracy, why female products don't perform nearly as well as some of the other cool tech gadgets and whatnot that are more focused on the male audiences. Right.

And so that this is not a ground to say if you've got a product like this and you've seen. If you've given. See my presentations, if you've gone and watched and you can watch it on the platform, my prosper show presentation, and I talk about the two razors that were side by side on Kickstarter at the same time, or it was a razor and an eyelash curler, actually, I'm sorry, razor and an eyelash curler that launched at the exact same time. And which one succeeded and which one didn't, Even though the eyelash curler was a much better, cooler product with more appeal. So it's not always indicative of whether or not you'll make it in the consumer market because the consumer market is flipped. The consumer market is 86% women.

That's a great point.

We have to really keep that in check for us and remember that.

So. So I just want to say one more thing regarding that point. You're correct on the female audiences. Now, that's not always the case. So all I tell anyone is if you have a product and it may be focused on that type of demographic, the female demographic, I'm still willing to test it. In fact, Tracy, I'm willing to test everything.

Well, because even if you've spent 7,500 bucks to test that out, because you're doing your tests on Instagram, Facebook, where there are a lot of women, you could still get a lot of information back about how to market it, how to sell it, even if you decided not to go the crowdfunding route at the end of the day.

Exactly. But more importantly, I've also taken female products through that program and demand has been overwhelmingly positive. And then I've actually taken it through a crowdfunding. We've done phenomenal. So that's what's cool about my system. It's that it's focused specifically on crowdfunding. And if my test checks out, we go for it. And if my test doesn't check out, we kill it.

I love it. Info based systems based. Guys, you know how I feel about this. I was like, the difference between a successful product isn't a great idea, it's the system that you put in place to execute it that you get it launched with. That the right things in the right order, with the right resources. And will is one of those. So it wouldn't be a product launch hazards interview if I didn't ask you what are some of the biggest hazards, the biggest failures you've had with some of the campaigns and things that you see that go completely wrong. Alright, ready before 2017 when you got.

It successful, the biggest hazard is what made my company the best today in the world. And I mean that. Before the test, I would say, Tracy, I love you, Tracy, I love your product. Give me $50,000 and I'm going to turn it into a half million or more in sales. And we're going to do that through Kickstarter, Indiegogo and our upselling. We use backer kit for upsells where you can do about 30 to 40% increase in sales after the crowdfunding. And we can talk about that next time.

Yep.

Right. And so you'd say, wow, well, that's a lot of money. Where's it going? And I'd say, well, Tracy, 25 is going to go into our hard cost. We're going to do all the work. We're going to do the messaging, the video production, the email marketing. We're gonna manage the campaign, the backer updates, everything. Right. We're your partner. And then you're like, okay, I get that. Where's the other 25? The other 25 goes right into Facebook, right into Instagram to basically build those huge audiences before we go live. This is why we're called launch boom. Right? Because we set a goal that we control. We turn on the campaign, we blow that number out of the water immediately. Now we're the best performing campaign on the platforms. Right? And then we get free organic traffic to the tens of millions of unique visitors on those platforms, which help boost our sale into the hundreds of thousands and potential millions of dollars range. Right. So that worked. In all honesty, that worked throughout 2015, 2016, most of the time. And when I say most of the time, I'd say 8 out of 10 times it would work like that. But there was about 20%, what I would call failure. And what that means is that. So someone would give me 50 grand and would start building videos and all these assets, and then would start micro testing on Facebook and Instagram. And guess what? The demand wasn't there. And when the demand's not there, we do more micro testing and more micro testing. And if we can't find demand, we don't have a choice. We have to launch in order to help recoup those dollars for the client. The problem is, is that we just wasted so much time and to manage that type of expectation. And it's brutal. It's painful, especially when you know your clients going to lose money. Potentially, yeah. In January 2017, it's when we basically redesigned the entire model. This is where we said, you know what, we're going to test everything first. We're going to spend 30 days, we're going to use a fraction of that budget. And then once we have the data that shows us that we can get a 300% or greater return on the ad spend because that's our focus. Then and only then can do we take bigger budgets and we go into a full program launch. And we all spend time because now it's a sure thing. Everyone's gonna make money. So the biggest hazard that we struggled through in 2016 at LaunchBoom has today made our business better than my wildest dreams.

I love that. The problem becomes the solution, right?

The problem forced innovation. It forced us to build systems and to build this strategy of testing first. And in all honesty, you're right. You said it earlier. Like our clients, even if the product doesn't graduate into a full program, they thank us for saving them the time and the headaches and the capital. Right.

Wonderful. Oh, well, I'm so glad and I really hope you're going to fully join us here as an expert and talk about things like the backers kit and all sorts of like, you know, really help define these things so over the time so people can ask you questions on our platform. In the meantime, you will be able to easily find Will because he will have a profile on Product Launch Hazards, as does everyone who has been a guest and a guest expert on our show. And you will be able to connect directly with them and find out all about his company and all about his program. And you'll be able to be one of those 300 that he evaluates next month. So, Will, thanks again for joining us. I'll be back next time with another Product Launch Hazards.

You're great, Tracy. Thank you.

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