Meet Design for Manufacturing Expert Dennis Shaver

Protect your brand, product or invention from the hazards of consumer product launching and go from idea to product to big brand. With guidance from retail product design and development experts Tracy and Tom Hazzard. Get the insider secrets to put the right things in the right order with the right resources so you can out design, outsource and out profit your way to retail success.

Hey, product launchers, I have someone terrific to introduce you to who is going to really help you with figuring out how to get your products made, because I know you're dying to know that. So I have Dennis Shaver from Product on Demand. And Dennis and I have just been connected within the last year. And what I really think is really special about what he does and the contacts that he has is that he does a lot of US stuff. And I know you all are asking me where can I make my things in the US and where can I get manufacturing help and what's designed for manufacturing? I want to know that. But this is your expert. This is the guy I brought in for you. So welcome, Dennis, and we're so glad to have you as a product launch expert.

Wow, what an honor. I mean, I'm so grateful to be here. I love what you do for helping people get their ideas from mind to market. And I'm just honored to be here to share this great information about products in general and how you go about doing it.

Well, good. Tell us how you got started in this product launching business.

Well, I was born and raised on a big dairy farm in Michigan. There's seven boys in my family, all born in nine years. My mom and dad loved each other for sure.

That's right.

What was great about that is on a dairy farm, the implement dealers are not always open all the time. So when a piece of equipment breaks down, you still have 110. Cows are very hungry and they need to eat if you want milk. So we had to find a way to go out in the garage with daddy and all of us boys and find some metal, find some plastic, find some wood, and find a way to make something work, to fix something. It could be a self unloading wagon, it could have been a tractor. Maybe we had to invent something new because at a baby calf that was freezing outside, we had to have some type of a feeder that would warm up.

The feeder necessity, right?

Yeah, it was just fun. And the thing is, is that we always had to be creative. And the other thing I learned about product development in my career is back in the dairy farm, it was always about the cycle of life. If you wanted an outcome, you had to plan to have the outcome. So if you want to plant a field of corn, a field of grain, a field of sorghum, it's important to plan, then plant the seed and then nurture it. Have the right environment and not water your weeds, but pull the weeds and eventually you get to the harvest. Much like business, much like a new product. We've talked about this previously. There's about seven essential steps that you would take to go through to make sure you're following the steps, and they're not difficult. But having something that's like a roadmap, a blueprint, something's methodical that you can understand and then apply throughout the process.

That is one of the reasons why I invited you in here, because you and I share the same philosophy about planning, that you will not get a successful product launch if you don't take the time to plan it. You can't just wing it. No matter how many times people want to say, oh, yeah, I just invented this thing and it went great. It doesn't actually work like that. And I think they're kidding. They're probably completely overstating everything, because it doesn't happen like that, even when you get that flash of genius. And I've gotten it before, but it doesn't work like that in terms of actually making it to market, becoming commercialized, and making money with it. Yes, ideas can come to you, but getting product out at the end doesn't happen without the planning. And you believe in that wholeheartedly. You also believe in developing good business models to go along with it. And that's another reason why you're invited here.

Well, thank you. And I have a little story, if I could share about the DFM is. My first job off the dairy farm was working for General Motors. I was an hourly employee. And they said, what can you do? And I said, I know how to weld, sir. And he says, you got a job. So I was welding trucks, and I love to weld trucks. And I was making money because on the dairy farm, my father would say, son, you got a roof over your head. We're feeding you. You got clothes in your back. I think you're doing pretty good. So I started making money as a welder. And one of the things I learned working on the line as a welder is not all the parts would fit right. And so we would call engineering. The line shut down when the line shut down. On manufacturing, that's a problem that costs thousands of dollars. For the automotive maker, that was working for. They would always say, what can we do to fix this? What do we need to do? And we'd always say, it's engineering. And the engineering said, no, it's you guys in manufacturing. So it's always this going on. And there was never this collaboration that we could sit down and find out what this mechanical part was, whatever it was, and find a way to be able to make it so that it's designed for manufacturability versus using a hammer to try and hammer it in place and then shutting the line down. So I learned a lot, and I learned that there really needs to be effective communications between different lines of responsibility, especially when an inventor works with vendors. Those vendors really, really, really need to know how design fits in with prototyping, how prototyping fits in with manufacturing, how prototyping fits in with packaging, and throughout the entire course. So there's a methodical way of doing this. This is why I appreciate the upbringing, is that it gave me that opportunity to. To see it from a different perspective versus just jumping in the design and saying, I'm a designer.

That is so, so, so true. That is why, over the course of my career, that I started to go farther and farther away from being the designer in the process, because there wasn't enough collaboration. They were keeping you too siloed. And it was restricting to me because I was like, I can't do what I need to do. It's not going to get made, it's not going to happen. And so I started collaborating, reaching out, which eventually ends up with this group which is truly, truly collaborative with all kinds of people from all walks of life, but have the same philosophy that you found here. The issues that we see happen a lot with inventors, and you probably do as well, and I'd love to hear some stories about that, is that when we have someone who's new to it, whatever it might be, they bring in all these disparate vendors and parts and people and things together, and they don't let them all communicate together. Then there's a lot of missteps, a lot of lengthening of your timeline, of scope creep, and all kinds of things that happen because you're learning on the job as the inventor, and the people that you bring in are just saying, oh, you need this and you need that, and they don't know that you might have somebody else doing that. And so then there's duplication and cost and all that happens, Right?

But the thing is, finding a way, as an, I'll call it an inventorpreneur who you want to be an entrepreneur, help an inventorpreneur just understand what's the simplest steps, the least amount of steps that I need to do, including time, cost and other things to get that idea from your mind to the market to hopefully profit. And the more that you can do on the preparation side is key. You can learn so much about what the challenges are in the marketplace. And once you find what the challenge is, then communicate that to your designer so the designer can put those solutions to the challenges in your product. So DFM design for manufacturability is really, really key. And when you get to the prototype stage, then you can start working with say, oh, wait a minute, I need to have a curve here, I need to have an angle there, I need to have a radius there. This is how you find out how to go back to the designer and say, you know, it's not quite working here. Can you make an adjustment here, just a slight modification here so you get as close as possible to what that product is supposed to do to solve the problems of your target market.

One of the things that we do in our business is stay through the first run of any product. We like to stay longer, but most of our clients won't pay for that. But we like to stay through the first run of the product because in that first run there's a quality assurance issue. So you start to see things that happen that won't be long term sustainable in manufacturing, things that they're messing with because the first run's a little slower. It always happens that way. And so we want to make sure that the design's adjusted, but it doesn't happen. That manufacturing takes away the integrity of the design in the process of making it streamlined and smooth for them. We keep our hand in that. We built it right into our fees because we were so concerned and we saw that happening so often. Is that like either manufacturing get involved and it would change the design so that there was an impact problem in the marketplace, or it would have a quality problem long term. And then it wasn't sustainable from a manufacturing standpoint or it wasn't cost effective and the cost would rise.

Exactly. So the engineer needs to be able to collaborate with the manufacturing, whatever that is. Is it injection molding, is it CNC machine, is it some form of a poured metal fabrication process? So whoever you hire as a designer, they need to know design for manufacturability for that specific type of fabrication process. That's how you reduce the time, reduce your cost. And increase your potential for profit in the marketplace.

Now, you said something that I love, the term mind to market. That's what we're here for. We're not here to just come up with great ideas and then leave them on the drawing board. We want to get them to market. So where have you seen some of the biggest missteps, the biggest hazards, the biggest landmines, whatever you want to call it here on this platform. The biggest problem is in really going from that mine to market.

I love the topic here, the hazards, because so many people don't think about the hazards. They think about I got a million dollar idea.

Yeah, we get excited, don't we?

Exactly. It's true. So I'll give you a quick story here. There's one gentleman that came to us with a fantastic invention idea. He said, this is a million dollar idea. He comes into my manufacturing plant. He says, dennis, my patent attorney said, I must see you to help me get my manufacturing costs. I said, well, that's fantastic. We shook his hand. He sits down. Now, normally inventors usually sit in the front edge of my chairs in my office because they're so excited about this new idea. It's worn down. Even though they're new chairs, it's worn down the front of the chair. I kind of help them chill out a little bit. So he brings in this big thicket packet, and it was a brand new patent, must have been an inch and a half thick of paper. Plops it down, and he's so excited. He's just grinning from ear to earth. So I asked him to have a seat and he says, well, I need to know the manufacturing costs. I'm ready to go into manufacturing. So I said, great. So what do I do as a manufacturer? I go right to the illustrations because you can read all the words and that takes forever to read all the words. I'm looking for the details, I look at the renderings, the conceptual drawings of what the patent attorney put in the patent. And have you ever been in a situation where you knew you had some bad news that you're going to share with someone, but you want to get to the good news really fast? That's where I was at. And I was like, oh my gosh, I know this guy. I think he works for the city. He just got divorced. He's just got two young kids. He spent $10,000 on this patent in this moment. And so I said, well, first of all, I love this idea. It's fantastic. I could see a lot of applications for it. Well, Dennis, I mean, can you manufacture? And I said, well, let me share something with you first. Do you know what a patent attorney is hired for? And he says, well, yeah, just give me a patent. And I said, what about a manufacturing firm? I said, manufacturing costs. He said, well, a patent attorney is hired to create words to protect your idea and then support those with conceptual drawings to protect your idea. Secondly is as a manufacturer is hired to design products for manufacturability. He starts slouching back. He said, did I make a mistake? And I said, well, not really a mistake. And I said, thirdly is that you could have protected your idea for as little as $135 with a provisional patent applications directly through the patent office. His eyes started rolling up. And to be able to sit across the room from another man and feel that feeling of he was so excited. He spent all of his money. What he did is that he didn't do research up front. He didn't do his homework up front. He just went to his family and said, what a great idea. And all of his family said, go for a patent. Go for the best patent you can find. Well, several years later, he comes up and he gets a patent. Then he comes to me. So he wasted all that time. The bottom line is we brought him back in and reeled him back in, and it cost him another $4,000, $4,500 to go back to the patent attorney, make sure it' for manufacturability, which changed it a little bit, and then they had to update the patent, so $15,000 patent in several years.

So I have a couple patent attorneys who are experts here on our platform. Dennis and I chose them specifically because they don't advise clients that way, that they advise provisional first and that they understand manufacturing so well because they've been in it for a long time, that they prefer that method because they prefer for us to get involved, the designers and the manufacturers to get involved, because then they know they can actually make a better patent at the end of the day. And it's more likely to be commercialized. So that's the reason I chose them here, because it really is that exact case. That guy, I've met him, he sat in my office. I know exactly what you mean by that. Most of the time, also sit in front of someone and I have the little bit of flip side of that, which is, not only can't we make this, but it's not going to sell if we don't change this. It's not consumer acceptable if you don't change these things. So we have to redesign completely. And that is such a hard thing to hear.

So if he just followed some simple steps and just got the basic protection to give him at least 12 months to figure it out with a prototype, and if it's great, then invest the money and have the leverage to maybe utilize other people's money to fund that more expensive patent. But for now, you don't even know if your target market wants the product.

That's right. Yeah. So that's kind of my flip on it is you should save as much money as you can because it will cost you so much more than manufacturing to market the product later. So you better check that out first, make sure they have something they want to buy.

Right. So the whole thing here is that my passion and why I like to work with inventrepreneurs is I was raised sort of like an underdog. Okay, we're farmers, but we were a very successful farm. Secondly is as I found, so many people come to my office and had fallen on their face, lost their house, lost a lot of money and time and relationships with their significant others and their families because they took the wrong route. And after a while, when you meet people like that, it really hits you here, like, how can I help? How can I serve? So all those years of working in the corporate world, I learned how they would work with products. I thought, there's got to be a better way. Just like you are with hazard design. You're here to be a resource to help others rise above, help them become successful, have a methodical way of following something that's simpler. Because you don't have to be a rock star to know everything to get an idea from mind to market to profit. You just have to know how to access the right resources, identify and align the right resources, and then follow that and create value with that product so you can get out to the market, get them to a point where they say, oh, I like that.

So you and I both have a seven step blueprint. Ours is to prove it, do that market proof first. Right. To prove it, to plan it, to price it, to prototype it, to patent it. After prototyping, which you know is a little late, doesn't mean you don't file that provisional early. Then you go to produce it and then promote it. And so those are our generalized steps. But you have your own. You want to share those?

Well, sure. And the one that I really lean on really hard is that first one. And that's the preparation. In my book, I don't know if you're aware, but I wrote a book called the Entrepreneurial Incubator and it's the number one best seller. I didn't know it'd be a bestseller, but you know, when you're passionate about something and people keep saying write a book, write a book. Well, I did in three weeks, became a best seller. In chapter six, I believe it is, the title of the chapter is called To Patent or Not to Patent. And so many people think that they have to go out and get this expensive patent. Well, you don't have to patent an idea to market it and to profit from it. But if you feel you need to, there's various ways that you can protect it. Most people that come to me and you mentioned that the patents after the prototype and it's true because you got to, you got to try it out to make sure it works first. But how do you know if it's going to work? But it's okay as well to go and apply for a patent and get a patent and sit on it. Some people just sit on their patents, they don't do anything. It's okay to consider patenting it before the prototype or after it. It's just knowing from people with experience how you can reduce the challenges just by following a methodical process. So the first one here of course is the preparation stage. And there's a chapter in my book called competitive intelligence. And that's preparation.

Such an important word. I like that term, competitive intelligence. The consumer market is very competitive and at the end of the day, I hear from inventors all the time you probably do too. I have such a great idea and it's never been done before. And I was like, oh, then you shouldn't do it. They're like, what? And I'm like, no, you didn't do it. Because if it's never been done before, it's going to be very expensive for you to do this if you're really right. But there's always competition for your dollar, even if it's not exactly a one to one competition on your product.

Right? So research is key. It's what I call sweat equity. And you just get online and you do a Google search and find out what are the issues with current products that are similar to your product. That's what I call use them as your prototype, as your free prototype. It's amazing how you can go out, look at other companies that are creating a product and you see what people are writing about it like, oh, there is an opportunity, there's Another solution. And you just take notes, Take notes and take notes. What you do is you make your product that much better. That's what all products are about. Most of the products we work with people and with big businesses are looking at other designs and finding a way to make it better.

And I like that sweat equity. You got to put some time into it. You should also ask others. We have Laura Curtain Hazard. Who? Laura is my sister in law. She is our resident market research expert. So if you don't know if you're using the right terms or the right questions or asking the right things, she's the person to contact on that. That's the key, is that we get in our own head so often when we're in a product category that we forget to figure out what consumers are asking for. So you got to go out there and make sure the terminology you're researching isn't just your own. This happened really recently with a client who was working on a tool belt and they were calling it that. But I typed something else completely different in Amazon and found a whole bunch of competitive products they'd never seen before. I said, I just thought like a shopper, what would I buy from my husband if I needed a tool belt without calling it that? And that's what I typed in and came up with. All of these things. You miss things if you also don't reach out and ask at that point to get input.

Exactly. So true. So the other thing about my seven essential steps, in fact, I'll be as part of my gift at the end of this interview today. I'll just give it free for people that they'd like to see the seven essential steps.

We'll add it right to the resource library. There's a resource library right for our members, Dennis. So we'll put it right in there.

Love it. Love it. Beautiful. So the magic of the seven essential steps that to get to a point where you will find out either if your target market wants it or not, if they don't want it, is there a way to tweak it? It's cost effective and time effective and then go for it. If it's something that's just not working, go back to step one and prepare for the next idea and follow the seven steps. But that last step is to promote to profit or prepare for the next great idea. So so many people get stuck and they just give up and they never invent anything ever in their life again because they felt they got, well, I won't say the word, their idea.

I Know what you mean.

Yeah, exactly. But we deserve it. People are worthy, deserving of success. And it goes back to identifying and aligning the most effective resources that can help you get to a point where they say, I really want it, or, I like this. I like this, Tracy, but could you change this, this, and this? There's free advice. Go back and change it. Come back and. Oh, you love it now. Okay, great. Now that's close to a buy decision. It really is. By using your prototype, nothing more. It's not about. It's not about filling your garage full of product and then hoping somebody will buy it.

Please don't do that. I'm gonna beg you not to do that. Dennis is gonna beg you not to fill your garage with product yet.

Oh, my gosh. This gives me chills. It's like, no, don't do that.

It's just as bad as that big, thick patent book and nothing else. It's just as bad.

Yes. So the other thing is that I also have a free video that this lady won $250,000 on an elevator pitch. 59 seconds. And what she did is she got to the point where she caused that person to have a transformation versus trying to create a transaction with that person. We need to have a story to share with somebody that's so quick, so precise, to the point that they say, tell me more. And when you have that prototype in hand, it reminds someone else of kindergarten. You would go to school and the teacher would say, okay, Dennis, it's your turn. You have to walk up and do what's called show and tell. Now, show and tell. You brought something, and you had to talk about something you're excited about. What did it do? It helped you be better at public speaking, that type of thing. Some of the kids in the audience loved it. Other kids are like, you know, that type of thing. That's the way it is in the marketplace. Don't expect everybody to love it. In my seven Essential Steps, the pitch part of it is where it's like, show and tell. You want to prepare it so that it will cause them to get you immediate feedback versus filling your garage full of product and hoping somebody will sell it.

Oh, so, so, so, so true. Well, we will put this video link straight into the blog post for this interview, and we will also have links to things in Dennis profile. So, Dennis, I want people to understand what Product On Demand does and all of the scope of things. Because you have tons of services. It's really, really broad. So that way people can understand our members Here can understand. When should they jump on an office hours? Are you capable of talking about what they're interested in? So I want you to lay that. Let us know what you do.

When you look at the website, it says invent something underneath it. It says, you think it, we create it, you own it. That really hits it here because of all the people I've met over the years who were stumbling, who were stuck in the muck and finding a way to get them past giving up to rising above and following a simple formula. So when you say I have a lot of things on there, it's something I do all the time. Design, prototype, and then once the prototype is figured out, then manufacture and then order fulfillment. So it's turnkey, product development, full service.

That's what I want everybody to hear, full service. Of all the different aspects you need.

The reason we do all of that in one is because we're responsible when we design your product. We're responsible to make that prototype right. We're responsible to make sure that that design is done right for manufacturing. If you want the manufacturing done here in the States, we have at our facility, we have other support vendors who do pad printing, packaging, things like that to help us with our manufacturing, also overseas as well. But we oversee the design. We also oversee the first articles to make sure the parts are right before you go into production. And then there's standard operating procedures and a quality control program put into place as well. So that's what we do. Design, prototype, manufacturing and fulfillment. So when you're designed, you've got your design, that's great. You can bring it to us. We'll still look at it and see if it is designed for manufacturability. If it's not, we want to make you the hero and make some suggestions.

Now, you also have a lot of capability, and I just want everyone to be really clear on it. You have a lot of engineering capability as well.

Oh yeah, we've done engineering back when they had 2D designs and this was in the 1900s.

I feel ancient like that too.

Yeah, we used the AutoCAD back in the day and used to turn off paper and have a 2D design, but now it's 3D design. So what we do is rather than you spending the money to go into manufacturing and even prototyping, is that you can look at a design and design it for manufacturability. You can test it. You can say, okay, this is a plastic I need so we can introduce a certain type of plastic, test it Finite element analysis, fea. Do some various types of testing for molding to see how it might act in those further processes, in a design process. That's brilliant. I love that.

I love that too. And this is something that I want to really raise the point of is that there are lots of, and Dennis just defined it, FEA analysis type companies that you can send your rendering, your drawing into and they'll give you information back. And I want to say that I have never found that to be successful when you do a send out. When you utilize someone who's going to make it or someone who's design oriented and engineering oriented and understands that there's a lot of results that come back from that that say you should over build this and over make this. And someone who knows how to make things understands where that limits are and say, okay, we do need to beef some up. This is an indicator, but it's not telling us to overbuild this thing and add this much plastic and this much parts. So utilize someone who actually knows who's going to make it to give you an critical analysis of the results of any fea.

Right now, many inventorpreneurs, especially aspiring first time entrepreneur enterprises venturepreneurs, are not sure of the questions to ask. And also I'd like to place on your site as well as there's a chapter called Outsourcing 101 and many of the questions that you would want to ask a vendor to qualify that vendor. So some people say, Dennis, I don't know anything about this so I'll look dumb in front of people. It's like, no, we're going to help you bone up on what needs to be asked here because you're the boss. This is your idea. They are the ones that need to convince you that they're the right ones you need to go to to get the service done. So I'd also like to place those questions on there as well.

Sure, we'll put that right in the resource library. But you know, I think that would be an excellent office hours topic as well. So I made a note here. I think we should add that to your office hours topic. Areas designed for manufacturing. We have all kinds of stuff you could talk about, but that's one I think we should add as well. You're right. It's such a critical point if you get bad results because you don't ask the right questions. You don't even know that you didn't ask the right questions unless you consult someone.

Exactly. And the whole thing that excites me about these seven essential steps in getting a product to market is when I first found out about 3D printing.

You and I, this is why we connected, actually.

The first 3D printing machine came out in 1987 at General Motors, I believe it was. I bought a machine in 1993, an SLA 190 and then a 350. The 350 was over $300,000 back then. I saw the magic of that. Instead of the old way of CNC machining a prototype, I'll call it Grow It. That was magic. To be able to create a design, download it within, I don't know, a couple hours, 15 hours. You've got parts and you can get them in your hands versus CNC machine. It takes forever to hog out the material. So that blew my mind, and I thought, there's so many applications for 3D printing. And now we even have a 3D printer that can grow human body parts.

That's right. So you guys have that in house? We do as well, but we only use FFF here. We outsource our SLA as well.

But there's sla, there's fdm. There's a number of them. We have ceramics, we do plastics.

I didn't know you did ceramics. Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you more.

Yeah. So see, because I believe in that technology, there'll always be a need for it in the future because people always want to make it better.

Wonderful. So we have our website, 3dstartpoint.com, which is a full resource for anyone who wants to really get in the weeds. Now, believe me, you don't have to get in the weeds. Dennis and I and a bunch of other of our team members, Tom Hazard, of course, can help you out with anything you want to know about 3D printing. So you don't have to do that. But there are 550 articles or more on 3D Start Point that are basic, some of them, so they can be 101. So if you didn't know what we said when we said FDM and sla, you can go learn what that is.

There is one called lom Laminated object manufacturing, and that was sort of a paper laser process. But I've had many people come to my office, be all excited about an idea, and all it was is a styrofoam cutout. And then they had some parts stuck on it and glued on and like they went to their kids art box and create something. But it gave me an idea. You don't have to go out and spend all this money to go to some 3D printing company to start with the basic mock up. A mock up is very important. You can buy several things at a hardware store to kind of put something together to get the point across of what you're looking for. The more research you can do in preparation before you see your designer. Very important. So you want to do your homework like we talked about earlier. Get prepared and then go to see them and know the right questions to ask as well, so that they can let you know how they can help you help yourself.

I do want to remind our members here that there is a episode that was already recorded about what the difference is in terminology between a working prototype and a. I'm going to call it a mock up or a prototype. That is for appearance, an appearance, model, prototype, all those defined. Tom Hazard did a great job of defining those so that you just have some working vocabulary and language so that you're sure. Because when we say prototype, that means a whole lot of things. And so you want to know what stage of prototype and what you're talking about. That mock up stage to communicate your idea is a really important early stage.

Right. Here's another thing we talk about. DFM design for manufacturability. Sometimes you'll come across an engineering firm and they do just industrial design, sort of like the conceptual look of what be like a cool Corvette or a cool toothbrush or whatever, a cool dog toy. And they come up with really cool designs. But many times you have to then create a mechanical design of that so that you can then download that information into a machine so it can actually start fabricating that part, be it a 3D printing, CNC, machining, whatever. Whoever you work with that does industrial design, they need to be aware of whatever they're creating. This really cool rendering, it needs to be close to being manufacturable, even though it's not in this conceptual rendering. So the closer you get, the better, because I usually will have people come with these beautiful drawings.

That's why we don't call ourselves an industrial design firm, because we don't want to fall into that. We only do styling thing because it just doesn't work. I mean, that's such a small piece of what we do. And I know that that's the same case for you as well, which is why you're here to help out our members. So, Dennis, before we go, before we wrap up, is there anything else you really want our members to know about what you're going to Talk about in the future, what kind of questions they can ask you. And then of course I'm just going to say right now, go to his profile and connect directly. If you are excited and ready to just talk to him now.

Yes, definitely. And I would say throw me the questions. You deserve it. Remember, a competitive intelligence is important. Find out the answers, ask the questions. You'll learn a lot. And the thing is that I will do whatever I can to help you with that. Seven essential steps so important to follow that it will keep you on track, keep you on a path, it'll keep you going on the true north of getting your idea from your mind to the market to profit. And if that idea isn't something that's working, then at least you can go back and kind of find out why it's not working. If it's not worth it, get on to the next idea. So I would say ask the questions. This is a great way to collaborate with Hazard Design and the rest of the team. Amazing. The questions you can ask. Just ask the questions. So ask me and I'll let you know. However I can support you, I'm here for you.

Well, thank you so much Dennis and Product Launchers. Reach out to Dennis, ask him questions. His upcoming topics will be posted in the office hours area and you can check anything out. His website, his links, all the things that he shared in the resource library. That's all in every single expert's profile, all the things that they shared, all the office hours they've done. So you can go to one place and find out and you can binge on Dennis.

There you go.

Anyway, well, thanks so much Product Launchers. Until next time.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Product Launch Hazards. To get the most out of your membership, visit productlaunchhazards.com to join the Expert Office Hours live and ask us your burning questions. Check out the resource library for document templates and guides and get exclusive articles and shares each day.

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