Meet Flexible Packaging Expert Apurva Batra

Protect your brand, product or invention from the hazards of consumer product launching and go from idea to product to big brand. With guidance from retail product design and development experts, Tracy and Tom Hazard. Get the insider secrets to put the right things in the right order with the right resources so you can out design, outsource, and out profit your way to retail success.

Hey, product launchers, Tracy Hazard here, and I have a brand new expert to introduce you to you. So I'm super excited about that. I have a purva batra from Flexible Pouches, and they're out of Texas, and I can't even wait for you to hear all the stuff that they can do for you. But what is so cool about this and why I'm bringing him on as an expert on the platform is because he fits completely in line, and Flexible Pouches fits completely in line with what we do here, which is that we want to test. So they're one of the few packaging companies that do smaller runs so that you can make sure your product's ready to go. You can make sure this packaging is really doing the right things for you. This is just so critically important, as you all know. It's like you make this giant run and then you find out, oh, that didn't work, that wasn't right, and now you're in trouble. And he understands that and he gets it, and he's developed his services and his products and his company around that. So I am so excited to introduce you to him. And also because we don't have enough packaging experts, if you haven't found out, they're like, it's so hard if you don't know already. But I have no package designer as an expert on our platform yet. I have package designers I refer people to, but they're so busy, they don't want to market themselves because they don't want more clients.

It takes a special kind of nerd, I guess, to be a packaging nerd, but you hit it right on the nail there. And that's sort of the forte. I started this company a few years ago, sort of with the aim to level the playing field, because historically speaking, you find that a lot of the smaller companies are unable to compete when it comes to the big competitors, the big corporations there. And so we wanted to create an outlet where small companies that are either going through a product launch or in their growing phase can come to to get high quality, affordable packaging that's either as good as the big boys or even better.

Right.

And so product packaging is the whole behemoth in and of itself. And I think it's one of the areas where a lot of small companies tend to overlook. Right. Actually during the product launch.

Right? Yeah. It's like, oh, I'll just package it later. Like it's like. And it's not, it's something you have to think about early in the process.

That's right. I think the key aspects of effective product packaging, if small businesses can kind of harness them, they can leverage them in order to create a sustainable brand that ultimately does resonate with consumers. So. And that's, that's the end goal.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about you. So you're based out of Texas? Houston, right? Houston.

Based out of Houston. That's right. And we have been flexible pouches. We've been around for a few years, for about five years now. We serve clients ranging from Fortune companies all the way to small businesses, mom and pops startups, medium businesses. So we've got a pretty good portfolio. I mean, you can probably go to any of the major retailers and find a package that we've manufactured and supplied. And so my personal background actually is a technical background in engineering. I'm a mechanical engineer by background with an emphasis on material science. And so I have sort of that understanding as far as what materials may be required, as far as what the functionality of the package may be and how it applies to each product uniquely. And so we cater quite a bit to the food space, the food industry, but our market span, medical marijuana these days is pretty big. There's a lot of laws around child resistant packaging. We recently did a job for a client that does shoe inserts and so they wanted to package those in flexible bags. And so everything under the sun, I think, can be packaged in flexible bags. Obviously there's a trend in the industry to go flexible. You find soup these days that was almost explicit. And now that's in flexible pouches as well. And so we're here to kind of steer brands in the right direction. And you know, all brands may not necessarily need to go the flexible route. It may not be appropriate. But I think there is a certain common theme in terms of starting on your package design early in order to create a sustainable long term brand. So, you know.

Well, you know, I think you bring up a really, really good point though that there's a lot of considerations around that come early on. How am I going to package something is one of those things in the really early days. Because one of the most important things that we come up with is how much space something takes today. Shelf space Matters how much something's going to weigh, how many I can put in a box and ship it into Amazon. These are a huge consideration. Not understanding how you're going to pack it or how you can pack it efficiently early on in the development process can really cripple you and hurt you later when you come and realize it was bigger than you plan.

I mean, it's a balancing act, right? I mean, there's a balance between functionality, between aesthetics and cost. Right? And so kind of like you said, especially with Amazon, they've got strict rules in terms of if it weighs this much or if it's a millimeter too big, it falls into the next category and so forth. Right? And so people tend to kind of forget about that and just get into this grind of let me perfect my product. And they have this sometimes a false pretense that if my product is absolutely perfect, it'll sell well.

Oh, we debunk that all the time here.

So that's kind of where we come into play. And what we start with is trying to emphasize the importance of your packaging, right? I mean, your packaging is the very first interaction that a consumer has with your product, all the way from the retail shelf or the online search result. And so your packaging, being the voice of your product, it has to do a number of different things. First and foremost, attract a prospective customer. You can have the best product in the world, but I don't care which industry you're in, there are dozens and dozens of competing products that are out there, and consumers are impulsive. If your package fails to adequately attract a consumer or lure it on the store shelf, then it doesn't matter how good the product is, because they're never going to get to it.

This is so true. So, so true. So now let's talk about what you guys do. So you're helping them formulate what package, what's the right package? And there's so many material choices and considerations. Let's talk about that, because I think people don't really realize the quality and lifespan implications of material choices, Right?

Exactly.

No.

And so flexible packaging is basically the term applied to anything constructed out of barrier films, right? So barrier films are engineered films, generally poly, but sometimes metal, sometimes craft paper, and sometimes other materials that are there to.

When you say metal, people would more think of them like your average layperson would call them. Foil packaging.

Well, yes, yes and no, actually. And that's a big nomenclature, big distinction. And most people, even in the food industry, sometimes get hung up on this. There is a difference. The Two most commonly used metal films, if you will. There's a metallized poly film and then there's aluminum foil. And there's a big difference between them. Obviously, metalized poly is a plastic base and then you have a little bit of a spray of aluminum, if you will, onto it, but it is still a polyfilm. At the end of the day, aluminum foil is actually a layer of aluminum foil that we sometimes put into the package into a laminate. And that does wonders for your shelf life depending on the product that you're packaging. And so at the end of the day, these materials are basically individual barrier films that are sandwiched together, laminated. Generally, each one serves a unique purpose. And so we get so many startups and new businesses that come in, they've got the perfect recipe for their new organic cookies, but they have no idea what materials to go for. So, well, we'll kind of advise and say, well, depending on your shelf life requirements, depending on how you are filling these, depending on your operations, you might need a metallized or actually you might actually just want a clear poly based laminate. And so that material section is an integral part of our service to prospective clients and advising them on how to actually go about starting with the material selection process.

Wow. Yeah. And so critically important because this is also a consumer perception issue. So it has a like a quality level perception, like, oh, this is more sealed, it's safer, there's a hole. And it may have nothing to do with it because I've seen some packaging that people go, oh, that looks really safe and totally was not. So you have to really match not just with what the qualities you need, but the quality the market expects.

Well, the quality market expects. And again, you know, we talked about how the package is the first interaction with your product that the consumer has. And also it's sometimes the only differentiator. Right. So store shelf, you know, you see a bag that's leaking, not sealed, something's wrong with it, that automatically is like, well, no, I'm not going with that one. Right. And so there's a lot of intricate details that need to be kind of considered up front. So that's again where we come into play and make sure that everything is packaged properly so that you stand up for the competition.

Wonderful, wonderful. Now you talked about small runs, so how small, how small can you go with the way that you guys work?

So we are one of the only packaging suppliers out there in the flexible space that will print fully custom branded flexible bags in quantities as few as 1,000 units.

Those of you who think 1,000 units is high, you guys have known nothing because that is really low. That's right.

I mean, historically, 10 years ago, it wasn't unheard of for the minimum to be on the order 50,000 units plus. Right. And so that's kind of where the industry's been. And so we have a unique business model where we were able to kind of leverage those minimum runs and mass scale. And so that thousand run, by the way, if it's the same size stand up pouch, for example, we can split that up into 2, 3 SKUs as well. And so it could be as low as 300, 500 SKU. And so that is really.

Oh, so like if you have five different, as you were saying, cookies before, one might be a green bag, a blue bag, a red bag, like that kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. And so one might be your caramel flavor, one might be white chocolate or so forth.

Right now you're making me hungry.

I love it.

I don't think. I can't remember the last time I actually ate a cookie.

That's right.

But yeah, that's really valuable too, so. And really, you couldn't have done this business, I don't know, 15 years ago because digital printing has changed everything. You know, the technology has really changed your business.

Exactly. We leverage the technology as well. And so I will say on flexible film printing technology, there's two primary methods, which is one is the offset printing, which uses the plates and cylinders. And so that's still probably the bulk of what we do in terms of volume. And that's where you have a minimum of 5 to 10,000 per sku or per design. But that's the economical way to go. Obviously it's a higher quality, but what's happened in recent years is some of these digital presses specifically won by HP. It's called the HP Indigo 20,000. They came out about three years ago, and it is the mother of all digital printing presses, if you will. Obviously, it's not cheap, but it allows us to do those 1,000 minimum runs and still be on par with Hershey's and some of the big brands that are out there. Because 10 years ago we didn't have the technology and now we do. And our turnaround times for that are actually pretty quick as well. We can turn those around in a matter of about a week, week and a half, actually. And so again, it's the fastest lead time in the industry. It's the lowest minimum in the industry. And so as long as Brand owners, specifically smaller new product launch companies can kind of focus on their packaging. We can kind of help them get to where they need to go.

So now what about like at the end of the day it all comes down to of course, how you seal your package too. So you're creating the package but you're not filling them with items?

We don't fill them, no. And most clients of ours, I mean they, depending on how big or small they are, they may be contracting out the actual filling operation to a co packer, a contract package or a contract manufacturer. And so those are the companies that actually will create. If you're doing protein powder, for example, they'll manufacture protein powder in a certified facility and they'll have a filling line where they can actually fill your pouches. We do work with those contract manufacturers in order to make sure that the package requirements are adequate. And so for example, some of them needed to be sealed a certain way. Some of them need certain sides to be open depending on the orientation of their fill process. So we can work with those guys and again, alleviate.

So see, collaboration guys, this is the key here, right? Like this is why I always try to find you experts who not only are really experts and have great skill set and deep experience in what they're doing and what they're talking about. As you can see by some of you might have glazed over with the technicalness because I know some of you are just like top level visionaries and I love that about all of you guys listening out there. But we need somebody with the technical on our team. Right? Like that's our premise.

At the end of the day, you know, we don't want if you're making organic cookies, protein powder crackers or shoe soles, whatever it is. Yeah, you're the expert in your field. And so our job is to kind of take away the headaches associated with the technical aspects of product packaging design, work with your co packer, your filling facility, or work with you, depending on how you are actually filling the product and make sure we deliver something that works right, that's functionally adequate, fit for purpose and sells well on the store shelves.

So talking about things that we see a big trend in resealable packaging. So do you have a part of your line where you insert the resealable zip?

That's right. If you notice across a number of product categories. And again, this might be a little bit skewed towards the food CPG brands, but more and more products are in resealable bags. And you and I have all Been there. We buy a big chips bag and then forget to seal it or something and they go stale the next week. And so there was a study that was published last year actually and it said 75% or more of customers are more likely to purchase a product, a food product, if it is resealable, especially if it's not a single serve. And so that's one of the reasons why so many brands are going out there with the resealability. And so 90% of everything we sell has a resealable zip line.

Just because that's, it's shocking. But I also see a big trend in smaller size packaging, portability, single packs. Like there's a lot of this going on. And I think a lot of you guys out there who are producing products are underestimating the value of having both things, both options for your clients. Because there's a lot of we all travel and we all need to take stuff with us.

I mean, I can't tell you of almost all of our clients that are at least doing the roto runs. Everybody who's actually made it established their brand. They've got so many different SKUs, but then they've got those same SKUs in the single serve size. Right. So that might be a different type of package. It might be a flat three side seal bag, no zipper needed, just a tear notch or something. But having that visibility, if you will, gives your brand that boost that it needs. Because if you can have your consumers travel with your bags or travel with your product as well as buy it for their house, that's the way to go at the end of the day, right?

Absolutely. And I'm seeing trends happening like that. And I think there was a couple of trends happening like that in the supplement industry. And it started, and I think it might have been it before its time, but I'm seeing it come back again in various areas. And that's because all of us are doing our regimens and programs and we're all still staying active and we need to take stuff with us. And throwing them in little baggies on our own is a little under serving your customer.

That's right. And again, you've got to look at your competition. Right? I mean, failure to acknowledge competition is one of the primary reasons small businesses tend to sort of overlook that packaging. They forget a, that all the competitors are packaging with products in your category, maybe in single serve as well as large size, as well as the normal resealable size. And so one of the things we say is going out and assessing your Competitors, packaging can give you insight into how to design even your product. Right. So they're all interconnected in some sense. But packaging is sort of that common theme that binds everything together.

We're also seeing kind of a trend in what I'm going to call frustration free packaging. It was one of those days, you buy the giant pack at Costco or something. I bought the giant pack of razor blades at Costco. Razors for women and the whole thing. I jumped in the shower, forgot that I didn't have a razor in there, got back out. I'm wet. I'm trying to open this package. I don't have scissors in my bathroom. I cannot. I'm like five minutes later still trying to get this package apart. When I finally get it apart, like razors explode all over the bathroom. Right. And it just makes you go, like, why did I do this?

Right.

Why did I bother?

Well, and that's where a lot of businesses even forget that even after making the sale, their job isn't necessarily done right. Because it's about the customer experience and failure to acknowledge that customer experience, which starts at the store shelf, but the unboxing, unwrapping experience. Right. If product where you get out there, you're spending five minutes plus opening a package that you thought should be doable without any effort. It doesn't matter how good the product is. That kind of sets the tone for how the consumers will interact with your brand and maybe even consider other products within your lineup. And so thinking about the customer experience is sort of the essence of how you go about designing product packaging.

Right.

Thinking about the inboxing experience, thinking about the functionality of the product during the.

Lifetime in our flexible pouch world.

Exactly, Precisely. Right. But again, it applies to every type of package as well. Right. I mean, it could be things that are not pouches as well.

Yeah.

If the unboxing experience is negative, then that does have a job. Well.

And I also just want you to think, like, in this case with Costco, we're in a world today where why is that necessary? And that's something that I think you all need to think about is when you're talking about it, is it necessary for it to be this difficult? Is it necessary for it to do this? Now, if it was a piece of glass, okay. And it's going to break in transport if I don't package it properly, if I don't have everything just perfect in it, that makes more sense to me as a consumer. I understand. I wanted that mirror to get to me safely. Those make Complete sense to me. But when you're talking about something, it made me feel like they put theft, somebody tampering. I mean who's going to mess with the whole package of it? It doesn't make any sense over my well being as their customer, as their member. Thinking about that's the thought process you want to go through as a purpose of pointing out about your unboxing or unpackaging experience. Making that. What is the perception that's going to come up in their mind as they're opening? This is a quality product or this is ridiculous, that's what goes into their mind. That's not good.

That's not good. Again, the customer experience has to be the underlying theme in terms of your product design as well as the package design. Any aspect of negative interaction with the customer, that's going to change the tone. Basically.

That's right. So let's talk about the fun part.

That's right.

Like the pretty part of it, like making the package all pretty. So do you have a team that can work with people or do they need to come pre done design?

So most of our customers, they do have their designs kind of ready to go. But we have an in house graphics department that will help you bounce out ideas. If you're not sure where you are, you may just have a logo. For example, we advise customers not to go online and buy a $10 logo.

Because please guys, my very first article on ink. Million dollar Companies don't buy $5 logos.

That's just sort of setting yourself up for failure. Right, right. Our graphics team can kind of help bounce around ideas and if you've got something in the work and say, hey, what do you think? We can kind of help polish that up a little bit.

And I think that sometimes happens is like you do need somebody who, because you can have a mismatch. So I've seen this really done really well where you have like some kind of craft product. Like maybe it's a beautiful handcrafted soap. Like we have this wonderful woman who makes this amazing soap that Tom is addicted to. She makes it out of her. I mean she makes it by the river in Michigan. It's amazing. It smells amazing, it's beautiful. But finding the right kind of packaging for it was so, so, so, so difficult because it wasn't just about making sure that you protected it, which you needed to do, but it was finding something that wouldn't give it a perception that it was mass produced. So you got a balance between the two. So if you've got a Craft product, or if you've got something that has such specialty needs, craft beers, you got to have. You start thinking about these things as they go through your mind. And of course, you're hopefully not going to put that in a flexible pouch unless you're taking it to a sports game. But you never know.

Again, at the end of the day, it's a balancing act. When you're going into your package design, the package design considerations, you have to think about functionality. You've got to think about aesthetics and graphics and logo matter. There's another study I read that just improving color selection can have a dramatic, statistically significant effect on how consumers react when they see it. Right. The emotions that a certain color may elicit.

Now you're talking. My team, exactly where I live. So I've been choosing colors for 26 years for major corporations, big brands, and I can tell you that it's a science. We spend a lot of time deciding what the colors are going to be for next season and what's going to appeal and why you choose those colors. It's not just psychology, though. It has to do with your brand psychology. If you're not leaving the right impression, it's highly likely it's a color problem more than it is anything else that you've chosen to do.

That's right.

Because of the way that we buy things nowadays, because we're buying on our phones and we're scrolling and we go, oh, pick that. Color is the one thing we see. We don't see texture yet. It used to be texture. If you pick something up and it felt great, you would choose it right. Even if the color wasn't right. But we don't buy that way anymore. So color is the most important choice you can make. And if you're making a wrong choice, if you're not educated in it, if you're choosing what you like, that's a mistake. You have to choose what you believe. Exactly.

It goes back to the same thing again and again and again. You have to think, what does the market expect and what does the customer expect? Right. And how does that relate to the product that you're selling? Right.

And is that leaving the brand impression and the brand perception that I want it to leave? And you have to check that picking.

Your favorite color is not the way to go. That's not the answer to it.

And so, no, but that's where a lot of people start because they don't know what else to do. So, guys, I'm here for you. You guys, this is where you send messages, we do a quick consult and we pick a better color. Right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

This is not a hard, hard thing to do. This is something that is so critically.

Important and it goes in line with the overarching question, are the graphics, overall aesthetics of your package? This includes your logo, your text, your font, your colors, everything though the whole package. Is it in line with your target audience? Right. Because every product has a unique target audience. Every product. No product generally applies across the board. And so you've got to kind of balance that a little bit and make sure that not only is your color selection appropriate, but overall, the placement, the sizing. Because a lot of those have subconscious effects on our human psychology and how we tend to pick out a product. And like you said, these days, it's just on a phone.

Right. Well, we need to make a connection, guys, between all of you, between apurva, between Lar Hazard, our resident market research expert field agent, who we talked to, and the episode just went live a week ago, between field agent, which can help you really dial in and find the exact right people, find people who are really there. These aren't people who signed in to do market research and they've signed in and they just are getting paid for just doing stuff on their app and sitting on their couch. They make you geo locate you. They make sure you show that, hey, I got kids here. So I did open this package, they'll show it in use. So they have a much stricter requirement. So you really get a great targeted audience. And then Laura structures questions so, like, you can't ask someone, do you like this packaging? You can't say that. You have to ask the question properly to get at what's the problem with it.

Exactly. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so again, that's where we can kind of come in. The markets that we work with include food, beverage, pet food, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, again, you name it. But all these principles are kind of underlying and they apply across the board. Right. It doesn't matter which packaging. And so, yes, they want to make sure that you don't have a $5 logo. Like Tracy said, like Trisha wrote about, you want to make sure that the color selection is accurate. You want to make sure the product packaging is functional. At the end of the day, those are the three ingredients. Really?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I am so excited having you on the platform. You're seeing lots of trends and keeping up on all of that, you're going to be able to keep us apprised of that here on the platform. Aren't you? What are you going to share with us over the next few months?

I mean, when you look at it, I will say one of the things that people are surprised to note is that packaging trends in general start overseas and make their way westward. And so Europe and Asia, I'm not.

Surprised, but most people are.

A lot of people are surprised to hear that. And so that's where things start. And so we see, for example, in the beverage space, right. We're now doing like for example, wine in flexible packaging or box style bags.

Right.

Or bag in a box. And there's so many different concepts and cool variations that slowly make their way to market. And again, a lot of times we're tested and tried overseas. We're happy to share with you trends and things that we observe and that we're seeing because we're sort of at the forefront of that and help give your viewers an idea of sort of what the options they may actually have when it comes down to picking.

Wonderful. And remember, he's going to be here to ask questions. So when you got questions, it's like, am I in an industry that is going to matter? Like, is this product going to matter? He's here to ask those questions. So it wouldn't be product launch hazards if we didn't talk about the stuff that goes wrong. And that's really why you're here, that's why all the experts are here. Because we've been there, done that again and again and we watched the mistakes, we've made them, we experienced them firsthand, we had pain from them. So I'd love to know if you've got a story or two about some of the things that really went wrong because of wrong package choices from some of your clients or some of the people you picked the pieces up for.

Yeah, there's actually a number of examples that how one of our premise for growing really. And so we've had so many customers that have sort of bought generic off the shelf packaging. In the flexible world, that means going online and buying a case of unprinted bags, which we manufacture those as well. But unlike a lot of resellers, we actually manufacture it ourselves. We have sort of a quality control check. We have appropriate materials and make sure it's sort of fit for purpose there. But a lot of customers will do that and they'll go on a road show with a new product and not really think about what materials are there, what they need and then they come back and say, oh crap, my product leaked during a presentation or something. Right. And so that's when they come to us and say, well, what went wrong? It's like, well, you went with a material thickness that was so small that what do you expect? Right. And so countless stories where we kind of come in and say, all right, well, this is what you were doing that could use a little bit of help here. And we will now go back to the drawing board, custom design, custom engineer it so that you do have that functionality aspect. And at the same time, advise them on. All right, now let's make sure that we've got the whole custom branding everything ready to go.

You mentioned me when we talked first time about salt. And people don't realize that some products you put inside a packaging actually corrodes your materials. It can deteriorate the package from the inside out.

It can. And salt's a good example of where salt is very susceptible to moisture. It clumps up. When you have salt in the presence of water. You might go off the shelf and buy a standard polyester bag that you want to package your salt in. But you realize that polyester is great at oxygen barrier, but not so great at moisture barrier. Well, most food products do have higher sensitivity to oxygen, but salt now has that moisture barrier. So we would put a polypropylene layer in there to kind of make sure that you have that improve moisture barrier characteristics. And those are the small, subtle things that brand owners may not always be aware of.

This just happened to me recently. I bought garlic supplement. A garlic supplement. And they're like, in just a bottle, like your typical supplement bottle. And I think they thought, oh, that'll be just fine. But it's not, because it still gets hot on the shelves and it still warms up the little plastic coatings on there. So they're all clumped together. And I seriously can't get my finger in and get it small enough to pull them all out. And if you start to pull on them with tweezers or chopsticks or anything, they pop apart and they bust and you can't use them. It's a huge problem. That would have been the perfect product to package completely differently than other supplements.

Exactly. You're right.

And make them so that they don't have that problem where no light can get to them. Heat resistant.

We talked about the metalized layer before. And so certain products, protein powder is one of them, and garlic supplement is another one where they're very sensitive to UV ingress light. Right. And so that's where we would say, okay, now you're not going to go with a metallized film. You're going to go with an actual aluminum foil layer in between because that effectively blocks out 100% of all incident UV or light into the bag. And so that's kind of insight that we might have in guiding clients in terms of how do you select the material, Right. And so small things like that you can have, you can do absolutely everything perfect all the way from product design, engineering, prototyping and then delivery. And then you mess up on one thing there and the customer experience is ruined. And that's where you have to go back to the drawing board.

Right? Well and for most people, this is why I brought him here to you guys. Product launches. This is why Apurva and flexible pouches is on our platform here is that this is the thing. We don't have a lot of Runway when we're a small business. Right. When we're a brand new startup brand, we do not get to make mistakes. Big companies make mistakes all the time.

But they have, they can recover from it.

They can recover. We cannot, we spend too much money and now our business is done. And so that's really why you cannot make these small rookie errors. You need an expert, you need help and you need to get them early.

Exactly. And again, our focus has always been on the small companies, on the startups, on the new product launch, on the companies with a limited budget and trying to stretch their dollar to make sure that they get the most biggest bang for their buck, really, at the end of the day.

Well, I'm so excited to have you on my personal team. In fact, I was just making a couple little notes over here going, oh, we could do this package, we could do this product for this client. And I actually just came up with a brainstorm for a client who's looking for a whole new product line. So we're going to be playing together some more here. I'm super excited about that, guys. As you know, all the experts are on their expert profiles on the productlaunchhazards.com website. You'll be able to find a purva there. You'll be able to find all of the things. He's given us a great slideshow about his company and everything. So that will be posted there as well. I'll also put it in the documents area. So guys, if you go to one of the two areas, you're going to find it. He's going to be back next month and do his first Q and A and we're going to live stream it. Super excited to be live streaming all our experts so you can be asking questions as well. So anyway, thanks so much Product Launchers for joining us today. Thank you apurva for becoming one of our members and one of our experts. And everybody, please stay tuned for next time.

Thanks so much Chrissy. Can't wait. Take care.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Product Launch Hazards. To get the most out of your membership, visit productlaunchhazards.com to join the Expert Office Hours Live and ask us your burning questions. Check out the resource library for document templates and guides and get exclusive articles and shares each day. Don't forget, you can always book a private consult with any expert so you can outdes, design, outsource and outprofit your way to product launch success.