Optimizing Podcast Metrics: A Guide To Analyzing And Boosting Podcast Downloads

Want your podcast and videocast to be seen, heard, found and rewarded in this noisy digital world, you are not alone. Join the nonprofit community at Podcasters United and podcast industry experts Tom Hazard and Tracy Hazard as they debunk all that outdated and bad advice you've been getting from the podcast gurus and find out what actually works. Today, get ready to finish feed your brand with smart cut tactics proven to cast your original voice to the world.

Hey everyone, welcome to Feed you'd brand. I'm Tracy Hazzard and along with my co host and the CTO of potatoes, which is why I brought him on here because we're going to talk tech today. Tom Hazard. And Tom, you are an expert in our analytics and in podcast analytics in general. And that's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about stats, but I want to talk about stats. Not in the boring drone on about stats, but I want people to understand how the metrics can help them make some decision that it can boost their show so they can use the analytics to make some choices on guests topics, other things that they can do that can help boost their downloads and boost their listeners eventually.

Yes, that's right, Tracy. Well, thank you. Yeah. This is not an episode where we're going to dissect every bit of analytics and help you understand them or give you our opinion on them. We've talked about those things in past episodes, our opinion on a lot of things about downloads, about podcast stats. And there is a lot left to be desired, quite honestly, with podcast stats. I wish it wasn't that way. I didn't invent the ecosystem. I have to deal with what the ecosystem makes available to us. And it's only so much data, but there's still a lot of very useful data there, a lot of ways to use it to your advantage, to be able to understand where your podcast is today, how you might want to pivot or course correct to get where you want to go. Now, having said that, I do think when we look at analytics, we want to look at overall trends generally. Are things increasing and going north, getting better? Are you getting more and more or less and less or have you plateaued? I think in one sense that is very important to understand.

But I also want to step in here, Tom, and say there's a little bit of difference if you're under 25 episodes than if you're over 25 episodes. Okay. It can be a really slow burn under 25 episodes. And that is not your fault. It is the podcast ecosystem in and of itself's fault because so many people fail to get past 10 episodes that the listeners get burned quickly. And so they're hesitant to listen to subscribe to a show that they don't know the host of, that they don't know what it's going to be about. They're hesitant to give it the benefit of the doubt and start listening to it until it hits over 25 episodes. They know that they could be wasting their time.

I agree with that statement, Tracy. That is very true. I do think you have to be very cognizant of and have a different perspective when you have a new show versus you have a more mature show. Right. However, I do want to share all of you listening to this episode, whether it's live here, as we're recording this live to our community, or it's a few weeks later in actual the podcast. We have something we're going to share with you a little later in this episode about some incredible new value that we're offering to promote every podcaster show that's hosted on Potatoes. At a certain level of hosting that there are ways that you're going to get a lot more value and get more exposure to more podcast listeners, not just the ones that are already subscribed to your show. So hang on for that later in the episode and this discussion of metrics and podcast metrics is going to maybe help set the table for that and why this new program is going to be so valuable.

Here's the thing that I want to say to everyone, that when you look at the metrics and it doesn't matter whether you're looking at them at the Potitize website, you're looking at any hosting platform's website. Downloads and listeners are not correlated. Okay? A download is very, very different than the number of listeners. There is no place for you to really understand the number of true subscribers that you have anywhere. But we do have some new stats from Spotify that they call followers, but we do also see some, I'm going to call it funky math going on at Spotify. So let's like take a look at what that means. So followers and listeners should be correlated, but we have a lot of keep in mind, you do this, you subscribe to a show, but then you don't listen to the show. How often do you do that? Do you put a show from your Netflix into your favorites list, but you haven't watched it yet? Right? This happens all the time. So subscribers are not listeners either. And I want you to be really clear about that.

So this is the best thing that we're going to illustrate today about podcast metrics, and we're going to show a contrast here between what Spotify reports and how they report it and everybody else. And everybody, everybody. I mean, literally every other podcast listening app that is not Spotify works differently than Spotify. All the terms don't mean the same thing everywhere. So let's start with the overall podcast ecosystem. Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, TuneIn, iHeartra, you know, all. All the other apps that you go and submit your RSS feed to, not Spotify, okay? They work the traditional way. The podcast ecosystem was originally set up to work. You never know who your subscribers are unless they reach out to you and identify themselves and say, oh, yeah, I'm subscribed to you, but no app will share with you how many subscribers you have. They regard that as their proprietary information. That's their user. They downloaded their app, and there are privacy concerns and other reasons why they don't share that. But mostly they don't share it because they don't want anyone to know how many they have as a company. And so they don't share with us. The podcaster. Now, I recently had a customer who's been hosted on Palletties for a couple of years, but uses another producer. And they happen to know me and Tracy. And this person says, hey, I'm trying to find out how many subscribers I have, and I'm looking in your metrics, and it's not telling me. And I know you and Tracy to be, you know, excellent people and have a great platform. So you must know how many that I have. Can't you please share that with me? And I had to educate this person and tell them, well, thanks, I appreciate the compliment. We do know what we're doing. Unfortunately, what you're looking for is not available. And it's not just us. It's just not available in the ecosystem. So you don't know how many you have. Now, you. The way the regular system works, you publish an episode, it goes into your RSS feed. Now, anybody subscribed to Apple Podcasts and all those other apps will automatically get those episodes downloaded to their listening device or, you know, their account, even on multiple devices. If you have an iPad and you're subscribed there on an iPhone and subscribe there, and even an Apple Watch and. OR A. Your MacBook laptop with Apple Podcasts on it, it'll download it to all of them. But does that mean anybody listen to it? No, it doesn't Now, Apple does have playthrough statistics. They're one of the only platforms that isn't working on bringing that into our platform, which exciting, but most platforms don't have that information. So all you know is how many downloads you've had. And certainly from all the other apps, it's. They don't track playthrough, so all you know is how many downloads. You don't know how many people listened. And that's the reality of it. The way you can estimate how many subscribers you might have is usually in the first 12ish hours. Certainly the first day you after you publish an episode, you can look at that download number and that's a estimate reasonably of how many. Probably a little overestimate, but an estimate of how many subscribers you may have in the whole ecosystem. But it's still an educated guess, not a certainty. So I know that's probably unsettling to a lot of you podcasters, So I don't know how many people have listened. Unfortunately, that's true. So let's see in terms of downloads. But it is a trend, though, an indicator. Now, keep in mind, probably about 40% of all the downloads that are recorded in your analytics are actually streamed. And when they're streamed, it means somebody probably isn't subscribed yet and they've pushed play and it streams to the device. It is still a download, just in parts, as they're listening. About 60% of roughly all podcasts are still downloaded.

So by that, Tom, I just wanted to find that. So it means that like I put it on my phone and it downloaded all the way to my device. Right. And so I probably can listen to.

It night or early morning. Before you even woke up.

Exactly. It's an automatic thing. I have the settings set in my app to do that on my favorite shows that I've subscribed to. It doesn't happen if I didn't subscribe to you. So keep that in mind. That it's like those downloads that are downloading doesn't mean I listened to it. It downloaded to my device and I have not yet listened to it. And that is really important for you to know that sometimes that happens on multiple devices. So that's one of the reasons why those download numbers might be overstated. I might download it to my tablet and my phone.

Yeah, but on potatoes, anyway, if those downloads come, if all those devices are connected to the same WI fi, we detect that they're coming from the same IP address and we don't double them up or Triple them up. Right. So there is some things you can do to not inflate the numbers.

Right. But there are podcast hosts that count all of them unscrupulously, and then there are other hosts that are forced to adjust their numbers by a specific percentage to compensate for that. And that's what IAB requires for what.

They think are errant listens, which is also inaccurate because, for example, let's take our household. We've got at least three people with different devices listening to podcasts. You and I listen to some of the same podcasts. P address is the same. So we're probably underreported in this household. Right. For how many years?

Well, that would assume we probably had the same listening app, which luckily we don't actually.

That's right. You and I don't. I listen on Apple podcasts and you listen on Google podcasts, don't you? So then that's actually more accurate with us. But I think a lot of people.

But if our daughter, who has an iPhone, would download through Apple podcasts the same podcast, then it would detect it and it would downgrade it to only one download instead of two, even though there was likely two people. So you can see where the numbers start to get messy in terms of adjustments. Now, we've done the best that we could with saying it's highly likely for people to be subscribed to the same. One is a less likely situation than it is for it to be multiple devices for the same person.

Right. Well, now, so let's talk about, though, a couple of indicators that are helpful. And I can tell you from looking at all the shows on our platform and also all the analytics in Apple, most shows on our platform, Apple is at least half of their plays, and some of them well over 90%, some as high as 95% plays are coming, coming from Apple. I see that as a very good thing because Apple's a little more transparent about playthrough and some of these things. So when you have access to your show on the back end of Apple, you can see, oh, on average, listeners are listening overall to 92% playthrough of all my episodes. That they give you a percentage on all episodes or the whole show, and then you can look at per episode if you want to. Now you have to log into Apple to look at it, which is unfortunate, and that's obviously something we're working on. But you get a good indication. If most of your plays are from Apple and most people are listening to the vast majority of an episode, then your Download numbers are much more believable that those represent actual plays. Okay, so that's an indicator.

Right. And when you think about this, it's like, I don't think it's unlikely that you can't extrapolate from that. If I've got at least 50% of my downloads are happening over on Apple, and I've got a 90% playthrough rate, I think I can extrapolate that that should be fairly accurate across the rest of the apps and the other things that are out there.

Though if I have 10,000 downloads a month, I probably have about 9,000 of them are real. Listen is one way you could extrapolate that information, right?

Because I would say it's not a download if they didn't listen. Like, I don't want to consider it that from my standpoint, because if they didn't listen, they didn't consume the content. So you're looking at that as saying 9,000 listens, that's pretty darn good. Divide that by the number of episodes that you do, and that should be about the rate of your listens, average listens per episode.

Right. And I'm not really worried about the 10% that hasn't listened yet, because you know what? Like, probably most podcast listeners like me, I'm going to binge a whole bunch of them when I'm driving to Colorado for two days. Right. And at times in my life. Right. Ones I haven't listened to. So just because someone may not have listened to it this month doesn't mean it's not downloaded to their device and they won't listen to it at some later time. That's the wonderful thing about podcast downloads is you're on an airplane, you're not paying for the WI fi to stream. You can listen to it offline while you're flying. So I do think it probably gets listened to eventually. So anyway, I don't worry about it. I don't qualify my downloads. And certainly when advertisers are paying to advertise on your podcast, you're getting paid on the actual downloads. No one knows who's really listened or not. And that's sort of the way the industry is. And they compensate for that in the rate that they pay in reality. Right? So that's okay. All right, so now we talked about the podcast ecosystem large and downloads and how that works. Right? So you don't actually know how many subscribers you have, and the download numbers may be somewhat inflated from how many people have actually listened at any given time. That's the hard truth. Now let's talk about Spotify and I'm going to flip this on you. So we got a license with Spotify and we've integrated their analytics into our platform. There are lots of metrics. There's two key ones we put into there. How many Spotify streams that you get. Because remember, Spotify doesn't download anything. You've got to be online with a connection. You can follow a show, which means, hey, I'm following it. That's the similar to subscribing can follow a show. So I get notified of every new episode. But it doesn't download your device because Spotify wants to stream you ads to it. So when you click to play, it's going to stream it to your phone at that time so it's not downloading ahead of time. So it can stream ads at the beginning or pause in the middle if it's a very long show and stream you some more ads. So you can't do that when you download things. Now I'm going to burst everybody's bubble and this is industry wide here. They report streams and they don't report playthrough. So I have a show that I was just looking at before recording this and about 7% of the total downloads of the episode. We still call them downloads, but on Spotify their streams are coming from Spotify, about 7%. However, Spotify calls it a stream. If someone has listened to 60 seconds of your episode and anything north of it is the same whether they listen to 60 seconds or 60 minutes and 59 seconds, it's the same in their numbers. They don't give you a different number of people that listened to a longer period of time or any percentage of the episode. Why Spotify only cares if you listen to the first 60 seconds because they run most of their ads right at the beginning.

Right? This is an ad play for them and that's all they care is to report that the ads were played. Do not care about your show. Your show is a vehicle for advertising. So that's what this reporting number is. So this is why they don't give you the playthrough, because they don't want you to know that it never really got played.

Now I hear a lot of new podcasts saying, oh, I absolutely want to be on Spotify. I need to be on Spotify. I prefer Spotify. Great, you'll be on Spotify when you launch podcast on Poditize, we put you on Spotify for you. Great. Because they're really good at Marketing themselves as a big time player in podcasting. They think Spotify is going to be where most of their plays come from. And I can tell you from experience, it's usually a single digit percentage of their total plays or downloads are coming from Spotify, not a larger number, at least in our observation. Of all the shows that we support.

These are non Spotify sponsored shows. There's a very big difference. If Spotify is paying for the show and sponsors them because they're promoting them, those are very different. And those people are typically never syndicated anywhere but Spotify.

Right. They'd be exclusive to Spotify. That's an entirely different thing. Most independent podcasters, which are who we support, are not going to have that kind of an arrangement.

Yeah.

So the streams, it's almost the opposite. They're giving you, hey, you got all these streams, but you don't know how many of them people listen to for more than 60 seconds. That's unfortunate. Spotify does not give any playthrough information now. So that's sort of disappointing and disheartening with some of the Spotify info that you get. Now having said that, Spotify does provide the followers. Like I said, how many followers, meaning in their world, how many subscribers? I go into Spotify and I follow you. Great. But does that mean I've listened to every episode? So the key difference is no, it doesn't. In fact, it doesn't get downloaded to your device. So just because you follow a show and you may get a notification, here's a new episode of this show. On the bright side, it doesn't get downloaded to your device and give you a false indicator that it's been listened to. Right. So that's the good thing. The bad thing is the follower count is in the entire history of the show and you can have somebody that followed it two years ago and isn't really ever listening to or paying attention to it. So I'll give you an example. Have a show on our platform for a period of Time had 27,000 total downloads and or streams. You know, including Spotify, 7% from Spotify, that comes down to about 1800, 1900 of those plays came from Spotify. When I look at the Spotify followers, The show has 8,600 Spotify followers in its entire six year history. Obviously a lot of those 8,600 followers are not listening to every episode. Otherwise the Spotify percentage of plays over that time would be much, much higher. It'd probably be about 3, 4 times the number of plays would be Spotify if all of those followers were still listening to that show. So I know this is going to be providing more information to our customers, providing the Spotify followers numbers and their stream numbers and it's useful information because again, they're indicators. We want to see overall growth over time. But you have to take them all with a grain of salt. They're general indicators and not necessarily a hard and fast number. That always means the same thing.

Right. And which is where I want to point this and where I want to take this now, Tom, because now that we've sort of got an understanding of how it works out there, we're really looking at how are we going to optimize those podcast metrics and understand those podcast metrics so that we can analyze and figure out what to do to boost our downloads, what to do to boost our real followers, our real listeners. What can we do about that? And that's really where understanding how this really works and that a lot of these numbers are not one to one correlated with a listener is critically important for you to understand that what's going to happen here? So while I agree with Tom that we want to see that overall trend going up, it does go up and down and up and down over time. Because you get like dips in between listeners and between episodes. Yeah, exactly. So you're getting those dips of what's happening.

Well, you want to look at wider periods of time, weeks at a time, months at a time, or at least a month at a time. And not you look at this daily, you're going to blow your brains out.

Honestly, we always joke that this is like you don't get on the scale every day because it's actually demoralizing and it doesn't work right. You don't want to do that. You want to see that you gain followers over a month. You know, you gain weight, you gain followers over a month, you gained listeners downloads over a month. You want to look at it from a larger period of time. Now then, you do want to go a little micro when you see a growth that's higher than it's been, understand why. And that's when we can dial into the per episode basis and take a look at your per episode numbers and see where the spikes are going on. So what I do is I look at it and say, wow, how are all my topic based shows trending? How are all my guest shows trending? Because I have both. So when I have both, I want to look at both and see how they're doing. When you only have one kind it like guests. You're going to see a spike with a certain guest. Want to understand what did they do? Did they share it on social? Did they put it in a newsletter? Call them up, ask them, say, hey, thank you so much for sharing my show. I really appreciate it. Obviously you did something. Could you let me know what you did to promote the podcast so I can encourage others to do the same thing? They'll tell you, they'll share it with you. They're very generous about that. I haven't met a guest who wasn't willing to tell me what they did to help me boost my show. And I can always offer them something like, come back in six months, come back in a year. Let me offer you something. Come back next time you have your book to promote. I'm happy to have you on the show. Why? Because you do a good job of sharing me. So those are things that we want to analyze and we want to look and understand. And so did they share it on social? Where did they share it? Maybe that got a better impact. Maybe all your guests are sharing it really equally. But you have some guests that are sharing it on LinkedIn and it's going better than it is going over on Instagram. Those things could be happening. Well, there's a hint to maybe I want to find my New guest from LinkedIn, maybe I want to find my next guest from there. Try to find more that are similar to that person. Once you discover that it's working. So those are some things that you want to do, you can do the same thing with your topics. Are those topics trending? Is like, if I have a health and wellness podcast and are all the wellness episodes doing better or the mindset episodes doing better than the health topics, Then the supplement topics, then whatever it is that you do, you can group them together and start to understand. Do they have a different trend line? You can download these into an Excel spreadsheet, into a number spreadsheet. Whatever you guys use out there, you can sort and search them and take a look. Look at them and you can understand what's working, what's not, who's at the top of the guest list, and then go check them out. Don't check out every single one. Like, just check out the top 5 top 10. Just check them out and see what patterns you can determine. And those are going to help you decide how to do more of it. Then do one thing at a time. This is Thomson, my big thing, right? Design of experiment, right, Tom?

Only change one thing. Otherwise you don't know which of the two or three things you changed actually worked.

That's right. So if you're going to promote more on LinkedIn and that's something that you're going to strive to do because you saw that working with that guest and now you're going to do that internally, do it for a month, see if it's having an impact, then do the next thing. You have time here. This is not a sprint, it's a marathon. So take your time to make effective changes that are worth continuing.

But I will say, although it is a marathon, you've got to keep moving. You can't stand still. This will only work. You'll only get real information if you continue to publish on a regular basis. Our recommendation is minimum once a week. Otherwise it's going to take you even longer to get data and try and assess the trends. Right. It's very difficult to do it when you don't publish consistently. So that's the number one thing I would do. If you're trying to really assess this over time and figure out what's working, what's not, you got to publish regularly. That's number one.

Right. And then the real question to ask yourself and the question to ask others, other podcasters, other people that you admire, isn't, how do I increase my downloads? When you ask that question, they're going to tell you record more episodes because that's the only way to increase downloads.

There is truth to let look, it doesn't mean you have more listeners, just means publishing more episodes for those same listeners. Your downloads will go up. There is truth to that. There is a numbers game that can be played here, but it doesn't mean you have a larger audience. Okay.

And it actually can diminish the audience you have because you've given them too much content that they then can't listen to and consume and your listening actually goes down. We have seen diminishing returns on Playthrough happen from publishing too many episodes.

And although it's been a few years since we published our podcast that did multiple episodes a week, we had one longer episode and several shorter episodes a week. And they all did get plays. They give you have short ones, more touch points. If you're providing different kinds of value in those episodes can be very helpful. And if you're monetizing with ads can still work in those episodes. So more episodes doesn't always produce diminishing returns, but it can. I think that's fair. One a week. I don't think you have to worry about it. I think listeners are looking for people that are going to show up for them weekly. All right?

And that's why you can do some smaller tests, design of experiment like we talked about. Add a second one, add a bonus episode, add a little bit and see what happens. See if your listens actually increase, your playthrough doesn't go down, then do it again, add a second, you know, add another one in the next week. Right. So thinking about the way that you're going to it is. Our goal isn't to increase downloads. Our goal is to increase listeners who actually listen to our show because then they're likely to buy what we have to sell.

Absolutely. All right, so now I'm sure at this point in the episode, we got a lot of listeners and probably even a lot of our own customers that are here in the live, private zoom with us that are like feeling really kind of disheartened about all this scary honesty we're providing them about downloads and Spotify streams and all this good stuff. I hope you don't feel that way, but in case you do, I'm about to pick you up because we apologize, feel your pain. We're podcasters too. We want more real listeners, more downloads. And we have been working very hard to come up with ways to provide you with real value and get you exposure to more podcast listeners and to even more people outside the podcast ecosystem. So we have been testing, actually executing for quite some time now, too. We have two new programs. Okay. One is called PodClips. The other one is Pod Share. And I'm going to explain that PodClips is pretty easy that for anybody hosted on Palletties at our monetized level, which we're relabeling by the time this podcast airs, it's going to be our promote level of podcast and we're going to change that. But our highest level of hosting, you can provide an episode that's one of your latest episodes, and we will take five clips and you can choose the clips too. In fact, for do it yourself podcasters, you have to choose the clips, but five, 15 second clips, and we have a system of promoting those as ads in a whole series of literally hundreds and hundreds of different mobile apps on smartphones. Not podcast listening apps, other mobile apps that are free, that then people, after a while, because it's free, they're served an ad. Well, it plays your 15 second clip and shows your podcast cover art. And when they click, it goes to the link you want it to go to. We always recommend that's your podcast webpage or website, but it can go anywhere you want it to. So that is a way to raise awareness. And our podcasters, who we've been already doing this with, are getting tens of thousands of plays of those and then clicks going to their website. Now, we can't guarantee any of them are going to listen, but it's actually something we can do to get you exposure. And there's no additional cost other than hosting on Poditize at that monetized level. So that's.

You don't have to pay to advertise on the app. Somebody else is paying for it. Actually, we're just tapping into it and providing your content in conjunction with that. As we move forward, we're going to be dialing that in tighter and tighter so that the apps that they're just. We believe we can increase the conversion by making it tighter. So if you're a health and wellness show, you're going to be on health and wellness apps right now. It's a little broad. Yeah, it's a little broad, but we're narrowing it down and increasing that and that's what we're going to be doing over the next year.

But I'll tell you this, what other podcast hosting platform out there is actually promoting your show to other people out there in the world? None. So this is a value, but the next one, Pod Sharer, even better value. And here's why. With Pod Sharer, will you opt in? Your show is matched up four other five total shows, four other shows every month of a matching category, general subject matter, things that are relevant to other shows that are would have a similar audience towards like. Yeah, that type of audience in my show too. And we determine that ourselves. You don't get to choose that we're.

Matching actually determines it.

Right.

And then we confirm it right now because we don't trust the AI. So we're always confirming everything.

So what we do then is every show chooses an episode, a recent one and a five minute clip, excerpt, if you will, of that episode. What we do is we publish the excerpt of your show as a bonus episode on one of those other four shows each week of the month. That's why there's five shows. Because you don't need to put your own bonus episode on your own show, Right? Only on the four others. So it's a rotation every week. Each show has only one bonus episode, okay. Posted to, it goes up on Saturday night and then one it comes down the next Saturday and the new one goes up. So no show has ever more than one bonus episode at a time publishes on Saturday. So if your episodes publish on Monday, it's only at the top of the lineup for two days. Then your episode goes above it. But every subscriber to your show gets it. Same thing. You're on somebody else's show. Your excerpt episode is on someone else's show for that weekend. All of their subscribers get your excerpt with a little context. Basically, I would say, hey, feed your brand listeners. I've got a another show I think you might be interested in. Here's an excerpt. Enjoy. If you like it, look in the description. You have all the information for how to listen to that show. And so it's cooperative and collaborative. What we're doing is every podcast is giving a little exposure to another show for a week, but you're getting the same value. And we only put one new show in a pod of five. Others are more mature shows, so it helps give new shows a boost from the get go. But also season shows with a lot of listeners. They're still getting exposure to more listeners and it's win, win, win for everybody. So again, this is free. We're not charging for this, but you have to be hosting on Politize at the monetized level to opt in and participate. But we're very excited about because this is the first thing we've ever come up with in our decade of doing podcasting that actually gets a show new or existing show exposure to podcast listeners of other shows without paying for advertising and putting ads on them. And that's not what this is about. It's more cooperative and collaborative, but very win, win. So that's the exciting news. And with that we will be looking and you can look at your analytics month over month and see the growth. Actually we'll also be reporting your clips and how many plays they got on the other shows. You'll have visibility to that and hopefully grow everybody's numbers. Everybody help each other promote their shows, get more exposure.

I'm excited, Tom. I'm excited about a lot of these changes. There's also some really fundamental underlying cool technology that we put into this that most of you won't. We're not going to go into here because that's way too. I mean, we already have a techy enough show here talking about analytics. I'm not going into that, but there will be some demos as we go forward as we have more case studies to demonstrate what's going on and people who are willing to show their numbers and show how they've done on that side of it. We'll be sharing those out as well, so be following us anywhere on social media odditize and don't forget to go to potatoes.com and get all the details on unfeed your brand and all of our episodes where we talk about the things that really matter to growing your show and podcasting.

All right, thanks for listening everybody. We'll see you next time. It's been Tom and Tracey Hazzard on Feed. You'd brand.

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