Podcast Success Metrics: Ditching Overnight Growth for Authentic Retention With Christina Barsi

Warning, this podcast contains brutally honest opinions. If you're easily offended by the truth about your favorite shows, you might want to skip this. If you crave a no-holds-barred journey into what makes a podcast unskippable, then listen in as we, Tracy and Tom Hazzard, put our expertise and relationship to the test here on The Binge Factor. Hey, everyone. Welcome to The Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard, and I have Christina Barsi here. And Christina and I met in— gosh, it's got to be like 2021. We finally caught— we were finally at an event, the Outliers event. Maybe it was late 2020. I can't even remember now. It's been so long. But we were at our first live event after the pandemic in Austin, Texas. And she was on a panel, and she just blew my mind. She was just so good interviewing the panel that she was interviewing. And then she would So great at answering questions when she was in the hot seat as the panelist. And I just really appreciated her. And we connected, we had a little bit of chat, some drinks, and we had a lot of fun together. And I've been dying to get her back on my show and to get her onto my show, period, just getting back to a conversation with her. And it got lost in the shuffle somewhere. And finally, I found it and she found it and we got connected here. So I'm so glad to have her. And really, it's a great time because her Be Bold Begin podcast is really getting to its own stage. She has Avant House Media that she's working on. So there's lots of things that we could really talk to, because Christina Barsi began podcasting and producing in 2013. So she's an OG like I am. And so she's the host of the podcast Be Bold Begin and the founder of Avant House Media, a podcast production and development agency for women. Barsi's approach is holistic and alignment-focused, designed to serve the goals of the whole individual or The brand identity. In addition, she's a certified Kaizen Muse creativity coach, workshop creator and speaker, and creator of the Podcast Like a Podcast membership, the Women's Podcast Industry Network. Those are both really new, so we're gonna talk about 'em. And the Intuitive Creator's Method. I love intuitive creators. It's my favorite thing to talk about. Her creative background includes acting, writing, directing, producing, filmmaking, audio podcast production, editing, podcasting, audio hosting, voiceover, and she holds a BA in theater arts from UC.

San Diego.

She's just an all-around amazing podcast queen. Like, she just does it all, and she's self-taught. That's what I love about the way that she's gone into it. She's gone into it with this deep dive into, I'm going to figure this out, I'm going to understand this deeply, and then I'm going to support and help others with that. So let's talk to Christina Barsi, Be Bold, Begin podcast host. Christina, I am so glad we are finally making this happen. It has been like, you know, at least 3 years that I've been dying to have another chat with you, if not more. And you just made a big announcement, so we're going to talk about that today. But Christina, Be Bold Begin, podcast name.

Yes.

Avant House Media, your production company and all-around service business, and the Women's Podcast Industry Network. You are in and around this industry, but what drew you to podcasting?

Thank you. And yes, also have been dying to get back in the room with you because it's been a long time. So thank you for having me. Yeah, it came from a— it's a very personal story because I started podcasting 11 years ago in 2013, and I was an actor and was not super enjoying that experience because back then, it still is an issue, of course, but back then especially, the content being created for women just was so two-dimensional. And I wasn't feeling respected by any of my agents, or I can't even— there's so many silly stories about what I would get sent out for that I did not identify as. And so I was It was basically an identity crisis. It was an identity crisis on many levels, from the internal, the external. As a creative person, I groomed my entire adult life only to be an actor as a creative person. And so I didn't really understand what to do if that went away. Like, who was I without that? And I had no idea. And it was kind of earth-shattering at first and heartbreaking because I loved acting and loved the theater, particularly theater. So I started writing, and I was writing roles for myself that I would love to play, that I was allowing myself permission for the first time to think outside of the box that everyone was putting me in. And I was having a lot of fun doing that. I went down this geeky obsession with astrophysics and ended up writing a science fiction podcast is what happened. And I didn't know what podcasting was. I was just writing something fun. I ended up with an opportunity to record it and put it up. Immediately, and I loved that quick transaction.

That's my favorite part. I agree with you. It's so fast, right?

Yes, versus film and television and auditioning and all of those things.

Well, and theater takes forever, so—

That's true. Yes, totally. But at least when you're on stage, you have that quick experience with the— that communicative experience with the audience. And I love that too. And I was just looking for something like that again. And being able to put up a project overnight, essentially, which is what you're speaking to, was just strange and magical. And I was like, let's do it. do this and you're gonna let me do this? This is great.

How did you find though that there's no feedback? Like, that took me a while to be comfortable with, that you don't get that immediate feedback to your performance, to your content, to your message.

Well, I had a little bit of help because the space that we were recording in had an audience in it, so we did it all live.

Oh, so you kind of bridged both sides of it for yourself. Love that.

Yeah, so that was just what the package came with. I wasn't looking for that. I wasn't looking for anything. I was looking for someone to with. Like, let me play and let's do this. And we did that for 2 years. And the first year was totally live, meaning no editing. We just did it live. They did live folio, live sound design, live music, not with like a band, but with electronic music type things. And we had— it was a little art collective group of people in the community. And we would do it after hours in this record shop when they would close down. And the owner is the one who was doing this live streaming, this live streaming podcast at the time. And so I did have an audience. And we got to do— they did an interview with me immediately after every episode. So I also got just a bonus sort of thing where we could talk about what I had written and what we just performed. So the whole process was just so much fun that I was in. I was like, how do I do more? Everyone needs to know about this.

Like, how do I do more of this? I know. Well, and that was really early. So 2013, there wasn't a lot out there. It was really sort of the advent and kind of shift over with more garage podcasts Like, for lack of a better way to say it, more garage podcasters were coming to the forefront. Not many of them were live streaming because live streaming was not as popular. So you were really on the edge of the cutting edge of podcasting at the time.

Super lucky, super perfect lucky thing. It came out of a bartending conversation. Of course it did. Reading a good book, I said, hey, what else are you doing? And then I was like, can I Join you.

That sounds good. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get myself in there. Well, that's great. But now, but then it really expanded out and you started to do some more production work and you started to support other podcasters. And we met, of course, at an event. So like you started to do more and more of these outreach and events. So how did it cascade into something where you felt this is your calling, podcasting?

Yeah, because I was so inspired after that experience that lasted for a couple of years. I didn't want it to end. And I ended up producing a documentary about that story and about the creative process that comes along with podcasting. Casting because I wanted everybody to know that there's something you can do as a creative person and have all this control and have low barrier to entry and all this good stuff. So because of that, we went to film festivals and did pretty well for what we had because it doesn't fit any programming, what we were creating. So the fact that we got into any festivals was a miracle, but it's part of the journey because it's where I got my confidence as a producer by making that film. And It's also where I got my confidence to produce audio because I wasn't producing my own audio during that, that first podcast, that audio drama. But I had to do a live show and bring in my, my cast and do a live— I had to make a soundboard suddenly and I had to take it all with me to one of the film festivals because they wanted to feature us as a live show in their thing. So because I, I figured it out in like a week and I was again very proud of myself. And I got more confidence from this experience that I was like, this is fun. Like, I can do this. I can do more than I realized. I'm not just an actor who's waiting to be told what to do. I have technical capabilities that I grasped that way quicker than I would have ever expected, or, you know, this, that, and the other. So I decided I would teach myself post-production. And at that festival where we performed, I met this manager and I approached him and told him I was a podcast producer. And he gave me a client.

You're like, wow, I love that confidence. This is be bold, right? Like, be bold and begin. Like, that's what you did. It's so rare. We were talking before, as we do a little bit in the pre-call here, that one of the biggest problems is podcasters getting started. And we hear this really disingenuous message in the marketplace where they're like, oh, a 1-day bootcamp, or take this 1-hour course and you can be a podcaster, or my Least favorite, and you and I've heard the hosting companies will come out there and be like, all you gotta do is like go into our, start a hosting account and start recording. Like the least opportunity for success you have is to do that. But you have a, a launch program where you'd really talk about it and you talk about it in terms of 8 to 20 weeks. And I produced more shows than who, and I'm gonna say that is right on the money. In terms of the range. So you are well aware of how hard it is to actually really start a good quality show.

Yeah, thank you for that. And yeah, I think you've been in the production game longer than I have. I launched in 2018, in like January. I feel like you've been doing it longer, right?

Not much longer. I'm gonna say we stayed longer in sort of beta than probably— than we should have. So it— but it is probably maybe only about a year and a half longer than you.

Oh, wow. I will say that to the point of, and I won't spend a lot of time on this point, but because I was teaching myself a lot of the job while I was on the job with clients, it slowed me down a little, I'll be honest. And there were some other hurdles that came into play that very much influenced development, being able to expand into quantity. But what I learned through that process of having those sort of barriers that popped up through life, which I can get into if you want to, but I'm happy to share about it. It really showed me how to be hyper-intentional and understand how to work with brands and businesses to completely holistically understand inside out their goals, sometimes better than them, to build an entire pathway that goes on and on and on for years. So we ended up just really focusing on retention for a while, and that has been working for us for a long time. And as industry has shifted a little bit, so we're— our goals have shifted a little along with that, of course. as a company. Avant House Media is the name of the production agency that I founded. So, all that to say, because of that hyper-intentionality around strategy, it just became really obvious how much time we need and where the hangups can come in, in terms of that pre-production phase, that sort of early part. But the foundation, the foundation building, this is how you develop that retention. Because when you build—

This is how you can stick with it, and a sustainable show has a better foundation.

Absolutely. So, right, they're going to stay motivated, they're going to have something to stand on, and they're going to understand how to move forward continuously when they have that really deep, integrated foundational process on the front end. So I typically will only work with people that are willing to go on that journey.

Well, and I think people willing to go on that journey is really essential, and it took us a long time to figure out how to find them. You know, that was kind of our hard part in the business model, but I think also developing wins along the way? Like, that is the hard part about it. And so you've broken yours up into a path, a journey, phases, if you want to think of it like that. And really, are you giving them some tastes of success along the way of what this is going to look like?

Yes. I have a lot of opinions about success and a lot of strategy around that. And I end up talking about that mostly now when I go speak on stage because success It's a feeling. This is what I believe. And if we don't register success, then we don't realize it's happening. And I've had clients that comparatively are doing exponentially better and think they're doing total crap. Well, I have another client over here who is on fire about their show, and they have a way slower growth path than the one over here that's upset. And interestingly, like, I'm actually grateful I had those 2 clients at the same time because this really drilled it in for me. Like, wow, what is going on and how do I help express the success to the people that are, that have a lot to point to, where the one over here is, they don't need me to point to their success. They already understand what, what their success markers are.

Right. It, because they have their own internal system or their own brand metrics or, or some other way that they're looking at its purpose. And I do think some of that is, I'm gonna say the industry's full of a bunch of vanity metrics and garbage that isn't helping anyone with anything.

Harder now. It's harder now to have this part of the equation expressed at the early stages. I just had a conversation. I just have a new client that I spent a lot of time with yesterday, and we were talking about this part. And she's in marketing too. She's the marketing department I was speaking with. And we were talking a lot about ROI and how do we measure success? And I said, if I'm being completely honest with you, the first season— I do package things in seasons as well because it serves all the foundational things we're talking about. It's truly about just getting it going, like having the production itself be created at the highest esteem that you're hoping for with sound quality, format, creative, all of those things and doing that consistently and showing up and getting out of your own way and having some personal growth markers as a host. Those are the things you're measuring in the beginning because the numbers are going to happen and we're going to do things for that as well. But that's a slower growth marker that we start to look at a little later. Yeah.

And I think that that's it is you really do have to have some kind of measurements that you're using along the way. And I always call it like layers that you wanna have layers of success planned into the process. So like if I feel really good about the guests that I'm having on my show and I'm having wonderful conversations because of my personality, that's gonna feel like a success metric for me. But if all I'm getting on are the people I already know and you know, because that's the launch plan that they put you through and said, oh, just make a list of people and interview the people you already know. It feels old. It already feels old before I started. It doesn't feel energizing and satisfy my curiosity and excitement.

Yes. And you're tapping into— I love that you're using words like energizing and like what it feels like, because those are the things that we want to pay attention to. And I'm like a spy, like super, super paying attention and observing. What do they get excited about? Where do they light up? What's hard for them? What's going to be a hurdle they'll feel triumphant about that I think is approachable? Or where do they need a little bit of coaching so they see that growth moment? Or what are they just simply like, yes, this is so much fun. Like, this is going to keep me going. All right, let's do more of that. It's like, where am I leaning in? Where am I leaning out? What am I drawing attention to and shining light on for them? So it's like having that partnership, I think, super helps for them to not have to worry about where their success markers are too much because they have someone helping them identify those moments. And then another fun one is to identify their first couple of mistakes as success markers.

Because those things happen. Like, they happen to all of us, right?

Yeah. And it's like, let's celebrate. You, you know, we made a mistake, or like something got messed up, or, you know, you had your first flop. That means you're doing it. You're in the process. You know, the idea of a creative process is so foreign to a lot of people if they don't have anything like that going on in their natural, like, day-to-day experience. And I'm used to being in that process, but a lot of people aren't. So that is Honestly, like what the first like block of—

Because I mean, in the entertainment industry, there's what we would call workshopping, right? You're workshopping things, you're testing them out, seeing how they play on an audience. If you were in comedy, you'd be doing, you'd be testing out your jokes, right? Like this is what they do. And we don't do that in business enough. So the business branding side of it doesn't get that experience. They're like so afraid to make a mistake.

Totally. Yeah, money is mistakes, right? Time is money. Like, we hear all of these things. It's like we can't waste, can't waste, can't waste. But nothing's ever a waste because it's a growth moment, and growth is success. But I also wanted to share one last thing, which I was touching on. I kind of went on a tangent, was you getting energized about something. What I was going to say was that you're tapping into what makes you feel fulfilled, and fulfillment is success's companion. So we don't register success, we don't let it land unless it's connected to something that we connect to our fulfillment. And it can be really small, like this gets me excited or this makes me energized, or this feels like, eh, and this feels yay. Like it can be, you know, it's just noticing and then allowing ourselves to kind of really understand that those are important moments.

You've just hit on something, Christina, that I really have noticed, cuz I've interviewed so many successful podcasters here and really when sometimes when you dive in their numbers, they're not as what industry would consider success as the actual results they're getting from the show. And part of it is because it's fulfilling something for them. And it might be fulfilling something personal. It might be fulfilling something that was a gap in their business that they didn't even know they needed. And because that podcast is filling that for them, success is happening.

Right. There truly is success follows joy. Yeah, I do think so because we lie to ourselves and society has done this forever that working hard is where you find success. And I'm realizing that's a big Fat lie. Yes, you have to work hard. I'm the hardest working person you'll meet. I wake up to work, and then I go eat dinner, and that's it. Like, that's like my whole day because I'm working on things that I'm really passionate about. It brings me joy. I love it. I jump out of bed and want to go do it. And I don't know when to stop because I like what I'm doing.

Right. But retention and sustainability really happen when you have that fulfillment and success factors like lining up together. And so I love that you're really focused on that. built for that in everything that you do. But I also think that the missing link for so many people who are out there looking for a producer or looking for a support network, and we're gonna talk about that in a minute, 'cause I definitely wanna talk about the new thing that you've launched. But when they're looking for the support, they're not looking enough to people who have had the opportunity to have the contrast of things. So, they join a sports network and everybody's got the same formula. They pay for a podcast launch course and everybody follows the same steps. But what that doesn't take into consideration is the things you and I have seen is when that doesn't work, why didn't it work? And what should you do different? And because you've seen those failure points that you were just talking about, you know where to shift them. You see it and you instantly go, oh wait, this isn't gonna work for you in the same way. Let me make some suggestions. And that only comes with repetition of doing this again and again for multiple companies, but also doing it again and again and not having it work the same way every time.

Right. Yeah. It's speaking to your point about being afraid to mess up. It's like, I have to be afraid— I have to be— sorry, I have to be comfortable to screw up. I have to be comfortable—

Which is hard to do when you're a producer for somebody else's show, right?

Totally. Like, yeah, they're handing it over to you. And if I'm being honest, And I'm realizing this in real time. I think subconsciously being comfortable with success— or excuse me, with failure and wanting to teach that comes with trying to give myself permission to fail. You know, it's this lovely cycle that we do when we reflect because we're always reflecting ourselves onto things and then reflecting back onto us, right? But it became really important to me to walk through failure in ways that feel useful and graceful and growth-oriented. And because if I don't, then I have no business expecting others to take that journey and to embrace that journey.

Right. Right. Yeah, it, I think it is. It's very much a focus on mindset. And that's why I love what you've built with the Women's Podcast Industry Network is this opportunity to network and talk about these things more because it's so critically important that we have a different mindset going in. And I think people don't understand that podcasting, unlike a lot of other media types, it's not set in stone. There's a lot of flexibility. You can fix a lot of mistakes. They're not fatal, right? And our audiences are so wonderfully forgiving. So thank goodness for that too, right? They're just glad we're here. producing a podcast and still sticking with it. So they're very forgiving. But that becomes this mindset of it being an experiment and practice and workshop. And if we can get someone who is saying, I didn't hire you to be perfect, I hired you to walk this path with me, is a really different model. And that's not as easy to embrace in the beginning of a business. And so you've, I'm sure, found your path there.

Yeah, it's a lot of branding alignment. And yeah, I talk about alignment a lot too, but it comes from kind of, you know, just to jump off of what we were already talking about, which is really understanding ourselves and really understanding what does bring us joy and what energizes us and all that good stuff. And then clearer and clearer, I mean, it's an, again, it's an ongoing process that we'll do forever because we'll continue to get to know ourselves, but, and things shift and change. So the clearer and clearer we get on those core things, the more those start to show up in the thing, the action pieces, like our branding or the message we have or how we share, how we even talk to people or where we show up or where we wanna show up, who's in our lives. Like it just starts to permeate everything and it becomes really easy to align with. You're just gonna attract the things that you are putting out because it's so consistent. Right.

And I think that's why when you said the foundation has to be so strong and that's really important to spend time on it because We are going to attract those things. So if we want success at the end, we better be attracting the right things to begin with, or it's not gonna lead us there.

Yes. There's, you can fix a foundation along the way or improve it, I should say, but it's much harder.

It's much harder. I can say that from having fixed a lot of foundations over the years.

I'm sorry.

Yes. Yeah, cuz that's kind of our core is we're always fixing the foundation, right? That somebody who says, I really do love podcasting. But something's not working, it's broken. And most often it's— there's a technical foundation problem, then those are easy to fix. But when there's a brand alignment, that's really hard to get them to be willing to fix.

And to see it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you find— sorry, I have a backup question for you.

Sure, ask me.

In those moments that it has more to do with them wanting to not go backwards in the work that they've done. Like, they get attached to all the work they've already done, but it's in the past, so it's not a loss. It's about moving forward, right? But I think a lot of us are like, but I put so much work into this, so they wanna keep it.

Yes, I do. I think there's that. And I think there's also, uh, it's bigger than that in that somebody important to them gave them that advice, someone they perceive as a leader, an expert, successful.

Mm, okay.

And so they're afraid to let go of that because will that cause a collapse of the success, of the some amount of success that they're having? They're afraid if they let go of that, that will cause, that will cause a different failure.

I understand. Yeah, what's that ripple effect?

What's that ripple effect? Exactly. And so I do see that a lot. And so that's why we try to fix the technical things, 'cause those are easy to fix. They don't have an outward-facing, they're not changing the way you're interviewing or changing the brand of the show necessarily. And fix those things first and give them a taste of trust and success with us so that when they say, okay, well, what else can I do? It'd be like, you're not going to want to hear this, but you're going to need to change the COVID art of your show or the name of your show if you really want this to take off. That is a hard conversation to have. It is not something I want to do with someone who doesn't trust me yet.

Totally. Yeah, that's always really difficult. I think With the phase the industry is in right now, there's more podcasters now than those that aren't. I feel like it's a lot different waters, I should say. And the, the sea is, is a vastness of actual people have tried to launch a show already at some point or have had a show or want to relaunch something. And it is a lot more of like, okay, what are we doing different this time? Or are we doing anything different this time? And yeah.

Well, let's talk about the Women's Podcast Industry Network that you just launched recently. And it's an actual networking and you've got an app going on, you've got resources. There's a lot in here to unpack, but who is it really for?

Yes, thank you for asking that. So I'm still working on my clarity, so let's see how this goes.

You know what, that's it. We gotta explore it. It's always a test.

Absolutely. This is my favorite test, is to be like, okay, do they get it if I say this sentence? So right now, it— the way I'm phrasing it is that it's for anyone who works or creates in the podcast industry. So that could be someone like us who— we both have podcasts as well, but let's say we didn't and we just had our companies. It could be for someone like that. It could be someone who works at a job, like someone who is a producer at Spotify, let's say, like an executive, or obviously for podcasters too. And the reason I say that is because the reason I want to include those, those people for a few different reasons, but one is because I want to focus on the you, the you behind the do, if you will, because we're all doing these wonderful things in this industry that is very dear to me that I think amplifies so many things for our culture and society by being just by the nature of what it is. podcasting, getting our voices out there and our messages and our authenticity. And for those of us who are behind the scenes, we're a really interesting breed. We typically do a lot of different things. We're typically, typically very motivated and we do like creativity or we wouldn't be podcasting on some level. So we're wearing a lot of hats and we're trying to create change. And there's something really cool about that. I love those people. And the people I want to help is them. Like the project stuff, there's tons of information now. I don't feel like I need to fill that gap per se, but I do think there's space for more niche communities for us to find each other, which is why I made it for women and for non-binary people and femme, because I had trouble kind of finding a lot of spaces like that that were for all of us to work on wellbeing and our projects and our mindsets and to show up somewhere to get to our next level. Like, how do we get to our next level, like personally and professionally? What does that look like as a process? us while we create all of these amazing things in our businesses and projects and all this fun stuff.

Well, I love that because this is an industry that any kind of industry groups that came out of this all came out of radio before. Very male-dominated, very old school. And honestly, the conversation we had at the beginning when you were talking about learning how to edit sound, they'd all be like scoffing at that as you're not a real podcast producer. This is what they think. And I heard it so many times before. It frustrates me. To the point where I'm like, okay, how am I going to do this different? How am I going to abandon what you believe there so that I can do something completely creative and different?

Yeah. And I lead with that. I was like, what are people going to think? I was like, you know what? I'm so tired of walking into a studio where I'm the producer running the room and the sound engineer is acting like I'm an idiot because I work in podcasting or because, you know, film or whatever it is. And it's like, I taught myself everything, you know, like how long did it take you? You know what I mean? It's, it's just like, why are we comparing?

And this is the part that I love. It's like when I tell people that I recommend an $80 microphone, which I do as well, always under $100, because the other microphone actually makes it harder to do the job, harder to produce the show, harder to edit the show. It makes it harder on the other side of it. I have reasons for it, but the minute I do that, I must not be a real producer. Like, that's it.

It's like, I'm like, that kind of detail is fascinating.

That's how I know you're going to not have actually successful clients that are gonna last long with you is if you sell them a $500 microphone.

That shows me you don't know what you're doing.

That's right. You don't know what you're doing, right? Or you have to come in a studio because we didn't do that. Look at us. We, our businesses boomed in 2020, both yours and mine. That's because we met right after that. And we were really busy because we said you didn't have to use a studio. That wasn't a requirement.

And you know what? I was using studios because of the, what that those clients wanted as an experience. I had to pivot every single client I had into understand, I had change their minds that it'll be okay and that we'll still have good quality and that there's—

But you had the experience of being like out in the field and doing stuff, so you knew non-studio work worked.

Totally.

Yeah, so that's why I say that that way. But I, I think this is so true, and I, I think that's the part I want everyone to really hear. What Christina said here is that this is a podcast industry network. It's not a podcast network where I want your show on the network and we're going to sell ads, and there's a lot of those networks out there. This is an industry collaboration, conversation, networking, because we can really learn some things from each other.

Exactly. I'm— every time someone joins, we're, we're so new, so we're just collecting— people are trickling in, I should say, which is in a, in a steady rate. And I love them and I love seeing like who joins and what they're up to. And it's fascinating. There's someone who's creating, you know, AI and audio right now and she's super passionate about it. And it's just fun to see what everyone's doing and where the opportunities are going to be. So I try to think of it a place where you might show up for the networking, but you're going to stay for the shifts because you're going to grow personally.

You're going to learn something so valuable that you could apply in your business. And I think that's often, it's like, especially when you've developed everything from scratch for yourself, you're going to make the same mistakes that I made. And I'm going to make the same mistakes as the next person who's doing, working on something else. And why not learn from each other so we can help each other avoid those future mistakes?

I also think we're in a collaborative place business-wise. Do you feel that way? I feel like there's just something happening in a nice way where we can grow economically together a little bit more than we maybe have in the past with our silos. I like that.

I think it's because there's so much of the industry that's not successful because we have such a pod fade rate, a high pod fade rate. We can't risk not collaborating or we're going to harm the industry overall. Like, I'm kind of angry, and I have been for a long time, at Anchor and Spotify for what they did that made that number so much worse. And that was that they paid podcasters ad dollars for— to just to get them on the platform so Anchor could get bought by Spotify. Like, that's really what they did. And it was this big VC play. And in the end, not one of those shows were successful. And so they ended up with a 95% pod fade rate a year later. And that did a tremendous disservice to all the rest of us in the industry who were building great shows.

Yeah, it's interesting when you start diving into those metrics and sort of the, what feels like a growth and topple effect. Like, I don't know if there's, that's probably not a real term, but that's how it feels. That's the visual I think of when I visualizing, you know, the actuality of that. And anytime anyone says the word anchor, I unfortunately cringe.

Yeah, I know we all do. That's the part is within industry, we cringe about that, but yet that's where the newbies go. And they build such a bad foundation, right? It's, they're going to a place that's going to cause failure. It's the failure point, not you.

From a technical standpoint too, I was, I was frustrated before. I tend to step back when things start happening like that, and I just kind of start focusing on things for me that are right in front of me, because it's for, personally, it affects my mental health. I like, all those things kind of stick to me, those metrics and all the craziness. But yeah, when people go over to Anchor, the technicality of it not really serving them well from a basic standpoint where there was issues around ownership of their RSS feeds and things like that in the early stages. And I know that's changed, but—

The intention's not right. It's already set up, even though that's not the actual case anymore. It's, that's their, that's their philosophy.

Yeah. There's something very off about it. And there's a few other areas in the industry that reflect the kind of disservice, I should say, to those trying to be Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see that.

But this is the thing, is that those of us in the industry, we hear this, we know this, we could steer people away from that, but they don't find us as easily because they've got weight, they've got the backing of Spotify, and that makes it really hard. That's why we have to group together like this. How can we make sure that the consistent word is getting out? Well, an industry network is a great way to do that.

Yeah, and I do want everyone to be tapped into each of those areas. I think as a podcaster, that's a huge resource to be tapped in with the executives and the executives executives and the sales teams and the people working inside of different facets. To me, that's been so useful on my own journey. So it was kind of more like, what do I love about my personal professional network? If we were all in a room together, what would that be like? And, you know, maybe not everyone is taking a sales call every day like me, you know, and those become my best friends, which is the truth. It's so funny, but that's just because it's who I'm iterating with on a regular basis that aren't my clients. But I learned so much from their side of it. What are their goals? What are they doing? Where do their core values lie? And why are they in this industry? Like, I'm a I'm always asking those questions too. So it's usually coming from a really great place, the people that work inside of all of these, these places. And oftentimes they move on and they go independent because they also get tired of everything you just described with Spotify and Anchor. And as podcasters—

Or they get forced out. That's happened too. I can't tell you how many Spotify resumes I've seen in the last month alone. I'm like, we don't hire quite like that, but thank you. You know, I appreciate it.

Yeah, unfortunately the way—

But I'm glad you're opening up the network to that because I can say the number one issue that I have is I'd be like, someone will come, but I was using this really great producer and my show used to— I modeled it after something that was done at Wondery. And I'd be like, yeah, but you don't have deep promotion pockets, so you can't overcome your technical problem that they don't even understand or know about because their engineers aren't keeping up with the industry changes.

Wow.

Like things like Show description. I still see out of iHeart and the big networks, I still see less than 400-character descriptions, but the search engine needs— has 4,000 that it's capable of doing. If you want your show to be found, either have to pay dollars to promote it, which they're doing, so that's— they can compensate for having a really short description, or you can use the search engine to your advantage. Stupid technical, but those engineers don't even know it.

Yeah. Yeah. There is a—

And producers don't know it, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Because there's no place to learn from an industry standpoint, right? And collaborate together. And so I love that that's what you brought together here. And I'm very excited to see where it goes and participate in the process and see what we can bring together. I mean, this is why you and I have been dying to have a chat together because we knew we'd have synergy of things that we found and learnings that could help each other. And now you've created that. Is that why you did it? Is like, you were like, I really need this and I want this, so I'm going create it for myself? Or, you know, what really made you kind of like do that?

Great question. I made it for you, Tracy.

No, I know. I feel like you did.

I mean, kind of. It was truly like, what do I want and what am I hearing others want? And I took 2 years to really listen. And then I spent time on calls with a few people prior to really launching it to build it out based on the feedback I was getting. But I had to be in love with it first. And it was truly What do I want to wake up and what do I want to wake up and do and experience? And how do I like to interact? And what is the thing I love about this industry and podcasting, all this stuff? And it's this kind of stuff, talking with people like you. And I love the community and it's the true reason I go to conferences. You know, it's just, sure, we learn as a byproduct, but I'm really there to like iterate and meet other people and bounce ideas off people. And I miss— I'm a solo founder. I don't have a co-founder for my business. And there's so many times I'm like, ah, who do I share this idea with to see It's a lonely road running, running a consulting business, or, you know, especially as a solopreneur.

I agree with you. It's really hard.

Yeah. I mean, I have my team, but they aren't always the best people to bounce ideas off either, because their perspective and their buy-in to what I'm sharing is not necessarily the person I need the input from. So—

Well, it can also cause panic. That's all I'm saying. If you give them too many ideas, they're like, oh my gosh, everything's going to change for us. And they don't know what to do. They get worried, right? So you can't really do that.

Yes. And I've had that experience because we did do a lot of changes this last year, as you have been sharing— thank you— on this platform. And I did get a little panic response from my project coordinator, and she's like, are we still a production company? I'm like, yes, yes, don't worry, right?

We've got everything. Well, so before we go, because I, I do want to say this, so I can see in your feed that you are not podcasting as consistently because you've been working on these I took a break, yeah. What's it gonna take to get you back and make it sustainable? Where is that thing that energizes you about your show? Because that's obviously what you gotta tap back into.

Yeah. And, you know, it's not that I was not energized by the show I was creating, Be Bold Begin. I love that show dearly, and I've been creating it for a long time. But what happened was that show also shifted in the way we were able taking— having conversations, I should say— that sort of launched me into all the things I'm doing now. So instead, I'm creating a new podcast. So instead, I'm creating a new podcast that is in alignment completely with everything that I'm doing currently so that the messaging is clear and you're not getting confused when you're going to Be Bold Begin and people are like, what's it about? And I'm like, well, in year 1, it was about this. In year 2, it became about this. Now it's about this. And I just was like, you know, I don't want it to be a catch-all anymore for my ideas.

You know what this is? And this is something really hard. I think when we were talking about like, you know, how you get them to shift, how you get them to change that foundation, sometimes it just isn't good on this foundation. Like that's just not as much as we want to save the equity and the investment we made into that podcast and all those listeners and subscribers. Sometimes it's just not gonna work and we gotta start a new show.

Yep. And it was a long thought process before I decided to do that. I do have people emailing me and being like, when are you coming back? And I'm like, don't worry, I've already started recording episodes for the new one. So it's happening. It's just I'm taking my time so I could be more intentional with my energy and not shorthand anything that I'm doing. And I typically don't do that, so I'm allowing myself— I'm giving myself permission to do that this time and try to focus a little bit more.

Well, if I know anything about you from having followed you over the years here, Christina, I know that you will come back with full force with a really intentional, wonderful show that's well-produced, obviously. 'Cause, I mean, everything about the way your show comes across— and I'm here to analyze everyone's binge factor. I'm not gonna do that here on your show because it's gonna be different. So I'll do it again at some point in the future. Maybe I'll do a little video shout-out to you when the new show comes out and tell you what I think your binge factor will be on the new version of it. But everything that you do is so well done.

Thank you.

It is your integrity in action. So I know that's going to happen in the new version of the show too.

Thank you. Yeah, we're really, we're really just taking those last deeper conversations and creating a space where that is what we do. And it's going to be all women guests and women in leadership, women doing cool stuff and projects and just highlighting how they boss like a goddess because that's my new tagline. I love that.

I love that. Boss like a goddess. Is that what you're going to change the show to?

Yeah, that's the teaser. I don't mind calling it, like, sharing that now because I've already changed my Instagram handle. And that's the messaging in the Women's Podcast Industry Network as well. It's like how to boss like a goddess. Like, how are we doing that? How are we creating— how are we honoring ourselves as goddesses as we go boss up this world without the girl boss stuff?

We want it unhustled and nice, and we want it to be authentically us, right?

Be authentic. We want it to be You know, want to give ourselves permission to be a person.

Well, I have to say, I think we're very lucky in the podcast industry to have you have found so much dissatisfaction in the entertainment industry and brought your perspective here to us. So thank you, Christina, for being such a fantastic part of this industry and how you're going to show up for us going forward too.

Oh, thank you so much. And yeah, that's my goal. I just want to show up and it's so motivating to be showing up for this community. I love it so much. Thank you, Tracy, for just having such a wonderful talk with me.

I really had so much fun catching up with her and getting to know backstory that I didn't really have completely about how she got started. When you're at an event and you've got 20 minutes and you're a panelist, they kind of gloss over some of those things. So we didn't really all have that time. We were just talking about monetizing podcasts and getting into the nitty-gritty. So we never got a chance to have this wonderful discussion on her background and how things work. And I loved how she was really talking about the path that she's taken, the path that she's taken to supporting others. She has an, an 8 to 20 week roadmap, meaning she is not rushing this podcast thing. There are so many who'll be out there and going, let's launch a podcast in a day, or let's do this in 30 days. And it's really disingenuous because it doesn't give you the time to really put your house in order. Your Ava house. Doesn't allow you to put all that media, all the pieces and parts you need to put together and put it in order. And to think about them strategically so that you're really doing this at the top level of brand development. So I love that she really has this methodology for really looking through and thinking about these things and working with people. So she's not rushing this. And she wants you to keep going just like I do. I want to have you be able to podcast today, tomorrow, and always. Hopefully it keeps working for you. So the Women's Podcast Industry Network, I love that she's putting this together because this isn't just for Like women podcasters. This is for women podcasters in the industry, right? This is our industry insider network. I'm really looking forward to getting engaged in that and looking forward to her bringing that off and really getting that moving because it's been so necessary. Because the way that I— us women approach this network and industry is very different than some of the OGs, right? Some of those other gurus out there giving advice. Christina's advice is very different. My advice is very different. This is really nitty-gritty working for us women and men, but working for that small to mid-sized enterprise and not working at this top level, like, let's do this or let's give it up kind of methodology that a lot of what's out there in the industry is playing to. So I know that she's inviting men in there too. So I just want you to understand women and men, but it's an industry perspective that not everyone has. So think about joining. Links will be in the podcast blog post for this episode at podcastersunited.org. And I'll be back next week with another great podcaster who's in a really interesting health and wellness niche. So I can't wait for you to hear about him. So tune in next week here on The Binge Factor. Get ready to binge on our next podcast deconstruction as we uncover the hidden mistakes that can make or break a show. Want your podcast to have that irresistible binge factor? Factor 2, go to podcastersunited.org for a treasure trove of free resources and live expert coaching. Don't let your podcasting voice fade out. Renovate your show today before your podcast becomes a money pit and not a moneymaker.