Podcasting's Unsung Heroes: Recognizing The Undervalued Work Behind The Mic With Podcast Insider Skye Pillsbury

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority Magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital.

Noise with the Binge Factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Binge Factor. I told you last week that I am really excited about this guest because I have been trying to get her. I've been trying to just have a conversation with her and so the podcast is just an excuse to have one. But I have been fascinated by someone who writes about the podcast industry since I met her at she podcast back in 2020, late 2020 I think I met her. And so I've been just fascinated by her and been so excited to finally get a chance to get her on the show so we could have a conversation about the industry. So I have Sky Pillsbury on and she writes a newsletter on its substack called the Squeeze, and she really is writing more about those that are in the podcasting industry, radio adjacent. And so she writes a lot about what's going on at Spotify, what's going on at AM fm, what's going on in the industry in general that's affecting those jobs and the way the quality of podcasting is occurring in the industry. And she doesn't hold back. Like that's what I really loved about the way she writes is that she gets the inside track. People talk to her and they really talk about like what it is. But she's not bashing the industry. She's really trying to uncover why it's going on, what it's going to affect next. And so I really look at it as this insider view of podcasting and that's why I was so excited to have her on. And she just has so much to share with us. So let me tell you a little bit about her background just so that I can get you a little bit of information about sky beyond it. But you're going to want to check out that newsletter like a asap. Sky reports on all the fascinating and sometimes messed up stuff that happens behind the scenes in the podcasting audio industry. Prior to founding the Squeeze, sky was a contributing writer at Hot Pod and the original writer of the Inside Podcasting newsletter and creator, producer and host of a podcast where she interviewed podcasters about their craft. So she certainly knows the interview side of things. She knows about podcasting. She knows about the ins and outs, all things audio industry and podcasting. That's why I couldn't wait to have her on. So let's have a conversation with Sky Pillsbury.

Sky, I met you at the very first she podcast in person. I had kind of been following you before that, but I. I met you in person. You were giving a talk with Arielle Nissenbla.

Yes, I remember that.

Yeah.

I think we were talking about getting press for your podcast or something like that, something along those lines.

And I think it sort of snowballed and it was like better conversation even after. Like, it was. It was really good. But what I was really so taken by the two of you especially, but. But especially you, because of where. Of your view of it, is that the influence that the bigger networks and the media groups and the radio stations who also have podcasts have on the podcasting industry isn't always good. And you write about that in a really interesting way. So why don't you tell us all about kind of your little bit of a journey from into this sort of radio to podcasting media to podcasting.

Sure. Yeah. Well, and I can explain in that context, like, why. Why I focus on what I focus on. So I started writing about podcasting years back for Inside Podcasting. That was my first writing job. And I was. I had, like, stars in my eyes. I had started out as a fan and just wanted to figure out a way into this industry. I just wanted to be part of it. And so what fell in my lap, as I said, was Inside Podcasting. And. And that was where I was supposed to just sort of curate the news and what have you. And I love doing it. I felt like I was being paid to learn about the industry that I was so fascinated by. In the process of doing that, I learned a few different things. First of all, I learned that the people who are in podcasting, particularly independent podcasters, were just so welcoming. They had no reason to trust. To trust me to, you know, but they were just like, yeah, come on in. Like, let. What do you need? Like, I can tell you about this. I can tell you about that. Like, I just felt this warmth both through my newsletter and the responses I would get. But also, you know, I was really involved with Twitter, you know, podcasting, Twitter, and. Which, of course, is different today than it was then, but I felt like I was able create all these great connections. So from there, I ended up having. I started a podcast At Inside Podcasting, I interviewed podcaster podcasters about their craft, which, by the way, was also incredible because I got to call up my podcasting heroes, and again, they were just so welcoming, wanted to talk to me all about what they were doing. But in the wake of the pandemic, I had to take a break from working and focus on what was going on in my home life. And so I was freelancing, and I became a contributor for Hot Pod, which probably a lot of your listeners have heard of, but, you know, when it was owned by Nick Qua, it was sort of like this town newspaper in a way. And when I decided to, I wanted to write about the producer experience, the podcast producer experience. And I was interviewing someone who had been at. I can't name this person, but they were at a big organization. This person has definitely produced and made podcasts that many of us have heard. And she kind of went off script in a way. Like, I was still sort of like, this industry is amazing and everything is, you know, great. And she really opened up to me about experiences that she had had where she felt like she wasn't valued and she didn't want to be part of the article. Like, that's how she was also, you know, it's a small industry. You don't want to piss someone off, for lack of a better word, or.

Not get your next job.

Exactly, exactly. And so she was, you know, understandably nervous about that. So she didn't want to be quoted, but she was the person who really opened my eyes to. There is kind of this underbelly to, like, the podcast producer experience in this industry that is not always positive. And as you were saying earlier. And so I ended up writing a story. I ended up finding other people who would speak on the record. And that story was called the Undervalued Work of the Podcast Producer. I believe this was years ago. I can't quite remember, but it's one of my favorites.

I have. I have, like, re. Tweeted it, re. Shared it in LinkedIn. Like, it's in my evergreen, because I think it was such a good article. Sky, I think you did a fantastic job of really looking at it from all angles. And that, I think, is something that no one has done before.

Oh, well, thank you. And I, I, I did feel that, like, I. When I. When that story went out, actually Nick Qua, you know, reached out to me that day and said, you know, like, wow, your piece is really, like, I don't remember the words he used, but, like, it had really struck A chord he heard from a lot of his readers. And people were public publicly, as you said. Thank you, Tracy, for retweeting it. Like, I was getting a lot of feedback on it. And so eventually, after Hot Pod was acquired and that gig sort of went away, which I was very heartbroken about, because I had loved doing what I was doing for Nick, and he was a great editor for me, but I was happy for him. Sad for me. I eventually decided to start my own newsletter, and I really. That. That experience of writing that piece, not only did it strike a chord with others, but it really opened my eyes, and in a way, sort of was the moment where I realized, oh, this is what I'm here to do. I'm here to be the proxy for people who are the working people in podcasting. Whether or not that means you're independent or you are, you know, working as a producer for a larger organization within public radio or commercial.

Enterprises, I want to be that person. I want to be the proxy for them. Because I was not hosting a podcast anymore. I was not worried about not getting a job in podcasting, because that's not what I'm trying to do. But I can be their voice. And so that's in large part why it's called the Squeeze. Because in a way, what I saw was that those. The people who were actually doing the work were the people who were getting also squeezed out of the conversation, squeezed out of the financial opportunity, you know, they were being. I mean, in a way, a lot of producers, I think, feel a little bit taken advantage of. Right. Used, squeezed by this sort of machine. And this was also, you know, I started that newsletter when everything was going gangbusters still, and there was more financial opportunity. But I think looking back, even it's clear now that that opportunity, that a lot of people were not able to make anything out of that opportunity, given their position within the industry. And so, you know, I've found no lack of interesting stories. Right. I think my biggest challenge has been my own. You know, I'm also juggling other things in my life and so staying consistent with writing it. So I've actually found.

Well, it's every podcaster's problem staying consistent. Right. That's why the pod fade is so high.

I know you're not alone there in.

You know, as a writer, because it's the same thing.

It really is. It's funny how many parallels I feel between.

Well, I started out blogging and writing, and I started the podcast because I was a fan. Our very first one was on 3D printing. You may not know that because, you know, we've.

We haven't had, you know, that. I've heard you mention that on your podcast. So I.

Okay, so, yeah, I've mentioned it before. Yeah. So that's really where my foray into it. But I loved podcasting, so, like, it was an excuse to try it. Right. And so it was, you know, coming from that same perspective both you and Arielle have, was you were fans, and that was, you know, I think it makes a very different type of podcaster. And so, yeah, so kind of coming in that world from that perspective and testing it out and trying it out, But I was having so much difficulties keeping consistent with my writing, getting more people to read, like. And so podcasting felt, like, easy compared to that. So to me, that was how it was easier for me to stay consistent with podcasting. But I have the same problem with people who are like, I can't consistently podcast.

That is so fascinating to me, Tracy, because when I was right, when I was hosting the podcast for Inside Podcasting, I found it. I found that part really challenging because of the editing process was. And maybe it's because in some ways, like, technology has gotten easier, but for me, like, I thought it was going to be easier than it ended up being. I really admire people for whom, like, this process feels easy because, I mean, part of it might have been, I don't know how often you were writing, but, like, I was supposed to be writing a newsletter every day, and that newsletter took work. You know, I had to be researching, so also to be interviewing someone. And I was very intent on, like, doing all of my homework before I interviewed someone and, you know, listening to every. You know, as many episodes as I could and all of that, knowing their history, having the right questions to ask. And then I was. I did, like, a lot of editing afterwards because I had this terrible habit. I don't know if you've ever struggled with this. It's certainly not apparent on your podcast. But I would take people because of my natural curiosity. I would take people on all sorts of tangents that I wanted to know, but that were not, like, for example. I'll give an example. I was interviewing Leon Nayfak, who's the host of. He was the host of Slow Burn, and he's gone on to launch many other podcasts under his own banner. But anyway, I interviewed him, and he had written a book that had nothing to do with podcasting. It was actually more about, like, a musician that he admired. And I had read the book. And I was so fascinated by the book. And so I'm interviewing him about that, which I know I'm not going to include in my podcast for my listeners because it has nothing to do with why they're listening to me, but because I would do that kind of thing, then I would be left with sort of this, like, well, how do I piece together? And so I. I made it much more complicated for myself. I think if I was to host a podcast today, I think I would be a little bit more self direct, you know, a little clearer. Yeah, like, okay, I'm going to ask them these questions and not stray. But it was just hard for me.

Our show today is like much more edited than any. It will be. I mean, we're still recording it here, but for those of you that are listening to it, this is much more edited than any other show that I've done. And that's because I wanted to have a chance for us to meander a bit because I wanted to. I'm so curious as to your view of the world and is it going to be relevant to all podcasters. Maybe not. And maybe I'll cut it. And maybe it will be something, you know, that we don't want to talk about on air. I doubt it, because I have a feeling that we're going to be hitting on a ton of things here today that everyone's going to be interested in. But that's kind of my model for it, is that I think there's a really good place for what I would say is pre production. And that's what you're talking about. That idea that I prepare really well. I've focused all this in. And if you do a better job in the pre production, then the post production should be simpler. Not always the case, but it most often is.

Yes.

And that's where I think in the podcasting industry in general, we're at a lack of really great pre production that isn't costly.

And I think actually I actually spent a short stint giving like being a, for lack of a better term, like a professional listener to podcasts and then giving podcasters feedback. A few of us actually. Was Ariel part of that? I can't remember, but a number of us were hired by this one company that sadly has. Doesn't exist anymore, but we were hired to do that. It was a hosting company, actually. And one of their benefits that they wanted to provide to podcasters was, you know, like having these quote unquote experts, like, listen to your show, give you feedback. And it was really rewarding. Like, at least a handful of the people that we worked with started charting, which I know there's a whole thing about charting, but, you know, they. We really did see a cause and effect, you know, like when you make your podcast better, it actually starts getting noticed. That's right. And so one of the things I was just going to say to your earlier point is that with some of those podcasters, what we would notice is that they weren't doing that. They weren't preparing. They weren't. It was sort of like a fly, you know, fly by the seat of your pants kind of a show. And it was clear. Right. And the thing that I think so many people don't understand is that if you do that, if you're meandering in a way that is not useful at all to your listeners for more than a minute, sometimes you're losing, you know, when you're a brand new podcaster, like, give them what you want, you haven't earned. In my mind, when you're new to it, which you are not, like, you have a devoted listening base, but when you're brand new, you don't have the permission yet from your listeners to go off on tangents to talk about what you and your co host did over the weekend. Like, you know, unless you're a celebrity or you've earned that because you've already, you've been at it for, for months or years or whatever, get to the stuff that you've promised your listeners. And this is what we would just hammer and hammer and hammer with these podcasters. And I think it did make a difference after a while. I think you have earned that capability. Like, you know, there are certain shows, like crime writers on, where, I mean, they spend seven to 10 minutes talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the podcast they're about to review. But I, they're like characters in my life. Like, I have a parasocial relationship with them. I'm like, it's fine. I want to hear what you did over the weekend. But I'm not that way with a new podcaster. And so anyway, I was just going to say, to your point, no.

And I think that's so true in my mind, like, and in our business, in the way that we've done it is we say, really, you, you don't earn the right with binge listeners, with valuable listeners who are willing to binge on your show, be there for every episode, not skip them. You don't earn that till you hit 25 episodes or more, because they get burned too often by the shows that quit.

Yes, yes, that is precisely. Precisely right. And exactly my point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you on that. And then the producer side of things, this is my perspective on it, and I'd love your thoughts about it because you've talked to a lot more of them. I have trouble having conversations with them. They don't. When I reach out to the networks to talk to the show, they want to promote the host, but the host knows nothing about what goes on behind the scenes.

Yes.

And I can't, you know, and they don't want their producers to come first and foremost. So, like, they are these. They're squeezed out. Right. They're squeezed out of getting publicity for the fact that they are a part of the show. And so, you know, and they're afraid to say something about the show. But the problem with that is, is that those producers aren't out there interacting with the rest of us in the podcasting industry and the independent side the way that they should. So what they don't know is hurting them. And there's some significant technical things that they're not learning that they're not getting.

Yeah. And I think. I mean, I would hope that that is starting to change a little bit. That just sort of with the rockiness that we've had in the industry. And also there has been this movement of, like, podcasters getting, sorry, producers. Getting promoted to be the host. I've interviewed a number of those people. I'd love to put together a story about that, because I think it really shows, like, when a host is being generous with their producer and making them part of the podcast. Like, I think listeners really enjoy that. But to your point, I think that producers have all of this interesting knowledge that isn't getting out there either. And that's part of what I'm trying to do, is to help, you know, their knowledge get out into the public domain so that people understand how valuable they are and so people who are hiring them understand their worth. So, yeah, that's. I mean, I. I really feel when I'm thinking about who am I writing for, it's for that person. It's for the producer, but it's also for the sound engineer. It's also for the host. I mean, it's also for. But that's when I'm. You know, when you start a podcast, for example, you're always thinking, like, who is my, like, listener? Of course, other people join. That's great. You know, the more the merrier. But, like, you have to have a listener in mind. And so for me, I have to have a reader in mind. And for me, that's the producer.

Well, and what we're finding is that we pick up the pieces for a lot of producers who didn't learn enough about the podcasting industry because they came from sound engineering or they came from the media side of it, and they're used to that production side of, like, making a great show.

Yeah, yeah.

But the technical part of the podcasting industry, they thought, oh, this is nothing. I'll learn it. But they didn't. They miss the technical stuff that they don't know. Like.

Yes.

Because a lot of the independent podcasters, they've had to. They figured out the hard way they're not going to get listeners if they don't title their shows.

Right.

If they didn't get themselves on all the apps.

Yeah. So tell me about that. I'd love to hear, like, more stories about these producers who miss that technical stuff. Like what? They must get themselves into terrible situations where people do. So tell me about that.

Tom and I tend to. Tom Hazard is my partner and husband. And potatoes with me.

Yes, Potatoes.

Yeah. Owns it with me. We do a weekly show for our clients. So. And then we air it, we live stream it so, like, anyone could watch it. And it's called feed your brand. And in feature brand, we cover a lot of these technical things because we have a lot of do it yourself podcasters who are independent producing their own shows. We have, obviously, a production company, and we're hidden as the largest in the world. We produced over 1300 shows in the.

World of our business. Oh, my gosh.

What? Yeah.

No, Shut the front door. That's crazy.

So we've seen these patterns of things that happen that are like, okay, well, if you're hosted on this host, and I'm not going to name them. Right. If you're hosted on this host, they're likely to have these three problems to their show. And when we correct those technical problems, their show all of a sudden gets listeners. And there's. So there's silly things like that, but we find that is the case. So we were doing a show about the hidden reason reasons your listeners can't reach out to you. And I don't think that's the title of it is something else. But the. Basically the. The reasons your listeners cannot reach you.

Yeah.

And we went and said, look, this isn't a problem. This isn't just a problem for the independent novice podcaster who's not tech savvy. This is a problem for big industry.

Across the industry. Yes.

So we were talking about. Went through a bunch of shows, but some of them were like, the Daily Show. The Daily Show's website link links to their production company, Omni, and their hosting company, Omni?

Really? The Daily. Like the New York Times daily.

No, the Daily Show. Like Comedy Central. The Daily Show.

Oh, the Daily Show. I'm like, wait, the Daily show podcast.

Doesn'T link to the Daily Show's website?

That's totally nuts. What? I don't understand that. Yeah, that's.

And there's no email address. Hidden email address, because Omni doesn't publish it. And so, like, these, like, they chose this host thinking, oh, we're gonna get professional assistance that help. And they're harming them. They're harming the exposure of the show. Someone's out there and very brain jacket. Right. And the producer doesn't know that. They don't. Because they are not podcast producers to begin with over there. They come from the media side first. And they think we hired this hosting company because they know what they're doing.

Yes. That is super brain dead. I'm kind of shocked. And meanwhile, there's probably no easy way to let them know that this is happening.

There's like, there's no phone number, there's no email. There's no.

Nothing that they can send to that.

Go, hey, guys, did you know this? Like, but this is the kind of stuff where if you're small, it really hurts you.

Right? And it's. It's an easy. But it's such an easy fix. Also, like, I mean, I've just been hearing a lot of people talk about how important it is for podcasters to have newsletters. Like, that's so obvious. Like, why isn't. You know, I mean, there's still people who aren't thinking that way. Of course, it's a little bit of added work, but if you get into a routine, it's really not, like, take the best quote from the show you just recorded. And there are ways to get around, like, creating more work for yourself. But yeah, it is fascinating. There's so many easy things that people.

It's not just that. It's like, so all of the shows that were under the agreement that the Obamas did, every single one of them had the same problem, and they have a worse problem because they're only on Spotify, and so they have like a 400 character description. Like, so there's no search engine optimization happening. So it's hard to find the shows, you know, they get in their own restrictive problems by the choices that are made at a corporate level for some of these shows or network level for some of these shows. Well, yeah, every show has the problem.

Yeah. And that was such a. I mean, I have to say, the whole Spotify thing is just such a train wreck.

Oh, I know you and I agree. So let's talk a little bit about, like, I, you know, your perspective on this. And so I really want you to talk about a little bit about the spotification of pod, you know, what they've done to podcasting in general. Oh, what are your thoughts on that?

So where do I start? I feel like it's been kind of bananas what's happened over there at Spotify. First of all, I know that what Spotify wanted to do was to take podcasts in house so they wouldn't have to be in an RSS feed so that they could get more demographic info from the people who are listening that they could sell to advertisers. And to me, listen, I don't care what you call a podcast, but I have. I really believe in, like, the free. The free enterprise of podcasting. And of course, like, put some stuff behind a paywall. Like, you need to make money. You're a creator for sure. But once we start taking podcasts out of the free community of podcast content, I think it really makes it hard for newer podcasters to get any traction. And that is what has happened to so many podcasters who, you know, either just decided to produce on the Spotify platform or were acquired by Spotify to put all of these incredible shows. Some of them were small, many of them were large behind a paywall. Just really damaged those shows. And I think, you know, the reason why you saw Michelle Obama's podcast, eventually they did. I think. I think they realized on that one, like, she's not getting as many listeners as she could have. And they ended up suddenly, all of a sudden, okay, this podcast is now going to be on every platform. Was. Because according to my sources, the podcast was t. And the same thing happened with the Obama Springsteen podcast and a lot. And the Megan Markle.

And it was actually a great podcast. The Springsteen podcast was really good. Like a listening experience.

I didn't actually listen to it.

No, it was from a listening experience. Springsteen is great. Like, you know, and it was fun. It was interesting. What. Whatever your politics are aside, it's just like, the Boss is cool.

Yeah.

You know, so it was. But it was not doing what it's supposed to. I Actually almost wrote an article and I just didn't publish it because it just. I didn't know if it was true or not. And I didn't. It was my view of it. But on Meghan Markle's behind the Scenes, what I could see were numbers that were like. It started out at a gate at an unusual number and in an unusual place in the marketplace. And the only time I ever see that happen in other parts of the podcasting world is when somebody produces their numbers.

Oh, wow.

And so they bought listeners and Spotify and Iheart had been sort of.

Iheart had definitely been down, but I heard definitely.

Yeah, definitely. I heart. This is why the shows don't last. Right. Like they. One season and they're done. Right. Because they can't make it. But they were juicing the numbers of her show to get the advertisers in. So they were like pre doing it and they were launching them on these apps. So what would happen was, is if you had used any of the apps you would seen, like you're getting a preview of this show, of this podcast, click here and listen. And they were using them as actual listener numbers.

And that's not an engaged listener. Far from it.

No.

Yeah, exactly. And that's just.

Well, because their measurements at Spotify are streams, so the most they ever measure is one minute of listening. That's the most any of their statistics give you back is one minute of listening. So there's no listen through, there's no dis statistics on that.

Yeah. And your listener numbers, quote unquote, are going to fall off of a cliff if you actually, you know, once at a certain point, you're just juicing them up for the advertisers. But that person, that podcaster, famous or not, is not getting actual. An engaged audience of loyal listeners who will list continue to listen to them. So it just. The whole. Wouldn't you rather have. It's just like people who buy followers on social media websites, like those are not real. Wouldn't you rather have.

I'd have an audience that will follow.

You wherever you go. Like, those people aren't going to follow you when you go to your next platform because they couldn't care less.

Right.

And so this is what I think that they should. Spotify didn't keep investing. So if you were going to do that in the pre sale of the show to try to convince the advertisers to advertise on it, then you needed to keep selling that minimum level of listenership to every episode that follows. On. So what happened was is it would drop week over week over week because only the debut had the listener boost.

Yes. And the other side of that is that of course, Daniel Ek, the CEO of Spotify, had paid hundreds of millions of dollars for these deals to get these big name podcasters or to purchase Gimlet. And so when you can't keep those, when you. When those numbers are fake numbers and the advertisers aren't going to stick around, then you're left. Spotify was left sort of, wow, we've made this gigantic investment. It's not actually paying off in the long term. And who, of course, loses in that scenario? Not Daniel Ek, it's the people who are making those shows, are working on those shows who are gonna get laid on.

And the listeners.

And the listeners lose. Oh, 100%. Yes. I should have said that first. Thank you.

Yeah, but it's both. You're right. Absolutely. All those great producers behind the scene. I was really glad to see that Meghan Markle's producer went on to do something else and is doing something because she deserves it, or I think it's a she.

So, anyway, yeah, and I think Meghan Markle is now restarting her podcast at Lemonada. Maybe, I feel like, somewhere else. I don't know. I hopefully, you know, of course, wish everyone the best of luck. But I would just say that, like, what's really troubling to me is that the financial models don't work when you're juicing your numbers, especially if you're a larger organization. The economics are never going to work out. And then what happens is the people that get screwed are the people who are doing the actual work. And that's like the tragedy of this, of what's gone on, it also has damaged, I think, our industry even further because it perpetuates this sense that podcasting is broken, that, oh, well, flying high. That turned out it was a house of cards. Well, it was only a house of cards because folks like Spotify made stupid bets that didn't pay off. It's not because podcasting is broken.

So that's exactly the analogy that I see is we saw that same thing happening in the 3D print industry, that exact same model, because in the time when we started our podcast, it was getting like this overheated, like hype that was going on is like, you know, print the future and all that was going on in it. And then the money dropped off because they had overinvested and overheated. I think it'll happen in AI too, right now. And so you see this over investment and overvaluation that cannot keep up with the return. And so I blame the purchase of anchor. That is my perspective from inside the industry.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you tell me about that.

If you buy a hosting company that really didn't have great technology or great anything, they were just. They had knocked off everybody else's stuff in terms of, like, what they offered there. And they got $14 million in at the beginning of the year from an investment group, which most of us in the podcasting industry couldn't get any investment because everybody was like, not sure about this podcasting thing. So were like, so we bootstrapped it, right? Like that's what everybody else in it did it. But they got $14 million from VC and they spent every dime of it saying, we got advertisers for you. And they just paid that $14 million to base. Advertise their own show, their own stuff, and offered a guarantee.

Yes. And those VCs want a guarantee and they want an exit. Right.

But they promise the podcasters, if you signed up with us as a user, then we'll give you advertising dollars and a minimum guarantee per year. And so they gave them a minimum amount. Then they said, and we're bringing in more and more advertisers and we're going to exceed this, so don't worry about it. But then by the end of the year, they sold for 140 million, like 10x, right. And they sell for that much money to Spotify. And Spotify said, we're not guaranteeing anyone anything going forward. And they canceled all the deals when their terms were up.

I remember when that happened.

Yeah, right. And all those podcasters were like, that was their only income. Their minimum amount was the only income because they never put an ad on their show, Never put a real ad on their show. And so. And you're never gonna make that much money when you get like little percentage of a percentage of a percentage off of streaming ads on the front of your show.

Right.

And so they quit. They like left anchor, left Spotify, and the shows all died. And so they caused a huge pod fade in the industry. Our statistics went, it got 15% wor in six months from the time that deal happened to the expiration announcement of the expiration of all of those minimum guarantee deals.

I mean, it's really fascinating. Have you spoken to some of those podcasters who were in that situation and where they thought that they were getting one thing and then Spotify Acquired them. And have you spoken to people? And I'm curious what you've heard about that experience. Like, how is that they left podcasting? Are they trying something different? Like, I'm curious, you know, so that's so interesting.

Like here you are flipping the question around on me.

I know, I'm sorry, I just, I'm interested in you.

We'll like, we'll, we'll ask each other. It's like a joint interview here. I love it. It's like a two sided. But yes, I mean we did. So what we had was a lot of people so disenfranchised with podcasting that they were never going to come back. And so I've talked to many of those people who said, oh, I had a podcast, it was on anchor and I'm never going to do one again. And then they'll be like, it's starting right now where they're like, like, maybe I really did like my podcast. And so they've gotten enough distance from it. So we've seen a lot of them sort of restart their show this year and so in the last six months. So I think that that, that sort of, that feeling that they have and sort of that frustration with it was. It's not that the industry's broken, it's just that what happened there happened. And so maybe it took all the like latest news about Spotify for them to really not identify it to their show and the podcasting industry in general.

I mean, I'm glad to hear that people, that your sense is that people have come back. One thing I think about a lot is just how many people who did have great content. Of course, let me just say I think there are some podcasts that probably shouldn't exist. And if those people leave the industry, it's, I mean, maybe they shouldn't be saying this on your show. And we're. And if you're out there and you're a podcaster and you're really passionate and so excited, you've got something to say. Like, I am so supportive. But I do think sometimes, you know, if someone is just gonna, isn't in it for the right reasons, not to sound like I'm on a reality show, maybe it's a good, you know, you don't need to make a podcast right now. Everyone has to do.

It's like our approach to podcasting is that it's not for everyone. And I think that's where we've done a disservice. Like I was sitting at a pod fest right before the pandemic. Listening to the head of Libsyn say, everybody should start a show and, like, look how easy it is. And, you know, you could just get started. And this is why your entire network has. Has hundreds of thousands of failed shows that never made it past three episodes.

Right, right.

Why your hosting platform has that kind of rate? My hosting platform has an 80% success rate, but it's not because we took everybody.

Right.

Like, there's, like, we were. You don't come to us because you're going to get a free show. You're not going to get free on our platform. You don't come to us because you're not committed to producing a show. Like, we're hammering it into you.

Yeah.

And you're not gonna find us if you're not a serious podcaster. So we were setting them up for success, not setting them up for failure.

Yeah.

And that perspective's different.

Have you ever had to counsel someone around, I mean, maybe not stopping podcasting, but, like, whether or not their show, you know, was. Hate to say, like, worth making? Because if someone's having fun and they're enjoying it, it's worth making, period. End of story. When I wonder.

Yes. I mean, we don't always get a choice when they just use our software.

Right.

They're. You're using our software. They're choosing it, they're publishing it. And.

Right. If they show up to our coaching call.

If they show up to our coaching call, we're going to advise you. Right. But they don't always. It's like, how many people really would take advantage of that listener feedback? Most people do not want to hear it, so they don't actually.

So actually, when I mentioned earlier that I was hired to sort of help, you know, to think through podcasts with people who were just starting out and. And try to help make their show as good as possible. It was this funny thing where there were certain people. So it was all done on a Discord server, and there were some people. It was kind of a free service to the people who were hosting their show with this particular company. And they would. There were some people who would show up and they would submit audio, and then one of us takes the audio, we listen, we give them feedback, and we did a really detailed response. Like, we had a very structured way that we would give them feedback on many different levels. And some people, you do that once, and you would never hear from them again. They would never ask you a question again. They would just, like, you'd never see them in the discord. And there could have been lots of reasons for it, but, like, you could sort of tell that, like, some people just couldn't handle the feedback because the person who hired us said, like, be honest. Like, don't be mean, but be honest. So we weren't holding back. And then there were some people who were. Became sort of addicted to that feedback and were like, here's more. Like, here's an. And those were the people who I. Who got. They got a lot out of it. I mean, I feel like they were getting a great deal because we were all so passionate. That's why he hired us. We would go above and beyond in trying to help them, give them more resources, like, all of that. So it wasn't just negative, but it does take a certain person with a certain mindset to say, I don't know everything. And really listening to that, the feedback is going to actually, in the long run, help me get better. It's very hard to feel like you've worked so hard on this podcast. Maybe you've already been doing it for a year, and now you're getting, you know, someone's like, insulting your baby. And so the people there were people who I'm still friends with, honestly, who I met on that discord, who were clients, quote unquote, of ours, who I think are now just doing amazing, incredible work. And I'm so proud of that and happy for them. But it does require, I mean, I mean, the whole, like, low barrier to entry thing is true, but there isn't a low barrier to entry, to being successful. And you have to actually really put everything you have into it and be okay with hearing back. Maybe this thing isn't working, or maybe I can try to tweak it, you know, And I'm sure that that's a lot of the conversations that you were having, too.

Well, I think that. So for. For independent podcasts, a little bit different than network shows. Right? I mean, of course, network shows need to know and they. They honestly don't get the feedback they should about the show. Yes. And so that's where I. I do feel like that is a huge miss in the network side of things. It's like if the advertise, if there's an advertising flaw in this, there's like, as you call it in the industry, hair on the deal because of the way the show is. You could fix it at the beginning. And so that's what we, like, we talk to when we bring somebody into, set up a show and launch a show with us. Us, we have so many barriers in the sales process of doing that that we won't get the people who aren't coachable. Now, it still happens. We have people who we call it. They're. They're in permanent potential, but the show never gets off the ground, so they're not out there putting out potential. Yeah, that's what we call it. It's basically like, they won't go missing in action from it. Right. Like, it never gets off the ground. They're always perfecting it or always, you know, or just, like, go dark. And so, you know, that happens. But the ones that are coachable are headed into our system because of how we do our sales process. Just to make sure, though, that they're really going to be ready for that. And there are a few things that we are always coaching them on that is really hard to say to people. Like, get your picture off of your cover art. Like how. I bet you. How many times did you guys say that to people? Like, change your cover art? And they don't want to hear it because some branding expert somewhere told them that that's what you do to get your message out there. But then that's not what works in the podcasting industry. And that's what our job is. It's like, look, you tell me you want advertisers, and if you want advertisers, this is what you have to be willing to do.

Yeah.

And then what we do is we also say to them, I get that that's what you would like to have happen. Your likelihood of it occurring is less than 1 to 2% in the industry. You're less of being successful enough at it to make it worth your while, the time.

Yeah.

And so if that's the case, then let's build some of these other layers into it so I can help you make some money.

Yeah. Yeah. So any. Sorry. Yeah, I didn't want to. No, go ahead.

So that's just like. And if they're open to that, then it works, then I can get them to stick with it. But if they're not, then it. They will quit. And they will quit because they set their own metric and they won't meet it and they'll quit on their own because of it. It.

Yeah. Sad to see that happening. Do you have. I am also. I've been noticing and actually wrote. I interviewed someone who was producing a podcast. Like, she doesn't need to actually monetize the podcast, but she's. I feel like these are, like, the unsung heroes of podcasting, people who have a business. I mean, this is sort of actually.

Like you 90 have a business of our business. Is that. Are those people.

Right.

That's what I know best.

Right, right. And I interviewed someone like that where her business was not the podcast, but it was where she was establishing her expertise and bringing. Finding new clients and bringing in new business. Like, I don't know if it's that it's not like sexy enough or something for headlines, but, you know, I was really thrilled to be able to interview someone like that and to give them some airtime because that's a huge financial engine of podcasting that we don't really think about being a financial. Well, people like me and people in, say, big podcasting don't think about because they're not the ones who are. Who have millions of listeners, and they're not the ones who are monetizing those millions of listeners. They have a more engaged, interested audience. They're using it as a sales tool, in a sense, like a real estate agent that has a podcast or something like that. And I just think that that's like, there's so many stories about people who are being successful with that, and I don't feel like that's made it into the mainstream podcast conversation.

Well, I mean, if the industry is full of. Of. I think the last check we did was like 2.2 or 2.3 headed into 2.3 million shows that have ever launched. Now, most of them are like, you know, made it one or two episodes. Like, you know, there's that. But there's only about 380,000 regularly publishing. And if you're making money off your show and you're. Then you must regularly publish. So there's not any. Going to be any shows in that other half, that other part of it that is making anyone real money. Yes, yes, it's maybe making Spotify real money because every time somebody streams one, they make ad dollars, but the host doesn't make anything.

Right, Right. Right. So.

Or they, you know, another example.

Right, they have 2 million shows. So they can say, I have 2 million shows on, you know, 2 million podcasts on YouTube Music and 2 million podcasts on Apple. And it gets people to keep using their devices to their iPhones. So they reorder one next year. Right. Like, so this is where they're all making money off the podcasters work. But those podcasters are not making a dime off of their past content of this stuff. They quit. But the ones who are currently publishing are making money somehow or they wouldn't keep doing it.

Yeah. Do you feel that the situation is better on YouTube, that podcasters who have their shows on YouTube, that YouTube is helping creators make money or not? I'm not.

Yet.

This is an area I haven't really dug into. And I'm just curious, as someone with a video podcast, like. Or a video version of your podcast. I don't know how. What the. What. How.

So we've had the terms you use. Yeah. So we've had video casting. Right. So our clients have always been able to do video since 20.

From the start.

Yeah. Oh, wow. From the beginning. Yeah. Well, we wanted to have a joint. We wanted to do a video RSS feed. We were unable to get enough podcasters to make it worth the bandwidth and the equipment and the server space to do it. But we have the system built into our whole system. System. So the. But YouTube was just so powerful that we instead then developed YouTube services, because that's what people would rather have than publishing video. You have to. You publish video on Spotify. No one watches it. Like, you make zero dollars.

Yeah.

I don't even know where to.

I've never. I guess I've never tried, but I don't even know where the video.

You have to flip into it. Like, you have to flip into the video. But people are listeners on Spotify because it's a music platform first.

They're not watching pictures first. Right, right.

So I expect that YouTube is going to work better, but right now it's. They still don't get it.

Yeah.

They still don't understand it. Now, some of the things they've done work beautifully. Like, I launched my show as a video chant, you know, playlist on YouTube years ago, and they made it really easy for me to convert that into a podcast. And when ads run on it, if I monetize my channel, which I just don't, because that's. It's our business. I don't want to have ads interrupting my. You know.

Right, right.

That are purposeful. So I. But when I converted it to the podcast, they made it easy. Now, if you throw your RSS feed in there and go like the other way, into podcast, into YouTube, it's terrible, actually. You end up with, like a duplicate. You get your RSS feed, you get your channel. Like, so if you didn't do it right, and they don't tell you that, I don't think they even realize it over at YouTube yet. That that's what it like looks. Looks like. It looks weird. But that has.

You should Be, you should be giving speeches that you, you should be like, I don't tell them I know I'm.

Too busy running my business and growing.

Which is great. Which is great. Good problem to have. You're too busy in the future.

Yeah. And then like the whole AI thing, right. They've caused a huge problem at Apple and at YouTube by offering AI transcripts which they don't even realize what has happened. And like everybody who wasn't using the transcript script function, but most of us seasoned videocasters, we're putting in SRT files, which is the synchronized timing files that synchronize the caption to the what's being said on the video.

Right, Right.

So they synchronize the two things, but.

They have an auto. You're saying they have an auto. Yeah, I've seen.

But it spells everything wrong.

Yeah. And it's not timed. You're right. It's not timed correctly.

It's not timed correctly. It doesn't do it right. And you'll spend, spend hours editing it because you have to do it from.

Within because it's going to be automatic. So you, so you have to go in there. You have no choice if you want it to be to actually work properly. Right. A lot of extra work for people.

So much extra work. So like the reality of like Apple is that it's still. Can you, you can't do it through your RSS feed, so you have to go into your Apple connect, you have to load up the transcript that you've created. So we, we have edited over 50,000 episodes total in the course of our company that came from an AI transcript first.

Wow.

Because we've had AI transcripts since 2018. So you do that. We have the AI first and then we have a whole team of people who will spend for a 30 minute show will spend probably four hours editing it. And because they also edit it again on the video and again to make sure the timings are right. Like they, they do it again and again in all those places to make sure of the corrections are spread around through the different parts of it. And so it takes a lot of time and energy to get it correct. So at this point in time I think that what's going to happen is that because of these AI transcripts that Apple has put out, you can load one up in there. No one's ever, they're going to turn the sound off and read the captions if that's what they want to do because the timing will be such a brain disconnect. That they won't be able to function with it or if you're going to just leave the auto on and it's such a bad like spelling errors and all those things, at some point we're going to get desensitized to it and we're not going to care as content creators, we're not going to care that it's wrong. And that's terrible because if you spell my name wrong, how are you going to follow me on Instagram?

Right. And also, I mean for the people who need to read, who are, you know, who can't hear, who want to enjoy a podcast like you want them to have as great of an experience as anyone else, you want them to get as much out of it as possible. So that's really.

So I think though that YouTube can figure it out because they're owned by Google and Google is, if not nothing else, a text based system.

Right? Yes, yes.

So they should get it. But what they're going to need to do, and I really hope somebody listens to this show right now, but I think we're, we are poised to be that hosting purchase for a company that wants to care about the tech. Tech side of things because our clients make more traffic, get more traffic, get more listeners, get more business, make more money off their show from search engine optimization, both in the podcasting platform and everywhere else on the Internet. So they search Engine optimize for YouTube and for Google and within the apps. That's what we specialize in because it's that digital marketing side of podcasting.

Yeah.

The money's made, right?

Yeah.

And anyone who's in the industry. So one of our first big publication groups is the Hearst. That was one of our very first early clients. And we would, yeah, we produced a lot of Hearst publications over the years. Some of them quit their shows and other things, but it was the connection to their articles where they would embed the podcast within the articles. But not just that, they would embed links into the articles of stuff that you should buy that were mentioned on the show. And that's where they really make their money. They do not make it off of as you know, as a writer because I wrote for Inc. Magazine for four years. Right. I don't think I made a couple hundred bucks a month was like my best.

Oh yeah.

You know what I mean? No, you don't make money off.

No one goes into writing or journalism to make money, that's for sure.

Right. So the writers aren't making money. So. And if they're paying them even that amount of money, then they better be making a lot more in advertising somewhere. And so that's where I really learned that this model of making sure that your, your links are working in your transcripts and your blogs are working. And so yeah, if you don't do that, you're not making money in podcasting.

Right. Wow. This is like there's so much that I have not since I, my podcast ended and I left that company. I've just watched things become much more multi layered. I mean as you're talking about all of this, I'm sort of thinking in my head, I hate to admit this, but sort of like, wow, I really avoided having to figure out a lot of stuff.

Right.

You know, like, I mean that's the.

Case of what you should do. And so I think that when we look at podcasting as an audio only thing, you're going to fail.

Right.

Or if you looked at it as a video only thing, you're going to fail. Right. There's more to it than that. And those that don't have their businesses fleshed out underneath it, whether it's the network of how they make money off of advertising, that's totally fine if that's what the business is. But that's where I think, you know, like think about Meghan Markle's business. She's got no business under there except making the celebrity go out more. So if they fail at getting her name out more and bringing the value of that name up, then they failed at providing value from that money. Right. That was spent. Spotify got some by being associated with her.

Right.

Like that's why they bought Joe Rogan.

Like I mean headlines. Yeah.

Face it, right? They, he, yes, he makes a lot of money. He makes the most money in the industry off of ad dollars and everything. But he made more money off his YouTube and they cut him off from that. So they had to compensate him for it.

Right.

And now he's back to doing it. He knows the values there.

That's right. And is he. Yeah. So I just, I saw that he's back on YouTube like and that was. I think he still has that deal with Spotify, but he is. They're allowing him to do both.

Yeah. Am I right about negotiated his new deal?

Yeah, his. He didn't leave Spot, he renegotiated it. Am I right about this? But he's.

They're now video is non exclusive just.

That they allow same thing that they allowed a lot of their shows to do, but not in time for many of Them to have to go under, which, you know.

Right, exactly.

Not gonna go under. But there were so many shows because of that.

Yeah, he used to. They used to say. And he said this on his show, so I don't remember which episode it was in. And I keep trying to, like, figure it out so I can actually quote it accurately. But he had 11 mil. He was known for having 11 million listeners. There were lots of articles written about it in the, like, late 2019 timeframe, early 2020, that he had about 11 million listeners. And when he struck the deal with Spotify, that was about where he was. But the reality is this 2.2 million of them were podcast listeners. And if you know anything about podcasts, you know that Apple has the lion's share of that number. Number. Even today, I can tell you across. And I have some shows that are higher on Spotify than others, but it doesn't eke above 12% at the highest. So if 80% or more, and likely more of that 2.2 million was on Apple, and now you're only on Spotify, listeners have to come over, and that's what Spotify was hoping for, that they could grab those 2.2 million and head them to buying a subscription on. On Spotify.

Yeah, I was. I don't know how familiar you are with the Gimlet shows that they. Yeah, that's. That Spotify, for anyone who doesn't know, acquired this narrative podcasting production shop, Gimlet. And so there's a show that Gimlet produced called Heavyweight, and it's a. I don't know. Are you familiar with Heavyweight at all?

Yeah, but our audience may not be, but I am.

Yeah. Well, anyway, it doesn't really matter too much. It's a show where the host goes on sort of a journey with someone who wants to go back to a time in their life when sort of everything changed or when they feel maybe they made the wrong decision and they sort of go and re. You know, try to try to reconcile with that in some way. So anyway, early days, before I even wrote about podcasting, they. I was. A story of mine was the subject for one of the episodes of that show. And it was very bizarre to have a show that had been on all the platforms. Right. Like. Which was such a joy for me because there were so many people who. Who got in touch with me after that episode was released, and to. Then. Then there was this weird period where my show, like, not my show, but my episode of their show could only be listened to on Spotify. And I would still have people come to me and say, I can't find the show. Like I, I want to listen to and I can't find it. And I'd have to say, well, you know, you gotta be on Spotify to listen to it. And now, of course, Heavyweight was one of those shows so popular, one of the most popular podcasts, I think, that has, in the sort of modern post serial area that really cut through the noise. And now they're looking for another home because Spotify doesn't even know how to. It's like they've just kind of given up. And so I'm in touch with all of those people who make Heavyweight. And, you know, I, I still am.

Optimistic to see, and this is my perspective, but I have yet to see a podcast that if they do it right, like, if they set everything up right and they have the right team underneath them, they can't make more money on their own than they could on a network. So when somebody. And I've reviewed a few contracts with people and I'm like, you shouldn't sign this. You're going to be so unhappy in a couple of years or even in six months.

Do they take your advice?

No, a lot of times they don't.

Because they, yes, it's an ego stroke.

To be asked by a network. Right. And so, you know, that's what it is. And so this is the same thing. It's like when you're out there sharing your show and you share your Spotify link because you want to be, say, hey, I'm on Spotify. Like it's a big deal. That's what you. That, that's that ego thing that you're pushing out there on social media. Only 10% of the people who even see your post have Spotify and will listen to it there.

Exactly, exactly.

So then what happens with this is what, what is Us seasoned listeners, we go, oh, that show's not gonna last. They're doing it wrong. Right? Like, that's what we say in the back of our minds. And so we don't even, like, we won't even give your showtime a day unless you make it past the 25 episodes because we know you're doing something wrong.

Yes, yes. That's so smart. You're so smart to take that approach, for sure.

Well, sky, we've gone over the time you allocated for me, and I'm so grateful for that. But I, you know, I want to say, say with your newsletter, the Squeeze, which is really fabulous, you're getting inside some of these networks and other things. Our listeners out there have podcasts, they have shows. They're maybe working with producers. What are you looking for that we could bring you?

What are producers. Say that one more time. Could you just repeat the question? Yeah, sure. And they can edit this.

Edit this. That's okay. I'll do it again. Everybody do it again.

Yeah.

So you have the fabulous newsletter, the Squeeze, and you're covering things like what's going on inside some of the radio networks that have podcasts and. And some of the big networks, like, you know, what's happening at the magazines that own podcast networks. Right. And what's going on behind the scenes there. What are you looking for that maybe some of our listeners who might have the inside scoop could bring you.

Oh, I love that question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that question.

Yeah, let's be be harrow for you, like, help a reporter out.

Oh, harrow. Yes.

What do you need?

I. I did PR for many, many years, and I used to get the Haro emails. That's Larry Flash from the past for me. So I think. Well, one thing I'm really. Well, this really dovetails with what you guys think about, but I am fascinated with any success stories of independent podcasters that are maybe, you know, off the beaten path. Like, maybe you're in a really unusual niche, but you've been successful at it. Because I think that we need those examples out there. And again, like those. There are many of these stories that should be in the headlines, should be in the conversation about mainstream podcasting, and they're not. So I'm interested in that. I'm interested in independent podcasters also, I would say, who are doing narrative podcasting and making money. I would love to have examples of podcasters, independent shows that are doing that kind of work and are figuring out how to make it work for them financially. I think that there are. Are too many examples out there of big companies canceling those shows right now and saying, oh, these don't work. And so that becomes the headline is like, narrative podcasting doesn't work. And I just fundamentally think that they're wrong. And I could go in anything Audible.

Tells you that it's wrong. Right? Like, people like to listen to stories. There's no question about it.

Exactly. It's so funny. Someone else was saying that to me the other day, like, why don't we just all release our narrative podcasts on audible? Then people will listen to them. And no one is questioning whether that is an industry that's worth Paying. Paying for whether it's worth. So anyway, I am thirsting for those kinds of examples. And in fact, if there is someone who's released their podcast on Audible and so there's that model, like, I'm interested in that too. I don't know if I would write like a trend story or write it about one particular show, but I'd love to have those examples. I also, I tend to write just because of what I do and the perspective that I'm coming from. I tend to write a lot of like, kind of sad story. Like not. They are a little sad, messed up, you know, like, here's another messed up thing that's going on in podcasting. Right. And so, like, for me personally, it would be great to have, you know, the opportunity to write about something that's going really well. So, yeah, I think that would be. And then of course, like, if there's anything that you're seeing as a podcaster in the industry that might be outside of yourself, but that you're seeing something work or not work, like, shoot me an email, find me, you know, DM me. Like, like, I'm interested in that. I'm interested in gossip. I know that's like, maybe we're not supposed to say it, but like, in my mind, gossip is what actually often leads to, you know, really meaningful stories that I can tell. You know, obviously.

Well, it's always like what's breaking the gossip is really at the, at that breaking edge of things.

Yeah. And those are important stories. And so, yeah, I mean, I. Anything along those lines, I'm. I'm all ears. And please reach out.

Out. Well, we will have all the ways you can connect with SkyPillsbury links to the squeeze, because then definitely want them to find that. We'll have that in the blog post for this episode@podcasters united.org and then I, right after the break, I'm going to come back and talk a little bit about what I thought of my conversation today with Sky.

We hit on so many different subjects. Like, I know we just jumped around a little bit around the place, but there was so much that I wanted to talk to her about. I hope you got a lot out of the conversation. I know it was a longer interview than we normally do, and I'm so gracious that she was hanging out for all of that. I mean, the thing about it is, is that when you have an expert and you have an opportunity to interview an expert, like I did here with sky, you want to take advantage of the things you want to know that is really what all of you just benefited from. If you want to know where the industry is going to go, take it from someone who's already farther along than you and let them be your guide. What I find so often when we get an expert on our show, we fall into these patterns of how we do our show, and I think that's a mistake, and that's why I broke it for you here. Obviously, I could have asked her about her podcast, but that was a long time ago and that's not as valuable as the information she has right now. So I was really so excited that she was open and honest and just the way she is in her newsletters, which you're going to want to read. So I'm going to have a link for it in the podcast episode in the Show Notes, as we call them in the industry, right@podcastersunited.org, we'll have the Show Notes there for that. I really think that there's going to be a lot of changes in this industry in the next year, and I am airing this right at the end of 2024, which I don't usually anchor it in time for those of you who know the show, but I'm saying this because I think in 2025 there's going to be a lot of changes. We are definitely going to have some changes on this show, but I think Sky's alluding to this sort of undervaluing of really good podcasts and undervaluing of podcast producers and what they bring to the table on that is really affecting the quality of the industry as a whole. And so when some of us do a really great job here at being better producers, then we have a better chance at being heard. And that's really what I want to bring out in the next year. I want to bring out some more of this production model view of things. So she's gotten me thinking of about, and I'm always thinking about changing my podcast. So we recorded this quite a little while ago and I waited till the end of the year here to air it for a reason, and that is because I really wanted you all to get this right at the time. You're gonna see some changes in my show, but I think you're also gonna start to see some changes in the industry too. So be following Skyp Hillsbury. The Squeeze newsletter links are going to be in the blog post for this episode, but they're also in the episode description right here in your app. So. So it's really easy for you to click on that and go and find her newsletter. We're subscribing to absolutely get your own inside track on the podcasting industry, straight from Skye Pillsbury. Thanks everyone for listening. I'll be back next week with my very last interview in the Binge Factor process in the existing format of the show as it is. It'll be my very last interview for the 2024 year, but also for this format of the Binge Factor because I'm going to shift it like I you told you. And then I'll have an episode after that, my final episode of the year to share with you what's coming in the new year and how it's going to change. So thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracie Hazzard and I'll be back next week right here on the Binge Factor.

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